sleep schedules
Mirika Sumers
My husband, DS4, and DD3 and I live with other family members. Every
time our kids decide to stay up late these family members feel the need
to tell us about studies that show children do better on a schedule
especially if they go to bed by a certain time. They tell us that
studies have shown children who stay up late have emotional and
developmental problems down the line. We're trying to be respectful
parents but we're not sure what to say to this. Does anyone have any
ideas? I can't find anything on it but I don't get how it matters if
the kids are getting enough sleep which they do since they sleep in the
following mornings.
Thanks,
Mirika
time our kids decide to stay up late these family members feel the need
to tell us about studies that show children do better on a schedule
especially if they go to bed by a certain time. They tell us that
studies have shown children who stay up late have emotional and
developmental problems down the line. We're trying to be respectful
parents but we're not sure what to say to this. Does anyone have any
ideas? I can't find anything on it but I don't get how it matters if
the kids are getting enough sleep which they do since they sleep in the
following mornings.
Thanks,
Mirika
Barbara Perez
IF you have the right relationship with them, I'd simply say: "Yes, I
remember you mentioning that before. You know, there are 'studies' to
support just about every parenting practice under the sun, depends who you
ask. Can we agree to disagree?" I think this would work with *my* family,
especially if you say it with a smile and matter-of-factly implying that
their opinion is valid to THEM but that you have the final decision on your
children (without putting this in so many words as to not affect their
sensitibilities, lol).
remember you mentioning that before. You know, there are 'studies' to
support just about every parenting practice under the sun, depends who you
ask. Can we agree to disagree?" I think this would work with *my* family,
especially if you say it with a smile and matter-of-factly implying that
their opinion is valid to THEM but that you have the final decision on your
children (without putting this in so many words as to not affect their
sensitibilities, lol).
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Mirika Sumers <mirika@...> wrote:
> My husband, DS4, and DD3 and I live with other family members. Every
> time our kids decide to stay up late these family members feel the need
> to tell us about studies that show children do better on a schedule
> especially if they go to bed by a certain time. They tell us that
> studies have shown children who stay up late have emotional and
> developmental problems down the line. We're trying to be respectful
> parents but we're not sure what to say to this. Does anyone have any
> ideas? I can't find anything on it but I don't get how it matters if
> the kids are getting enough sleep which they do since they sleep in the
> following mornings.
>
> Thanks,
> Mirika
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Gray
Ask them if they have studies on children who are unschooled. I'm
sure kids who are dragged out of bed at 6am to get ready for school,
spend all day expending energy just to survive public school, and
then come home to do homework, will suffer if they stay up too late.
However, when children can build their own routines they will get the
sleep they need, when they need it.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
sure kids who are dragged out of bed at 6am to get ready for school,
spend all day expending energy just to survive public school, and
then come home to do homework, will suffer if they stay up too late.
However, when children can build their own routines they will get the
sleep they need, when they need it.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
On Mar 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Mirika Sumers wrote:
> My husband, DS4, and DD3 and I live with other family members. Every
> time our kids decide to stay up late these family members feel the
> need
> to tell us about studies that show children do better on a schedule
> especially if they go to bed by a certain time. They tell us that
> studies have shown children who stay up late have emotional and
> developmental problems down the line. We're trying to be respectful
> parents but we're not sure what to say to this. Does anyone have any
> ideas? I can't find anything on it but I don't get how it matters if
> the kids are getting enough sleep which they do since they sleep in
> the
> following mornings.
>
> Thanks,
> Mirika
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
Gee. My son was born at noon which became his best time for being up and went to bed at 2am
per his natural schedule. When we attempted to put him in school at age five, he became ill every
morning, tossing his stomach content on the 15 mile drive. (We did put him to bed earlier, but he never
adjusted.) Now that we unschool, he's had no problem getting his sleep. At age ten, his rhythm is to get
up around 10am and go to bed around midnight. Mostly because he has adapted to my work schedule otherwise, he'd still be up at noon and to sleep at 2am.
I still believe that a child is born with their own personal clock. My first born was born at 7am and went to sleep that first day at 10pm. She even slept through the night! Eighteen years later, that's still her best rhythm. (Yes, they did nap during the day. I'm talking main sleeping periods.)
Vicki
____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
per his natural schedule. When we attempted to put him in school at age five, he became ill every
morning, tossing his stomach content on the 15 mile drive. (We did put him to bed earlier, but he never
adjusted.) Now that we unschool, he's had no problem getting his sleep. At age ten, his rhythm is to get
up around 10am and go to bed around midnight. Mostly because he has adapted to my work schedule otherwise, he'd still be up at noon and to sleep at 2am.
I still believe that a child is born with their own personal clock. My first born was born at 7am and went to sleep that first day at 10pm. She even slept through the night! Eighteen years later, that's still her best rhythm. (Yes, they did nap during the day. I'm talking main sleeping periods.)
Vicki
____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Queana
So my 13 y.o. Is in Boy Scouts. He is in a small troop with only 5 active
boys. He was supposed to be planning last night¹s meeting. They take turns
planning, although we parents usually decide whose turn it is. Yesterday we
were away from home most of the day, just him and I book shopping (which he
loves) and eating lunch at California Pizza Kitchen (which he also loves)
while his little brother was in a science camp. I reminded him at some
point that he had scouts that night and needed to plan and he said he didn¹t
want to go. I said, basically, tough.
By the time we got home he still had 2+ hours to figure something out. He
looked online, and I tried to offer several suggestions of ideas they could
do that night but he was quite non-receptive to my suggestions so I quit
suggesting. He mentioned a couple times over the next couple hours that he
didn¹t want to go, and I still said, basically, tough, that he was in charge
so he couldn¹t ditch, that it affects the group too much when someone is
missing, blah blah blah.
As it approached time to go, he lay down on the floor and said he didn¹t
want to go. Then I told him he needed to call his leader and let him know
he wasn¹t coming, because I didn¹t want to. He started crying. For about
10 minutes I tried to coax, bribe, and cajole him into either going (I had
ideas of things to do there), or calling to say he wasn¹t going. In the
past I have just said, get in the car, we¹re going; he would have ended up
going and having fun, but I want to allow him more control in his life.
Finally I ended up calling the leader, said he wasn¹t feeling well and
wouldn¹t make it, and that was that. The rest of the evening was fine.
Obviously I screwed up in various ways throughout the day. I should have
listened to him from the get go; it¹s not like he frequently doesn¹t want to
go. He just wasn¹t in the mood I guess. But once it got to the point it
got to, was it stupid for me to call the leader and let him know he wasn¹t
coming? Should I have left that responsibility to him? Should I have just
let him flake and not told anyone?
On a similar note, the younger two kids (13 and 8) are in taekwondo three
nights a week, and have been for about 5 years. It¹s a big commitment and
sometimes one or both of them doesn¹t want to go. I pretty much make them
go anyway, sometimes unhappily. Once they get going, they are fine. That
is often the only exercise they get. Some weeks that¹s about the only time
they get out of the house other than scouts. If they miss a class or two,
or if the class is cancelled due to a holiday or something, it is really
hard for them to get back into it. I can relate to what they are feeling;
sometimes I do not want to go to the gym. Sometimes I go anyway, sometimes
not. Do I appreciate it when someone (my husband, for example) pressures or
cajoles me to go? Yes. But I do still have a choice. They really don¹t.
They have a choice to quit taekwondo, of course. But if they don¹t want to
quit, they have to go unless they¹re sick or something important comes up.
I guess I¹m afraid if I don¹t make them go they¹ll get used to not having to
go and just quit going.
Although I¹ve always considered myself a very respectful parent compared to
just about everyone I know, there are (obviously) areas that I need to work
on. Advice from oldtimers would be great :)
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
boys. He was supposed to be planning last night¹s meeting. They take turns
planning, although we parents usually decide whose turn it is. Yesterday we
were away from home most of the day, just him and I book shopping (which he
loves) and eating lunch at California Pizza Kitchen (which he also loves)
while his little brother was in a science camp. I reminded him at some
point that he had scouts that night and needed to plan and he said he didn¹t
want to go. I said, basically, tough.
By the time we got home he still had 2+ hours to figure something out. He
looked online, and I tried to offer several suggestions of ideas they could
do that night but he was quite non-receptive to my suggestions so I quit
suggesting. He mentioned a couple times over the next couple hours that he
didn¹t want to go, and I still said, basically, tough, that he was in charge
so he couldn¹t ditch, that it affects the group too much when someone is
missing, blah blah blah.
As it approached time to go, he lay down on the floor and said he didn¹t
want to go. Then I told him he needed to call his leader and let him know
he wasn¹t coming, because I didn¹t want to. He started crying. For about
10 minutes I tried to coax, bribe, and cajole him into either going (I had
ideas of things to do there), or calling to say he wasn¹t going. In the
past I have just said, get in the car, we¹re going; he would have ended up
going and having fun, but I want to allow him more control in his life.
Finally I ended up calling the leader, said he wasn¹t feeling well and
wouldn¹t make it, and that was that. The rest of the evening was fine.
Obviously I screwed up in various ways throughout the day. I should have
listened to him from the get go; it¹s not like he frequently doesn¹t want to
go. He just wasn¹t in the mood I guess. But once it got to the point it
got to, was it stupid for me to call the leader and let him know he wasn¹t
coming? Should I have left that responsibility to him? Should I have just
let him flake and not told anyone?
On a similar note, the younger two kids (13 and 8) are in taekwondo three
nights a week, and have been for about 5 years. It¹s a big commitment and
sometimes one or both of them doesn¹t want to go. I pretty much make them
go anyway, sometimes unhappily. Once they get going, they are fine. That
is often the only exercise they get. Some weeks that¹s about the only time
they get out of the house other than scouts. If they miss a class or two,
or if the class is cancelled due to a holiday or something, it is really
hard for them to get back into it. I can relate to what they are feeling;
sometimes I do not want to go to the gym. Sometimes I go anyway, sometimes
not. Do I appreciate it when someone (my husband, for example) pressures or
cajoles me to go? Yes. But I do still have a choice. They really don¹t.
They have a choice to quit taekwondo, of course. But if they don¹t want to
quit, they have to go unless they¹re sick or something important comes up.
I guess I¹m afraid if I don¹t make them go they¹ll get used to not having to
go and just quit going.
Although I¹ve always considered myself a very respectful parent compared to
just about everyone I know, there are (obviously) areas that I need to work
on. Advice from oldtimers would be great :)
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
On the radio tonight (BBC Radio 4) was a discussion about sleep in children. In Europe there are hugely varying cultural practices. In the UK a 7 year old goes to bed, on average, at 7:30; in France 9 pm is more normal. There isn't genetic variation, it is just cultural. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/am_i_normal.shtml is a link to the program. It's the 4th one. The interesting comment that I caught (and I only glimpsingly listened to the show while making dinner) was that there is no hard and fast description of a child insomniac, rather it is based on parental perspective. Anyhow, it isn't when a child goes to bed, it is how much they sleep.
I was a late to bed, late to rise person. I can remember, vividly, lying in bed for hours waiting for sleep to come. It didn't come. 8 or 9 or 10 just weren't hours when I was ready to stop. Nor was 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 hours when I was ready to wake up.
Ask them about jet lag and airline employees who change time zones regularly so don't go to bed by the clock. Ask them about people who work night shifts. Have them produce the studies. I'd like to read them, and rip them to shreds.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
I was a late to bed, late to rise person. I can remember, vividly, lying in bed for hours waiting for sleep to come. It didn't come. 8 or 9 or 10 just weren't hours when I was ready to stop. Nor was 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 hours when I was ready to wake up.
Ask them about jet lag and airline employees who change time zones regularly so don't go to bed by the clock. Ask them about people who work night shifts. Have them produce the studies. I'd like to read them, and rip them to shreds.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
On Mar 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Mirika Sumers wrote:
> My husband, DS4, and DD3 and I live with other family members. Every
> time our kids decide to stay up late these family members feel the
> need
> to tell us about studies that show children do better on a schedule
> especially if they go to bed by a certain time. They tell us that
> studies have shown children who stay up late have emotional and
> developmental problems down the line. We're trying to be respectful
> parents but we're not sure what to say to this. Does anyone have any
> ideas? I can't find anything on it but I don't get how it matters if
> the kids are getting enough sleep which they do since they sleep in
> the
> following mornings.
>
> Thanks,
> Mirika
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freasabird2003
Hi Sarah,
To me, you really do sound like a very respectful parent and I am not
sure that I would have done anything differently....other than perhaps
insisting that he make the phone call himself. But it sounds like you
did that too, and only made the phone call when it was obvious that he
wasn't. I suppose if this happens again, you could hold out and let him
make the call or not; eventually he will learn that he is the
responsible party for his actions. I have a 19 year old son who is
STILL figuring this out. :(
~Wilda in Savannah, Tennessee
(who is an oldtimer at parenting, but less than a decade of unschooling)
To me, you really do sound like a very respectful parent and I am not
sure that I would have done anything differently....other than perhaps
insisting that he make the phone call himself. But it sounds like you
did that too, and only made the phone call when it was obvious that he
wasn't. I suppose if this happens again, you could hold out and let him
make the call or not; eventually he will learn that he is the
responsible party for his actions. I have a 19 year old son who is
STILL figuring this out. :(
~Wilda in Savannah, Tennessee
(who is an oldtimer at parenting, but less than a decade of unschooling)
>compared to
> Although I¹ve always considered myself a very respectful parent
> just about everyone I know, there are (obviously) areas that I needto work
> on. Advice from oldtimers would be great :)
>
> Sarah
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], Queana <queana@...> wrote:
the meeting for him (if that was the problem) rather than lie for him.
That's definitely not a good thing.
to go, and helped from there.
That
If they miss a class or two,
may feel they are being pressured to not quit either. Maybe they fear
your disappointment. But if you didn't have those expectations then
you couldn't be disappointed.
But if they don't want to
predicament. We made him go, even unhappily. After we began
unschooling, and our relationship became trusting, he told me he
wanted to quit. And he did. No big deal. After awhile, his little
energetic body was dying for something to do so he tried hockey,
baseball, and soccer. Now he's really into wrestling and even joined
the local youth theater. It changed him a lot to be in control of his
own activities. I just had to find them and open them up for him.
> Finally I ended up calling the leader, said he wasn¹t feeling well andI'm not sure if this was the right answer, but I would have planned
> wouldn¹t make it, and that was that. The rest of the evening was fine.
the meeting for him (if that was the problem) rather than lie for him.
That's definitely not a good thing.
> Obviously I screwed up in various ways throughout the day. I shouldhave
> listened to him from the get go; it¹s not like he frequently doesn¹twant to
> go. He just wasn¹t in the mood I guess. But once it got to thepoint it
> got to, was it stupid for me to call the leader and let him know hewasn¹t
> coming? Should I have left that responsibility to him? Should Ihave just
> let him flake and not told anyone?I'm wondering if you could have tried to find out why he didn't want
to go, and helped from there.
> On a similar note, the younger two kids (13 and 8) are in taekwondothree
> nights a week, and have been for about 5 years. It¹s a bigcommitment and
> sometimes one or both of them doesn¹t want to go.I pretty much make them
> go anyway, sometimes unhappily. Once they get going, they are fine.The ends, do not justify the means. :-)
That
> is often the only exercise they get. Some weeks that¹s about theonly time
> they get out of the house other than scouts.Take them out of the house more often? Find more fun things to do.
If they miss a class or two,
> or if the class is cancelled due to a holiday or something, it is reallyfeeling;
> hard for them to get back into it. I can relate to what they are
> sometimes I do not want to go to the gym. Sometimes I go anyway,sometimes
> not. Do I appreciate it when someone (my husband, for example)pressures or
> cajoles me to go? Yes. But I do still have a choice. They reallydon¹t.
> They have a choice to quit taekwondo, of course.They do? It doesn't sound that way. If your forcing them to go, they
may feel they are being pressured to not quit either. Maybe they fear
your disappointment. But if you didn't have those expectations then
you couldn't be disappointed.
But if they don't want to
> quit, they have to go unless they're sick or something importantcomes up.
> I guess I¹m afraid if I don¹t make them go they¹ll get used to nothaving to
> go and just quit going.My son took Karate for 2 or 3 years. We put ourselves in the same
predicament. We made him go, even unhappily. After we began
unschooling, and our relationship became trusting, he told me he
wanted to quit. And he did. No big deal. After awhile, his little
energetic body was dying for something to do so he tried hockey,
baseball, and soccer. Now he's really into wrestling and even joined
the local youth theater. It changed him a lot to be in control of his
own activities. I just had to find them and open them up for him.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 26, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Queana wrote:
To stay focused on the problem of the group needing a plan, you could
say "Others will be disappointed if they show up and there's no one
there with a plan of things to do. Chaos will ensue. There will be
blood. It won't be pretty. What can we do?"
Ask it honestly, knowing he has the option of backing out since he
gave plenty of hours of warning. I assume he's planned before without
problems? Perhaps there was a problem the last meeting that he's
feeling embarrassed about.
You could do the plan yourself and take over for him. Ask him what it
was he was thinking of doing. If he knew he didn't have to do it, saw
that you were willing to pitch in for him, I bet it's likely he would
have taken over.
end, even though *you* left the leaders in the lurch with only a few
minutes warning. He had given hours of warning.
teacher? If so, schools would work wonders wouldn't they?
If you found yourself trapped in a humiliating situation and you knew
someone could help you but refused to, would it make you stronger?
Would you feel empowered ever after to handle the situation on your
own? Or might you think "She abandoned me when I needed her."
Often the lessons we think we're teaching aren't the lessons being
learned.
you're preventing them from doing something that they might find even
better.
In the process they're getting a bad feeling about Tae Kwon Do. If
they leave with a good feeling about it, the might take it up again
when they're older. But less likely if they remember participation
laced with coercion.
Talk to them about it. Be honest. Tell them you need to pay for
lessons even if they don't show up. (I am assuming, otherwise I'm not
seeing the objection.) And it's money you could better spend
elsewhere on something they enjoy more. Don't lace this with guilt.
It's information to help them make a decision. Then let them decide.
It might take a week or so, but trust them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I reminded him at someAt this point you turned him into the problem.
> point that he had scouts that night and needed to plan and he said
> he didn�t
> want to go. I said, basically, tough.
To stay focused on the problem of the group needing a plan, you could
say "Others will be disappointed if they show up and there's no one
there with a plan of things to do. Chaos will ensue. There will be
blood. It won't be pretty. What can we do?"
Ask it honestly, knowing he has the option of backing out since he
gave plenty of hours of warning. I assume he's planned before without
problems? Perhaps there was a problem the last meeting that he's
feeling embarrassed about.
You could do the plan yourself and take over for him. Ask him what it
was he was thinking of doing. If he knew he didn't have to do it, saw
that you were willing to pitch in for him, I bet it's likely he would
have taken over.
> He mentioned a couple times over the next couple hours that heAnd yet that's ultimately what happened and I bet the world didn't
> didn�t want to go, and I still said, basically, tough, that he was
> in charge
> so he couldn�t ditch, that it affects the group too much when
> someone is
> missing, blah blah blah.
end, even though *you* left the leaders in the lurch with only a few
minutes warning. He had given hours of warning.
> But once it got to the point itWhat would be gained? Do you think pressure and humiliation is a good
> got to, was it stupid for me to call the leader and let him know he
> wasn�t
> coming? Should I have left that responsibility to him? Should I
> have just
> let him flake and not told anyone?
teacher? If so, schools would work wonders wouldn't they?
If you found yourself trapped in a humiliating situation and you knew
someone could help you but refused to, would it make you stronger?
Would you feel empowered ever after to handle the situation on your
own? Or might you think "She abandoned me when I needed her."
Often the lessons we think we're teaching aren't the lessons being
learned.
> I guess I�m afraid if I don�t make them go they�ll get used to notBy making them do something they aren't wildly enthusiastic about
> having to
> go and just quit going.
you're preventing them from doing something that they might find even
better.
In the process they're getting a bad feeling about Tae Kwon Do. If
they leave with a good feeling about it, the might take it up again
when they're older. But less likely if they remember participation
laced with coercion.
Talk to them about it. Be honest. Tell them you need to pay for
lessons even if they don't show up. (I am assuming, otherwise I'm not
seeing the objection.) And it's money you could better spend
elsewhere on something they enjoy more. Don't lace this with guilt.
It's information to help them make a decision. Then let them decide.
It might take a week or so, but trust them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Queana
On 3/26/08 12:49 PM, "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> --- In [email protected]
> <mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com> , Queana <queana@...> wrote:
>
>> > Finally I ended up calling the leader, said he wasn¹t feeling well and
>> > wouldn¹t make it, and that was that. The rest of the evening was fine.
>
> I'm not sure if this was the right answer, but I would have planned
> the meeting for him (if that was the problem) rather than lie for him.
> That's definitely not a good thing.
>
> Yes, I did offer to do that, and even considered going and doing it for him.
> I did not want to embarrass him by telling people he just didn¹t want to come
> or whatever, and I specifically told him that I *wouldn¹t* lie for him.
> Saying that he did not feel well was not a lie; he didn¹t feel well. Whether
> it was emotional or physical doesn¹t change the unwellness. I¹m not sure if
> he thinks I lied.
>>
>>> > Obviously I screwed up in various ways throughout the day. I should
>> have
>>> > listened to him from the get go; it¹s not like he frequently doesn¹t
>> want to
>>> > go. He just wasn¹t in the mood I guess. But once it got to the
>> point it
>>> > got to, was it stupid for me to call the leader and let him know he
>> wasn¹t
>>> > coming? Should I have left that responsibility to him? Should I
>> have just
>>> > let him flake and not told anyone?
>>
>> I'm wondering if you could have tried to find out why he didn't want
>> to go, and helped from there.
>>
> I wish I could! He clams up and doesn¹t answer questions, just cries. When I
> asked him about it later, he still didn¹t answer. I think he just wasn¹t in
> the mood. He has led meetings in the past without any issue.
>>
>>
>>> > On a similar note, the younger two kids (13 and 8) are in taekwondo
>> three
>>> > nights a week, and have been for about 5 years. It¹s a big
>> commitment and
>>> > sometimes one or both of them doesn¹t want to go.
>> I pretty much make them
>>> > go anyway, sometimes unhappily. Once they get going, they are fine.
>>
>> The ends, do not justify the means. :-)
>>
> I know!
>>
>> That
>>> > is often the only exercise they get. Some weeks that¹s about the
>> only time
>>> > they get out of the house other than scouts.
>>
>> Take them out of the house more often? Find more fun things to do.
>>
> Ya... That probably sounded worse than it needed to. I would definitely say
> that¹s not true of most weeks, just some weeks. The exercise part is pretty
> much usually true.
>>
>> If they miss a class or two,
>>> > or if the class is cancelled due to a holiday or something, it is really
>>> > hard for them to get back into it. I can relate to what they are
>> feeling;
>>> > sometimes I do not want to go to the gym. Sometimes I go anyway,
>> sometimes
>>> > not. Do I appreciate it when someone (my husband, for example)
>> pressures or
>>> > cajoles me to go? Yes. But I do still have a choice. They really
>> don¹t.
>>> > They have a choice to quit taekwondo, of course.
>>
>> They do? It doesn't sound that way. If your forcing them to go, they
>> may feel they are being pressured to not quit either. Maybe they fear
>> your disappointment. But if you didn't have those expectations then
>> you couldn't be disappointed.
>>
> Well... This made me reflect. I do ask them (not in a negative manner)
> whether they want to quit, and I have told them that they can quit. It is a
> month to month class, and doesn¹t cost that much (it¹s through our local parks
> and rec) so I wouldn¹t even care if they quit in the middle. The 8 y.o.
> actually did quit for a year or so a few years back, and then rejoined later.
> However, I believe what I have told them in the past (distant past so i¹m not
> positive lol) is that if they quit they¹d have to find some other physical
> activity to do. It could be that they do feel trapped into tae kwon do
> because they don¹t want to find another activity.
>>
>> But if they don't want to
>>> > quit, they have to go unless they're sick or something important
>> comes up.
>>> > I guess I¹m afraid if I don¹t make them go they¹ll get used to not
>> having to
>>> > go and just quit going.
>>
>> My son took Karate for 2 or 3 years. We put ourselves in the same
>> predicament. We made him go, even unhappily. After we began
>> unschooling, and our relationship became trusting, he told me he
>> wanted to quit. And he did. No big deal. After awhile, his little
>> energetic body was dying for something to do so he tried hockey,
>> baseball, and soccer. Now he's really into wrestling and even joined
>> the local youth theater. It changed him a lot to be in control of his
>> own activities. I just had to find them and open them up for him.
>>
> They definitely have control of their activities in a general sense as far as
> picking them and quitting them, but participating in between the joining and
> the quitting hasn¹t been optional.
>
> Thanks for your input!!
>
> Sarah
Vickisue Gray
>>>Ask them about jet lag and airline employees who change time zones regularly so don't go to bed by the clock. Ask them about people who work night shifts. Have them produce the studies. I'd like to read them, and rip them to shreds.You raise a very good point! I have worked crazy hours most of my life starting with my parents' roller skating rink and it closing at 2am on the weekends and us not getting home till 4am. Then I worked 911, which required staying up all night. I found that as long as a rhythm was established, the hours didn't matter so much. Only when my shift work switched to weirdness, did it effect me negatively. (Shifts being 2 midnights then 2 afternoons with an eight hour break then an 8-4 dayshift.) The body has no set sleep time and THAT really messes you up.
If children are left to sleep, they will get what they require.
Vicki
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Queana
On 3/26/08 2:34 PM, "Joyce Fetteroll" <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
the planning several times, it wasn't with the option of not going at all.
I didn't begin second guessing my initial 'tough' reaction until about 10
minutes before the meeting when he started crying. He has planned and run
meetings before, so I don't think that was the issue. Like I replied to
another post, it can be hard (sometimes impossible) to get information out
of him about things he is emotional about. He'll just clam up and not
speak. I can ask yes or no questions that he'll respond to by nodding or
shaking his head, but sometimes I run out of questions before I figure it
out.
happening. So it ended up being a non-issue. The beforemath, however, was
still an issue.
humiliation. I never yelled at him or insulted him, or told anybody he was
refusing to do the meeting or threatened to punish him or anything that
would cause humiliation. Are you saying that not calling for him would have
humiliated him? Sorry, just confused. If that is what you are saying, yes
I agree; that is why I called and said he was not feeling well (which, when
someone is laying on the floor crying seems to be true).
about it still or not. As swissarmywife (sorry, missed the first name lol)
pointed out, they may not realize that they really can quit if they want to.
Should I actually tell them "if you quit tae kwon do, I won't make you sign
up for another physical activity," since that is something that I have said
in the past?
It really isn't about the money. The classes are fairly inexpensive being
through the parks and rec and we really tend to have money for the things
they want to do and get. For me its more about the physical exercise than
anything else. My 13 y.o. bio father (whom he's never met) apparently has a
weight problem when he's not on drugs, and he (the 13 y.o.) is a bit pudgy
around the middle. I am afraid that he would gain weight if he quit, and I
know overweight teenagers are generally not happy, and generally become
overweight adults. He is generally not physically active, but really jumped
into tae kwon do with gusto, and has been really proud of his progress; he
is the senior belt in the whole class.
*However*, I think the real issue is that it's an easy way to make sure they
are exercising without having to get creative. We like to go to the Y all
together, where they can swim, play basketball or racquetball, and use the
skatepark if they want to; but I don't always get us there when I should.
We like to play tennis at the park together too. I would have to be more
conscious about getting these things in and not rely on the routine I guess.
Thanks for taking the time to answer :)
Sarah
>Yes, I definitely should have done this. Although I did try to help with
> On Mar 26, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Queana wrote:
>
>> I reminded him at some
>> point that he had scouts that night and needed to plan and he said
>> he didn‚t
>> want to go. I said, basically, tough.
>
> At this point you turned him into the problem.
>
> To stay focused on the problem of the group needing a plan, you could
> say "Others will be disappointed if they show up and there's no one
> there with a plan of things to do. Chaos will ensue. There will be
> blood. It won't be pretty. What can we do?"
>
> Ask it honestly, knowing he has the option of backing out since he
> gave plenty of hours of warning. I assume he's planned before without
> problems? Perhaps there was a problem the last meeting that he's
> feeling embarrassed about.
>
> You could do the plan yourself and take over for him. Ask him what it
> was he was thinking of doing. If he knew he didn't have to do it, saw
> that you were willing to pitch in for him, I bet it's likely he would
> have taken over.
>
the planning several times, it wasn't with the option of not going at all.
I didn't begin second guessing my initial 'tough' reaction until about 10
minutes before the meeting when he started crying. He has planned and run
meetings before, so I don't think that was the issue. Like I replied to
another post, it can be hard (sometimes impossible) to get information out
of him about things he is emotional about. He'll just clam up and not
speak. I can ask yes or no questions that he'll respond to by nodding or
shaking his head, but sometimes I run out of questions before I figure it
out.
>> He mentioned a couple times over the next couple hours that heNope, the world didn't end. In fact, the meeting didn't even end up
>> didn‚t want to go, and I still said, basically, tough, that he was
>> in charge
>> so he couldn‚t ditch, that it affects the group too much when
>> someone is
>> missing, blah blah blah.
>
> And yet that's ultimately what happened and I bet the world didn't
> end, even though *you* left the leaders in the lurch with only a few
> minutes warning. He had given hours of warning.
>
happening. So it ended up being a non-issue. The beforemath, however, was
still an issue.
>> But once it got to the point itWhere did the humiliation come from? I don't think there was any
>> got to, was it stupid for me to call the leader and let him know he
>> wasn‚t
>> coming? Should I have left that responsibility to him? Should I
>> have just
>> let him flake and not told anyone?
>
> What would be gained? Do you think pressure and humiliation is a good
> teacher? If so, schools would work wonders wouldn't they?
>
> If you found yourself trapped in a humiliating situation and you knew
> someone could help you but refused to, would it make you stronger?
> Would you feel empowered ever after to handle the situation on your
> own? Or might you think "She abandoned me when I needed her."
>
> Often the lessons we think we're teaching aren't the lessons being
> learned.
>
humiliation. I never yelled at him or insulted him, or told anybody he was
refusing to do the meeting or threatened to punish him or anything that
would cause humiliation. Are you saying that not calling for him would have
humiliated him? Sorry, just confused. If that is what you are saying, yes
I agree; that is why I called and said he was not feeling well (which, when
someone is laying on the floor crying seems to be true).
>> I guess I‚m afraid if I don‚t make them go they‚ll get used to notYes, I guess I need to lay off and *see* if they are wildly enthusiastic
>> having to
>> go and just quit going.
>
> By making them do something they aren't wildly enthusiastic about
> you're preventing them from doing something that they might find even
> better.
>
> In the process they're getting a bad feeling about Tae Kwon Do. If
> they leave with a good feeling about it, the might take it up again
> when they're older. But less likely if they remember participation
> laced with coercion.
>
> Talk to them about it. Be honest. Tell them you need to pay for
> lessons even if they don't show up. (I am assuming, otherwise I'm not
> seeing the objection.) And it's money you could better spend
> elsewhere on something they enjoy more. Don't lace this with guilt.
> It's information to help them make a decision. Then let them decide.
> It might take a week or so, but trust them.
>
> Joyce
>
about it still or not. As swissarmywife (sorry, missed the first name lol)
pointed out, they may not realize that they really can quit if they want to.
Should I actually tell them "if you quit tae kwon do, I won't make you sign
up for another physical activity," since that is something that I have said
in the past?
It really isn't about the money. The classes are fairly inexpensive being
through the parks and rec and we really tend to have money for the things
they want to do and get. For me its more about the physical exercise than
anything else. My 13 y.o. bio father (whom he's never met) apparently has a
weight problem when he's not on drugs, and he (the 13 y.o.) is a bit pudgy
around the middle. I am afraid that he would gain weight if he quit, and I
know overweight teenagers are generally not happy, and generally become
overweight adults. He is generally not physically active, but really jumped
into tae kwon do with gusto, and has been really proud of his progress; he
is the senior belt in the whole class.
*However*, I think the real issue is that it's an easy way to make sure they
are exercising without having to get creative. We like to go to the Y all
together, where they can swim, play basketball or racquetball, and use the
skatepark if they want to; but I don't always get us there when I should.
We like to play tennis at the park together too. I would have to be more
conscious about getting these things in and not rely on the routine I guess.
Thanks for taking the time to answer :)
Sarah
Queana
Thanks, Wilda! I know that I am relatively very respectful. However, I
have a ways to go yet!
Sarah
have a ways to go yet!
Sarah
On 3/26/08 12:03 PM, "freasabird2003" <freasabird2003@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> To me, you really do sound like a very respectful parent and I am not
> sure that I would have done anything differently....other than perhaps
> insisting that he make the phone call himself. But it sounds like you
> did that too, and only made the phone call when it was obvious that he
> wasn't. I suppose if this happens again, you could hold out and let him
> make the call or not; eventually he will learn that he is the
> responsible party for his actions. I have a 19 year old son who is
> STILL figuring this out. :(
>
> ~Wilda in Savannah, Tennessee
> (who is an oldtimer at parenting, but less than a decade of unschooling)
>
>> >
>> > Although I¹ve always considered myself a very respectful parent
> compared to
>> > just about everyone I know, there are (obviously) areas that I need
> to work
>> > on. Advice from oldtimers would be great :)
>> >
>> > Sarah
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
> >> He mentioned a couple times over the next couple hours that heOh my gosh - the poor kid. You have no real idea why he was so adamant
> >> didn�t want to go, and I still said, basically, tough, that he was
> >> in charge
> >> so he couldn�t ditch, that it affects the group too much when
> >> someone is
> >> missing, blah blah blah.
and so emotional about it?
ASSUME he has good reasons.
Holy cow - maybe the scout master is molesting him or some kid is
bullying him or something awful like that. I mean - probably it isn't
one of those things, but WHATEVER it is, it is truly a dangerous thing
to force a kid to go to an activity that they are emotional about not
wanting to go to.
Even if the only reason is that he doesn't feel like it - then that
activity is obviously not feeling valuable to him. Help him. Maybe the
time he's spending on that could be spent on something more valuable
to him. Help him decide if it is worth it to even stay involved at all.
Try to think from his point of view and remember that he has good
reasons!
Be on his team - you aren't his adversary. Help him get what he wants.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 26, 2008, at 6:32 PM, Queana wrote:
what he'd like you to do when he's emotional?
Does he want you to keep asking?
Let him know that you want to help but if your way of helping isn't
what he wants then you'll back off and let him handle it. (Or
whatever he suggests.) Bring it up again after you've been doing
something different for a while to check how it's working and see if
he has any new ideas.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He'll just clam up and notHave you asked him -- during a quiet time when he's not emotional --
> speak. I can ask yes or no questions that he'll respond to by
> nodding or
> shaking his head, but sometimes I run out of questions before I
> figure it
> out.
what he'd like you to do when he's emotional?
Does he want you to keep asking?
Let him know that you want to help but if your way of helping isn't
what he wants then you'll back off and let him handle it. (Or
whatever he suggests.) Bring it up again after you've been doing
something different for a while to check how it's working and see if
he has any new ideas.
> Are you saying that not calling for him would haveNot calling. Or making him call.
> humiliated him?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
j md
Hi Mirika,
Being new to the group I was not sure wether or not to respond to what you have written.We are only just looking into unschooling our children.Its something i wish we had done all their lives but we listened to too many people in our lives over the years.Hopefully its a case of never too late to start:)My own sleep story might be of some comfort.When my now 8 yr old was little she stopped sleeping after being one of the best sleepers around.She was about 2 1/2 then and everyone we knew put their say in.Eventually we took her to the doctor who put her on sleeping tablets and later diagnoised her ADHD.(we now have her off the ritalin but are working on the sleep tablet).My second daughter never had a problem sleeping.Our 3rd was the same as the first.....so what did we do when she decided that she would sleep when she wanted...usually 2 am without a nap in the day?We just let her.....no forceing, if she didnt want to sleep that was just fine...she would
when she was ready....the result....she now at 3 1/2 goes to bed at about 10 pm and will put herself to sleep if tired during the day.I wish we had had the convictions then that we have now.But you learn as you go!I dont know about what the studies say and i dont think i will read them...children will sleep when they are tired and i think its more harmful to make them go to sleep when they are not ready then it is to let them sleep when they are ready....even if that means its a different time each night!
Luna
----- Original Message ----
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March, 2008 3:22:48 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] sleep schedules
IF you have the right relationship with them, I'd simply say: "Yes, I
remember you mentioning that before. You know, there are 'studies' to
support just about every parenting practice under the sun, depends who you
ask. Can we agree to disagree?" I think this would work with *my* family,
especially if you say it with a smile and matter-of-factly implying that
their opinion is valid to THEM but that you have the final decision on your
children (without putting this in so many words as to not affect their
sensitibilities, lol).
Being new to the group I was not sure wether or not to respond to what you have written.We are only just looking into unschooling our children.Its something i wish we had done all their lives but we listened to too many people in our lives over the years.Hopefully its a case of never too late to start:)My own sleep story might be of some comfort.When my now 8 yr old was little she stopped sleeping after being one of the best sleepers around.She was about 2 1/2 then and everyone we knew put their say in.Eventually we took her to the doctor who put her on sleeping tablets and later diagnoised her ADHD.(we now have her off the ritalin but are working on the sleep tablet).My second daughter never had a problem sleeping.Our 3rd was the same as the first.....so what did we do when she decided that she would sleep when she wanted...usually 2 am without a nap in the day?We just let her.....no forceing, if she didnt want to sleep that was just fine...she would
when she was ready....the result....she now at 3 1/2 goes to bed at about 10 pm and will put herself to sleep if tired during the day.I wish we had had the convictions then that we have now.But you learn as you go!I dont know about what the studies say and i dont think i will read them...children will sleep when they are tired and i think its more harmful to make them go to sleep when they are not ready then it is to let them sleep when they are ready....even if that means its a different time each night!
Luna
----- Original Message ----
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March, 2008 3:22:48 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] sleep schedules
IF you have the right relationship with them, I'd simply say: "Yes, I
remember you mentioning that before. You know, there are 'studies' to
support just about every parenting practice under the sun, depends who you
ask. Can we agree to disagree?" I think this would work with *my* family,
especially if you say it with a smile and matter-of-factly implying that
their opinion is valid to THEM but that you have the final decision on your
children (without putting this in so many words as to not affect their
sensitibilities, lol).
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Mirika Sumers <mirika@bellsouth. net> wrote:
> My husband, DS4, and DD3 and I live with other family members. Every
> time our kids decide to stay up late these family members feel the need
> to tell us about studies that show children do better on a schedule
> especially if they go to bed by a certain time. They tell us that
> studies have shown children who stay up late have emotional and
> developmental problems down the line. We're trying to be respectful
> parents but we're not sure what to say to this. Does anyone have any
> ideas? I can't find anything on it but I don't get how it matters if
> the kids are getting enough sleep which they do since they sleep in the
> following mornings.
>
> Thanks,
> Mirika
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], Queana <queana@...> wrote:
have been intimidated by the idea of having to plan something for the
group? I would be so nervous about having to do something like that
that I would not want to go, either.
Alysia
>want to
>I should have
> listened to him from the get go; it¹s not like he frequently doesn¹t
> go. He just wasn¹t in the mood I guess.Do you think it really was that he just wasn't in the mood? Could he
> Sarah
>
have been intimidated by the idea of having to plan something for the
group? I would be so nervous about having to do something like that
that I would not want to go, either.
Alysia
Karen Swanay
This is what I was thinking. I'm involved with a lot of different
groups and let's face it, no matter how much certain people would like
to be able to be a planner, or a leader, they are just terrible at it.
They either lack the ability or the confidence. Perhaps your son is
a follower and not a leader? The kids all planning seems WAY too
mature for their age group. I wouldn't be involved in this scout
troop. As it so happens I am a planner and a leader, so I wouldn't
tolerate having to put up with something an inept person planned
especially if that kind of thing kept rolling around. If I'm paying
to learn something, I want to learn it from someone WHO ALREADY KNOWS
IT! Not be taught by someone who is learning at the same time. Maybe
that was too much pressure for your boy? Maybe he doesn't like the
way the troop is organized.
But I wouldn't have lied for him. (Actually, I'd have long before
this bitched at whichever adult was shirking their responsibility and
making the kids do this stuff.) Saying he felt "unwell" says to
everyone "physically ill" and so you in essence lied. And you trapped
him in that lie now too. My kids (11 and 9) will sometimes do this
kind of thing, actually both things. The 11 yr old will abruptly
decide he's not doing something. And the 9 yr old is a master at not
talking when he's emotionally conflicted. In both cases, I deal with
the kids as they have told me was the way they want it handled. (We
talked about both of these behaviors during a happy and emotionally
normal time.) Your boy is 13. Perhaps you should ask him how he
wants you to handle things like this when they come up.
Also, one more thing...do not forget your son is likely marinating in
his own hormones. Just because he doesn't bleed once a month doesn't
mean that it's any less a confusing and upsetting time for him. I
find these years are harder than the baby years. Just something to
think about.
groups and let's face it, no matter how much certain people would like
to be able to be a planner, or a leader, they are just terrible at it.
They either lack the ability or the confidence. Perhaps your son is
a follower and not a leader? The kids all planning seems WAY too
mature for their age group. I wouldn't be involved in this scout
troop. As it so happens I am a planner and a leader, so I wouldn't
tolerate having to put up with something an inept person planned
especially if that kind of thing kept rolling around. If I'm paying
to learn something, I want to learn it from someone WHO ALREADY KNOWS
IT! Not be taught by someone who is learning at the same time. Maybe
that was too much pressure for your boy? Maybe he doesn't like the
way the troop is organized.
But I wouldn't have lied for him. (Actually, I'd have long before
this bitched at whichever adult was shirking their responsibility and
making the kids do this stuff.) Saying he felt "unwell" says to
everyone "physically ill" and so you in essence lied. And you trapped
him in that lie now too. My kids (11 and 9) will sometimes do this
kind of thing, actually both things. The 11 yr old will abruptly
decide he's not doing something. And the 9 yr old is a master at not
talking when he's emotionally conflicted. In both cases, I deal with
the kids as they have told me was the way they want it handled. (We
talked about both of these behaviors during a happy and emotionally
normal time.) Your boy is 13. Perhaps you should ask him how he
wants you to handle things like this when they come up.
Also, one more thing...do not forget your son is likely marinating in
his own hormones. Just because he doesn't bleed once a month doesn't
mean that it's any less a confusing and upsetting time for him. I
find these years are harder than the baby years. Just something to
think about.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 7:59 AM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
> Do you think it really was that he just wasn't in the mood? Could he
> have been intimidated by the idea of having to plan something for the
> group? I would be so nervous about having to do something like that
> that I would not want to go, either.
>
> Alysia
--
Karen
http://temptabo.blogspot.com/
Melissa Gray
As a leader in boy scouts, I think I might have a different
perspective of the boys planning 'all' of the meetings. I assume
that at thirteen, your son is second class? My son is thirteen and
just passed review to first class, so it depends I guess.
Once they are in boy scouts, as opposed to cub scouts, it is expected
that the boys take on the responsibility of the meetings. Having
said that, it is the role of the leaders to guide and mentor them,
and it should be explained to the boys that they need to ask for help
if they need it. All expectations should be developmentally
appropriate, and younger boy scouts (ages 11 to 13) might need more
help than older scouts (14 to 17), but all ages are in patrols
together, and it's possible that the delineation isn't occurring as
it should between those age groups. And it should have been explained
to parents that they are advocates for the boys.
The meetings aren't supposed to be perfect, but it's the trying
that's important, as a learning exercise. There is no 'inept', they
are just boys who are learning and sharing who they are and what's
important to them. That's part of scouting. In fact, the boys have
requirements of learning subjects and 'teaching' each other to
advance in the ranks. The older boys are supposed to help the younger
ones as well, so I agree that it sounds like the leadership in this
particular patrol isn't taking into account different maturity
levels, and that the brotherhood isn't necessarily working.
Now is ONE boy in charge of the entire meeting? You might talk to the
leader, because in each of our troop patrols, the patrol leader runs
the meeting, the assistant patrol leader makes announcements, and the
boys take turns running the requirements or explaining what they've
learned. I would just say that I was concerned because it seems like
a lot for one boy to handle, and ask about sharing responsibilities.
I think you understand how to handle it differently. If my son isn't
wanting to go, I'd assume he was overwhelmed and ask if he wanted
help to get ready. A few hours is all it takes to flip through the
handbook, figure out what he needs to advance, and print something
from the web to share with the group. And encourage him to talk to
the leader about how he's feeling. Ask if he wants you there as well.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
perspective of the boys planning 'all' of the meetings. I assume
that at thirteen, your son is second class? My son is thirteen and
just passed review to first class, so it depends I guess.
Once they are in boy scouts, as opposed to cub scouts, it is expected
that the boys take on the responsibility of the meetings. Having
said that, it is the role of the leaders to guide and mentor them,
and it should be explained to the boys that they need to ask for help
if they need it. All expectations should be developmentally
appropriate, and younger boy scouts (ages 11 to 13) might need more
help than older scouts (14 to 17), but all ages are in patrols
together, and it's possible that the delineation isn't occurring as
it should between those age groups. And it should have been explained
to parents that they are advocates for the boys.
The meetings aren't supposed to be perfect, but it's the trying
that's important, as a learning exercise. There is no 'inept', they
are just boys who are learning and sharing who they are and what's
important to them. That's part of scouting. In fact, the boys have
requirements of learning subjects and 'teaching' each other to
advance in the ranks. The older boys are supposed to help the younger
ones as well, so I agree that it sounds like the leadership in this
particular patrol isn't taking into account different maturity
levels, and that the brotherhood isn't necessarily working.
Now is ONE boy in charge of the entire meeting? You might talk to the
leader, because in each of our troop patrols, the patrol leader runs
the meeting, the assistant patrol leader makes announcements, and the
boys take turns running the requirements or explaining what they've
learned. I would just say that I was concerned because it seems like
a lot for one boy to handle, and ask about sharing responsibilities.
I think you understand how to handle it differently. If my son isn't
wanting to go, I'd assume he was overwhelmed and ask if he wanted
help to get ready. A few hours is all it takes to flip through the
handbook, figure out what he needs to advance, and print something
from the web to share with the group. And encourage him to talk to
the leader about how he's feeling. Ask if he wants you there as well.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:14 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
> This is what I was thinking. I'm involved with a lot of different
> groups and let's face it, no matter how much certain people would like
> to be able to be a planner, or a leader, they are just terrible at it.
> They either lack the ability or the confidence. Perhaps your son is
> a follower and not a leader? The kids all planning seems WAY too
> mature for their age group. I wouldn't be involved in this scout
> troop. As it so happens I am a planner and a leader, so I wouldn't
> tolerate having to put up with something an inept person planned
> especially if that kind of thing kept rolling around. If I'm paying
> to learn something, I want to learn it from someone WHO ALREADY KNOWS
> IT! Not be taught by someone who is learning at the same time. Maybe
> that was too much pressure for your boy? Maybe he doesn't like the
> way the troop is organized.
>
> .
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Queana
On 3/26/08 11:28 PM, "Pamela Sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
the specific person, I feel like mentioning that I am at every scout
activity and meeting, so there is definitely not something terrible going on
with the leader or other adults. He is the one kid there that all the boys
like (the other 4 fight amongst themselves a bit). I will talk to him more
about it today and ask him what was going on. It may have just been that he
was away from his computer all day and he wanted to be on it.
To continue the story, yesterday once again the 8 y.o was at science camp,
which he loves, and the 13 y.o. and I hung out at Grandpas house, because it
is halfway to the science camp from our house. My 17 y.o., whom I haven't
mentioned yet because he's in school (by choice), stays at grandpas for a
few days during his Spring Break, so he was already there. When it was time
to pick up 8 y.o., he of course wanted to go hang out at grandpas too, since
everyone else was while he was in camp, so we went back to grandpas.
We hung out there for a couple more hours, and then I really needed to get
home because there were some work things I just could not do at grandpas (I
work from home). So we left. 8 y.o. was upset about leaving, but when we
were still actually there he asked if he could stay there and I could come
back and pick him up before taekwondo. I said no, I had work to do, and had
driven too much today already (grandpa lives about 20 minutes away). I told
him he could spend the night at grandpas tomorrow and that seemed to work
for him. So we left.
When we got home he mentioned a few times that he wanted to go to grandpas.
13 y.o. started mentioning that his ankle hurt, and I started thinking again
about taekwondo and whether they really want to be in it or not. I told 8
y.o. He could call his dad and see if he would take him back to grandpas
when he got home from work. It's my husband's dad, and he usually doesn't
need a reason to go over there, particularly at dinner time (dh is the one
that cooks dinner around here). Grandpa said it was ok, dad said he would
take him in about a half hour. He started asking 13 y.o. If he wanted to go
back to grandpas, and said, "you won't have to go to taekwondo".
I asked them at that point (in a light voice, not negatively), "Why do you
guys stay in taekwondo if you never want to go?" 13 y.o. said he doesn't
like going when his back hurts (his back has been hurting, but his teacher
doesn't have him do anything strenuous when his back hurts). 8 y.o. said he
would go probably every other time if he had a choice. So I said, ok, you
guys never *have* to go to taekwondo. It's up to you. They seemed
surprised. Neither went last night of course (8 y.o. Went to grandpas, 13
y.o. chose to stay home with his computer (and me, though I was working)
which is much faster than grandpas).
8 y.o. made an interesting comment then. He said that he doesn't like not
doing the things he should, like schoolwork and taekwondo. He said that was
weird for him, and he didn't like it. So... Obviously it may take awhile
for them to see that it's not like they are skipping out on things they
*should* be doing.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for your responses. We'll see what happens with
taekwondo I guess.
Sarah
>Thanks for this. And even though I know it's about the principle and not
>>>> He mentioned a couple times over the next couple hours that he
>>>> didnt want to go, and I still said, basically, tough, that he was
>>>> in charge
>>>> so he couldnt ditch, that it affects the group too much when
>>>> someone is
>>>> missing, blah blah blah.
>
> Oh my gosh - the poor kid. You have no real idea why he was so adamant
> and so emotional about it?
>
> ASSUME he has good reasons.
>
> Holy cow - maybe the scout master is molesting him or some kid is
> bullying him or something awful like that. I mean - probably it isn't
> one of those things, but WHATEVER it is, it is truly a dangerous thing
> to force a kid to go to an activity that they are emotional about not
> wanting to go to.
>
> Even if the only reason is that he doesn't feel like it - then that
> activity is obviously not feeling valuable to him. Help him. Maybe the
> time he's spending on that could be spent on something more valuable
> to him. Help him decide if it is worth it to even stay involved at all.
>
> Try to think from his point of view and remember that he has good
> reasons!
>
> Be on his team - you aren't his adversary. Help him get what he wants.
>
> -pam
>
the specific person, I feel like mentioning that I am at every scout
activity and meeting, so there is definitely not something terrible going on
with the leader or other adults. He is the one kid there that all the boys
like (the other 4 fight amongst themselves a bit). I will talk to him more
about it today and ask him what was going on. It may have just been that he
was away from his computer all day and he wanted to be on it.
To continue the story, yesterday once again the 8 y.o was at science camp,
which he loves, and the 13 y.o. and I hung out at Grandpas house, because it
is halfway to the science camp from our house. My 17 y.o., whom I haven't
mentioned yet because he's in school (by choice), stays at grandpas for a
few days during his Spring Break, so he was already there. When it was time
to pick up 8 y.o., he of course wanted to go hang out at grandpas too, since
everyone else was while he was in camp, so we went back to grandpas.
We hung out there for a couple more hours, and then I really needed to get
home because there were some work things I just could not do at grandpas (I
work from home). So we left. 8 y.o. was upset about leaving, but when we
were still actually there he asked if he could stay there and I could come
back and pick him up before taekwondo. I said no, I had work to do, and had
driven too much today already (grandpa lives about 20 minutes away). I told
him he could spend the night at grandpas tomorrow and that seemed to work
for him. So we left.
When we got home he mentioned a few times that he wanted to go to grandpas.
13 y.o. started mentioning that his ankle hurt, and I started thinking again
about taekwondo and whether they really want to be in it or not. I told 8
y.o. He could call his dad and see if he would take him back to grandpas
when he got home from work. It's my husband's dad, and he usually doesn't
need a reason to go over there, particularly at dinner time (dh is the one
that cooks dinner around here). Grandpa said it was ok, dad said he would
take him in about a half hour. He started asking 13 y.o. If he wanted to go
back to grandpas, and said, "you won't have to go to taekwondo".
I asked them at that point (in a light voice, not negatively), "Why do you
guys stay in taekwondo if you never want to go?" 13 y.o. said he doesn't
like going when his back hurts (his back has been hurting, but his teacher
doesn't have him do anything strenuous when his back hurts). 8 y.o. said he
would go probably every other time if he had a choice. So I said, ok, you
guys never *have* to go to taekwondo. It's up to you. They seemed
surprised. Neither went last night of course (8 y.o. Went to grandpas, 13
y.o. chose to stay home with his computer (and me, though I was working)
which is much faster than grandpas).
8 y.o. made an interesting comment then. He said that he doesn't like not
doing the things he should, like schoolwork and taekwondo. He said that was
weird for him, and he didn't like it. So... Obviously it may take awhile
for them to see that it's not like they are skipping out on things they
*should* be doing.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for your responses. We'll see what happens with
taekwondo I guess.
Sarah
Kim Musolff
I found that as long as a rhythm was established, the hours didn't matter so
much. Only when my shift work switched to weirdness, did it effect me
negatively. (Shifts being 2 midnights then 2 afternoons with an eight hour
break then an 8-4 dayshift.) The body has no set sleep time and THAT really
messes you up.
I find this to be very true! It seems like when I (or my children) have a
regular sleep pattern we are fine! But when we have to get up early
sometimes and are allowed to sleep in sometimes--that is what messes us up!
When we had my son in kindergarten, it was only 2 days a week. On those
days, we all had to get up early and on all the other days we were allowed
to keep our natural sleep schedules (stay up late/sleep in late). This
really screwed us up!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
much. Only when my shift work switched to weirdness, did it effect me
negatively. (Shifts being 2 midnights then 2 afternoons with an eight hour
break then an 8-4 dayshift.) The body has no set sleep time and THAT really
messes you up.
I find this to be very true! It seems like when I (or my children) have a
regular sleep pattern we are fine! But when we have to get up early
sometimes and are allowed to sleep in sometimes--that is what messes us up!
When we had my son in kindergarten, it was only 2 days a week. On those
days, we all had to get up early and on all the other days we were allowed
to keep our natural sleep schedules (stay up late/sleep in late). This
really screwed us up!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
Short and sweet. Ask for these studies (previously suggested). We all know
that it is "common knowledge" to put kids to bed early. But raising kids
takes uncommon courage to rise above the sheeple and get at the truth of
things. Science by committee is superstition and rumor.
Ask them respectfully if there is something else that is bothering them.
Are the kids loud? Do they begin acting disrespectfully when they are
tired? The whole "kids should go to bed early" could be a cover for
something else. Perhaps they are upset that they were made to go to bed
early as kids and resent that you are letting yours stay up. Who knows?
But there may be more going on beneath the surface than just "familial
concern."
Just my 2 cents' worth.
--Rob Saxon
"Daddy!" to Elissa (almost 5!) and Genevieve (6)
DH to Seana for 11 years
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that it is "common knowledge" to put kids to bed early. But raising kids
takes uncommon courage to rise above the sheeple and get at the truth of
things. Science by committee is superstition and rumor.
Ask them respectfully if there is something else that is bothering them.
Are the kids loud? Do they begin acting disrespectfully when they are
tired? The whole "kids should go to bed early" could be a cover for
something else. Perhaps they are upset that they were made to go to bed
early as kids and resent that you are letting yours stay up. Who knows?
But there may be more going on beneath the surface than just "familial
concern."
Just my 2 cents' worth.
--Rob Saxon
"Daddy!" to Elissa (almost 5!) and Genevieve (6)
DH to Seana for 11 years
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]