swissarmy_wife

My mom had always believed that girls and boys should be separated a
certain age. As soon as they started to discover there bodies I think
was her idea. When she asked what I would do if I had a girl (I'm
pregnant) and I told her the younger ones could share a bedroom she
FREAKED. The younger one is a boy.

So here's my dilemma. My son happens to get along with girls quite
well. He recently met a new friend at play practice. She is his
equal in energy, silliness, and volume! I would love to see them
play! She is a public school student and I haven't yet met her
parents. (she's 10 and my son is 9)

A few times that he has played with girls, we have witnessed them
being curious. Showing butts and lifting shirts and that sort of
innocent play. The first time was so innocent and I feel that I never
should have said ANYTHING to her parents. They were mad and wouldn't
let her play for a long time. By the time they would, the they had
grown apart from not seeing each other. The second time was with
girls I may not have wanted him to play with. Or at at least
unsupervised. But it did happen. We had a nice talk about it. He is
really open with me which is nice.

I know that this stuff comes up from time to time. But him being my
oldest its all new to me. What if it happens again? Am I supposed to
try and prevent it? I'm not sure I want to encourage it. But i don't
want anyone thinking its wrong.

I really have a very skewed version of sexuality and what is normal
and healthy for children. I become very uncomfortable when there are
sexual scenes in movies and on TV (in regards to my son). He does not
know what sex is. Or sexuality. Do i introduce it? Or wait for him
to ask? He asked once, and his father told him it was whether you
were a male or female. He seemed satisfied, but I'm not sure its what
he was looking for. Should sexuality be a regular topic? and how do
I do this without shocking him right from the get go.

Unschooling comes pretty easily to me. But unschooling sex and
sexuality??? This is a hard one for me!

Thanks for any help.

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
>
> A few times that he has played with girls, we have witnessed them
> being curious. Showing butts and lifting shirts and that sort of
> innocent play. The first time was so innocent and I feel that I never
> should have said ANYTHING to her parents. They were mad and wouldn't
> let her play for a long time. By the time they would, the they had
> grown apart from not seeing each other. The second time was with
> girls I may not have wanted him to play with. Or at at least
> unsupervised. But it did happen. We had a nice talk about it. He is
> really open with me which is nice.
>

I think you have to know that at some point this behavior become
criminal- its cute and innocent when they are naked babies crawling
around or curious when they are potty training but I think 10 is too old

are they lifting their shirts because they are playing house and
feeding babbies or is it a i will show you mine sort of thing?

I would explain long before this but now is good as time as any to say
boys and girls have different bodies and we do not show each other what
our privates look like

explain to this girls parents that you have talked about this with him
and will NOT leave them alone to be sure they are not playing show and
tell

Julie

swissarmy_wife

Whoa! Criminal?! Seriously? For children getting curious about each
others bodies? He's not a predator. I hope I didn't make him sound
like that! I'll have to go back and read that. I was explaining that
there have been a few times in the past where there has been some
curious play. I was more interested in helping my son develop a
healthy view of his body and sexuality rather than tell him he was a
criminal for looking at a girls butt when she showed him.

Aren't kids curious? Isn't there a way to help them through this
stuff without telling them they are wrong? I think a lot of kids
might hide this stuff from their parents if they were told it was
criminal or wrong. I'd like to help make his own decisions in
situations like this. I really don't feel he made any mistakes.
There was just some peeking going on.

We have definitely talked about it! It happened at age 6 and at age
8. Initiated (admittedly) both times by the girls. I didn't have a
problem discussing it with them at the time. I just don't understand
how to talk to him now that he is getting older, and wondering "why
girls get filmed naked on TV" He was referring to a lotion ad where
the lady was wrapped in bubbles and ribbon or something.

Also, we still somewhat limit movies and are moving toward not. (I
learned with video games to take it easy and just start saying yes
more. When I "let go" of video games all at once I had created what
Sandra Dodd explained to me as a wild party atmosphere. Ahhh.... live
and learn.) It's totally me, I'm uncomfortable with it. Give me
action and violence any day, but I'm so uncomfortable with sex. I
really need help handling the questions that could come up. If feel
that if I all of the sudden let him start viewing things that he never
has he might get the wrong idea, rather quickly.

BTW - I would like to clarify. When I said my view on a healthy
sexuality for kids for skewed I meant skewed in a "no one ever talked
about it in my house" way.

I'm also very aware that I'm being way too wordy. Sorry about that. :-)


>
> I think you have to know that at some point this behavior become
> criminal- its cute and innocent when they are naked babies crawling
> around or curious when they are potty training but I think 10 is too old
>
> are they lifting their shirts because they are playing house and
> feeding babbies or is it a i will show you mine sort of thing?
>
> I would explain long before this but now is good as time as any to say
> boys and girls have different bodies and we do not show each other what
> our privates look like
>
> explain to this girls parents that you have talked about this with him
> and will NOT leave them alone to be sure they are not playing show and
> tell
>
> Julie
>

Karen Swanay

Yes actually criminal. At your son's age he could be questioned by
the police if the parent of a girl complained. It's happening all
over our country. Boys are looked at like predators in training. If
that happens, then Child Protective Services will get involved because
your child is hyper-sexualized and it must be because he's being
abused by his parents or neglected and watching porn on the computer.
Seriously. This is not an exaggeration. It happened to a friend of
mine in Tuscon with her 8 yr old. The girl initiated it but he got in
trouble because in any conflict of this nature the one with the penis
is the aggressor. Never underestimate the stupidity of the
government.

I don't know how to answer the rest of your questions but the poster
that said criminal is right. You have to be so careful now especially
at your son's age. Sad isn't it?

Karen

On Feb 19, 2008 7:12 AM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Whoa! Criminal?! Seriously? For children getting curious about each
> others bodies? He's not a predator. I hope I didn't make him sound
> like that! I'll have to go back and read that. I was explaining that
> there have been a few times in the past where there has been some
> curious play. I was more interested in helping my son develop a
> healthy view of his body and sexuality rather than tell him he was a
> criminal for looking at a girls butt when she showed him.

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> Whoa! Criminal?! Seriously? For children getting curious about
each
> others bodies?
YOUR ARE RIGHT> KIDS ARE CURIOUS AND THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM
PREDITORS or criminals. It makes them normal.

Learning healthy sexuality is part of growing up.

Playing doctor with kids happens. It is not molestation or should not
even be shame based.. AT ALL!

The time it crosses is when someone does not want to show any parts.
When someone chooses not to participate and is forced or coerced into
doing that .

I think a bit of redirection if you walk in on something is a good
plan.

Sex comes with tons of responsibility. Kids need to talk about sex
with their parents. Just like we talk about everything else with our
kids. They need to make a plan and think about what their sexual
choices are.

I think talking to your son openly is your best plan. There is also a
book that lives on our shelves it is called "ITS PERFECTLY NORMAL".
My kids look at it, put it back and then check it out again.

Sexuality is like most growing up. It is a developmental process that
should not be shrouded in shame, but handled developmentally. When
our kid asks why a car runs. We may answer because it has an engine.
We do not explain pistons and gears etc. When our kids ask what is
the difference between boys and girls that answers should be
delelopmental. Follow their lead for more information.

If you observe something that needs talking about, by all means talk
about it.

It is kids who are not talking about it that are crossing the line
because no one has shared with them anything about responsible sexual
behavior. Not in a lecture way, but in an informational way.

I can feel my hackles getting up and my soap box coming out, but I
really think the reason we have so much sexual depravation in our
culture is because we advertize it everywhere and then we put a big
stamp of shame on it in regular conversation. WTF> Kids need answers
and information and they will be exploring. That is how god willing
they will become sexually healthy adults.

STEPPING OFF THE BOX>>

Kathleen



> Aren't kids curious? Isn't there a way to help them through this
> stuff without telling them they are wrong? I think a lot of kids
> might hide this stuff from their parents if they were told it was
> criminal or wrong. I'd like to help make his own decisions in
> situations like this. I really don't feel he made any mistakes.
> There was just some peeking going on.
>
> We have definitely talked about it! It happened at age 6 and at
age
> 8. Initiated (admittedly) both times by the girls. I didn't have
a
> problem discussing it with them at the time. I just don't
understand
> how to talk to him now that he is getting older, and wondering "why
> girls get filmed naked on TV" He was referring to a lotion ad where
> the lady was wrapped in bubbles and ribbon or something.
>
> Also, we still somewhat limit movies and are moving toward not. (I
> learned with video games to take it easy and just start saying yes
> more. When I "let go" of video games all at once I had created what
> Sandra Dodd explained to me as a wild party atmosphere. Ahhh....
live
> and learn.) It's totally me, I'm uncomfortable with it. Give me
> action and violence any day, but I'm so uncomfortable with sex. I
> really need help handling the questions that could come up. If feel
> that if I all of the sudden let him start viewing things that he
never
> has he might get the wrong idea, rather quickly.
>
> BTW - I would like to clarify. When I said my view on a healthy
> sexuality for kids for skewed I meant skewed in a "no one ever
talked
> about it in my house" way.
>
> I'm also very aware that I'm being way too wordy. Sorry about
that. :-)
>
>
> >
> > I think you have to know that at some point this behavior become
> > criminal- its cute and innocent when they are naked babies
crawling
> > around or curious when they are potty training but I think 10 is
too old
> >
> > are they lifting their shirts because they are playing house and
> > feeding babbies or is it a i will show you mine sort of thing?
> >
> > I would explain long before this but now is good as time as any
to say
> > boys and girls have different bodies and we do not show each
other what
> > our privates look like
> >
> > explain to this girls parents that you have talked about this
with him
> > and will NOT leave them alone to be sure they are not playing
show and
> > tell
> >
> > Julie
> >
>

swissarmy_wife

Thanks. I appreciate your reply. I have the book "where did I come
from" from when I was a kid. The book is so hilarious I can barely
get through it without dying laughing at the pictures! I'll have to
take a look at the book you mentioned.



--- In [email protected], "Kathleen Gehrke"
<gehrkes@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
> <heatherbean@> wrote:
> >
> > Whoa! Criminal?! Seriously? For children getting curious about
> each
> > others bodies?
> YOUR ARE RIGHT> KIDS ARE CURIOUS AND THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM
> PREDITORS or criminals. It makes them normal.
>
> Learning healthy sexuality is part of growing up.
>
> Playing doctor with kids happens. It is not molestation or should not
> even be shame based.. AT ALL!
>
> The time it crosses is when someone does not want to show any parts.
> When someone chooses not to participate and is forced or coerced into
> doing that .
>
> I think a bit of redirection if you walk in on something is a good
> plan.
>
> Sex comes with tons of responsibility. Kids need to talk about sex
> with their parents. Just like we talk about everything else with our
> kids. They need to make a plan and think about what their sexual
> choices are.
>
> I think talking to your son openly is your best plan. There is also a
> book that lives on our shelves it is called "ITS PERFECTLY NORMAL".
> My kids look at it, put it back and then check it out again.
>
> Sexuality is like most growing up. It is a developmental process that
> should not be shrouded in shame, but handled developmentally. When
> our kid asks why a car runs. We may answer because it has an engine.
> We do not explain pistons and gears etc. When our kids ask what is
> the difference between boys and girls that answers should be
> delelopmental. Follow their lead for more information.
>
> If you observe something that needs talking about, by all means talk
> about it.
>
> It is kids who are not talking about it that are crossing the line
> because no one has shared with them anything about responsible sexual
> behavior. Not in a lecture way, but in an informational way.
>
> I can feel my hackles getting up and my soap box coming out, but I
> really think the reason we have so much sexual depravation in our
> culture is because we advertize it everywhere and then we put a big
> stamp of shame on it in regular conversation. WTF> Kids need answers
> and information and they will be exploring. That is how god willing
> they will become sexually healthy adults.
>
> STEPPING OFF THE BOX>>
>
> Kathleen
>

Jodi Bezzola

I had that book too! :o) There is also the next one in the series that is called "What's Happening To Me", all about puberty. The pictures are funny, but it actually was great for me at the time (around 10) because it showed in a light way that there are *all* different types of bodies. For instance there are pictures of all different shapes, sizes and positioning of breasts, and some of them are so ridiculous that mine seemed perfectly okay after looking at those pictures.

You mentioned that you are "so uncomfortable with sex"...perhaps take a look at that? Be willing to explore your history, etc. about that?? I know that I have often been grateful for how matter-of-fact my mom was about the whole sex thing when I was younger, and I'm sure kids pick up as much from our own history/energy about an issue as from our words, and perhaps more. Just a thought.

Jodi

swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
Thanks. I appreciate your reply. I have the book "where did I come
from" from when I was a kid. The book is so hilarious I can barely
get through it without dying laughing at the pictures! I'll have to
take a look at the book you mentioned.

--- In [email protected], "Kathleen Gehrke"
<gehrkes@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
> <heatherbean@> wrote:
> >
> > Whoa! Criminal?! Seriously? For children getting curious about
> each
> > others bodies?
> YOUR ARE RIGHT> KIDS ARE CURIOUS AND THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM
> PREDITORS or criminals. It makes them normal.
>
> Learning healthy sexuality is part of growing up.
>
> Playing doctor with kids happens. It is not molestation or should not
> even be shame based.. AT ALL!
>
> The time it crosses is when someone does not want to show any parts.
> When someone chooses not to participate and is forced or coerced into
> doing that .
>
> I think a bit of redirection if you walk in on something is a good
> plan.
>
> Sex comes with tons of responsibility. Kids need to talk about sex
> with their parents. Just like we talk about everything else with our
> kids. They need to make a plan and think about what their sexual
> choices are.
>
> I think talking to your son openly is your best plan. There is also a
> book that lives on our shelves it is called "ITS PERFECTLY NORMAL".
> My kids look at it, put it back and then check it out again.
>
> Sexuality is like most growing up. It is a developmental process that
> should not be shrouded in shame, but handled developmentally. When
> our kid asks why a car runs. We may answer because it has an engine.
> We do not explain pistons and gears etc. When our kids ask what is
> the difference between boys and girls that answers should be
> delelopmental. Follow their lead for more information.
>
> If you observe something that needs talking about, by all means talk
> about it.
>
> It is kids who are not talking about it that are crossing the line
> because no one has shared with them anything about responsible sexual
> behavior. Not in a lecture way, but in an informational way.
>
> I can feel my hackles getting up and my soap box coming out, but I
> really think the reason we have so much sexual depravation in our
> culture is because we advertize it everywhere and then we put a big
> stamp of shame on it in regular conversation. WTF> Kids need answers
> and information and they will be exploring. That is how god willing
> they will become sexually healthy adults.
>
> STEPPING OFF THE BOX>>
>
> Kathleen
>






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola
<jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
> I had that book too! :o) There is also the next one in the series
>that is called "What's Happening To Me", all about puberty. The
>pictures are funny, but it actually was great for me at the time
>(around 10) because it showed in a light way that there are *all*
>different types of bodies. For instance there are pictures of all
>different shapes, sizes and positioning of breasts, and some of them
>are so ridiculous that mine seemed perfectly okay after looking at
>those pictures.

OMG I had that one too! Positively hilarious. Here's a weird
question... do you think it's ok to enjoy an honest giggle while
reading this with my son? I mean the pictures ARE silly. All of the
advice out there on discussing sex with your kids seems so unnatural.

> You mentioned that you are "so uncomfortable with sex"...perhaps
>take a look at that? Be willing to explore your history, etc. about
>that?? I know that I have often been grateful for how matter-of-fact
>my mom was about the whole sex thing when I was younger, and I'm sure
>kids pick up as much from our own history/energy about an issue as
>from our words, and perhaps more. Just a thought.
>
> Jodi

I have an interesting family. LOL It was never talked about. Yet,
they all seemed to be VERY sexually active at one point or another or
*ahem* always. My grandmother, so I've been told, had more than her
fair share of men before and during her marriage. LOL She used to
make us all say "sex" instead of "cheese" when taking our pictures.
No joke. And it worked. We always smiled!

So I can't say I'm totally uncomfortable. What I said was "I become
very uncomfortable when there are sexual scenes in movies and on TV
(in regards to my son)." I think this is because he is a boy. I
think I'm just scared. Scared that he won't have a healthy outlook on
sex. so many teenagers are the victim of an oversexed world. It
scares me. But your right. I do need to take a look at that. I
also need to remember that most of my education came from public
school and peers.

mscloudlady

I would love to hear from a nudist on this subject and when or if
they wear clothes around their children after a certain age.

I speak to my children with words such as sex (when dad and I need
some alone time, I tell them this is what we are doing and answer any
questions, there haven't been many yet), vagina, bottom, penis,
testicles, masterbation. Non of these words are bad and we often use
them in public. My son is very interested in girls - it seems on all
levels - he tends to have a better friendship with females which
leads them to trust each other and become curious. I have no problem
with this at all. I don't really know what I would do if it bothered
someones parent. But the shame we have in this country about sex (we
can let kids watch guns but not see a breast, remember the superbowl)
starts somewhere - How do we stop this and make it love instead of
this obscure forbidden desire?

Also rape is not a sexual act and I can't believe that a child's
curiousity was compared to a criminal act.

Elizabeth



--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> My mom had always believed that girls and boys should be separated a
> certain age. As soon as they started to discover there bodies I
think
> was her idea. When she asked what I would do if I had a girl (I'm
> pregnant) and I told her the younger ones could share a bedroom she
> FREAKED. The younger one is a boy.
>
> So here's my dilemma. My son happens to get along with girls quite
> well. He recently met a new friend at play practice. She is his
> equal in energy, silliness, and volume! I would love to see them
> play! She is a public school student and I haven't yet met her
> parents. (she's 10 and my son is 9)
>
> A few times that he has played with girls, we have witnessed them
> being curious. Showing butts and lifting shirts and that sort of
> innocent play. The first time was so innocent and I feel that I
never
> should have said ANYTHING to her parents. They were mad and
wouldn't
> let her play for a long time. By the time they would, the they had
> grown apart from not seeing each other. The second time was with
> girls I may not have wanted him to play with. Or at at least
> unsupervised. But it did happen. We had a nice talk about it. He
is
> really open with me which is nice.
>
> I know that this stuff comes up from time to time. But him being my
> oldest its all new to me. What if it happens again? Am I supposed
to
> try and prevent it? I'm not sure I want to encourage it. But i
don't
> want anyone thinking its wrong.
>
> I really have a very skewed version of sexuality and what is normal
> and healthy for children. I become very uncomfortable when there
are
> sexual scenes in movies and on TV (in regards to my son). He does
not
> know what sex is. Or sexuality. Do i introduce it? Or wait for
him
> to ask? He asked once, and his father told him it was whether you
> were a male or female. He seemed satisfied, but I'm not sure its
what
> he was looking for. Should sexuality be a regular topic? and how
do
> I do this without shocking him right from the get go.
>
> Unschooling comes pretty easily to me. But unschooling sex and
> sexuality??? This is a hard one for me!
>
> Thanks for any help.
>

Tara

Aaaah, I think I see where the "Criminal" thing is coming from. It's
not that it *IS* criminal, just that in our sometimes messed up
society, it is often treated as such.

I know a 13 year old boy who was caught with an 11 yr old girl and even
though it was mutual and the girl didn't want to press charges, the dad
flipped and now this boy has to register as a sex offender, possibly
for the rest of his life if they don't seal his record. It's a messed
up system.

That being said, *your son is not a criminal* and his natural
curiousities shouldn't be treated a such. (This boys were treated that
way and that is why he had a skewed perception of sex and had to look
for answers on his own.)

Z is 8 years old and doesn't want to know a thing about sex. He seems
to have a vague awareness of it and avoids it like the plague. We are
open and make mention of it here or there (carefully so he's not
embarassed but so that he knows we can be open about it). With all the
ED commercials on TV, I'm waiting for him to ask me what "male
enhancement" is! But I don't bring the topic up in depth yet.

The extent of my education when I was young was my mom leaving a few
books on the kitchen table for me to find. I don't want to take that
approach!

So I'm also curious as to what others say about how to approach the
topic and when.

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> Whoa! Criminal?! Seriously? For children getting curious about
each
> others bodies? He's not a predator. I hope I didn't make him
sound
> like that! I'll have to go back and read that. I was explaining
that
> there have been a few times in the past where there has been some
> curious play. I was more interested in helping my son develop a
> healthy view of his body and sexuality rather than tell him he was
a
> criminal for looking at a girls butt when she showed him.

I said at some point it becomes criminal- you want to address it
before that point-

A healthy view of sexuality is keeping your privates private because
in our society that is what is acceptable-

you said your child was 10 but the exploring actually happened when
he was 6 and 8- which is I think a little more about normal
curiosity but boys and girls start internally changing at about 10-
girls are having their periods at 10- this COULD be more about sex
than body curiosity

I think it healthy to explain that privates are privates- even when
consensual- some states the consenual age is 16 or 18- before that
it is illegal to have sex- not sure if that means everything before
sex or just actual sex-




>
> Aren't kids curious? Isn't there a way to help them through this
> stuff without telling them they are wrong?

I would not say it is BAD just not something to do in public- my
girls are 5 and 3 and they mostly just wear underwear at home BUT
when visitors come over they go get clothes on because wearing your
underwear is what you can do at home but not with friends and
neighbors and others

if we lived in a culture where running around nude was acceptable
then it would not be a problem- I told my daughter when she grew up
if she wanted to live with the nudists she could - after she asked
of boys would be there ( she knows boys pee pee bums look different
because she had a potty training boy around) she decided that she
would not live with the boy nudists cause they look funny.

its not bad it is just not what we do


I think a lot of kids
> might hide this stuff from their parents if they were told it was
> criminal or wrong. I'd like to help make his own decisions in
> situations like this.


what you do not want is the girls parents making the choice of what
is out of line-

just as boys need to know that if they are having sex and the girl
get pregnant he does not get a choice as to what happens to the baby
SHE does


I really don't feel he made any mistakes.
> There was just some peeking going on.
>
> We have definitely talked about it! It happened at age 6 and at
age
> 8. Initiated (admittedly) both times by the girls. I didn't
have a
> problem discussing it with them at the time.


did you explain to him that girls and boys should keep their clothes
on? unless he is asking or wondering about actual sex I would just
explain that clothes or unders should be on.



I just don't understand
> how to talk to him now that he is getting older, and wondering "why
> girls get filmed naked on TV" He was referring to a lotion ad
where
> the lady was wrapped in bubbles and ribbon or something.

ask him if he thinks she forgot her clothes or thinks they should
put some on- explain that you can not see her privates that the
bubbles are her pretend clothes- explain that they want you to buy
to lotion and it feels so good.



>
> Also, we still somewhat limit movies and are moving toward not. (I
> learned with video games to take it easy and just start saying yes
> more. When I "let go" of video games all at once I had created
what
> Sandra Dodd explained to me as a wild party atmosphere. Ahhh....
live
> and learn.) It's totally me, I'm uncomfortable with it. Give me
> action and violence any day, but I'm so uncomfortable with sex.

I think we are more comfortable knowing that violence is not real
and removed from us but sexuality IS part of our lives and is real
and does happen and where do we go with it.

Explaining that you think the women on tv need some clothes is ok-
explaining WHY the ads are like they are in kid terms could help

I
> really need help handling the questions that could come up. If
feel
> that if I all of the sudden let him start viewing things that he
never
> has he might get the wrong idea, rather quickly.

like what? are you going to sit down and watch porn? if he is
watching tv ads then talk about them simple and non judgmental- so
not saying something like "those people are bad and wrong and tv is
bad and it is disgusting" that is not the same as saying "gosh I
think they lost their clothes- oh dear they need to do that in
private opps I pushed the wrong button on the remote.

your son is getting older and his boy is going to start changing
SOON at least internally and so leaving the funny books around is
good but also explaining that it is private is important but you are
mom and you will answer ANY questions that he has.


>
> BTW - I would like to clarify. When I said my view on a healthy
> sexuality for kids for skewed I meant skewed in a "no one ever
talked
> about it in my house" way.

mine either but for some reason I am the person all my younger
siblings came to for sex answers so I learned quickly to find the
answers- still as adults they still come to me when then need to
know something- I think info is so important but also is explaining
how things exist in our society is important too.


Julie

swissarmy_wife

--- In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:

> I said at some point it becomes criminal- you want to address it
> before that point-

I know I may have some opposition here, but I'm not sure I can or will
address it this way.

> A healthy view of sexuality is keeping your privates private because
> in our society that is what is acceptable-

I don't see that as being healthy. That seems a little to black and
white for me.

> you said your child was 10 but the exploring actually happened when
> he was 6 and 8- which is I think a little more about normal
> curiosity but boys and girls start internally changing at about 10-
> girls are having their periods at 10- this COULD be more about sex
> than body curiosity

Actually he's 9. Not that it matters. As far as I know he doens't
know what sex is. this is what I'm exploring. I know it will come up
soon. :-)

> I think it healthy to explain that privates are privates- even when
> consensual- some states the consenual age is 16 or 18- before that
> it is illegal to have sex- not sure if that means everything before
> sex or just actual sex-
>
I don't know why, but all this talk about my child's sexuality and the
law bothers me. Maybe I just disagree with the laws. (as usual)

> I would not say it is BAD just not something to do in public- my
> girls are 5 and 3 and they mostly just wear underwear at home BUT
> when visitors come over they go get clothes on because wearing your
> underwear is what you can do at home but not with friends and
> neighbors and others

I would say this is personal choice. It's not a definite.

> if we lived in a culture where running around nude was acceptable
> then it would not be a problem- I told my daughter when she grew up
> if she wanted to live with the nudists she could - after she asked
> of boys would be there ( she knows boys pee pee bums look different
> because she had a potty training boy around) she decided that she
> would not live with the boy nudists cause they look funny.

LOL - Cute. They do look funny, to girls anyway. And vice versa I'm
sure. I've heard little boys think girls cut it off or lost it
somehow. LOL

> its not bad it is just not what we do
>
> what you do not want is the girls parents making the choice of what
> is out of line-

I didn't really think of it that way. and I don't want to. I suppose
the reality is that the general perception is there that its the boys
fault.

> just as boys need to know that if they are having sex and the girl
> get pregnant he does not get a choice as to what happens to the baby
> SHE does
>
I'm not ready for that yet!!! :-)

> did you explain to him that girls and boys should keep their clothes
> on? unless he is asking or wondering about actual sex I would just
> explain that clothes or unders should be on.

no. not quite in those words. We talked more about how he felt about
the situation. He ultimately came to the decision that he felt
"funny" about it and didn't want to do it again.

> ask him if he thinks she forgot her clothes or thinks they should
> put some on- explain that you can not see her privates that the
> bubbles are her pretend clothes- explain that they want you to buy
> to lotion and it feels so good.

Actually I told him that some people choose not to be ashamed of their
bodies. I also said it was possible she was wearing a bikini. He was
well aware that someone was filming her naked and that the bubbles and
ribbons were special effects. We've also had extensive talks about
marketing. LOL

> I think we are more comfortable knowing that violence is not real
> and removed from us but sexuality IS part of our lives and is real
> and does happen and where do we go with it.

Violence is real. Yes maybe more removed, but it is real.

> Explaining that you think the women on tv need some clothes is ok-
> explaining WHY the ads are like they are in kid terms could help

But I don't necessarily think women on TV need clothes. So I wouldn't
say that.


> like what? are you going to sit down and watch porn?

ACK! No! But he might someday. And I'd like to be prepared when it
happens.

if he is
> watching tv ads then talk about them simple and non judgmental- so
> not saying something like "those people are bad and wrong and tv is
> bad and it is disgusting" that is not the same as saying "gosh I
> think they lost their clothes- oh dear they need to do that in
> private opps I pushed the wrong button on the remote.

I see what you mean. but that seems a little avoidant. we're beyond
that "oops" stage.

> your son is getting older and his boy is going to start changing
> SOON at least internally and so leaving the funny books around is
> good but also explaining that it is private is important but you are
> mom and you will answer ANY questions that he has.

Yeah, I will. That's why I'm here for help. *sigh* Hopefully it
will get easier, as I'm pregnant with boy #3. ;-)

> mine either but for some reason I am the person all my younger
> siblings came to for sex answers so I learned quickly to find the
> answers- still as adults they still come to me when then need to
> know something- I think info is so important but also is explaining
> how things exist in our society is important too.

good points. thanks for your thoughtful replies. This is really
helping me work this all out. I know its a tough subject, and many
people have different ideas on this, and probably why I haven't seen
many responses. hopefully the dialogue can keep going. I've already
felt a little more at ease.

-Heather

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:

>
> > A healthy view of sexuality is keeping your privates private
because
> > in our society that is what is acceptable-
>
> I don't see that as being healthy. That seems a little to black
and
> white for me.

the thing is you can have whatever attitudes you want in your house
but when you interact with society or another person it comes into
play

if you feel physical fighting is ok and then your child or teen
physically fights with people there is a point where it becomes a
crime - assult- you get locked up. There is a time and place for
fighting and a time where it just is not going to work

I do not agree with all the sexual laws either but since they are
there and he will be interacting with another person you need to be
aware of them because you can not tell the police that you just do
not agree with the laws

like unschooling you have to live within the laws or at least not
run up against them but it gets tricky when they are interacting
with another child who may go home and tell parents and then they
get involved.


Julie

swissarmy_wife

Well, criminal activity aside:

He came home today and asked me how to tell a girl that he wants to be
her boyfriend. *giggle*

I really think I handled the conversation well. It was the most
innocent conversation, yet so grown up at the same time. I wish I had
the time to write it all here.

I think he was under the impression that he HAD to ask her since he
liked her so much. I have 3 teenage siblings and I wonder if he
picked up something from their conversations. He actually said "well,
don't I need to find someone to live with?". I said "my goodness no.
Not yet." And he had this relieved smile on his face. :-)

So anyway... Open dialogue. Honesty. Trust. It's working again. I
think I'm regaining some faith in myself. I must have felt this
coming or something. LOL

swissarmy_wife

Having all this criminal activity talk, although somewhat true, is a
little frustrating. I don't see any of this as criminal or a need
(for me personally) to worry about it.

I think I would like to move more toward a "normalcy" of honesty and
openness about the subject. Thanks.

--- In [email protected], "mscloudlady"
<cloudlady@...> wrote:
>
> I would love to hear from a nudist on this subject and when or if
> they wear clothes around their children after a certain age.
>
> I speak to my children with words such as sex (when dad and I need
> some alone time, I tell them this is what we are doing and answer any
> questions, there haven't been many yet), vagina, bottom, penis,
> testicles, masterbation. Non of these words are bad and we often use
> them in public. My son is very interested in girls - it seems on all
> levels - he tends to have a better friendship with females which
> leads them to trust each other and become curious. I have no problem
> with this at all. I don't really know what I would do if it bothered
> someones parent. But the shame we have in this country about sex (we
> can let kids watch guns but not see a breast, remember the superbowl)
> starts somewhere - How do we stop this and make it love instead of
> this obscure forbidden desire?
>
> Also rape is not a sexual act and I can't believe that a child's
> curiousity was compared to a criminal act.
>
> Elizabeth
>

carnationsgalore

> I would love to hear from a nudist on this subject and when or if
> they wear clothes around their children after a certain age.
> Elizabeth

I wouldn't say we're nudists but my DH and I have always presented
nakedness as just nakedness with no shame involved. My children are
dd9, ds11, and dd15 and they still see me totally undressed at
times. It doesn't bother any of them as they seem to have no
problem coming into the bedroom or bathroom while I'm there. My
younger two kids see my DH naked as well. My dd15 is his
stepdaughter so he's always been very courteous and discreet when
she's around. She doesn't go into the bedroom or bathroom if she
knows he may be undressed.

All of my children prefer privacy when they shower and/or change
clothes. My dd9 will let me and DH into the bathroom when she's
changing but she doesn't want her sister or brother to come in. We
do the 'respect closed doors' thing. If a door is closed, you must
knock on it and wait for an answer. We've always done this with the
kids even when they were toddlers.

While we believe there is no shame in the naked body, we also
believe that private parts are private. That means each individual
should decide their own comfort level. But we also talk about
societal (is that a word?) expectations. In other words, we talk
about what is and is not accepted outside the house.

Beth

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: mscloudlady <cloudlady@...>

I can't believe that a child's
curiousity was compared to a criminal act.

-=-=-=-=-

Well, if an adult were to do it (even if the child were to do it in
just a few short years), it *would* be considered criminal. That's
something to keep in mind. What's acceptable today can become quite
unacceptable and illegal in just a short span of years.

Curiosity needs to be satisfied; but as the child gets older, "playing
doctor" may not be the best way to acquire information.

I can't remember the age of the child in question; but IMO eight seems
OK, ten seems questionable, and 12 seems too old---as a general
rule---to be playing doctor.

When Cameron was 12-ish, I got a dozen or so books from the library and
left them in his room. They were quite a source of laughter among his
friends for a while. But then, they started actually reading them. <g>

But we've never been shy about nudity in our family---or about
discussing sex. Both boys seemed to naturally become more modest after
being mostly naked toddlers/children. Up until Duncan was 9-ish, I
guess, one of his best friends was a girl that used to spend the night
regularly. They've naturally put some distance between themselves these
last few years. If he'd shown "too much" interest, we would have talked
about it more. The idea of sex is still icky to him as he's about to
turn 12. Again---a few years will change that too. <g>

So---age can matter---practically as well as legally. It pays to pat
attention and answer questions as openly and honestly as possible.
Helping them be aware of what's socially acceptable as they age is
GOOD. Things change so fast!



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org




________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
>>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Well, if an adult were to do it (even if the child were to do it in
> just a few short years), it *would* be considered criminal.


If two adult were to check each other out etc.. It would be considered
fooling around, not criminal unless one of them did not want to, then
it is sexual assault and not sexuality.

Kathleen

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Kathleen Gehrke <gehrkes@...>


If two adult were to check each other out etc.. It would be considered
fooling around, not criminal unless one of them did not want to, then
it is sexual assault and not sexuality.

-==-=-=-=-

Good point.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

A month ago or so David (dh) was looking through the Human Relations Area Files (HRAF), a database based on information from anthropological ethnographies, for information on men seeking medical treatment in other cultures. Unfortunately (but amusingly) HRAF isn't a particularly well organised database and he stumbled across a little piece of an ethnography that talked about how grown women within this group would often walk up to a young boy and pull on their penis and say something like "with something that little how you are ever going to please a woman" and men making fun of little girls flat chests not being able to feed a baby. The funny thing is, for me at least, that the story of this different
culture, this open treatment of sex made me feel relieved about the openness with which David and I treat sex in our family. I don't pull on Simon's penis and comment on it, and no one has commented on Linnaea's potential to breastfeed given her current lack of bra size, but they watch Family Guy and recently have come to enjoy South Park (which makes me very uncomfortable) and we have open conversations about sex brought on by Leisure Suit Larry the PS2 game as well as television shows. Although for a long time Simon wouldn't say the word sex, he had to spell it saying S-E and then slashing the x into the air. I didn't tend to bring it up when he felt that shyly about the subject. And if he asked a question that would lead to a discussion about S-E hand slash I would say something like the answer might make you uncomfortable and he would choose whether to talk about it or not.



There is a book I read years ago by Marjorie Shostak called Nisa: The Life and Words of a !Kung Woman. It is a biography of this woman Nisa as told to Marjorie Shostak. There is a scene in the book with Nisa as a young girl lying on the ground in bed next to her parents who are having sex and she pulls away a little bit. Not far 'cause it's cold out, but a little bit away. Reading that I can remember thinking about how bizarre it is to not know anything but books and words about sex until you have it. Not that I am suggesting that children should be in bed with parents when they are having sex, nor that children should be raised outside of their own culture's norms. I guess what I am trying to say is that a healthy outlook on sex may be one in which sex is a part of public conversation and part of what makes it public conversation in my life is the media.



We've been watching a BBC series with David Attenborough called Life in Cold Blood for the past few weeks. The show had a segment on a species of newt where the male courted the female and when accepted by her he would lay a sperm packet on the ground which she would walk over and pick up. It was a near sexless exchange. And it was very cool to think about how different sex can be. It was a sex cell transfer that I'd never heard about before and it started some very cool conversations about sex and sexlessness and tapered off as something else came up on the show. There is balance to the discussions and the openness about sex that Simon and Linnaea experience. There is a lot of humor and intensity given the shows they like to watch. Giggidy Giggidy is a common catchphrase among friends, the cultural leveler.

I don't think media exposure will produce the sex-crazed, amoral individuals that Larry Clark portrayed in the movie Kids. Man did that movie disturb me. I think there is more that underlines the amorality of a child than his purely superficial, in that moment, movie depicted.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com



===================

So I can't say I'm totally uncomfortable. What I said was "I become
very uncomfortable when there are sexual scenes in movies and on TV
(in regards to my son)." I think this is because he is a boy. I
think I'm just scared. Scared that he won't have a healthy outlook on
sex. so many teenagers are the victim of an oversexed world. It
scares me. But your right. I do need to take a look at that. I
also need to remember that most of my education came from public
school and peers.




Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 19, 2008, at 7:22 PM, swissarmy_wife wrote:

> Having all this criminal activity talk, although somewhat true, is a
> little frustrating. I don't see any of this as criminal or a need
> (for me personally) to worry about it.
>
> I think I would like to move more toward a "normalcy" of honesty and
> openness about the subject. Thanks.

Once a question goes out it takes on a life of its own and becomes a
topic of general discussion. For some people also interested in this
topic this *will* be an important point.

I think the legal aspect of it can be said in a scary way or a matter
of fact way and I think maybe you're hearing scare him out of this
behavior. It's not meant like that. It's meant as important
information so he can make an informed choice.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

If this message board has taught me ONE thing. It's that I need to
have more clarity in my posts. :-)

Those were two VERY separate comments. I didn't even think about the
way they would run together. I meant more honesty and openness in MY
HOME.



--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2008, at 7:22 PM, swissarmy_wife wrote:
>
> > Having all this criminal activity talk, although somewhat true, is a
> > little frustrating. I don't see any of this as criminal or a need
> > (for me personally) to worry about it.
> >
> > I think I would like to move more toward a "normalcy" of honesty and
> > openness about the subject. Thanks.
>
> Once a question goes out it takes on a life of its own and becomes a
> topic of general discussion. For some people also interested in this
> topic this *will* be an important point.
>
> I think the legal aspect of it can be said in a scary way or a matter
> of fact way and I think maybe you're hearing scare him out of this
> behavior. It's not meant like that. It's meant as important
> information so he can make an informed choice.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Kathleen Gehrke"
<gehrkes@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@ wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> > -=-=-=-=-
> >
> > Well, if an adult were to do it (even if the child were to do it
in
> > just a few short years), it *would* be considered criminal.
>
>
> If two adult were to check each other out etc.. It would be
considered
> fooling around, not criminal unless one of them did not want to,
then
> it is sexual assault and not sexuality.
>
> Kathleen
>

it is criminal IF they are under the age of consent and the other
persons parents get involved and want to press charges

the original poster stated that her boy child had done this with a
girl and her parents were already upset that it had happened before
and she wanted the children to be able to play together- no matter
how you feel about it there is another family that gets to have a say

that is why i said that there are laws regarding this stuff so she
needed to know where that line was if she was going to have the
children play together and something "innocent" happened and the
girls parents found out- it could then be out of her hands

Julie