Jennifer

[I posted this on AlwaysLearning last night and then
realized I really should have posted it here.}

Our oldest child is almost seven and is unschooling.

My husband goes through various degrees of fear ...
there are certain things about unschooling that have
always appealed to him, but right now he's going
through one of his "doubt periods."

Today I printed and read a few articles from Sandra's
reading page to him. He liked them, but had some
questions. I told him I would write down some of his
comments and present them to you guys, and he seemed
to like that idea.

Here are some of his comments:

*****************************************************

"Sometimes you need somebody to kinda help push you
through a sticky spot [in learning and/or achieving
something], and then you appreciate it."

****************************************************
"I know from my own experience that there are certain
things people are never going to be *very* good at,
like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
wiser and knows how to lead you through it.

And sometimes they make take you through some
seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
but you trust them, because you know they can take you
somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
get on his own."

******************************************************
"Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"

******************************************************
"Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,
but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
It seems like what would maximize learning potential
would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
all structured learning to the wind?"

******************************************************

Oh, and this one I forgot about when I posted
originally: "I'm afraid [our six year old daughter]
isn't being challenged enough ... and the longer that
goes on, the hesitant she'll be to challenge herself,
and the more resistant she'll be to challenges. I'm
afraid that after a while she'll even start to feel
like she's stupid."

Thanks so much
Jenny


Visit me and my family at my blog!

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/



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swissarmy_wife

I'd like to try a couple of these! Kind of like testing my own
learning process. LOL

> Here are some of his comments:
>
> *****************************************************
>
> "Sometimes you need somebody to kinda help push you
> through a sticky spot [in learning and/or achieving
> something], and then you appreciate it."

Well, the first thing that came to mind was would I rather be PUSHED
through a cave or be guided through!

I think there is a huge difference between pushed and guided. In my
experience this isn't even unschooling specific. It is also easy to
come to the conclusion that a child who isn't pushed doesn't want to
elarn/achieve ANTYHING. Especially given the resistance that public
school children have toward learning new things. they are being
pushed every day. Children who have never been to school or who are
completely deschooled won't have that resistance. Unless of course,
it TRULY isn't something they want/need to learn right now.

> ****************************************************
> "I know from my own experience that there are certain
> things people are never going to be *very* good at,
> like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
> a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
> wiser and knows how to lead you through it.
>
> And sometimes they make take you through some
> seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
> but you trust them, because you know they can take you
> somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
> look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
> on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
> sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
> teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
> get on his own."

I love the Karate kid movies! They are my son's favorites! You may
also notice that in the Karate Kid Mr. Miagi (sp) never once required
anything of Daniel. He offered his help and was open to Daniel when
he was ready.

>
> ******************************************************
> "Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"
>
Maybe this is another misconception of unschooling. Unschooling isn't
hands-off parenting. It seems like I went through a short period of
time like that. Where i was kind of hands off, and sat back thinking
to myself, "what's wrong here". LOL Maybe if you think of the parent
as more of a facilitator. Or a even a guide. Or even "partner in
crime" is one of my favorites. We do all sorts of things together
now, sometimes they are the kids ideas, sometimes they are mine. It's
been awhile since we've really hunkered down and stuck to one
thing/topic, but I will tell you that our lives are richer than they
ever have been.

> ******************************************************
> "Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,
> but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
> for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
> It seems like what would maximize learning potential
> would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
> all structured learning to the wind?"

Not at all. I don't think there's a lot of benefit to a child if they
don't want to do this type of learning. Children (and this goes for
humans and animals) are the most curious beings. They learn with all
their senses. It is only in recent times that we have decided that
children need to learn only with books and teachers and one or two
field trips a year.

Maybe he would agree that when the experience is joyful the learning
is maximized. When the learning is boring and forced, so much is
lost. Like... Joy!

There may also be a time when someone chooses that type of focussed
and structured learning. But really, it isn't and shouldn't be
considered the only and right way.
>
> ******************************************************
>
> Oh, and this one I forgot about when I posted
> originally: "I'm afraid [our six year old daughter]
> isn't being challenged enough ... and the longer that
> goes on, the hesitant she'll be to challenge herself,
> and the more resistant she'll be to challenges. I'm
> afraid that after a while she'll even start to feel
> like she's stupid."
>
I don't know one always unschooled child that feels stupid. I'm not
saying this can't happen, or doesn't come up from tie to time. But in
my experience it usually comes from constantly being compared to other
kids your age.

Joyce Fetteroll

Here's what I answered on AlwaysLearning so if you're there too, this
is just a repeat. (Though not because the writers are on strike.) :-)
-- Joyce


On Feb 21, 2008, at 9:16 PM, Jennifer wrote:

> *****************************************************
>
> "Sometimes you need somebody to kinda help push you
> through a sticky spot [in learning and/or achieving
> something], and then you appreciate it."
>
> ****************************************************
>

People who've experienced a positive outcome from being pushed in
some activity they enjoy are certain this is true.

People who've experienced a negative outcome usually don't make
generalization about pushing being universally good or bad. They just
decide they don't like the pusher, don't like what they were being
pushed to do, and don't like being pushed.

So the larger truth in the above statement is that people remember
the positive results and forget the negative results. A not very
scientific process!

In the long run, it's better not to learn to depend on an outside
source to push you past rough spots. It's far more useful for a
lifetime to learn how to push yourself. Kids get that by having
opportunities to discover that by pushing past rough spots, there are
-- usually! -- rewards and a sense of accomplishment beyond the rough
patches. And a really useful skill is being able to assess along the
way and determine when an activity is draining more than it's
returning (or likely to return.) Sometimes we'll guess wrong. But
that's okay. We learn from our mistakes. And when we have the freedom
to drop things and pick them up again, we know we can go back and
pick something up when we feel we're ready for it.

That said, people can *choose* to find someone who will push them,
knowing full well that they're choosing to be pushed and can choose
to drop the pushing any time. (Athletic coaches come to mind.) While
choosing to have someone push you may look the same from the outside
as someone pushing someone else, it has a totally different feel
inside the person. And since all learning happens inside, what's
happening inside the person is more important than what it looks like
from outside.


> "I know from my own experience that there are certain
> things people are never going to be *very* good at,
> like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
> a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
> wiser and knows how to lead you through it.
>

This is true. But what we don't know is what *else* they would have
done if they had the freedom. We *can't* know. And because we can't
know, it's scary. If we're in a place we like, it's scary to think we
wouldn't have gotten there except by being pushed.

It's good to take fears out and examine them! Often they encourage us
to do things to avoid worst case scenarios to make us feel comfortable.

There isn't a way around that fear other than face it. To also see
the benefits of unschooling until that becomes way more important
than the unfounded fears.

And unschoolers *do* introduce their kids to a variety of activities.
When the kids show an interest in something, we help them find ways
to explore it. If they want, that can be a mentor who knows an
instrument well or knows programming if that's where they're headed.

Unschooled kids *do* let us know what interests them even when it's
outside of the things we're showing them. They may not jump directly
to programming but they will be asking questions about how people
get things to do things. And it grows from there as we find ways to
answer their questions, and find others to answer their questions
when the need more than we can provide.


> and knows how to lead you through it.
>

That's one of the sticking points to getting unschooling. When we
only know the success of being led through something, when we see all
that we needed to know in order to get where we ended up, it seems
impossible for that to have happened any other way.

The biggest cure to that is seeing kids who have learned loads about
something just by playing, wanting to learn it, and doing it. Kids
learn HTML, Java and Javascript all by wanting to do stuff with it
without a programmed process leading them from one thing to another.
They just plunge in and learn what they need in the moment. (It's
exactly how I learned HTML.) While the process is chaotic and pretty
much untestable since kids are zigzagging from one bit to another,
reaching for what they need to know in the moment without any
apparent plan to get "everything", the process is exactly the way
they learn to speak English. And that works *way* better than sitting
in a classroom to supposedly learn Spanish!

Unschooling is a lot like the process my daughter is going through
learning guitar. She told her instructor what kind of music she liked
and they both work together on suggesting what she could learn.
Sometimes she picks the songs. Sometimes he does. She likes the blues
but he had a lot more knowledge and helped her a lot on what he
suggested she learned. Sometimes she sees someone doing something and
tells him she'd like to learn it. Sometimes she figures it out on her
own. While he suggests and helps because he has a bigger picture of
music, she's in the driver's seat and can decide which way to
ultimately go.

That sounds scary when we're used to programmed learning! What if she
misses something? Ah, the truth is that programmed learners miss
loads. They just don't know it! The programmed course leads them to
believe it's everything they need. People buy into that. But when you
walk into work that first day, you realize how much you don't know!
And a much more useful skill is knowing that you don't know
everything but having the confidence you can learn it when you need
it -- rather than assuming you need someone to teach it to you :-)

(That's not a perfect analogy since you need to know something to get
the job! But with unschooling, kids are learning all along, getting
what they need to know. It's just a different process. They get to
the job *better* prepared because they've had the freedom to do real
life versions of the job rather than cramming in esoteric information
that might suit the type of job they might want one day.)

The beauty of learning by doing is that we naturally encounter what
we need to know. We come across problems and learn -- as a side
effect -- what we need to get past it. We encounter everything we
need in real life contexts.

Just as it was with learning English. Kids don't set out to learn
English. They set out to get from life what they want. English is a
tool that that use. They don't even consciously try to improve their
tool use. They just get better at it by using it as a side effect of
wanting something else.

That's how unschooling works.


> ******************************************************
> And sometimes they make take you through some
> seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
> but you trust them, because you know they can take you
> somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
> look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
> on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
> sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
> teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
> get on his own."
>
> ******************************************************
>

Again, people remember the times that worked for them.

There are far more numerous times when it doesn't work, when it turns
someone off to something they would have enjoyed.

What turned me off to organ was learning songs that I didn't care to
learn because there was supposedly a progression one had to go
through. The teachers went through it and it got them where they are
so the progression must work. Well, actually what it did was filter
out the people that process didn't work for!

My daughter is learning to play the guitar by playing the rock songs
she wants to play. She's motivated to work past the tough spots
because she wants the song. As opposed to the standard method of
cramming in all the stuff kids will one day need to play what they
want. Most kids never get past the cramming part. My daughter gets to
jump right to what she wants and learns what she needs as a side
effect because she wants to.

I agree with Schuyler about the Karate Kid. Actually I like the scene
because I like the feeling of knowing something someone else doesn't
and making them do things to get them to understand not only what I
know but that I'm superior.

It's a power trip.

And that's a good thing to recognize so we can avoid doing it to our
kids because the other end of the power trip is *not* fun. The
learner may learn something, but in the process they learn that
having power rocks and not having power sucks. It can motivate
someone to learn (have power) but it can also motivate people to lord
their power over others because they were deprived of power
themselves. (They become sensei who foist the wax on wax off power
trip onto their students because it was done to them.)


> ******************************************************
> "Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"
>
> ******************************************************
>

If you're imagining unschooling as parents stepping back and children
learning everything on their own through their own discoveries, then no.

If you're imagining children having *the freedom* to explore
according to their interests, then yes.

It's our job as parents to run the parts of the world we think might
interest them into their lives. And to help them reach what they're
trying to reach. And to get out of their way when they're engaged.

Part of unschooling is being on the look out for things a child might
like. Just as you might do for your wife. If you're in a bookstore
and see a book you're pretty sure she'd like, you might buy it for
her or at least tell her. Let her know it exists. We do that for our
kids. But more actively since they can't be as much out in the world
as adults can, won't be scanning lists of classes and events for
something that sounds interesting. We use our superior knowledge of
the world to filter out the stuff that probably won't interest them
so they can see the stuff of potential interests.

It's *really* hard to see how it works when the only model someone is
familiar with is schooled kids who are being made to learn. Schooled
kids tend to avoid stuff that has the patina of school because they
negatively associate those things with school. Unschooled kids don't
have that. Shakespeare and Spongebob are all equal: something to like
or not like today.



> ******************************************************
> "Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,
> but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
> for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
> It seems like what would maximize learning potential
> would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
> all structured learning to the wind?"
> ******************************************************
>

The advantage we have is that we know kids (our own and ourselves
too!) who have experienced forced learning and natural learning. We
can see the difference. Those who have only experienced forced
learning can only imagine what the effect of natural learning is by
extrapolating from forced learning.

Doesn't work. What seems likely to happen isn't what actually happens.

As for focused, structured, incremental ... I think you're equating
it with forced learning. The two can be separated! My daughter has
been taking college math classes since she was 13. She likes them. To
her they're fun. Statistics, problem solving, algebra, pre-calculus.
Two her father taught, all of them she and her Dad did the homework
together in the evening. What encouraged her to keep taking classes
was that his goal wasn't for her to learn but to have fun. As a side
effect, she did learn. (Or at least did well on the tests which isn't
necessarily the same thing!)

What my husband does with our daughter is what, I think, people
imagine the ideal of structured learning is. Two people working
together, having fun in discovering things through a structured
course. But it isn't the structured course that comes from. You can't
sit a child down with a course and expect that magic to happen. It
comes from someone loving the material, being enthusiastic and not
caring if the child does the material or not. The goal is to have
fun. If it's not fun, it gets dropped for something that is fun.

Unschooling is about choice.

Another thing about focused, structured, incremental learning is that
the results are a lot easier to see. Structured education is more
satisfying from someone *monitoring* the learning process. (It's also
easier for educators to prove to parents, states and the school board
that learning is taking place.) We *assume* that since we can see the
learning and the progress that it must be superior to learning
organically.

Can you prove that? How would you prove it? With a test that is
designed to test whether structured teaching has in fact resulted in
learning?

Can schools prove that their focused, structured, incremental process
works? They have some kids that come out having done well on tests,
but they also have kids who don't. They assume the process is
responsible for the successes but without a control group how can
they prove that claim? They can say the failures are the fault of the
kids or family life, but, again, without a control group, how can
they prove that claim?

The real proof is in what unschooled kids do as adults I think. We're
the control group. Our kids are learning and moving on in life
without forced learning so it *can't* be the forced learning that is
causing kids to learn in school. Fortunately we're paving the way
with our own kids so you don't have to just trust that this is all
some rosy glass type of deal. :-)

Joyce

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 22, 2008, at 5:50 AM, swissarmy_wife wrote:

> There may also be a time when someone chooses that type of focussed
> and structured learning. But really, it isn't and shouldn't be
> considered the only and right way.

Classes, textbooks, tests, lesson plans, lectures.....

It is an efficient way to put large numbers of people through a
process of exposure to a given body of material.

That doesn't make it the best way to learn and our kids are REALLY
lucky that they aren't stuck in a system that presumes it is.

Because our society places so much emphasis on schooling (which mostly
relies of formal educational methods), there is a tendency for people
to think of these methods as the best or even the only way to learn
something.

As unschoolers, we counter that bias by talking a lot about all the
other ways people learn.

But, unschooling doesn't mean never being able to choose formal
educational methods. It does mean seeing them for what they are,
efficient for delivery of a body of material, but not particularly
good at facilitating real learning, and, for unschoolers, just another
possible option.

-pam






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert Saxon

Hmmm...I'd like a crack. Hope these help.

*****************************************************

"Sometimes you need somebody to kinda help push you
through a sticky spot [in learning and/or achieving
something], and then you appreciate it."

A: <HACKNEYED_PHRASE>"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."
<\HACKNEYED_PHRASE>

You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Even if you force
your will on them, even though you know it's "for the better," they surely
don't appreciate it. After many years, I finally understand why my own
father "taught" me what he did, the way he did. And not surprisingly,
because he sucked at that kind of teaching, I didn't really learn those
lessons until long after the lesson was "taught." And THEN I get the guilt
trip that IF ONLY I HAD LISTENED.... Right, that whole line of reasoning is
for the birds.

****************************************************
"I know from my own experience that there are certain
things people are never going to be *very* good at,
like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
wiser and knows how to lead you through it.

And sometimes they make take you through some
seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
but you trust them, because you know they can take you
somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
get on his own."

A: Again, you can't teach someone who doesn't want to be taught.


******************************************************
"Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"

A: As long as they're not told they're too stupid to do it. I bought into
it, and now I'm a wonderful sheep. My DW can't understand how I can just
take someone else's "word for it." I have to work to maintain my own
identity sometimes.

Reverse question:
Does wisdom come only through old age?
It is said that the beginning Buddhist student sees only her/himself, the
cup and the tea.
The experienced (?) student can see that he and the cup and the tea are one.
The Master sees him/herself, the cup and the tea.

In some ways, I think we spend our lives to re-learn what kids already know.

******************************************************
"Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,
but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
It seems like what would maximize learning potential
would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
all structured learning to the wind?"

A: Great answers already!

******************************************************

"I'm afraid [our six year old daughter]
isn't being challenged enough ... I'm
afraid that after a while she'll even start to feel
like she's stupid."

A: I disagree. I think what discourages children the most is being told,
through words, actions, or the overall environment they live in, that they
cannot do it and that they must be helped. Another discouragement is that
they are constantly told that the world is a dangerous place. Told this
enough, they will believe that it is ONLY a dangerous place, and the only
SAFE place is to withdraw FROM the world. Given enough room and enough
experiences that the world is truly exciting and fun, she will challenge
herself in the ways that she wants and needs.

I agree that the "stupid" part comes from comparing with others. This can
be made worse if the child believes that the world is inherently dangerous
(withdraws), or that they cannot "do it" and must be constantly "helped."
Add comparison to other kids, and they would likely feel GROSSLY
inadequate. I know I did. NOT comparing is a really tough issue, but it is
an important one to be addressed.

I have more to add, but then I always do. ("I'm a ramblin' man, and I've
bored a lot of folks...all over the world...)

Rob Saxon
DH to Seana for 11 years
"Daddy!" to Elissa (4 10.5/12) and Genevieve (6)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer <beanmommy2@...>
*****************************************************

"Sometimes you need somebody to kinda help push you
through a sticky spot [in learning and/or achieving
something], and then you appreciate it."

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm trying really hard to think of a time when someone did this to me
that I actually appreciated.

Huh uh. I'm just resentful.

Unless it was something that *I* wanted in the first place. THAT s
different. If I'm struggling and I ask for assistance to get over the
hump---that's way different. I don't appreciate being forced to do
something "for my own good." A swift kick in my pants isn't a bad
thing---IF I'm looking for it.

-=-=-=-=-

"I know from my own experience that there are certain
things people are never going to be *very* good at,
like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
wiser and knows how to lead you through it.

And sometimes they make take you through some
seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
but you trust them, because you know they can take you
somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
get on his own."

-=-=-=-=-=

Maybe I don't remember the movie, but did the old man TELL the child
*why* he was doing the "wax on-wax off"? THat would make a really big
difference to me.

And not just telling the child. But having the child *understand*.

When Cameron first started with the drums, he didn't want to practice
paradiddles. It wasn't until *HE* found that he needed to do
paradiddles---why paradiddles were important---to HIM--that he decided
to play them.

Had Mr Miogi (or whatever his name was) had explained FIRST *why* and
had the boy understood their importance, it would have made him less
resentful and more interested in waxing on and off.

-=-=-=-=-=-

"Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Have you EVER read anything here that said that a child guides himself?

Is that what you husband thinks unschooling is?

That may be the fundamental confusion.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

"Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,
but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
It seems like what would maximize learning potential
would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
all structured learning to the wind?"

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Forced or chosen?

Often I indulge in focused, structured, incremental learning. So do my
husband and kids. That's absolutely natural when you are serious about
a passion. Or passionate about a seriousness. <g>

Why would you think there's NONE of that in unschooling?

I think we *grow* into it though---as our passions become more *firm*
and our goals more concrete.

I don't think young children need to focus so much. But I think if
there's something we're truly passionate about (at any age), we
naturally tend to focus more, structure our learning, and take more
deliberate, incremental steps.

They're not mutually exclusive.

-=-=-=-=-

Oh, and this one I forgot about when I posted
originally: "I'm afraid [our six year old daughter]
isn't being challenged enough ... and the longer that
goes on, the hesitant she'll be to challenge herself,
and the more resistant she'll be to challenges. I'm
afraid that after a while she'll even start to feel
like she's stupid."

-=-=-=-=-


OHMYGAWD! SIX????

A six year old needs to be challenged???

Don't you think LIFE is challenging *enough* at six without having
arbitrary challenges imposed on a *very* young child??

Seriously---she's mastering a language. She's learning how her body
moves and reacts. She's figuring out other humans' (and animals')
bodily cues. She's studying strangers and culture and customs and
smells.

At SIX, she's still grasping concepts (like numbers and vocabulary and
grammar and cuisine and culture) that an adult would CRINGE at if asked
to do so in a foreign land!

Give her a break! Don't overload her little mind and body!

She'll be up for many more challenges as she grows. I promise. It's
what humans DO.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

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Mark V Fullerton

I think the role of facilitator rather than teacher comes somewhat
more naturally to women than to men, to whom it may at first appear
purely passive. For men it may be easier to agree that there is a
difference between leadership and dictatorship. Then the question
becomes: how to put that distinction to work in practice?

Pamela Sorooshian

> "I know from my own experience that there are certain
> things people are never going to be *very* good at,
> like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
> a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
> wiser and knows how to lead you through it.

I wanted to go back to this -- it just isn't true.

Both guitar playing and computer programming are things people often
learn without someone leading them through it - they "play around"
with it, they pay attention to what other people have done, they try
stuff on their own, they have fun, they work at it and use a lot of
trial and error. But they most definitely do not need to have a
"teacher" for these things. Sometimes they might choose to utilize a
teacher for part of their journey, but it truly isn't necessary.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message---
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>

> "I know from my own experience that there are certain
> things people are never going to be *very* good at,
> like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
> a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
> wiser and knows how to lead you through it.

I wanted to go back to this -- it just isn't true.

Both guitar playing and computer programming are things people often
learn without someone leading them through it - they "play around"
with it, they pay attention to what other people have done, they try
stuff on their own, they have fun, they work at it and use a lot of
trial and error. But they most definitely do not need to have a
"teacher" for these things. Sometimes they might choose to utilize a
teacher for part of their journey, but it truly isn't necessary.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And I'd like to take it further.

At what point is someone "good" at something?

At what point is someone "wiser" and at what point can someone know how
to lead you through it?

At what point can *you* lead someone else?

The first time I actually *taught* a dog obedience class, I was
petrified. Ben reminded me that, although I wasn't an "expert," I
certainly knew more about dog training than anyone else there that
night. <G> That's kind of what a "teacher" is, isn't it? Someone who
knows more than the "student"?

The funny thing is (to quote _Illusions_): "We teach best what we most
need to learn." Which is why I still write here almost every day.

So who's the real "teacher"?? <BWG>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

marji

At 20:01 2/22/2008, you wrote:
> > "I know from my own experience that there are certain
> > things people are never going to be *very* good at,
> > like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
> > a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
> > wiser and knows how to lead you through it.
>
>I wanted to go back to this -- it just isn't true.
>
>Both guitar playing and computer programming are things people often
>learn without someone leading them through it - they "play around"
>with it, they pay attention to what other people have done, they try
>stuff on their own, they have fun, they work at it and use a lot of
>trial and error.

I can totally vouch for this! I never took guitar lessons growing
up, and I can definitely get by in the instrument, and I've earned a
fair bit of money over the course of time playing guitar
professionally. Knowing what I know about myself, I think that
lessons might have actually hindered my natural explorations of the
instrument. The guitar fascinated me (still does), I made amazing
discoveries about the logic of the instrument, which led me to
discover music theory and physics. I know that for many people,
music theory can be a dry subject, but not for me!! I found it to be
incredible, full of metaphor and logic and beauty. Perhaps if it had
been rammed down my throat I couldn't have discovered its richness.

>That's kind of what a "teacher" is, isn't it? Someone who knows more
>than the "student"?

So, every Thursday night, I lead (more like hold a space for) a music
program for the Mexican migrant farmworker community. There are guys
who come every week and there are guys who come for a few weeks and
then move on. A lot of guys show up wanting to learn to play guitar,
so I help them as best I can to get started, if they want me
to. Last night, I saw this one guy showing a newcomer an exercise
that he had only just learned a few weeks earlier. So very, very cool!

~Marji







~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<http://www.joyfullyparenting.com/>Joyfully Parenting & Life Coaching
<http://zintz-kunkel.blogspot.com/>Our Unschooling Life (a 'blog)
Live Fully ~ Live JoyFully!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 20:46 2/22/2008, Marji wrote:

>...I can definitely get by in the instrument...


What a difference a letter can make! That should have been "I can
definitely get by ON the instrument." I've never actually tried to
get *in* it. My pick has, though. ;-)

Marji





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sfenom11

> -=-=-=-=-=-
> "Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Have you EVER read anything here that said that a child guides
himself?
> Is that what you husband thinks unschooling is?
> That may be the fundamental confusion.
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think that I need some clarification on this point, specifically
as it relates to my situation right now...
My DS (12.5yo) has been out of school now for 1.5 years. During this
time he's had no interest in leaving the house. Right now his day
consists mostly of playing XBox (mostly Oblivion or Circle of Doom)
and watching Family Guy DVD's. What types of things would you do to
expand his world and play a more active role in his day?
Also, my DH is against unschooling - how would you show DH that DS
is learning by playing video games all day?
Thanks,
Arlene

Daniel and Melin Magill

my oldest son plays xbox360 all day long, on most days. But for us he's learning lots, our son has xbox live so he's playing against other people of multiple ages, he's learning communication skills, virtual pen pals, he has friends all over the world many of whom are homeschooled. He's learning typing, critical thinking, strategic planning. In addition our kids personally we go to the YMCA where they swim, do weights, the girls take areboics classes, they play Y sports from time to tiem when a sport interest them, the girls do gymnastics. We also have all of our kids in boy/girl scouts. Through scouts alone they do all sorts of camping, science merits, history merits, art merits, a variety. we also go on field trips with our homeschool group at least one a month. We feel all this combine makes a perfectly well rounded education!!

melin
Miami Valley Homeschool Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MiamiValleyHomeschoolers/
----- Original Message -----
From: sfenom11
To: [email protected]
Sent: 02/23/2008 8:58 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Need some good answers for my husband


> -=-=-=-=-=-
> "Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Have you EVER read anything here that said that a child guides
himself?
> Is that what you husband thinks unschooling is?
> That may be the fundamental confusion.
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think that I need some clarification on this point, specifically
as it relates to my situation right now...
My DS (12.5yo) has been out of school now for 1.5 years. During this
time he's had no interest in leaving the house. Right now his day
consists mostly of playing XBox (mostly Oblivion or Circle of Doom)
and watching Family Guy DVD's. What types of things would you do to
expand his world and play a more active role in his day?
Also, my DH is against unschooling - how would you show DH that DS
is learning by playing video games all day?
Thanks,
Arlene






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 08:58 2/23/2008, you wrote:
>During this time he's had no interest in leaving the house. Right
>now his day consists mostly of playing XBox (mostly Oblivion or
>Circle of Doom) and watching Family Guy DVD's. What types of things
>would you do to
>expand his world and play a more active role in his day?


I would watch Family Guy with him. There are tons of things that
come up on those shows that are fun to talk about and laugh
about. By increasing your connection with him through these things
you can begin to get an idea of what other things will expand his
universe (Futurama, the Simpsons, et al. are also a lot of fun and
there is a ton of learning in each ~ verrrry educational!), and you
can suggest those things. Right now, the prospect of leaving the
house may not be more interesting than what he's doing at home. But,
what if you learned of, say, a Family Guy convention nearby? He'd
probably be into going to that. What else might that lead to for him?

Same with the video games. I support my son's interests in the
various video games he plays by getting him strategy guides (how he
learned to read), looking things up on the Internet for him when he
needs me to, posting questions in his behalf, helping him get more
games that are interesting to him.

My son, Liam, is really loving Guitar Hero right now, and it's
incredible how that has broadened his horizons, as well as what it's
done for his reading (musically and otherwise) and his
timing. Really cool! He goes between Guitar Hero, World of
Warcraft, Dragonball Z on the Wii, Pokemon on the DS, running around
outside. He is a happy, thriving person! (yay!!!)

By increasing your connection with your son through the things *he*
loves to do, you make your connection stronger and both of your lives
more interesting.

I hope that helps a little. I'm gonna let someone else field the
other question about your husband 'cause I'm *supposed* to be working
right now! ;-)

~Marji











~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<http://www.joyfullyparenting.com/>Joyfully Parenting & Life Coaching
<http://zintz-kunkel.blogspot.com/>Our Unschooling Life (a 'blog)
Live Fully ~ Live JoyFully!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: sfenom11 <sfenom11@...>


My DS (12.5yo) has been out of school now for 1.5 years. During this
time he's had no interest in leaving the house. Right now his day
consists mostly of playing XBox (mostly Oblivion or Circle of Doom)
and watching Family Guy DVD's. What types of things would you do to
expand his world and play a more active role in his day?

-=-=-=-=


Play WITH him. Show that*you* have an interest in what interests *him*.

After a year or so of this (or what SEEMS like a year or so!), he will
start reciprocating. But *you* will need to show him what that looks
like.

Please keep i n mind that, right now, he's healing from years of school
damage. He needs your support in this healing. The more support you can
give, the sooner he'll heal. The *less dupportive you are, the longer
it'll take.

-=-=-=-=-

Also, my DH is against unschooling - how would you show DH that DS
is learning by playing video games all day?

-=-=-=-=-

Make your husband play video games all day? <g>

If your husband is willing to see how difficult the games actually
ARE----by *playing* them---he'll be more likely to accept that they
aren't a waste of time. They really DO require focus and strategy and
skill.

ALso---a few books and an article, if he's willing to read:

Mark Prensky & Daniel Pink---two MEN (men tend to respect PhDs with
penises. <g>) who truly see the benefits *in this day and age* of
video games.

The article is here:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/16/050516crbo_books

Where are you? Can you make a conference this year? that would help
SOOO much!

~Kelly






~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

marji

At 14:43 2/23/2008, you wrote:
>Mark Prensky & Daniel Pink---two MEN (men tend to respect PhDs with
>penises. <g>)

What about PhDs with dildos? Nah, prolly not.



Marji (who's glad she swallowed her drink of water before she read that!)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

beanmommy2

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> > "I know from my own experience that there are certain
> > things people are never going to be *very* good at,
> > like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
> > a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
> > wiser and knows how to lead you through it.


> I wanted to go back to this -- it just isn't true.
>
> Both guitar playing and computer programming are things people
often
> learn without someone leading them through it - they "play around"
> with it, they pay attention to what other people have done, they
try
> stuff on their own, they have fun, they work at it and use a lot
of
> trial and error. But they most definitely do not need to have a
> "teacher" for these things. Sometimes they might choose to utilize
a
> teacher for part of their journey, but it truly isn't necessary.
>
> -pam


I would agree with you.

But here's where my husband's coming from:

He tried to play the piano for years as a teen, really liked it,
worked hard at it, even wanted to be a concert pianist! It wasn't til
years later that he realized he was mostly "spinning his wheels" all
those years. He didn't any have any real direction, didn't realize
how lacking his skills were and what skills he would need to even
come CLOSE to CONSIDERING being a classical pianist. (For example, he
had never played a scale, doesn't know how to tell what key a piece
is in, and had never memorized a piece.)

And he feels like he wasted a LOT of time and energy, in an area that
REALLY interested him, because he didn't have somebody knowledgable
guide him. [He had a teacher, but not a very skilled one, although
both he and his parents thought the teacher was great; they didn't
know any better.]

Similar experience for him in computer programmer. He learned on-the-
job, and yes, he can do it, but he's had many periods of banging his
head against a wall and going in circles for a LONG time trying
to "connect the dots" in a way that, he claims, wouldn't have been
elusive to him had he gotten his degree in Computer Science and gone
through all that coursework.

So partly because of this two experiences, he believes that learning
through playing around, trial and error, trying stuff on his own, is
actually MORE frustrating, LESS efficient, and wastes a lot of time
and energy, than structured, thought-out instruction.

Jenny

Karen Swanay

Did he really waste a lot of time? Did he not enjoy the process of
playing? The time spent "banging" on the keys? I guess I've never
thought I've wasted my time during a pleasurable pursuit. I draw, I
enjoy it. I'm not good at it. I do cartoon stuff. But it's not a
waste of my time if it brings me joy. Can I make a living at it? No.
Not with the skill set I have now, but if I wanted to, I could seek a
qualified teacher (and I would know who that was now as an adult but
not as a child) and learn and then attempt to use it as a job, but
somehow I think *having* to do it, for someone else, to their
standards and on a deadline would take the fun out of it. In fact I
know it would, because I write too...and when I write for the joy of
it I do enjoy it. But when I'm on a deadline and dealing with editors
it's not as much fun. Anyway, I guess I think your husband didn't
waste his time because he enjoyed it. Just because he's not making a
living at it doesn't mean he shouldn't still mess around playing the
piano. We can't all be superstars in everything but that shouldn't
stop us from enjoying messing around with it. Whether that be
football, drawing, piano, or whatnot.

Karen

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:05 PM, beanmommy2 <beanmommy2@...> wrote:

>
> I would agree with you.
>
> But here's where my husband's coming from:

> And he feels like he wasted a LOT of time and energy, in an area that
> REALLY interested him, because he didn't have somebody knowledgable
> guide him. [He had a teacher, but not a very skilled one, although
> both he and his parents thought the teacher was great; they didn't
> know any better.]
> Jenny

John Lee Clark

Dear Jenny:

I don't know everything about your husband's experiences with music and
computers, but it may be worthwhile to observe that he has not yet
experienced structured instruction in these two areas. So how does he know
that he would have accomplished more if he had gone through with a degree or
whatever?

For my own part, I have met with great success in publishing poetry, in
spite of�or rather because of�zero formal training or guidance in this area.
Nobody taught me anything, and I still don't know anything about poetic
forms, what rhymes and what doesn't, etc. I just played around. Yes, a lot
of my work in the beginning was very bad, but I am convinced that if anyone
had tried to "guide" me during this stage, it would have either destroyed
the fun in it or it would have limited my later success, for though it may
have weaned me of the junk and directed me to make more sense, how much
would I be able to accomplish creatively in that direction? Maybe nice,
sensible, and solid work, but nowhere near the spectacular and original
poetry I did that won much recognition�for example, getting published in
POETRY, many fellowships, and being broadcast on Martha Stewart. And I
never did take a single class in composition, let alone poetry writing!

So I can certainly vouch for playing around.

John




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 23, 2008, at 4:05 PM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> And he feels like he wasted a LOT of time and energy, in an area that
> REALLY interested him, because he didn't have somebody knowledgable
> guide him. [He had a teacher, but not a very skilled one, although
> both he and his parents thought the teacher was great; they didn't
> know any better.]

Maybe it's my personality, but I've always been a skeptic. I tend to
compare what I'm being taught against the real world and question the
rightness of the teacher.

I'm not saying that in an "I'm superior" way, but it's a good thing
to examine why there weren't clues over the years for your husband
and his parents.

It could be personality, especially if his parents are the same way.

It could be school had taught him to believe a teacher without question.

So what was the answer? Not the teacher, I think, but the ability of
the student to question himself and his world.

That's why schools are a dangerous place! The whole point is "Sit
down, shut up, do what I tell you without question and you'll end up
where experts think it's best you be." It's a lie. Obviously from
your husband's experience.

> Similar experience for him in computer programmer. He learned on-the-
> job, and yes, he can do it, but he's had many periods of banging his
> head against a wall and going in circles for a LONG time trying
> to "connect the dots" in a way that, he claims, wouldn't have been
> elusive to him had he gotten his degree in Computer Science and gone
> through all that coursework.

Or he could have had teachers like his piano teacher.

He *thinks* school would have straightened out his confusion. He
doesn't know that.

Just ask the thousands of kids graduating from public school who are
still confused after 12 years whether school is a cure for confusion!

I've always learned best by plunging in and doing. When I have a
question, I hunt resources (including other people) for answers,
tried various things until I found an answer.

Again, the question is, why didn't that work for him?

One reason might be that it's antithetical to school learning for
kids to learn how to solve problems on their own. Kids are there in
school to memorize the right answers and the right methods. Real life
isn't like that. Questions are messy and there actually might be
dozens of right answers with varying degrees of good and bad points
to them.

Which is why school isn't a great place to learn how to learn!

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: beanmommy2 <beanmommy2@...>

He tried to play the piano for years as a teen, really liked it,
worked hard at it, even wanted to be a concert pianist! It wasn't til
years later that he realized he was mostly "spinning his wheels" all
those years. He didn't any have any real direction, didn't realize
how lacking his skills were and what skills he would need to even
come CLOSE to CONSIDERING being a classical pianist. (For example, he
had never played a scale, doesn't know how to tell what key a piece
is in, and had never memorized a piece.)

-==-=-=-

Sooooo---because he worked hard at it (although not so hard as to learn
to play a scale, understand what key a piece is in, OR memorize a piece
of music??!! ), he assumed he could be a concert pianist???

I know there were/are kids in high school that think they can be
professional basketball players and think that, if they are better than
the few guys in the neighborhood, they can be the next Michael Jordan.
Maybe so, but most realize that it takes a lot of *talent* as well as
hard work to get to that point. They eventually come to know that they
aren't that good OR they go on to pursue it harder and closer and find
bigger and better venues/coaches/opportunities.

I guess my questions would be: How come he thought his skills were so
high? Did someone lead him to believe that? Did he not listen to/watch
big name pianists? Whom was he comparing himself to? What opportunities
did he have to explore piano?

I know I had the *talent* (as well as the desire) to try out for the
Olympics. I felt there were other obstacles. School was one. (Go
figure! <G>) Moving away from home at 16 was another. There was no
guarantee that I would have made it, but looking back---it would have
been nice to go for it. <g> But there were bigger names in the sport
who felt I should have the opportunity. I didn't "make that up" because
I wanted it---*others* in the sport came to me.

-=-=-=-=-=-

And he feels like he wasted a LOT of time and energy, in an area that
REALLY interested him, because he didn't have somebody knowledgable
guide him. [He had a teacher, but not a very skilled one, although
both he and his parents thought the teacher was great; they didn't
know any better.]

-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm sorry to hear he felt that he wasted his time and energy.

The time I spent at my sport was HUGE. It shaped me like nothing else
---other than maybe becoming a parent---ever has. Involving myself in a
passion---any passion---has been important in becoming Who I Am.

Also---I didn't take one person's word for anything. I looked for
different trainers. In fact, at one point, I had a different coach for
each day of the week! <G> They each had a specialty and a different way
to approach the same problem, and it was good for me to try different
tactics. I used what worked for me and enjoyed the novelty of the
different trainers and their abilities. ANd I worked HARD for each of
them.

I've encouraged both my boys to immerse themselves in their passions
wholly and fully. Cameron's interests in magic, baseball, soccer,
skateboarding, film-making, drumming, cooking, and now outdoor
leadership/camping/backpacking---not a MINUTE of those passions has
been wasted. Each as given him a huge sense of Who He Is and what he
can accomplish. He has learned skills and abilities he didn't know. If
he never plays another game of baseball or never does another magic
trick (and he was GOOD!!!) or makes another film---all those things
have been essential to Who He Is Now. I hope he never thinks of that
time as wasted.

I also encourage them to meet as many different ways to approach their
passions. When Cam was playing drums, he explored the djembe, bamboo
drums, Scottish pipe and drums corps, jazz, blues, and funk. Danny was
his main instructor, but Cameron worked with other bigger names in
drumming when he'd meet them---just asked for an hour of their time.
People LOVE to share their passions---and when they find a young person
(or even an OLD person! <G>) with the same passion, they are THRILLED
to share what they know. I mean---*beyond* thrilled!

-=-=-=-=-=-

Similar experience for him in computer programmer. He learned on-the-
job, and yes, he can do it, but he's had many periods of banging his
head against a wall and going in circles for a LONG time trying
to "connect the dots" in a way that, he claims, wouldn't have been
elusive to him had he gotten his degree in Computer Science and gone
through all that coursework.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm afraid that almost anything that's new and worth learning---and
especially something that's difficult!---requires a lot of
head-banging. <BWG>

Of course, I know several computer programmers who learned without
getting a degree in Computer Science. What about them?

Did he never think to *ask* a more knowledgeable person for help?? Or
did he just sit there trying to figure it out for himself?

There's a LOT to be said for figuring it out by yourself, but
sometimes, there's just no need to reinvent the wheel.

-=-=-=-=-=-

So partly because of this two experiences, he believes that learning
through playing around, trial and error, trying stuff on his own, is
actually MORE frustrating, LESS efficient, and wastes a lot of time
and energy, than structured, thought-out instruction.

-=-=-=-=-

Sometimes. But if so, why didn't he seek out more help?

Each person learns best in his own way. It's a good idea to know what
works for you.

I like a lot of information but not so much direction. I usually gather
as much information on a subject as I can and then work my way through
it as best I can. I make mistakes (we call them learning-takes) and
learn from them, and then I fix those mistakes and go on. Sometimes
that's frustrating, but I can choose to keep doing it or quit. Other
people prefer more hand-holding. It's really about what works for *you*.

Your husband can't decide what works for your son. Only your son can
make that decision. But that takes trial and error---to find what works
for each individual. And that may change as we grow and learn and get
older. It helps to be open to what works for us at the time. <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark V Fullerton <markvictorfullerton@...>


I think the role of facilitator rather than teacher comes somewhat
more naturally to women than to men, to whom it may at first appear
purely passive. For men it may be easier to agree that there is a
difference between leadership and dictatorship. Then the question
becomes: how to put that distinction to work in practice?

-=-=-=-=-

I would be willing to discuss this further if you could clarify what
you mean.

I'm trying to find an angle to come at it from. <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

Pamela Sorooshian

Gotcha. I understand.

Did his parents know what he was trying to do? Did they not help him?
Fill him in on what he would need to do to become a concert pianist?
Did he refuse to have a teacher? Why would he refuse help?

This is why the role of the unschooling parent is SO important - we're
there to help our kids achieve their goals, right? If he was an
unschooler, his parents would be taking him to concerts, introducing
him to concert pianists, making sure he had lots of access to full
information, and so on.

Or - it is pretty odd that he worked that hard, loved it so much, had
such concrete plans, but never asked to take a lesson, never looked
into what it takes to actually become a concert pianist? Maybe he DID
know, deep down, that he wasn't really preparing to be a concert
pianist, but he just loved playing and it somehow justified the time
spent on it if he claimed to want to be a concert pianist. (Just a
wild guess, but I've heard this before.)

-pam

On Feb 23, 2008, at 1:05 PM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> He tried to play the piano for years as a teen, really liked it,
> worked hard at it, even wanted to be a concert pianist! It wasn't til
> years later that he realized he was mostly "spinning his wheels" all
> those years. He didn't any have any real direction, didn't realize
> how lacking his skills were and what skills he would need to even
> come CLOSE to CONSIDERING being a classical pianist. (For example, he
> had never played a scale, doesn't know how to tell what key a piece
> is in, and had never memorized a piece.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Gray

I think it's interesting that he *had* a teacher for piano, and still
feels this way. To me it says that even having an instructor does not
guarantee anything, especially if one is still looking at learning
from a schooled perspective. I know many unschooled kids who would
have *felt* something was wrong and advocated for a different
instructor, or a new method.

Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/




On Feb 23, 2008, at 3:05 PM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> [He had a teacher, but not a very skilled one, although
> both he and his parents thought the teacher was great; they didn't
> know any better.]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesley Cross

"So partly because of this two experiences, he believes that learning
through playing around, trial and error, trying stuff on his own, is
actually MORE frustrating, LESS efficient, and wastes a lot of time
and energy, than structured, thought-out instruction."



I'm not quite understanding the argument here, because it seems to me he's
proving your point.



First of all, if someone told him he needed further instruction to reach his
goals would he have pursued it? Why did he never look into what it takes to
become a concert pianist? When he found out that his instruction hadn't
prepared him, why didn't he find what he needed? What is stopping him from
pursuing that as a career now, or at least continuing to enjoy playing the
piano?



No one is saying "because we're unschoolers we can't seek out structured,
thought-out instruction". As unschoolers, I'd say we're more equipped to
look for exactly what we want and find it. Its all about taking back your
own power; getting a second opinion, finding what works for *you* (or our
kids finding what works for them, with our help, a role that our parents
weren't prepared to fill but that we can fill for our kids because we have
resources like books, email lists, websites, etc.).



Also, choosing to seek out structured, thought-out instruction is a
completely different world from having structured, thought-out instruction
imposed upon you. I would argue that the only people who benefit fully from
formal instruction are those who have chosen that instruction freely. To
devote yourself to something is not the same thing as someone else devoting
you to that activity without your input. Or even the same as saying "so
you want to be a piano player? Well, here's your teacher, do what she says
and you'll learn how."



There are many different learning styles, and "structured, thought-out
instruction" can take many, many different forms- all of them valid and
useful for different people. Just because one approach, teacher, or
teaching method doesn't work for a particular learner it is not an
indication that the learner is incapable of achieving a higher level of
skill, and it also doesn't prove that the particular approach, teacher, or
teaching method is a failure. It's just not the right match between the
learner and what they want out of their experience.



It looks to me that you're seeing "one right way" thinking. Your dh is
stuck in the place where he thinks there must be one right way to do or
learn things- the BEST way. The thing is, we live in a world of infinite
possibilities. We just need to open ourselves up to seeing all of them.
And what is best for one person isn't necessarily the best for someone else.




Sorry if this isn't as coherent as it could be.I have a 3yo jumping up and
down on me asking to play Webkinz- makes it hard for me to focus! So I'm
off to play.



Lesley

In SC w. Logan (ds13), Ayden (dd7) and Alethia (dd3)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

beanmommy2

--- In [email protected], "Lesley Cross" <lcross@...>
wrote:

> "So partly because of this two experiences, he believes that
learning
> through playing around, trial and error, trying stuff on his own, is
> actually MORE frustrating, LESS efficient, and wastes a lot of time
> and energy, than structured, thought-out instruction."

> I'm not quite understanding the argument here, because it seems to
me he's
> proving your point.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but rather be able to understand
and respond to him ...

It's the idea of having the right "tools."

Someone else had posted, "Was it really a waste of time? Didn't he
enjoy playing?"

Well, he probably did (and still does), but he feels like he was
trying to accomplish something and just spent a LOT of time going
around in circles. And he COULD have at least come a lot closer to
accomplishing what he wanted (a flawless Rachmaninoff piece, for
example, even if he didn't have a career as a musician) -- had he
just been shown and given the proper tools.

An analogy he gave me is that if you're trying to learn something -
say, woodworking, which he has done -- where there is a finished
product in mind, and you're spending hours and hours and failed
attempt after failed attempt trying to get a straight corner, and
it's driving you crazy ... and then, somehow, you learn about a tool
(I think in this case it's called a jig.)

And you go, "Oh my gosh! With this proper tool, I can make the corner
FLAWLESSLY in just a few minutes with little effort! I wasted SO MUCH
TIME trying to do it myself without this simple tool! It's a GOOD
THING I found out about jigs, or else I've be wasting weekend after
weekend trying to get that corner straight, and there's NO REASON to
have to work so hard or be so frustrated ... you just have to have
the RIGHT TOOLS!"

So he's afraid our kids are not going to get all the "tools" they
need for all kinds of things in life if I don't sit down and show
them how to write their letters correctly, etc etc.

Jenny

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 24, 2008, at 4:33 PM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> Well, he probably did (and still does), but he feels like he was
> trying to accomplish something and just spent a LOT of time going
> around in circles. And he COULD have at least come a lot closer to
> accomplishing what he wanted (a flawless Rachmaninoff piece, for
> example, even if he didn't have a career as a musician) -- had he
> just been shown and given the proper tools.

I totally understand. He had a lousy teacher and he, himself, didn't
have the kind of personal initiative that an unschooler would
typically have, to realize he had a lousy teacher and go out and get
the information on his own. He's resentful - and understandably so. He
believed his teacher would tell him everything he needed to know.

One thing I've noticed is that the unschooled kids view teachers as
resources, not as all-knowing experts to be totally depended upon to
provide all possible or all necessary information.

I'd tell him that he's right that there are times that it makes a lot
more sense to utilize an expert who can help you organize your
approach to learning something. For sure. Especially as what we want
to learn gets more specific and more goal-oriented.

But, most younger children learn most things better if they more or
less construct their own knowledge in an environment that is rich and
stimulating and with supportive adults who pay close attention and
interact and help.

He may be picturing kids just playing around without any guidance or
support - that's not unschooling.

My daughter wants to be a professional actress. She spent years
playing around with acting as a young child, with support in the form
of going to LOTS of shows, being provided lots of chances to play with
other kids who also liked putting on shows, being provided with lots
of costume materials and prop materials, and chances to perform when
she wanted to do that. As she got older, we worked together to figure
out what kind of acting workshops or lessons or classes or other
experiences would be good for her to pursue. I learned a whole lot
about acting schools, performance groups, how to pursue a career in
the performing arts, colleges and vocational schools, internships,
scholarships, private and group lessons, and on and on, and passed
information on to her.

If he'd been my unschooling son, he wouldn't have been in the dark
about what was needed - I'd have helped him and he'd have pursued the
information. For sure.

-pam







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~"So partly because of this two experiences, he believes that
learning through playing around, trial and error, trying stuff on his
own, is actually MORE frustrating, LESS efficient, and wastes a lot of
time and energy, than structured, thought-out instruction."~~

It's a lot easier to blame a teacher (or lack therof) for some
perceived failure, rather than look within. That's what the schooled
mentality creates in human beings. When a mind has been schooled
properly, that person gives credit to teachers for success and blames
teachers for perceived failures. Sounds like he's been well-schooled!;)

As to older unschoolers....my oldest is 18. He's starting to travel on
his own now (a kiddo that hated to travel, got sick on every airplane
and was fearful of traveling without his parents). Took a bus ride to
visit his girlfriend two weeks ago and just got back home. The very
first exam he ever took in his life was voluntary, a college exam
actually.:)
He sits in on Moira's college courses when he visits her and took the
political science exam one time, just fer fun. He did better than most
of the kids in the class without having studied the materials.

He's a logical guy. Looks at issues from lots of viewpoints and
reasons things out in a very intelligent manner. I learn a lot from
him. Trevor knows more about computers and technology than most of the
"tech support" people we talk to. He's not the kind of person that is
in the spotlight, or doing some grand-looking thing or wears some
label of "success" according to most of the world.

He's thoughtful, intelligent, well-spoken and capable. He trusts his
own abilities more than I ever did at that age. He struggles with his
own issues too, just like any human. He'll also tell you that
unschooling was the best way for him to learn and grow. He's very
grateful for his free life and I can see the results in a beautiful,
brilliant and strong human being that is quite comfortable in his own
skin. What more could a parent want for their child?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Lesley Cross

"An analogy he gave me is that if you're trying to learn something -
say, woodworking, which he has done -- where there is a finished
product in mind, and you're spending hours and hours and failed
attempt after failed attempt trying to get a straight corner, and
it's driving you crazy ... and then, somehow, you learn about a tool
(I think in this case it's called a jig.)

And you go, "Oh my gosh! With this proper tool, I can make the corner
FLAWLESSLY in just a few minutes with little effort! I wasted SO MUCH
TIME trying to do it myself without this simple tool! It's a GOOD
THING I found out about jigs, or else I've be wasting weekend after
weekend trying to get that corner straight, and there's NO REASON to
have to work so hard or be so frustrated ... you just have to have
the RIGHT TOOLS!""



The thing is, the unschooling mindset would have a woodworker going "hmmm,
there should be a tool that makes this easy", and then the unschooling
woodworker would ask around, do some research, and discover that indeed this
tool exists and learn how to use it through whatever means were available
and fit him, whether that be an online tutorial, a book, a tv show, or being
shown how to by someone who knows. Or, if the tool didn't exist, perhaps
this woodworker would say "this seems like it should exist" and figure out
how to create such a tool- again, using a variety of resources that are at
the disposal of anyone who cares to look for them. As unschooling parents
its our job to let our kids explore and provide support when its needed- so
if the woodworker were a child, the parent would be responsible for saying
"wow, that looks difficult, do you want some help looking for a way that is
less frustrating?" or just doing some research and finding out for them,
then offering the information.



It is never too late to find the tools you need to do something you want to
do. But you need to take personal responsibility for your learning in order
to do it. If a learner is going to sit and wait for a teacher to hand them
everything they need, they very well may not get what they need at all.
Which is what your dh's piano story illustrates rather vividly.



As Pam said though, young children do tend to learn more through exploration
than through being shown exactly what to do. It's a developmental
difference between children and adults (whether young or more mature) .
With my own kids I have noticed that even though they sometimes appear to
need to "reinvent the wheel", rejecting suggestions or new information
initially, their learning has so much more depth than if they had just
automatically adopted new information or taken suggestions.



Lesley









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mom3511

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sfenom11 <sfenom11@...>
>
>
> My DS (12.5yo) has been out of school now for 1.5 years. During this
> time he's had no interest in leaving the house. Right now his day
> consists mostly of playing XBox (mostly Oblivion or Circle of Doom)
> and watching Family Guy DVD's. What types of things would you do to
> expand his world and play a more active role in his day?
>
> -=-=-=-=
>
>
> Play WITH him. Show that*you* have an interest in what interests
*him*.
>
> After a year or so of this (or what SEEMS like a year or so!), he
will
> start reciprocating. But *you* will need to show him what that
looks
> like.
>
> Please keep i n mind that, right now, he's healing from years of
school
> damage. He needs your support in this healing. The more support you
can
> give, the sooner he'll heal. The *less dupportive you are, the
longer
> it'll take.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Also, my DH is against unschooling - how would you show DH that DS
> is learning by playing video games all day?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Make your husband play video games all day? <g>
>
> If your husband is willing to see how difficult the games actually
> ARE----by *playing* them---he'll be more likely to accept that they
> aren't a waste of time. They really DO require focus and strategy
and
> skill.
>
> ALso---a few books and an article, if he's willing to read:
>
> Mark Prensky & Daniel Pink---two MEN (men tend to respect PhDs with
> penises. <g>) who truly see the benefits *in this day and age* of
> video games.
>
> The article is here:
>
> http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/16/050516crbo_books
>
> Where are you? Can you make a conference this year? that would help
> SOOO much!
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>
Kelly,
My DS is almost 14. We took him out of school in May 2007. At first,
we tried the school thing at home. You know, a math workbook etc..
Quickly discovered, NOT! He also almost exclusively plays xbox. He
doesn't wish for me to play with him(right now anyway) he does
however (more and more so) talk with me about it. He also doesn't
wish to leave the house very often.
One thing I found is it's okay to talk with him about my feelings and
thoughts and it leads to him talking more also about his. This is new
to both of us.
Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement from all, as I've been
a "lurker" for some time. Often I felt I was the only one
experiencing these feelings, anxieties, etc.. Thanks.