Karen Swanay

OK...kid #3 Morgan 3.5 yrs old, home 10 weeks. Mostly she's OK with
the pets now. But every now and again....

I was standing there with her and in the blink of an eye she ran over
and kicked my 13lb Dachsund in the throat. I *LOST* it. I can handle
her breaking things, or throwing tantrums (which she really doesn't do
she just lets me know she's frustrated.) But my pets...I just can't
handle animal abuse. And yeah I know she doesn't understand the
concept of abuse. But in the moment...what should I do? Because I
just yelled at her very loudly. I was so mad. My husband just took
her for a walk and I vacuumed the house which helps calm me down.

I know I blew it. I need some tool to help me with the pets. This is
the one thing I can't just giggle about and say "Oh well! She'll
learn!" And NO I'm not rehoming my pets. That's a no go option. I'm
not asking for how to keep her from doing this, because it's pretty
infrequent and I know as she gains more understanding it will stop.
What I'm asking for is what do *I* do in the moment, what's the
override button? My pets are as important to me as she is. I take
pet ownership seriously. So this is like my other big
conundrum...when the boys are fighting and they are hurting each other
either physically or verbally. I feel like so much of this
unschooling stuff would be seamless with just one kid but, I stumble
over these kinds of conflicts and I SO blew it just now.

Karen *feeling like a bad person but would like no one to tell me I'm
a bad person I feel bad enough about this already.*

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/15/2008 4:00:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
luvbullbreeds@... writes:

Karen *feeling like a bad person but would like no one to tell me I'm
a bad person I feel bad enough about this already.*


_____________

you're not! You reacted, you didn't respond. It's human.

How about, if this happens again, you go, calmly, pick up the dog, and talk
softly to the dog about how M didn't meant to hurt you and she's just
learning. Pet the dog, be loving, and show M how to do the same thing, while talking
softly to her too saying the same things....?

I know she's adjusting - I love reading your updates, Karen. I have a friend
that is trying to adopt a daughter from China and I always think of her when
I read your posts - and of you, when I read her's.

I don't know if that will help, but maybe it will.

Warmly,
Karen



**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:

>So this is like my other big
> conundrum...when the boys are fighting and they are hurting each other
> either physically or verbally. I feel like so much of this
> unschooling stuff would be seamless with just one kid but, I stumble
> over these kinds of conflicts and I SO blew it just now.

You're not alone! I have the same problem with my 2 older boys. It is
so hard because I love them both! It just blows my top when I see them
hurting each other.Most of the time they are best friends, but a couple
of times a year they have a major blowout.

I also need to know how others handle this type of thing.


-Kelly

Karen Buxcel

Karen,
I'll second what the other Karen said. ;)

In that moment, tend to your dog with as much love and compassion as you can
muster, let that emotion take the place of the rage that may be present.
Pour all of that attention into your hurt dog, and let her see that you
really care about the safety of every living thing in your house. And the
beauty is, you can do this without a single "you shouldn't have done that"
lecture. She'll see it and get it on a deeper level than words can convey.
And always follow it up with a hug for her, no words, just a hug or some
other loving gesture that sends the message that your love for her will not
change because of xyz. Maybe that's what she's testing? Hmmm, that thought
just popped into my head.

I do this with my children, too, by the way. If one of them hurts the
other, instead of being mean and icky to the one who did the hurting, I rush
over to the hurt child and wrap my arms around him. Both (sometimes all 3!)
children are usually within pretty close proximity, so I'll wrap my arms
around the other(s), as well. Love heals.

Oh, and remember to BREATHE! Especially in that moment of feeling like
you're about to lose it! Breathing always, always, always helps!

Karen
in SD


--
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know
peace."
Jimi Hendrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 15, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> But my pets...I just can't
> handle animal abuse. And yeah I know she doesn't understand the
> concept of abuse. But in the moment...what should I do? Because I
> just yelled at her very loudly. I was so mad. My husband just took
> her for a walk and I vacuumed the house which helps calm me down.

Well, it happens and we look at what happened and try to figure out a
way to set up our world so it won't happen again. If you don't learn
from it, that is real failure. If you learn from it - it is a minor
screwup.

So - pets and Morgan might not be a good mix for a lot of years.
Speaking from experience with a child with serious attachment issues
(abused and fostered, etc), she really did not have empathy even for
humans, and pretty much none for animals. So she could be a risk to
the animals for a lot of years to come.

I, personally, would not HAVE animals and bring in a little child with
the background yours has. I know you love your pets, and to tell you
to give them away so they can live in a safer home probably seems like
overreaction to you, but, that's my honest answer and ESPECIALLY if
her being rough with them is going to be a trigger for you to snap.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> I, personally, would not HAVE animals and bring in a little child with
> the background yours has. I know you love your pets, and to tell you
> to give them away so they can live in a safer home probably seems like
> overreaction to you, but, that's my honest answer and ESPECIALLY if
> her being rough with them is going to be a trigger for you to snap.
>
> -pam
********************************************************************************

Well, it is not that simple to find good homes so rehoming isn't just
a matter of "free to a good home" but additionally, I have other
children who love these animals. How does it respect them to say "OK
so we are bringing in this kid, so we have to ship out your pets."
And if we should be considerate of all members of the household, how
do I (were I so inclined to do so) respect my other children while
ripping their hearts out? How can I say to them "Because of Morgan
this is what we have to do." without engendering dislike and
resentment for the new child? I don't see how that will lead to my
boys feeling good at all. And I don't think that's black and white
thinking. I think knowing my kids and how they feel, this would be
incredibly destructive to our relationship...not to mention sending
the message that "If an animal is inconvenient, just dump it, they are
things not beings." AND Yeager is my service dog, I can not be
without him. Well I could, but my life and ability to be independent
would be severely limited.

But the question wasn't about pet/kid control that I can do. The
question was, when there is a trigger that you can't eliminate, how do
*you* *me* *anyone* IN THE MOMENT deal with that? What's the better
way? Because as I said, the other trigger is my boys fighting. I
can't get rid of one kid to bring peace. So simply removing the
source of the problem is not always the answer. I feel as though the
answer to being more gentle will come from within me. I'm sure there
are others of you that had to learn different patterns for behavior
you couldn't control in others. What are your recommendations for
those situations?

Karen

Pamela Sorooshian

I haven't read the rest yet, Karen, but I will in a minute. Before I
do, I wanted to respond to the tone of this part.

Do you really think I recommended what you said here? Would I say to
my kids, "Ok, so we're bringing in this kid, so we have to ship out
your pets?"

It'll help you a lot in these conversations if you slow down and think
more about what you're reading. You've read quite a bit of what I've
said here, to you and others. Is this in line with other things you've
read? Remember, I have NOTHING to gain here - I'm only here to be
helpful. Don't resist; think about the sentiments, the underlying
principles, the reasoning behind what we're offering to you.

We can't exactly and specifically solve your problems for you. We can
give you our ideas, we can analyze what you tell us. That gives you a
variety of ideas, but the solutions are going to have to come from
you, not from us.

You chose to adopt Morgan. Did you just say, "So we're bringing in
this kid?" Did you AND your other kids make this decision together?
Did they understand that they would be making sacrifices because of
it? I do know a family that says, "This is NONE of my kids' business,
they have nothing to say about us adopting more children." Their
argument was that kids don't have anything to say about it if their
mother gets pregnant, and adoption should be like that. If you chose
that route, then I guess, yeah, it is just a logical extension to say,
"...so we have to ship out your pets."

I wouldn't recommend handling any of it that way from the adoption to
how to deal with problems with pets.

Surely, upon second thought, you realize that is not what I was
saying, right? So maybe read what I wrote again, but with the question
in your mind of, "How can these ideas be translated into something
workable in my life?" Don't close your mind to them - don't build up
your defenses because someone says something you didn't want to hear.
As soon as someone starts saying, "That won't work because...." and
then listing all the reasons it won't work, I'm usually pretty sure
they really know that there is something to it, but they don't want to
admit it even to themselves.


-pam

On Mar 16, 2008, at 11:08 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> Well, it is not that simple to find good homes so rehoming isn't just
> a matter of "free to a good home" but additionally, I have other
> children who love these animals. How does it respect them to say "OK
> so we are bringing in this kid, so we have to ship out your pets."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 16, 2008, at 11:08 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> But the question wasn't about pet/kid control that I can do. The
> question was, when there is a trigger that you can't eliminate, how do
> *you* *me* *anyone* IN THE MOMENT deal with that?

You already know yourself and we don't know you at all. You're the one
who knows what it takes to keep you calmer and less prone to an
outburst of temper. All we can offer are the usual - breathe, count to
10, look into her eyes before you react, focus on caring for the one
who has been hurt. You already know all that stuff, though, so I don't
believe that is what you were asking for, was it?

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> Surely, upon second thought, you realize that is not what I was
> saying, right? So maybe read what I wrote again, but with the question
> in your mind of, "How can these ideas be translated into something
> workable in my life?" Don't close your mind to them - don't build up
> your defenses because someone says something you didn't want to hear.
> As soon as someone starts saying, "That won't work because...." and
> then listing all the reasons it won't work, I'm usually pretty sure
> they really know that there is something to it, but they don't want to
> admit it even to themselves.
>
> -pam
**********************************************************************

I did reread what you wrote and you acknowledge that I wouldn't think
giving my pets away would be a good idea but that is the idea you have
to offer. I know not everyone will be able to offer advice that will
work in every situation. I understand that. But I did say rehoming
was a no-go. I'm having trouble with my husband but I wouldn't kick
him out. The boys fight, but I wouldn't get rid of one of them. My
commitment to my pets is as strong as my commitment to my husband and
children. They are not less than. I know not everyone feels that
way...I work in rescue and have worked with animals for two decades.
I know how easily people toss animals when they become a pain or less
than cute etc. (I'm not saying you feel that way.) My level of
commitment to my animals is very very high and I hope my kids grow up
to feel the same way. Animals are not disposable. Not in my house.

As to the adoption yes, we did talk to the boys about it but there
isn't any way that it was a fair discussion. How would a child even
grasp how life would change? They can't really. But they knew about
the adoption and we talked and talked about it and they discussed it
with others and us too. For 2 years. But at no point did I ever
entertain that my animals would have to go because I was bringing a
new child into the house. It's simply not going to happen. I know
it's not unschooly and likely ruffling feathers but in this case the
child MUST change. This is no different in my mind than if she was
hurting the boys. I wouldn't get rid of them. Life would have to go
on and the attacker would have to stop being violent. That's just the
way it would have to be. And that's the way it is.

HOWEVER...this happened because she's 3. Not because she's adopted.
And she will grow out of it/through it. She is already lots better
than she was 8 weeks ago. She enjoys Otis and they play together a
lot. Yeager and she are buddies. It will get better.

RE: my reaction, I'm still moving from a place of "do it wrong and
you'll get punished" to one where there is no punishment. My default
reaction is punishment. I was hoping there would be perhaps a short
cut to changing the default reaction but I see that isn't possible.
It's going to take some time and I will mess up. The important thing
is that I recognized I made a mistake, and am committed to not letting
it happen again. And I realize that my posting here is to own my
mistake and keep myself accountable to a group of people who are all
parenting like I *want* to parent. It would be very easy to be here
on this list and read and post and do whatever I wanted to with the
kids. But I really do want to change and have Morgan grow up in a
calm environment and I want my boys to be more at peace.

And even though I will not rehome my pets, I do appreciate the time
you took to answer my query. Even when the idea isn't one I can use,
I still learn.

Karen

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> The
> question was, when there is a trigger that you can't eliminate, how
do
> *you* *me* *anyone* IN THE MOMENT deal with that?
> Karen

I think being aware of your triggers and reactions is the first step
to changing. You can't expect to change overnight and all of a sudden
deal with every difficult situation perfectly. You can, however, take
each situation as it comes and try to consciously remind yourself of
how you want to be. It is ok to stop yourself in the middle of a snap.
If you find yourself reacting in a way that you don't like, you don't
have to follow it through to the end.

One thing I've done is ask my husband to say something to me if he
ever sees me about to lose it. This happened just the other day when
my 4 year old snapped me in the back of my neck with a measuring tape.
I had no idea he was behind me doing that and it shocked me. My
immediate reaction was to spin around ready to hit back without even
really realizing what had happened. All I knew was something hit me
and it hurt. My husband said my name very sharply and it stopped me in
my tracks. I was very thankful to him for that.

Alysia

wisdomalways5

I have an idea- you have to always be around her when she is around
the animal so you can protect the dog(?)- do not let her be near
them without supervision until she can be gentle-

same for the boys fighting- you need to be there before it gets out
of hand- before it is "fighting" you need to anticipate it will
happen and step in quickly

that way you will temper "your" reaction but not letting things get
to the point of YOU exploding

Julie


--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> > Surely, upon second thought, you realize that is not what I was
> > saying, right? So maybe read what I wrote again, but with the
question
> > in your mind of, "How can these ideas be translated into
something
> > workable in my life?" Don't close your mind to them - don't
build up
> > your defenses because someone says something you didn't want to
hear.
> > As soon as someone starts saying, "That won't work because...."
and
> > then listing all the reasons it won't work, I'm usually pretty
sure
> > they really know that there is something to it, but they don't
want to
> > admit it even to themselves.
> >
> > -pam
>
*********************************************************************
*
>
> I did reread what you wrote and you acknowledge that I wouldn't
think
> giving my pets away would be a good idea but that is the idea you
have
> to offer. I know not everyone will be able to offer advice that
will
> work in every situation. I understand that. But I did say
rehoming
> was a no-go. I'm having trouble with my husband but I wouldn't
kick
> him out. The boys fight, but I wouldn't get rid of one of them.
My
> commitment to my pets is as strong as my commitment to my husband
and
> children. They are not less than. I know not everyone feels that
> way...I work in rescue and have worked with animals for two
decades.
> I know how easily people toss animals when they become a pain or
less
> than cute etc. (I'm not saying you feel that way.) My level of
> commitment to my animals is very very high and I hope my kids grow
up
> to feel the same way. Animals are not disposable. Not in my
house.
>
> As to the adoption yes, we did talk to the boys about it but there
> isn't any way that it was a fair discussion. How would a child
even
> grasp how life would change? They can't really. But they knew
about
> the adoption and we talked and talked about it and they discussed
it
> with others and us too. For 2 years. But at no point did I ever
> entertain that my animals would have to go because I was bringing a
> new child into the house. It's simply not going to happen. I know
> it's not unschooly and likely ruffling feathers but in this case
the
> child MUST change. This is no different in my mind than if she was
> hurting the boys. I wouldn't get rid of them. Life would have to
go
> on and the attacker would have to stop being violent. That's just
the
> way it would have to be. And that's the way it is.
>
> HOWEVER...this happened because she's 3. Not because she's
adopted.
> And she will grow out of it/through it. She is already lots better
> than she was 8 weeks ago. She enjoys Otis and they play together a
> lot. Yeager and she are buddies. It will get better.
>
> RE: my reaction, I'm still moving from a place of "do it wrong and
> you'll get punished" to one where there is no punishment. My
default
> reaction is punishment. I was hoping there would be perhaps a
short
> cut to changing the default reaction but I see that isn't possible.
> It's going to take some time and I will mess up. The important
thing
> is that I recognized I made a mistake, and am committed to not
letting
> it happen again. And I realize that my posting here is to own my
> mistake and keep myself accountable to a group of people who are
all
> parenting like I *want* to parent. It would be very easy to be
here
> on this list and read and post and do whatever I wanted to with the
> kids. But I really do want to change and have Morgan grow up in a
> calm environment and I want my boys to be more at peace.
>
> And even though I will not rehome my pets, I do appreciate the time
> you took to answer my query. Even when the idea isn't one I can
use,
> I still learn.
>
> Karen
>

diana jenner

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
wrote:

> How does it respect them to say "OK
> so we are bringing in this kid, so we have to ship out your pets."
> And if we should be considerate of all members of the household, how
> do I (were I so inclined to do so) respect my other children while
> ripping their hearts out? How can I say to them "Because of Morgan
> this is what we have to do." without engendering dislike and
> resentment for the new child?
>









What if she were horribly allergic (and you didn't find out until she
arrived)?? Would that situation be cause for presentation of the situation
without causing "hearts to be ripped out" or "dislike & resentment"??
Perhaps if you look at it like she's emotionally allergic or developmentally
allergic you could see this recommendation as less threatening. It's
certainly not her *fault* any more than if the doggy gave her hives.

__but in this case the child MUST change,_._,___
>

G-d grant me the Serenity to accept *those I cannot change,*
the Courage to *change the ONE I can,*
and the Wisdom to *know it's me**. *

--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

I forgot to mention something about your boys fighting. I'm currently
reading, Siblings Without Rivalry, almost at the end. I think it's a
good, easy to read, easy to understand book on respectful ways of
handling sibling fighting and hurting each other without having to
constantly surpervise or referee.

Alysia

Karen Swanay

I have heard of this book several times but I haven't ever picked it
up. I will make it a priority. Thanks for the tip!
Karen

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 11:14 AM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:

> I forgot to mention something about your boys fighting. I'm currently
> reading, Siblings Without Rivalry, almost at the end. I think it's a
> good, easy to read, easy to understand book on respectful ways of
> handling sibling fighting and hurting each other without having to
> constantly surpervise or referee.
>
> Alysia

Karen Buxcel

Karen,
Have you talked to your other children about the danger that their pets are
in? About other options for the safety and care of said pets? Maybe they'd
have some ideas they'd love to share, if asked. Maybe one of *them* would
suggest "loaning" them out to a family close by until things were easier for
Morgan. Maybe you could find a family that would be willing to foster your
pets, you pay for the food and other expenses, and having visiting rights
whenever you'd like, or bring them to your home for occasional
weekend/overnight visits.

Maybe your other children would much rather help their pets out, for the
time being at least, than have the possibility of injury and all of the
other stress that comes from worrying about the pets safety.

Karen
in SD

--
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know
peace."
Jimi Hendrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>


I was standing there with her and in the blink of an eye she ran over
and kicked my 13lb Dachsund in the throat. I *LOST* it. I can handle
her breaking things, or throwing tantrums (which she really doesn't do
she just lets me know she's frustrated.) But my pets...I just can't
handle animal abuse. And yeah I know she doesn't understand the
concept of abuse. But in the moment...what should I do? Because I
just yelled at her very loudly. I was so mad. My husband just took
her for a walk and I vacuumed the house which helps calm me down.

I know I blew it. I need some tool to help me with the pets. This is
the one thing I can't just giggle about and say "Oh well! She'll
learn!" And NO I'm not rehoming my pets. That's a no go option. I'm
not asking for how to keep her from doing this, because it's pretty
infrequent and I know as she gains more understanding it will stop.
What I'm asking for is what do *I* do in the moment, what's the
override button? My pets are as important to me as she is. I take
pet ownership seriously. So this is like my other big
conundrum...when the boys are fighting and they are hurting each other
either physically or verbally. I feel like so much of this
unschooling stuff would be seamless with just one kid but, I stumble
over these kinds of conflicts and I SO blew it just now.

Karen *feeling like a bad person but would like no one to tell me I'm
a bad person I feel bad enough about this already.*

-=-=-=-=-

Frankly, I probably would have done the same thing.

Then I would have taken that breath---*after* the fact. <g>

Taking on a three year old is so completely different than starting as
an infant. There's a reason we naturally get them when they don't DO
much of anything: so we can grow WITH them to make changes that will
make life easier as we all grow. <G> Suddenly having a three year old
isn't easy! And a three year old with little to no empathy is even
tougher.

I would keep the animals separated from her for a while. Baby gates are
helpful. Only have the dogs with her when you are RIGHT there where you
can control the situation. She certainly shouldn't be left alone with
them unsupervised for a long, long while.

After a while, she'll learn *how* to treat the animals. The problem is
that she's had NO experience with animals. And the experience she's had
with humans has been spotty, at best. But she needs more time watching
*you* and your boys interact with the dogs.

Keep in mind that, although *we* consider it abuse, she was just seeing
what would happen if she kicked the dog. Had she been *born* to you,
she would have had months and months of seeing proper treatment of dogs
before she could ever even *walk*! I doubt it was malicious; it was
probably just an experiment! "What happens if I do THIS?"

In the big scheme of things, a little yelling will NOT scar her. It may
have made a huge impression though---especially of that's not the norm
around your house. When I yell now (NOT several years ago before
unschooling!), it's a damned big deal---and everyone knows I'm upset
and out of control---so they take it seriously. In a home where yelling
and hitting *are* normal, then yelling and hitting are ---just that:
Normal---and nothing to get upset about (that didn't some out quite
right, but it's not seen as OHMYGODMOMISOUTOFCONTROL!). I know a lot of
kids who just "tune out" the yelling. They don't even notice it.

I essentially HAVE one kid(s) (eight years apart), so I *can*
concentrate on one at a time. So I'm worthless in helping you figure
out what to do with multiples. <g> But I *do* know all about crates as
safe havens for dogs! The dogs should not be in range of a hitting
toddler. I just put mine up if I think a guest child will not be able
to restrain himself. I'm sure the dogs and cats appreciate it---even if
they don't know why. <BWG>

Don't look at this as the end of the world. Look at it as a
*learning-take* for both you and Morgan. She learned that you go
ballistic if she kicks the dog (that could be good OR bad, depending!).
You learned that she is interested in interacting with dogs---and not
always well. You learned not to leave her alone with (or at least
within kicking distance of) the dog. You learned that it freaks you out
more than you thought. *Knowing* that, you can make adjustments as they
come up again (and I'm sure they will! <G>)

Keep them separated unless you can be *right* there. The good thing is
that she will probably catch on sooner because she *is* older and she
sees gentleness modeled *for* her.

But don't beat yourself up. You've learned some good things! <G> Now
you can do better next time. Live and Learn, right?

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

shnunrizzo

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
Pam wrote:
> All we can offer are the usual - breathe, count to
> 10, look into her eyes before you react, focus on caring for the one
> who has been hurt. You already know all that stuff, though, so I
don't believe that is what you were asking for, was it?
>

Pam, this was a good succinct reminder - even though I know these
things too it helps to have them so briefly written that I can print it
and keep it handy.

Thanks
Shannon

Karen Swanay

Thanks Kelly.

She is doing so much better with the animals than she did 8 weeks ago
and much better than I had expected she would. And as far as the
yelling, well since she was abused, yelling means nothing to her
except that she *noticed* that her action caused an extreme reaction
from me. She didn't cry or anything. She wasn't even upset. If
you've been beat with a broom stick, yelling isn't that big of a deal
I guess. I was abhored at my reaction because I'm trying to do
better.

And she isn't ever left alone with the pets, for both of their safety.

Thanks again!
Karen

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:14 PM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
> Keep them separated unless you can be *right* there. The good thing is
> that she will probably catch on sooner because she *is* older and she
> sees gentleness modeled *for* her.
>
> But don't beat yourself up. You've learned some good things! <G> Now
> you can do better next time. Live and Learn, right?
>
> ~Kelly

shnunrizzo

Karen,

I wanted to chime in in support of what Kelly and Julie said: keep the
dog separated (via crate or baby gate) and always be right there when
she is around the dog.

Besides protecting the dog from a three-year old, you are protecting
her from the dog should it get pushed past its level of tolerance. Any
dog will bite when it can't flee (some sooner than others, but if it
feels danger and can't escape, it will eventually defend itself).
Imagine if the dog bit your three-year old, the decisions you would
then be faced with. So in essence you are also protecting the dog from
consequences that may arise through no fault of its own.

We had two dogs, one of which was a Weimaraner with aggressive
tendencies. We didn't know that when we rescued him from backyard
breeders, and when we had young kids, we had to keep him separated from
the kids. I worked with behaviorists and T-Touch therapists for years
and he became an outside dog to protect both dog and child. We found
he was happier outside; the noise and antics of the kids annoyed him.
I'm not saying you should put the dog outside, just that it's easy to
take a dog's gentleness for granted and I'd hate to see the dog put
into a situation in which it feels a need to defend itself.

Shannon

bhmjones

> I was standing there with her and in the blink of an eye she ran over
> and kicked my 13lb Dachsund in the throat. I can handle
> her breaking things, or throwing tantrums (which she really doesn't do
> she just lets me know she's frustrated.)

I know you stated that she does this out of frustration. I am curious
as to how you have surmised that she does this out of frustration?

Karen Swanay

No I'm saying the "tantrums" are expressions of frustration. Kicking
the dog is something she does to hear him scream which she thinks is
funny, like a squeaky toy or something. There is no malice in it.
She just acts...because she's 3. And she didn't grow up here and she
doesn't know it's not OK. The "tantrums" are her just rolling on the
floor and whining because she and I have communication problems. I've
made signs and such for her but as her knowledge base grows she will
want things I don't have representations for so it results in her and
I being frustrated for a time until she either figures out how to tell
me what she wants or I guess what it is. Most of the time, just
watching her is enough for me to read her and I know what she wants.
So they aren't frequent. She does really well, and hasn't had a full
blown melt down since home 4 days. So that's really good for any 3 yr
old!

Karen

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 9:19 PM, bhmjones <bhmjones@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > I was standing there with her and in the blink of an eye she ran over
> > and kicked my 13lb Dachsund in the throat. I can handle
>
> > her breaking things, or throwing tantrums (which she really doesn't do
> > she just lets me know she's frustrated.)
>
> I know you stated that she does this out of frustration. I am curious
> as to how you have surmised that she does this out of frustration?

brad jones

Has she made him scream more than once?



----- Original Message ----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:08:30 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Do you ever get really mad? aka I blew it.

No I'm saying the "tantrums" are expressions of frustration. Kicking
the dog is something she does to hear him scream which she thinks is
funny, like a squeaky toy or something. There is no malice in it.
She just acts...because she's 3. And she didn't grow up here and she
doesn't know it's not OK. The "tantrums" are her just rolling on the
floor and whining because she and I have communication problems. I've
made signs and such for her but as her knowledge base grows she will
want things I don't have representations for so it results in her and
I being frustrated for a time until she either figures out how to tell
me what she wants or I guess what it is. Most of the time, just
watching her is enough for me to read her and I know what she wants.
So they aren't frequent. She does really well, and hasn't had a full
blown melt down since home 4 days. So that's really good for any 3 yr
old!

Karen

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 9:19 PM, bhmjones <bhmjones@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > I was standing there with her and in the blink of an eye she ran over
> > and kicked my 13lb Dachsund in the throat. I can handle
>
> > her breaking things, or throwing tantrums (which she really doesn't do
> > she just lets me know she's frustrated.)
>
> I know you stated that she does this out of frustration. I am curious
> as to how you have surmised that she does this out of frustration?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

Yep, by pulling his ears. But I have to say she tries more often than
that but he's usually by me and so is she so I can intervene and
usually this is only an issue when she's really worked up playing.
It's done out of excitement. But the kick was unexpected. It was a
shift in her behavior so that's why I didn't catch it in time.

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 12:16 AM, brad jones <bhmjones@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Has she made him scream more than once?

brad jones

Ok, yes I see what you mean, my 11 month old son will pinch or pull my hair to see me squeal. I agree it is for experimentation and a perfect example of why I say humans are born uncivilized. In your original post you were asking how to handle yourself in this situation eh? I would say for you to convince yourself that this behaviour is natural and to expect it. It really sounds as if you do expect it but somehow got caught off guard when she shifted her behaviour to kicking. I sincerely believe my son would also be a biter in day care had I kept him there because he tries to bite us all the time. He also tries to capture the cats when he sees them, and yes he tries to pinch and pull their hair. The cats are able to handle themselves and I do not have to intervene at all, but if he could catch the dogs I'm sure I would have to intervene, but I am like you, I would not re-home my dogs nor even consider it, I would simply stay diligent in intervening that
way I'm never caught off guard thus not losing it. Now someone here has already told you that occasionally losing it will not cause harm, I agree because it is a natural result of being afflicted with emotions and your kids will understand.



----- Original Message ----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 7:32:31 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Do you ever get really mad? aka I blew it.

Yep, by pulling his ears. But I have to say she tries more often than
that but he's usually by me and so is she so I can intervene and
usually this is only an issue when she's really worked up playing.
It's done out of excitement. But the kick was unexpected. It was a
shift in her behavior so that's why I didn't catch it in time.

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 12:16 AM, brad jones <bhmjones@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Has she made him scream more than once?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 18, 2008, at 9:28 AM, brad jones wrote:

> a perfect example of why I say humans are born uncivilized

Our words can influence the way we see things and affect how we
react. Calling someone uncivilized is a negative term.

It helps our relationship with our kids to see them in positive
light. In this instance it can be seen that they're working on
acquiring cultural knowledge. (And probably several other positive
ways.)

Which brings up your previous discussion but puts it in an
unschooling context. My daughter was born with the desire to be
social. When she was an infant that social need was overwhelmed by
her basic needs. The fewer times I broke her trust that those basic
needs would be met (food, sleep, safety) the more energy she had left
over to meeting social needs.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs helps make that clearer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

When people feel secure that their basic needs are met, then they can
seek to meet higher order needs.

If I didn't trust that my daughter had an inherent need to be social,
then I would need to train her to be social. There was no fighting
against an inherent nature to make her be something she wasn't
already. But I did help her figure out ways to be social so that she
didn't push others away inadvertently while trying to meet her basic
needs. I helped her acquire cultural knowledge of how we can be with
others so they want to be with us while we seek to meet our own needs.

Joyce




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Matt & Jessica

I know this is old AND I have not read all of the responses, so I might be repeating things:).
My first thought is two parts:
1) Can the animals be put in a place that is safe for them, accessible to the other children, yet not a place your little girl will go? This might be completely impossible but it is a thought. I understand not being willing to give up your pets. I could not either. They are as much my babies as my child is:). I don't think it would be good for your other children, you, or your animals.
2)I think everyone loses control at some point. Some things are triggers for me too! When I have felt the loss of control I try to remember to breathe, count (to myself), and remember I am the MOM. I say that many times to myself also:) I mean mom as in the adult who has more of an ability to keep control of myself.
When I do lose control and blow up, we talk about it. I think it is good to show that you are human, you make mistakes, and yet you can say I am sorry and talk about it.
I really don't think we can stop ourselves completely from losing it at times. However we can reduce the amount of times it happens and figure out the best way to "fix" the aftermath of blowing up.

Jess


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