DJ250

I'm being pretty patient by my standards but I'm just itchin' for my girls to read, esp. my 9 y.o.. She's getting made fun-of a bit by two of her peers in the neighborhood, though that's also been about her math. I told her (both of them, actually--my other gal is 7) that those kids are being made to learn reading and math and that she can learn it anytime she's ready so not to worry about it. She got out the calculator and began writing down problems and their solutions so she could show them she knows it.

I'm just wondering if there's anything else I should be doing besides reading to them, getting books (at their request) about their interests, telling them how to spell things when they ask, etc. Both WANT to learn to read so the desire is there. How did your kids learn to read and when?

Thanks,
~Melissa :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

I was going to reply about 'getting out the calculator', to say I would
explain to your daughter that the calculator may be the easier way to go
about impressing her neighbors, but that the 'easier' way is not always the
best (does she really want to memorize some math problems and there answers?
what will that prove, to whom? I think these are valid questions to have
even a 7 y.o. think about)

Then I realized the point of your post was about reading, and you say they
WANT to learn to read. So, to be able to help you I guess my first questions
to you would be about the specifics of where your daughters are in the
continuum of reading development. Do they know their alphabet? Recognize
individual letter sounds? Consonant sounds only? Short vowel sounds? Do they
know that a single vowel can stand for different sounds depending on what's
next to it (among other things)? Do they enjoy being read to? Can they
follow along word by word when they're read to? And so on and on! I could
ask a lot more specific questions such as this, but my point is, the more
you tell about where each of them are, the easier it would be to see what
the next step is, and in my opinion, helping children learn to read (as
helping them with lots of other things, including math) has a lot to do with
meeting them where they're at and holding their hand as they climb to the
next step, so to speak. Does that make sense?

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 12:17 PM, DJ250 <dj250@...> wrote:

> I'm being pretty patient by my standards but I'm just itchin' for my
> girls to read, esp. my 9 y.o.. She's getting made fun-of a bit by two of
> her peers in the neighborhood, though that's also been about her math. I
> told her (both of them, actually--my other gal is 7) that those kids are
> being made to learn reading and math and that she can learn it anytime she's
> ready so not to worry about it. She got out the calculator and began writing
> down problems and their solutions so she could show them she knows it.
>
> I'm just wondering if there's anything else I should be doing besides
> reading to them, getting books (at their request) about their interests,
> telling them how to spell things when they ask, etc. Both WANT to learn to
> read so the desire is there. How did your kids learn to read and when?
>
> Thanks,
> ~Melissa :)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

Simon is 10 (will be 11 in 2 and a bit weeks) and he isn't really reading yet. He is working on it, and there is a lot of pleasure and excitement in him to have the words decode, but he isn't fluent. I wouldn't class him as a reader. Linnaea, who just turned 8, has been reading since she was 6. There was nothing different, really, noticeably, in their environment. Just a variation in nature. I wouldn't worry. But, then, I did my worrying a while ago and now, well, Simon is so amazing in so many ways, and reading hasn't limited him in the ways it limits both Linnaea and me. When we play games Simon can find things much more quickly than either Linnaea and I as we wait for the text to give us the clues.

There are some great reading stories over at http://sandradodd.com/reading .

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----
From: DJ250 <dj250@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March, 2008 7:17:58 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] when did your kid(s) learn to read?

I'm being pretty patient by my standards but I'm just itchin' for my girls to read, esp. my 9 y.o.. She's getting made fun-of a bit by two of her peers in the neighborhood, though that's also been about her math. I told her (both of them, actually--my other gal is 7) that those kids are being made to learn reading and math and that she can learn it anytime she's ready so not to worry about it. She got out the calculator and began writing down problems and their solutions so she could show them she knows it.

I'm just wondering if there's anything else I should be doing besides reading to them, getting books (at their request) about their interests, telling them how to spell things when they ask, etc. Both WANT to learn to read so the desire is there. How did your kids learn to read and when?

Thanks,
~Melissa :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Gehrke

Ashton who is 12 has just crossed over in the last year to being a
fullfledged reader.

She is buying and devouring magazines and reads online a lot.

Olivia is not there yet. She just turned eight. But is starting to have
a sincere interest. Asking what words say and reading several words on
some games we play.

My boys are all really good readers, after they recovered from their
school experience.

Susan Wiltbank

I usually don't answer many of these, but this is one I can do :0). Jordan, my 15yo ds really dislikes reading. He always has, since learning in public school, starting in K. They were both in public school until the 4th grade. He will read if he has to. He wanted his hunting license so he studied and read, passed with flying colors. He wants to get his license and his GED, he is reading and studying for both. But he will not read just for the love of reading.
Skylor, my 14yo dd loves to read since learning in 1st grade. Since she learned to read she has been going non-stop. Once she decides on a subject or an author she goes to it full force. She found and purchased the entire Nancy Drew set and has read them all repeatedly. She is also interested in getting her GED early and is studying and reading for it.
Susie
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathleen Gehrke<mailto:gehrkes@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: when did your kid(s) learn to read?


Ashton who is 12 has just crossed over in the last year to being a
fullfledged reader.

She is buying and devouring magazines and reads online a lot.

Olivia is not there yet. She just turned eight. But is starting to have
a sincere interest. Asking what words say and reading several words on
some games we play.

My boys are all really good readers, after they recovered from their
school experience.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vickisue Gray

Reading: My first born started reading around age two or younger.
This was due to me placing common words in big red print all over
the house and playing games with her. It was lots of fun.

My step-daughter learned to read at age five, in the slide in camper
as we traveled from Florida to Alaska. She loved playing the Nintendo64
we installed but couldn't read a word at the begining of the trip. By the
time we got home, she was a full fledged reader.

My youngest learned to read with hooked on phonics around
four or five. He knew some words earlier like helicoptor but it was the
HOP computer program that really kicked up his reading interest.
(He's been into computers & games ever since.) I didn't know just
how good he read until I pulled him out of school and found that they
had tested him at the end of first grade and he was reading above an
eighth grade level.

My point? Each child has their own triggers and what works for one
doesn't always work for the other. The trick is to not force the issue
yet find interesting things that make reading intriguing for that child.
For some it's comics, for some it's video games, for some it's signs
along the road. If they have no reason to read, they probably won't
desire to read. If you read, chances are they will too.

What I've found the most interesting, is the kids I know who are forced
to read, hate it the most. Lead by example.

Peace & laughter,
Vicki







____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

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Shileen Nixon

My boys are night and day with reading. My oldest turned 20 this
year. He started early and caught on quickly in kindergarten (we
started homeschooling in first grade). He loved books out of the
womb and still does to this day. My youngest on the other hand is
about to turn 15. He's never liked books/reading. We read to him
when he was little and still do but he could take it or leave it most
of the time. He's just not a book type of guy. I worry about it
sometimes. He's never read a full chapter book in his life. Video
games has helped improve his skills as he is motivated to read in
that setting. Sometimes I panic and want to give him reading
"assignments" but I rarely follow through. When I have it's been
short lived. We are almost always reading a book together which
means I read aloud to him. We've also discovered books on tape
recently. Together we listened to the first Harry Potter book while
he played WOW and I would either crochet or play my own Internet
games. It's going to be interesting next year when it's time to get
his license. He will need to study the book and take a test.
Course... that's an entire year from now. A lot can happen between
now and then.

Shileen

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barefootmamax4

Rainy learned when he was about 7 1/2.He was 4 when he wanted to learn
and we started with Bob books and some phonics. He liked doing the
books ,but he didn't really get it until 7 1/2. Now he reads everything!
Phoenix was not interested in reading at all until about age 8.He
learned pretty quickly though. Tia is 7 now and often asks how to write
things,but rarely reads. Interestingly, the boys don't write anything
unless they really need to, but Tia writes just for the fun of it all
the time. For my kids, the most important thing is that it's something
they really want to read.

-Kelly

Shileen Nixon

On Mar 27, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
>

> in my opinion, helping children learn to read (as
> helping them with lots of other things, including math) has a lot
> to do with
> meeting them where they're at and holding their hand as they climb
> to the
> next step, so to speak. Does that make sense?
>








Funny, I was thinking of this very thing earlier today. Occasionally
I get freaked out about where my DS 14 is. This time of year I begin
to think about what we're going to do next school year. I know... a
sure sign that I'm not de-schooled. I suppose that's why I am
immersing myself in unschool reading at the moment. At 14 almost 15
he struggles with reading and writing. It worries me. I find myself
thinking about what we're going to do ... how are we going to get him
where he needs to be. And then I catch myself because I realize
he's right where he "needs" to be ... and I "need" to meet him where
he is. He is where he is ... he is who he is. This gives me a sense
of relief on one hand ... but on the other I know that I could be
doing better by him ... like in "strewing his path". I've just been
so darned brain dead ... I am tapped out of ideas. I'm confident,
though, that it will come as I continue to de-school and relax. In
the mean time DS continues to brilliantly play WOW, play his drums,
and when the weather is nice he's out biking or playing airsoft.

Shileen





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

>> So, to be able to help you I guess my first questions
>> to you would be about the specifics of where your daughters are in
>> the
>> continuum of reading development. Do they know their alphabet?

That's assuming that children can be taught to read.

Children can be supported in a print environment where reading has
pleasant associations. When they're *developmentally ready*, then
they'll read.

If children could be taught to read then schools would work like a
charm. Educators been trying to find a process for decades and yet
kids still can't read or end up hating reading.

> those kids are being made to learn reading and math and that she
> can learn it anytime she's ready so not to worry about it.

Don't make the mistake of suggesting to your daughter that there's
something wrong with her or that she's not working hard enough. It
will come when it comes. Yes, it's frustrating! Lots of kids try for
hours to ride a bike when they want and they just aren't
developmentally ready. Then the next summer, a few minutes and
they're up riding.

She won't learn until she's *developmentally* ready, until all the
brain areas that are needed to decode for reading are matured.

She does, though, need pleasant experiences with the printed word
before she's developmentally ready, just as we need to speak to kids
before they're ready to understand our words.

> She's getting made fun-of a bit by two of her peers in the
> neighborhood, though that's also been about her math.

What can she do that they can't? Make a list on the refrigerator and
keep adding to it. I would focus there rather than on her perceived
deficiencies.

> Both WANT to learn to read so the desire is there. How did your
> kids learn to read and when?

I don't know when my daughter could read but it was difficult for her
when she was younger so she didn't. It wasn't until she was 11 or so
that she actually picked up a book to read for pleasure. (It's a
common story! That kids don't read books on their own until they
discover some adult level book that hooks them. Very common is
Stephen King ;-) Hers was Janet Evanovich.)

I think Pam Sorooshian recommended a book that was about reading
strategies a while ago, how looking at pictures was part of reading
and so on. I can't seem to find the title.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
?
>
> That's assuming that children can be taught to read.
>
> Children can be supported in a print environment where reading
has
> pleasant associations. When they're *developmentally ready*, then
> they'll read.
>
> If children could be taught to read then schools would work like a
> charm. Educators been trying to find a process for decades and yet
> kids still can't read or end up hating reading.


Could you clarify "assuming children can be taught to read"? Are you
saying that a parent should do nothing except go about their business
and when a child is deveopmentally ready they will just read because
they are surrounded by print? What about a kid who sees a workbook
and really wants to do it? What about asking what an "f" looks like
or "how do you write horse"? Pointing out that "oa" makes a long o
sound?
-Kelly

Barbara Perez

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 2:27 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
wrote:

> >> So, to be able to help you I guess my first questions
> >> to you would be about the specifics of where your daughters are in
> >> the
> >> continuum of reading development. Do they know their alphabet?
>
> >That's assuming that children can be taught to read.
>




>
> >Children can be supported in a print environment where reading has
> pleasant associations. When they're *developmentally ready*, then
> they'll read.
>









I beg to disagree here. But not about whether a child that's developmentally
ready will read. I'm disagreeing with the implication that there's no use
in figuring out *where* in that development continuum a child is, that they
may not benefit from "hand-holding" (ad opposed to "pushing") them through
the next developmental step. An analogy would be an infant taking their
first steps, "cruising" by supporting themselves to furniture. This is a
common developmental step between not walking, and walking on their own. The
role of providing the furniture (and perhaps getting the sharp corner of
that glass coffee table out of the way, to stretch the analogy) is what I
believe the adults should be for the emerging reader. You can call it
teaching if you want, I see it more as facilitating, supporting. Yes,
without it, the child will probably eventually still get up and start
walking on their own. But if the parents see that there's a way to make it a
little bit easier and less frustrating for the child that's stuck and WANTS
to get up, what's the harm in helping them by showing them how? Did you ever
bend over to let an infant grasp your fingers for balance while taking a few
steps? If you did, you know the joy of that shared experience. I believe
it's the same with reading: It won't do any good to try and help at a
certain step the child is not ready for (which is, by the way, why schools
don't work!) But when you bother to observe and listen to your child and
find out exactly where it is they are, there are things you CAN do (indirect
things, such as answer a question, strew their paths, and other things such
as have been talked about on this board in the past) other than sit back and
let them figure it out.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

Shileen,
I would ask you the same questions about where exactly in the developmental
reading continuum your son is at. NOT for you to *worry about*, but just as
information you can use to help him. You said "he struggles with reading and
writing". So is he getting stuck due to a lack of fluency? The fact that
it's writing as well as reading makes me think it's not a comprehension
issue but more of a "putting sounds together/taking them apart" issue. You
mentioned he shines at WoW, so I assume he's intelligent in the sense that
he can think logically and understand complex patterns, etc. What is his
oral language like? I mean, does he tend to speak in short sentences, does
he have a rich vocabulary, does he have a sense of flow when he talks about
events that have happened, etc, etc. At this point I would focus on his
writing since at his age he probably has things to say (well, every age does
of course, but I haven't yet met a teenager without strong opinions! :)
Also, through improving his writing, his reading will improve. So, what is
it about his writing that demoralizes him so as not to want to keep trying?
For kids that struggle with handwriting an obvious way to circumvent that
would be to encourage him to type on the computer, with the explicit goal of
improving his writing (IF that is his goal...you mentioned being
concerned...is he??? I should have asked this first right at the top of the
post! Because if it's a case of "bringing a horse to water..." you could be
spinning your wheels in the air here!)
See, facilitating someone's learning IMO takes more than just not worrying
too much (although that is a fundamental aspect of it! Worry tends to block
what we can do to help!) It's first knowing that the horse is thirsty so to
speak :) and then clearing the path between the horse and the river, which
means standing right next to the horse and looking at the ground he'll be
stepping on, one step at a time, to see what kind of rocks, holes in the
ground, and quicksand is in the way...OK, NOW I've taken that analogy too
far! :) Hope this helps!

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Shileen Nixon <shileennixon@...> wrote:

>
> On Mar 27, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
> >
>
> > in my opinion, helping children learn to read (as
> > helping them with lots of other things, including math) has a lot
> > to do with
> > meeting them where they're at and holding their hand as they climb
> > to the
> > next step, so to speak. Does that make sense?
> >
>
> Funny, I was thinking of this very thing earlier today. Occasionally
> I get freaked out about where my DS 14 is. This time of year I begin
> to think about what we're going to do next school year. I know... a
> sure sign that I'm not de-schooled. I suppose that's why I am
> immersing myself in unschool reading at the moment. At 14 almost 15
> he struggles with reading and writing. It worries me. I find myself
> thinking about what we're going to do ... how are we going to get him
> where he needs to be. And then I catch myself because I realize
> he's right where he "needs" to be ... and I "need" to meet him where
> he is. He is where he is ... he is who he is. This gives me a sense
> of relief on one hand ... but on the other I know that I could be
> doing better by him ... like in "strewing his path". I've just been
> so darned brain dead ... I am tapped out of ideas. I'm confident,
> though, that it will come as I continue to de-school and relax. In
> the mean time DS continues to brilliantly play WOW, play his drums,
> and when the weather is nice he's out biking or playing airsoft.
>
> Shileen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>
>
> Could you clarify "assuming children can be taught to read"? Are you
> saying that a parent should do nothing except go about their business
> and when a child is deveopmentally ready they will just read because
> they are surrounded by print? What about a kid who sees a workbook
> and really wants to do it? What about asking what an "f" looks like
> or "how do you write horse"? Pointing out that "oa" makes a long o
> sound?
> -Kelly
>
>
Hmm. I don't think Joyce would advocate "do nothing except go about
their business." That might be considered the antithesis of unschooling.

But "when a child is developmentally ready" is true. And there's a
grain of truth in "they will just read because they are surrounded by
print." I'd say that was true for my daughter. But "surrounded by
print" almost sounds like you're thinking that plunking them in a
library and hoping they'll read what's in it, eventually, is what
we're talking about. It isn't.

Here's what I wrote about our experience, but hadn't sent yet:

***********

Dd showed signs of "reading readiness" around 7 or 8. Other than my
dh freaking out for a short while and trying to get her to sound out
words (which she rightly refused to do) instead of just providing the
word she was asking about, we just kept reading to her. She liked us
to read stories (fiction/history), but preferred to look at non-
fiction books herself (mostly about animals). I'm sure she was reading
at least some of what was in those books then, but she didn't want to
declare herself a reader until she, herself, felt competent.

Her reading began to take off when she started playing Zoo Tycoon and
similar computer games. To "get to the next level," she had to figure
words out. I was available if she wanted to know a certain word, but
eventually, she worked it out herself. It was kind of seamless; in
other words, there was no specific date that she was officially
"reading." But I'd say she was reading with fluency and comprehension
between the ages of 10 and 11.

Computer games, Nintendo DS games, Neopets, Webkinz, MMORPGs, strategy
guides, books, magazines, TV, Pokemon and other cards, manga, Betty
and Veronica comics, Calvin & Hobbes books, ZooBooks, Which Way USA
maps are just some of the "tools" she used to learn to read.

She *has* always been surrounded by print in our house. We are
readers ourselves, we own a lot of books and magazines, we use our
computers. My dh is a race car driver, but has written 7 books on the
subject. I'm a former sports magazine reporter and currently working
on an editing certificate. Words (and reading) mean something to us,
for sure.

So, we just "bathed her in words" from birth. But she learned to read
when *she* was ready. Mostly, she learned because she wanted to, in
order to do what she wanted to do.

*************
If your child really wants to do a workbook, go for it. Don't have a
lot of expectations around it, though (like "finishing" it). It might
just be fun practice for a short period of time for the child. Let it
be a step amongst many.

"Asking what an "f" looks like or "how do you write horse" both seem
designed to test a child's knowledge or skill. I recommend against
that (see above "sounding out" fiasco, which in my dd's case, stopped
her from wanting anything to do with reading for a while).

You *can* point things out as a matter of course - while you are
reading to your child, for instance. Make it fun. But stop if you get
resistance. If I saw my dd's eyes glaze over while I was showing her
something "neat" (it was to me), that was a big clue. "Keep reading,
mum" was another <g>.

Robin B.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 28, 2008, at 11:53 AM, barefootmamax4 wrote:

> Could you clarify "assuming children can be taught to read"?

Teaching is pushing information in.

Learning is pulling information in.

> What about a kid who sees a workbook
> and really wants to do it?

What about a kid who sees a coloring book and really wants to do it?

> What about asking what an "f" looks like
> or "how do you write horse"?

What about asking what a tiger looks like or how to draw a light saber?

> Pointing out that "oa" makes a long o
> sound?

If you see that there's something different about the things you
listed and the things I listed, there's still too much school in your
head! :-)

If a child is interested, it's something interesting to the child.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

Well, I would say *bad* teaching is "trying to push information in". As
opposed to appropriate, helpful teaching (the kind that rarely if ever
happens in schools) which could be described as "gently holding information
in front of the child and joyously watching as they pull it in".

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
wrote:

>
> On Mar 28, 2008, at 11:53 AM, barefootmamax4 wrote:
>
> > Could you clarify "assuming children can be taught to read"?
>
> Teaching is pushing information in.
>
> Learning is pulling information in.
>
> > What about a kid who sees a workbook
> > and really wants to do it?
>
> What about a kid who sees a coloring book and really wants to do it?
>
> > What about asking what an "f" looks like
> > or "how do you write horse"?
>
> What about asking what a tiger looks like or how to draw a light saber?
>
> > Pointing out that "oa" makes a long o
> > sound?
>
> If you see that there's something different about the things you
> listed and the things I listed, there's still too much school in your
> head! :-)
>
> If a child is interested, it's something interesting to the child.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

A nice book that documents how a child learns to read all by himself is
"Gnys at Work".

So many of John Holt's books talk about letting a child learn to read at
their own pace, too.

All that really needs to be done is to answer the questions the child asks;
and read to them. They don't even need to be corrected in their spelling.
They will use "inventive spelling" once they learn what words/letters sound
like. Then, when they are reading on their own, they will catch their own
"misspellings".

Some children are ready to read at 4 and others may not be ready to learn
until they are 9. Their is such a wide range; and that is why school does not
work. It tries to teach all children to read at the same time.

My son is 5. He loves numbers, but could care less about letters. He is
adding, subtracting, counting by multiples. But, when he sees a letter, he has
not interest. He "reads" the makes of cars by the emblems on the cars; and
"reads" numbers everywhere. So, in his own unique way, he is reading what is
important to him.

Now, a friend of his learned to read at 5. She is reading fluently very
large words. She does not care about numbers. So each child is so different
and unique.

Enjoy this journey. The growing mind is such a fascinating, awesome thing
to just sit back watch, and answer questions when asked.

Warmly,
Cynthia



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> What about a kid who sees a workbook and really wants to do it?

Does the kid have total control to do the workbook anyway he/she
chooses? Maybe skipping pages? Maybe circling things instead of
writing full words and/or sentences?

> What about asking what an "f" looks like

Is the answer specific to what the child's question, or is this
being used as an opportunity to have an alphabet lesson?

> or "how do you write horse"? Pointing out that "oa" makes a long o
> sound?
> -Kelly

Answering questions is a good thing. I had to learn to be careful
not to turn simple questions into lessons. I still catch myself
wanting to do that sometimes.

My two younger children learned to read on their own at early ages.
We've always had lots of books around, reading aloud, paper,
crayons, pencils, markers, and computers. My kids were playing
games on the computer as toddlers. They just had lots of fun. I'll
admit that when we actually started homeschooling, before I learned
about unschooling, I pushed when I shouldn't have. I tried to do
teaching in a fun way but the kids really did so much better when I
just let them be. I remember my youngest daughter loved for me to
make dotted letters and words so she could trace them. But she knew
what she wanted me to write. My son loved to narrate stories
(books, tv shows, and imagination) while I wrote them down because
he hated writing. I just followed their leads. :)

Rambling again,
Beth M.

keetry

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> (It's a
> common story! That kids don't read books on their own until they
> discover some adult level book that hooks them. Very common is
> Stephen King ;-)
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I can't remember how old my oldest, now 17, was when he started
reading. He attended school regularly until he was 12, btw. I do
remember in 4th or 5th grade he got in trouble in school for
bringing a Stephen King book to read during their quiet reading
time. The teacher actually told both of us that he could not have
the book in the classroom because it was too scary even though she
hadn't even read it. It was one of King's milder books. I can't
remember the title now but it was about a girl who loved baseball
who got lost in the woods. Oh yea, The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, I
believe. Harry Potter is at least as scary and violent, probably
more so, but that was ok. I couldn't believe it. He was 10 or 11 and
reading an adult level book and his teacher forbid it!

Alysia

Ren Allen

~~I would ask you the same questions about where exactly in the
developmental reading continuum your son is at.~~

There is no pre-set continuum. That's a myth. Some people seem to pick
things up in increments that look like school. Most don't.

Jared (14) learned to read at the age of 12. There was no obvious
continuum for him that was visible to anyone else. To try and figure
that out would have invaded his comfort and space. I don't think it's
good advice to tell parents to figure out where on the "continuum"
their child is if unschooling is going to blossom.

You know what your child knows and doesn't know...until they know
something new and different. So understanding that a child knows
his/her a,b,c's will help how? Understanding that they can recognize a
few words helps how?

Being comfortable with natural learning includes letting go of the
idea that kids will learn things in any way resembling school. Jared
never learned the alphabet sounds, never sounded words out and helping
him figure those things out would have only impeded him. I know this
because a couple times when he was frustrated over not being able to
read we tried pointing out a few things. It doesn't work that way for him.

He learned words by recognizing the entire word. He slowly had enough
symbols (entire words) that were recognizable to where he could read.

Every person learns so very differently. A child that wants to grasp
letter sounds and word sounds will not leave you alone for asking!
"What sound does this make?" will probably be a common question for a
very long time. Reading to kids and for kids, making your home print
rich and trusting time are really all you need.

Some children may be more determined to figure it out. They will ask
questions, you can be a resource. When the questions stop, you stop.
Trust sometimes means that you help them be comfortable with where
they are today, rather than jump on every frustration as a reason to
"teach" them anything.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
> >
> Hmm. I don't think Joyce would advocate "do nothing except go
about
> their business." That might be considered the antithesis of
unschooling.

Well, maybe I put that badly.What I meant was not ignoring your
child, but doing what we normally do because word are all around
anyway, like reading the paper or reading books with your
kids,grocery lists and so on as compared to actively trying to teach
that "a" says "ah" kind of thing.

> She *has* always been surrounded by print in our house. We are
> readers ourselves, we own a lot of books and magazines, we use our
> computers.

Yes, this is what I mean by surrounded in print,not plunking them in
a library.


> "Asking what an "f" looks like or "how do you write horse" both
seem
> designed to test a child's knowledge or skill. I recommend against
> that (see above "sounding out" fiasco, which in my dd's case,
stopped
> her from wanting anything to do with reading for a while).

I must have not been clear here either. I did not mean the parent
asking the child (testing). I mean the kids asking the parents for
this information. My daughter is always asking me how to write
things, and I tell her.
-Kelly

barefootmamax4

Thanx Joyce, it is much clearer now. Although I can logically see the
sameness in our lists, there is a feeling that I am aware of deep down.
When they pick up that workbook I feel they are learning and like
Barbara mentioned , I have a tendency to take off on this interest and
start teaching/pushing.When they pick up a coloring book I feel that
it's a nice pastime but they are not working.I know this is not what I
want to believe, and logically I don't,but the feelings are there.Yes,
too much schooling in my head (or heart!).
-Kelly

j md

Joyce,
Thankyou so much for the comment about teaching versus learning.We are so new to unschooling and are trying to figure it all out...When someone makes something that seems like a complicated idea seem simple it can help a lot,

Luna
(who is in the process of unschooling both her hubby and herself as well as the kids :D)


----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 29 March, 2008 5:07:28 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: when did your kid(s) learn to read?


On Mar 28, 2008, at 11:53 AM, barefootmamax4 wrote:

> Could you clarify "assuming children can be taught to read"?

Teaching is pushing information in.

Learning is pulling information in.

> What about a kid who sees a workbook
> and really wants to do it?

What about a kid who sees a coloring book and really wants to do it?

> What about asking what an "f" looks like
> or "how do you write horse"?

What about asking what a tiger looks like or how to draw a light saber?

> Pointing out that "oa" makes a long o
> sound?

If you see that there's something different about the things you
listed and the things I listed, there's still too much school in your
head! :-)

If a child is interested, it's something interesting to the child.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 28, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:

> Well, I would say *bad* teaching is "trying to push information
> in". As
> opposed to appropriate, helpful teaching (the kind that rarely if ever
> happens in schools) which could be described as "gently holding
> information
> in front of the child and joyously watching as they pull it in".

You *could* describe teaching like that. Nothing linguistically wrong.

But that explanation is less likely to help someone understand
unschooling. Tying unschooling to a word that *also* means pushing
information in doesn't help new unschoolers break away from the idea
of putting information in that they think is important and embracing
the idea of supporting children's interests.

What if they don't joyously pull it in?

Why is the mom holding the information in front of the child?

(No need to answer on list. Those are just ideas to turn over.)

Much better *for understanding unschooling* is Sandra Dodd's concept
of stewing. Exposing kids to cool things. Leave things out that kids
can find. Take kids cool places that you think they'll enjoy. (Not
places you think it would be great if they enjoyed. Try to avoid a
"teaching" agenda.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 28, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:

> Did you ever
> bend over to let an infant grasp your fingers for balance while
> taking a few
> steps?

That comes naturally. No parent needs to figure out "*where* in that
development continuum a child is". Holding out a finger is equivalent
to noticing a child is reading "bed" as "bead" and pointing it out.
And even that, we don't need to do each time. It's a case by case
basis. Depends on the child's personality too. (So don't go to one
extreme and never do it nor the other extreme and always do it.)

The most profound learning happens when people make the connections
themselves.

All of:

> Do they know their alphabet? Recognize
> individual letter sounds? Consonant sounds only? Short vowel
> sounds? Do they
> know that a single vowel can stand for different sounds depending
> on what's
> next to it (among other things)? Do they enjoy being read to? Can they
> follow along word by word when they're read to? And so on and on!

is way too much analysis to help a child. *Much* better is to use
powers of observation to figure out what the child is doing and what
they're asking. Throw away school benchmarks. Look at your child.

As was pointed out, recognizing individual letter sounds was useless
to some children. Also, as was pointed out, lots of kids pick up
reading by absorbing whole words. A parent going through that
checklist will be looking outside their child for what the child
"should" do rather than looking at the child and what they can do and
want to do. To help your child figure out the world in their own
unique way, know your child, not some checklist (that quite possibly
has nothing to do with your child.)

On an assembly line, it's important to check off the processes the
teacher needs to run her product through in order to demonstrate to
the authorities that learning is taking place.

At home, neither the order is important nor the checklist itself.

I think the biggest barrier to unschooling of this suggestion is
creating the image in parents' minds that a child's reading could be
blocked for months and months with reading because they haven't
picked up "short vowel sounds" or "consonant sounds". While certainly
imaginable, does it happen with real unschooled children?

It's really pretty much impossible for a child to be stuck in that
state in a natural environment. The information is there. When
they're ready to absorb it, it may take a couple of days for the
"Aha!" to hit, but hit it will. (Unschoolers can infer the truth of
that from the fact that their teens read just fine :-)

Another barrier is creating the image of children being stuck because
one piece of information is missing. Again, imaginable. Again, does
it happen? It's way too much worry to place on a parent that their
child's learning is being blocked by a piece of information. It won't
help the parent relax into understanding that children are born to
learn. It won't help parents create a peaceful environment. It will
fill it full of worry.

If a child has a problem recognizing individual letter sounds -- and
no unschooling parent should be testing to see if this is true! -- or
any sticking point people naturally go through, much better to play
games, read poetry, read books, write lists. (Assuming the child
wants to!) Create a rich environment so that the information is there
for the child to puzzle out.

If someone sees an opportunity to hold out their finger to a child
who would like that finger, absolutely do so! If a child is holding
the hammer by the heavy end, they'd probably appreciate showing them
which way is more useful. (But step back if they turn it back around
again!) But there's no need to find checklists of skills. Kids will
figure it out. We just need to be there to help in support of their
quest.

Joyce

But *trust* that




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 28, 2008, at 12:35 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:

> Also, through improving his writing, his reading will improve.

Too much school thought.

In unschooling writing should be for the purpose of writing for
whatever the child needs it for, not for the purpose of reading.

To get unschooling flowing, it will help to not even think in those
terms. Think of right now.

> At this point I would focus on his
> writing

I would focus on the *child* and helping him do what *he* wants.

While I think some of what you're saying is what unschooling parents
will end up doing -- encourage typing instead of handwriting if a
child picked up in school some how that typing isn't writing -- too
much focus is on parents divining problems and coming up with
solutions. For the purpose of helping parents help their kids
unschool, there's too much focus on the problem, too much focus on
the parent as fixer, and not enough on helping the child help
himself. (Which is a much more useful skill in the long run!)

What Shileen wrote was very much unschooling thought:

"And then I catch myself because I realize he's right where he
"needs" to be ... and I "need" to meet him where he is. He is where
he is ... he is who he is."

Exactly.

> At 14 almost 15
> he struggles with reading and writing.

You might try asking him what he'd like to do and accomplish and
bring those goals here. People might have some ideas for him.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dana_burdick

Joyce Wrote:
Much better *for understanding unschooling* is Sandra Dodd's concept
of stewing. Exposing kids to cool things. Leave things out that kids
can find. Take kids cool places that you think they'll enjoy.
*****

I think Joyce means strewing not stewing. Nice to picture though -
children stewing in a big broth of cool stuff. <BWG>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 29, 2008, at 9:55 AM, dana_burdick wrote:

> I think Joyce means strewing not stewing. Nice to picture though -
> children stewing in a big broth of cool stuff. <BWG>

Yeah, what Dana said!

Thanks for the catch :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Matt & Jessica

I am not sure what the original poster meant, but I took the asking what an "f" looks like or how to spell something as the CHILD asking. In that case do you think that is pushing?
My dd does this ALL the time (well words that is, now). She seems to have figured out letters and will put them into words and have me tell her what they are. Sometimes this is a fun feat for my husband and I.
I hadn't really thought about it much, but it seems we are in the beginning of reading or maybe the middle? I am not exactly sure, lol. I guess it really "starts" at birth.
Our story with reading so far (she is 4 almost 5) is that she has always loved books. We read everyday for hours. Sometimes she reads alone for hours depending on what she wants to do. She has most of our short books memorized. In my opinion that is the beginning of reading. She points out words she knows all of the time. She learned to write her full name a couple of years ago just because she wanted too. LOL. She likes to write little stories and notes to us a lot. If she doesn't know how to spell something, she asks. Sometimes she wants me to write it down for her to copy, sometimes she wants me to tell her the letters and she can write them alone. I always ask what she wants.
So I don't know where exactly that puts us on learning to read (and I don't really care either I guess) it is just something she really loves so we go for it. No different than the interest in fish, dinosaurs, Polly pockets, Barbie's, and webkinz.
BTW Webkinz was mentioned before, it is an amazing reading "tool". My did can tell you what anything says on there (other than the quizzes).
So I don't really have any experience with older children and reading, but my advice is when they are ready it will happen. Kind of like potty training:)!! LOL.
Back to the original reason I responded, what do you guys think "is" pushing? Answering your children's questions is just natural and the basis of unschooling to my knowledge. I am assuming that you are talking about the parent "quizzing" the child, but I just want to clarify so I can rethink my position if not:)!!!
Thanks!
Jess:)


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Faith Void

my dd (now 11) started writing long before she was reading on her own.
We never did the alphabet in any traditional way. She asked I told
her. She would ask what the symbols were or I might point out
something cool. Like "fancy" writing (script) because she thought it
was neat. She would write stories while I helped her spell things out.
Once, I asked her to look it up (my mothers idea, lol) and she just
looked at me like I was nuts and said I don't even know how to start.
I asked her did she want me to show her but she didn't (a few years
later she asked me how). She invented her own spellings, which are now
so precious to look at, totally unintelligible :-) but she could read
them at the time. She loved to have me read to her. Everything books,
signs, scraps of things. Once we were reading The Neverending Story
and I picked it up where we left off and she said to skip to another
part she had read that already. Well, that was the first I knew! From
then on she read. The first book she read was HP3 or 4. She was
somewhere in the seventh year.
ds5 has no interest in reading, infrequently does he want to be read
to, and only non-fiction and Captain Underpants.
I don't think you can teach anyone to read (or anything for that
matter). You learn things when you are ready.
Faith