Karen Buxcel

Hi Karen,
It's Karen (from S.D this time!) I just wanted to do a very quick reply to
this, and maybe you've already thought of this, but wanted to share anyway.


On Feb 15, 2008 11:23 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:

> My 3 yr old would rather not have
> her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
> doesn't want to have it changed?
>






**My 3 yo seldom wants his diaper changed. I used to wonder the same thing,
"hmmm, maybe if I just leave him in it long enough he'll get so disgusted
with it, he'll beg to be changed. Nope. And really, that just felt, to me,
like a mean thing to do. Sage really didn't object, after all, to having
his diaper changed, he objected to leaving said activity to have his diaper
changed. If I'm trying to get him to come into the bathroom with me so I
can wipe him where *I think it's convenient, forget it. So, I finally
learned (yes! still learning!) to do it completely on his terms. I soak
the cloths with warm water, and go to where he is. While he plays or
watches tv, or whatever it is he's doing, I pull off the diaper, wipe him up
and he's done. No coercion at all, he's happy to stand there, uninterrupted
in what he was doing, while I take care of the rest. Win/Win!


She doesn't want to be treated for a
> nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
> wants the meds she'll ask?"
>






**And I even have a reply for this! :) Right now we've been kissed with the
gift of chicken pox in our house. My 6yo (middle son) wants nothing to do
with ANY remedy or comforting solution I offer him. But, I just keep
offering. After all, he knows his body better than I know his body, and I
have to trust that if he really doesn't feel like taking an oatmeal bath, he
probably doesn't need one. Day 1 of spots, he takes nothing. Day 2 of
spots, he takes nothing. Last night, day 3 of spots, he looks at me with
discomfort in his eyes, so I ask him if he'd like an oatmeal bath. He nods
yes. And he even took some Rhus Tox when I offered it to him. Sure, I
could have held him down and forced medicine into him when *I* thought he
needed medicine, but that would have made me look like an ***hole in his
eyes and heart. Instead, I was his helper, there to offer him help and
comfort when he's ready for it.

There's always an option, another way of looking at things and of doing
things. It doesn't have to be from the angle of "it's for your own good".
I would really hate it if my husband did or said those kinds of things to
me. But if he said, "Sweetie, I can tell you're in a lot of pain, can we
try this? No? How about this? This? This?" until we've both agreed on
something.

Hope your day is beautiful, and kiss your 3yo for me! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE 3
year olds!

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

I appreciate your advice but as I've said, the situation is completely
different. Your son doesn't want you to bug him. My daughter doesn't
want to be punched in the head. Changing her while she's doing
something else doesn't mitigate the fear. Abuse is totally different
than irritation. Though as I've said I've fixed the diapering
problem. She doesn't resist and happily comes to have her diaper
changed now because she knows she's not going to be hurt and I made it
fun. Additionally, there isn't anything she likes better than to have
an adult invested in her happiness so she will leave a toy with no
hesitation to interact with us. Years of neglect and abuse have made
her crave attention and affection...more than your normal 3 yr old who
is already beginning to pull away and find their autonomy. She is
also only about 12 months old developmentally so that changes the
situation significantly.

And it's not healthy for her to keep sublimating her physical needs
because she had to for 3.5 yrs. It's important to teach her/show her
that her body is important and worthy of taking care of. Shame,
sadnessm and worthlessness is common in abandoned children. There is
way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused child
than in your average blank slate bio kid.

Karen

On Feb 16, 2008 10:30 AM, Karen Buxcel <thewildtribe@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Karen,
> It's Karen (from S.D this time!) I just wanted to do a very quick reply to
> this, and maybe you've already thought of this, but wanted to share anyway.
>
> On Feb 15, 2008 11:23 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> > My 3 yr old would rather not have
> > her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
> > doesn't want to have it changed?
> >
>
> **My 3 yo seldom wants his diaper changed. I used to wonder the same thing,
> "hmmm, maybe if I just leave him in it long enough he'll get so disgusted
> with it, he'll beg to be changed. Nope. And really, that just felt, to me,
> like a mean thing to do. Sage really didn't object, after all, to having
> his diaper changed, he objected to leaving said activity to have his diaper
> changed. If I'm trying to get him to come into the bathroom with me so I
> can wipe him where *I think it's convenient, forget it. So, I finally
> learned (yes! still learning!) to do it completely on his terms. I soak
> the cloths with warm water, and go to where he is. While he plays or
> watches tv, or whatever it is he's doing, I pull off the diaper, wipe him up
> and he's done. No coercion at all, he's happy to stand there, uninterrupted
> in what he was doing, while I take care of the rest. Win/Win!
>
> She doesn't want to be treated for a
> > nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
> > wants the meds she'll ask?"
> >
>
> **And I even have a reply for this! :) Right now we've been kissed with the
> gift of chicken pox in our house. My 6yo (middle son) wants nothing to do
> with ANY remedy or comforting solution I offer him. But, I just keep
> offering. After all, he knows his body better than I know his body, and I
> have to trust that if he really doesn't feel like taking an oatmeal bath, he
> probably doesn't need one. Day 1 of spots, he takes nothing. Day 2 of
> spots, he takes nothing. Last night, day 3 of spots, he looks at me with
> discomfort in his eyes, so I ask him if he'd like an oatmeal bath. He nods
> yes. And he even took some Rhus Tox when I offered it to him. Sure, I
> could have held him down and forced medicine into him when *I* thought he
> needed medicine, but that would have made me look like an ***hole in his
> eyes and heart. Instead, I was his helper, there to offer him help and
> comfort when he's ready for it.
>
> There's always an option, another way of looking at things and of doing
> things. It doesn't have to be from the angle of "it's for your own good".
> I would really hate it if my husband did or said those kinds of things to
> me. But if he said, "Sweetie, I can tell you're in a lot of pain, can we
> try this? No? How about this? This? This?" until we've both agreed on
> something.
>
> Hope your day is beautiful, and kiss your 3yo for me! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE 3
> year olds!
>
> Karen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Karen Buxcel

Hi Karen,
You're right, the situation is different. I didn't realize your daughter's
special circumstances. Although, it seems counterproductive to do things to
her "by force" when that's what she seems to be so afraid of already.
I'm sure you'll find the answers you are looking for. You've gotten lots of
great answers here already, notably letting her go diaper free (yes, i hear
you've already solved that one) to using other means of healing an ear
infection besides antibiotics. Is she prone to ear infections? If so, have
you modified her diet? Dairy is a big problem for kiddos with recurring ear
infections.

Have you considered wearing her in a sling? Are you sleeping with her at
night? Does she have lots of skin to skin contact with you?

Karen



On Feb 16, 2008 9:52 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:

> I appreciate your advice but as I've said, the situation is completely
> different. Your son doesn't want you to bug him. My daughter doesn't
> want to be punched in the head. Changing her while she's doing
> something else doesn't mitigate the fear. Abuse is totally different
> than irritation. Though as I've said I've fixed the diapering
> problem. She doesn't resist and happily comes to have her diaper
> changed now because she knows she's not going to be hurt and I made it
> fun. Additionally, there isn't anything she likes better than to have
> an adult invested in her happiness so she will leave a toy with no
> hesitation to interact with us. Years of neglect and abuse have made
> her crave attention and affection...more than your normal 3 yr old who
> is already beginning to pull away and find their autonomy. She is
> also only about 12 months old developmentally so that changes the
> situation significantly.
>
> And it's not healthy for her to keep sublimating her physical needs
> because she had to for 3.5 yrs. It's important to teach her/show her
> that her body is important and worthy of taking care of. Shame,
> sadnessm and worthlessness is common in abandoned children. There is
> way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused child
> than in your average blank slate bio kid.
>
> Karen
>
>
> On Feb 16, 2008 10:30 AM, Karen Buxcel <thewildtribe@...<thewildtribe%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Karen,
> > It's Karen (from S.D this time!) I just wanted to do a very quick reply
> to
> > this, and maybe you've already thought of this, but wanted to share
> anyway.
> >
> > On Feb 15, 2008 11:23 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...<luvbullbreeds%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > My 3 yr old would rather not have
> > > her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
> > > doesn't want to have it changed?
> > >
> >
> > **My 3 yo seldom wants his diaper changed. I used to wonder the same
> thing,
> > "hmmm, maybe if I just leave him in it long enough he'll get so
> disgusted
> > with it, he'll beg to be changed. Nope. And really, that just felt, to
> me,
> > like a mean thing to do. Sage really didn't object, after all, to having
> > his diaper changed, he objected to leaving said activity to have his
> diaper
> > changed. If I'm trying to get him to come into the bathroom with me so I
> > can wipe him where *I think it's convenient, forget it. So, I finally
> > learned (yes! still learning!) to do it completely on his terms. I soak
> > the cloths with warm water, and go to where he is. While he plays or
> > watches tv, or whatever it is he's doing, I pull off the diaper, wipe
> him up
> > and he's done. No coercion at all, he's happy to stand there,
> uninterrupted
> > in what he was doing, while I take care of the rest. Win/Win!
> >
> > She doesn't want to be treated for a
> > > nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
> > > wants the meds she'll ask?"
> > >
> >
> > **And I even have a reply for this! :) Right now we've been kissed with
> the
> > gift of chicken pox in our house. My 6yo (middle son) wants nothing to
> do
> > with ANY remedy or comforting solution I offer him. But, I just keep
> > offering. After all, he knows his body better than I know his body, and
> I
> > have to trust that if he really doesn't feel like taking an oatmeal
> bath, he
> > probably doesn't need one. Day 1 of spots, he takes nothing. Day 2 of
> > spots, he takes nothing. Last night, day 3 of spots, he looks at me with
> > discomfort in his eyes, so I ask him if he'd like an oatmeal bath. He
> nods
> > yes. And he even took some Rhus Tox when I offered it to him. Sure, I
> > could have held him down and forced medicine into him when *I* thought
> he
> > needed medicine, but that would have made me look like an ***hole in his
> > eyes and heart. Instead, I was his helper, there to offer him help and
> > comfort when he's ready for it.
> >
> > There's always an option, another way of looking at things and of doing
> > things. It doesn't have to be from the angle of "it's for your own
> good".
> > I would really hate it if my husband did or said those kinds of things
> to
> > me. But if he said, "Sweetie, I can tell you're in a lot of pain, can we
> > try this? No? How about this? This? This?" until we've both agreed on
> > something.
> >
> > Hope your day is beautiful, and kiss your 3yo for me! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE
> 3
> > year olds!
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>



--
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know
peace."
Jimi Hendrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

What the hell? Are you serious? After weeks of discussion are you
really wanting to say this... on THIS board?

>There is way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused
>child than in your average blank slate bio kid.
>
> Karen
>

Karen Swanay

Yeah I do. What's wrong with that? Are you suggesting that a baby
who has never known being beaten with a broom is in the same place as
a child for whom this was a regular occurrance?

On Feb 16, 2008 11:02 AM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> What the hell? Are you serious? After weeks of discussion are you
> really wanting to say this... on THIS board?
>
>
> >There is way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused
> >child than in your average blank slate bio kid.
> >
> > Karen
> >
>
>
>
>

Karen Swanay

Karen,

Because she's Asian we don't do dairy with her. She's on Soy but she
was on dairy when she was in China. I believe this will be the last
ear infection she will have because of withdrawing the dairy.

No we don't do slings, cosleeping or skin to skin contact. She finds
being restrained terrifying and she's just now coming around to the
idea of being held as not being scary. We have let her take the lead
on that. Climbing on and off of us as she sees fit and not pushing
her to display affection she doesn't feel or frightens her. She
doesn't like skin to skin contact for the same reason but when she
finally gets there we will certainly indulge in it. CoSleeping is the
same...it makes her feel uncomfortable but her bed is in our room so
she's not alone. And for now that's as far as she's willing to go.
She started last week to crawl up in the bed in the morning, but not
for cuddling. But I expect that will come in time.

Karen

swissarmy_wife

Knowing the way most people feel about their children on this board,
I'm just surprised (actually not so surprised) that you would come to
call children blank slates.

"average blank slate bio kid"

Karen Swanay

Yes a blank slate as in born into the family they are living with,
with no unknown history and no major life events that the family is
not aware of. Doesn't surprise me at all that you chose to get
offended about it. I guess plain to the point language is only OK if
it's from you.

Karen

On Feb 16, 2008 11:16 AM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Knowing the way most people feel about their children on this board,
> I'm just surprised (actually not so surprised) that you would come to
> call children blank slates.
>
>
> "average blank slate bio kid"
>
>
>
>

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
There is
> way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused child
> than in your average blank slate bio kid.
>
> Karen
>


I hear you keep saying this sentence and I think you are wrong-- ALL
kids come with history (personal belief in reincarnation) or at
least their own personality-

I do not think any kid is a blank slate that you write on though
this is what our culture was thought for many years- each of my kids
came with who they are- my littlest is 3 and even as a tiny baby she
did not want to cuddle or really be held- as she grew she did not
want to be comforted by me but by hiding somewhere- some would say
that this was because she had an older sister and I spent more time
with her then the little one but that is not true it was just who
she was.

you child came with issues that we hear you are working with- part
of the problem is that you are assuming that it only works with bio
nice kids and it doesn't- you could have explained how you had an
adopted abused kid and were trying to be as unschooly as possible
but there were issues you were dealing with-

my mom asks every so often if I unschool because I do not think I
can control them- I assure her that I could force them to comply and
be punished but I choose not too. my 5 yr old refuses to be
somewhere with out me- daddy is now deployed again and she thinks I
might disappear if hse is not close by- some say I should force her
to go to a class alone "for her own good" but it is not really for
her own good but for their mindset.

Julie

Karen Swanay

True. However, if your child is born into your family, and you've
taken care of the child it's whole life (no daycare)...then you know
for certain if the child has been hit with a broom. Either it hasn't
been hit with a broom or you did it. But it's no mystery. You don't
wonder what kind of misery your child went through. You don't wonder
when she cries from the depth of her soul what she is mourning. You
don't have to look your child in the eyes and try to answer why her
"real" mother didn't want her. Or try to answer why if you love her
so much, you won't take her to see her real mother. If a child is
born to you, that child's history is not a mystery. "Blank slate"
means you have been there to see the history and experiences laid down
in your child's life. You know what happened the first time she went
swimming. Or why she's scared of bumblebees. You know because you
were there and you helped write her history. And if you don't see how
it's different then I don't know how to make it more clear.

On Feb 16, 2008 12:50 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> >
> There is
> > way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused child
> > than in your average blank slate bio kid.
> >
> > Karen
> >
>
> I hear you keep saying this sentence and I think you are wrong-- ALL
> kids come with history (personal belief in reincarnation) or at
> least their own personality-
>
> I do not think any kid is a blank slate that you write on though
> this is what our culture was thought for many years- each of my kids
> came with who they are- my littlest is 3 and even as a tiny baby she
> did not want to cuddle or really be held- as she grew she did not
> want to be comforted by me but by hiding somewhere- some would say
> that this was because she had an older sister and I spent more time
> with her then the little one but that is not true it was just who
> she was.
>
> you child came with issues that we hear you are working with- part
> of the problem is that you are assuming that it only works with bio
> nice kids and it doesn't- you could have explained how you had an
> adopted abused kid and were trying to be as unschooly as possible
> but there were issues you were dealing with-
>
> my mom asks every so often if I unschool because I do not think I
> can control them- I assure her that I could force them to comply and
> be punished but I choose not too. my 5 yr old refuses to be
> somewhere with out me- daddy is now deployed again and she thinks I
> might disappear if hse is not close by- some say I should force her
> to go to a class alone "for her own good" but it is not really for
> her own good but for their mindset.
>
> Julie
>
>

wisdomalways5

I think you are placing too much on what happened to the child
before you- my 3 yr old has convinced me that she has had some sort
of past trauma- when we would play fight and older brother pretended
to have a gun with noise she would run over and cover me with her
body- over and over she was protecting me- she hated guns- she likes
no loves to jump on heads and when hurt she wants to hide and lick
her wounds and then come out- I call her our little war refugee- now
I know this did not happen in this life but something is obviously
coming through-

I think her behaviors in this life are from whatever she lived with
before but I still just take her where she is and love her and deal
with it- she is the one who led me to unschooling- I had to change
because of who she is or was.

yes you knew she had a history but us birth parents sometimes do not
know why are children are fearful either- my daughters are scared to
death of swimming pools- I have no idea why

how would you act if you did not know she was abused?

Yes what happened to her was horrible you taking her from it was
probably the best and worst- in her eyes it had to be pretty
traumatic to have a stranger take you away from what you know and
take care of you- having a stanger change you and feed you and keep
you in a strange home is traumatic- you are causing trauma to her
just by the nature of adopting her- so yes she had trauma and you
have given her trauma and you are trying to heal her and love her
but don't get lost in the abuse she suffered.

maybe looking at your part in this will help you see her- you choose
her she did not choose you- she does not know you can not
communicate with you nothing is familiar

maybe she does not want her diaper changed because she does not know
who you are- maybe she did not like the plane ride because she she
did not know who you were- she does not trust what you are giving
her is good for her-

who told you about the abuse anyway and are you sure it happened and
not a way to get americans to adopt kids-- just wondering- I just
wondering since it seems strange the staff would say yeah we beat
then with a broom when we change them and yeah we tie them up too. I
just wondered how you knew what happened to her.

Julie







--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> True. However, if your child is born into your family, and you've
> taken care of the child it's whole life (no daycare)...then you
know
> for certain if the child has been hit with a broom. Either it
hasn't
> been hit with a broom or you did it. But it's no mystery. You
don't
> wonder what kind of misery your child went through. You don't
wonder
> when she cries from the depth of her soul what she is mourning.
You
> don't have to look your child in the eyes and try to answer why her
> "real" mother didn't want her. Or try to answer why if you love
her
> so much, you won't take her to see her real mother. If a child is
> born to you, that child's history is not a mystery. "Blank slate"
> means you have been there to see the history and experiences laid
down
> in your child's life. You know what happened the first time she
went
> swimming. Or why she's scared of bumblebees. You know because you
> were there and you helped write her history. And if you don't see
how
> it's different then I don't know how to make it more clear.
>
> On Feb 16, 2008 12:50 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> > <luvbullbreeds@> wrote:
> > >
> > There is
> > > way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused
child
> > > than in your average blank slate bio kid.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> >
> > I hear you keep saying this sentence and I think you are wrong--
ALL
> > kids come with history (personal belief in reincarnation) or at
> > least their own personality-
> >
> > I do not think any kid is a blank slate that you write on though
> > this is what our culture was thought for many years- each of my
kids
> > came with who they are- my littlest is 3 and even as a tiny baby
she
> > did not want to cuddle or really be held- as she grew she did not
> > want to be comforted by me but by hiding somewhere- some would
say
> > that this was because she had an older sister and I spent more
time
> > with her then the little one but that is not true it was just who
> > she was.
> >
> > you child came with issues that we hear you are working with-
part
> > of the problem is that you are assuming that it only works with
bio
> > nice kids and it doesn't- you could have explained how you had an
> > adopted abused kid and were trying to be as unschooly as possible
> > but there were issues you were dealing with-
> >
> > my mom asks every so often if I unschool because I do not think I
> > can control them- I assure her that I could force them to comply
and
> > be punished but I choose not too. my 5 yr old refuses to be
> > somewhere with out me- daddy is now deployed again and she
thinks I
> > might disappear if hse is not close by- some say I should force
her
> > to go to a class alone "for her own good" but it is not really
for
> > her own good but for their mindset.
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
>

Jodi Bezzola

~how would you act if you did not know she was abused?~

I think this is *such* a thought-provoking and excellent question to ask! It just filled me up to see the little girl - while with the knowledge that she has been very mistreated and the complete history is unknown - as being whole and perfect, just the way she *is*.

I firmly believe that we *all* want the same thing no matter what our history, no matter what our age, no matter *what*, and that is to be honoured, heard, listened to, loved, accepted for exactly who we are in that moment.

Jodi




---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Gray

Actually, I have two bio kids with autism, and even with no history,
there is a ton of mystery.

I have no idea why she's scared of all the things she is, I have no
idea why she's sad or angry or happy, about 75% of the time. It
doesn't make it any easier. The funny thing is, that it's the same
with all of my kids, not just the ones that are differently abled.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/




On Feb 16, 2008, at 2:18 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> True. However, if your child is born into your family, and you've
> taken care of the child it's whole life (no daycare)...then you know
> for certain if the child has been hit with a broom. Either it hasn't
> been hit with a broom or you did it. But it's no mystery. You don't
> wonder what kind of misery your child went through. You don't wonder
> when she cries from the depth of her soul what she is mourning. You
> don't have to look your child in the eyes and try to answer why her
> "real" mother didn't want her. Or try to answer why if you love her
> so much, you won't take her to see her real mother. If a child is
> born to you, that child's history is not a mystery. "Blank slate"
> means you have been there to see the history and experiences laid down
> in your child's life. You know what happened the first time she went
> swimming. Or why she's scared of bumblebees. You know because you
> were there and you helped write her history. And if you don't see how
> it's different then I don't know how to make it more clear.
>
> On Feb 16, 2008 12:50 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> > <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> > >
> > There is
> > > way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused child
> > > than in your average blank slate bio kid.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> >
> > I hear you keep saying this sentence and I think you are wrong-- ALL
> > kids come with history (personal belief in reincarnation) or at
> > least their own personality-
> >
> > I do not think any kid is a blank slate that you write on though
> > this is what our culture was thought for many years- each of my kids
> > came with who they are- my littlest is 3 and even as a tiny baby she
> > did not want to cuddle or really be held- as she grew she did not
> > want to be comforted by me but by hiding somewhere- some would say
> > that this was because she had an older sister and I spent more time
> > with her then the little one but that is not true it was just who
> > she was.
> >
> > you child came with issues that we hear you are working with- part
> > of the problem is that you are assuming that it only works with bio
> > nice kids and it doesn't- you could have explained how you had an
> > adopted abused kid and were trying to be as unschooly as possible
> > but there were issues you were dealing with-
> >
> > my mom asks every so often if I unschool because I do not think I
> > can control them- I assure her that I could force them to comply and
> > be punished but I choose not too. my 5 yr old refuses to be
> > somewhere with out me- daddy is now deployed again and she thinks I
> > might disappear if hse is not close by- some say I should force her
> > to go to a class alone "for her own good" but it is not really for
> > her own good but for their mindset.
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

With all due respect Julie, you are minimizing what happened to my
daughter by saying it's not important or comparing it to some what?
Past life thing with your kid?

And I'm trying not to read you wrong but you sound like you are
castigating me for adopting her and treating her fears as real. As
far as how I know she was abused, I do. Wounds, scars on scars,
misshapen skull.

As far as "my part in this" I know you don't mean to offend but you
make me sound as though I don't know any of this. I have lived this
adoption daily for YEARS. I know well what to expect and what not to
expect.

Your last paragraph is so insulting I don't know what to say. "a way
to get Americans to adopt children?????!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'm trying to
remember that not everyone knows what goes into international adoption
so I'm sure you didn't mean to be flip. Everything that happened to
her is common....and some kids get worse. A friend of mine's son was
cut with scissors when he did bad things. He was 4. Older kids can
tell you what happened to them and others in the SWIs. And I know she
was tied because an older child told me. But I can't believe I have
to defend this to you.

I don't treat her as an abused child but it is something I have to be
aware of. And I think I'm done discussing this now because I'm
feeling defensive about her now and that's not a good thing for e-mail
communication. Thank you for your thoughts.

Karen

On Feb 16, 2008 2:58 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
> yes you knew she had a history but us birth parents sometimes do not
> know why are children are fearful either- my daughters are scared to
> death of swimming pools- I have no idea why
>
> how would you act if you did not know she was abused?
>
> Yes what happened to her was horrible you taking her from it was
> probably the best and worst- in her eyes it had to be pretty
> traumatic to have a stranger take you away from what you know and
> take care of you- having a stanger change you and feed you and keep
> you in a strange home is traumatic- you are causing trauma to her
> just by the nature of adopting her- so yes she had trauma and you
> have given her trauma and you are trying to heal her and love her
> but don't get lost in the abuse she suffered.
>
> maybe looking at your part in this will help you see her- you choose
> her she did not choose you- she does not know you can not
> communicate with you nothing is familiar
>
> maybe she does not want her diaper changed because she does not know
> who you are- maybe she did not like the plane ride because she she
> did not know who you were- she does not trust what you are giving
> her is good for her-
>
> who told you about the abuse anyway and are you sure it happened and
> not a way to get americans to adopt kids-- just wondering- I just
> wondering since it seems strange the staff would say yeah we beat
> then with a broom when we change them and yeah we tie them up too. I
> just wondered how you knew what happened to her.
>
> Julie
>
> --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> >
> > True. However, if your child is born into your family, and you've
> > taken care of the child it's whole life (no daycare)...then you
> know
> > for certain if the child has been hit with a broom. Either it
> hasn't
> > been hit with a broom or you did it. But it's no mystery. You
> don't
> > wonder what kind of misery your child went through. You don't
> wonder
> > when she cries from the depth of her soul what she is mourning.
> You
> > don't have to look your child in the eyes and try to answer why her
> > "real" mother didn't want her. Or try to answer why if you love
> her
> > so much, you won't take her to see her real mother. If a child is
> > born to you, that child's history is not a mystery. "Blank slate"
> > means you have been there to see the history and experiences laid
> down
> > in your child's life. You know what happened the first time she
> went
> > swimming. Or why she's scared of bumblebees. You know because you
> > were there and you helped write her history. And if you don't see
> how
> > it's different then I don't know how to make it more clear.
> >
> > On Feb 16, 2008 12:50 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> > > <luvbullbreeds@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > There is
> > > > way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused
> child
> > > > than in your average blank slate bio kid.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > >
> > > I hear you keep saying this sentence and I think you are wrong--
> ALL
> > > kids come with history (personal belief in reincarnation) or at
> > > least their own personality-
> > >
> > > I do not think any kid is a blank slate that you write on though
> > > this is what our culture was thought for many years- each of my
> kids
> > > came with who they are- my littlest is 3 and even as a tiny baby
> she
> > > did not want to cuddle or really be held- as she grew she did not
> > > want to be comforted by me but by hiding somewhere- some would
> say
> > > that this was because she had an older sister and I spent more
> time
> > > with her then the little one but that is not true it was just who
> > > she was.
> > >
> > > you child came with issues that we hear you are working with-
> part
> > > of the problem is that you are assuming that it only works with
> bio
> > > nice kids and it doesn't- you could have explained how you had an
> > > adopted abused kid and were trying to be as unschooly as possible
> > > but there were issues you were dealing with-
> > >
> > > my mom asks every so often if I unschool because I do not think I
> > > can control them- I assure her that I could force them to comply
> and
> > > be punished but I choose not too. my 5 yr old refuses to be
> > > somewhere with out me- daddy is now deployed again and she
> thinks I
> > > might disappear if hse is not close by- some say I should force
> her
> > > to go to a class alone "for her own good" but it is not really
> for
> > > her own good but for their mindset.
> > >
> > > Julie
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Jodi Bezzola

Karen, it sounds as if you've already decided your situation is more unique than anyone else has every experienced, and that no can understand or say anything helpful. I have heard *so* much helpful sharing of experience and you're just so quick to cut it down as criticism of you. I'm really curious why you continue to want to engage in discussion with members of this list whom you so clearly disagree with and find fault with just about everything that is said to try and help you? Are you really interested in hearing an unschooling perspective??

Jodi

Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
With all due respect Julie, you are minimizing what happened to my
daughter by saying it's not important or comparing it to some what?
Past life thing with your kid?

And I'm trying not to read you wrong but you sound like you are
castigating me for adopting her and treating her fears as real. As
far as how I know she was abused, I do. Wounds, scars on scars,
misshapen skull.

As far as "my part in this" I know you don't mean to offend but you
make me sound as though I don't know any of this. I have lived this
adoption daily for YEARS. I know well what to expect and what not to
expect.

Your last paragraph is so insulting I don't know what to say. "a way
to get Americans to adopt children?????!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'm trying to
remember that not everyone knows what goes into international adoption
so I'm sure you didn't mean to be flip. Everything that happened to
her is common....and some kids get worse. A friend of mine's son was
cut with scissors when he did bad things. He was 4. Older kids can
tell you what happened to them and others in the SWIs. And I know she
was tied because an older child told me. But I can't believe I have
to defend this to you.

I don't treat her as an abused child but it is something I have to be
aware of. And I think I'm done discussing this now because I'm
feeling defensive about her now and that's not a good thing for e-mail
communication. Thank you for your thoughts.

Karen

On Feb 16, 2008 2:58 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
> yes you knew she had a history but us birth parents sometimes do not
> know why are children are fearful either- my daughters are scared to
> death of swimming pools- I have no idea why
>
> how would you act if you did not know she was abused?
>
> Yes what happened to her was horrible you taking her from it was
> probably the best and worst- in her eyes it had to be pretty
> traumatic to have a stranger take you away from what you know and
> take care of you- having a stanger change you and feed you and keep
> you in a strange home is traumatic- you are causing trauma to her
> just by the nature of adopting her- so yes she had trauma and you
> have given her trauma and you are trying to heal her and love her
> but don't get lost in the abuse she suffered.
>
> maybe looking at your part in this will help you see her- you choose
> her she did not choose you- she does not know you can not
> communicate with you nothing is familiar
>
> maybe she does not want her diaper changed because she does not know
> who you are- maybe she did not like the plane ride because she she
> did not know who you were- she does not trust what you are giving
> her is good for her-
>
> who told you about the abuse anyway and are you sure it happened and
> not a way to get americans to adopt kids-- just wondering- I just
> wondering since it seems strange the staff would say yeah we beat
> then with a broom when we change them and yeah we tie them up too. I
> just wondered how you knew what happened to her.
>
> Julie
>
> --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> >
> > True. However, if your child is born into your family, and you've
> > taken care of the child it's whole life (no daycare)...then you
> know
> > for certain if the child has been hit with a broom. Either it
> hasn't
> > been hit with a broom or you did it. But it's no mystery. You
> don't
> > wonder what kind of misery your child went through. You don't
> wonder
> > when she cries from the depth of her soul what she is mourning.
> You
> > don't have to look your child in the eyes and try to answer why her
> > "real" mother didn't want her. Or try to answer why if you love
> her
> > so much, you won't take her to see her real mother. If a child is
> > born to you, that child's history is not a mystery. "Blank slate"
> > means you have been there to see the history and experiences laid
> down
> > in your child's life. You know what happened the first time she
> went
> > swimming. Or why she's scared of bumblebees. You know because you
> > were there and you helped write her history. And if you don't see
> how
> > it's different then I don't know how to make it more clear.
> >
> > On Feb 16, 2008 12:50 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> > > <luvbullbreeds@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > There is
> > > > way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused
> child
> > > > than in your average blank slate bio kid.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > >
> > > I hear you keep saying this sentence and I think you are wrong--
> ALL
> > > kids come with history (personal belief in reincarnation) or at
> > > least their own personality-
> > >
> > > I do not think any kid is a blank slate that you write on though
> > > this is what our culture was thought for many years- each of my
> kids
> > > came with who they are- my littlest is 3 and even as a tiny baby
> she
> > > did not want to cuddle or really be held- as she grew she did not
> > > want to be comforted by me but by hiding somewhere- some would
> say
> > > that this was because she had an older sister and I spent more
> time
> > > with her then the little one but that is not true it was just who
> > > she was.
> > >
> > > you child came with issues that we hear you are working with-
> part
> > > of the problem is that you are assuming that it only works with
> bio
> > > nice kids and it doesn't- you could have explained how you had an
> > > adopted abused kid and were trying to be as unschooly as possible
> > > but there were issues you were dealing with-
> > >
> > > my mom asks every so often if I unschool because I do not think I
> > > can control them- I assure her that I could force them to comply
> and
> > > be punished but I choose not too. my 5 yr old refuses to be
> > > somewhere with out me- daddy is now deployed again and she
> thinks I
> > > might disappear if hse is not close by- some say I should force
> her
> > > to go to a class alone "for her own good" but it is not really
> for
> > > her own good but for their mindset.
> > >
> > > Julie
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>





---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

I've been trying to find the way to say something similar to this.
But I keep getting so frustrated that i just want to scream! I
finally figured out why this is affecting me so much and why I haven't
yet been able to walk away. This is EXACTLY how my mother treated me
my entire life. Everytime, I opened my mouth, from the time i was a
small child, she blamed me for insulting her, cutting her down, making
her feel bad and that's putting it lightly. She (my mother)has a
covert aggressive personality. I am still dealing with it to this
very day and only in the last few years been able to shake the guilt.

I really think some doors would open if Karen would stop being a
victim of her own circumstances (and of us).


--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola
<jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
> Karen, it sounds as if you've already decided your situation is more
unique than anyone else has every experienced, and that no can
understand or say anything helpful. I have heard *so* much helpful
sharing of experience and you're just so quick to cut it down as
criticism of you. I'm really curious why you continue to want to
engage in discussion with members of this list whom you so clearly
disagree with and find fault with just about everything that is said
to try and help you? Are you really interested in hearing an
unschooling perspective??
>
> Jodi

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> With all due respect Julie, you are minimizing what happened to my
> daughter by saying it's not important or comparing it to some what?
> Past life thing with your kid?
>


you are right it sounded much more flip then I meant-

i think this thread did not start with talking about your daughter
anyway and it just evolved into that- I understand that I have no
idea what I am talking about- I just wondered how you knew exactly
what had happened to her - as opposed to just knowing hse had been
abused in some way.

this was really not about you asking for help with regards to your
daughter as much as your seeking to see if it was the same to all
situations-

I really do not want to minimize what she went through or any other
child as much as say yeah things happened but I want to give her as
much freedom as I can- which is really what I hear you saying you do-
except for the few instances when you wondered if it counted in
medical situations

Julie

Karen Swanay

How is suggesting that the abuse is made up to get americans to adopt
kids unschooly? How is it anything but insulting? How is saying her
real abuse is not important? How is saying being abandoned is
unimportant unschooly. Seems to me that's EVERYTHING but unschooly.
It does not honor her as a person. What she feels, what she thinks.
What she will question later in life.

Saying how would I treat her if I didn't know she had been abused...IS
critism. It's saying that's all I do. And telling me that she
doesn't know who we are etc...presupposes that I didn't already know
this ergo I have not done my homework. It's not that I don't want to
hear from people, but people who know nothing about adoption, and IA
in specific should not be offering that I don't know what I'm doing.
I would never tell one of you that you don't know your child. Never.

It's not that I don't want advice...I just don't get it. You all
freak about changing a diaper but tell me not to be concerned about
abuse and loss. It seems backwards.

Karen


On Feb 16, 2008 6:44 PM, Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Karen, it sounds as if you've already decided your situation is more unique
> than anyone else has every experienced, and that no can understand or say
> anything helpful. I have heard *so* much helpful sharing of experience and
> you're just so quick to cut it down as criticism of you. I'm really curious
> why you continue to want to engage in discussion with members of this list
> whom you so clearly disagree with and find fault with just about everything
> that is said to try and help you? Are you really interested in hearing an
> unschooling perspective??
>
> Jodi
>
> Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> With all due respect Julie, you are minimizing what happened to my
> daughter by saying it's not important or comparing it to some what?
> Past life thing with your kid?
>
> And I'm trying not to read you wrong but you sound like you are
> castigating me for adopting her and treating her fears as real. As
> far as how I know she was abused, I do. Wounds, scars on scars,
> misshapen skull.
>
> As far as "my part in this" I know you don't mean to offend but you
> make me sound as though I don't know any of this. I have lived this
> adoption daily for YEARS. I know well what to expect and what not to
> expect.
>
> Your last paragraph is so insulting I don't know what to say. "a way
> to get Americans to adopt children?????!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'm trying to
> remember that not everyone knows what goes into international adoption
> so I'm sure you didn't mean to be flip. Everything that happened to
> her is common....and some kids get worse. A friend of mine's son was
> cut with scissors when he did bad things. He was 4. Older kids can
> tell you what happened to them and others in the SWIs. And I know she
> was tied because an older child told me. But I can't believe I have
> to defend this to you.
>
> I don't treat her as an abused child but it is something I have to be
> aware of. And I think I'm done discussing this now because I'm
> feeling defensive about her now and that's not a good thing for e-mail
> communication. Thank you for your thoughts.
>
> Karen
>
> On Feb 16, 2008 2:58 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
> > yes you knew she had a history but us birth parents sometimes do not
> > know why are children are fearful either- my daughters are scared to
> > death of swimming pools- I have no idea why
> >
> > how would you act if you did not know she was abused?
> >
> > Yes what happened to her was horrible you taking her from it was
> > probably the best and worst- in her eyes it had to be pretty
> > traumatic to have a stranger take you away from what you know and
> > take care of you- having a stanger change you and feed you and keep
> > you in a strange home is traumatic- you are causing trauma to her
> > just by the nature of adopting her- so yes she had trauma and you
> > have given her trauma and you are trying to heal her and love her
> > but don't get lost in the abuse she suffered.
> >
> > maybe looking at your part in this will help you see her- you choose
> > her she did not choose you- she does not know you can not
> > communicate with you nothing is familiar
> >
> > maybe she does not want her diaper changed because she does not know
> > who you are- maybe she did not like the plane ride because she she
> > did not know who you were- she does not trust what you are giving
> > her is good for her-
> >
> > who told you about the abuse anyway and are you sure it happened and
> > not a way to get americans to adopt kids-- just wondering- I just
> > wondering since it seems strange the staff would say yeah we beat
> > then with a broom when we change them and yeah we tie them up too. I
> > just wondered how you knew what happened to her.
> >
> > Julie
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> > <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > True. However, if your child is born into your family, and you've
> > > taken care of the child it's whole life (no daycare)...then you
> > know
> > > for certain if the child has been hit with a broom. Either it
> > hasn't
> > > been hit with a broom or you did it. But it's no mystery. You
> > don't
> > > wonder what kind of misery your child went through. You don't
> > wonder
> > > when she cries from the depth of her soul what she is mourning.
> > You
> > > don't have to look your child in the eyes and try to answer why her
> > > "real" mother didn't want her. Or try to answer why if you love
> > her
> > > so much, you won't take her to see her real mother. If a child is
> > > born to you, that child's history is not a mystery. "Blank slate"
> > > means you have been there to see the history and experiences laid
> > down
> > > in your child's life. You know what happened the first time she
> > went
> > > swimming. Or why she's scared of bumblebees. You know because you
> > > were there and you helped write her history. And if you don't see
> > how
> > > it's different then I don't know how to make it more clear.
> > >
> > > On Feb 16, 2008 12:50 PM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> > > > <luvbullbreeds@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > There is
> > > > > way more to consider and overcome in an abandoned and abused
> > child
> > > > > than in your average blank slate bio kid.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I hear you keep saying this sentence and I think you are wrong--
> > ALL
> > > > kids come with history (personal belief in reincarnation) or at
> > > > least their own personality-
> > > >
> > > > I do not think any kid is a blank slate that you write on though
> > > > this is what our culture was thought for many years- each of my
> > kids
> > > > came with who they are- my littlest is 3 and even as a tiny baby
> > she
> > > > did not want to cuddle or really be held- as she grew she did not
> > > > want to be comforted by me but by hiding somewhere- some would
> > say
> > > > that this was because she had an older sister and I spent more
> > time
> > > > with her then the little one but that is not true it was just who
> > > > she was.
> > > >
> > > > you child came with issues that we hear you are working with-
> > part
> > > > of the problem is that you are assuming that it only works with
> > bio
> > > > nice kids and it doesn't- you could have explained how you had an
> > > > adopted abused kid and were trying to be as unschooly as possible
> > > > but there were issues you were dealing with-
> > > >
> > > > my mom asks every so often if I unschool because I do not think I
> > > > can control them- I assure her that I could force them to comply
> > and
> > > > be punished but I choose not too. my 5 yr old refuses to be
> > > > somewhere with out me- daddy is now deployed again and she
> > thinks I
> > > > might disappear if hse is not close by- some say I should force
> > her
> > > > to go to a class alone "for her own good" but it is not really
> > for
> > > > her own good but for their mindset.
> > > >
> > > > Julie
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 16, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> "Blank slate"
> means you have been there to see the history and experiences laid down
> in your child's life.

That's a "known slate" - not a "blank" one.

Maybe you inadvertently used the term, not realizing that there is a
long-standing debate on whether children are born as "blank slates."

<<<<
"Children & Blank Slate Evolution
by Will Meek
March 4, 2007
The �blank slate� view of human development was first documented in
the late 17th and early 18th centuries, and is generally credited to
Locke and Rousseau. The idea is that a child is born completely free
of any predisposition or vulnerabilities, and that everything the
child would become was due to the effects of the environment. With
advances in biotechnology, neuroscience, evolutionary theory, and
psychology, this view has all but been completely discredited today.

Most people are now thought to have significant �pre-programming� from
genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling,
thought, and action. However, although we are bombarded right now by
news about gene X being responsible for enjoying Saturday morning
cartoons, it is important to remember that families, communities,
peers, schools, culture, and parents have at LEAST an equal part of
making us who we are, even if Rousseau was wrong.">>>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 16, 2008, at 4:29 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> With all due respect Julie, you are minimizing what happened to my
> daughter by saying it's not important or comparing it to some what?
> Past life thing with your kid?

Karen - a friendly word of advice - try finding what useful ideas you
can get from other people's posts and letting the rest slide by. It'll
truly be much more valuable to you. I know it is hard to ignore what
seem to be insults or misunderstandings, but you'll get a lot more
benefit out of the time spent here if you put your focus on
stimulating ideas that make you think, instead.

>
> As far as "my part in this" I know you don't mean to offend but you
> make me sound as though I don't know any of this. I have lived this
> adoption daily for YEARS. I know well what to expect and what not to
> expect.

I'm not doubting you - but a little confused. Isn't she only three?
And didn't she live some years under terrible conditions you've
described? It doesn't really matter, but I think we might be forgiven
for not knowing she's been with you for years - which is most of her
life.

A point you seem to be missing, one that Julie may have intended, is
that the basic principles of unschooling apply equally to all of our
children, no matter the circumstances of their early childhood or
their genetic make up or what happened to them in the womb or, as
Julie believes, in a previous life. It isn't that the challenges our
children face, or that we face in supporting them, are all equally
difficult, but unschooling sits firmly on a basic understanding of how
children learn and if you don't agree with that, if you are really
convinced that other children learn that way, but not this child, then
I'm wondering why you're here on an unschooling list dedicated to
helping people deepen their understanding and practice of radical
unschooling? You seem to be here more for the purpose of convincing us
that there are kids for whom unschooling just won't work. If that's
so, I think it isn't surprising that you feel like the responses are
hostile, because they are predicated on the assumption that people are
here specifically to hear direct and unadulterated unschooling advice.


-pam

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

On Feb 16, 2008 10:57 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> On Feb 16, 2008, at 4:29 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> > As far as "my part in this" I know you don't mean to offend but you
> > make me sound as though I don't know any of this. I have lived this
> > adoption daily for YEARS. I know well what to expect and what not to
> > expect.
>
> I'm not doubting you - but a little confused. Isn't she only three?
> And didn't she live some years under terrible conditions you've
> described? It doesn't really matter, but I think we might be forgiven
> for not knowing she's been with you for years - which is most of her
> life.
**Yes she's only been home a month. But I've been learning about
attachment etc for years in preparation for this adoption. I don't
need to be told she doesn't know who we are. That kind of thing.

> A point you seem to be missing, one that Julie may have intended, is
> that the basic principles of unschooling apply equally to all of our
> children, no matter the circumstances of their early childhood or
> their genetic make up or what happened to them in the womb or, as
> Julie believes, in a previous life. It isn't that the challenges our
> children face, or that we face in supporting them, are all equally
> difficult, but unschooling sits firmly on a basic understanding of how
> children learn and if you don't agree with that, if you are really
> convinced that other children learn that way, but not this child, then
> I'm wondering why you're here on an unschooling list dedicated to
> helping people deepen their understanding and practice of radical
> unschooling? You seem to be here more for the purpose of convincing us
> that there are kids for whom unschooling just won't work. If that's
> so, I think it isn't surprising that you feel like the responses are
> hostile, because they are predicated on the assumption that people are
> here specifically to hear direct and unadulterated unschooling advice.

**Absolutely not. I'm not saying unschooling won't work for every
child at all, although I believe it will look different based on the
needs of the child. My 11 yr old doesn't need much in the way of
structure, but my 9 yr old craves structure so I have to do diffrent
things for each of them. What I have said and people continue to
either ignore it or tell me I'm wrong or a horrible parent, is that
there are times when letting a child have complete control is not only
irresponsible but negligent. There are times, and it varies with the
age of the child, that as a parent you MUST say "No way..." such as
running in a busy street. Now, if you've managed to come up with a
way to make sure that the kid stays out of the street and you don't
have to say NO, that's nifty but you are still saying NO. Whether you
admit it or not. Does it matter if they eat nothing but marshmallows
for three days? No, not usually. Does it matter if the kid in
question happens to be diabetic? You bet your ass it does. To say it
doesn't and allow any kind of diet because you never want to say NO is
to kill your child.

My point with my daughter, is that while your average 3 yr old can be
left in a dirty diaper because they will eventually come to you and
ask to be cleaned up, because of the abuse and neglect, my daughter
doesn't read the signals her body is sending her and thus has to be
taught what being clean feels like and that a diaper change doesn't
mean a beating. AND that does NOT make me a horrible parent. It took
4 diaper changes where she would rather we didn't, was fearful etc. to
show her that there is a different way than what she's used to. And
if some of you wouldn't ever do that to your kid that's fine. But I
know that adopted kids, neglected adopted kids need to be reparented
and get their needs met as an infant is supposed to. Infants cry when
their diapers are dirty. They want to be changed. Mommy comes and
changes them. They learn they can count on an adult and they matter.
My daughter may be 3.5 yrs old but not emotionally and not
developmentally. AND she still needs to be reparented. Because she
doesn't cry about a dirty diaper is DEEPLY sad. It's not OK. It's
not a sign that something else is more important as others have
suggested. Yes, that's true for typical 3.5 yr olds. I had two of
them. I remember those days. This IS different. She does have to
have a different plan than a kid born into a family that has already
learned trust.

That a bunch of people have said "pfft that's not true!" Doesn't make
it not so. And if you ask anyone with adoption experience they all
know the reparenting is vital to the bonding and eventual development
of the whole person. So it's not that it won't work for her, she is
mostly unschooled now anyway because it is the best for our bonding.
There are times it can not be applied because it interferes with the
reparenting. And teaching her that her body is hers and her needs
will be met is important. In some arenas of life, such as diapering,
she had to be reparented to get the idea that someone cared about her
butt and her comfort. That when she had a need it would be met, not
with anger and pain but with love and caring. And if that's not
unschooling I guess I don't understand the definintion.

Karen

keetry

For me, it's about expectations. You can be aware of and concerned
about her past without putting your expectations on it. Since you've
said she can't communicate with you, you can't really *know* why she
does something. You can make informed guesses and assumptions based
on what you know about her past but you can't really know for sure
unless she tells you. So, maybe the thing to do is to be as gentle
and respectful with her as possible because she probably was abused
and has dealt with major loss but not worry about the why of it all
yet. Does that make any sense?

For example, don't worry about what you will say to her when she
asks why her "real" mother didn't want her until she asks you. You
can't address that now, anyway, if you can't effectively communicate
with her.

Alysia

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> > It's not that I don't want advice...I just don't get it. You all
> freak about changing a diaper but tell me not to be concerned about
> abuse and loss. It seems backwards.
>
> Karen

Pamela Sorooshian

Karen -

I just wanted to say that I "DO" have a great deal of long-term
experience with an adopted child who was horribly sexually,
physically, and emotionally abused from infancy to 3 years old, placed
in a foster home, abused THERE until she was five and finally adopted
by my sister. They live just a few blocks away, and I was the only
adult other than my sister and her husband who ever could take care of
her. And then my sister's husband died from leukemia within months
after the adoption was final. I was my sister's only helper with her
daughter and it was extremely difficult. She had two other children
and I had my own three. My niece is now 24 years old, so I have had
many years of experience, and I know very very well what the results
of her early life meant - reactive attachment disorder, physical and
mental disabilities, etc.

So I'm telling you all this so you won't assume that none of us have a
clue.


I'm sure I speak for everyone on this list in saying that we admire
your courage and kindness in adopting this little girl and we truly
sympathize with the difficulties. I KNOW, first hand, how emotionally
and physically exhausting it is. Maybe this is not a good time for you
to participate on a list like this. I say that because you seem so
very oversensitive and much of the intended help or suggestions or
ideas directed toward you are feeling, to you, like criticism, even
though it is obvious to others that that is not at all intended.

I really strongly suggest that you just read, stop posting, and notice
any ideas that seem like they might be adaptable for your situation
and ignore the rest.

-Pam Sorooshian

On Feb 17, 2008, at 5:00 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> And if that's not
> unschooling I guess I don't understand the definintion.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>

I appreciate your advice but as I've said, the situation is completely
different. Your son doesn't want you to bug him. My daughter doesn't
want to be punched in the head. Changing her while she's doing
something else doesn't mitigate the fear. Abuse is totally different
than irritation. Though as I've said I've fixed the diapering
problem. She doesn't resist and happily comes to have her diaper
changed now because she knows she's not going to be hurt and I made it
fun. Additionally, there isn't anything she likes better than to have
an adult invested in her happiness so she will leave a toy with no
hesitation to interact with us. Years of neglect and abuse have made
her crave attention and affection...more than your normal 3 yr old who
is already beginning to pull away and find their autonomy. She is
also only about 12 months old developmentally so that changes the
situation significantly.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Karen B kindly replied and hoped to be helpful.

Honestly. The polite response is: "Thank you." Or nothing at all.

We all don't need to now why the suggestions won't work for you. Really.

That advice might work wonders for seven other readers.




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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