Deb Lewis

I'm the least patient moderator on this list but have let this go awhile because I think other folks reading are benefiting from the discussion. Sometimes it's during these kinds of frustrating exchanges that the most useful ideas emerge. Even when an original poster is missing the point, other list members reading are gaining new insights.

There's been a lot of drama and exaggeration in your posts, Karen. You have not been insulted but you have called list members "nasty" and said there was a "culture of hatefulness" here. You are the one who's been sending insults and as moderator of the list I'm asking you to stop.

In the "Files" section of the group's homepage you'll find the welcome message for this group. Please read it. In it we ask list members to refrain from meta discussion. Julie and Heather didn't insult you. I went back and read through all the posts just in case I missed something and they have offered you advice in good faith. If you *felt* insulted or under attack that's a problem within your own self that you can address however you like, but as a moderator I'm asking you to refrain from making accusations against your fellow list members.

You said you were done with the discussion, Karen, and then you continue to post. Please just read for awhile and let it be. You don't "have to" defend yourself here. You're not under attack. You don't owe us explanations for any choice you make. You don't have to respond to every email. What you *are* responsible for on this list, the only thing you're responsible for on this list, is to follow the list guidelines.

Deb Lewis
----------------------------------------
Karen wrote:
It's not anger...I feel I have to defend myself. It may be
defensiveness but it's not anger. And frankly I'm tired of having to
defend myself, my parenting and my love for my kids. (All of which
have been repeatedly questioned.) I simply don't have the energy for
this. I went to unschooling to end the fighting in my house and now I
have all this ugliness in my inbox. I don't want this anymore. You
all can continue to point out all the ways in which I'm so very wrong
but I'm done with this discussion. Have it without me, or behind my
back off list if you wish. I'm out of it. Back to lurking with the
25 other women too afraid to speak up on this list.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

katherinesaund

Thank you, Deb. I've been surprised by some of what I've seen on
this list lately, but I've stayed here because even though I don't
intentionally allow negativity into my life - and many of the recent
messages here felt very negative – I am new and searching for
answers, ideas and information on how this works for other families.
I am learning from the wisdom of some of the veteran unschoolers
ideas and suggestions, and I look forward to more of this.

Like Beth, (her message was: Does age matter when moving into
unschooling lifestyle?), any insight, ideas, and wisdom that can be
shared relative to beginning the unschooling journey with a child at
10 and above would be so helpful to me. I'm vacillating, just like
Beth, with unschooling my almost 11 yo. Although unschooling feels
right and I see the benefits in my son, I still have doubts. We have
been "unschooling" for about 3 weeks now (although we have dabbled
with it at times, and I have been reading about it for awhile) and I
find myself wanting to "do math" with a structured program, and other
subjects. I'm struggling with "quantifying" what he is learning
through out the day. Any tips, suggestions or books that anyone can
recommend to help me with this would be greatly appreciated!



--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm the least patient moderator on this list but have let this go
awhile because I think other folks reading are benefiting from the
discussion. Sometimes it's during these kinds of frustrating
exchanges that the most useful ideas emerge. Even when an original
poster is missing the point, other list members reading are gaining
new insights.
>
> There's been a lot of drama and exaggeration in your posts,
Karen. You have not been insulted but you have called list
members "nasty" and said there was a "culture of hatefulness" here.
You are the one who's been sending insults and as moderator of the
list I'm asking you to stop.
>
> In the "Files" section of the group's homepage you'll find the
welcome message for this group. Please read it. In it we ask list
members to refrain from meta discussion. Julie and Heather didn't
insult you. I went back and read through all the posts just in case
I missed something and they have offered you advice in good faith.
If you *felt* insulted or under attack that's a problem within your
own self that you can address however you like, but as a moderator
I'm asking you to refrain from making accusations against your fellow
list members.
>
> You said you were done with the discussion, Karen, and then you
continue to post. Please just read for awhile and let it be. You
don't "have to" defend yourself here. You're not under attack. You
don't owe us explanations for any choice you make. You don't have to
respond to every email. What you *are* responsible for on this list,
the only thing you're responsible for on this list, is to follow the
list guidelines.
>
> Deb Lewis
> ----------------------------------------
> Karen wrote:
> It's not anger...I feel I have to defend myself. It may be
> defensiveness but it's not anger. And frankly I'm tired of having to
> defend myself, my parenting and my love for my kids. (All of which
> have been repeatedly questioned.) I simply don't have the energy for
> this. I went to unschooling to end the fighting in my house and now
I
> have all this ugliness in my inbox. I don't want this anymore. You
> all can continue to point out all the ways in which I'm so very
wrong
> but I'm done with this discussion. Have it without me, or behind my
> back off list if you wish. I'm out of it. Back to lurking with the
> 25 other women too afraid to speak up on this list.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pamela Sorooshian

Age matters, but not in ways you might think.

There IS going to be some healing that has to take place in an older
child. School does damage - even to kids who are seemingly successful
in school and even more so in kids who have had negative schooling
experiences. So you have to expect to be patient, there can be some
negative stuff that comes up in the first year or so after getting
them out of school. It might sort of break your heart, but if you
expect it, you can recognize it and be prepared to handle it with
equanimity. I'm talking about things like a child who just stops
reading altogether - doesn't pick up a book on their own, for example.
Parents will come here and say, "At least when he was in school he did
read. Now he just wants to play video games all day and night." Or,
they'll complain that the kids fight too much or want to watch tv too
much, etc. Kids that never go to school and are not schooled at home,
never have to go through the deschooling process.

On the other hand, my oldest daughter was in school through 4th grade
and she's now 23. She says that taking her out of school was the most
empowering thing I could have done and that that experience made her
realize that her life is HER life - that there is always a choice,
that it is always up to her to be in charge of her own life. Up until
we said, "No more going to school," she says she felt like, as a kid,
her life path was not her own responsibility. And she has an awareness
- she KNOWS what we got her out of and she is extremely grateful and
appreciative. In other words, there can be more conscious awareness of
what they're getting with unschooling, and that's kind of nice.

There are most definitely some things the schooled kids have to
unlearn, though, and it takes time and experience. For example,
they've usually got the idea that learning only happens when they do
lessons. They often think learning only counts if it is "hard." Or if
it is tested and graded.

It can help to give them some input about unschooling, if they are at
all interested. Teens might want to read the first half of Grace
Llewelyn's book, "The Teen-Age Liberation Handbook." (The second half
is more of a reference - ways to learn things they might want to learn
- great ideas.)

Be aware that they might have weird ideas about why you're unschooling
- I've heard lots of people say they found out later that the kids
thought they were not smart enough for school.

And, be really sensitive to their concerns - make sure they have
plenty of chance to let you know what they are worried about. Take the
concerns seriously even when you know that the things they're worried
about won't end up to be a problem. If a kid says he's worried he
won't ever be able to go to college, respond with real information,
don't just brush it off saying, "Oh, you will, don't worry." Social
concerns are common - take those serously, too - don't brush them
aside. Make a calendar, set dates for getting together with friends,
etc.

And, finally, what other option do you really have? If you've come to
realize that schooling is harmful, are you going to leave them in just
because you didn't figure that out sooner? Get them out before there
is more harm done.

And, to reassure you, some of the most awesome unschooled teens and
young adults I know were kids who were taken out of school in later
childhood or in their teens. You're setting them free - how can that
possibly not be a good thing?

-pam


On Feb 17, 2008, at 2:39 PM, katherinesaund wrote:

>
> Like Beth, (her message was: Does age matter when moving into
> unschooling lifestyle?), any insight, ideas, and wisdom that can be
> shared relative to beginning the unschooling journey with a child at
> 10 and above would be so helpful to me.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> There IS going to be some healing that has to take place in an
> older child. School does damage - even to kids who are seemingly
> successful in school and even more so in kids who have had
> negative schooling experiences.

First, referring to the ladies who shared an interest in this topic,
let me say I'm happy to see there are a couple of others in the same
boat as me. It's always helpful to realize I'm not alone! :)

Pam, I'm so glad you responded. When you say 'school does damage'
are you referring to any type of schooling even school at home?

> Social concerns are common - take those serously, too - don't
> brush them aside. Make a calendar, set dates for getting together
> with friends, etc.

This is where we fall short. We simply do not have many friends.
In fact, my dd9's #1 reason for returning to school was loneliness
and boredom. I tried finding activities for her but it never seemed
like enough. She wanted to be with kids all day long every day.
She still loves to do things so we're trying once again to find her
lots of things to do. We've tried networking but it's getting
harder as they get older. They don't like park days anymore,
especially most of the kids are so young!

> And, to reassure you, some of the most awesome unschooled teens
> and young adults I know were kids who were taken out of school
> in later childhood or in their teens.
> -pam

The more I thought about what I posted, the more I realized the
question was a bit odd. The kids likely won't have a problem with
the transition. It's going to be me and DH!

But thanks for responding.
Beth

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: katherinesaund <ksaund@...>

Like Beth, (her message was: Does age matter when moving into
unschooling lifestyle?), any insight, ideas, and wisdom that can be
shared relative to beginning the unschooling journey with a child at
10 and above would be so helpful to me. I'm vacillating, just like
Beth, with unschooling my almost 11 yo. Although unschooling feels
right and I see the benefits in my son, I still have doubts. We have
been "unschooling" for about 3 weeks now (although we have dabbled
with it at times, and I have been reading about it for awhile) and I
find myself wanting to "do math" with a structured program, and other
subjects. I'm struggling with "quantifying" what he is learning
through out the day. Any tips, suggestions or books that anyone can
recommend to help me with this would be greatly appreciated!

-=-=-=-=-=

We pulled Cameron (now 20) out of a private prep school at the end of
sixth grade. I'm familiar with the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. <g>

The *big* question I would pose to you is : do you think he won't get
exposed to math simply by living?

Can you give us examples of what he does/likes to do? Hobbies, etc.?

We can show you where to start looking and *how* to "translate" it into
educationese.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

katherinesaund

We pulled Cameron (now 20) out of a private prep school at the end of
sixth grade. I'm familiar with the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. <g>

The *big* question I would pose to you is : do you think he won't get
exposed to math simply by living?

Can you give us examples of what he does/likes to do? Hobbies, etc.?

We can show you where to start looking and *how* to "translate" it
into
educationese.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference

>
Kelly,
My son likes to play games on his computer (neopets mostly-his goal
is to save up to 14 million neopoints.), communicate with other kids
on the Neopets boards, play with our dog, play with friends, playing
outside, and go to archery class(Jr Olympic Development program). He
dabbles in html code and has his own pet care business (walking dogs
mostly). He hates driving in the car (because we are from Maine
originally and drive back there often from Vermont), so getting him
to leave the house is difficult. Unless of course, he's going to a
friend's house!

One of the biggest challenges I face is helping my husband see (and
later this year, the State of Vermont) that we are learning - all the
time. It's important to my husband that our son learn and stay
current with what a "typical 5th grader" is learning in the schools.
He comes from a strong collegiate background, and his point is that
he wants us to approach education so that our son will be able to get
into the college of his choice someday, if he chooses.

The other big challenge is ME! I feel like I need to present
learning in more creative ways to our son. I think that if "I do it
right", he will want to review math facts with me or provide some
writing samples (which he is completely resistant to!) for his
portfolio.

Any help/suggestions/tips would be great!
txs,
Katherine


> We pulled Cameron (now 20) out of a private prep school at the end
of
> sixth grade. I'm familiar with the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. <g>
>
> The *big* question I would pose to you is : do you think he won't
get
> exposed to math simply by living?
>
> Can you give us examples of what he does/likes to do? Hobbies, etc.?
>
> We can show you where to start looking and *how* to "translate" it
into
> educationese.
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 18, 2008, at 9:23 AM, katherinesaund wrote:

> It's important to my husband that our son learn and stay
> current with what a "typical 5th grader" is learning in the schools.
> He comes from a strong collegiate background, and his point is that
> he wants us to approach education so that our son will be able to get
> into the college of his choice someday, if he chooses.

But the "What your x Grader Should Know" series - have it on the
shelf. That might be enough to comfort your husband <G>.

But, if you do have to compromise with him (compromise is better than
putting your son in school, better than fully schooling at home,
better than divorcing your husband, better than lots of things),
having your son read a little from the 5th grader book would maybe
satisfy your dh.

I'm NOT suggesting that unschooled kids need to do something like this
- just suggesting it as an option in place of caving in to demands
that he does formal schooling.
>
>
> The other big challenge is ME! I feel like I need to present
> learning in more creative ways to our son.

Don't present learning. Present LIFE. You don't need to think about
what he's learning. Think about whether he is having a good time.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

katherinesaund

Thank you, Pam! Great insights - EXACTLY what I need and very
encouraging.
-K
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2008, at 9:23 AM, katherinesaund wrote:
>
> > It's important to my husband that our son learn and stay
> > current with what a "typical 5th grader" is learning in the
schools.
> > He comes from a strong collegiate background, and his point is
that
> > he wants us to approach education so that our son will be able to
get
> > into the college of his choice someday, if he chooses.
>
> But the "What your x Grader Should Know" series - have it on the
> shelf. That might be enough to comfort your husband <G>.
>
> But, if you do have to compromise with him (compromise is better
than
> putting your son in school, better than fully schooling at home,
> better than divorcing your husband, better than lots of things),
> having your son read a little from the 5th grader book would maybe
> satisfy your dh.
>
> I'm NOT suggesting that unschooled kids need to do something like
this
> - just suggesting it as an option in place of caving in to demands
> that he does formal schooling.
> >
> >
> > The other big challenge is ME! I feel like I need to present
> > learning in more creative ways to our son.
>
> Don't present learning. Present LIFE. You don't need to think
about
> what he's learning. Think about whether he is having a good time.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: katherinesaund <ksaund@...>

One of the biggest challenges I face is helping my husband see (and
later this year, the State of Vermont) that we are learning - all the
time. It's important to my husband that our son learn and stay
current with what a "typical 5th grader" is learning in the schools.

-=-=-=-=-

Why? Why is that important?

Can he actually answer that?

==-=-=-=-=-

He comes from a strong collegiate background,

-=-=-=-

yeah---me too.

-=-=-=-=-

and his point is that
he wants us to approach education so that our son will be able to get
into the college of his choice someday, if he chooses.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And his scenario is that your son does what they do in school? So why
don't you just put him in school? I mean---what's the reason to
homeschool him? To offer him the same thing that schools offer kids?
Why would that help his chances to get into college?

So here you have the opportunity to offer your child sooo much more
than school, yet you're giving him no more than school can. You're
choosing to have his application into college to look exactly like the
other 12 billion kids who apply to colleges each year.

What would help him actually stand out as a great college candidate? A
transcript? Like everyone else?
Or passion? and a portfolio? and work experience?

What if he decides college isn't for him? Will you be disappointed?
What will all that school work be worth then? Wouldn't it make more
sense to delve into passions NOW fully and completely and simply keep
that love of learning alive and well? Forever?

-=-=-=-=-==-

The other big challenge is ME! I feel like I need to present
learning in more creative ways to our son.

=-=-=-=-=-=-

Maybe. What are you doing already?

But really, learning is learning. It doesn't need to be "presented." It
just needs to be *allowed* to happen. School shuts DOWN so much
learning because the teachers are so busy *teaching*.

-=-=-=-==-

I think that if "I do it
right", he will want to review math facts with me or provide some
writing samples (which he is completely resistant to!) for his
portfolio.

-=-=-=-=

Yeah---probably not.

Did you?

Don't you think your teachers spent a lot of time planning their
classroom time? How much did *you* retain? Did you look forward to
reviewing math facts?

You mean he doesn't write at all? On the computer?

Unschooling doesn't mean that he will suddenly start doing what looks
like school. It means that *you*, the parent, needs to start seeing the
learning that is already happening and translate that into
"educationese."

Quit pushing and start LOOKING. The learning's happening. Every day.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

katherinesaund

Thanks, Kelly. I appreciate your candor and the time you took to
reply to my post. It is helping me "see" that I do need to open my
eyes and observe the learning that's taking place. My son writes on
boards with his friends much of the day, and he is learning and
creating and having FUN in the process. He is an amazingly sweet
child and I would not trade the time we have together for anything.

This brief, initial period of unschooling has allowed me to enjoy our
homeschool experience more than I imagined possible, and I know that
echoes true for our son, as well. All by itself that says so much,
doesn't it.

I just received a copy of The Unschooling Unmanual. It's beautiful.
Thanks for mentioning it in an earlier post.
-Katherine

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: katherinesaund <ksaund@...>
>
> One of the biggest challenges I face is helping my husband see (and
> later this year, the State of Vermont) that we are learning - all
the
> time. It's important to my husband that our son learn and stay
> current with what a "typical 5th grader" is learning in the schools.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Why? Why is that important?
>
> Can he actually answer that?
>
> ==-=-=-=-=-
>
> He comes from a strong collegiate background,
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> yeah---me too.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> and his point is that
> he wants us to approach education so that our son will be able to
get
> into the college of his choice someday, if he chooses.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> And his scenario is that your son does what they do in school? So
why
> don't you just put him in school? I mean---what's the reason to
> homeschool him? To offer him the same thing that schools offer
kids?
> Why would that help his chances to get into college?
>
> So here you have the opportunity to offer your child sooo much more
> than school, yet you're giving him no more than school can. You're
> choosing to have his application into college to look exactly like
the
> other 12 billion kids who apply to colleges each year.
>
> What would help him actually stand out as a great college
candidate? A
> transcript? Like everyone else?
> Or passion? and a portfolio? and work experience?
>
> What if he decides college isn't for him? Will you be disappointed?
> What will all that school work be worth then? Wouldn't it make more
> sense to delve into passions NOW fully and completely and simply
keep
> that love of learning alive and well? Forever?
>
> -=-=-=-=-==-
>
> The other big challenge is ME! I feel like I need to present
> learning in more creative ways to our son.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Maybe. What are you doing already?
>
> But really, learning is learning. It doesn't need to
be "presented." It
> just needs to be *allowed* to happen. School shuts DOWN so much
> learning because the teachers are so busy *teaching*.
>
> -=-=-=-==-
>
> I think that if "I do it
> right", he will want to review math facts with me or provide some
> writing samples (which he is completely resistant to!) for his
> portfolio.
>
> -=-=-=-=
>
> Yeah---probably not.
>
> Did you?
>
> Don't you think your teachers spent a lot of time planning their
> classroom time? How much did *you* retain? Did you look forward to
> reviewing math facts?
>
> You mean he doesn't write at all? On the computer?
>
> Unschooling doesn't mean that he will suddenly start doing what
looks
> like school. It means that *you*, the parent, needs to start seeing
the
> learning that is already happening and translate that into
> "educationese."
>
> Quit pushing and start LOOKING. The learning's happening. Every day.
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>

shnunrizzo

Kelly wrote (snipped):

> So here you have the opportunity to offer your child sooo much more
> than school, yet you're giving him no more than school can. You're
> choosing to have his application into college to look exactly like
the other 12 billion kids who apply to colleges each year.
>
> What would help him actually stand out as a great college
candidate? A
> transcript? Like everyone else?
> Or passion? and a portfolio? and work experience?
>
> What if he decides college isn't for him? Will you be disappointed?
> What will all that school work be worth then? Wouldn't it make more
> sense to delve into passions NOW fully and completely and simply
keep
> that love of learning alive and well? Forever?
>
> But really, learning is learning. It doesn't need to
be "presented." It
> just needs to be *allowed* to happen. School shuts DOWN so much
> learning because the teachers are so busy *teaching*.
>


That was a great post. I fully agree and saved your comebacks in a
file for my own husband, who sometimes needs reassuring.

Thanks
Shannon R