organicsis

I was discussing this with my mom awhile back and have since mulled it over and over in my head. I'd like to get some unschooling opinion on the matter to contrast what I've heard so far.

We were discussing unschooling and freedom to choose and learning through experience instead of forcefully trying to teach someone something. She understands and supports what we do but made a point that has been popping into my mind on occasion. She said that it is still important to help your child to form good habits and help them see when bad habits might be forming. She was talking mainly in terms of health matters such as brushing your teeth or showering and she was referring to younger kids (under 5) mostly but to all people really.

What are all your thoughts on this subject? Do you believe unschoolers can (or generally do not) form bad habits or do you think it's important to help little ones form good habits? Do you think there is anything to "good/bad habits" at all from an unschooling standpoint?


Tara
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Deb

My first thought was Are there any absolute good/bad habits? Yeah,
there are some - there are habits (of doing or thinking) that can be
damaging as there are habits (of doing or thinking) that can be
positive. But, it's not quite as black and white as it might seem.
And, most of the "good" habits are things that can develop without
being pushed because they are positive/helpful/etc.

On a personal anecdotal level, my almost 10 yr old has taken to
showering about once a week. We've never required bathing really. In
the summer, when his feet are generally really grubby by settling in
time, I'd get a washcloth and wash his feet. And there have been
times he's bathed/showered multiple times per day just to play in the
water. His current situation is that he's started to notice that if
he's gone for several days without showering, he starts to get a
little 'funky' in his underarms (he'll wake up, sniff his armpits and
say "I'm stinky, I need to shower" and off he goes). He's also been
resistant to hair washing, so we would ask if he wanted it or no -
often it was no and that was that. But, more recently, he's made a
connection between the way his scalp feels and hair/scalp washing.
So, as usual, if he's showering/bathing, I'll ask if he wants me to
wash his hair. More often now he's saying yes. And we've worked out a
system/procedure that he is comfortable with - I get a dry washcloth
that he can hold over his face (he doesn't like water in his face,
takes after me - I keep a towel over the shower rod so I can dry my
face immediately after washing it and any time water splashes in it
while I shower). Then I use the hand held sprayer (we have a dual
head shower which is wonderful, not expensive, easy to install) to
spray his head, get a small amount of shampoo and lather it in my
hands first then rub his head and rinse again with the sprayer. Then
we dab his face dry and he's on his own for the rest of the shower
(however long he wants that to be).

Likewise, if he hasn't brushed his teeth for a few days, he (or I or
DH) might notice his breath is "Hot" (his term for it) or "Stinky"
and off we'll go to brush (he still wants assistance when he
brushes). He's got a couple of brushes to choose from and a
toothpaste he chose (nothing minty - too strong for him).

--Deb

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 22, 2008, at 1:57 AM, organicsis wrote:

> She was talking mainly in terms of health matters such as brushing
> your teeth or showering and she was referring to younger kids
> (under 5) mostly but to all people really.

When my daughter was very young she didn't like brushing her teeth
mostly because she was too aware of the process. She hadn't done it
enough to get to the point where she could do it automatically
without thinking about it.

One solution would be to make her until she can do it without
thinking about it. To form a habit. It's not very respectful though.

When I was a kid I remember being sent to brush my teeth alone and it
took *hours*. Okay, not really ;-) It felt like hours!

So what I did with my daughter was to do it with her. We talked and
joked. I made sure she had a brush and toothpaste she liked. I'm sure
I must have mentioned preventing cavities in there at some point.
Eventually it became automatic. Sometimes she would say she didn't
feel like brushing. I'd say don't. And she'd say what if I get a
cavity and we'd talk about the difference between habitually not
brushing and skipping once. I can't remember her choosing not to
brush but it would have been okay if she had.

We can help them form habits by means other than forcing them to go
through the motions. We can eliminate the parts the object to and
work with them. We can make sure they know they do have a choice.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

Showers are few and far between in this house? Or is that far and few
between??? LOL

For brushing teeth we've made it as easy as possible. We used to
brush our teeth together, now the boys prefer to brush together. Some
kids like a small mirror to watch themselves. Toothbrushes and
toothpaste can be moved. Another bathroom? Kitchen sink? We also
let the kids pick out their brushes. Right now they really like their
electric power ranger brushes! We also buy natural toothpaste (Tom's
of Maine kids strawberry) which has a mild flavor they don't seem to
mind. We also bought flossers, rather than using regular dental
floss. My older son has had experience with cavities, so he doesn't
seem to mind brushing and flossing so much anymore. for my younger
one (3) as long as I don't push he will let me help him out once a
week or so. the other times he does it himself. I know its not
perfect, but we have sort of made a game with the "EEEE! AAAAAHHHH!
OOOOHHHH!" mouth shapes. :-)




--- In [email protected], organicsis <organicsis@...>
wrote:
>
> I was discussing this with my mom awhile back and have since mulled
it over and over in my head. I'd like to get some unschooling opinion
on the matter to contrast what I've heard so far.
>
> We were discussing unschooling and freedom to choose and learning
through experience instead of forcefully trying to teach someone
something. She understands and supports what we do but made a point
that has been popping into my mind on occasion. She said that it is
still important to help your child to form good habits and help them
see when bad habits might be forming. She was talking mainly in terms
of health matters such as brushing your teeth or showering and she was
referring to younger kids (under 5) mostly but to all people really.
>
> What are all your thoughts on this subject? Do you believe
unschoolers can (or generally do not) form bad habits or do you think
it's important to help little ones form good habits? Do you think
there is anything to "good/bad habits" at all from an unschooling
standpoint?
>
>
> Tara
> Our Unschooling Blog:
> http://heartschooling.blogspot.com
> Check these out:
> http://www.ardenguy.com/index.htm
> http://RonPaul2008.com
> http://RonPaulLibrary.com
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2PUZoukfA&eurl=
> http://www.NVHSforRonPaul.blogspot.com
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 21, 2008, at 10:57 PM, organicsis wrote:

>
> What are all your thoughts on this subject? Do you believe
> unschoolers can (or generally do not) form bad habits or do you
> think it's important to help little ones form good habits? Do you
> think there is anything to "good/bad habits" at all from an
> unschooling standpoint?

Habits are super important.

Does she mean that you have to force certain things so that kids will
develop good habits? That's not so.

Habits are just things you regularly do without too much thought. My
husband and I say "Thank you" a lot to each other and to the kids, its
a habit, and they've developed the habit, too. We didn't make them say
"thank you" a lot - they just picked it up because it was part of the
way they lived.

If you force something - you often build resistance, so it can
backfire. When a parent forces a child to do dishes, for example, a
child can be doing them every night, but, far from developing a habit
of keeping the dishes done, he can be constantly thinking, "I HATE
doing dishes." As soon as he is released from the parents' control, he
may never do dishes again if he can find any way out of it. Or, he may
feel horribly guilty every time there is a dirty dish in the sink and
become anxious and obsessive about dishes. That's not a good habit,
either.

Gentle support in developing good habits is nice. Make brushing teeth
every night a calm and happy part of the evening, if you can. It isn't
worth forcing it, if you can't make it calm and happy.

My three unschooled kids are 17, 20, and 23 - they all have the habit
of brushing their teeth, even though I never once made them do it. I
do make a special effort to get the particular kind of toothpaste that
my 17 yo really likes.

I don't know if this helps - but maybe you could be more specific
about what kinds of habits you're worrying about?

-pam

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: organicsis <organicsis@...>

She said that it is still important to help your child to
form good habits and help them see when bad habits might be forming.
She was
talking mainly in terms of health matters such as brushing your teeth
or
showering and she was referring to younger kids (under 5) mostly but to
all
people really.

What are all your thoughts on this subject? Do you believe unschoolers
can (or
generally do not) form bad habits or do you think it's important to
help little
ones form good habits? Do you think there is anything to "good/bad
habits" at
all from an unschooling standpoint?

-=-=-=-=-=-

Twenty-five-thirty years ago, a woman selling make-up ("Hello, My name
is Janet Whisnant, and welcome to the wonderful world of
Allouette!"---see, I still remember her opening line! <G>) was trying
to make us see that we can *learn* to do daily facial care. She quoted
some study that said that it only takes 21 days to establish a
habit---good or bad.

Now, I don't know whether that's true or not, but I've thought about it
a LOT since then.

I must be stopping somewhere between 18 and 20 days. <BWG>

I can't think of *any* "habit" I have.

I brush my teeth because my breath is sour in the morning---NOT because
it's a habit. I brush them in the evening because I feel the icky film
across them.

I shower mostly because I like the feel of water. <g> Or because my
hair is limp and bodiless---or because I've been out in the garden and
am caked in dirt. It's certainly not a "habit."

I generally make supper every evening---but what about the nights I
don't feel like it or want to go out? Have I "broken" the habit?

I feed the dog because he starts barking and fussing at 4:30/5:00. I
really have to remind myself to feed the fish.

I guess it's a habit that I pocket my keys when I get out of the
car---and pat my pocket before I lock the car to make sure I *have*
them and haven't locked them in the car. Is that a "habit" or fear? <G>

To *me*, I just DO. Sometimes, I do *not*. <G> It's a choice.

But I try really hard to *model* good choice-making for my boys! <G>
And encourage good choice-making in them.

Does that answer *nothing*? <BWG>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org




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Nicole Willoughby

We can help them form habits by means other than forcing them to go
through the motions. We can eliminate the parts the object to and
work with them. We can make sure they know they do have a choice.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My 8yr old dd has been going through a phase for about a year now where she dosent like to bathe........... esp during the winter.

Ive taken her to pick out what type of soap she wanted...we bought several sample sizes so we could try different stuff. Talked about it being cold getting out of the shower and discussed turning up the heat for a bit, asking me to bring a hot towel out of the dryer when possible, and the warmest times to shower. Weve talked about body odor and enjoying being close to people when they smell good....along with the general health reasons .

Just the past couple weeks she has been showering or taking a bath at least every other day without any mention from me . Today all 3 kids played at the park and the 2 younger asked for a bath about 7. She came and told me that she had wiped off with a wet washcloth and needed to write a letter to aunt angie on her new horse paper so she would shower in the morning.

I didnt remove limits and then have this perfectly clean kid ( does it ever happen that way lol? ) with fantastic personal hygeine habbits 2 weeks later. I do think it was worth the effort to now have a child who is paying attention to it because wants to and not because I insist she get in the shower.

Nicole


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Tara

>
> I don't know if this helps - but maybe you could be more specific
> about what kinds of habits you're worrying about?
>
> -pam
>


Hmm, when I really think about it I'm not really worried about any
one habit. Just a general wondering if the whole "habits are hard to
break" thing has any merit to an unschooling lifestyle. I mean it
seems that for the most part, if a kid is used to the freedom of
choosing then maybe they wouldn't feel as if it was hard to break;
maybe they'd just do something different cuz they choose to.

But when I think about my own habits, I know I struggle (and/or have
struggled) to break habits and that it has frustrated me. I guess I'm
wondering if by some magical act of unschooling, if our kids will not
be affected the same way. LOL That just sounds like a dumb question
huh? But I'm really unsure of the answer.

I guess if there is something to it though, then maybe I would have a
worry. Like right now I'm comfortable with his eating mac and cheese
all the time but dang I hope that doesn't become a lifelong habit of
only wanting mac and cheese! LMAO

Anyway, I'm not really sure where I'm going with any of this; I guess
I just needed some unschooling dialogue on the matter to help me
formulate my ideas on it better. Not that it got me anywhere! hahaha

~ tara :]

nanceconfer

I like mac & cheese. Sometimes you get in the mood. And I do remember
making it about a billion times a week for the kids when they were
younger. It tastes good! :)

But then we went through a period when nobody wanted it and now when
we have it it's a nice treat.

Worries like this always remind me of my Mom. She went to her doctor
for a checkup and asked if it was OK that sometimes she is just so
busy and she is just cooking for herself now and so she slaps together
a PB&J -- more than just sometimes, a lot of the time -- for her lunch.

The doctor assured her that it was fine and she is generally in good
health and not to worry about it. She was used to making more formal
sit-down lunches for her and my Dad and this worried her. So hearing
from the doctor that there was plenty of nutrition in a PB&J for lunch
reassured her.

When we think about it, it does seem silly to worry about lunch habits
and whether they might ever change -- as you make the billionth pot of
mac & cheese! :) But even a silly worry can still bother us.

Nance


Like right now I'm comfortable with his eating mac and cheese
all the time but dang I hope that doesn't become a lifelong habit of
only wanting mac and cheese! LMAO

Mark V Fullerton

<"... when I think about my own habits, I know I struggle (and/or have
struggled) to break habits and that it has frustrated me.>

You might find it easier to change old habits and develop new ones if
you replace thinking in terms of "breaking a habit" (suggesting that
you expect to apply force and meet resistance) with "practicing a new
behavior" (suggesting that you allow yourself time for the new
behavior to become a habit).
And in general, it seems that we are often motivated to change
something by noticing what we *don't* want; but as this is a bit of an
abstraction, we need to start focusing on what would be an example of
what we "do* want before the "start practicing a new behavior" part of
us can begin to engage.