Stacey

My name is Stacey. i'm a homeschool parent of a 7,5 and 1 year old. i
have always been fascinated by unschooling, but have been met with much
resistance everytime i try to ask a question. maybe since this is
a 'basic' group, i may get more of an answer;)

my question is this: let the kids do what they want (i come from a
radical unschooling group) and follow their own interests. which is
good, in a way. but what happens if you have a child that goes through
high school, and never really 'got interested' in..what state he/she
lives in? or never had any desire to study grammar..do math past a
basic, elementary level? i know there are different learning
experences too, i'm not saying these aren't the most important, but to
simply allow kids to just 'do what they want'...shouldn't these things
be important too?
i'm on the boat, let them guide their education..within a certain frame
to ensure they do get their grammar/math in their too. i don't know. if
i could just get this questions answered, i would really appreciate
it.
stacey

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 16, 2008, at 1:43 PM, Stacey wrote:

> but what happens if you have a child that goes through
> high school, and never really 'got interested' in..what state he/she
> lives in?


Hypotheticals are not good for discussion because just because
something sounds as though it could happen doesn't mean it can happen.

The problem with hypotheticals is that they remove the why behind the
event and leave only the what.

*Why* would a child be uninterested in what state they live in? How
could that happen? How could it be that the state the child lives in
never come up in conversation, and the child never send a letter
anywhere, never be asked where they live ...?

> or never had any desire to study grammar

Does someone need to study grammar to know grammar?

The foundation of unschooling is that we learn how the world words
without someone telling us. We see stuff, we come up with theories on
how it works, we test the theories, we revise the theories. It's how
we're hardwired to learn.

School interferes with that natural process.

Think about the difference between how your kids learned to speak
English and how kids "learn" Spanish in a class room. Which works
naturally without us even realizing it? Which works, well, hardly at
all. The only word I remember from Spanish class that I don't hear in
real life is "la escritorio". (I think it's one of those weird
masculine words that gets a feminine article which is why I remember.
But, then again, I could be totally wrong!)

I guarantee that your kids know grammar. They aren't saying "Ball me
give red" are they?

School puts some formal language onto it. They can learn the formal
language *way* faster the more real life grammar they absorb and use.

> do math past a
> basic, elementary level?

If they don't need it for their interests, do they need it?

It's a serious question!

It's *so* hard to see real math in life because schools have made us
think math is the formal "grammar" that they shove down people's
throats. *Real* math is learning how numbers work. Once a child
grasps how numbers work -- how numbers can be manipulate to give the
information you want to get from them -- then they can grasp the
formal notation of addition, multiplication, percentages *much* easier.

They can't avoid manipulating numbers. Numbers are as much a part of
life as words are. Mathematical notation just helps people write it
down.

Read:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

scroll down on the left to the math section. There's probably more
about math scattered about too.

> i'm not saying these aren't the most important, but to
> simply allow kids to just 'do what they want'...shouldn't these things
> be important too?

You're seeing the knowledge as separate from real life. (Basically
because schools separate it from real life!)

Did you worry that they didn't sit down and study English as
toddlers? Did you worry that they wouldn't learn English because life
isn't full of spelling lists naturally encountered? Why didn't you
worry? Is learning English different than learning other things? Why
do you believe so? What's given you that idea?

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey

i guess what i was trying to say on grammar is 'just speaking',
doesn't necessarily mean your child 'understands' grammar. my kids
use nouns/verbs/adjectives on a daily basis. they use fragmented
sentences...there's a huge line of them, waiting for them on the
SAT/ACT when they graduate. but do they 'know' them? if asked, they
would have no idea what i was talking about. they use them, but don't
know them.
i guess that is where we misunderstood one another.
thanks for the site, though, and i will look at it.
stacey
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2008, at 1:43 PM, Stacey wrote:
>
> > but what happens if you have a child that goes through
> > high school, and never really 'got interested' in..what state
he/she
> > lives in?
>
>
> Hypotheticals are not good for discussion because just because
> something sounds as though it could happen doesn't mean it can
happen.
>
> The problem with hypotheticals is that they remove the why behind
the
> event and leave only the what.
>
> *Why* would a child be uninterested in what state they live in?
How
> could that happen? How could it be that the state the child lives
in
> never come up in conversation, and the child never send a letter
> anywhere, never be asked where they live ...?
>
> > or never had any desire to study grammar
>
> Does someone need to study grammar to know grammar?
>
> The foundation of unschooling is that we learn how the world words
> without someone telling us. We see stuff, we come up with theories
on
> how it works, we test the theories, we revise the theories. It's
how
> we're hardwired to learn.
>
> School interferes with that natural process.
>
> Think about the difference between how your kids learned to speak
> English and how kids "learn" Spanish in a class room. Which works
> naturally without us even realizing it? Which works, well, hardly
at
> all. The only word I remember from Spanish class that I don't hear
in
> real life is "la escritorio". (I think it's one of those weird
> masculine words that gets a feminine article which is why I
remember.
> But, then again, I could be totally wrong!)
>
> I guarantee that your kids know grammar. They aren't saying "Ball
me
> give red" are they?
>
> School puts some formal language onto it. They can learn the
formal
> language *way* faster the more real life grammar they absorb and
use.
>
> > do math past a
> > basic, elementary level?
>
> If they don't need it for their interests, do they need it?
>
> It's a serious question!
>
> It's *so* hard to see real math in life because schools have made
us
> think math is the formal "grammar" that they shove down people's
> throats. *Real* math is learning how numbers work. Once a child
> grasps how numbers work -- how numbers can be manipulate to give
the
> information you want to get from them -- then they can grasp the
> formal notation of addition, multiplication, percentages *much*
easier.
>
> They can't avoid manipulating numbers. Numbers are as much a part
of
> life as words are. Mathematical notation just helps people write
it
> down.
>
> Read:
>
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
>
> scroll down on the left to the math section. There's probably more
> about math scattered about too.
>
> > i'm not saying these aren't the most important, but to
> > simply allow kids to just 'do what they want'...shouldn't these
things
> > be important too?
>
> You're seeing the knowledge as separate from real life. (Basically
> because schools separate it from real life!)
>
> Did you worry that they didn't sit down and study English as
> toddlers? Did you worry that they wouldn't learn English because
life
> isn't full of spelling lists naturally encountered? Why didn't you
> worry? Is learning English different than learning other things?
Why
> do you believe so? What's given you that idea?
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

diana jenner

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Stacey <alabtu@...> wrote:

> and never really 'got interested' in..what state he/she
> lives in?
>




I just had a giggle here :) thanks! In my school experience, 5th grade was
the time for *study South Dakota* -- ah the torture!!!!! Fast forward more
than 25 years and guess what?? In 5th grade, they never told me that 1/2 our
state was a prehistoric ocean -- me and my kids discovered that together!
They never told me our State Bird was brought here by Chinese railroad
workers and is in no way indigenous to this continent -- you guessed it, me
and the kids figgered it out!! I could go on and on and on.... There are
amazing authors and poets and artists from our state that were never, ever
mentioned in my *school* experience that I have joyfully discovered in my
Life, with my children by my side or at least in close proximity (I may not
always talk to *them* directly, the most of our discoveries are together)
We've talked about state and local governments because we talk about things
that are important to us (and we frequented the same park as the campaign
rallies did & had a Congressman who was a less than stellar representation
of the people of SD, etc). Now we live in a whole new state and it's SO
exciting for us all to discover new topography, geography, animals, plants,
people, weather, politics, policies, attitudes.... how could we not want to
know about this amazing place we live?!?!

I'm a firm believer in "If you are interested, by default you become
INTERESTING"
I'm interested in tide pools (and can't remember a *single* thing I learned
in my force-fed marine life units from my South Dakota science classes!!) My
excitement is contagious :) Even if Hayden doesn't come over immediately,
because he's found something else interesting to him, the joy of my own
discovery has made everyone's day lovelier <3 I want to be a part of what
interests him, what brings him joy, what gives him that same rush of
passion... So I am sure to, at the least, support what he does, and at most,
be a part of it myself.

> or never had any desire to study grammar..
>



Did you know that Schoolhouse Rock is about Grammar? Honestly, as a kid, I
didn't know I was supposed to learn something ;) I thought it was just
catchy songs I liked to sing to myself and sometimes they came in handy on a
test! I've never put on our DVD *in order to* do anything except enjoy a
rare Happy Memory from my childhood Saturday mornings. Out of my love of
these diddies came a really easy way to explain how to play "Mad Libs" (and
besides, the Lolly, Lolly, Lolly song is like fresh fruit preserves on the
dry toast of explaining adverbs).
It helps to remember that adverbs existed long before someone began calling
them "adverbs" and putting them on their own branch of a sentence diagram
tree. They did the same thing and followed the same kind of rules without
having to have the special title given to them :)

> do math past a basic, elementary level?
>



How? The same as the above adverb example, the same is true with numbers and
their manipulation. Before someone came up with the clever word "addition"
folks had been "putting things together" for centuries. Things added up and
subtracted down without "school approved" vocabulary.
That said, exposure to Life -- income discussions, bills being paid,
discussions about budgeting, shopping, figuring tax and discounts (not to
mention rounds and rounds of Monopoly Jr and the like)... all happen *with*
my kid(s), not separate from them, I just can't fathom how anyone could
*miss* this kind of information...

> shouldn't these things
> be important too?
>




They're *very* important!! To have fluency in your native language is
important -- it comes from using it! To have fluency in how to manipulate
numbers (money, peas, gas mileage, WoW finances ::bg::) -- comes from using
them!!

> i'm on the boat, let them guide their education..within a certain frame
>
It'll be a much better boat ride if you take your foot off the shore :)
It's kind of a "you're either pregnant or you're not" kind of proposition
for me, there's no "kinda pregnant" just like there's no "kinda trust" with
unschooling.



--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Stacey <alabtu@...> wrote:

> i guess what i was trying to say on grammar is 'just speaking',
> doesn't necessarily mean your child 'understands' grammar. my kids
> use nouns/verbs/adjectives on a daily basis. they use fragmented
> sentences...there's a huge line of them,
> .
>
>
>
You're kids are *really* young for you to be paranoid about college.
I say this from real life experience. You have NO idea if your kids will
even want to go that route, nor whether they'll survive long enough to tread
those waters. One could start a business at age 8 and be independently
wealthy by 12!! The bottom line is No One Knows.

I have *NO* regrets about my DD dying without knowing how to write a
sentence diagram. NONE.

One of my favorite quotes (oy! I've got too many!!) "If you've got one foot
in tomorrow and the other in yesterday, you're pi$$ing all over today."
College worries are not worth missing out on your Right Here, Right Now, I
promise. <3
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey

but i'm afraid to take my foot off the shore:(
thanx! that was very helpful..i'm getting it;)
stacey:)
>
> On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Stacey <alabtu@...> wrote:
>
> > and never really 'got interested' in..what state he/she
> > lives in?
> >
>
>
>
>
> I just had a giggle here :) thanks! In my school experience, 5th
grade was
> the time for *study South Dakota* -- ah the torture!!!!! Fast
forward more
> than 25 years and guess what?? In 5th grade, they never told me
that 1/2 our
> state was a prehistoric ocean -- me and my kids discovered that
together!
> They never told me our State Bird was brought here by Chinese
railroad
> workers and is in no way indigenous to this continent -- you
guessed it, me
> and the kids figgered it out!! I could go on and on and on....
There are
> amazing authors and poets and artists from our state that were
never, ever
> mentioned in my *school* experience that I have joyfully discovered
in my
> Life, with my children by my side or at least in close proximity (I
may not
> always talk to *them* directly, the most of our discoveries are
together)
> We've talked about state and local governments because we talk
about things
> that are important to us (and we frequented the same park as the
campaign
> rallies did & had a Congressman who was a less than stellar
representation
> of the people of SD, etc). Now we live in a whole new state and
it's SO
> exciting for us all to discover new topography, geography, animals,
plants,
> people, weather, politics, policies, attitudes.... how could we not
want to
> know about this amazing place we live?!?!
>
> I'm a firm believer in "If you are interested, by default you become
> INTERESTING"
> I'm interested in tide pools (and can't remember a *single* thing I
learned
> in my force-fed marine life units from my South Dakota science
classes!!) My
> excitement is contagious :) Even if Hayden doesn't come over
immediately,
> because he's found something else interesting to him, the joy of my
own
> discovery has made everyone's day lovelier <3 I want to be a part
of what
> interests him, what brings him joy, what gives him that same rush of
> passion... So I am sure to, at the least, support what he does, and
at most,
> be a part of it myself.
>
> > or never had any desire to study grammar..
> >
>
>
>
> Did you know that Schoolhouse Rock is about Grammar? Honestly, as a
kid, I
> didn't know I was supposed to learn something ;) I thought it was
just
> catchy songs I liked to sing to myself and sometimes they came in
handy on a
> test! I've never put on our DVD *in order to* do anything except
enjoy a
> rare Happy Memory from my childhood Saturday mornings. Out of my
love of
> these diddies came a really easy way to explain how to play "Mad
Libs" (and
> besides, the Lolly, Lolly, Lolly song is like fresh fruit preserves
on the
> dry toast of explaining adverbs).
> It helps to remember that adverbs existed long before someone began
calling
> them "adverbs" and putting them on their own branch of a sentence
diagram
> tree. They did the same thing and followed the same kind of rules
without
> having to have the special title given to them :)
>
> > do math past a basic, elementary level?
> >
>
>
>
> How? The same as the above adverb example, the same is true with
numbers and
> their manipulation. Before someone came up with the clever
word "addition"
> folks had been "putting things together" for centuries. Things
added up and
> subtracted down without "school approved" vocabulary.
> That said, exposure to Life -- income discussions, bills being paid,
> discussions about budgeting, shopping, figuring tax and discounts
(not to
> mention rounds and rounds of Monopoly Jr and the like)... all
happen *with*
> my kid(s), not separate from them, I just can't fathom how anyone
could
> *miss* this kind of information...
>
> > shouldn't these things
> > be important too?
> >
>
>
>
>
> They're *very* important!! To have fluency in your native language
is
> important -- it comes from using it! To have fluency in how to
manipulate
> numbers (money, peas, gas mileage, WoW finances ::bg::) -- comes
from using
> them!!
>
> > i'm on the boat, let them guide their education..within a certain
frame
> >
> It'll be a much better boat ride if you take your foot off the
shore :)
> It's kind of a "you're either pregnant or you're not" kind of
proposition
> for me, there's no "kinda pregnant" just like there's no "kinda
trust" with
> unschooling.
>
>
>
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

diana jenner

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Stacey <alabtu@...> wrote:

> but i'm afraid to take my foot off the shore:(
> thanx! that was very helpful..i'm getting it;).
>
>
>


I used to have a BIG tool named "Fear"... one day, we had a little meeting
:) I invited Fear to tea and we had a lovely chat about Fear's purpose in my
Life thus far. I thanked Fear for a "job well done" we shook hands and I
handed Fear a pink slip, saying I no longer needed Fear's services.
Sometimes Fear comes 'round to check on my needs, to see if there's any
purpose left, I happily report that "no, still no need for Fear here" and
off it goes! :D
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey

i read your site (signature blog on hannah) :( made me want to cry!!
talk about eye-opening! time to refocus here...thank you:)
stacey


> >
> You're kids are *really* young for you to be paranoid about college.
> I say this from real life experience. You have NO idea if your kids
will
> even want to go that route, nor whether they'll survive long enough
to tread
> those waters. One could start a business at age 8 and be
independently
> wealthy by 12!! The bottom line is No One Knows.
>
> I have *NO* regrets about my DD dying without knowing how to write a
> sentence diagram. NONE.
>
> One of my favorite quotes (oy! I've got too many!!) "If you've got
one foot
> in tomorrow and the other in yesterday, you're pi$$ing all over
today."
> College worries are not worth missing out on your Right Here, Right
Now, I
> promise. <3
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Jackson

I really appreciate your reply to this, Joyce. I'm saving it to share
w my husband/other relatives if the need arises.
Liz

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 16, 2008, at 6:32 PM, Stacey wrote:

> i guess what i was trying to say on grammar is 'just speaking',
> doesn't necessarily mean your child 'understands' grammar.

No, I didn't misunderstand at all. I'm saying "Yes, it does."

What you're asking about is the formal language. The names for the
parts of speech.

When a child has been using English for 16 years it takes 5 minutes
to get across the concepts of nouns, verbs and so on when they *want*
to take the SAT. It will be information acquired for a purpose that's
important to them.

If you start teaching early before they have the ability to
intellectually grasp the abstract concepts, it takes years because 1)
they don't care and 2) they care even less because someone's making
them listen to information about something they have no interest in
learning.

But before 16, as part of their rich unschooling lives, you should
have stumbled across Mad Libs and had fun times with them.

So reread what I wrote with that in mind.

When they were 2 and said "Mama, up," did you worry that they weren't
speaking in full sentences? Why? Why didn't you project that behavior
onto their future 16 yo selves? Why did you think that just by living
life that their sentences would flesh out and become more complex if
someone didn't make them? Why would they ever use a dozen words if 2
got the meaning across? Because you'd seen it happen?

Why do you worry that their right now selves are who they will be in
10+ years unless you make them be something different than what they
are? Why do you think they're incapable of learning about the world?
Because you only know institutionalized kids? You only know kids
who've had information they don't care about crammed into them for
years and years?

We've seen kids absorb what state they live in, learn what a noun is
in order to play MadLibs, figure out percentages and charts and
graphs and memorize complex 3D maps and strategize ways past an
obstacle in order to play video games (by using math that's much more
complex and real that is taught in school). *Your* part is to give
them rich lives so they aren't locked away from a world where they
would naturally pick up what state they live in! And pick up that
Shakespeare existed. But don't focus on where you want them to go
(Shakespeare). Focus on what's fun for them and the world will be in
there.

Can unschooled kids sit down and ace the SAT on the first try? It
wouldn't be reasonable to expect them to. But they've absorbed the
foundation of knowledge they need by *using* what kids in school have
only been cramming into their heads with memorization. They lack the
formal language to manipulate it but understanding is the truly
profound part of knowledge. The formal language can be learned easily.

What unschooled kids learn is how to learn. They learn how *they*
learn. They don't absorb the idea as schooled kids do that they must
be taught by an expert with a textbook and homework.

They can also learn that a lot of colleges are moving away from SATs
(and even more by the time your kids are ready for college) and
deliberately choose a school that doesn't use them. They can take
college classes in high school *for fun* at community colleges. They
can work and volunteer and apprentice in the fields that interest
them. They can actually be *doing* what they plan to get paid for
before they go to college (or get a job). That looks *way* better to
colleges than some kid who's been trained to fill in the right dot on
a piece of paper. Colleges like older students (and don't require
SATs from them!) who have been out in life doing what they want to
do, exploring. The colleges know they're already capable of doing the
work that they'll learn in college. They'll know that they're
enthusiastic about the major because they've already been involved in
it. As opposed to high school kids who've been kept locked away from
the world for 12+ years memorizing at textbooks and jumping through
hoops they're told to jump through so they can jump through more
hoops to do what maybe might interest them.

> also, another question came to mind. how do unschooled kids get
> into college? if they have no transcripts..i mean, they weren't
> taking any classes..were they?
>
As Kelly asked recently, why would you want your kids to look like
every other applicant to college? If they've been living interesting
lives exploring the subject they plan to pursue in college, why would
you want their application to look like they'd spent their years
sitting in classrooms with textbooks?

We've so bought into the educational system that we believe that it's
the ultimate achievement in learning. Baloney. It's just all that
colleges have to work with. They have 1000s of applications that all
look *exactly* the same. They have all these applicants who've been
jumping through hoops for 12 years being told they need for more
years of hoops in order to achieve the American Dream. Colleges know
that the majority of those kids are clueless about life. But that's
all they get.

Except for the older applicants who've been out in life doing what
they want to learn more about. Except for the unschooled kids who
were out living life and exploring what interests them. Harvard
*likes* unschooled kids :-) They stand out from the 1600 SATs and
Aced AP classes. They've been out doing. They, more than schooled
kids, are applying to Harvard because they want what they'll learn at
Harvard, not because they want a piece of paper that says Harvard on it.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~..there's a huge line of them, waiting for them on the
SAT/ACT when they graduate. but do they 'know' them?~~

The SAT/ACT may never be their reality. You're borrowing trouble from
a future that may never happen. If they have some reason or need for
that, you can study for the SAT/ACT exams a few months and be ready
(or even less time)!
Most people that learned this stuff in school can't remember a bit of
it. If we need the info. we find it out WHEN and IF we need it. Only
if something is important to the learner will it be truly learned.

So if you think they need to learn it, just because of some potential
in the future for needing it, that's not a good reason in my book. If
they're interested in understanding it at some point, THEN you can
help them find the information.


Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

I'll go back and give a reply to the OP, but I wanted to respond to
some of what Joyce wrote too.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>


Hypotheticals are not good for discussion because just because
something sounds as though it could happen doesn't mean it can happen.

The problem with hypotheticals is that they remove the why behind the
event and leave only the what.

-=-=-=-=-

Right. Do you KNOW of a child who is mid-teens who doesn't know where
he lives? Tell us about him.

-=-=-=-==-

*Why* would a child be uninterested in what state they live in? How
could that happen? How could it be that the state the child lives in
never come up in conversation, and the child never send a letter
anywhere, never be asked where they live ...?

-=-=-=-=-

The only reason I could think of is that the parents were not
interested and chose to keep all state info top secret! <G>

The boys and I spend lots of time traveling our state just looking
something else to discover. South Carolina has a RICH history! We like
to look at/for it!

--=-=-==-

>>> or never had any desire to study grammar<<<


School puts some formal language onto it. They can learn the formal
language *way* faster the more real life grammar they absorb and use.

-=-=-=-=-=-

The BEST way to help your children grasp grammar is to USE proper
grammar!!!

I'm a grammar nazi---it's important to me that my boys don't
sound...um....South Carolinian (to get back to the state reference
<g>). I want them to understand how to use adverbs and when to use the
objective case. I HATE to hear the "to him and I" that's sooo common in
vernacular. It just sends me reeling!

So I do my little freak-out when a news anchor says something so
blatantly wrong. Worse is when I find it PUBLISHED somewhere---I just
want to scream, "Where was the editor???" I'm not shy in pointing out a
better way to say something. I'm happy to edit their
letters/notes/articles/etc.---IF they ask. If they ask "why"
such-and-such is wrong, I can tell them: you use that "'s" because
English uses a "possessive before the gerund."

If it is important to YOU that your children learn grammar, then YOU
learn grammar and be able to answer their questions about language
usage. Don't use bad grammar in front of them. Make every effort to
understand how language works and share what you know.

It's NO different than any other thing. If it were important to me that
my boys understand about car engines, I would need to either KNOW about
car engines or find someone who does. Car engines and their care would
be high on my list of things that we'd talk about. (They're NOT, in my
family---we have a good mechanic, so I doubt my sons will ever be
immersed in that particular world. And that's fine---but *some* people
would think I'm doing my boys a huge disservice to not expose them to
auto care and maintenance. A lot more people feel the same way about
grammar. <g>)

I have a friend whose mother never allowed her in the kitchen---no
joke. Not even for a glass of water. We had to ask *her*, and she would
bring it to us. Her mother wonders now why Caroline doesn't cook.
Luckily she married a man who adores being in the kitchen. Exposure,
exposure, exposure!

My point <g> is that if our children are surrounded by things, they
will learn them---naturally and (relatively) painlessly. <g> If you
choose to use good grammar, the example you're setting is that grammar
is important. Plus---what we *hear* becomes natural to our ears.

You don't need to diagram a sentence to understand grammar. (I have
never diagramed a sentence; that became popular, I guess, just after my
school days. My brother had to though.)

There are a lot of good books on understanding grammar so that *YOU*
can become more familiar with how and why. _Eats, Shoots and Leaves_ is
very popular. _A Grammar Book for You and I (Oops ME!): All the Grammar
You Need to Know to Succeed in Life_. _The Elements of Style_ is good,
but dry. I'm interested in getting _Grammar Snobs are Great BIG
Meanies_. <G>

By imposing it as a separate thing---like a school subject---you're
making it almost inaccessible.. Better to make it a part of everyday
conversation (so to speak <g>) They learn it because they USE it. And
they learn it better if it's modeled better *for* them.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], "diana jenner"
<hahamommy@...> wrote:

> One of my favorite quotes (oy! I've got too many!!) "If you've got
one foot
> in tomorrow and the other in yesterday, you're pi$$ing all over
today."



Which reminds me of General Patton keeping his promise to "pi$$ (lol)
in the Rhine" during WW2. I guarantee I didn't learn *that* in school.
<g>

; )
Ria

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Stacey <alabtu@...>

my question is this: let the kids do what they want (i come from a
radical unschooling group) and follow their own interests. which is
good, in a way. but what happens if you have a child that goes through
high school, and never really 'got interested' in..what state he/she
lives in?

-=-=-=-=-

Do you know a child like this?

-==-=-=-==-

or never had any desire to study grammar..do math past a
basic, elementary level?

-=-=-=-=-

Why would someone choose to study grammar? Because she wants to? that's
a REALLY good reason.

Why would somebody choose to study math past a basic elementary level?
Because she wants to? That's a really good reason.

Why would somebody choose NOT to study grammar or math? Because there
are sooo many other really interesting things to *study*.

Can someone grow up in a grammar-rich and math-rich world and not come
away with a good foundation in grammar and math?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

i know there are different learning
experences too, i'm not saying these aren't the most important, but to
simply allow kids to just 'do what they want'...shouldn't these things
be important too?

-=-=-=-=-

What is important to the learner WILL be important to the learner---and
will be learned.

Who gets to decide what's important and what's not? William Bennett? <g>

-===-=-=-

i'm on the boat, let them guide their education..within a certain frame
to ensure they do get their grammar/math in their too. i don't know. if
i could just get this questions answered, i would really appreciate
it.

-=-=-=-=-

I don't know that you're "on the boat." I think you may have the cruise
brochure in you back pocket though. <g>

Do have more specific questions?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Stacey <alabtu@...>


i guess what i was trying to say on grammar is 'just speaking',
doesn't necessarily mean your child 'understands' grammar.

-=-=--=-=-

Humans acquire language by listening to other humans speak. They learn
about sentence structure from hearing it and reading it. That IS how we
show understanding of a language. You can tell a foreign speaker often
by how he constructs sentences. Yoda is a German. <g>

-=-=-=-==-

my kids use nouns/verbs/adjectives on a daily basis.

-=-=-=--=

Good.

-=-=-=-=-

they use fragmented sentences...

-=-=-=-=-=-

Do they use capital letters and proper punctuation?

If you write notes to them (when they're old enough to read), it would
help them to see proper grammar and punctuation. It would help, when
you speak to them, to use proper grammar and not fragmented sentences.

What are you doing to develop these skills yourself?

-=-=-=-=-=-

there's a huge line of them, waiting for them on the
SAT/ACT when they graduate.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Huh?

1) The truly educated never graduate.
2) SATs and ACTs may very well be a thing of the past by the time your
*tiny* children become old enough to even take them. Let's not worry
about things so insignificant.
3) If the SAT *becomes* a reality for them---AND they want to take it,
they can pick up a study guide called _How to Study for the SAT_ and
even take online practice tests.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

but do they 'know' them? if asked, they
would have no idea what i was talking about. they use them, but don't
know them.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Does a seven year old NEED to know grammar rules? It certainly helps if
he *hears* the English language spoken well. As he gets older, it will
help if he reads well-written books so that he can *see* sentence
structure. But I can think of NO reason a seven year old should study
grammar (unless he likes it!).

He will gather that info as he grows and learns. He will make
connections with each person he hears speak and each
book/article/website he reads. Eventually he'll make connections. If he
ever needs to actually learn more about grammar, he will look into it.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

diana jenner

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

> Yoda is a German. <g>
>
>
>
In my world, Yoda is speaking ASL -- he may be the only creature known to do
so :)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: diana jenner <hahamommy@...>

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

> Yoda is a German. <g>
>
>
>
In my world, Yoda is speaking ASL -- he may be the only creature known
to do
so :)
-- -=-=-=-=-=-

Yeah?

Next time I see you, I'll translate some German literally---word by
word. Let's see if that works! <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Adrean Clark

Didn't realize that, I ought to check it out. DS8 likes Lego Star Wars...

Adrean



On 3/18/08, diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> > Yoda is a German. <g>
> >
> >
> >
> In my world, Yoda is speaking ASL -- he may be the only creature known to do
> so :)
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

diana jenner

Love it, you will :)

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...> wrote:

> Didn't realize that, I ought to check it out. DS8 likes Lego Star
> Wars...
>
> Adrean
>
> On 3/18/08, diana jenner <hahamommy@... <hahamommy%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, <kbcdlovejo@...<kbcdlovejo%40aol.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Yoda is a German. <g>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > In my world, Yoda is speaking ASL -- he may be the only creature known
> to do
> > so :)
> .
>
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], "Stacey" <alabtu@...> wrote:
>
> i guess what i was trying to say on grammar is 'just speaking',
> doesn't necessarily mean your child 'understands' grammar. my kids
> use nouns/verbs/adjectives on a daily basis. they use fragmented
> sentences...there's a huge line of them, waiting for them on the
> SAT/ACT when they graduate. but do they 'know' them? if asked, they
> would have no idea what i was talking about. they use them, but don't

How about mad libs? I think we learned most of our grammar from
playing madlibs, and maybe from watching schoolhouse rock.Randy and I
got schoolhouse rock for ourselves,but the kids like it too!
BTW, when I was in school, I was always in the gifted and talented
classes for LA,because I could read well, write stories and poetry,
but I could never make outlines properly, and it wasn't until I was
about 30 that I understood what a predicate was. The more they read and
see proper sentences the better they will understand sentence structure
and spelling.Instead of spelling lessons, how about finding lots of
books on subjects they really like? We go to the library a lot!
Knowing the words for what the parts of the sentences are called is
like knowing what addends, subtrahends,minuends, multipliers and
multiplicands all are. I can do subtraction without ever knowing which
number is the subtrahend and which is the minuend.
Do you know that your child will definitely be taking the SAT? What
if they do the CLEP instead? What if they go to art school and need a
portfolio instead? Do you have to prepare now for the SAT later?
Who knows what they might pick up between now and then?
-Kelly

Andrew and Cecily Paterson

I've got an 8yo just about to come out of school for an 'unschooling trial'.
She loves her two little brothers (2 and 4), but gets sick of them,
especially the 4 year old who is autistic and who tends to yell a lot and
talk about Thomas the Tank Engine ad infinitum.



I'm a bit concerned that our unschooling adventure could get derailed
because she just won't be able to spend that much time with her brother
happily and would prefer to be out of the house with friends who are more
like herself.



Any tips for how to keep them living happily together, while giving each one
what they need and want?



Thanks, cecily



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 25, 2008, at 1:27 AM, Andrew and Cecily Paterson wrote:

> she just won't be able to spend that much time with her brother
> happily and would prefer to be out of the house with friends who are
> more
> like herself.
>
> Any tips for how to keep them living happily together, while giving
> each one
> what they need and want?

Spend lots of time out of the house with friends.

An easy way to do that is to arrange several regular ((every week)
park get-togethers (or an indoor space if you can't do outdoors all
year).

Also, invite her friends over a lot to play with her while you occupy
her brothers.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]