Maisha Khalfani

I don't know if this is for this list or not, but dh and I had a
not-so-peaceful discussion this morning.



He was angry with me from last night because Khalid was playing with our
dresser. He had opened up all of the drawers, and then the dresser started
to fall down on him. Dh and I grabbed the dresser and the drawers as they
spilled out. Dh hurt his knee. He blamed my "loose parenting" for his
pain.



This morning I tried to explain to him that I wasn't being a loose parent.
Had I known the dresser would fall I would have stopped Khalid. (just an
aside: after the dressers fell Khalid was very scared. I hugged him and
asked him if he was okay. He said yes, but he was more concerned about how
his father felt, and was worried about daddy being mad at him).



Okay...so I try to get my point across to dh about how I want to live
peacefully, how if I were to die tonight the dresser wouldn't be important,
how I want to live in joy and peace. He doesn't think that type of
thinking can work at all. He just doesn't see it. He even went so far as
to say that our marriage wouldn't work if I continued to parent this way.



I feel frustrated, but not angry. I'm surprised because I'm not
worried..but it is frustrating. Is there anyone else going through this? Is
it either "my way" or "his way"? Is there a compromise through this?



be at peace,

Maisha

Khalfani Family Adventures <http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>

EarthSpirit Journeys <http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Maisha Khalfani <maitai373@...>

Okay...so I try to get my point across to dh about how I want to live
peacefully, how if I were to die tonight the dresser wouldn't be
important,
how I want to live in joy and peace. He doesn't think that type of
thinking can work at all. He just doesn't see it. He even went so far
as
to say that our marriage wouldn't work if I continued to parent this
way.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Maisha,

I cannot say enough about Retrouvaille ( http://www.retrouvaille.org/
). It literally saved my marriage.

It's a Catholic church-based marriage "rescue" program (a huge goal of
the Catholic church!), but any denomination may attend (or NO
denomination, in my case---they even accept atheists! <g>). It was one
of the hardest weekends of my life. In fact, it may have been THE
hardest weekend. But it started me and Ben on the road to healing an
almost broken marriage by opening up communication and understanding
each other's points of view. We had essentially given up, and neither
of us had much hope for our marriage. It was POWERFUL!

I don't think y'all are communicating well---and even if you are, I
think you are coming from complete opposite ends of the playing field
and can find no common ground.

It's a SERIOUS weekend devoted to healing your marriage. It's not a
guarantee, but I *know* it can help.

Retrouvaille is free (although donations are graciously accepted) at a
hotel---no children, no cell phones, no outside communication allowed.
They feed you and everything. It's *all* about you two for three days.

Even though unschooling seems to be getting in the way---or even
*causing* the problems---I think it's much deeper than that. Please
consider Retrouvaille!

I'd be happy to talk with you offlist, if that would help. You may call
me: 803 776 4849 home or 803 237 4948 cell


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

brad jones

It is obvious that this man has some sort of deep rooted anger at himself evidenced by illogically blaming you for his pain. It is illogical because he is asserting that "loose parenting" is the skill he doesn't agree with but not recognizing that he betrays himself to be a "loose parenter" by not accepting his responsibilty to correct it if he sees it as a problem. So to me that means that possibly he is angry at himself for NOT being the type of parent he thinks he should be, and is therefore taking it out on you by threatening your marriage, he must think that is a weak spot where you are concerned or he wouldn't use it as a threat. It also betrays that he may not consider himself to be the type of husband that he thinks he should be. If I were you and I really wanted him to be happy and at peace with you and the children, simply find ways to help this man be the father and husband he wants to be.


Maisha Khalfani <maitai373@...> wrote:
I don't know if this is for this list or not, but dh and I had a
not-so-peaceful discussion this morning.

He was angry with me from last night because Khalid was playing with our
dresser. He had opened up all of the drawers, and then the dresser started
to fall down on him. Dh and I grabbed the dresser and the drawers as they
spilled out. Dh hurt his knee. He blamed my "loose parenting" for his
pain.

This morning I tried to explain to him that I wasn't being a loose parent.
Had I known the dresser would fall I would have stopped Khalid. (just an
aside: after the dressers fell Khalid was very scared. I hugged him and
asked him if he was okay. He said yes, but he was more concerned about how
his father felt, and was worried about daddy being mad at him).

Okay...so I try to get my point across to dh about how I want to live
peacefully, how if I were to die tonight the dresser wouldn't be important,
how I want to live in joy and peace. He doesn't think that type of
thinking can work at all. He just doesn't see it. He even went so far as
to say that our marriage wouldn't work if I continued to parent this way.

I feel frustrated, but not angry. I'm surprised because I'm not
worried..but it is frustrating. Is there anyone else going through this? Is
it either "my way" or "his way"? Is there a compromise through this?

be at peace,

Maisha

Khalfani Family Adventures <http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>

EarthSpirit Journeys <http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

I don't think anything can work unless all parties involved are
willing to try. My husband and I go to counseling as regularly as we
can considering his work schedule. If my husband hadn't been willing
to go (which I hear from a lot of women to whom I suggest it), I
don't think our marriage would've lasted this long. We started out
at such different places in parenting and seemed to be drifting
further and further apart. We still don't agree on everything (does
anyone?) but we have moved much closer to each other. Of course, you
have to make sure to find a counselor/therapist who understands and
supports gentle parenting and such. We don't tell our counselor
everything we do RUwise. That's all I can suggest.

Alysia

--- In [email protected], "Maisha Khalfani"
<maitai373@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know if this is for this list or not, but dh and I had a
> not-so-peaceful discussion this morning.
>
>
>
> He was angry with me from last night because Khalid was playing
with our
> dresser. He had opened up all of the drawers, and then the
dresser started
> to fall down on him. Dh and I grabbed the dresser and the drawers
as they
> spilled out. Dh hurt his knee. He blamed my "loose parenting"
for his
> pain.
>
>
>
> This morning I tried to explain to him that I wasn't being a
loose parent.
> Had I known the dresser would fall I would have stopped Khalid.
(just an
> aside: after the dressers fell Khalid was very scared. I hugged
him and
> asked him if he was okay. He said yes, but he was more concerned
about how
> his father felt, and was worried about daddy being mad at him).
>
>
>
> Okay...so I try to get my point across to dh about how I want to
live
> peacefully, how if I were to die tonight the dresser wouldn't be
important,
> how I want to live in joy and peace. He doesn't think that type
of
> thinking can work at all. He just doesn't see it. He even went
so far as
> to say that our marriage wouldn't work if I continued to parent
this way.
>
>
>
> I feel frustrated, but not angry. I'm surprised because I'm not
> worried..but it is frustrating. Is there anyone else going
through this? Is
> it either "my way" or "his way"? Is there a compromise through
this?
>
>
>
> be at peace,
>
> Maisha
>
> Khalfani Family Adventures
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
>
> EarthSpirit Journeys <http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cristina Pertierra

Maisha,

Your discussion with your dh reminded me of all the arguments my dh and
I used to have when Coco was small. To this day, he sometimes slips and
begins down a path of regression. After a couple of years of
counseling, which I recommend, we were able to work through that. For
my dh it was a feeling of powerlessness and vulnerability; 2 emotions
most men have trouble dealing with him. Most men feel they're
programmed to fix things, and when they can't, in the case of your dh
and mine, they look to blame. This is what I call the "stubbed toe
reaction" where you blame the table for being where it is when you
accidentally crush your toes as you're walking by. I'm pretty sure your
dh wished he could turn back time and be there before the dresser began
to fall down on Khalid, but barring that possibility it turns into a
"you should've known . . .you could've done . . .why didn't you . . ."
In your case, dh blamed it on your "loose parenting." "Loose parenting"
has nothing to do with what happened. I think he knows that.

What's even more frustrating is he's using what happened as "evidence"
that your method of parenting is not working. Once in a while my dh
still brings up the same argument. I realize, however, he brings it up
during moments of frustration. I usually don't address it at the time,
rather I wait for a good calm moment to address his concerns.
Thankfully, we end up agreeing. Where we've had issues come up is when
it goes beyond frustration and he treats dd in a non-unschooly manner
(I'm still working on it).

I believe what helps is my ability to, usually, understand that I have a
lot more exposure and a lot more info. about our parenting methods, and
recognize how grateful I am that he appeases me as we learn together.
If you can step away from the impulse to become defensive and try to
understand what he's feeling and what he needs, you'll be better able to
fulfill that need which will diffuse his frustration/fear/concern.
This, imo, is best done when he's no longer upset.

What I would ideally say to dh in your situation is "I'm sorry. This is
my fault, I should have known that dresser would fall . . .If I would've
been paying closer attention I would've been able to . . .Are you ok,
honey?" In reality, it is our (the parents') fault. It doesn't mean it
was intentional, or even negligent. We can't ALWAYS anticipate what
will happen or be needed, we can only try. But I also believe this
approach shifts the "blame" from a parenting philosophy and places it
where it belongs, on us, the practitioners. After all, the philosophy,
if ideally practiced on your dresser example, would have been to be
there, supporting the dresser so it wouldn't tip over while Khalid
played and explored.

Hope this helped.

Cristina (whose married to the 1st boy who asked her to go steady when
she was 15, 22 years ago and gave her 2 beautiful girls:o))



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

<<What I would ideally say to dh in your situation is "I'm sorry. This is
my fault, I should have known that dresser would fall . . .If I would've
been paying closer attention I would've been able to . . .Are you ok,
honey?">>



That's what I did. I guess if it were just me then it would be fine. But
then (in front of the children) he says stuff like how I can just raise "my
kids" and that he's done with it all. Or he blames the children for things
that go wrong (if he can't find a book, his wallet, etc he'll say "the kids
are always losing my stuff" or something to that effect).



Just this evening he asked me to open a can of spaghetti sauce, so I
did..but I left the top on it. I thought he would be using it right away.
Then..about 15 minutes after I open the can, I hear this yell from the
kitchen. And he's mad at me because I left the top on and it sunk into the
can. I apologize, ask if I can do anything to help. His response "NO.
That's what I get for asking for your help." He continues on with some
other stuff (usually he'll continue talking about me out loud. I'm assuming
trying to goad me into a fight, but I generally refuse to go along for that
ride). I had tuned him out and put my headphones back on.



I guess in the midst of my learning to be peaceful, I feel like he's
"getting away with" his behavior. There's nothing that he's losing on his
end, at least nothing that I can see. I'd like to not see him as getting
away with bad behavior. I don't think that point of view is helpful. How
else can I look at it?



I'm sorry if this is taking up time here. I don't know, maybe this is part
of the basics of learning this lifestyle. Maybe there is some other mom
lurking on the list dealing with some of the same issues.



be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

<<If I were you and I really wanted him to be happy and at peace with you
and the children, simply find ways to help this man be the father and
husband he wants to be.>>



I'm working on that. But you know the saying: you can lead a horse to water
but you can't make them drink it.



be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~<<If I were you and I really wanted him to be happy and at peace
with you and the children, simply find ways to help this man be the
father and husband he wants to be.>>~~


I've had a rough week, so maybe I missed something in this
thread...BUT this seems to be placing the responsibility for his
actions on Maisha! Yikes. It's not anybody's responsibility to change
someone elses behavior. If he wants to be a certain kind of man or
father, a partner can support those changes but it is NOT their
responsibility to cause such changes to happen.

If it was as simple as helping someone find ways to be the man/father
they wanted to be, there wouldn't be verbal and/or emotional abuse
happening. When people in the home feel fear, something is waaay out
of whack. Causing fear in each other is not what healthy relationships
are about. The only person that can truly change us is ourselves.
Maybe he doesn't want to change.


Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Adrean Clark

I saw that as well. Alarm bells went off when I read that. Maisha is
right in saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them
drink it. I'm not sure what to say except that the husband is the
only one who can change himself. We can skip around it but it's
ultimately his choice.

What can one do when the spouse is the brick wall in unschooling?

Adrean

brad jones

you can if you keep him there long enough, thirst will set in soon enough...... give it some thought.....

Maisha Khalfani <maitai373@...> wrote: <<If I were you and I really wanted him to be happy and at peace with you
and the children, simply find ways to help this man be the father and
husband he wants to be.>>

I'm working on that. But you know the saying: you can lead a horse to water
but you can't make them drink it.

be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

brad jones

I sincerely do not see how you could ascertain that I'm placing the responsibilities of his actions on Maisha by me suggesting she find ways to help him, to me it seems I'm placing the responsibility of finding ways to help on her. Nevertheless I can accept that perhaps I am a poor communicator and for that I beg forgiveness. That all being said I must confess that I am a true nihilist and I believe every human action is motivated by that human desiring to entertain it's self, so if a happy peaceful marriage and a more desirable husband and father is what Maisha wants to entertain herself with, then she might have to be proactive in that endeavor, since even as you yourself point out this might not be what hubby desires. It actually sounds like hubby don't know what he wants so she may as well decide for him since nothing will be lost in the end anyway, eh?

Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote: ~~<<If I were you and I really wanted him to be happy and at peace
with you and the children, simply find ways to help this man be the
father and husband he wants to be.>>~~

I've had a rough week, so maybe I missed something in this
thread...BUT this seems to be placing the responsibility for his
actions on Maisha! Yikes. It's not anybody's responsibility to change
someone elses behavior. If he wants to be a certain kind of man or
father, a partner can support those changes but it is NOT their
responsibility to cause such changes to happen.

If it was as simple as helping someone find ways to be the man/father
they wanted to be, there wouldn't be verbal and/or emotional abuse
happening. When people in the home feel fear, something is waaay out
of whack. Causing fear in each other is not what healthy relationships
are about. The only person that can truly change us is ourselves.
Maybe he doesn't want to change.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cristina Pertierra

Maisha,

Your dh still sounds a lot like mine used to, and sometimes, as I posted
earlier, a glimpse of the past transcends into our present. It's very
frustrating. I know. That is the reason why we decided to see a
therapist. He doesn't say or do these things anymore, unless he's
having a really bad moment. Because they're infrequent, we can work and
learn from them.

In the meantime, he really sounds miserable and as an integral part of
the family is making everyone else miserable. You can't fix him, but
maybe you can show him you take interest in making sure those things
that are important to him are kept away from your children's reach. If
for no other reason than to eliminate the possibility of him utilizing
the kids as scapegoats. If you see he places something within the kids'
reach, gently remind him the kids can get at it and maybe even offer to
move it to a more secure location.

Have you asked him what specifically it is he wants from you? I know
part of the problem with my dh was he didn't know how to articulate his
needs and wants and was holding me responsible for not fulfilling them,
leaving us both disappointed and frustrated. You being left feeling
like he's getting away with his behavior in an attempt to achieve peace
isn't fair for anyone. Defending yourself and attempting peace are not
mutually exclusive, you know? Even His Holiness The Dalai Lama has
expressed remorse over not leading his people in taking defensive action
against the Chinese, and learned in the process that defending oneself
is not disruptive to one's journey to enlightenment, nor is it
necessarily the antithesis to peaceful living. Good luck!

Cristina







-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisha Khalfani
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] still struggling



<<What I would ideally say to dh in your situation is "I'm sorry. This
is
my fault, I should have known that dresser would fall . . .If I would've
been paying closer attention I would've been able to . . .Are you ok,
honey?">>

That's what I did. I guess if it were just me then it would be fine. But
then (in front of the children) he says stuff like how I can just raise
"my
kids" and that he's done with it all. Or he blames the children for
things
that go wrong (if he can't find a book, his wallet, etc he'll say "the
kids
are always losing my stuff" or something to that effect).

Just this evening he asked me to open a can of spaghetti sauce, so I
did..but I left the top on it. I thought he would be using it right
away.
Then..about 15 minutes after I open the can, I hear this yell from the
kitchen. And he's mad at me because I left the top on and it sunk into
the
can. I apologize, ask if I can do anything to help. His response "NO.
That's what I get for asking for your help." He continues on with some
other stuff (usually he'll continue talking about me out loud. I'm
assuming
trying to goad me into a fight, but I generally refuse to go along for
that
ride). I had tuned him out and put my headphones back on.

I guess in the midst of my learning to be peaceful, I feel like he's
"getting away with" his behavior. There's nothing that he's losing on
his
end, at least nothing that I can see. I'd like to not see him as getting
away with bad behavior. I don't think that point of view is helpful. How
else can I look at it?

I'm sorry if this is taking up time here. I don't know, maybe this is
part
of the basics of learning this lifestyle. Maybe there is some other mom
lurking on the list dealing with some of the same issues.

be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifami <http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
lyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritj <http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/>
ourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

<<It actually sounds like hubby don't know what he wants so she may as well
decide for him since nothing will be lost in the end anyway, eh? >>



LOL - this made me laugh because it's probably true.



be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

<<Defending yourself and attempting peace are not
mutually exclusive, you know?>>



Thanks Cristina - that input was helpful to my state of mind.



By the way..I highly recommend Eckhart Tolle's new book: A New Earth. (I
got the paperback for $14 at a local bookstore)



be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark V Fullerton

Here is a link to a blog entry about setting boundaries in the context of unschooling that
may interest you:
http://heartschooling.blogspot.com/2008/02/boundaries-within-unschooling.html
I don't think the particular incident you described is an example of this (except perhaps in
the sense of needing to create some boundaries of your own), but the general gist of it may
address some of your dh's concerns.

Marie

I've been on this list before. Trust is the issue. I am desparately
trying not to loose it emotionally. Our days seem so hap-hazard. I
have been trying to engage my kids interesting topics, activities,
projects. I'm not forcing them to do anything they don't want to
do. I've asked them what they would like to do but when I set out to
get them started, their interest is nil. My 8 year old is torn
between wanting "school" and a classroom of friends and just being at
home. My 10 year old is stuck on a new passion which is fine but
twirlings on a chair in front of his computer with little focus. He
seems to want some direction but isn't taking any. Maybe this is
just a bad day. I have this lovely image of how this is supposed to
work, perhaps working outside and discovering new things, or looking
up phases of the moon "hey you guys, did you see that moon last
night..." and they just want to be wild and silly. Developmentally,
perhaps they are not ready for anything anothe than just being. I am
feeling rather inadequate today. I worry that they are bored,
unchallenged and unmotivated to do anything.

Advice, please.

Marie