Newbie with questions about unschooly bedtimes and food
alisongolden
Hi:
I have 8yo twin boys, one of whom is at home, the other has chosen to
remain at school. We pulled out DS1 7 weeks ago and three weeks ago
went to unschooling. I have read tons and am slowly "getting it" but
still have many moments where I don't know what to do.
How do you get an 8yo, who is still awake when the parents need to
sleep, to go to bed ?
We removed limits to TV watching three weeks ago and it's been pretty
much wall-to-wall TV since then. That's OK. Last week, I decided to
try removing the bedtimes, letting them watch TV until they were ready
to go to bed. The limit I put on it was that it was to be quiet time
in preparation for bed and they had to go to their rooms when we (the
adults) wanted to go to bed as it wasn't safe for them at their age to
be up with no adults around.
The first night, I wanted to go to bed at 10pm and they went to their
rooms and read until they were sleepy. A success. Second night, I
turned the TV off at 8:30pm because they were rough housing and they
went to their rooms to read quietly until they were ready to sleep.
Third night, DS2 took himself off to bed but DS1 was still awake at
10:30pm and refused to go to his room when I needed to go to bed. This
set up a power struggle with me staying firm with the limit and him
lying on the floor refusing to move. It was really unpleasant at that
time of night. I want to respect his need to choose but also he needs
to be safe and I don't feel he is when I am in bed. He's also waking
up later and later which makes it harder and harder for him to go to
sleep earlier than his parents so I feel I need to do something
different before things get worse.
Ifeel like I'm doing something wrong here. Are my limits reasonable?
Too reasonable for kids their age? Do I just need to keep reinforcing
what is acceptable/safe to me? Perhaps I'm doing something wrong
earlier in the day? And what to do when he struggles with me?
Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks for listening..
Alison
I have 8yo twin boys, one of whom is at home, the other has chosen to
remain at school. We pulled out DS1 7 weeks ago and three weeks ago
went to unschooling. I have read tons and am slowly "getting it" but
still have many moments where I don't know what to do.
How do you get an 8yo, who is still awake when the parents need to
sleep, to go to bed ?
We removed limits to TV watching three weeks ago and it's been pretty
much wall-to-wall TV since then. That's OK. Last week, I decided to
try removing the bedtimes, letting them watch TV until they were ready
to go to bed. The limit I put on it was that it was to be quiet time
in preparation for bed and they had to go to their rooms when we (the
adults) wanted to go to bed as it wasn't safe for them at their age to
be up with no adults around.
The first night, I wanted to go to bed at 10pm and they went to their
rooms and read until they were sleepy. A success. Second night, I
turned the TV off at 8:30pm because they were rough housing and they
went to their rooms to read quietly until they were ready to sleep.
Third night, DS2 took himself off to bed but DS1 was still awake at
10:30pm and refused to go to his room when I needed to go to bed. This
set up a power struggle with me staying firm with the limit and him
lying on the floor refusing to move. It was really unpleasant at that
time of night. I want to respect his need to choose but also he needs
to be safe and I don't feel he is when I am in bed. He's also waking
up later and later which makes it harder and harder for him to go to
sleep earlier than his parents so I feel I need to do something
different before things get worse.
Ifeel like I'm doing something wrong here. Are my limits reasonable?
Too reasonable for kids their age? Do I just need to keep reinforcing
what is acceptable/safe to me? Perhaps I'm doing something wrong
earlier in the day? And what to do when he struggles with me?
Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks for listening..
Alison
alisongolden
Oh, I forgot in my anxiety about bedtimes, the thing about food. Many
foods affect his behavior but since unschooling, I am fairly relaxed
because he isn't under as much stress. However, some behaviors like
those from milk, are really difficult to handle and keep him safe so I
limit them. But then when I am not around , he appeals to other people
to give him food - his dad, friends, other mothers, kids in the park.
Milk makes him hyper/obstinate/reckless. He wanted some yesterday and
I said no, offered him an alternative and explained why. When I went
out for a haircut, he told his dad I had said he could have some. He
got some. His challenge at bedtime yesterday may well have been the
result of the milk, but if he resorts to lies to get what he wants,
what to do? Again, not sure what is the unschooly way to handle things
here. I am open to anything. We are in a process of recovery with him,
trying to move from control to trust. On both sides.
Alison
foods affect his behavior but since unschooling, I am fairly relaxed
because he isn't under as much stress. However, some behaviors like
those from milk, are really difficult to handle and keep him safe so I
limit them. But then when I am not around , he appeals to other people
to give him food - his dad, friends, other mothers, kids in the park.
Milk makes him hyper/obstinate/reckless. He wanted some yesterday and
I said no, offered him an alternative and explained why. When I went
out for a haircut, he told his dad I had said he could have some. He
got some. His challenge at bedtime yesterday may well have been the
result of the milk, but if he resorts to lies to get what he wants,
what to do? Again, not sure what is the unschooly way to handle things
here. I am open to anything. We are in a process of recovery with him,
trying to move from control to trust. On both sides.
Alison
Adrean Clark
Yay more moms of twins here! ;) I'm Adrean, my sons are 4-year-old
twins and an 8-year-old. Bedtimes were rough for us pre-unschooling
-- we'd sit for hours on end getting the twins to calm down and sleep.
I used to feel that I had to put the kids to bed because of school
the next day. That was rough!
One of the twins wanted to keep going to preschool but it was
difficult trying to match four different schedules to the rigids of
the school system. It's not impossible but there are trade-offs. For
us, it took some time, it was not a quick lightbulb going off in their
head that it's bedtime. I try to start winding things down well
before bedtime and before I know I'm getting grumpy. Lights go off,
puttering around, snuggling with the kids, offering books to read,
toothbrushes, pajamas, etc. If the boys say they want to go to bed I
try to respond quickly so that they don't learn to push bedtime off.
I also try to offer them plenty of time to burn off energy outside and
even at McDonald's indoor playground.
Because your son just started with the TV no-limit it could take
months before he has had his fill. The process is slow and very open
to adaptation. I'm sorry to say but for my son it was the computer.
The beginning was a huge struggle - I made lots of mistakes but it
seems that letting the brakes go off slowly instead of completely
freeing everything helped with the meltdowns and drama.
The other twin eventually chose to stay at home, so we are free to
work out everyone's rhythms. It takes time.
Adrean
twins and an 8-year-old. Bedtimes were rough for us pre-unschooling
-- we'd sit for hours on end getting the twins to calm down and sleep.
I used to feel that I had to put the kids to bed because of school
the next day. That was rough!
One of the twins wanted to keep going to preschool but it was
difficult trying to match four different schedules to the rigids of
the school system. It's not impossible but there are trade-offs. For
us, it took some time, it was not a quick lightbulb going off in their
head that it's bedtime. I try to start winding things down well
before bedtime and before I know I'm getting grumpy. Lights go off,
puttering around, snuggling with the kids, offering books to read,
toothbrushes, pajamas, etc. If the boys say they want to go to bed I
try to respond quickly so that they don't learn to push bedtime off.
I also try to offer them plenty of time to burn off energy outside and
even at McDonald's indoor playground.
Because your son just started with the TV no-limit it could take
months before he has had his fill. The process is slow and very open
to adaptation. I'm sorry to say but for my son it was the computer.
The beginning was a huge struggle - I made lots of mistakes but it
seems that letting the brakes go off slowly instead of completely
freeing everything helped with the meltdowns and drama.
The other twin eventually chose to stay at home, so we are free to
work out everyone's rhythms. It takes time.
Adrean
[email protected]
The sneaking/lying/reckless behavior is EXACTLY what results when
things are withheld from us. Same with video games and TV and sugar
and---whatever it is we *want*.
I'm always amazed that *anyone* would choose milk. <g> YUCK!
Does *HE* make the connection that milk makes him
hyper/obstinate/reckless? Does he care? Does it make him feel *bad*? Or
does it just force *you* to work harder?
Does his father not *know* about this issue? Why would his father do
something he knows would cause problems?
Do you keep milk in the house? Why?
I'm sorry, I forgot how old he is.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: alisongolden <alisongolden@...>
Oh, I forgot in my anxiety about bedtimes, the thing about food. Many
foods affect his behavior but since unschooling, I am fairly relaxed
because he isn't under as much stress. However, some behaviors like
those from milk, are really difficult to handle and keep him safe so I
limit them. But then when I am not around , he appeals to other people
to give him food - his dad, friends, other mothers, kids in the park.
Milk makes him hyper/obstinate/reckless. He wanted some yesterday and
I said no, offered him an alternative and explained why. When I went
out for a haircut, he told his dad I had said he could have some. He
got some. His challenge at bedtime yesterday may well have been the
result of the milk, but if he resorts to lies to get what he wants,
what to do? Again, not sure what is the unschooly way to handle things
here. I am open to anything. We are in a process of recovery with him,
trying to move from control to trust. On both sides.
Alison
things are withheld from us. Same with video games and TV and sugar
and---whatever it is we *want*.
I'm always amazed that *anyone* would choose milk. <g> YUCK!
Does *HE* make the connection that milk makes him
hyper/obstinate/reckless? Does he care? Does it make him feel *bad*? Or
does it just force *you* to work harder?
Does his father not *know* about this issue? Why would his father do
something he knows would cause problems?
Do you keep milk in the house? Why?
I'm sorry, I forgot how old he is.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: alisongolden <alisongolden@...>
Oh, I forgot in my anxiety about bedtimes, the thing about food. Many
foods affect his behavior but since unschooling, I am fairly relaxed
because he isn't under as much stress. However, some behaviors like
those from milk, are really difficult to handle and keep him safe so I
limit them. But then when I am not around , he appeals to other people
to give him food - his dad, friends, other mothers, kids in the park.
Milk makes him hyper/obstinate/reckless. He wanted some yesterday and
I said no, offered him an alternative and explained why. When I went
out for a haircut, he told his dad I had said he could have some. He
got some. His challenge at bedtime yesterday may well have been the
result of the milk, but if he resorts to lies to get what he wants,
what to do? Again, not sure what is the unschooly way to handle things
here. I am open to anything. We are in a process of recovery with him,
trying to move from control to trust. On both sides.
Alison
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 17, 2008, at 1:43 PM, alisongolden wrote:
get from something. My daughter spent 2 months in 2nd grade, enjoying
a lot of it. Eventually the specialness wore off and all she had left
were the bad parts and a handful of good things. It good wasn't worth
putting up with the bad stuff any more. But *she* decided when enough
was enough.
Until *he* decides it's not worth it, then all you're doing is making
milk something to beg (and lie and sneak) for. You're giving him
opportunities to learn how to be dishonest.
Help him find alternatives that he enjoys but allow *him* to decide
which he chooses. For a while he's going to decide on milk until he's
gotten his fill of the good part and the bad part isn't worth it any
more.
And he'll continue to choose milk occasionally. As he should since
his reaction could very well change as he gets older.
Be his partner in helping him find ways to be happy, but don't force
your version of happiness on him.
It would also help to find alternatives for the whole family but when
he (or someone else) asks, buy some milk. Deciding not to choose milk
will happen a whole lot faster when he doesn't feel deprived of it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Milk makes him hyper/obstinate/reckless. He wanted some yesterday andSometimes putting up with unpleasant side effects is worth what you
> I said no, offered him an alternative and explained why.
get from something. My daughter spent 2 months in 2nd grade, enjoying
a lot of it. Eventually the specialness wore off and all she had left
were the bad parts and a handful of good things. It good wasn't worth
putting up with the bad stuff any more. But *she* decided when enough
was enough.
Until *he* decides it's not worth it, then all you're doing is making
milk something to beg (and lie and sneak) for. You're giving him
opportunities to learn how to be dishonest.
Help him find alternatives that he enjoys but allow *him* to decide
which he chooses. For a while he's going to decide on milk until he's
gotten his fill of the good part and the bad part isn't worth it any
more.
And he'll continue to choose milk occasionally. As he should since
his reaction could very well change as he gets older.
Be his partner in helping him find ways to be happy, but don't force
your version of happiness on him.
It would also help to find alternatives for the whole family but when
he (or someone else) asks, buy some milk. Deciding not to choose milk
will happen a whole lot faster when he doesn't feel deprived of it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharissa13
I have to argue that choosing "no milk" will come
eventually. My son loved milk.. he'd drink it all day
long. But he also never slept a night in his life. At
first, the doctor (and everyone else) said that he was
a baby and needed to settle down to a schedule. But
this went on for 5 years.. he'd wake up 4-8 times a
night crying. A sip or two of milk would put him right
back to sleep, only to wake up again another hour or
two later. Eventually, the doctor blamed me.... trying
to insist that I was doing something wrong that was
making my son wake up so frequently.
After 5 years of this, I took away all milk products.
Yes, my son was unhappy. And no, he didn't adjust to
any of the "alternative milks". But you know what?
Three nights later, he was sleeping through the night.
And he sleeps soundly through the night, every night
now.
Last year, we decided to try milk again. You'd not
believe how happy my son was. But all it took was a
few days. Each night got a little worse. From restless
sleeping, to moaning and groaning in his sleep.
Finally, he woke up screaming one night and threw up
all over. That is what milk does to him.
And I understand that normal children can be talked to
and have things explained. But my son is autistic, and
did not understand that cow milk makes him sick. He's
9 now, and has been told that cow dairy makes him sick
(he repeats it to me all the time), and I think he
understands. I learned, after researching, that my son
cannot digest the fat globules of cow milk. He is,
however, fine with goat milk. Hence, I allow him all
the goat dairy he'd like.
I like unschooling, and I firmly believe that children
need to be allowed to make their choices. But this is
one area, for us, that got dealt with in this manner.
I'm sure I could have used a better approach, but I've
only started unschooling for a little over a year,
whereas my son has been off cow dairy for 5 years. I
did what I thought of at the time.
(Sorry if this comes across as aggressive. I really
don't mean it to be.)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
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eventually. My son loved milk.. he'd drink it all day
long. But he also never slept a night in his life. At
first, the doctor (and everyone else) said that he was
a baby and needed to settle down to a schedule. But
this went on for 5 years.. he'd wake up 4-8 times a
night crying. A sip or two of milk would put him right
back to sleep, only to wake up again another hour or
two later. Eventually, the doctor blamed me.... trying
to insist that I was doing something wrong that was
making my son wake up so frequently.
After 5 years of this, I took away all milk products.
Yes, my son was unhappy. And no, he didn't adjust to
any of the "alternative milks". But you know what?
Three nights later, he was sleeping through the night.
And he sleeps soundly through the night, every night
now.
Last year, we decided to try milk again. You'd not
believe how happy my son was. But all it took was a
few days. Each night got a little worse. From restless
sleeping, to moaning and groaning in his sleep.
Finally, he woke up screaming one night and threw up
all over. That is what milk does to him.
And I understand that normal children can be talked to
and have things explained. But my son is autistic, and
did not understand that cow milk makes him sick. He's
9 now, and has been told that cow dairy makes him sick
(he repeats it to me all the time), and I think he
understands. I learned, after researching, that my son
cannot digest the fat globules of cow milk. He is,
however, fine with goat milk. Hence, I allow him all
the goat dairy he'd like.
I like unschooling, and I firmly believe that children
need to be allowed to make their choices. But this is
one area, for us, that got dealt with in this manner.
I'm sure I could have used a better approach, but I've
only started unschooling for a little over a year,
whereas my son has been off cow dairy for 5 years. I
did what I thought of at the time.
(Sorry if this comes across as aggressive. I really
don't mean it to be.)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 18, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Sharissa13 wrote:
Though, the way you forced the knowledge on him did come at a price.
Can you imagine going for several years with your husband forbidding
you to have something you love? How would it affect your craving for
what you love? How would it affect your relationship with him? What
would it feel like he was saying about you by his actions?
This list is all about putting relationships first and then figuring
out how to fit the rest in around that.
It feels justified because the outcome was positive. But what if ...
what if he'd out grown it? What if he had milk last year with no
adverse reaction?
How would you feel if your husband let you have your loved thing and,
gee, you were fine. Oops. He could *say* well, maybe you out grew the
problem just yesterday. But it could have been the day after the
limit. He could *say* I did it because I love you. But would it feel
like love to you? Years of someone controlling you because they
didn't trust you to make the decision they thought was best.
Is the price of the damage to the relationship worth what is gained
*when there are other options*?
I think where people get hung up is in deciding their child needs to
make the decision the parent believes is the right one *right now*.
And how can you *make* someone decide the way you want them to? Force
seems the only option.
But if we let go of the right now need, we can help our kids learn
about themselves at their own pace. We can help them understand their
options and the pros and cons. It won't happen overnight the way
limits will but it doesn't damage the relationship *and* the child
gets to know who they are and figure out something for themselves.
You *could* have said "Someone told me that milk can make it hard for
some people to fall asleep." and offered to help him try for several
days to see how it went. And then tried milk again. If this were a
current problem I'm sure others could come up with other ideas on
what might work or what did work for their kids.
(No, you don't need to tell me how that wouldn't have worked for your
individual child. We throw out the ideas. People who are trying to
find ways to put the relationships first figure out how to make it
work for their family.)
It's helpful to think in terms of "How can I help him with this
problem?" rather than "How can I get him to the solution I think is
right?"
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But my son is autistic, andAnd now he does, so he can make more informed decisions.
> did not understand that cow milk makes him sick.
Though, the way you forced the knowledge on him did come at a price.
Can you imagine going for several years with your husband forbidding
you to have something you love? How would it affect your craving for
what you love? How would it affect your relationship with him? What
would it feel like he was saying about you by his actions?
This list is all about putting relationships first and then figuring
out how to fit the rest in around that.
It feels justified because the outcome was positive. But what if ...
what if he'd out grown it? What if he had milk last year with no
adverse reaction?
How would you feel if your husband let you have your loved thing and,
gee, you were fine. Oops. He could *say* well, maybe you out grew the
problem just yesterday. But it could have been the day after the
limit. He could *say* I did it because I love you. But would it feel
like love to you? Years of someone controlling you because they
didn't trust you to make the decision they thought was best.
Is the price of the damage to the relationship worth what is gained
*when there are other options*?
I think where people get hung up is in deciding their child needs to
make the decision the parent believes is the right one *right now*.
And how can you *make* someone decide the way you want them to? Force
seems the only option.
But if we let go of the right now need, we can help our kids learn
about themselves at their own pace. We can help them understand their
options and the pros and cons. It won't happen overnight the way
limits will but it doesn't damage the relationship *and* the child
gets to know who they are and figure out something for themselves.
You *could* have said "Someone told me that milk can make it hard for
some people to fall asleep." and offered to help him try for several
days to see how it went. And then tried milk again. If this were a
current problem I'm sure others could come up with other ideas on
what might work or what did work for their kids.
(No, you don't need to tell me how that wouldn't have worked for your
individual child. We throw out the ideas. People who are trying to
find ways to put the relationships first figure out how to make it
work for their family.)
It's helpful to think in terms of "How can I help him with this
problem?" rather than "How can I get him to the solution I think is
right?"
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brad jones
Joyce, you do realize this child is autistic right?
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 11:51:11 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly bedtimes and food
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 11:51:11 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly bedtimes and food
On Mar 18, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Sharissa13 wrote:
> But my son is autistic, and
> did not understand that cow milk makes him sick.
And now he does, so he can make more informed decisions.
Though, the way you forced the knowledge on him did come at a price.
Can you imagine going for several years with your husband forbidding
you to have something you love? How would it affect your craving for
what you love? How would it affect your relationship with him? What
would it feel like he was saying about you by his actions?
This list is all about putting relationships first and then figuring
out how to fit the rest in around that.
It feels justified because the outcome was positive. But what if ...
what if he'd out grown it? What if he had milk last year with no
adverse reaction?
How would you feel if your husband let you have your loved thing and,
gee, you were fine. Oops. He could *say* well, maybe you out grew the
problem just yesterday. But it could have been the day after the
limit. He could *say* I did it because I love you. But would it feel
like love to you? Years of someone controlling you because they
didn't trust you to make the decision they thought was best.
Is the price of the damage to the relationship worth what is gained
*when there are other options*?
I think where people get hung up is in deciding their child needs to
make the decision the parent believes is the right one *right now*.
And how can you *make* someone decide the way you want them to? Force
seems the only option.
But if we let go of the right now need, we can help our kids learn
about themselves at their own pace. We can help them understand their
options and the pros and cons. It won't happen overnight the way
limits will but it doesn't damage the relationship *and* the child
gets to know who they are and figure out something for themselves.
You *could* have said "Someone told me that milk can make it hard for
some people to fall asleep." and offered to help him try for several
days to see how it went. And then tried milk again. If this were a
current problem I'm sure others could come up with other ideas on
what might work or what did work for their kids.
(No, you don't need to tell me how that wouldn't have worked for your
individual child. We throw out the ideas. People who are trying to
find ways to put the relationships first figure out how to make it
work for their family.)
It's helpful to think in terms of "How can I help him with this
problem?" rather than "How can I get him to the solution I think is
right?"
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
Maybe it is not the milk that makes him this way but the perception
that it does- in other words many children are told that sugar and
candy MAKES them hyper so they can act wild and crazy and blame the
candy- If you tell them candy does not make act any different then
the expectation is not there-
Tell him you were wrong and the milk is perfectly ok for him and
that you were wrong and maybe it is peas- see how he responds-
many people drink alcohol because it gives them an excuse to act
dumb and claim that they do not know what they are doing-
Julie
--- In [email protected], "alisongolden"
<alisongolden@...> wrote:
that it does- in other words many children are told that sugar and
candy MAKES them hyper so they can act wild and crazy and blame the
candy- If you tell them candy does not make act any different then
the expectation is not there-
Tell him you were wrong and the milk is perfectly ok for him and
that you were wrong and maybe it is peas- see how he responds-
many people drink alcohol because it gives them an excuse to act
dumb and claim that they do not know what they are doing-
Julie
--- In [email protected], "alisongolden"
<alisongolden@...> wrote:
>Many
> Oh, I forgot in my anxiety about bedtimes, the thing about food.
> foods affect his behavior but since unschooling, I am fairlyrelaxed
> because he isn't under as much stress. However, some behaviors likeso I
> those from milk, are really difficult to handle and keep him safe
> limit them. But then when I am not around , he appeals to otherpeople
> to give him food - his dad, friends, other mothers, kids in thepark.
>and
> Milk makes him hyper/obstinate/reckless. He wanted some yesterday
> I said no, offered him an alternative and explained why. When Iwent
> out for a haircut, he told his dad I had said he could have some.He
> got some. His challenge at bedtime yesterday may well have been thethings
> result of the milk, but if he resorts to lies to get what he wants,
> what to do? Again, not sure what is the unschooly way to handle
> here. I am open to anything. We are in a process of recovery withhim,
> trying to move from control to trust. On both sides.
>
> Alison
>
Karen Swanay
Re: autism and milk
First, let's try some person first language if everyone doesn't mind.
A child isn't autisic he's a child WITH autism. He is also a boy. He
is also a boy who likes blue, tv, has red hair, black skin, whatever.
Defining a child by his "defects" is damaging. Hearing over and over
"My autistic son" means having Autism becomes that child's reality.
My daughter is a child *with* autism. It is not the sum total of who
she is.
OK milk. It's beta casein A1 that is linked to developing autism and
several other illnesses. I could find no research linking beta casein
to sleep disturbances and I wonder if perhaps a link was made in the
wrong place. Often (when I was a vet tech) people would tell me their
dog knows when it's been bad. If I asked them how they knew that they
would tell me "Oh when Fluffy has been bad she puts her ears down and
crawls on her belly...she is sorry and feeling guilty." PFFT! She's
come to link the owner's body language and bulging veins in the neck
to the yelling and beating that would come next. But the owner
thought that the dog made a different connection.
I'm not saying you are wrong with your milk/autism connection but I
would urge you to make really careful observations of his diet and
activities to be sure you have the right connection. Red dye is a
common antogonist so is high fructose corn syrup. Anyway, I hope you
have the right trigger and your troubles are behind you although I
wonder if your husband doesn't agree with your connection since he
will give your son milk.
Karen
First, let's try some person first language if everyone doesn't mind.
A child isn't autisic he's a child WITH autism. He is also a boy. He
is also a boy who likes blue, tv, has red hair, black skin, whatever.
Defining a child by his "defects" is damaging. Hearing over and over
"My autistic son" means having Autism becomes that child's reality.
My daughter is a child *with* autism. It is not the sum total of who
she is.
OK milk. It's beta casein A1 that is linked to developing autism and
several other illnesses. I could find no research linking beta casein
to sleep disturbances and I wonder if perhaps a link was made in the
wrong place. Often (when I was a vet tech) people would tell me their
dog knows when it's been bad. If I asked them how they knew that they
would tell me "Oh when Fluffy has been bad she puts her ears down and
crawls on her belly...she is sorry and feeling guilty." PFFT! She's
come to link the owner's body language and bulging veins in the neck
to the yelling and beating that would come next. But the owner
thought that the dog made a different connection.
I'm not saying you are wrong with your milk/autism connection but I
would urge you to make really careful observations of his diet and
activities to be sure you have the right connection. Red dye is a
common antogonist so is high fructose corn syrup. Anyway, I hope you
have the right trigger and your troubles are behind you although I
wonder if your husband doesn't agree with your connection since he
will give your son milk.
Karen
carnationsgalore
> First, let's try some person first language if everyone doesn'tActually, I disagree. My son is high functioning autistic. He has
> mind. A child isn't autisic he's a child WITH autism.
> Defining a child by his "defects" is damaging. Hearing over and
> over "My autistic son" means having Autism becomes that child's
> reality.
Asperger's Syndrome. It *is* who he is, as in one part of his whole.
We don't like to separate it from his whole self because that makes it
seem like it is something bad. His Asperger's is his reality because
it explains why he isn't like the other people that either 1) have
noticed he is different, and 2) that he has noticed he is different
from. If that makes any sense. We believe that his Asperger's is one
of the things that makes him special. Just to share another point of
view. :)
Beth M.
Karen Swanay
Ah I'm not saying to separate it and make it something bad at all.
But you wouldn't introduce a different child to a group by saying
"This is my fat daughter Lucy." Or "This is my bed wetting son
Steve." Or "This is Mike, he eats olives." It's not a label, it
shouldn't be a label. It is part of them, and it's not bad. I do not
wish Morgan was neurotypical but I certainly wouldn't introduce her as
being autistic. If she's odd, she's odd. If you know me well enough
to ask why she's odd you won't have to ask. If you have to ask, you
don't know me well enough to be asking.
I don't know, I guess because I have my own "issues" I see it
differently I guess. I just don't want Morgan defined by someone
else's idea. You say "Autism" and everyone thinks biting,
headbanging, no eye contact, refusal to speak...and it's just not
true. But as you say, it's a difference of perspective. And you and
I are both right =)
Karen
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:00 PM, carnationsgalore
<addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
But you wouldn't introduce a different child to a group by saying
"This is my fat daughter Lucy." Or "This is my bed wetting son
Steve." Or "This is Mike, he eats olives." It's not a label, it
shouldn't be a label. It is part of them, and it's not bad. I do not
wish Morgan was neurotypical but I certainly wouldn't introduce her as
being autistic. If she's odd, she's odd. If you know me well enough
to ask why she's odd you won't have to ask. If you have to ask, you
don't know me well enough to be asking.
I don't know, I guess because I have my own "issues" I see it
differently I guess. I just don't want Morgan defined by someone
else's idea. You say "Autism" and everyone thinks biting,
headbanging, no eye contact, refusal to speak...and it's just not
true. But as you say, it's a difference of perspective. And you and
I are both right =)
Karen
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:00 PM, carnationsgalore
<addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
>-
> Actually, I disagree. My son is high functioning autistic. He has
> Asperger's Syndrome. It *is* who he is, as in one part of his whole.
> We don't like to separate it from his whole self because that makes it
> seem like it is something bad. His Asperger's is his reality because
> it explains why he isn't like the other people that either 1) have
> noticed he is different, and 2) that he has noticed he is different
> from. If that makes any sense. We believe that his Asperger's is one
> of the things that makes him special. Just to share another point of
> view. :)
>
> Beth M.
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], Sharissa13 <sharissa13@...>
wrote:
altered through the homogenization process and many people find raw
milk does not bother them. Maybe a local farmer?
Kids who are autistic can be given autonomy also, it just takes a lot
more time for most of them to learn the things that some children find
easier. I still think that finding solutions that work for everyone is
just as important and being your child's partner. How that looks with
an autistic child will vary a lot, but the underlying philosophy is to
try and find ways to meet the underlying need.
If he really loves milk, it might take some tweaking to find an
agreeable alternative but I bet it can be done!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
wrote:
>Have you ever tried raw cow milk? Much of the enzymes and fats are
> I have to argue that choosing "no milk" will come
> eventually. My son loved milk.. he'd drink it all day
> long.
altered through the homogenization process and many people find raw
milk does not bother them. Maybe a local farmer?
Kids who are autistic can be given autonomy also, it just takes a lot
more time for most of them to learn the things that some children find
easier. I still think that finding solutions that work for everyone is
just as important and being your child's partner. How that looks with
an autistic child will vary a lot, but the underlying philosophy is to
try and find ways to meet the underlying need.
If he really loves milk, it might take some tweaking to find an
agreeable alternative but I bet it can be done!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 18, 2008, at 1:33 PM, brad jones wrote:
kids. Each parent needs to figure out how to make it work for their
own family.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Joyce, you do realize this child is autistic right?Yes, I know. The philosophy of respect and trust is the same for all
kids. Each parent needs to figure out how to make it work for their
own family.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> How do you get an 8yo, who is still awake when the parents need toI've seen this discussed a lot. I've been in this situation because
> sleep, to go to bed ?
my kids can always outlast me when we're staying up late. Since you
don't feel he is safe alone perhaps in the living room (?), then
give him a safe space to be in. Does he share a room with his
brother? My two daughters, ages 10 and 15, share a room by choice.
Noise and lights don't bother either one of them so it's okay that
they don't keep the same hours. My dd10 regularly stays up until
1:00am or 2:00am, way beyond when I've dropped off. She has
everything she needs in her room though. She has a tv with cable,
her own computer and a desk where she can do art. I'm not saying
every child needs these particular things, but they are things that
my dd10 enjoys. She also reads or plays her Nintendo DS in bed.
She doesn't mind staying up in her own room, though we're fine with
her being in the living room if she chose to do so.
My ds11 doesn't like being up at night if my DH or I are not awake.
He reads in bed for a short while and then goes to sleep. He also
has a tv, computer, all his toys, and a desk, but he doesn't like
being out of bed. He and his younger sister wouldn't mind staying
awake together but they know they tend to get loud and they don't
like to disturb their dad's sleep. DH wakes early in the mornings.
Occasionally, I'll stay up later and the three of us (two kids and
myself) will do quiet things.
Maybe you can talk with your son to see what he'd like to do when
you are ready for bed. If he wants to watch tv but there isn't one
in his room, can you give him a small tv that plays DVDs if he can't
have cable? Does he have a handheld game system that he'd like to
play? Does he like puzzle books? How about a deck of cards to play
solitaire? A sketch book and drawing pencil? A set of magnetix or
a small lego kit?
Do his hours bother you? If he's entertained in bed, he might stay
up later and sleep longer in the morning. My dd10 sleeps until
about 12 noon nearly every day. It used to bother my DH because he
felt like she was sleeping away the day. I had to help him see that
she is getting the sleep her body needs and it doesn't matter if
it's 1:00am to 12 noon or 9:00pm to 8:00am. I too need 10 - 11
hours of sleep per day but I do it in two shifts. I sleep from
about 11:00pm to 7:00am, and take a nap in the late morning around
10:00am. I know my dd10 actually enjoys the quiet hours at night to
focus on things for herself. I feel the same way about my morning
hours from 7:00am to 10:00am. :)
Beth M.
brad jones
<heading off to do some serious re-education on autism> thanks for this eye opener.....
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly bedtimes and food
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly bedtimes and food
On Mar 18, 2008, at 1:33 PM, brad jones wrote:
> Joyce, you do realize this child is autistic right?
Yes, I know. The philosophy of respect and trust is the same for all
kids. Each parent needs to figure out how to make it work for their
own family.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrew and Cecily Paterson
IMO The best place for educating yourself on autism is through the
Relationship Development Intervention (RDI) - based in Houston, but with
consultants around the US in various places. Try www.connectionscentre.com
(I think...) In my experience with my 4yo son it really does WORK - the aim
is to go back, break down the normal child neural development into
achievable bits and help the child make the right connections in their brain
on their own so as to develop relationships - not just turn into an
automaton who memorizes 'social stories' and things to say but can't relate
properly. RDI led us to drastically change our parenting, and in turn led
us to unschooling. A great journey.
Re the milk allergy thing. The trouble is that in a lot of kids the
undigested proteins go into the brain and act in the same way as morphine
would, so the poor little thing is not thinking straight to make any
decisions. My son was effectively drugged out for the first 3 years of his
life because I gave him the milk he craved - like an addiction.
Ciao, Cecily
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of brad jones
Sent: Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
<heading off to do some serious re-education on autism> thanks for this eye
opener.....
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...
<mailto:jfetteroll%40verizon.net> >
To: [email protected]
<mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
Relationship Development Intervention (RDI) - based in Houston, but with
consultants around the US in various places. Try www.connectionscentre.com
(I think...) In my experience with my 4yo son it really does WORK - the aim
is to go back, break down the normal child neural development into
achievable bits and help the child make the right connections in their brain
on their own so as to develop relationships - not just turn into an
automaton who memorizes 'social stories' and things to say but can't relate
properly. RDI led us to drastically change our parenting, and in turn led
us to unschooling. A great journey.
Re the milk allergy thing. The trouble is that in a lot of kids the
undigested proteins go into the brain and act in the same way as morphine
would, so the poor little thing is not thinking straight to make any
decisions. My son was effectively drugged out for the first 3 years of his
life because I gave him the milk he craved - like an addiction.
Ciao, Cecily
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of brad jones
Sent: Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
<heading off to do some serious re-education on autism> thanks for this eye
opener.....
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...
<mailto:jfetteroll%40verizon.net> >
To: [email protected]
<mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
On Mar 18, 2008, at 1:33 PM, brad jones wrote:
> Joyce, you do realize this child is autistic right?
Yes, I know. The philosophy of respect and trust is the same for all
kids. Each parent needs to figure out how to make it work for their
own family.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brad jones
Thanks for the info...
----- Original Message ----
From: Andrew and Cecily Paterson <tuipiri@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:18:03 AM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly bedtimes and food
IMO The best place for educating yourself on autism is through the
Relationship Development Intervention (RDI) - based in Houston, but with
consultants around the US in various places. Try www.connectionscent re.com
(I think...) In my experience with my 4yo son it really does WORK - the aim
is to go back, break down the normal child neural development into
achievable bits and help the child make the right connections in their brain
on their own so as to develop relationships - not just turn into an
automaton who memorizes 'social stories' and things to say but can't relate
properly. RDI led us to drastically change our parenting, and in turn led
us to unschooling. A great journey.
Re the milk allergy thing. The trouble is that in a lot of kids the
undigested proteins go into the brain and act in the same way as morphine
would, so the poor little thing is not thinking straight to make any
decisions. My son was effectively drugged out for the first 3 years of his
life because I gave him the milk he craved - like an addiction.
Ciao, Cecily
From: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of brad jones
Sent: Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:00 PM
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
<heading off to do some serious re-education on autism> thanks for this eye
opener.....
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net
<mailto:jfetteroll% 40verizon. net> >
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:unschooling basics%40yahoogr oups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
----- Original Message ----
From: Andrew and Cecily Paterson <tuipiri@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:18:03 AM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly bedtimes and food
IMO The best place for educating yourself on autism is through the
Relationship Development Intervention (RDI) - based in Houston, but with
consultants around the US in various places. Try www.connectionscent re.com
(I think...) In my experience with my 4yo son it really does WORK - the aim
is to go back, break down the normal child neural development into
achievable bits and help the child make the right connections in their brain
on their own so as to develop relationships - not just turn into an
automaton who memorizes 'social stories' and things to say but can't relate
properly. RDI led us to drastically change our parenting, and in turn led
us to unschooling. A great journey.
Re the milk allergy thing. The trouble is that in a lot of kids the
undigested proteins go into the brain and act in the same way as morphine
would, so the poor little thing is not thinking straight to make any
decisions. My son was effectively drugged out for the first 3 years of his
life because I gave him the milk he craved - like an addiction.
Ciao, Cecily
From: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of brad jones
Sent: Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:00 PM
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
<heading off to do some serious re-education on autism> thanks for this eye
opener.....
----- Original Message ----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net
<mailto:jfetteroll% 40verizon. net> >
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:unschooling basics%40yahoogr oups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Newbie with questions about unschooly
bedtimes and food
On Mar 18, 2008, at 1:33 PM, brad jones wrote:
> Joyce, you do realize this child is autistic right?
Yes, I know. The philosophy of respect and trust is the same for all
kids. Each parent needs to figure out how to make it work for their
own family.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~heading off to do some serious re-education on autism> thanks for
this eye opener.....~~
The severity of issues greatly effects how the philosophies play out
with each child. It's about meeting their needs and helping them
explore the world in a safe and empowering manner.
I know someone with two littles that are adopted with pretty intense
issues AND has three autistic children. She still believes in helping
them have autonomy and choices and the underlying philosophy is trust,
while working with each child's challenges.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
this eye opener.....~~
The severity of issues greatly effects how the philosophies play out
with each child. It's about meeting their needs and helping them
explore the world in a safe and empowering manner.
I know someone with two littles that are adopted with pretty intense
issues AND has three autistic children. She still believes in helping
them have autonomy and choices and the underlying philosophy is trust,
while working with each child's challenges.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 17, 2008, at 1:17 PM, alisongolden wrote:
limits! ;-) Kids who've been controlled who have their cages removed
tend to go wild. And attempts to reason with them sound like mom
putting the cage back. And they're going to fight that.
Don't put a limit on it. Make it part of the deal.
It sounds like a word shift but it's a mental shift. Rather than
controlling them to get what you want, work together so everyone gets
what they want. Talk about this during the day and work together so
everyone gets their needs met.
Priority: Dad needs to sleep. He has a job he needs to get up for so
you can continue to have money for food and a roof over your head.
How can they help him do that? Talk about what they need at night.
Talk about how to provide that so they can stay quiet. And if they
can't be quiet, they need to be in their rooms and in bed. It's not a
rule. It's polite. It's part of the privilege of staying up that they
must be quiet.
With a rule, kids get punished for breaking it. When it's part of the
deal, you talk about what happened and why as a way to come up with a
solution to fix it for the next night so it doesn't happen again.
Focus on the problem rather than turning them into the problem.
When they see you working hard, treating their needs seriously, they
won't need to fight and defy what feel like rules to get their needs
met. The shift in them from grabbing what they can to trusting you
won't necessarily happen at once, but trust that they don't want to
be rude or hurtful or mean. Assume that they've learned to use force
to get what they want because they didn't trust that you took their
needs seriously.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The limit I put on it was that it was to be quiet timeThis is why people recommend saying yes more rather than removing
> in preparation for bed and they had to go to their rooms when we (the
> adults) wanted to go to bed as it wasn't safe for them at their age to
> be up with no adults around.
limits! ;-) Kids who've been controlled who have their cages removed
tend to go wild. And attempts to reason with them sound like mom
putting the cage back. And they're going to fight that.
Don't put a limit on it. Make it part of the deal.
It sounds like a word shift but it's a mental shift. Rather than
controlling them to get what you want, work together so everyone gets
what they want. Talk about this during the day and work together so
everyone gets their needs met.
Priority: Dad needs to sleep. He has a job he needs to get up for so
you can continue to have money for food and a roof over your head.
How can they help him do that? Talk about what they need at night.
Talk about how to provide that so they can stay quiet. And if they
can't be quiet, they need to be in their rooms and in bed. It's not a
rule. It's polite. It's part of the privilege of staying up that they
must be quiet.
With a rule, kids get punished for breaking it. When it's part of the
deal, you talk about what happened and why as a way to come up with a
solution to fix it for the next night so it doesn't happen again.
Focus on the problem rather than turning them into the problem.
When they see you working hard, treating their needs seriously, they
won't need to fight and defy what feel like rules to get their needs
met. The shift in them from grabbing what they can to trusting you
won't necessarily happen at once, but trust that they don't want to
be rude or hurtful or mean. Assume that they've learned to use force
to get what they want because they didn't trust that you took their
needs seriously.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]