brad jones

This same daughter is wonderful at helping, please don't jump to the conclusion that my daughter doesn't understand why she is being punished and she does not wish me ill will when I punish her, often I never follow through with it at all, I do threaten it tho and it is not harsh, it really is more often a discussion between her and I.



----- Original Message ----
From: Kendrah Nilsestuen <carebear-79@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:54:17 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling Unrespected

**She doesn't like the putting them
back up part but will do it when she finds out that she won't get
computer
privileges or some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she
doesn't.**

It is just me and the kids and I realize I'm stuck on the toilet with
no toilet paper! I go to change my son's diaper and realize I have
forgotten the wipes, or a replacement diaper. In these situations I
have to call my 4 y/o to bring me these things. She always is happily
willing. I wonder if this would be so if I punished her for not
picking her things up.
In our house we all help one another. If I see her toys, and they are
in my way. I pick them up, or offer creative ways we can do them
together. I show consideration for her things. Then when I have
accidentally left something out, I see the same consideration shown
to mine.

Kendrah:)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 10:56 AM, brad jones <bhmjones@...> wrote:

> This same daughter is wonderful at helping, please don't jump to the
> conclusion that my daughter doesn't understand why she is being punished and
> she does not wish me ill will when I punish her, often I never follow
> through with it at all, I do threaten it tho and it is not harsh, it really
> is more often a discussion between her and I.
*******************************************************************************************************************************************************

With all due respect, threatening it is just as harsh as doing it
unless she believes you won't do it and if that's the case why bother?
And IMO the real damage is being done by your lack of consistency.
If you say you will do something and then never do, how can she know
what you will and will not do? How can she trust that anything you
say is the truth? At all times you need to keep in mind that children
are egocentric. That's how they are supposed to be. She *will*
internalize anything you say or do. Look back at your scars from
childhood and see the things through the eyes of your parents. Then
look at how it feels or felt and you will see the difference. What you
see as being not harsh or a promise made and then backed out may not
be the same to your daughter.

Additionally, (I'm a dog trainer and I work with OC.) One of the
"tools" we have in our tool box with both people and animals is the
use of punishers or reinforcers (which may be + or -) and I'm not
advocating the use of anything negative. I bring it up to say this.
The subject (child, person, or animal) gets to decide if the punisher
is harsh or mild. My daughter was abused, so yelling at her means
nothing. She simply doesn't register it as anything worth paying
attention to. My youngest son OTOH is incredibly sensitive and
yelling at him crushes him. I can yell the same thing at both of them
"STOP THAT NOW!" And they will each respond differently *because they
are different people with different needs*. I can say "Well yelling
isn't that bad, after all I got spankings and that's worse." But I
don't get to make that call. The subject of the punisher does. What
seems mild to one person may seem blisteringly harsh to another. And
the punisher doesn't get to decide.

Finally, you don't know if she feels ill will towards you. She
wouldn't tell you that. You control the resources and she wants to
love you and be loved by you. You could be damaging her and she's
just really good at hiding it. I know you said you are working to
change it, and I applaud that. We all have improvements we can make.
(And I know I've got a LONG way to go yet.) But your use of language
concerns me. If this above is what you really think, it *sounds* to
me like you are negating all of what your daughter may perceive.
Imagine for a moment your wife sleeping with your best friend and
saying "Oh, my husband doesn't mind at all! He's totally OK with
it." Wouldn't that be YOUR call to make? And if you decided to keep
your mouth shut for the sake of peace and trying to put your marriage
back together, does that mean it doesn't bother you, really?

I urge you to reconsider how you handle these issues, because kids
want and need to be able to count on their parents.

Karen *noobie to RU but veteran at behavioral science*



http://temptabo.blogspot.com/

brad jones

Oh gawd why did I even post LOL, this is quickly escalating to Total Misinterpretation.... <backing off back into the lurker corner hoping to learn to keep my mouth shut>





----- Original Message ----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 11:16:58 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling Unrespected

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 10:56 AM, brad jones <bhmjones@yahoo. com> wrote:

> This same daughter is wonderful at helping, please don't jump to the
> conclusion that my daughter doesn't understand why she is being punished and
> she does not wish me ill will when I punish her, often I never follow
> through with it at all, I do threaten it tho and it is not harsh, it really
> is more often a discussion between her and I.
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ****

With all due respect, threatening it is just as harsh as doing it
unless she believes you won't do it and if that's the case why bother?
And IMO the real damage is being done by your lack of consistency.
If you say you will do something and then never do, how can she know
what you will and will not do? How can she trust that anything you
say is the truth? At all times you need to keep in mind that children
are egocentric. That's how they are supposed to be. She *will*
internalize anything you say or do. Look back at your scars from
childhood and see the things through the eyes of your parents. Then
look at how it feels or felt and you will see the difference. What you
see as being not harsh or a promise made and then backed out may not
be the same to your daughter.

Additionally, (I'm a dog trainer and I work with OC.) One of the
"tools" we have in our tool box with both people and animals is the
use of punishers or reinforcers (which may be + or -) and I'm not
advocating the use of anything negative. I bring it up to say this.
The subject (child, person, or animal) gets to decide if the punisher
is harsh or mild. My daughter was abused, so yelling at her means
nothing. She simply doesn't register it as anything worth paying
attention to. My youngest son OTOH is incredibly sensitive and
yelling at him crushes him. I can yell the same thing at both of them
"STOP THAT NOW!" And they will each respond differently *because they
are different people with different needs*. I can say "Well yelling
isn't that bad, after all I got spankings and that's worse." But I
don't get to make that call. The subject of the punisher does. What
seems mild to one person may seem blisteringly harsh to another. And
the punisher doesn't get to decide.

Finally, you don't know if she feels ill will towards you. She
wouldn't tell you that. You control the resources and she wants to
love you and be loved by you. You could be damaging her and she's
just really good at hiding it. I know you said you are working to
change it, and I applaud that. We all have improvements we can make.
(And I know I've got a LONG way to go yet.) But your use of language
concerns me. If this above is what you really think, it *sounds* to
me like you are negating all of what your daughter may perceive.
Imagine for a moment your wife sleeping with your best friend and
saying "Oh, my husband doesn't mind at all! He's totally OK with
it." Wouldn't that be YOUR call to make? And if you decided to keep
your mouth shut for the sake of peace and trying to put your marriage
back together, does that mean it doesn't bother you, really?

I urge you to reconsider how you handle these issues, because kids
want and need to be able to count on their parents.

Karen *noobie to RU but veteran at behavioral science*

http://temptabo. blogspot. com/




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 22, 2008, at 1:36 PM, brad jones wrote:

> Oh gawd why did I even post LOL, this is quickly escalating to
> Total Misinterpretation

The discussions here aren't about you or about your daughter. They're
about practicing the philosophy of respect and trust. They're about
building relationships.

If someone posts an idea that leads away from those, it's going to be
held up and examined.

This bit gets pulled out every once in a while to explain how the
list works:
> The list is about ideas, not about people.
> Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
> tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
> batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
> person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
> cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
> and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
>

> but I definitely do not agree that I should be the one to pick up
> her toys when she is the one who got them out and knew that I
> desire her to pick them up if she leaves them out.

And most conventional parents would agree. Most conventional parents
end up with teens who help begrudgingly.

But when we fill them up with our willingness to be there for them,
we become people they want to help.

There are more relationship building ways of moving towards that idea
than saying in effect "You made the mess. Your responsibility to
clean it up."

I used to say similar things. One day I spilled something and my
daughter said "You spilled it. You clean it up." That really felt
yucky. What I would like to hear from anyone is "Oh, let me help with
that." So rather than focusing on who caused it, I focused on getting
it cleaned up. Who did something is irrelevant.

You can try reading

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

down on the right are several pages about chores. They might help you
to see what we're talking about. But you might not be ready for the
info yet so it may not make sense.

Joyce

Adrean Clark

> I used to say similar things. One day I spilled something and my
> daughter said "You spilled it. You clean it up." That really felt
> yucky. What I would like to hear from anyone is "Oh, let me help with
> that." So rather than focusing on who caused it, I focused on getting
> it cleaned up. Who did something is irrelevant.

Ouch :) Guilty here - glad you brought that pointer up.

We just stayed the night at my parents. Talk about pulling up
childhood pain. It seems like there was a lot of resentment about
things. I usually was scolded about my room and told that I was lazy,
not trying hard enough, disrespectful, etc. I tried to tell Mom that
I get overwhelmed easily and she said, you just do it this way.
You'll do it when you want to. I still hurt from that. 28 years later
I finally have practiced enough to go step-by-step and not be so
stressed out about messes.

But I still need to be careful not to put resentment on my kids. My
latest incident was blowing my top after finding lots of popcorn on
the floor for the third time or so in a day. That was bad, but I
learned to walk with the kids through what they need. It takes
practice! :D

I still feel like my parents put "things" ahead of me. They can't
help because of something that "has" to be done, and it's easier to
see the "benchmarks" of clean laundry than a psychologically healthy
child. Is it a generation thing?

Adrean

Ren Allen

~~often I never follow through with it at all,~~

Then why ever threaten it? It's a hollow threat. That will help her
learn you are unreliable and full of crap! If your threat works, and
she does the desired activity, she's learning that you aren't on her
side and when you want something done she better just do what you
want. Much better to be partners in figuring out solutions rather than
the big person manipulating the smaller person. Work together!

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~
Oh gawd why did I even post LOL, this is quickly escalating to Total
Misinterpretation~~

What are we misinterpreting?
Your own words stated that if your dd doesn't pick up the toys in the
hallway (when they get pretty messy) you threaten to take away her
computer time in order to get her to do what you want. Anything
missing there?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Karen Swanay

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...> wrote:

> I still feel like my parents put "things" ahead of me. They can't
> help because of something that "has" to be done, and it's easier to
> see the "benchmarks" of clean laundry than a psychologically healthy
> child. Is it a generation thing?
>
> Adrean
>

It may be, especially depending upon your age. I am almost 37 and my
mother is 62. Her parents were children of the Depression. I think
it's useful to remember what it was like for them as children (my
grandparents' generation.) You in fact *DID* have to get things done
or someone may have died from hunger or exposure or whatever.
Maslowe's Hierarchy of Need (which was just presented) absolutely
applied to that generation. Where we can say "Oh adults don't
actually *have* to do things" and be right I think that was not true
of my Great-grandparents. And so it goes. Each generation being a
bit more gentle then the last (we hope) and eventually perhaps we will
all be getting it right. Baby boomers are very "thing" focused.
That's the generation that spawned "Keeping up with the neighbors"
phrase. But they were raised by people who were still very sensitive
to waste and what looked like loafing about. I try to cut my mother
slack when I am upset and remember that in her case, she really did do
the best she could with the tools she had.

I'm sorry your visit was painful Adrean.
Karen



--
Karen

http://temptabo.blogspot.com/

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> Finally, you don't know if she feels ill will towards you. She
> wouldn't tell you that. You control the resources and she wants to
> love you and be loved by you

I was hardly ever punished as a kid - the WORST thing that ever
happened was that I would fight with my sisters and we'd be sent to
our room to cool off.

But, even so, I still remember the thoughts going through my head.

I'm sure my parents hoped I was thinking, "Well, now I've learned
that fighting with my sisters isn't nice and, yeah, I hereby resolve
not to do it anymore. And, thank goodness for my wonderful parents who
were there to show me the error of my ways!"

Not even close!

Most parents punish their kids and believe the kids will learn from
that or, at least, be deterred by the negative reinforcement. But what
kids are learning is not necessarily what the parents want them to
learn. Humans are not like other animals - we don't like being
"trained" and we respond by becoming apathetic, resistant, or
compliant. None of those are good things because none let us be
authentic.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

Is it possible to be gentle even in dire straits? Or is it that we
are able to do this because of our affluence?

Adrean

On 3/22/08, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...> wrote:
>
> > I still feel like my parents put "things" ahead of me. They can't
> > help because of something that "has" to be done, and it's easier to
> > see the "benchmarks" of clean laundry than a psychologically healthy
> > child. Is it a generation thing?
> >
> > Adrean
> >
>
> It may be, especially depending upon your age. I am almost 37 and my
> mother is 62. Her parents were children of the Depression. I think
> it's useful to remember what it was like for them as children (my
> grandparents' generation.) You in fact *DID* have to get things done
> or someone may have died from hunger or exposure or whatever.
> Maslowe's Hierarchy of Need (which was just presented) absolutely
> applied to that generation. Where we can say "Oh adults don't
> actually *have* to do things" and be right I think that was not true
> of my Great-grandparents. And so it goes. Each generation being a
> bit more gentle then the last (we hope) and eventually perhaps we will
> all be getting it right. Baby boomers are very "thing" focused.
> That's the generation that spawned "Keeping up with the neighbors"
> phrase. But they were raised by people who were still very sensitive
> to waste and what looked like loafing about. I try to cut my mother
> slack when I am upset and remember that in her case, she really did do
> the best she could with the tools she had.
>
> I'm sorry your visit was painful Adrean.
> Karen
>
>
>
> --
> Karen
>
> http://temptabo.blogspot.com/
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Heather

>
> <Humans are not like other animals - we don't like being
> "trained" and we respond by becoming apathetic, resistant, or
> compliant. None of those are good things because none let us be
> authentic.>
>





Oh! This reminds me of something I just read...
Maybe monkeys don't like to be trained either.
This is about Harry Harlow, who went against the grain to point out the
problems in "behaviorism".

"Harlow and his students infuriated behaviorists by demonstrating with ever
more precision that monkeys are curious, intelligent creatures who like to
figure things out. ...
For example, giving monkeys raisins as a reward for each correct step in
solving a puzzle (such as opening a mechanical latch with several moving
parts) actually interferes with the solving, because it distracts the
monkeys. They enjoy the task for its own sake."

from The Happiness Hypothesis: finding modern truth in ancient wisdom by
Jonathan Haidt, p 110

I wondered if Alfie Kohn mentioned this in his book "Punished by Rewards".
If he did, I didn't remember it...

heather
in tucson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 22, 2008, at 11:04 PM, Heather wrote:

> For example, giving monkeys raisins as a reward for each correct
> step in
> solving a puzzle (such as opening a mechanical latch with several
> moving
> parts) actually interferes with the solving, because it distracts the
> monkeys. They enjoy the task for its own sake."

I wonder how they know that the interference is due to distraction.
From my economist's point of view - it makes sense. If they reward
them with a raisin for all the steps involved in solving a puzzle,
then by the time they get close to actually solving it, they've
already had a number of raisins and additional raisins are worth less
to them, so they don't work as hard to get them. They're working for
raisins, not for the value of solving the puzzle, and the raisins have
diminishing marginal utility.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> Most parents punish their kids and believe the kids will learn from
> that or, at least, be deterred by the negative reinforcement. But what
> kids are learning is not necessarily what the parents want them to
> learn. Humans are not like other animals - we don't like being
> "trained" and we respond by becoming apathetic, resistant, or
> compliant. None of those are good things because none let us be
> authentic.
>
> -pam
****************************************************************************************************************************
I wanted to mention two things about this. The first is I don't
believe animals like to be trained either. Unfortunately, if they
poop in the middle of the living room floor, most are exposed to
beatings or dumped at the animal shelter so they have little choice.
We humans, force the animals to conform to our way of living. Just
because a dog follows you home doesn't mean he wants you to tie him on
a 3' chain in the backyard. So whether or not animals *enjoy* being
trained is up for major debate. I know my clients' pets enjoy seeing
me because when I come they are rewarded for being right. I speak to
them in happy voices, ignore the failures and reward the correct steps
and always end on a positive note. And they like that, but IMO what
they like is that I am *genuinely* happy to see them as they are.
With sloppy sits, with the occasional bite, and their incessant
barking. Which is different than the regime under which they live.

And punishers don't work with animals. Not in the way we think they
do. Punishment *NEVER* results in a predictable change in behavior.
Never. Animals can learn not to get on the sofa by getting beaten
with the broom. But they either associate the owner with intense
fear, or the couch. Neither one of those ties the behavior of getting
ON the couch to the punishment. I'm guessing it's the same in
children but with kids I have only my own "field study" to draw on.
Whereas I can call myself an *expert* in behaviorism...for animals in
general but dogs and cats specifically.
--
Karen

http://temptabo.blogspot.com/

Karen Swanay

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...>
wrote:
> Is it possible to be gentle even in dire straits? Or is it that we
> are able to do this because of our affluence?
>
> Adrean
*******************************************************************************************************
Well, I'm sure anything is possible. Whether it's probable or not is
another discussion entirely. I think if you aren't familiar with Maslow's
work, you should look at it. In fact I'm going to copy it here because I
think it's very important to most of the RU concept.

Maslow has set up a hierarchy of five levels of basic needs. Beyond these
needs, higher levels of needs exist. These include needs for understanding,
esthetic appreciation and purely spiritual needs. In the levels of the five
basic needs, the person does not feel the second need until the demands of
the first have been satisfied, nor the third until the second has been
satisfied, and so on. Maslow's basic needs are as follows:

*Physiological Needs*
These are biological needs. They consist of needs for oxygen, food, water,
and a relatively constant body temperature. They are the strongest needs
because if a person were deprived of all needs, the physiological ones would
come first in the person's search for satisfaction.

*Safety Needs*
When all physiological needs are satisfied and are no longer controlling
thoughts and behaviors, the needs for security can become active. Adults
have little awareness of their security needs except in times of emergency
or periods of disorganization in the social structure (such as widespread
rioting). Children often display the signs of insecurity and the need to be
safe.

*Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness*
When the needs for safety and for physiological well-being are satisfied,
the next class of needs for love, affection and belongingness can emerge.
Maslow states that people seek to overcome feelings of loneliness and
alienation. This involves both giving and receiving love, affection and the
sense of belonging.

*Needs for Esteem*
When the first three classes of needs are satisfied, the needs for esteem
can become dominant. These involve needs for both self-esteem and for the
esteem a person gets from others. Humans have a need for a stable, firmly
based, high level of self-respect, and respect from others. When these needs
are satisfied, the person feels self-confident and valuable as a person in
the world. When these needs are frustrated, the person feels inferior, weak,
helpless and worthless.

*Needs for Self-Actualization*
When all of the foregoing needs are satisfied, then and only then are the
needs for self-actualization activated. Maslow describes self-actualization
as a person's need to be and do that which the person was "born to do." "A
musician must make music, an artist must paint, and a poet must write."
These needs make themselves felt in signs of restlessness. The person feels
on edge, tense, lacking something, in short, restless. If a person is
hungry, unsafe, not loved or accepted, or lacking self-esteem, it is very
easy to know what the person is restless about. It is not always clear what
a person wants when there is a need for self-actualization.

The hierarchic theory is often represented as a pyramid, with the larger,
lower levels representing the lower needs, and the upper point representing
the need for self-actualization. Maslow believes that the only reason that
people would not move well in direction of self-actualization is because of
hindrances placed in their way by society. He states that education is one
of these hindrances. He recommends ways education can switch from its usual
person-stunting tactics to person-growing approaches. Maslow states that
educators should respond to the potential an individual has for growing into
a self-actualizing person of his/her own kind. Ten points that educators
should address are listed:
1.)We should teach people to be authentic, to be aware of their inner
selves and to hear their inner-feeling voices.
2.)We should teach people to transcend their cultural conditioning and
become world citizens.
3.)We should help people discover their vocation in life, their calling,
fate or destiny. This is especially focused on finding the right career and
the right mate.
4.)We should teach people that life is precious, that there is joy to be
experienced in life, and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous in
all kinds of situations, it makes life worth living.
5.)We must accept the person as he or she is and help the person learn their
inner nature. From real knowledge of aptitudes and limitations we can know
what to build upon, what potentials are really there.
6.)We must see that the person's basic needs are satisfied. This includes
safety, belongingness, and esteem needs.
7.)We should refreshen consciousness, teaching the person to appreciate
beauty and the other good things in nature and in living.
8.)We should teach people that controls are good, and complete abandon is
bad. It takes control to improve the quality of life in all areas.
9.)We should teach people to transcend the trifling problems and grapple
with the serious problems in life. These include the problems of injustice,
of pain, suffering, and death.
10.)We must teach people to be good choosers. They must be given practice in
making good choices.

Whether or not education can or would do these things is again another
subject all together. We all know that education's end is to make all pegs
the exact same shape by using extreme pressure. But Maslow's work is sound
IMO.
--
Karen
http://temptabo.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

Harry Harlow ended up doing such scary work it is hard for me to read his name without shivering. He didn't just go against the grain, some of the things he did...man, oof, it just hurts to think about the rhesus macaques. Oh, and while there might be something of value in the work he did, in the data he collected, it was so horrifically done, I don't know, it seems like, too awful..

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Heather <heather@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2008 6:04:48 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling Unrespected

>
> <Humans are not like other animals - we don't like being
> "trained" and we respond by becoming apathetic, resistant, or
> compliant. None of those are good things because none let us be
> authentic.>
>





Oh! This reminds me of something I just read...
Maybe monkeys don't like to be trained either.
This is about Harry Harlow, who went against the grain to point out the
problems in "behaviorism".

"Harlow and his students infuriated behaviorists by demonstrating with ever
more precision that monkeys are curious, intelligent creatures who like to
figure things out. ...
For example, giving monkeys raisins as a reward for each correct step in
solving a puzzle (such as opening a mechanical latch with several moving
parts) actually interferes with the solving, because it distracts the
monkeys. They enjoy the task for its own sake."

from The Happiness Hypothesis: finding modern truth in ancient wisdom by
Jonathan Haidt, p 110

I wondered if Alfie Kohn mentioned this in his book "Punished by Rewards".
If he did, I didn't remember it...

heather
in tucson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey

okay...i guess i'm 'out of the loop' here;) who is: Harry Harlow ..i
looked at all the previous messages and couldn't find him;)
stacey:)
>
> Harry Harlow ended up doing such scary work it is hard for me to
read his name without shivering. He didn't just go against the grain,
some of the things he did...man, oof, it just hurts to think about
the rhesus macaques. Oh, and while there might be something of value
in the work he did, in the data he collected, it was so horrifically
done, I don't know, it seems like, too awful..
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Heather <heather@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2008 6:04:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling Unrespected
>
> >
> > <Humans are not like other animals - we don't like being
> > "trained" and we respond by becoming apathetic, resistant, or
> > compliant. None of those are good things because none let us be
> > authentic.>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh! This reminds me of something I just read...
> Maybe monkeys don't like to be trained either.
> This is about Harry Harlow, who went against the grain to point out
the
> problems in "behaviorism".
>
> "Harlow and his students infuriated behaviorists by demonstrating
with ever
> more precision that monkeys are curious, intelligent creatures who
like to
> figure things out. ...
> For example, giving monkeys raisins as a reward for each correct
step in
> solving a puzzle (such as opening a mechanical latch with several
moving
> parts) actually interferes with the solving, because it distracts
the
> monkeys. They enjoy the task for its own sake."
>
> from The Happiness Hypothesis: finding modern truth in ancient
wisdom by
> Jonathan Haidt, p 110
>
> I wondered if Alfie Kohn mentioned this in his book "Punished by
Rewards".
> If he did, I didn't remember it...
>
> heather
> in tucson
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Krisula

-------------------------------------------------------------

>>On Mar 22, 2008, at 11:04 PM, Heather wrote:

>> For example, giving monkeys raisins as a reward for each correct
>> step in
>> solving a puzzle (such as opening a mechanical latch with several
>> moving
>> parts) actually interferes with the solving, because it distracts the
>> monkeys. They enjoy the task for its own sake."



>Pam Soroosh responded:
>I wonder how they know that the interference is due to distraction.
>From my economist's point of view - it makes sense. If they reward
>them with a raisin for all the steps involved in solving a puzzle,
>then by the time they get close to actually solving it, they've
>already had a number of raisins and additional raisins are worth less
>to them, so they don't work as hard to get them. They're working for
>raisins, not for the value of solving the puzzle, and the raisins have
>diminishing marginal utility.

------------------------------------------

I thought you guys might like to see these Bonobo's and how some of them
learned to say "words" write symbols they had learned and even play pacman
all in an open ended rich, environment. Very different from behaviorist
training and very interesting.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/76



Krisula







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

Krisula,
Thanks for posting that! I like TED talks in general and this one in
particular was very interesting!

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Krisula <krisula@...> wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >>On Mar 22, 2008, at 11:04 PM, Heather wrote:
>
> >> For example, giving monkeys raisins as a reward for each correct
> >> step in
> >> solving a puzzle (such as opening a mechanical latch with several
> >> moving
> >> parts) actually interferes with the solving, because it distracts the
> >> monkeys. They enjoy the task for its own sake."
>
> >Pam Soroosh responded:
> >I wonder how they know that the interference is due to distraction.
> >From my economist's point of view - it makes sense. If they reward
> >them with a raisin for all the steps involved in solving a puzzle,
> >then by the time they get close to actually solving it, they've
> >already had a number of raisins and additional raisins are worth less
> >to them, so they don't work as hard to get them. They're working for
> >raisins, not for the value of solving the puzzle, and the raisins have
> >diminishing marginal utility.
>
> ------------------------------------------
>
> I thought you guys might like to see these Bonobo's and how some of them
> learned to say "words" write symbols they had learned and even play pacman
> all in an open ended rich, environment. Very different from behaviorist
> training and very interesting.
> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/76
>
> Krisula
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

barefootmamax4

>
> On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 10:56 AM, brad jones <bhmjones@...> wrote:
>
> > This same daughter is wonderful at helping, please don't jump to the
> > conclusion that my daughter doesn't understand why she is being
punished and
> > she does not wish me ill will when I punish her, often I never
follow
> > through with it at all, I do threaten it tho and it is not harsh,
it really
> > is more often a discussion between her and I.

A threat that if you don't do -----, then ---- will happen, is really a
promise. When you don't follow through you have broken your promise.
If you always break your promises will she trust you? Will she break
her promises to you when she is older? Little promises like to do the
dishes might not be so bad but what about the promise to be home before
11 so you don't worry when she is a teen? Or the promise to call you if
she is in trouble? Will she trust you with her secrets? To me those
things are way more important than proiving that I can make my child
obey. Not to mention the feelings of shame you invoke by "you know what
you did" type of thinking as in "you deserve to be punished".
-Kelly

Stacey

i'll have to agree with her here!! i myself am a 'screamer'...and i
will scream 'stupid' things...w/o thinking!! when my kids were
younger, i'd say, 'if you don't ......then you're going to bed (nap)
when we get home!' in the back of my mind, 'while' i'm saying
this, 'she can't go to bed. her nap time isn't till 3 hours later,
that will skrew up your entire day....' and then when i get into the
car and run the rest of the errands...of course she is a litle angel,
no problems, we laugh the whole way home!:)-so how can i tell her to
go to bed when we get home??:(

i got the lecture from my mom. 'think' before you open that mouth of
yours!;) (she said) and then make sure you follow through!! it works
wonders, takes a little while, but they get used to it and pretty
soon they'll just 'know'.
stacey:)
>
>
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 10:56 AM, brad jones <bhmjones@> wrote:
> >
> > > This same daughter is wonderful at helping, please don't jump
to the
> > > conclusion that my daughter doesn't understand why she is being
> punished and
> > > she does not wish me ill will when I punish her, often I never
> follow
> > > through with it at all, I do threaten it tho and it is not
harsh,
> it really
> > > is more often a discussion between her and I.
>
> A threat that if you don't do -----, then ---- will happen, is
really a
> promise. When you don't follow through you have broken your promise.
> If you always break your promises will she trust you? Will she
break
> her promises to you when she is older? Little promises like to do
the
> dishes might not be so bad but what about the promise to be home
before
> 11 so you don't worry when she is a teen? Or the promise to call
you if
> she is in trouble? Will she trust you with her secrets? To me those
> things are way more important than proiving that I can make my
child
> obey. Not to mention the feelings of shame you invoke by "you know
what
> you did" type of thinking as in "you deserve to be punished".
> -Kelly
>

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

i got the lecture from my mom. 'think' before you open that mouth of
yours!;) (she said) and then make sure you follow through!! it works
wonders, takes a little while, but they get used to it and pretty
soon they'll just 'know'.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Can you explain this a little bit more.
Does it mean that if you say something like the OP said then you you follow through with it no matter what?
Do you get you kids to do or not do things or else?
It works wonder? What works?Consequences?





Alex Polikowsky

www.polykow.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

brad jones

Thanks Joyce, it does make sense....



----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:09:05 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling Unrespected


On Mar 22, 2008, at 1:36 PM, brad jones wrote:

> Oh gawd why did I even post LOL, this is quickly escalating to
> Total Misinterpretation

The discussions here aren't about you or about your daughter. They're
about practicing the philosophy of respect and trust. They're about
building relationships.

If someone posts an idea that leads away from those, it's going to be
held up and examined.

This bit gets pulled out every once in a while to explain how the
list works:
> The list is about ideas, not about people.
> Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
> tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
> batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
> person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
> cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
> and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
>

> but I definitely do not agree that I should be the one to pick up
> her toys when she is the one who got them out and knew that I
> desire her to pick them up if she leaves them out.

And most conventional parents would agree. Most conventional parents
end up with teens who help begrudgingly.

But when we fill them up with our willingness to be there for them,
we become people they want to help.

There are more relationship building ways of moving towards that idea
than saying in effect "You made the mess. Your responsibility to
clean it up."

I used to say similar things. One day I spilled something and my
daughter said "You spilled it. You clean it up." That really felt
yucky. What I would like to hear from anyone is "Oh, let me help with
that." So rather than focusing on who caused it, I focused on getting
it cleaned up. Who did something is irrelevant.

You can try reading

http://joyfullyrejo ycing.com

down on the right are several pages about chores. They might help you
to see what we're talking about. But you might not be ready for the
info yet so it may not make sense.

Joyce




____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

brad jones

yes I agree with what you say here, my eyes are getting opened more and more here, keep it coming.....



----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:22:48 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Feeling Unrespected

~~often I never follow through with it at all,~~

Then why ever threaten it? It's a hollow threat. That will help her
learn you are unreliable and full of crap! If your threat works, and
she does the desired activity, she's learning that you aren't on her
side and when you want something done she better just do what you
want. Much better to be partners in figuring out solutions rather than
the big person manipulating the smaller person. Work together!

Ren
learninginfreedom. com





____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

brad jones

I sincerely believe many of you are misinterpreting my daughter, some of you seem to see it as me bullying her, but I sincerely do not think she fears me like that, since 99% of the time she and I negotiate instead of me bullying her, so she isn't as scared and frightened and bullied as you think she is...... I didn't mean that you guys were misinterpreting my words..... I admit I could be off base with her, that is why I want to stay here and keep reading what you guys have to say....



----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:25:11 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Feeling Unrespected

~~
Oh gawd why did I even post LOL, this is quickly escalating to Total
Misinterpretation~ ~

What are we misinterpreting?
Your own words stated that if your dd doesn't pick up the toys in the
hallway (when they get pretty messy) you threaten to take away her
computer time in order to get her to do what you want. Anything
missing there?

Ren
learninginfreedom. com





____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 24, 2008, at 2:59 AM, brad jones wrote:

> I sincerely believe many of you are misinterpreting my daughter,
> some of you seem to see it as me bullying her

We're not discussing you, and not your daughter. We're discussing the
ideas you put onto the list.

If someone pulls the ideas from your emails and tries them at home
they're going to have an adversarial relationship with their child.

There may be something you're doing with your daughter that isn't
coming through. Maybe your and your daughter have a deeper
understanding of each other. Maybe your daughter's personality is
such that she has a more adult view of the world (even if she doesn't
have the ability to follow through). Maybe she has a need to appear
to agree with you to make you happy. Maybe there are relationship
effects you aren't seeing in your daughter because you're focused on
getting her to see she needs to clean up her messes.

Whatever it is, the idea you sent can't be taken by someone on the
list to use in their family and build a relationship with. The ideas
need to be useable and understandable by anyone who wants them and
not dependent on compliant personalities or whatever to work.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 23, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Stacey wrote:

> of course she is a litle angel,
> no problems

When kids are called "little angels" it most often means behaving in
a way that makes mom happy. Obedient. Quiet. If that's the goal, it's
much better to get a dog of a breed that's not an independent
thinker. Retrievers are good I think, but Kelly could come up with a
whole good list :-)

The goal of unschooling is build relationships, give them a safe
environment to grow and explore in. It's to nurture who they are, not
to mold them into something we can show off to the neighbors.

> i got the lecture from my mom. 'think' before you open that mouth of
> yours!;) (she said)

Absolutely. When you feel that yelling feeling coming on think and
ask yourself "Why not? Who's going to die?"

Even better is to catch yourself way sooner. Even better is to
anticipate problems and take care of them before they get to the
yelling stage. Make sure she's well fed. Avoid situations she can't
handle. (If she's acting like she "shouldn't" and you've given her a
gentle reminder, it's a good clue she's too young.)

That won't eliminate all problems but it will cut way back and give
you more energy and patience for the problems you didn't foresee.

> and then make sure you follow through!! it works
> wonders, takes a little while, but they get used to it and pretty
> soon they'll just 'know'.

It works wonders because they learn to fear you. Is that what you want?

So when she runs into a problem in life (pressure to have sex
perhaps) and she fears what you'll do or say because it's going
against what you want her to do, where will she go? Who will she turn
to?

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 23, 2008, at 1:07 AM, Adrean Clark wrote:

> Is it possible to be gentle even in dire straits? Or is it that we
> are able to do this because of our affluence?

Absolutely. Just lots lots harder. And, as with Maslow's hierarchy of
needs, the further down on the pyramid the needs aren't getting met,
the more difficult it is.

Depends lots on personality and how someone was raised too. If
someone was raised deprived, or raised needing to fight for what they
needed, a threat to a need is more likely to make them turn inward
and protect themselves at others' expense.

Too many factors to judge how an individual will react or to make
sweeping judgments about how people will react. But it's certainly
*possible* if the factors are right.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 23, 2008, at 11:59 PM, brad jones wrote:

> t I sincerely do not think she fears me like that, since 99% of the
> time she and I negotiate instead of me bullying her, so she isn't as
> scared and frightened and bullied as you think she is...

You negotiate with an adversary.

We work together as a team.

It has a different tone - and a very different long-term result.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

I watched the TED talk and thought it was very much "trained" it
seemed too controlled and not spontaneous like they monkeys just did
it in their own enviroment or were teaching each other- we already
know we can train animals I was looking for it to be more
spontaneous and it did not appear that way.

Julie



--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>
> Krisula,
> Thanks for posting that! I like TED talks in general and this one
in
> particular was very interesting!
>
> On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Krisula <krisula@...> wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > >>On Mar 22, 2008, at 11:04 PM, Heather wrote:
> >
> > >> For example, giving monkeys raisins as a reward for each
correct
> > >> step in
> > >> solving a puzzle (such as opening a mechanical latch with
several
> > >> moving
> > >> parts) actually interferes with the solving, because it
distracts the
> > >> monkeys. They enjoy the task for its own sake."
> >
> > >Pam Soroosh responded:
> > >I wonder how they know that the interference is due to
distraction.
> > >From my economist's point of view - it makes sense. If they
reward
> > >them with a raisin for all the steps involved in solving a
puzzle,
> > >then by the time they get close to actually solving it, they've
> > >already had a number of raisins and additional raisins are
worth less
> > >to them, so they don't work as hard to get them. They're
working for
> > >raisins, not for the value of solving the puzzle, and the
raisins have
> > >diminishing marginal utility.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> >
> > I thought you guys might like to see these Bonobo's and how some
of them
> > learned to say "words" write symbols they had learned and even
play pacman
> > all in an open ended rich, environment. Very different from
behaviorist
> > training and very interesting.
> > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/76
> >
> > Krisula
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>