Re: [unschoolingbasics] Adult knowledge? (was Re: when did your kid(s) learn to read?)
Kim Musolff
Ok. I'm just going to ask this question, because it's one of the barriers
for me that keeps me from totally understanding unschooling. I get this...
It also implies that when a child
asks a question they want some kind of "learning" to take place when
maybe they just feel like talking, or putzing about with you and don't
really care about the answer at all.
When my children ask questions, I do think about why they are asking it, and
try to answer accordingly. I think I do a pretty good job judging if they
are really curious about what they have asked, or if they are just trying to
make conversation. And when I do misjudge, they let me know pretty quickly
and I either back off (if I'm getting to deep) or get more detailed (if I
haven't quite answered what they wanted to know).
But what I'm really having a hard time fully grasping is this:
The
first implies a parent has information the child needs and should get
at some point. It puts the parent in the seat of power and does not
allow for joint exploration much.
Why is it wrong to admit that parents have certain information that
children need? I understand that adults don't give children nearly the
credit they deserve on knowing what they want to learn and when they want to
learn it. I completely believe that children are naturally curious beings
who seek out knowledge and love to learn, and that they will continue to be
that way if they are given the constant freedom to do so. And I also
understand that anyone learns, only when they are motivated to do so, or if
it has some meaning to them.
But I know that I, as an adult, know some things that my children do not.
And while some of those things aren't important if, or when, my children
ever decide to learn them (like, Shakespeare, trigonometry, or the history
of Rome), aren't some things necessary for children to know *right now*? What
I really don't understand is why it is wrong of me to impart my knowledge
when it comes to safety, health, or their ability to function (happily) in
society as an adult.
I'm not saying that I know everything and my children do not. For the most
part, my children choose what to learn about and we explore things together
(or they do it alone.) They even teach me things (like how an engine
works!) I don't sit them down and teach them lessons about these things.
It all happens spontaneously, as conversations or situations arise. But in
these situations I do speak to them from experience, and I do feel like it
is my duty as a parent to tell them things like "we don't run out into the
street without looking" or "when it's 102 degrees outside, you need to drink
water or you will get dehydrated." I am an adult, experienced in life, and
there are just some things that I feel like would be neglectful if I did not
reveal to them. How do you get around these things as an unschooler?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for me that keeps me from totally understanding unschooling. I get this...
It also implies that when a child
asks a question they want some kind of "learning" to take place when
maybe they just feel like talking, or putzing about with you and don't
really care about the answer at all.
When my children ask questions, I do think about why they are asking it, and
try to answer accordingly. I think I do a pretty good job judging if they
are really curious about what they have asked, or if they are just trying to
make conversation. And when I do misjudge, they let me know pretty quickly
and I either back off (if I'm getting to deep) or get more detailed (if I
haven't quite answered what they wanted to know).
But what I'm really having a hard time fully grasping is this:
The
first implies a parent has information the child needs and should get
at some point. It puts the parent in the seat of power and does not
allow for joint exploration much.
Why is it wrong to admit that parents have certain information that
children need? I understand that adults don't give children nearly the
credit they deserve on knowing what they want to learn and when they want to
learn it. I completely believe that children are naturally curious beings
who seek out knowledge and love to learn, and that they will continue to be
that way if they are given the constant freedom to do so. And I also
understand that anyone learns, only when they are motivated to do so, or if
it has some meaning to them.
But I know that I, as an adult, know some things that my children do not.
And while some of those things aren't important if, or when, my children
ever decide to learn them (like, Shakespeare, trigonometry, or the history
of Rome), aren't some things necessary for children to know *right now*? What
I really don't understand is why it is wrong of me to impart my knowledge
when it comes to safety, health, or their ability to function (happily) in
society as an adult.
I'm not saying that I know everything and my children do not. For the most
part, my children choose what to learn about and we explore things together
(or they do it alone.) They even teach me things (like how an engine
works!) I don't sit them down and teach them lessons about these things.
It all happens spontaneously, as conversations or situations arise. But in
these situations I do speak to them from experience, and I do feel like it
is my duty as a parent to tell them things like "we don't run out into the
street without looking" or "when it's 102 degrees outside, you need to drink
water or you will get dehydrated." I am an adult, experienced in life, and
there are just some things that I feel like would be neglectful if I did not
reveal to them. How do you get around these things as an unschooler?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 2, 2008, at 8:00 PM, Kim Musolff wrote:
exactly what is making you think this is what people mean.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> TheYou're hearing something that isn't being said - but I'm not sure
> first implies a parent has information the child needs and should get
> at some point. It puts the parent in the seat of power and does not
> allow for joint exploration much.
>
> Why is it wrong to admit that parents have certain information that
> children need?
exactly what is making you think this is what people mean.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 2, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Kim Musolff wrote:
vital "body of knowledge" that educators impose on children (that
most people forget 90% of ;-)
Most parents worry how their kids will get all of that. When the tool
of pushing that information into a child is removed for unschooling,
they still feel that need and seek other avenues that feel
"unschoolish", like looking for teachable moments.
The point is to work on eliminating the need to push in that body of
knowledge rather than seek other ways to get it in.
Unschooled kids *will* acquire a body of knowledge but it will be
specific to who they are and what their interests are.* In a rich
environment they will absorb a lot of stuff that would have been
pushed into them in school (and often promptly forgotten ;-) but it
will be in a context that's meaningful to them. (Jokes for instance :-)
* (And parents shouldn't worry if it looks like they know nothing but
World of Warcraft right now! ;-) The unschooling parent needs to
figure out what they are learning -- perhaps by playing, perhaps
through conversations -- rather than look at what they aren't
learning. It's the child's task to ease the parent's worry. It's up
to the parent to work on eliminating their own worry.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> TheThe poster was talking about school information here. The supposedly
>> first implies a parent has information the child needs and should get
>> at some point. It puts the parent in the seat of power and does not
>> allow for joint exploration much.
>
>
> Why is it wrong to admit that parents have certain information that
> children need?
vital "body of knowledge" that educators impose on children (that
most people forget 90% of ;-)
Most parents worry how their kids will get all of that. When the tool
of pushing that information into a child is removed for unschooling,
they still feel that need and seek other avenues that feel
"unschoolish", like looking for teachable moments.
The point is to work on eliminating the need to push in that body of
knowledge rather than seek other ways to get it in.
Unschooled kids *will* acquire a body of knowledge but it will be
specific to who they are and what their interests are.* In a rich
environment they will absorb a lot of stuff that would have been
pushed into them in school (and often promptly forgotten ;-) but it
will be in a context that's meaningful to them. (Jokes for instance :-)
* (And parents shouldn't worry if it looks like they know nothing but
World of Warcraft right now! ;-) The unschooling parent needs to
figure out what they are learning -- perhaps by playing, perhaps
through conversations -- rather than look at what they aren't
learning. It's the child's task to ease the parent's worry. It's up
to the parent to work on eliminating their own worry.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
barefootmamax4
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
learning things out of context, like who invented the telephone when
you are no where near a telephone,but studying inventors because it's
in the curriculm. The other way, giving information about needing to
drink when hot is probably being given in context,like on a hot day
not in the middle of winter.
I don't get the seat of power thing at all. Just because I have more
experience in some things doesn't give me more power, as there is
always somebody who knows things I don't. I know a lot about horses,
but not nearly as much about fishing as my 9 yr old does. If we have to
call an electrician to fix our light switch does that put him/her in
a "seat of power?" I suppose, since we pay the electrician for their
information it could be, but I'll bet I still know more about horses!
-Kelly
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>get
>
> On Apr 2, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Kim Musolff wrote:
>
> >> The
> >> first implies a parent has information the child needs and should
> >> at some point. It puts the parent in the seat of power and does notI am wondering if this is something like being in school where you are
> >> allow for joint exploration much.
> >
> >
> > Why is it wrong to admit that parents have certain information that
> > children need?
learning things out of context, like who invented the telephone when
you are no where near a telephone,but studying inventors because it's
in the curriculm. The other way, giving information about needing to
drink when hot is probably being given in context,like on a hot day
not in the middle of winter.
I don't get the seat of power thing at all. Just because I have more
experience in some things doesn't give me more power, as there is
always somebody who knows things I don't. I know a lot about horses,
but not nearly as much about fishing as my 9 yr old does. If we have to
call an electrician to fix our light switch does that put him/her in
a "seat of power?" I suppose, since we pay the electrician for their
information it could be, but I'll bet I still know more about horses!
-Kelly
Kim Musolff
I don't get the seat of power thing at all. Just because I have more
experience in some things doesn't give me more power, as there is
always somebody who knows things I don't. I know a lot about horses,
but not nearly as much about fishing as my 9 yr old does. If we have to
call an electrician to fix our light switch does that put him/her in
a "seat of power?" I suppose, since we pay the electrician for their
information it could be, but I'll bet I still know more about horses!
But I'm not saying that I have "power" just because I know something that
they don't. I don't use it to get them to do things just because I feel
like I want to control them or because I need to feel powerful. It's
because I feel like certain information is vital to their happiness and/or
well-being. If I knew more about horses and my son about fishing, I
wouldn't force him to learn about horses. But if my knowledge is that fast
food is not healthy for you, I would try to give them that knowledge,
explaining why fast food is unhealthy. And if they weren't ready to learn
that knowledge yet, I would not let them go to fast food restaurants anyway
until they were ready to learn it--I would just say, "No, McDonald's is not
good for you."
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
experience in some things doesn't give me more power, as there is
always somebody who knows things I don't. I know a lot about horses,
but not nearly as much about fishing as my 9 yr old does. If we have to
call an electrician to fix our light switch does that put him/her in
a "seat of power?" I suppose, since we pay the electrician for their
information it could be, but I'll bet I still know more about horses!
But I'm not saying that I have "power" just because I know something that
they don't. I don't use it to get them to do things just because I feel
like I want to control them or because I need to feel powerful. It's
because I feel like certain information is vital to their happiness and/or
well-being. If I knew more about horses and my son about fishing, I
wouldn't force him to learn about horses. But if my knowledge is that fast
food is not healthy for you, I would try to give them that knowledge,
explaining why fast food is unhealthy. And if they weren't ready to learn
that knowledge yet, I would not let them go to fast food restaurants anyway
until they were ready to learn it--I would just say, "No, McDonald's is not
good for you."
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
barefootmamax4
--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff"
<kmoose75@...> wrote:
until they learn it? What will you do when they go even if you don't
allow it? Is where the "power" comes in,to enforce them to learn what
you want/believe in? You could always say "No, I will not take you".
What will happen when they find other ways to get there like bikes or
friends or cars?
I don't see anything wrong with just giving the knowlege that fast
food is unhealthy,but I don't see that knowlege as a power thing
either.
-Kelly
<kmoose75@...> wrote:
> But if my knowledge is that fastknowledge,
> food is not healthy for you, I would try to give them that
> explaining why fast food is unhealthy. And if they weren't readyto learn
> that knowledge yet, I would not let them go to fast foodrestaurants anyway
> until they were ready to learn it--I would just say, "No,McDonald's is not
> good for you."What about if they disagree with you? You would not let them go
until they learn it? What will you do when they go even if you don't
allow it? Is where the "power" comes in,to enforce them to learn what
you want/believe in? You could always say "No, I will not take you".
What will happen when they find other ways to get there like bikes or
friends or cars?
I don't see anything wrong with just giving the knowlege that fast
food is unhealthy,but I don't see that knowlege as a power thing
either.
-Kelly
keetry
> But if my knowledge is that fastlearn
> food is not healthy for you, I would try to give them that knowledge,
> explaining why fast food is unhealthy. And if they weren't ready to
> that knowledge yet, I would not let them go to fast food restaurantsanyway
> until they were ready to learn it--I would just say, "No, McDonald'sis not
> good for you."This bothered me, too. It's one thing to pass on your beliefs for
other people to take or leave. It's another thing to not allow
something because you think you *know* better.
Alysia
Ren Allen
~~I would not let them go to fast food restaurants
anyway until they were ready to learn it--I would just say, "No,
McDonald's is not good for you."~~
I would say a fun time eating and playing at McDonald's is a LOT
healthier for a human being than being told their desire is crap.
Happiness is good for you.
Food is food. Some food is better for us than other foods, sure. But
is there really a risk that if you are offering lots of healthy
choices and trusting them, that McDonald's will somehow ruin their
health? Nah.
I'm a certified health nut and I take my child to McDonald's when they
ask. The happy memories far outweigh any unhealthiness in the food. My
child may or may not live to adulthood. I may or may not live to see
them into adulthood. I'd rather they have fabulous memories of us
doing things together than memories of me saying "no, it's bad for
you" and creating a greater desire to explore that thing as soon as
I'm not around!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
anyway until they were ready to learn it--I would just say, "No,
McDonald's is not good for you."~~
I would say a fun time eating and playing at McDonald's is a LOT
healthier for a human being than being told their desire is crap.
Happiness is good for you.
Food is food. Some food is better for us than other foods, sure. But
is there really a risk that if you are offering lots of healthy
choices and trusting them, that McDonald's will somehow ruin their
health? Nah.
I'm a certified health nut and I take my child to McDonald's when they
ask. The happy memories far outweigh any unhealthiness in the food. My
child may or may not live to adulthood. I may or may not live to see
them into adulthood. I'd rather they have fabulous memories of us
doing things together than memories of me saying "no, it's bad for
you" and creating a greater desire to explore that thing as soon as
I'm not around!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 3, 2008, at 3:29 PM, barefootmamax4 wrote:
credibility. Give specifics that you can really back up with true
information.
How about letting them know that it is very tempting and easy to eat
too many unhealthy foods at fast food places - that they make the
servings way oversized, that they use a lot of fat and salt, which is
probably fine for once in a while but not good on a regular basis.
I eat VERY healthy, but I do eat fast food frequently. I eat a baked
potato and a garden salad at Wendy's. I eat a piled-high with veggies
sandwich or salad at Subway. I get a grilled chicken sandwich with no
sauce and double lettuce and tomatoes. I get a plain hamburger, every
once in a while, with double lettuce and double tomatoes. I don't eat
fries or cheeseburgers or chicken nuggets or hash browns or milk
shakes or soda or apple turnovers or onion rings. I get a nonfat latte
at Starbucks with one of those little bags of almonds that they have
at the register. I get a whole wheat bagel and low-fat cream cheese. I
get a grilled veggie bare-bowl burrito with no cheese and extra fresh
salsa at Baja Fresh. I get a Panda Bowl with mandarin chicken on
veggies (no noodles) at Panda Express. I LOVE Genghis Khan - the
mongolian barbeque place in many malls - I pile on the veggies with
just a little smidgen of lean chicken and no noodles.
I could go on - I eat fast food very often, but I am very picky about
what I choose to eat.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't see anything wrong with just giving the knowlege that fastI see something wrong with overstatements. It reduces your
> food is unhealthy,
credibility. Give specifics that you can really back up with true
information.
How about letting them know that it is very tempting and easy to eat
too many unhealthy foods at fast food places - that they make the
servings way oversized, that they use a lot of fat and salt, which is
probably fine for once in a while but not good on a regular basis.
I eat VERY healthy, but I do eat fast food frequently. I eat a baked
potato and a garden salad at Wendy's. I eat a piled-high with veggies
sandwich or salad at Subway. I get a grilled chicken sandwich with no
sauce and double lettuce and tomatoes. I get a plain hamburger, every
once in a while, with double lettuce and double tomatoes. I don't eat
fries or cheeseburgers or chicken nuggets or hash browns or milk
shakes or soda or apple turnovers or onion rings. I get a nonfat latte
at Starbucks with one of those little bags of almonds that they have
at the register. I get a whole wheat bagel and low-fat cream cheese. I
get a grilled veggie bare-bowl burrito with no cheese and extra fresh
salsa at Baja Fresh. I get a Panda Bowl with mandarin chicken on
veggies (no noodles) at Panda Express. I LOVE Genghis Khan - the
mongolian barbeque place in many malls - I pile on the veggies with
just a little smidgen of lean chicken and no noodles.
I could go on - I eat fast food very often, but I am very picky about
what I choose to eat.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
I don't quite get this viewpoint. First of all, it's not other people, it's
my children. Not that I own them, but that I love them. I care for their
well-being. Secondly, I do know better than them sometimes, because they
are children and I am an adult. They know that french fries taste good.
They don't know that they cause cancer and heart disease. And even if they
do, developmentally, they aren't always capable of putting into perspective
the health risks and the craving for fried food. Are you saying that even
if I do know better, no matter what, I should let them make their own
decisions?
Here's a question: If your child wanted to smoke cigarettes, would you
allow that? I am not asking this question to be confrontational, I am
asking it because it is the most extreme situation that I can think of, and
I am really trying to wrap my mind around this.
Sometimes I really feel like I get unschooling, and other times, I think,
"No, this can't be for me." I am just thankful that at least you all are
discussing this with me!
Kim
my children. Not that I own them, but that I love them. I care for their
well-being. Secondly, I do know better than them sometimes, because they
are children and I am an adult. They know that french fries taste good.
They don't know that they cause cancer and heart disease. And even if they
do, developmentally, they aren't always capable of putting into perspective
the health risks and the craving for fried food. Are you saying that even
if I do know better, no matter what, I should let them make their own
decisions?
Here's a question: If your child wanted to smoke cigarettes, would you
allow that? I am not asking this question to be confrontational, I am
asking it because it is the most extreme situation that I can think of, and
I am really trying to wrap my mind around this.
Sometimes I really feel like I get unschooling, and other times, I think,
"No, this can't be for me." I am just thankful that at least you all are
discussing this with me!
Kim
> This bothered me, too. It's one thing to pass on your beliefs for[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> other people to take or leave. It's another thing to not allow
> something because you think you *know* better.
>
> Alysia
>
>
>
Kim Musolff
I would say a fun time eating and playing at McDonald's is a LOT
healthier for a human being than being told their desire is crap.
It's one thing to say nicely, that we're not going to McDonalds because it's
not a healthy place to eat. It's quite another to say their idea is crap.
Just because you say no, does that really mean a child thinks his idea is
crap? When I want to go out to eat, and my husband says, "No," I don't
assume he thinks my idea stinks. Usually there is a good reason why he
doesn't want to go there. We don't say no often, so once in awhile can't be
bad.
But
is there really a risk that if you are offering lots of healthy
choices and trusting them, that McDonald's will somehow ruin their
health?
I believe so. I mean, i understand that McDonald's, once in awhile, will
not destroy your health if you generally make healthy food choices. But
what about helping children develop healthy habits? If I took my children
out to fast food every time they asked, until they were developmentally
ready to resist good-tasting food because of the health risks, that would be
more than just a few hamburgers.
I'm a certified health nut and I take my child to McDonald's when they
ask.
But how often do they ask? If they asked every day, would you take them
there? Our kids hardly ever asked to go to fast food restaurants before we
moved last summer. But when we were between houses for 3 months, we ate out
almost every night. Since then, our children have been asking to eat fast
food almost every time we pass one. They think it's normal now. And the
problem is that fast food tastes good. If you don't know (or think about)
what's in it, then it's much yummier than fish and rice for dinner.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
healthier for a human being than being told their desire is crap.
It's one thing to say nicely, that we're not going to McDonalds because it's
not a healthy place to eat. It's quite another to say their idea is crap.
Just because you say no, does that really mean a child thinks his idea is
crap? When I want to go out to eat, and my husband says, "No," I don't
assume he thinks my idea stinks. Usually there is a good reason why he
doesn't want to go there. We don't say no often, so once in awhile can't be
bad.
But
is there really a risk that if you are offering lots of healthy
choices and trusting them, that McDonald's will somehow ruin their
health?
I believe so. I mean, i understand that McDonald's, once in awhile, will
not destroy your health if you generally make healthy food choices. But
what about helping children develop healthy habits? If I took my children
out to fast food every time they asked, until they were developmentally
ready to resist good-tasting food because of the health risks, that would be
more than just a few hamburgers.
I'm a certified health nut and I take my child to McDonald's when they
ask.
But how often do they ask? If they asked every day, would you take them
there? Our kids hardly ever asked to go to fast food restaurants before we
moved last summer. But when we were between houses for 3 months, we ate out
almost every night. Since then, our children have been asking to eat fast
food almost every time we pass one. They think it's normal now. And the
problem is that fast food tastes good. If you don't know (or think about)
what's in it, then it's much yummier than fish and rice for dinner.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
How about letting them know that it is very tempting and easy to eat
too many unhealthy foods at fast food places - that they make the
servings way oversized, that they use a lot of fat and salt, which is
probably fine for once in a while but not good on a regular basis.
Good point. I think I generally do this. But at some point (lespecially
when they are really young), don't you just have to say "No." Otherwise, it
turns into a lecture.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
too many unhealthy foods at fast food places - that they make the
servings way oversized, that they use a lot of fat and salt, which is
probably fine for once in a while but not good on a regular basis.
Good point. I think I generally do this. But at some point (lespecially
when they are really young), don't you just have to say "No." Otherwise, it
turns into a lecture.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
The poster was talking about school information here. The supposedly
vital "body of knowledge" that educators impose on children (that
most people forget 90% of ;-)
Most parents worry how their kids will get all of that. When the tool
of pushing that information into a child is removed for unschooling,
they still feel that need and seek other avenues that feel
"unschoolish", like looking for teachable moments.
The point is to work on eliminating the need to push in that body of
knowledge rather than seek other ways to get it in.
Aha! I think I get it now! It's a perspective thing, not a "rule" that I
must follow! (Gee, was I schooled, or what?) I was just reading an
unschooling book last night, and I had an epiphany. Unschooling is not
about a formula for teaching/learning. There are no rules to follow. It is
about a way of thinking. I think someone here (was it you, Joyce?) said
that it is more about learning how to give each of your children what THEY
need to learn and grow. Like when my baby cries, I know what she needs,
because I know her. I finally get that. Yea!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vital "body of knowledge" that educators impose on children (that
most people forget 90% of ;-)
Most parents worry how their kids will get all of that. When the tool
of pushing that information into a child is removed for unschooling,
they still feel that need and seek other avenues that feel
"unschoolish", like looking for teachable moments.
The point is to work on eliminating the need to push in that body of
knowledge rather than seek other ways to get it in.
Aha! I think I get it now! It's a perspective thing, not a "rule" that I
must follow! (Gee, was I schooled, or what?) I was just reading an
unschooling book last night, and I had an epiphany. Unschooling is not
about a formula for teaching/learning. There are no rules to follow. It is
about a way of thinking. I think someone here (was it you, Joyce?) said
that it is more about learning how to give each of your children what THEY
need to learn and grow. Like when my baby cries, I know what she needs,
because I know her. I finally get that. Yea!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~!~Here's a question: If your child wanted to smoke cigarettes, would
you allow that?~~
Do you believe that by not allowing something, it will actually keep
your child from doing it? Good luck with that.
You can keep your children from McDonald's most of the time right now,
because they're young I assume. Anyone with older kids or teens knows
full well that a child will do the things they really desire as soon
as they get away from a controlling parent. You're making that food
seem really mystical and desirable.
As far as the cigarette issue, I knew when my oldest child tried a
cigarette. He told me all about it and about the situation he'd been
in that caused him to try it. We talked about how it felt and what he
thought. I didn't judge his choice as bad or good. We talked. I get
such honesty from him at 18...about issues I would NEVER have shared
with my parents.
I knew when he and his girlfriend made a conscious choice to have sex.
Forbidding sex or cigarettes or McDonalds is laughable really. Better
to trust that my children need to explore certain foods or ideas WITH
me alongside, than to forbid it and let them explore all alone later
in life.
It's not true that McDonalds causes cancer and if you tell them that
they will meet people who eat those foods and are the epitome of
health. Then what? Your credibility is shot. Cancer is partially
genetic and partically lifestyle induced. A lifestyle of health, with
some McDonald's thrown in is not going to harm most any average person.
Your child will eat fries at some point, I could about bet. If they
can't trust you to not judge their desire for fries, how will they
trust you with the big issues like sex, drugs, tattoos etc???
If I had a craving for some ice cream and my dh informed me it was bad
and told me "no", it would create a situation in which he was in
power. I don't want to be in a seat of power with my children, I
prefer an environment where we are all learning together.
Interestingly, if you came to my home you'd hear a lot of talk about
fossil fuels and food shortages and growing healthy foods. We have
bees, we're growing a huge garden and these issues are part of our
lives. Nobody gets some whopping "that's not healthy" judgement when
they want other foods though. In doing that, they trust me with
conversations they might not otherwise trust me with. They're also
very balanced individuals because they explore all sorts of foods and
the idea of what THEIR own body needs vs. another person.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
you allow that?~~
Do you believe that by not allowing something, it will actually keep
your child from doing it? Good luck with that.
You can keep your children from McDonald's most of the time right now,
because they're young I assume. Anyone with older kids or teens knows
full well that a child will do the things they really desire as soon
as they get away from a controlling parent. You're making that food
seem really mystical and desirable.
As far as the cigarette issue, I knew when my oldest child tried a
cigarette. He told me all about it and about the situation he'd been
in that caused him to try it. We talked about how it felt and what he
thought. I didn't judge his choice as bad or good. We talked. I get
such honesty from him at 18...about issues I would NEVER have shared
with my parents.
I knew when he and his girlfriend made a conscious choice to have sex.
Forbidding sex or cigarettes or McDonalds is laughable really. Better
to trust that my children need to explore certain foods or ideas WITH
me alongside, than to forbid it and let them explore all alone later
in life.
It's not true that McDonalds causes cancer and if you tell them that
they will meet people who eat those foods and are the epitome of
health. Then what? Your credibility is shot. Cancer is partially
genetic and partically lifestyle induced. A lifestyle of health, with
some McDonald's thrown in is not going to harm most any average person.
Your child will eat fries at some point, I could about bet. If they
can't trust you to not judge their desire for fries, how will they
trust you with the big issues like sex, drugs, tattoos etc???
If I had a craving for some ice cream and my dh informed me it was bad
and told me "no", it would create a situation in which he was in
power. I don't want to be in a seat of power with my children, I
prefer an environment where we are all learning together.
Interestingly, if you came to my home you'd hear a lot of talk about
fossil fuels and food shortages and growing healthy foods. We have
bees, we're growing a huge garden and these issues are part of our
lives. Nobody gets some whopping "that's not healthy" judgement when
they want other foods though. In doing that, they trust me with
conversations they might not otherwise trust me with. They're also
very balanced individuals because they explore all sorts of foods and
the idea of what THEIR own body needs vs. another person.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~But at some point (lespecially
when they are really young), don't you just have to say "No."
Otherwise, it turns into a lecture.~~
No lecture. No "no". Just eat the food in joy and peace and it will be
healthy. Really.
As they grow, trust that the ideas of healthy vs. unhealthy will be
part of their learning process like everything else they're learning.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
when they are really young), don't you just have to say "No."
Otherwise, it turns into a lecture.~~
No lecture. No "no". Just eat the food in joy and peace and it will be
healthy. Really.
As they grow, trust that the ideas of healthy vs. unhealthy will be
part of their learning process like everything else they're learning.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Mary Beth
My kids have decided to avoid fast foods because of how it makes them
feel. They feel heavy or downright sick when they eat them. None of
them now choose fast foods, but it was their decision. They now choose
to go somewhere with salads or good bread and cheese and veggies. My
youngest and decided to become a vegetarian, and it was because she
loves animals so much. She has influenced all of us to move in that
direction. She recently told us that eating meat also influences the
global environment. My kids have been a great influence on me!
Mary Beth
feel. They feel heavy or downright sick when they eat them. None of
them now choose fast foods, but it was their decision. They now choose
to go somewhere with salads or good bread and cheese and veggies. My
youngest and decided to become a vegetarian, and it was because she
loves animals so much. She has influenced all of us to move in that
direction. She recently told us that eating meat also influences the
global environment. My kids have been a great influence on me!
Mary Beth
hbmccarty
Hi Kim-
Control over food was the hardest thing for me to let go of- it was a
very emotional process for me. My son has asthma which when he was
younger was markedly improved by avoiding gluten and refined foods in
general. The stakes are relatively high. However- control is not
something I truly have over him, and that became apparent. What really
hit me at one point is that even if somehow I managed to maintain
control over his diet when he lived at home(which I couldn't) - then he
would at one point leave home and begin binging on all the forbidden
foods and then really have some problems when I wasn't there to help
him. I much prefer to have him go through whatever process of learning
about how to maintain his own health- through whatever "mistakes" he
needs to make while he lives at home then when he is miles away. While I
was controlling his diet he was not learning to eat "well"- he was
learning that I was mean and controlling- that is all he could see.
Also- it become apparent that any type of control I attempted to have
over him was hurting our relationship. This really became apparent as he
reached the pre-teen years. Any influence I had would only come through
putting our relationship first. I only wish I had discovered this way
of parenting long ago. I give him information WHEN he is open to it-
such as when he asks- Mom- why do you get sick less than I do? Or why do
you buy this food instead of that food? He said recently that he prefers
real food to junk food- because it tastes better.
I know this can feel like a huge step in trusting your children- but
like anything else- people will either learn it or not learn it- and
forcing or prohibiting isn't helping them learn- it interferes.
Heather M
Control over food was the hardest thing for me to let go of- it was a
very emotional process for me. My son has asthma which when he was
younger was markedly improved by avoiding gluten and refined foods in
general. The stakes are relatively high. However- control is not
something I truly have over him, and that became apparent. What really
hit me at one point is that even if somehow I managed to maintain
control over his diet when he lived at home(which I couldn't) - then he
would at one point leave home and begin binging on all the forbidden
foods and then really have some problems when I wasn't there to help
him. I much prefer to have him go through whatever process of learning
about how to maintain his own health- through whatever "mistakes" he
needs to make while he lives at home then when he is miles away. While I
was controlling his diet he was not learning to eat "well"- he was
learning that I was mean and controlling- that is all he could see.
Also- it become apparent that any type of control I attempted to have
over him was hurting our relationship. This really became apparent as he
reached the pre-teen years. Any influence I had would only come through
putting our relationship first. I only wish I had discovered this way
of parenting long ago. I give him information WHEN he is open to it-
such as when he asks- Mom- why do you get sick less than I do? Or why do
you buy this food instead of that food? He said recently that he prefers
real food to junk food- because it tastes better.
I know this can feel like a huge step in trusting your children- but
like anything else- people will either learn it or not learn it- and
forcing or prohibiting isn't helping them learn- it interferes.
Heather M
Karen Swanay
Kim,
I am new to Unschooling and like you was (and sometimes still) have
concerns and problems with the philosophy, or rather application of
the philosophy in a particular situation. Early on food was a big
bugaboo for me. I was overweight. Very. I'm 5'2" and at my heaviest
I weighed 235lbs. I've lost 100 lbs in 2 yrs. I am also chronically
ill (Systemic Lupus, Fibromyalgia and Sjogren's Syndrome.) So, I was
really sensitive to the idea that my boys might get fat. And my 11 yr
old is getting pudgy. Anyway, I had this same pre-learning tantrum
about foods and just letting them eat whatever. But Ren is right. If
you control each and every mouthful of food you provide to your kids,
they will eat what they want when they can. So I let it go. It was
not easy. I smiled and offered them the foods they wanted (although
not going out for fast food often because now we are talking going out
and buying and that ran into some real life issues that we had to deal
with.) But I'd provide Cheese Its and other such "crap" and smile,
but in my head I'd be screaming "YOU ARE GOING TO GET SO FAT!!!"
Because as I mentioned before, being fat is my bugaboo. But I did
this in my head and was careful not to pass it along. Despite some
assertions that kids really know what you are thinking I think if you
are careful you can think things and your kids will not know. And
they didn't. (That's how I got them to eat yogurt as babies, with a
smile and "yummy!" while inside I was gagging on the stench.)
Anyway, there are a few shows on TV that we enjoy. One is called "You
Are What You Eat" it's on BBC America. And it shows bad diets and
what they do to people and what being on an 8 week detox diet can do
for folks. We all watched it. I didn't make them watch it. And I
certainly NEVER said "SEE!!! This will be YOU if you don't change your
bad ways!" We just watched it because it was entertaining. But they
were listening. And another show, the name escapes me is about foods
and our bodies and how to do a better job of feeding them. The Dr who
is on the show is Dr Oz anyway, we learned on that show how bad
hydrogenated oils are for you and what they do to your liver. Again,
I didn't lecture and I didn't say "You are killing yourself." I just
talked about this new information actually WE talked about it. It was
something we didn't know. My husband and I (my husband is a horrible
eater BTW) decided no hydrogenated oils for us. Now the kids are kind
of caught up in that because if I don't buy them they can't have them.
But they got into reading labels too. Foods they would choose
normally, they would choose different alternatives without the
hydrogenated oils. But I didn't insist. They came to the decision on
their own. And yes, from time to time we ALL eat hydrogenated oils if
we are out or there is some item we want. But overall we don't eat
them anymore. Instead of buying cookies that are generally LOADED
with them (and high fructose corn syrup which we also avoid) I make
cookies at home. So it's not no cookies...it's how can we make
cookies healthier?
Also I do not have artificial sweeteners here. Because of my health
issues, they all make my pain worse. I have told the boys (not Morgan
she's just 3 and eats like a Chinese person so it's not an issue for
her right now) that I'd rather they try to avoid artificial sweeteners
and that sugar isn't bad. It's better if you want something sweet to
eat real sugar than chemical laden things. But I don't insist. I
guide. When we are at the store, if one of them picks up something
"Light" because they believe it's a better food choice we read the
label and see what's in it. They decide then if they want it anyway
or not. I don't partake of it because *I* don't want to. They know
that. But they are welcome to have it. We've talked about how it
makes me feel and why I eye those products skeptically. But that's
not beating them over the head with it. That's just sharing
information and there is a difference. AND it's not scare tactics. I
have anecdotal evidence from my own body that backs me up that when
*I* drink or eat artificial sweeteners *I* am in more pain. The boys
can ingest them with no issues. If they choose to do so that's fine.
I certainly have not said things I couldn't back up like "Eating
french fries causes cancer!" Because there isn't any real evidence to
back that up. My kids are smart and they know what studies are
supposed to show and what a representative sample is. They know a
"study" of 5 people that draws large conclusions is no study.
We also know someone who was in perfect health. Jogged 6 miles a day,
thin, beautiful, vegan. Didn't smoke, didn't drink, and found liver
cancer and was dead 8 weeks later. Their grandfather was a smoker and
got lung cancer and died from it. So they have seen both sides. They
ask questions and I give them the factual information I have but I
also give them opinion but I tell them it's such. "I think smoking is
gross. Other people feel differently." That is a statement of
opinion and fact. It is a fact that it is my opinion that smoking is
gross. It is fact that other people feel differently. They will have
to decide for themselves what they want to do. But keeping it open
for us to discuss these issues makes it less likely they will try it.
And as far as foods go...sometimes when we are out we do the fast food
thing. Because food shouldn't be punishment or reward. Food is food.
Some foods taste better than others. We will sometimes eat something
that is *total crap* like the deep fried onions some places serve and
while eating it we will talk about how bad it is for us but how very
good it tastes. And more often than not it's the boys who bring it
up. It's OK to eat crap every now and again, and when we are all
stuffing our faces with it and smiling and laughing it's so much
better than us sitting around a table and choking down something I
personally find disgusting...fish...with everyone wishing they could
be eating something different.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a larger picture
available and when I was looking at the very small picture (fat vs
thin) I was missing the rest of the picture and passing along my food
issues even though I thought I wasn't. You will do what you can do
with this philosophy in the time frame that it works for you. I
fought against it in the beginning because I was looking at it as all
or nothing. If I can't do it all I might as well do nothing. But
when I let that go, I applied it where I could and made a conscious
effort to let it take hold in other areas as well. There are still
things I do say "no" to. I just told Morgan "No throwing" when she
hurled a wooden block in the direction of the TV. There is a "No
Throwing" rule in the living room for hard things. But soft things
are OK. So I took the block and set it gently on the floor and threw
a soft "OK to throw" item at her. She laughed and picked it up and is
throwing it around as we speak. Likely I could have phrased it
better. But it's better than I would have done 9 yrs ago. Come to
this as you can in the ways you can and it will eventually impose
itself on other areas of your life. You will see it work in one area
and you will not be able to avoid seeing how it would work in another.
At least that's how I see it. But I haven't been at this very long,
just about a year.
hth
Karen
I am new to Unschooling and like you was (and sometimes still) have
concerns and problems with the philosophy, or rather application of
the philosophy in a particular situation. Early on food was a big
bugaboo for me. I was overweight. Very. I'm 5'2" and at my heaviest
I weighed 235lbs. I've lost 100 lbs in 2 yrs. I am also chronically
ill (Systemic Lupus, Fibromyalgia and Sjogren's Syndrome.) So, I was
really sensitive to the idea that my boys might get fat. And my 11 yr
old is getting pudgy. Anyway, I had this same pre-learning tantrum
about foods and just letting them eat whatever. But Ren is right. If
you control each and every mouthful of food you provide to your kids,
they will eat what they want when they can. So I let it go. It was
not easy. I smiled and offered them the foods they wanted (although
not going out for fast food often because now we are talking going out
and buying and that ran into some real life issues that we had to deal
with.) But I'd provide Cheese Its and other such "crap" and smile,
but in my head I'd be screaming "YOU ARE GOING TO GET SO FAT!!!"
Because as I mentioned before, being fat is my bugaboo. But I did
this in my head and was careful not to pass it along. Despite some
assertions that kids really know what you are thinking I think if you
are careful you can think things and your kids will not know. And
they didn't. (That's how I got them to eat yogurt as babies, with a
smile and "yummy!" while inside I was gagging on the stench.)
Anyway, there are a few shows on TV that we enjoy. One is called "You
Are What You Eat" it's on BBC America. And it shows bad diets and
what they do to people and what being on an 8 week detox diet can do
for folks. We all watched it. I didn't make them watch it. And I
certainly NEVER said "SEE!!! This will be YOU if you don't change your
bad ways!" We just watched it because it was entertaining. But they
were listening. And another show, the name escapes me is about foods
and our bodies and how to do a better job of feeding them. The Dr who
is on the show is Dr Oz anyway, we learned on that show how bad
hydrogenated oils are for you and what they do to your liver. Again,
I didn't lecture and I didn't say "You are killing yourself." I just
talked about this new information actually WE talked about it. It was
something we didn't know. My husband and I (my husband is a horrible
eater BTW) decided no hydrogenated oils for us. Now the kids are kind
of caught up in that because if I don't buy them they can't have them.
But they got into reading labels too. Foods they would choose
normally, they would choose different alternatives without the
hydrogenated oils. But I didn't insist. They came to the decision on
their own. And yes, from time to time we ALL eat hydrogenated oils if
we are out or there is some item we want. But overall we don't eat
them anymore. Instead of buying cookies that are generally LOADED
with them (and high fructose corn syrup which we also avoid) I make
cookies at home. So it's not no cookies...it's how can we make
cookies healthier?
Also I do not have artificial sweeteners here. Because of my health
issues, they all make my pain worse. I have told the boys (not Morgan
she's just 3 and eats like a Chinese person so it's not an issue for
her right now) that I'd rather they try to avoid artificial sweeteners
and that sugar isn't bad. It's better if you want something sweet to
eat real sugar than chemical laden things. But I don't insist. I
guide. When we are at the store, if one of them picks up something
"Light" because they believe it's a better food choice we read the
label and see what's in it. They decide then if they want it anyway
or not. I don't partake of it because *I* don't want to. They know
that. But they are welcome to have it. We've talked about how it
makes me feel and why I eye those products skeptically. But that's
not beating them over the head with it. That's just sharing
information and there is a difference. AND it's not scare tactics. I
have anecdotal evidence from my own body that backs me up that when
*I* drink or eat artificial sweeteners *I* am in more pain. The boys
can ingest them with no issues. If they choose to do so that's fine.
I certainly have not said things I couldn't back up like "Eating
french fries causes cancer!" Because there isn't any real evidence to
back that up. My kids are smart and they know what studies are
supposed to show and what a representative sample is. They know a
"study" of 5 people that draws large conclusions is no study.
We also know someone who was in perfect health. Jogged 6 miles a day,
thin, beautiful, vegan. Didn't smoke, didn't drink, and found liver
cancer and was dead 8 weeks later. Their grandfather was a smoker and
got lung cancer and died from it. So they have seen both sides. They
ask questions and I give them the factual information I have but I
also give them opinion but I tell them it's such. "I think smoking is
gross. Other people feel differently." That is a statement of
opinion and fact. It is a fact that it is my opinion that smoking is
gross. It is fact that other people feel differently. They will have
to decide for themselves what they want to do. But keeping it open
for us to discuss these issues makes it less likely they will try it.
And as far as foods go...sometimes when we are out we do the fast food
thing. Because food shouldn't be punishment or reward. Food is food.
Some foods taste better than others. We will sometimes eat something
that is *total crap* like the deep fried onions some places serve and
while eating it we will talk about how bad it is for us but how very
good it tastes. And more often than not it's the boys who bring it
up. It's OK to eat crap every now and again, and when we are all
stuffing our faces with it and smiling and laughing it's so much
better than us sitting around a table and choking down something I
personally find disgusting...fish...with everyone wishing they could
be eating something different.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a larger picture
available and when I was looking at the very small picture (fat vs
thin) I was missing the rest of the picture and passing along my food
issues even though I thought I wasn't. You will do what you can do
with this philosophy in the time frame that it works for you. I
fought against it in the beginning because I was looking at it as all
or nothing. If I can't do it all I might as well do nothing. But
when I let that go, I applied it where I could and made a conscious
effort to let it take hold in other areas as well. There are still
things I do say "no" to. I just told Morgan "No throwing" when she
hurled a wooden block in the direction of the TV. There is a "No
Throwing" rule in the living room for hard things. But soft things
are OK. So I took the block and set it gently on the floor and threw
a soft "OK to throw" item at her. She laughed and picked it up and is
throwing it around as we speak. Likely I could have phrased it
better. But it's better than I would have done 9 yrs ago. Come to
this as you can in the ways you can and it will eventually impose
itself on other areas of your life. You will see it work in one area
and you will not be able to avoid seeing how it would work in another.
At least that's how I see it. But I haven't been at this very long,
just about a year.
hth
Karen
Debra Rossing
>He said recently that he prefers real food to junk food- because ittastes better
We're having lasagna tomorrow - DH's "world famous" (lol) homemade
lasagna - he makes the whole wheat herbed noodles from scratch! We
hadn't had it in a while and DS (almost 10) mentioned last week that we
hadn't had homemade pasta in a while and that it tastes better than the
store kind. Okay, so let's plan for it soon - and we did.
DS has been "in on" discussions that DH and I have about our various
health situations (he's got high blood pressure, I was diagnosed with
type 2 diabetes a year ago, so carbs, fats, and sodium are all up for
discussion) - we don't "lecture" him but when DH and I are talking, DS
might ask a question like "what is hydrogenated?" Actually, though, some
of the best information on nutrition has come from watching Good Eats (I
loved when Alton Brown explained the differences between
monounsaturated, polyunsaturated, and saturated fat using a little
trolley car) and talking about what we're seeing/hearing. DS has the
freedom to choose what and when and how much he eats (we just never
changed that from when he was an infant and nursed on demand, for
however long he wanted - the eat what, when, how much idea of free
nursing as applied to solid foods). We'll answer questions and provide
information and modelling (he's more likely to check a label than I am!)
- he can eat just one potato chip if that's all he wants BECAUSE he
knows he can have 20 if he wants or he can wait until later and have
more. There's a sense of abundance even when we're out of something and
need to wait until the next paycheck/grocery trip. DH and I have learned
so much about healthy eating by watching our never food regulated DS -
he can just as easily eat half a doughnut, eat some homemade bread and
soup, then eat the rest of the doughnut as eat the whole doughnut first
simply because he knows that there's no "deadline" to get it done -
it'll still be there and available later if he chooses to wait. He often
gets a whopper jr (no pickles) but he knows that DH and I won't get that
(I'll get a salad or a veggie burger if we're there) and he's coming to
prefer going to places like Subway where he can get more veggies, less
meat (we're not vegetarian, we're more what I'd call plant-based
omnivores - we don't generally buy meats for home use but if we're out
we get whatever we want in that location). What's really humorous is
when he piles a plate with steamed broccoli or avocado slices and people
wonder how we 'get him' to eat that (he generally opts for broccoli over
fries whenever possible at restaurants) - it's really easy: don't make
him do it! He's got an interesting concept about things like halloween
candy and desserts and such: if you make kids eat all their dinner in
order to get what they want (a sweet), then they'll override their body
saying it's full in order to eat the sweet because they've 'earned' it.
He's developed this idea in conversation with us and watching his
younger cousin be told "you have to eat x or no y" (you have to eat this
serving of mac & cheese before you eat that slice of pumpkin pie for
instance...gee, they're not all that different when you get right down
to it).
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melissa_hice
I take my kids to McDonald's every Thursday. They offer $1.29
Hamburger Happy Meals on that day. We generally get apples instead of
fries and they get milk instead of soda. One of the best things about
going to our local McDonald's is that my children have developed a very
wonderful relationship with the elderly host and hostess (husband and
wife team). They absoultely love going to McDonald's so that they can
see their good friends, Mr. Harry and Ms. Beverly. They are like
grandparents to them.
Melissa
Hamburger Happy Meals on that day. We generally get apples instead of
fries and they get milk instead of soda. One of the best things about
going to our local McDonald's is that my children have developed a very
wonderful relationship with the elderly host and hostess (husband and
wife team). They absoultely love going to McDonald's so that they can
see their good friends, Mr. Harry and Ms. Beverly. They are like
grandparents to them.
Melissa
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff"
<kmoose75@...> wrote:
heart disease. We've been exploring this idea of proof with the
violent video game thread about whether or not scientific studies
actually prove causation. Most times they do not. What they may show
is correlation, which just means that one thing appears to be
strongly associated with the other. However, especially when
studying humans and human behavior, there is absolutely no way to
exclude all other variables to make it possible to prove true
causation. So, you can't *know* that french fries cause cancer or
heart disease. You can *believe* that they do and that's your
choice.
Interesting that you should bring up the cigarette smoking because I
have had to deal with just this situation. My oldest son, who is now
17, does smoke. I could not stop him no matter how much I wanted to.
I'm not sure exactly when he started but I think it was around 13 or
14. He likes to tell me of a time when I found a pack of his
cigarettes and took all of them out and broke them and threw them
away. That didn't stop him from smoking. It only made him very
angry at me. I don't remember doing this at all but I'm sure I did
since he remembers it so vividly.
I have come to realize that all I can do is talk to him about my
concerns for him, including how difficult it is to quit. I have
first hand knowledge of that since I smoked cigarettes for years and
it took me years to quit. Do I think that at 13 or even 17 he can
completely understand the possible long term effects of smoking?
Probably not. I cannot control what he does, though. I asked him not
to smoke in the house for the health and safety of the rest of us.
Most of the time he respected that. I didn't give him a hard time
about smoking on my front porch. I even provided him with an ash
tray because *I* did not want cigarette butts all over my front
lawn.
It's his life, his body, his health, his choice.
Alysia
<kmoose75@...> wrote:
>people, it's
> I don't quite get this viewpoint. First of all, it's not other
> my children. Not that I own them, but that I love them. I carefor their
> well-being. Secondly, I do know better than them sometimes,because they
> are children and I am an adult. They know that french fries tastegood.
> They don't know that they cause cancer and heart disease. Andeven if they
> do, developmentally, they aren't always capable of putting intoperspective
> the health risks and the craving for fried food. Are you sayingthat even
> if I do know better, no matter what, I should let them make theirown
> decisions?would you
>
> Here's a question: If your child wanted to smoke cigarettes,
> allow that? I am not asking this question to be confrontational,I am
> asking it because it is the most extreme situation that I canthink of, and
> I am really trying to wrap my mind around this.think,
>
> Sometimes I really feel like I get unschooling, and other times, I
> "No, this can't be for me." I am just thankful that at least youall are
> discussing this with me!First, there is no real proof that french fries cause cancer or
>
> Kim
heart disease. We've been exploring this idea of proof with the
violent video game thread about whether or not scientific studies
actually prove causation. Most times they do not. What they may show
is correlation, which just means that one thing appears to be
strongly associated with the other. However, especially when
studying humans and human behavior, there is absolutely no way to
exclude all other variables to make it possible to prove true
causation. So, you can't *know* that french fries cause cancer or
heart disease. You can *believe* that they do and that's your
choice.
Interesting that you should bring up the cigarette smoking because I
have had to deal with just this situation. My oldest son, who is now
17, does smoke. I could not stop him no matter how much I wanted to.
I'm not sure exactly when he started but I think it was around 13 or
14. He likes to tell me of a time when I found a pack of his
cigarettes and took all of them out and broke them and threw them
away. That didn't stop him from smoking. It only made him very
angry at me. I don't remember doing this at all but I'm sure I did
since he remembers it so vividly.
I have come to realize that all I can do is talk to him about my
concerns for him, including how difficult it is to quit. I have
first hand knowledge of that since I smoked cigarettes for years and
it took me years to quit. Do I think that at 13 or even 17 he can
completely understand the possible long term effects of smoking?
Probably not. I cannot control what he does, though. I asked him not
to smoke in the house for the health and safety of the rest of us.
Most of the time he respected that. I didn't give him a hard time
about smoking on my front porch. I even provided him with an ash
tray because *I* did not want cigarette butts all over my front
lawn.
It's his life, his body, his health, his choice.
Alysia
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
control my son. We talk about so many things that I could never talk
to my parents about, even my mom who was very open about stuff. The
problem was that she was also judgemental even though she didn't try
to control me with actions.
My son's friends are shocked at the things he says in front of me.
They marvel at the fact that he's not afraid to talk about these
things with me and that I don't freak out over it. I get to share
with him the information that I think is important so his only
influence isn't whatever he hears on the street, so to speak. I also
get to know more about his real life rather than the life most kids
feel they have to put on for their parents.
He had a girlfriend for a while who's parents were very controlling.
She was not allowed to have a boyfriend so they snuck around. Her
parents had no idea what she was doing. She lied to them all the
time. Every once in a while she would get caught breaking a rule and
she would be grounded for months at a time. It was really crazy. It
never stopped her from doing those things. She would just figure out
other ways to trick her parents. I couldn't help but think what a
sad situation for her parents. They have no idea who thier daughter
is. I don't want that kind of relationship with my children.
Now I apply these principles to my relationship with my 4 year old.
If he asks for McDonalds, sometimes we go and sometimes we don't. It
depends on several factors. I provide plenty of healthy food for him
at home that he enjoys as well. Sometimes he'd prefer fish and rice
rather than a cheeseburger Happy Meal. We ate out the other night
and a lady commented on how impressed she was that he asked for and
ate a salad. There was no need to try to force or coerce him into
eating it. For dessert he wanted ice cream (not organic, probably
not even real ice cream) and carrot cake, off which he just ate the
frosting. I think he discovered he doesn't like carrot cake. He
wouldn't have been able to determine that for himself if I hadn't
let him have that 2nd dessert.
Alysia
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>shared
> I get
> such honesty from him at 18...about issues I would NEVER have
> with my parents.sex.
>
> I knew when he and his girlfriend made a conscious choice to have
> Forbidding sex or cigarettes or McDonalds is laughable really.Better
> to trust that my children need to explore certain foods or ideasWITH
> me alongside, than to forbid it and let them explore all alonelater
> in life.This is exactly what I got once I let go of the idea that I could
>
> > Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
control my son. We talk about so many things that I could never talk
to my parents about, even my mom who was very open about stuff. The
problem was that she was also judgemental even though she didn't try
to control me with actions.
My son's friends are shocked at the things he says in front of me.
They marvel at the fact that he's not afraid to talk about these
things with me and that I don't freak out over it. I get to share
with him the information that I think is important so his only
influence isn't whatever he hears on the street, so to speak. I also
get to know more about his real life rather than the life most kids
feel they have to put on for their parents.
He had a girlfriend for a while who's parents were very controlling.
She was not allowed to have a boyfriend so they snuck around. Her
parents had no idea what she was doing. She lied to them all the
time. Every once in a while she would get caught breaking a rule and
she would be grounded for months at a time. It was really crazy. It
never stopped her from doing those things. She would just figure out
other ways to trick her parents. I couldn't help but think what a
sad situation for her parents. They have no idea who thier daughter
is. I don't want that kind of relationship with my children.
Now I apply these principles to my relationship with my 4 year old.
If he asks for McDonalds, sometimes we go and sometimes we don't. It
depends on several factors. I provide plenty of healthy food for him
at home that he enjoys as well. Sometimes he'd prefer fish and rice
rather than a cheeseburger Happy Meal. We ate out the other night
and a lady commented on how impressed she was that he asked for and
ate a salad. There was no need to try to force or coerce him into
eating it. For dessert he wanted ice cream (not organic, probably
not even real ice cream) and carrot cake, off which he just ate the
frosting. I think he discovered he doesn't like carrot cake. He
wouldn't have been able to determine that for himself if I hadn't
let him have that 2nd dessert.
Alysia
hbmccarty
I think the knowledge involved in eating healthily is in large part your
own experience of how you feel when eating this way or that. You can
read a lot of different things about what is healthy and not healthy but
for me it comes down to how I feel and that is something only I have
knowledge of for myself- and that my children can only have knowledge of
for themselves through their own experience. If I forbid them to eat
"junk food" or any food I think is unhealthy- how will they gain that
knowledge?
Heather M.
keetry wrote:
own experience of how you feel when eating this way or that. You can
read a lot of different things about what is healthy and not healthy but
for me it comes down to how I feel and that is something only I have
knowledge of for myself- and that my children can only have knowledge of
for themselves through their own experience. If I forbid them to eat
"junk food" or any food I think is unhealthy- how will they gain that
knowledge?
Heather M.
keetry wrote:
>
>
> First, there is no real proof that french fries cause cancer or
> heart disease. We've been exploring this idea of proof with the
> violent video game thread about whether or not scientific studies
> actually prove causation. Most times they do not. What they may show
> is correlation, which just means that one thing appears to be
> strongly associated with the other. However, especially when
> studying humans and human behavior, there is absolutely no way to
> exclude all other variables to make it possible to prove true
> causation. So, you can't *know* that french fries cause cancer or
> heart disease. You can *believe* that they do and that's your
> choice.
>
> __
Krisula
>>I would say a fun time eating and playing at McDonald's is a LOThealthier for a human being than being told their desire is crap.
Happiness is good for you.
Food is food. Some food is better for us than other foods, sure. But
is there really a risk that if you are offering lots of healthy
choices and trusting them, that McDonald's will somehow ruin their
health? Nah.<<
I can remember taking my kids to McDonalds for winter playdates because they
had an indoor playground. We usually ate there as well as played and I
also brought apples and carrots because I knew those were things my kids
liked. I would bring enough apples for all the kids we met up with and just
put them on the table. I don't remember ever going home with extra apples.
The kids would eat those along with or instead of their other food. They
liked their fries and stuff and they liked their apples and we played and
had fun for hours.
Fun memories,
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
There is a book, and I can't remember the name at the moment, maybe I'll google it before I'm done, that talks about how you get more nutrition out of the food you enjoy than the food you don't enjoy. It makes sense. When you are stressed your immune system doesn't function as well, so it wouldn't be a hard stretch to imagine that your digestive system might not function as well either. I can't find the book, or the study. Sigh... Anyhow, if you eat something happily you are better able to derive nutrients from it than if you eat it under duress.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
------------
I think the knowledge involved in eating healthily is in large part your
own experience of how you feel when eating this way or that. You can
read a lot of different things about what is healthy and not healthy but
for me it comes down to how I feel and that is something only I have
knowledge of for myself- and that my children can only have knowledge of
for themselves through their own experience. If I forbid them to eat
"junk food" or any food I think is unhealthy- how will they gain that
knowledge?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
------------
I think the knowledge involved in eating healthily is in large part your
own experience of how you feel when eating this way or that. You can
read a lot of different things about what is healthy and not healthy but
for me it comes down to how I feel and that is something only I have
knowledge of for myself- and that my children can only have knowledge of
for themselves through their own experience. If I forbid them to eat
"junk food" or any food I think is unhealthy- how will they gain that
knowledge?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
barefootmamax4
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
If you believe that fast food is unhealthy then I think it's fine to
say so.People have a lot beliefs that cannot be scientifically proven
one way or another. Just look at the vaccine issue for an example. I
do not think it is wrong to make a statement like that. It is wrong
to force your child to agree with you.
It is true you can go to MC Donalds and order the salad. You can get
healthy food at fast food places. In that sense, I could be very
exacting and say "some fast food is bad for you, but the salad is OK".
Personally, I believe that it is not the food itself as much as your
emotional well being. We do go to Mc Donalds,drink soda,eat lots of
sweets.I think if you are worrying that a food is unhealthy you are
getting stressed while eating it and the stress itself is more
unhealthy than the food. A twinkie eaten with joy is just fine.
There was a woman in our newspaper who was 102. When asked what her
secret was she said wonderbread and tea. Yet in any magazine you can
read about the dangers of salt,hydrogenated oils, white bread and
sugar. Science itself looses credibility when they say things
like "eggs are bad for you" then a few years later ..."eggs are good
for you"
-Kelly
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>eat
>
> On Apr 3, 2008, at 3:29 PM, barefootmamax4 wrote:
>
> > I don't see anything wrong with just giving the knowlege that fast
> > food is unhealthy,
>
> I see something wrong with overstatements. It reduces your
> credibility. Give specifics that you can really back up with true
> information.
>
> How about letting them know that it is very tempting and easy to
> too many unhealthy foods at fast food places - that they make theis
> servings way oversized, that they use a lot of fat and salt, which
> probably fine for once in a while but not good on a regularbasis..........
If you believe that fast food is unhealthy then I think it's fine to
say so.People have a lot beliefs that cannot be scientifically proven
one way or another. Just look at the vaccine issue for an example. I
do not think it is wrong to make a statement like that. It is wrong
to force your child to agree with you.
It is true you can go to MC Donalds and order the salad. You can get
healthy food at fast food places. In that sense, I could be very
exacting and say "some fast food is bad for you, but the salad is OK".
Personally, I believe that it is not the food itself as much as your
emotional well being. We do go to Mc Donalds,drink soda,eat lots of
sweets.I think if you are worrying that a food is unhealthy you are
getting stressed while eating it and the stress itself is more
unhealthy than the food. A twinkie eaten with joy is just fine.
There was a woman in our newspaper who was 102. When asked what her
secret was she said wonderbread and tea. Yet in any magazine you can
read about the dangers of salt,hydrogenated oils, white bread and
sugar. Science itself looses credibility when they say things
like "eggs are bad for you" then a few years later ..."eggs are good
for you"
-Kelly
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 4, 2008, at 1:51 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:
than fast food - and I mean that kids like better, not JUST healthier.
Maybe fish and rice just aren't foods your kids enjoy? You can make
fast-food like foods at home, even. Instead of fast-food french fries,
make your own. Let the kids choose different seasonings to try on
them. Bake them instead of frying them.
Maybe you could take it as a challenge - come up with a set of foods
that the kids choose over a stop at a fast food place.
Also, if they're wanting to stop when you're driving by, that might be
a sign that you've got somewhat hungry kids in the car - take more
snacks along with you.
Instead of forbidding or restricting fast food - make the alternatives
much more enticing. Help them KNOW that it is possible to fix healthy
foods that are even better than fast food.
It works. I have a 17 yo, 20 yo, and 23 yo -- they could eat all the
fast food they want, they have their own money and are out on their
own quite often. They take food with them a lot. Yesterday my 17 yo
needed to buy some lunch when she was out and she stopped at a 7-11
and bought bananas and peanut butter. Kind of a strange lunch? Still -
healthy enough. She could have had pizza or a hamburger and fries.
Even when they EAT fast food, they choose the healthiest food they
can. They LIKE the feeling of being healthy, and wholesome foods are
what appeals most to them. They didn't get this habit from me
restricting them. They got it by being used to making their own
choices, with me providing lots of good options to choose from.
Sometimes they would say, "We're hungry, we want to stop at ......"
Then I'd say, "We could do that. Or we could go home and eat
that ..... that we made yesterday." Fill in with some yummy thing
that we have at home that I know they'd really like. You might have
to work at having those cool choices available at home, but it'll be
habit after a while.
You sound kind of like you think all the healthy choices are
automatically less appealing to the kids -- fish and rice sounds dull.
But breakfast cookies or homemade bread and peanut butter or homemade
granola or trail mix? We make brown basmati rice with cherries in it -
that's a big favorite. Most kids have a few veggies they really like.
Most like to dip some kind of veggie in something like ranch dressing.
Experiment with healthy dips! We do a LOT of plain fat-free yogurt
with cucumber very finely chopped up in it along with dried mint or
dried dill. Sometimes we put some raisins in it. Sometimes we put
chopped walnuts in it. This makes a great dip for toasted whole wheat
pita bread or for those baby carrots or sticks of jicama or cucumber
sticks. Sliced apples are a big favorite - sprinkled with cinnamon -
cold or warmed up. I often put a handful of multi-grain Cheerios into
a bowl with some fat-free flavored yogurt. Because we always have
plain fat-free yogurt in the fridge, I often flavor it myself with all
kinds of things that people might think are strange, but they're fun -
cinnamon, vanilla, lemon zest, cocoa powder, peanut butter, garlic,
and on and on. If you're making a flavor that you want sweet - you can
add a little honey.
So - I guess what I'm saying is that instead of restricting, focus on
being creative and put the effort into providing child-friendly
healthy and fun food. Also, kids often don't really care about "meals"
- they enjoy grazing throughout the day. So they may not be very
hungry for dinner, but snacking like that's very healthy and let's you
focus your mealtime more on what you and your spouse might enjoy
without worrying whether the kids are getting the nutrition they need.
You might enjoy reading, "In Defense of Food," by Michael Pollan
(author of the Omnivore's Dilemma). It is about how we've stopped
thinking of food as "food" and think of it as nutrients, instead.
Really thought-provoking - easy reading (easier than The Omnivore's
Dilemma which I found kind of boring to get through, even though I
liked what he had to say).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm a certified health nut and I take my child to McDonald's when theyYou really can make food that is healthy, at home, that is WAY better
> ask.
> But how often do they ask? If they asked every day, would you take
> them
> there? Our kids hardly ever asked to go to fast food restaurants
> before we
> moved last summer. But when we were between houses for 3 months, we
> ate out
> almost every night. Since then, our children have been asking to eat
> fast
> food almost every time we pass one. They think it's normal now. And
> the
> problem is that fast food tastes good. If you don't know (or think
> about)
> what's in it, then it's much yummier than fish and rice for dinner.
than fast food - and I mean that kids like better, not JUST healthier.
Maybe fish and rice just aren't foods your kids enjoy? You can make
fast-food like foods at home, even. Instead of fast-food french fries,
make your own. Let the kids choose different seasonings to try on
them. Bake them instead of frying them.
Maybe you could take it as a challenge - come up with a set of foods
that the kids choose over a stop at a fast food place.
Also, if they're wanting to stop when you're driving by, that might be
a sign that you've got somewhat hungry kids in the car - take more
snacks along with you.
Instead of forbidding or restricting fast food - make the alternatives
much more enticing. Help them KNOW that it is possible to fix healthy
foods that are even better than fast food.
It works. I have a 17 yo, 20 yo, and 23 yo -- they could eat all the
fast food they want, they have their own money and are out on their
own quite often. They take food with them a lot. Yesterday my 17 yo
needed to buy some lunch when she was out and she stopped at a 7-11
and bought bananas and peanut butter. Kind of a strange lunch? Still -
healthy enough. She could have had pizza or a hamburger and fries.
Even when they EAT fast food, they choose the healthiest food they
can. They LIKE the feeling of being healthy, and wholesome foods are
what appeals most to them. They didn't get this habit from me
restricting them. They got it by being used to making their own
choices, with me providing lots of good options to choose from.
Sometimes they would say, "We're hungry, we want to stop at ......"
Then I'd say, "We could do that. Or we could go home and eat
that ..... that we made yesterday." Fill in with some yummy thing
that we have at home that I know they'd really like. You might have
to work at having those cool choices available at home, but it'll be
habit after a while.
You sound kind of like you think all the healthy choices are
automatically less appealing to the kids -- fish and rice sounds dull.
But breakfast cookies or homemade bread and peanut butter or homemade
granola or trail mix? We make brown basmati rice with cherries in it -
that's a big favorite. Most kids have a few veggies they really like.
Most like to dip some kind of veggie in something like ranch dressing.
Experiment with healthy dips! We do a LOT of plain fat-free yogurt
with cucumber very finely chopped up in it along with dried mint or
dried dill. Sometimes we put some raisins in it. Sometimes we put
chopped walnuts in it. This makes a great dip for toasted whole wheat
pita bread or for those baby carrots or sticks of jicama or cucumber
sticks. Sliced apples are a big favorite - sprinkled with cinnamon -
cold or warmed up. I often put a handful of multi-grain Cheerios into
a bowl with some fat-free flavored yogurt. Because we always have
plain fat-free yogurt in the fridge, I often flavor it myself with all
kinds of things that people might think are strange, but they're fun -
cinnamon, vanilla, lemon zest, cocoa powder, peanut butter, garlic,
and on and on. If you're making a flavor that you want sweet - you can
add a little honey.
So - I guess what I'm saying is that instead of restricting, focus on
being creative and put the effort into providing child-friendly
healthy and fun food. Also, kids often don't really care about "meals"
- they enjoy grazing throughout the day. So they may not be very
hungry for dinner, but snacking like that's very healthy and let's you
focus your mealtime more on what you and your spouse might enjoy
without worrying whether the kids are getting the nutrition they need.
You might enjoy reading, "In Defense of Food," by Michael Pollan
(author of the Omnivore's Dilemma). It is about how we've stopped
thinking of food as "food" and think of it as nutrients, instead.
Really thought-provoking - easy reading (easier than The Omnivore's
Dilemma which I found kind of boring to get through, even though I
liked what he had to say).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 4, 2008, at 2:40 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:
those beliefs, there is a set of principles about how parents can
support learning in their children. But, the principles are broad,
they don't tell you what to do, when to do it, how to do it.
What we do, as unschoolers, is constantly consider how to apply those
broad principles to the particular situations and circumstances that
arise in our own real lives.
So I, for example, am constantly asking myself, "How can I support my
child's interest?"
To relate this to the fast-food issue. I answer that by asking myself,
"How can I support my child's interest in eating fast food?"
Then I go on to think about what it IS about the fast food that my
child is really interested in. Is it because it is right there -
quickly in her hands when she's hungry? If so, I will work on having
food with us that is quickly available when we're out and about. Etc.
Each of us has to do this thinking and pondering and creative thinking
for ourselves.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Unschooling is notIt is not a "method." Right! You've got it.
> about a formula for teaching/learning.
> There are no rules to follow. It isIt is a sort of set of basic beliefs about how humans learn. Based on
> about a way of thinking.
those beliefs, there is a set of principles about how parents can
support learning in their children. But, the principles are broad,
they don't tell you what to do, when to do it, how to do it.
What we do, as unschoolers, is constantly consider how to apply those
broad principles to the particular situations and circumstances that
arise in our own real lives.
So I, for example, am constantly asking myself, "How can I support my
child's interest?"
To relate this to the fast-food issue. I answer that by asking myself,
"How can I support my child's interest in eating fast food?"
Then I go on to think about what it IS about the fast food that my
child is really interested in. Is it because it is right there -
quickly in her hands when she's hungry? If so, I will work on having
food with us that is quickly available when we're out and about. Etc.
Each of us has to do this thinking and pondering and creative thinking
for ourselves.
> I think someone here (was it you, Joyce?) said-pam
> that it is more about learning how to give each of your children
> what THEY
> need to learn and grow. Like when my baby cries, I know what she
> needs,
> because I know her. I finally get that. Yea!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 4, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
A LOT. I wasn't saying to lecture little kids. I was saying that
telling them fast food is unhealthy is really overstating it and you
lose your credibility if you're not scrupulously honest with your
kids. Truth: fast food places tend to offer much-too-large servings,
too much salt, and too much fat. Truth: you can eat there and be
healthy, but we adults tend to eat what we're served so we overeat and
consume a lot of salt and fat. (But are your kids overeating or do
they eat until they're full and stop.) Truth: fast food places offer
more and more healthy alternatives, especially those aimed at kids, so
that's great! Truth: you don't need to balance your nutrition for
every meal. Fast food tends to be short ofn fruits and veggies, so
have more of those at other times. Truth: eating fast food won't kill
you or make you sick unless you choose it really a lot, and make poor
fast-food choices, over years. In fact, turns out that fat, even
saturated fat, may not EVER have been the big problem we've all been
taught it was. Transfats, partially hydrogenated vegetable oils, seem
to be a far more guilty culprit and, these days, are disappearing even
from fast food. Salt - probably not a problem for children, more for
adults prone to high blood pressure.
So - take a fresh look at fast food maybe with a more open mind.
I'm pretty sure Ren's kids are picking up on what is more or less
healthy because she, herself, is interested in that and models healthy
eating. So do I. I don't have to lecture the kids, I don't have to
make any special effort to tell them. It comes up naturally and they
learn, by making their own choices, what is healthy for themselves.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ~~But at some point (lespeciallyRight. My kids are old now and they know a whole lot about nutrition.
> when they are really young), don't you just have to say "No."
> Otherwise, it turns into a lecture.~~
>
> No lecture. No "no". Just eat the food in joy and peace and it will be
> healthy. Really.
> As they grow, trust that the ideas of healthy vs. unhealthy will be
> part of their learning process like everything else they're learning.
A LOT. I wasn't saying to lecture little kids. I was saying that
telling them fast food is unhealthy is really overstating it and you
lose your credibility if you're not scrupulously honest with your
kids. Truth: fast food places tend to offer much-too-large servings,
too much salt, and too much fat. Truth: you can eat there and be
healthy, but we adults tend to eat what we're served so we overeat and
consume a lot of salt and fat. (But are your kids overeating or do
they eat until they're full and stop.) Truth: fast food places offer
more and more healthy alternatives, especially those aimed at kids, so
that's great! Truth: you don't need to balance your nutrition for
every meal. Fast food tends to be short ofn fruits and veggies, so
have more of those at other times. Truth: eating fast food won't kill
you or make you sick unless you choose it really a lot, and make poor
fast-food choices, over years. In fact, turns out that fat, even
saturated fat, may not EVER have been the big problem we've all been
taught it was. Transfats, partially hydrogenated vegetable oils, seem
to be a far more guilty culprit and, these days, are disappearing even
from fast food. Salt - probably not a problem for children, more for
adults prone to high blood pressure.
So - take a fresh look at fast food maybe with a more open mind.
I'm pretty sure Ren's kids are picking up on what is more or less
healthy because she, herself, is interested in that and models healthy
eating. So do I. I don't have to lecture the kids, I don't have to
make any special effort to tell them. It comes up naturally and they
learn, by making their own choices, what is healthy for themselves.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
I wouldn't end up saying no. Well, I wouldn't be giving all the other information either. I'd just go over and get some McDonalds. But it isn't a particularly desired good in my family. They used to go, largely to get the toys. But the food wasn't that appealling to Simon or Linnaea. Sometimes they want it. Sometimes so do I. But they don't like food that isn't as tasty as what we make at home. We ate at the zoo a few weeks ago, got some french fries and something else, and nobody enjoyed the food. So we make a point of bringing drinks and snacks from home when we go to the zoo.
Usually at night more than one evening meal is made. Usually David and I have one thing and Simon or Linnaea may share, but then either Simon or Linnaea usually want their own thing. Tonight David and I had a shrimp curry, Simon had a bean and cheese burrito and Linnaea and her friend and baked potatoes with baked beans. The bean and cheese burrito was easy, just thrown together from leftovers. Baked potatoes and baked beans are easy as well. The shrimp curry is David's doing, so it wasn't a lot more work for me than a normal meal, nor for David, really. Dinner for them is less of a focus than it is for David or I. They eat when they are hungry throughout the day. I like having at least one clear meal in a day. And I enjoy making it. But I don't need them to eat it. I only offer it as a gift.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
How about letting them know that it is very tempting and easy to eat
too many unhealthy foods at fast food places - that they make the
servings way oversized, that they use a lot of fat and salt, which is
probably fine for once in a while but not good on a regular basis.
Good point. I think I generally do this. But at some point (lespecially
when they are really young), don't you just have to say "No." Otherwise, it
turns into a lecture.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Usually at night more than one evening meal is made. Usually David and I have one thing and Simon or Linnaea may share, but then either Simon or Linnaea usually want their own thing. Tonight David and I had a shrimp curry, Simon had a bean and cheese burrito and Linnaea and her friend and baked potatoes with baked beans. The bean and cheese burrito was easy, just thrown together from leftovers. Baked potatoes and baked beans are easy as well. The shrimp curry is David's doing, so it wasn't a lot more work for me than a normal meal, nor for David, really. Dinner for them is less of a focus than it is for David or I. They eat when they are hungry throughout the day. I like having at least one clear meal in a day. And I enjoy making it. But I don't need them to eat it. I only offer it as a gift.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
How about letting them know that it is very tempting and easy to eat
too many unhealthy foods at fast food places - that they make the
servings way oversized, that they use a lot of fat and salt, which is
probably fine for once in a while but not good on a regular basis.
Good point. I think I generally do this. But at some point (lespecially
when they are really young), don't you just have to say "No." Otherwise, it
turns into a lecture.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]