Unschooling and Dyslexia
swissarmy_wife
I belong to and in someways help moderate an unschooling board on
myspace. Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of moderation of
posts. Right now, my friend Tara and I are struggling to keep the
board "unschooly". Many people offer up advice that is in direct
contradiction of unschooling. So while we do that... The topic of
unschooling a dyslexic came up.
I do not know much about dyslexias but I can't agree with what this
woman is saying. So I'm going to copy and paste it here and see if
anyone can help me formulate some sort of answer here.
She says:
"with dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them. "
I can't agree! but I can't answer her either. Anyone here have
experience with this? She is insistent on TRAINING this child. I'm
not trying to change her mind, but give her another perspective and
other ways of helping her son.
myspace. Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of moderation of
posts. Right now, my friend Tara and I are struggling to keep the
board "unschooly". Many people offer up advice that is in direct
contradiction of unschooling. So while we do that... The topic of
unschooling a dyslexic came up.
I do not know much about dyslexias but I can't agree with what this
woman is saying. So I'm going to copy and paste it here and see if
anyone can help me formulate some sort of answer here.
She says:
"with dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them. "
I can't agree! but I can't answer her either. Anyone here have
experience with this? She is insistent on TRAINING this child. I'm
not trying to change her mind, but give her another perspective and
other ways of helping her son.
Jodi Bezzola
My dh was diagnosed dyslexic in school and still doesn't read well or enjoy reading inspite of specialized "training" (can you hear the scorn in my voice??). All the "training" did was help him feel dumb. The thing that finally is working (a tip from an unschoolers dh) is for him to simply place a red ruler under the line he's reading. There is documented science behind this method that requires no "training". Lots comes up when you google this topic. Perhaps share some personal experiences with her? I don't have much love left in me for "experts". The foundation of unschooling to me is that we are each our own expert. Just my two cents.
Jodi
swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
I belong to and in someways help moderate an unschooling board on
myspace. Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of moderation of
posts. Right now, my friend Tara and I are struggling to keep the
board "unschooly". Many people offer up advice that is in direct
contradiction of unschooling. So while we do that... The topic of
unschooling a dyslexic came up.
I do not know much about dyslexias but I can't agree with what this
woman is saying. So I'm going to copy and paste it here and see if
anyone can help me formulate some sort of answer here.
She says:
"with dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them. "
I can't agree! but I can't answer her either. Anyone here have
experience with this? She is insistent on TRAINING this child. I'm
not trying to change her mind, but give her another perspective and
other ways of helping her son.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
I belong to and in someways help moderate an unschooling board on
myspace. Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of moderation of
posts. Right now, my friend Tara and I are struggling to keep the
board "unschooly". Many people offer up advice that is in direct
contradiction of unschooling. So while we do that... The topic of
unschooling a dyslexic came up.
I do not know much about dyslexias but I can't agree with what this
woman is saying. So I'm going to copy and paste it here and see if
anyone can help me formulate some sort of answer here.
She says:
"with dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them. "
I can't agree! but I can't answer her either. Anyone here have
experience with this? She is insistent on TRAINING this child. I'm
not trying to change her mind, but give her another perspective and
other ways of helping her son.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
illiterate.
Karen
with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
illiterate.
Karen
Janet
I don't know how much help I can be but it wasn't until my ds was
about 15 that we realized he had what others called "dyslexia". He
was labeling boxes for a friend who was moving and wrote every single
number down as a mirror image!! I was floored. I had never made him
write much (he did a lot on the computer though) and just saw a few
times when things were reversed and didn't worry about it. I laughed,
told him "you probably are dyslexic!" and that was it. He went on to
get a very high GPA in college - took about 30 credit hours in
various subjects and is now taking a break from college. We never did
a thing and he's managing just fine. I don't know if that helps or
not! I have a feeling my ten yodd has dyslexia also. She always reads
words "backwards" and we just either ignore it or ask her to "look
again" if we all laugh and she wonders why. She sometimes reads
phrases backwards. I figure she'll figure it out.
Janet in MN
At 11:04 AM 2/15/2008, you wrote:
about 15 that we realized he had what others called "dyslexia". He
was labeling boxes for a friend who was moving and wrote every single
number down as a mirror image!! I was floored. I had never made him
write much (he did a lot on the computer though) and just saw a few
times when things were reversed and didn't worry about it. I laughed,
told him "you probably are dyslexic!" and that was it. He went on to
get a very high GPA in college - took about 30 credit hours in
various subjects and is now taking a break from college. We never did
a thing and he's managing just fine. I don't know if that helps or
not! I have a feeling my ten yodd has dyslexia also. She always reads
words "backwards" and we just either ignore it or ask her to "look
again" if we all laugh and she wonders why. She sometimes reads
phrases backwards. I figure she'll figure it out.
Janet in MN
At 11:04 AM 2/15/2008, you wrote:
>I belong to and in someways help moderate an unschooling board on[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>myspace. Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of moderation of
>posts. Right now, my friend Tara and I are struggling to keep the
>board "unschooly". Many people offer up advice that is in direct
>contradiction of unschooling. So while we do that... The topic of
>unschooling a dyslexic came up.
>
>I do not know much about dyslexias but I can't agree with what this
>woman is saying. So I'm going to copy and paste it here and see if
>anyone can help me formulate some sort of answer here.
>
>She says:
>
>"with dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
>just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
>to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
>it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
>very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
>unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
>concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
>dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
>at some point things suddenly get easier for them. "
>
>I can't agree! but I can't answer her either. Anyone here have
>experience with this? She is insistent on TRAINING this child. I'm
>not trying to change her mind, but give her another perspective and
>other ways of helping her son.
Jodi Bezzola
>>We can like it or not but there are things we have to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it or it respects them as a person.Man, IMHO this is very dangerous thinking. If we don't like it and the children don't like it we'll just keep doing it?? I do understand the examples that were given, however, how can those parents really ever know if the girl with CP would in fact choose the *treatment* that makes her scream?? "For their own good" is the title of a book by Alice Miller referring to all that we have historically done TO children (*abuse*) "for their own good". What you are talking about clearly is your opinion, but in my opinion is not 'unschooly' at all.
Jodi
Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
illiterate.
Karen
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
I said it wasn't unschooly. However are you suggesting that kids
aren't ever made to do anything? My 3 yr old would rather not have
her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
doesn't want to have it changed? She doesn't want to be treated for a
nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
and fevers and her ear drum could perforate. What's more important?
Health and safety or choosing everything? It's one thing to say a 15
yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
the line?
I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
her choice!" IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
can't. I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
will happen if I don't. In children, they don't always know the
consquences nor can they appreciate them. And to compare stretching a
child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
Karen
aren't ever made to do anything? My 3 yr old would rather not have
her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
doesn't want to have it changed? She doesn't want to be treated for a
nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
and fevers and her ear drum could perforate. What's more important?
Health and safety or choosing everything? It's one thing to say a 15
yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
the line?
I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
her choice!" IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
can't. I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
will happen if I don't. In children, they don't always know the
consquences nor can they appreciate them. And to compare stretching a
child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
Karen
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >>We can like it or not but there are things we have to do TO our children
> for their own good whether or not they like it or it respects them as a
> person.
>
> Man, IMHO this is very dangerous thinking. If we don't like it and the
> children don't like it we'll just keep doing it?? I do understand the
> examples that were given, however, how can those parents really ever know if
> the girl with CP would in fact choose the *treatment* that makes her
> scream?? "For their own good" is the title of a book by Alice Miller
> referring to all that we have historically done TO children (*abuse*) "for
> their own good". What you are talking about clearly is your opinion, but in
> my opinion is not 'unschooly' at all.
>
> Jodi
>
>
> Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
> with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
> work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
> to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
> or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
> three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
> it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
> parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
> It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
> walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
>
> I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
> are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
> anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
> child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
> issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
> cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
> like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
> word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
> to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
> be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
> based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
> illiterate.
>
> Karen
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
Deb Lewis
*** help me formulate some sort of answer here.***
People with all the same claimed "symptoms" of dyslexia who are not pressured to read or given reading lessons or "trained," learn to read when they're ready. They might learn later but they learn for the same reason everyone who learns to read earlier learns: They learn because their brains are ready. I might read differently than you read. You might read (and I mean see the words, process the words, organize the words) differently than the next person reads. No matter how we process letters and words we all do that when our brains are ready to organize written language in the way that world for us. The goal should not be to get all people to see and process and organize written words in the same way, but unfortunately we seem to be attached to the idea that there is one right way to learn to read.
People don't learn to read by being taught how to read. Because there's some portion of people who endure reading lessons and also learn to read is not proof that teaching equals learning.
Tell her people who spew nonsense need to be trained to shut the fuck up and then you can borrow my brass knuckles to begin her training, if you want.<g>
There's an interesting chapter about "dyslexia" in the book Teach Your Own by John Holt. I think it's chapter eleven titled "Learning Difficulties." Maybe you could suggest it to her between sound wollopings.
(Or, wait for Joyce to deliver one of her arrestingly sophisticated replies and pass it along.)
Deb Lewis, sick up to here (jabbing hand way up in the air) with people who think a brain can make sense of every other effing shape on the effing planet but can't makes sense of letter shapes without "training." What a load of bleeping blanketyblank.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
People with all the same claimed "symptoms" of dyslexia who are not pressured to read or given reading lessons or "trained," learn to read when they're ready. They might learn later but they learn for the same reason everyone who learns to read earlier learns: They learn because their brains are ready. I might read differently than you read. You might read (and I mean see the words, process the words, organize the words) differently than the next person reads. No matter how we process letters and words we all do that when our brains are ready to organize written language in the way that world for us. The goal should not be to get all people to see and process and organize written words in the same way, but unfortunately we seem to be attached to the idea that there is one right way to learn to read.
People don't learn to read by being taught how to read. Because there's some portion of people who endure reading lessons and also learn to read is not proof that teaching equals learning.
Tell her people who spew nonsense need to be trained to shut the fuck up and then you can borrow my brass knuckles to begin her training, if you want.<g>
There's an interesting chapter about "dyslexia" in the book Teach Your Own by John Holt. I think it's chapter eleven titled "Learning Difficulties." Maybe you could suggest it to her between sound wollopings.
(Or, wait for Joyce to deliver one of her arrestingly sophisticated replies and pass it along.)
Deb Lewis, sick up to here (jabbing hand way up in the air) with people who think a brain can make sense of every other effing shape on the effing planet but can't makes sense of letter shapes without "training." What a load of bleeping blanketyblank.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I personally think unschooling for dyslexia would be a positive thing, and
would work quite well - I can't see why not, and yes, I do have some experience
with it...Hmmm...
Karen (the other one, lol, in So. Cal)
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
would work quite well - I can't see why not, and yes, I do have some experience
with it...Hmmm...
Karen (the other one, lol, in So. Cal)
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet
FWIW my son with dyslexia - the one we did nothing for who went to
college and did fine, is an artist. He is now 20. He struggled to
read and didn't do so fluently till he was almost 12... He reads fine
now. When he's tired it's a little harder to keep the letters flowing
in the right direction, but he knows what he needs to do - slow down,
use a finger or tool to keep the letters in line (things he picked up
on the way.) My dd with dyslexia is not asking for help at this
point and we are not coercing her to take it. I have offered. She was
a slower-than-my-other-kids reader, but we didn't care. She is 10 and
reads pretty well - again, unless she is distracted or tired! I
honestly think there are plenty of tools out there to help her, and
she does not need any "training". We will go with the flow. If she
wants help, we'll look for it. She is very much like older son in a
lot of ways - really struggled with sensory problems as a little one!
Janet in MN
At 12:16 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote:
college and did fine, is an artist. He is now 20. He struggled to
read and didn't do so fluently till he was almost 12... He reads fine
now. When he's tired it's a little harder to keep the letters flowing
in the right direction, but he knows what he needs to do - slow down,
use a finger or tool to keep the letters in line (things he picked up
on the way.) My dd with dyslexia is not asking for help at this
point and we are not coercing her to take it. I have offered. She was
a slower-than-my-other-kids reader, but we didn't care. She is 10 and
reads pretty well - again, unless she is distracted or tired! I
honestly think there are plenty of tools out there to help her, and
she does not need any "training". We will go with the flow. If she
wants help, we'll look for it. She is very much like older son in a
lot of ways - really struggled with sensory problems as a little one!
Janet in MN
At 12:16 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote:
>Karen Swanay
><<mailto:luvbullbreeds%40gmail.com>luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
>with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
>work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
>to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
>or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
>three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
>it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
>parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
>It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
>walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
>
>I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
>are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
>anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
>child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
>issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
>cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
>like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
>word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
>to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
>be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
>based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
>illiterate.
>
>Karen
Jodi Bezzola
Karen, you are reading alot of what I *didn't* say into what I *did* say. I wasn't comparing anything, simply noting that the phrase you chose ('for your own good') makes me feel icky because I associate it with a very valid piece of literature I read when I was doing healing from my childhood.
My intention is not to start a debate. I am very clear about my beliefs (and when I say that I am *not* saying you aren't clear about yours!), and I respectfully decline to take this any further today.
Jodi
Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
I said it wasn't unschooly. However are you suggesting that kids
aren't ever made to do anything? My 3 yr old would rather not have
her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
doesn't want to have it changed? She doesn't want to be treated for a
nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
and fevers and her ear drum could perforate. What's more important?
Health and safety or choosing everything? It's one thing to say a 15
yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
the line?
I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
her choice!" IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
can't. I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
will happen if I don't. In children, they don't always know the
consquences nor can they appreciate them. And to compare stretching a
child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
Karen
My intention is not to start a debate. I am very clear about my beliefs (and when I say that I am *not* saying you aren't clear about yours!), and I respectfully decline to take this any further today.
Jodi
Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
I said it wasn't unschooly. However are you suggesting that kids
aren't ever made to do anything? My 3 yr old would rather not have
her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
doesn't want to have it changed? She doesn't want to be treated for a
nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
and fevers and her ear drum could perforate. What's more important?
Health and safety or choosing everything? It's one thing to say a 15
yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
the line?
I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
her choice!" IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
can't. I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
will happen if I don't. In children, they don't always know the
consquences nor can they appreciate them. And to compare stretching a
child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
Karen
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >>We can like it or not but there are things we have to do TO our children
> for their own good whether or not they like it or it respects them as a
> person.
>
> Man, IMHO this is very dangerous thinking. If we don't like it and the
> children don't like it we'll just keep doing it?? I do understand the
> examples that were given, however, how can those parents really ever know if
> the girl with CP would in fact choose the *treatment* that makes her
> scream?? "For their own good" is the title of a book by Alice Miller
> referring to all that we have historically done TO children (*abuse*) "for
> their own good". What you are talking about clearly is your opinion, but in
> my opinion is not 'unschooly' at all.
>
> Jodi
>
>
> Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
> with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
> work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
> to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
> or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
> three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
> it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
> parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
> It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
> walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
>
> I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
> are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
> anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
> child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
> issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
> cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
> like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
> word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
> to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
> be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
> based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
> illiterate.
>
> Karen
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
This is anecdotal, but, I know 4 people who are dyslexic and none had any real training. Two of them would always rewrite what they had written for clarity's sake and the other two weren't diagnosed until late into their school experience. They didn't have any special training. They just figured out how to read even with dyslexia.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 15 February, 2008 5:04:32 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling and Dyslexia
I
belong
to
and
in
someways
help
moderate
an
unschooling
board
on
myspace.
Unfortunately,
we
do
not
have
the
luxury
of
moderation
of
posts.
Right
now,
my
friend
Tara
and
I
are
struggling
to
keep
the
board
"unschooly".
Many
people
offer
up
advice
that
is
in
direct
contradiction
of
unschooling.
So
while
we
do
that...
The
topic
of
unschooling
a
dyslexic
came
up.
I
do
not
know
much
about
dyslexias
but
I
can't
agree
with
what
this
woman
is
saying.
So
I'm
going
to
copy
and
paste
it
here
and
see
if
anyone
can
help
me
formulate
some
sort
of
answer
here.
She
says:
"with
dyslexia
you
HAVE
to
be
trained
in
how
to
get
past
it.
this
isnt
just
some
person
that
could
read
at
some
point.
if
he
isnt
trained
HOW
to
see
letters
in
groups
that
form
words
he
never
will
be
able
to
do
it
and
it
will
ALWAYS
be
frustrating
for
him.
since
neither
of
you
are
very
aware
of
dyslexia
I
am
going
to
tell
you
that
some
of
the
unschooling
pracitces
just
do
not
apply
to
dyslexics.
the
whole
concept
of
not
insisting
they
do
things
doesnt
work.
people
with
dyslexia
are
forced
to
do
these
types
of
eye
and
mind
training
so
that
at
some
point
things
suddenly
get
easier
for
them.
"
I
can't
agree!
but
I
can't
answer
her
either.
Anyone
here
have
experience
with
this?
She
is
insistent
on
TRAINING
this
child.
I'm
not
trying
to
change
her
mind,
but
give
her
another
perspective
and
other
ways
of
helping
her
son.
Yahoo!
Groups
Links
your
group
on
the
web,
go
to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
settings:
Individual
Email
|
Traditional
settings
online
go
to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/join
(Yahoo!
ID
required)
settings
via
email:
mailto:[email protected]
mailto:[email protected]
from
this
group,
send
an
email
to:
[email protected]
of
Yahoo!
Groups
is
subject
to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 15 February, 2008 5:04:32 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling and Dyslexia
I
belong
to
and
in
someways
help
moderate
an
unschooling
board
on
myspace.
Unfortunately,
we
do
not
have
the
luxury
of
moderation
of
posts.
Right
now,
my
friend
Tara
and
I
are
struggling
to
keep
the
board
"unschooly".
Many
people
offer
up
advice
that
is
in
direct
contradiction
of
unschooling.
So
while
we
do
that...
The
topic
of
unschooling
a
dyslexic
came
up.
I
do
not
know
much
about
dyslexias
but
I
can't
agree
with
what
this
woman
is
saying.
So
I'm
going
to
copy
and
paste
it
here
and
see
if
anyone
can
help
me
formulate
some
sort
of
answer
here.
She
says:
"with
dyslexia
you
HAVE
to
be
trained
in
how
to
get
past
it.
this
isnt
just
some
person
that
could
read
at
some
point.
if
he
isnt
trained
HOW
to
see
letters
in
groups
that
form
words
he
never
will
be
able
to
do
it
and
it
will
ALWAYS
be
frustrating
for
him.
since
neither
of
you
are
very
aware
of
dyslexia
I
am
going
to
tell
you
that
some
of
the
unschooling
pracitces
just
do
not
apply
to
dyslexics.
the
whole
concept
of
not
insisting
they
do
things
doesnt
work.
people
with
dyslexia
are
forced
to
do
these
types
of
eye
and
mind
training
so
that
at
some
point
things
suddenly
get
easier
for
them.
"
I
can't
agree!
but
I
can't
answer
her
either.
Anyone
here
have
experience
with
this?
She
is
insistent
on
TRAINING
this
child.
I'm
not
trying
to
change
her
mind,
but
give
her
another
perspective
and
other
ways
of
helping
her
son.
Yahoo!
Groups
Links
your
group
on
the
web,
go
to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
settings:
Individual
|
Traditional
settings
online
go
to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/join
(Yahoo!
ID
required)
settings
via
email:
mailto:[email protected]
mailto:[email protected]
from
this
group,
send
an
to:
[email protected]
of
Yahoo!
Groups
is
subject
to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***organize written language in the way that world for us***
Should have been "in the way that *works* for us."
Some people organize without typos and others don't
.
Deb Lewis, who was trained to spell and to type, by golly..
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Should have been "in the way that *works* for us."
Some people organize without typos and others don't
.
Deb Lewis, who was trained to spell and to type, by golly..
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
Maybe if I were not pregnant my words would make more sense. I feel
so much more PUNCHY when I'm pregnant. I am not well spoken (written)
right now. I'm am frustrated beyond belief with that board. There
are a few people who seem to hang around just to argue and it really
takes away from those who are there to discuss and learn. i could
stop, but I just keep replying! It's a terrible cycle!!!
i really appreciate this answer. i think its exactly what I was
looking for! You are so beautifully spoken! If the situation weren't
already tense, I might quote you. Oh... you know which paragraph I
mean! LOL
so much more PUNCHY when I'm pregnant. I am not well spoken (written)
right now. I'm am frustrated beyond belief with that board. There
are a few people who seem to hang around just to argue and it really
takes away from those who are there to discuss and learn. i could
stop, but I just keep replying! It's a terrible cycle!!!
i really appreciate this answer. i think its exactly what I was
looking for! You are so beautifully spoken! If the situation weren't
already tense, I might quote you. Oh... you know which paragraph I
mean! LOL
--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>
> *** help me formulate some sort of answer here.***
>
> People with all the same claimed "symptoms" of dyslexia who are not
pressured to read or given reading lessons or "trained," learn to read
when they're ready. They might learn later but they learn for the
same reason everyone who learns to read earlier learns: They learn
because their brains are ready. I might read differently than you
read. You might read (and I mean see the words, process the words,
organize the words) differently than the next person reads. No matter
how we process letters and words we all do that when our brains are
ready to organize written language in the way that world for us. The
goal should not be to get all people to see and process and organize
written words in the same way, but unfortunately we seem to be
attached to the idea that there is one right way to learn to read.
>
> People don't learn to read by being taught how to read. Because
there's some portion of people who endure reading lessons and also
learn to read is not proof that teaching equals learning.
>
> Tell her people who spew nonsense need to be trained to shut the
fuck up and then you can borrow my brass knuckles to begin her
training, if you want.<g>
>
> There's an interesting chapter about "dyslexia" in the book Teach
Your Own by John Holt. I think it's chapter eleven titled "Learning
Difficulties." Maybe you could suggest it to her between sound
wollopings.
>
> (Or, wait for Joyce to deliver one of her arrestingly sophisticated
replies and pass it along.)
>
> Deb Lewis, sick up to here (jabbing hand way up in the air) with
people who think a brain can make sense of every other effing shape on
the effing planet but can't makes sense of letter shapes without
"training." What a load of bleeping blanketyblank.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jodi Bezzola
I hereby nominate this for Post Of The Week. I'm still rolling on the floor! <BWG>
Jodi
Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:
*** help me formulate some sort of answer here.***
People with all the same claimed "symptoms" of dyslexia who are not pressured to read or given reading lessons or "trained," learn to read when they're ready. They might learn later but they learn for the same reason everyone who learns to read earlier learns: They learn because their brains are ready. I might read differently than you read. You might read (and I mean see the words, process the words, organize the words) differently than the next person reads. No matter how we process letters and words we all do that when our brains are ready to organize written language in the way that world for us. The goal should not be to get all people to see and process and organize written words in the same way, but unfortunately we seem to be attached to the idea that there is one right way to learn to read.
People don't learn to read by being taught how to read. Because there's some portion of people who endure reading lessons and also learn to read is not proof that teaching equals learning.
Tell her people who spew nonsense need to be trained to shut the fuck up and then you can borrow my brass knuckles to begin her training, if you want.<g>
There's an interesting chapter about "dyslexia" in the book Teach Your Own by John Holt. I think it's chapter eleven titled "Learning Difficulties." Maybe you could suggest it to her between sound wollopings.
(Or, wait for Joyce to deliver one of her arrestingly sophisticated replies and pass it along.)
Deb Lewis, sick up to here (jabbing hand way up in the air) with people who think a brain can make sense of every other effing shape on the effing planet but can't makes sense of letter shapes without "training." What a load of bleeping blanketyblank.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:
*** help me formulate some sort of answer here.***
People with all the same claimed "symptoms" of dyslexia who are not pressured to read or given reading lessons or "trained," learn to read when they're ready. They might learn later but they learn for the same reason everyone who learns to read earlier learns: They learn because their brains are ready. I might read differently than you read. You might read (and I mean see the words, process the words, organize the words) differently than the next person reads. No matter how we process letters and words we all do that when our brains are ready to organize written language in the way that world for us. The goal should not be to get all people to see and process and organize written words in the same way, but unfortunately we seem to be attached to the idea that there is one right way to learn to read.
People don't learn to read by being taught how to read. Because there's some portion of people who endure reading lessons and also learn to read is not proof that teaching equals learning.
Tell her people who spew nonsense need to be trained to shut the fuck up and then you can borrow my brass knuckles to begin her training, if you want.<g>
There's an interesting chapter about "dyslexia" in the book Teach Your Own by John Holt. I think it's chapter eleven titled "Learning Difficulties." Maybe you could suggest it to her between sound wollopings.
(Or, wait for Joyce to deliver one of her arrestingly sophisticated replies and pass it along.)
Deb Lewis, sick up to here (jabbing hand way up in the air) with people who think a brain can make sense of every other effing shape on the effing planet but can't makes sense of letter shapes without "training." What a load of bleeping blanketyblank.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
Hey that's OK. I misunderstood what you were saying. Absolutely,
"for their own good" is sometimes used to justify abuse. (And I'm
living that now with my 3.5 yr old...a lot was "done for her own good"
before we brought her home and the results are heart breaking.) I was
reading it as you saying there isn't ever a time we have to do
something for kids they'd rather not have done. Sorry I
misunderstood.
Re: this mother, maybe she's just scared that if she doesn't do what
she's being told to do by "experts" her son's life will be destroyed
and it will be all her fault. Perhaps you could offer a list of
people she could talk to that are doing it now or have BTDT?
Karen
"for their own good" is sometimes used to justify abuse. (And I'm
living that now with my 3.5 yr old...a lot was "done for her own good"
before we brought her home and the results are heart breaking.) I was
reading it as you saying there isn't ever a time we have to do
something for kids they'd rather not have done. Sorry I
misunderstood.
Re: this mother, maybe she's just scared that if she doesn't do what
she's being told to do by "experts" her son's life will be destroyed
and it will be all her fault. Perhaps you could offer a list of
people she could talk to that are doing it now or have BTDT?
Karen
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Karen, you are reading alot of what I *didn't* say into what I *did* say. I
> wasn't comparing anything, simply noting that the phrase you chose ('for
> your own good') makes me feel icky because I associate it with a very valid
> piece of literature I read when I was doing healing from my childhood.
>
> My intention is not to start a debate. I am very clear about my beliefs (and
> when I say that I am *not* saying you aren't clear about yours!), and I
> respectfully decline to take this any further today.
>
>
>
> Jodi
>
> Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> I said it wasn't unschooly. However are you suggesting that kids
> aren't ever made to do anything? My 3 yr old would rather not have
> her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
> doesn't want to have it changed? She doesn't want to be treated for a
> nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
> wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
> and fevers and her ear drum could perforate. What's more important?
> Health and safety or choosing everything? It's one thing to say a 15
> yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
> suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
> have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
> deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
> the line?
>
> I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
> can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
> Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
> her choice!" IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
> can't. I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
> will happen if I don't. In children, they don't always know the
> consquences nor can they appreciate them. And to compare stretching a
> child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
> kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
>
> Karen
>
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>We can like it or not but there are things we have to do TO our children
> > for their own good whether or not they like it or it respects them as a
> > person.
> >
> > Man, IMHO this is very dangerous thinking. If we don't like it and the
> > children don't like it we'll just keep doing it?? I do understand the
> > examples that were given, however, how can those parents really ever know
> if
> > the girl with CP would in fact choose the *treatment* that makes her
> > scream?? "For their own good" is the title of a book by Alice Miller
> > referring to all that we have historically done TO children (*abuse*) "for
> > their own good". What you are talking about clearly is your opinion, but
> in
> > my opinion is not 'unschooly' at all.
> >
> > Jodi
> >
> >
> > Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> > RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
> > with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
> > work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
> > to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
> > or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
> > three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
> > it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
> > parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
> > It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
> > walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
> >
> > I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
> > are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
> > anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
> > child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
> > issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
> > cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
> > like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
> > word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
> > to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
> > be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
> > based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
> > illiterate.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
She says:
"with dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them. "
-=-=-=-=-
Of course I disagree with her completely. I am quite aware of dyslexia.
I do not need her to tell me that parents/teachers need to force a
child to do anything.
But before I start arguing:
How old is the "dyslexic" child in question?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
She says:
"with dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them. "
-=-=-=-=-
Of course I disagree with her completely. I am quite aware of dyslexia.
I do not need her to tell me that parents/teachers need to force a
child to do anything.
But before I start arguing:
How old is the "dyslexic" child in question?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
swissarmy_wife
10
and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
ass whooping... please feel free!
and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
ass whooping... please feel free!
>
> Of course I disagree with her completely. I am quite aware of dyslexia.
> I do not need her to tell me that parents/teachers need to force a
> child to do anything.
>
> But before I start arguing:
>
> How old is the "dyslexic" child in question?
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
work through it.
-=-=-=-
And your proof for this is where?
-=-=-=-=-
We can like it or not but there are things we have
to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
or it respects them as a person.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't think so.
-=-=-=-=-
My neighbor's daughter has CP and
three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Have they asked *her* what *she* would like to do about it?
Assuming that we must MAKE others who are smaller and weaker do things
because we say so is WRONG. There are many other possibilities that are
not being discussed and explored.
-=-=-=-=-
I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues.
-=-=-=-
MIne have *never* chosen not to take medication that they knew would
help them. Many of us choose to do some pretty nasty, horrid things.
But that's our CHOICE.
-=-=-=-=-
Once this child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite
his
issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
cereal he wants for breakfast.
-=-=-=-=
He needs to READ which cereal he wants for breakfast? My two years olds
couldn't read, but they knew which *box* to choose.
Amazingly, there are kids who *already* play WoW and read comics
without having been forced to "recognize letter groups."
-=-=-=-=-=-
There are other methods for reading,
like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
word document.
-=-=-=-
That's why children have PARENTS---to do those things *for* them until
they are ready.
-=-=-==-
To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
be behind.
-=-=-=-=-
Ahead of WHAT? Behind WHOM???
No one's ignoring anything except these frantic parents who need for
their children to be taking college level courses at ten.
The only *problem* is parents who are to hurried and impatient with
their children.
A child who has a print-rich world *WILL* learn to read when he's
ready. On his own schedule. In his own time.
Period.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
illiterate.
-=-=-=-=-=-
At what age? Two year olds are illiterate, and they are SUPPOSED to be.
And yet there are nuts out there who are trying to teach two year olds
to read. WTF??!!
Children *want* to do what adults do. That's hard-wired into them. They
will read when they are ready---but not a moment sooner, no matter
*what* crazy teacher/parents DO to them.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
work through it.
-=-=-=-
And your proof for this is where?
-=-=-=-=-
We can like it or not but there are things we have
to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
or it respects them as a person.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't think so.
-=-=-=-=-
My neighbor's daughter has CP and
three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Have they asked *her* what *she* would like to do about it?
Assuming that we must MAKE others who are smaller and weaker do things
because we say so is WRONG. There are many other possibilities that are
not being discussed and explored.
-=-=-=-=-
I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues.
-=-=-=-
MIne have *never* chosen not to take medication that they knew would
help them. Many of us choose to do some pretty nasty, horrid things.
But that's our CHOICE.
-=-=-=-=-
Once this child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite
his
issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
cereal he wants for breakfast.
-=-=-=-=
He needs to READ which cereal he wants for breakfast? My two years olds
couldn't read, but they knew which *box* to choose.
Amazingly, there are kids who *already* play WoW and read comics
without having been forced to "recognize letter groups."
-=-=-=-=-=-
There are other methods for reading,
like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
word document.
-=-=-=-
That's why children have PARENTS---to do those things *for* them until
they are ready.
-=-=-==-
To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he will
be behind.
-=-=-=-=-
Ahead of WHAT? Behind WHOM???
No one's ignoring anything except these frantic parents who need for
their children to be taking college level courses at ten.
The only *problem* is parents who are to hurried and impatient with
their children.
A child who has a print-rich world *WILL* learn to read when he's
ready. On his own schedule. In his own time.
Period.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
illiterate.
-=-=-=-=-=-
At what age? Two year olds are illiterate, and they are SUPPOSED to be.
And yet there are nuts out there who are trying to teach two year olds
to read. WTF??!!
Children *want* to do what adults do. That's hard-wired into them. They
will read when they are ready---but not a moment sooner, no matter
*what* crazy teacher/parents DO to them.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
Melissa Gray
In actuality, having some experience with CP, it should not be so
excruciating that she is screaming. They need to consult with their
OT and PT and receive additional training. My son has ligament
problems, and he could not stretch, run, walk completely upright. His
therapy has never been painful, he has been stretched to the limit,
but we always stop when he says he's ready to stop. He is willing to
undergo that, because he knows that we will respect his needs. I have
a daughter with severe autism, and we were castigated for not forcing
40 hours of ABA on her every week. However, the therapy that we DID
do was acceptable for her because it wasn't too much, it was on her
terms, and we could stop when she was ready for a break. Kids like
Josh and Bre are dragged, kicking and screaming to the exact same
therapy that we do. They are bribed, and spend about half of the time
working because of the need for constant rewards. And yet, they still
don't want to be there.
Very rarely to kids want to be in discomfort or pain, but often
children who are parented in a mainstream way CHOOSE to defy those
things that make them feel better because it is a struggle for
autonomy. Yes, I have left my two year old in a dirty diaper. No, it
did not kill her or even cause a terrible rash. When she was ready,
she asked for a diaper change.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
excruciating that she is screaming. They need to consult with their
OT and PT and receive additional training. My son has ligament
problems, and he could not stretch, run, walk completely upright. His
therapy has never been painful, he has been stretched to the limit,
but we always stop when he says he's ready to stop. He is willing to
undergo that, because he knows that we will respect his needs. I have
a daughter with severe autism, and we were castigated for not forcing
40 hours of ABA on her every week. However, the therapy that we DID
do was acceptable for her because it wasn't too much, it was on her
terms, and we could stop when she was ready for a break. Kids like
Josh and Bre are dragged, kicking and screaming to the exact same
therapy that we do. They are bribed, and spend about half of the time
working because of the need for constant rewards. And yet, they still
don't want to be there.
Very rarely to kids want to be in discomfort or pain, but often
children who are parented in a mainstream way CHOOSE to defy those
things that make them feel better because it is a struggle for
autonomy. Yes, I have left my two year old in a dirty diaper. No, it
did not kill her or even cause a terrible rash. When she was ready,
she asked for a diaper change.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:
> I said it wasn't unschooly. However are you suggesting that kids
> aren't ever made to do anything? My 3 yr old would rather not have
> her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
> doesn't want to have it changed? She doesn't want to be treated for a
> nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
> wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
> and fevers and her ear drum could perforate. What's more important?
> Health and safety or choosing everything? It's one thing to say a 15
> yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
> suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
> have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
> deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
> the line?
>
> I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
> can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
> Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
> her choice!" IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
> can't. I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
> will happen if I don't. In children, they don't always know the
> consquences nor can they appreciate them. And to compare stretching a
> child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
> kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
>
> Karen
>
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Jodi Bezzola
> <jodibezzola@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>We can like it or not but there are things we have to do TO our
> children
> > for their own good whether or not they like it or it respects
> them as a
> > person.
> >
> > Man, IMHO this is very dangerous thinking. If we don't like it
> and the
> > children don't like it we'll just keep doing it?? I do understand
> the
> > examples that were given, however, how can those parents really
> ever know if
> > the girl with CP would in fact choose the *treatment* that makes her
> > scream?? "For their own good" is the title of a book by Alice Miller
> > referring to all that we have historically done TO children
> (*abuse*) "for
> > their own good". What you are talking about clearly is your
> opinion, but in
> > my opinion is not 'unschooly' at all.
> >
> > Jodi
> >
> >
> > Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> > RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right.
> People
> > with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and
> learn to
> > work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
> > to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
> > or it respects them as a person. My neighbor's daughter has CP and
> > three times a day they have to stretch her arms and legs. She hates
> > it. It is uncomfortable and she screams the whole time. But if her
> > parents do not do this, she will be unable to function on any level.
> > It's only the stretching that keeps her flexible enough to use her
> > walker and feed herself (she's 7) and that's the way it has to be.
> >
> > I know it's not "unschooly" to force a kid to do anything but there
> > are some things that kids would choose not to do but have to be done
> > anyway. Like giving medication, and other such issues. Once this
> > child learns to recognize letter groups and can read despite his
> > issues, he will be able to play WOW, read comics, and read which
> > cereal he wants for breakfast. There are other methods for reading,
> > like sight line marking but that won't work in a computer game or a
> > word document. To ignore that he has a problem or leave it up to him
> > to work on when he feels like it he won't be ahead of others, he
> will
> > be behind. It's likely she's just worried because our society is one
> > based on literacy and without this practice, he is essentially
> > illiterate.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
10
and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
ass whooping... please feel free!
-=-=-=-
OhMyGAWD! Ten???
And if they don't hurry and intervene his future ability to read and
write will disappear forever!
Call the National Guard! Call the NEA! Call Dr Seuss!!!
Bunch of nuts!
Joyce will be by soon with a calm head and fingers. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
10
and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
ass whooping... please feel free!
-=-=-=-
OhMyGAWD! Ten???
And if they don't hurry and intervene his future ability to read and
write will disappear forever!
Call the National Guard! Call the NEA! Call Dr Seuss!!!
Bunch of nuts!
Joyce will be by soon with a calm head and fingers. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
Jodi Bezzola
Have I mentioned today that I love you guys??
And omg I'm still rolling on the floor :o)))))
Jodi
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
10
and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
ass whooping... please feel free!
-=-=-=-
OhMyGAWD! Ten???
And if they don't hurry and intervene his future ability to read and
write will disappear forever!
Call the National Guard! Call the NEA! Call Dr Seuss!!!
Bunch of nuts!
Joyce will be by soon with a calm head and fingers. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
__________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And omg I'm still rolling on the floor :o)))))
Jodi
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
10
and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
ass whooping... please feel free!
-=-=-=-
OhMyGAWD! Ten???
And if they don't hurry and intervene his future ability to read and
write will disappear forever!
Call the National Guard! Call the NEA! Call Dr Seuss!!!
Bunch of nuts!
Joyce will be by soon with a calm head and fingers. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
__________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
And this is why I love this board. No nonsense. I hate nonsense.
Well, I hate this sort of nonsense anyway.
This board is my backup! I'm one of the most experienced unschoolers
over at the other board. But here, I am just a little tiny baby! LOL
Thanks for all of this! Seriously! Thank you! When I tell someone
over there that they are being assholes to their children, I have my
validation.
I can't wait to meet some of you in person!!! I made the Waterpark
gathering, but we swam too much, and I don't know if I will make the
Northeast gathering or the Live and Learn. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ rules
sometimes. :-(
Well, I hate this sort of nonsense anyway.
This board is my backup! I'm one of the most experienced unschoolers
over at the other board. But here, I am just a little tiny baby! LOL
Thanks for all of this! Seriously! Thank you! When I tell someone
over there that they are being assholes to their children, I have my
validation.
I can't wait to meet some of you in person!!! I made the Waterpark
gathering, but we swam too much, and I don't know if I will make the
Northeast gathering or the Live and Learn. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ rules
sometimes. :-(
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
>
> 10
>
> and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
> ass whooping... please feel free!
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> OhMyGAWD! Ten???
>
> And if they don't hurry and intervene his future ability to read and
> write will disappear forever!
>
> Call the National Guard! Call the NEA! Call Dr Seuss!!!
>
> Bunch of nuts!
>
> Joyce will be by soon with a calm head and fingers. <g>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
I said it wasn't unschooly. However are you suggesting that kids
aren't ever made to do anything?
-=-==-
yep
-=-=-=-=-
My 3 yr old would rather not have
her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
doesn't want to have it changed?
-=-=-=-=-
Children like clean butts. Adults too.
Why would a child choose not to have a diaper changed?
Why would an adult choose not to have a diaper changed?
What could you do to change that? And make it more appealing?
-=-=-=-=-
She doesn't want to be treated for a
nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
and fevers and her ear drum could perforate.
-=-=-=-=-
Either THIS *or* THAT---no other options/possibilities?
-=-=-=-=-
What's more important?
Health and safety or choosing everything?
-=-=-=-=-
I'd say 99% of humans choose health and safety, so I believe that
choosing everything is more important.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It's one thing to say a 15
yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
the line?
-=-=-=-=-
When the smaller, weaker human is not honored.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
-=-=-=--
I think we all do.
-=-=-=-=-=
Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
her choice!"
-=-=-=-=-
No, I'm suggesting that they talk with her about how she'd like to
proceed.
-=-=-=-=-
IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
can't.
-=-=-=-=-
Many of your emails have clued us in to these opinions of yours. Many
of us disagree.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
will happen if I don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What will happen?
But you've been informed of the potentialities, so you choose the meds
over the possible eventuality, right?
-=-=-=-=-=-
In children, they don't always know the
consquences nor can they appreciate them.
-=-=-=-=-=-
First off, why DOESN'T the child know the consequences?
ANd why do you think a child cannot appreciate the consequences and
make a rational decision concerning them???
-=-=-=-=-
And to compare stretching a
child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It IS abusive to force pain on a child.
It is a completely different issue if the *child* chooses it and is
allowed to say "when."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
I said it wasn't unschooly. However are you suggesting that kids
aren't ever made to do anything?
-=-==-
yep
-=-=-=-=-
My 3 yr old would rather not have
her diaper changed. Should I let it be full of poop because she
doesn't want to have it changed?
-=-=-=-=-
Children like clean butts. Adults too.
Why would a child choose not to have a diaper changed?
Why would an adult choose not to have a diaper changed?
What could you do to change that? And make it more appealing?
-=-=-=-=-
She doesn't want to be treated for a
nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
and fevers and her ear drum could perforate.
-=-=-=-=-
Either THIS *or* THAT---no other options/possibilities?
-=-=-=-=-
What's more important?
Health and safety or choosing everything?
-=-=-=-=-
I'd say 99% of humans choose health and safety, so I believe that
choosing everything is more important.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It's one thing to say a 15
yr old can play as much WOW as they want and it's quite another to
suggest that a child with CP not be stretched or a child with CF not
have her lungs drained because they would rather not. One is no big
deal, the other is life altering or death inducing. Where do you draw
the line?
-=-=-=-=-
When the smaller, weaker human is not honored.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think my neighbors want their daughter to be as functional as she
can be so that as an adult she can be as functional as she can be.
-=-=-=--
I think we all do.
-=-=-=-=-=
Are you suggesting they just leave her to seize up and say "Hey, it's
her choice!"
-=-=-=-=-
No, I'm suggesting that they talk with her about how she'd like to
proceed.
-=-=-=-=-
IMO there are things we can leave to them, and things we
can't.
-=-=-=-=-
Many of your emails have clued us in to these opinions of yours. Many
of us disagree.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't like taking my meds but I do it because I know what
will happen if I don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What will happen?
But you've been informed of the potentialities, so you choose the meds
over the possible eventuality, right?
-=-=-=-=-=-
In children, they don't always know the
consquences nor can they appreciate them.
-=-=-=-=-=-
First off, why DOESN'T the child know the consequences?
ANd why do you think a child cannot appreciate the consequences and
make a rational decision concerning them???
-=-=-=-=-
And to compare stretching a
child with CF with abuse is a disservice to all those parents with SN
kids that are doing their best every day to help their kids.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It IS abusive to force pain on a child.
It is a completely different issue if the *child* chooses it and is
allowed to say "when."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
Jodi Bezzola
I was just sharing with my dad this morning about the differences between the 2 groups I belong to. One is Canadian, and we are Oh So Polite about our opinions. We have them, but are ever so slightly more careful to not offend you or piss you off. Then there is this group that is seriously straight up. I for one need to hear straight up right now because I"m still such a newbie RU that when I hear a mainstream opinion I still kind of go 'really, could that be true??', then I hear from Kelly and company and find out, once again, it's all just bullshit. Thank god I only buy into it for a nanosecond now! Love it love it love it.
Jodi
swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
And this is why I love this board. No nonsense. I hate nonsense.
Well, I hate this sort of nonsense anyway.
This board is my backup! I'm one of the most experienced unschoolers
over at the other board. But here, I am just a little tiny baby! LOL
Thanks for all of this! Seriously! Thank you! When I tell someone
over there that they are being assholes to their children, I have my
validation.
I can't wait to meet some of you in person!!! I made the Waterpark
gathering, but we swam too much, and I don't know if I will make the
Northeast gathering or the Live and Learn. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ rules
sometimes. :-(
Jodi
swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
And this is why I love this board. No nonsense. I hate nonsense.
Well, I hate this sort of nonsense anyway.
This board is my backup! I'm one of the most experienced unschoolers
over at the other board. But here, I am just a little tiny baby! LOL
Thanks for all of this! Seriously! Thank you! When I tell someone
over there that they are being assholes to their children, I have my
validation.
I can't wait to meet some of you in person!!! I made the Waterpark
gathering, but we swam too much, and I don't know if I will make the
Northeast gathering or the Live and Learn. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ rules
sometimes. :-(
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>
>
> 10
>
> and if any of you want to pop on over and give a few people a serious
> ass whooping... please feel free!
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> OhMyGAWD! Ten???
>
> And if they don't hurry and intervene his future ability to read and
> write will disappear forever!
>
> Call the National Guard! Call the NEA! Call Dr Seuss!!!
>
> Bunch of nuts!
>
> Joyce will be by soon with a calm head and fingers. <g>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
> __________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesley Cross
"RE: training it may be a poor choice of words but she's right. People
with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
or it respects them as a person."
I absolutely disagree. No, they don't grow out of it, but people with
dyslexia can learn to work through it without having anything forced upon
them. Anything that can be trained can be learned and discovered without
force or coercion.
My oldest child has never received any sort of diagnosis officially, but
would qualify for many (and what gives me so little faith in diagnoses is
that I think *most* people could get at least one diagnoses of something
that would be labeled a "learning disability"- probably the biggest misnomer
out there). Dyslexia is one of them. His path to reading and writing on
his own has been amazing to watch. No one has ever told him that he is
disabled. We have had discussions about things he finds frustrating (not a
whole lot as he keeps most of that to himself) and the way he sees things
and how there are other people out in the world who see things the same way,
even though it's not the same way the majority of people do. We've talked
about how there are different approaches that he can take to help him
interpret written words and write things in a way they will be more
understandable for any audience, and the possibility of exploring those if
he ever thinks it would be useful to him. But mostly, he's taken his time
and worked things out on his own. From what I can tell, his personal
approach is about making meaning vs. detailed phonics. We live in a
reading household. We enjoy stories. We've never limited his access to
books on tape or cd, which I think has given him the ability to learn to
love reading and stories and the way words can be put together without the
pressure of having to deal with text. He still prefers to have long books
read to him and I do on occasions that we can't get the book on cd. His own
reading is generally of a more informational nature. But he definitely
keeps most of this to himself and it did take time. He began to do some
reading independently at about the age of 10, and unlike many stories about
kids who suddenly can read anything, he has gradually gained proficiency.
Decoding and reading aren't really the same thing. My son has difficulty
decoding and maybe that won't ever come easily to him (and maybe someday it
will, because I don't believe any prognosis can take into account the
amazing things that can happen when your life is based in absolute freedom
and joy), but he has a great understanding of the complexities of story and
meaning, as well as a heck of a vocabulary. He's just joined an online book
club to discuss Star Wars books with adults and he's thrilled about it. Of
course, I already know more about Star Wars than I ever imagined I'd want to
know and I'll be reading the book out loud for him..but it also makes a
connection and gives us yet one more thing we can discuss together. And I
get to have fun making up voices!
Lesley
In SC w. Logan (ds13), Ayden (dd7) and Alethia (dd3)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with dyslexia don't grow out of it, they have to practice and learn to
work through it. We can like it or not but there are things we have
to do TO our children for their own good whether or not they like it
or it respects them as a person."
I absolutely disagree. No, they don't grow out of it, but people with
dyslexia can learn to work through it without having anything forced upon
them. Anything that can be trained can be learned and discovered without
force or coercion.
My oldest child has never received any sort of diagnosis officially, but
would qualify for many (and what gives me so little faith in diagnoses is
that I think *most* people could get at least one diagnoses of something
that would be labeled a "learning disability"- probably the biggest misnomer
out there). Dyslexia is one of them. His path to reading and writing on
his own has been amazing to watch. No one has ever told him that he is
disabled. We have had discussions about things he finds frustrating (not a
whole lot as he keeps most of that to himself) and the way he sees things
and how there are other people out in the world who see things the same way,
even though it's not the same way the majority of people do. We've talked
about how there are different approaches that he can take to help him
interpret written words and write things in a way they will be more
understandable for any audience, and the possibility of exploring those if
he ever thinks it would be useful to him. But mostly, he's taken his time
and worked things out on his own. From what I can tell, his personal
approach is about making meaning vs. detailed phonics. We live in a
reading household. We enjoy stories. We've never limited his access to
books on tape or cd, which I think has given him the ability to learn to
love reading and stories and the way words can be put together without the
pressure of having to deal with text. He still prefers to have long books
read to him and I do on occasions that we can't get the book on cd. His own
reading is generally of a more informational nature. But he definitely
keeps most of this to himself and it did take time. He began to do some
reading independently at about the age of 10, and unlike many stories about
kids who suddenly can read anything, he has gradually gained proficiency.
Decoding and reading aren't really the same thing. My son has difficulty
decoding and maybe that won't ever come easily to him (and maybe someday it
will, because I don't believe any prognosis can take into account the
amazing things that can happen when your life is based in absolute freedom
and joy), but he has a great understanding of the complexities of story and
meaning, as well as a heck of a vocabulary. He's just joined an online book
club to discuss Star Wars books with adults and he's thrilled about it. Of
course, I already know more about Star Wars than I ever imagined I'd want to
know and I'll be reading the book out loud for him..but it also makes a
connection and gives us yet one more thing we can discuss together. And I
get to have fun making up voices!
Lesley
In SC w. Logan (ds13), Ayden (dd7) and Alethia (dd3)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
> -=-=-=-=-**My daughter is from an orphanage in China. She has NO language. No
>
> Children like clean butts. Adults too.
>
> Why would a child choose not to have a diaper changed?
>
> Why would an adult choose not to have a diaper changed?
>
> What could you do to change that? And make it more appealing?
>
Chinese, no English. She was beaten and neglected. Being left in the
same diaper for days until wounds formed was not unusual for her. She
would choose not to have her diaper changed because when she was
changed she was beaten for not being potty trained. She has to
overcome the fear of being beaten. AND it's my duty to make sure she
doesn't have enormous sores that cover 50% or more of her bottom. So
she's being changed against her will, and every time we do it, she
learns a beating isn't part of the changing process. Each time, the
diapering process becomes easier on us both and slowly the tension and
fear is losing it's grip on my daughter. The problem with this list
is you all *seem* to presuppose bio children who share a common
language with their parents.>
>**What is the other option Kelly? Perf her ear drum for her? Maybe
> She doesn't want to be treated for a
> nasty inner ear infection...should I say "Oh hell, whatever...if she
> wants the meds she'll ask?" Meanwhile she's suffering tremendous pain
> and fevers and her ear drum could perforate.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Either THIS *or* THAT---no other options/possibilities?
general anesthesia for 2 weeks? Hiding meds in food is a big NO NO
for children that were starved, food should be comfort not punishment.
So she gets the meds, and then we do our best to comfort her. And we
recognize that this is temporary. With good care she shouldn't have
these issues anymore. Eventually, when she's ready, she will acquire
language. Once she does and truly understands the words we can talk
about consequences and choices. But until then, you would suggest
what?
>**Children who have learned NO ONE cares about their comfort and
> -=-=-=-=-
>
>
> What's more important?
> Health and safety or choosing everything?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I'd say 99% of humans choose health and safety, so I believe that
> choosing everything is more important.
>
safety, emotional security and happiness DO NOT choose health and
safety. That is false. Children who have never been given anything
are frequently overwhelmed by choices and so those choices have to be
limited until they can process their new situations.
>**I'd say that making sure my daughter's body is cared for, that her
> When the smaller, weaker human is not honored.
>
safety is my top concern and her feelings of comfort and meeting her
needs are honored IS the most important thing I can do for her at this
point. Until she can understand what it means to have choices and she
can figures out that when she needs something her parents will provide
it she can't make decisions for herself. (Additionally she's
developmentally about 12 months old and how many choices do you give a
1 yr old anyway?) Do you allow a 12 month old child to decide not to
take meds?
>** Speaking for my child, see above as to why she doesn't know the
> First off, why DOESN'T the child know the consequences?
>
> ANd why do you think a child cannot appreciate the consequences and
> make a rational decision concerning them???
>
>
consequences and why it's beyond her capability at this point in time
to make a rational decision. Do you think she can? How do you
suggest a child home 4 weeks and neglected and abused for 3.5 yrs be
made to understand how to make a rational decision concerning any
choice? Right now she can choose between two colors of sippy cups
because she knows what she likes and language isn't necessary. I
give her the ability to choose what she can at this point in time and
I make decisions for her when choices aren't easy to make. Deciding
for her is preferable to her dissolving into frustration because it's
too overwhelming for her to make the choices herself.
I know you all don't like my opinions and that's OK but you all seem
very quick to attribute abusive and cruel intentions to all parents
when I think more often than not parents do what they know (right or
wrong) and they are scared to do anything different. And FWIW you
should not assume all parents have blank slate kids with no issues to
overcome. Some of us have special circumstances.
Karen
carenkh
Early on, before I was connected with many unschoolers, I took a LOT
of comfort from reading books and articles about Sudbury Valley
School, a "school" where kids choose what to do, not from a preset
menu, but are allowed true freedom. They have never, in their 40 years
of existence, had a child diagnosed with a "reading disorder", and all
graduates of the school know how to read. As Kelly so very eloquently
and firmly put it, a child will read *when they are ready to*. I have
no doubt my youngest would have *developed* dyslexia if he was in a
school setting, or I pushed reading on him at all. He used to
frequently *say* things in a jumbled-up way, and he didn't even hear
that's what he'd done - to him, it sounded just like what had been
said to him. That's lessened a LOT as he's gotten older.
It probably would have gotten worse if I felt as if I had to TRAIN him
to say things right, and TRAIN him to read. Instead, I kept trusting
that he it would all straighten out, and he would read when he was
ready. Even when he was frustrated with not knowing how to read. He
didn't want any type of lessons, following along with a finger, etc.
So he was frustrated for a time. I kept reminding him that when he was
ready, he would read, and until then, either his brother or I would
read to him.
It's working out. In its (and his) own time.
peace,
Caren
of comfort from reading books and articles about Sudbury Valley
School, a "school" where kids choose what to do, not from a preset
menu, but are allowed true freedom. They have never, in their 40 years
of existence, had a child diagnosed with a "reading disorder", and all
graduates of the school know how to read. As Kelly so very eloquently
and firmly put it, a child will read *when they are ready to*. I have
no doubt my youngest would have *developed* dyslexia if he was in a
school setting, or I pushed reading on him at all. He used to
frequently *say* things in a jumbled-up way, and he didn't even hear
that's what he'd done - to him, it sounded just like what had been
said to him. That's lessened a LOT as he's gotten older.
It probably would have gotten worse if I felt as if I had to TRAIN him
to say things right, and TRAIN him to read. Instead, I kept trusting
that he it would all straighten out, and he would read when he was
ready. Even when he was frustrated with not knowing how to read. He
didn't want any type of lessons, following along with a finger, etc.
So he was frustrated for a time. I kept reminding him that when he was
ready, he would read, and until then, either his brother or I would
read to him.
It's working out. In its (and his) own time.
peace,
Caren
Lisa
Chiming in here as a dyslexic person who's parents spent a small
fortune on "special training" My parents drove 3 hrs one way once a
week to bring me from the Coast of NC to a specialized center in
Durham NC at the Hill Center for tutoring, spent summers sending me to
expensive boarding school programs at LD schools, put me in all sorts
of private schools and so on and on.
Long story short... I could read at age 3! I have no word attack and
couldn't learn phonics no matter how much money was paid to a tutor!
I memorized MILLIONS of words and was a fluent reader and speller
from a very early age... I don't remember not being able to read so it
might have been before age 3 but that's when my mother realized I
could read (I spelled biscuit for my brother for his homework!)
I also realized ON MY OWN that closing one eye made the words stop
their dance across the page! I still do that sometimes! Anyway my
point is that I wasn't exactly left to figure it out on my own or
unschooled to learn to read consciously on the part of my parents
because I did it before they ever considered any formal education! I
can't imagine what would have happened if I had been dragged to all
those places in order to learn to read at all!!!
I am so thankful to have been born into a print rich house where
everyone read, where there were books and I was read to extensively
for hours and hours and the relationship between print and words was
made naturally without coercive behavior on the part of my parents...
wait! HEY that sounds like unschooling! Too bad they bought the
party line at the traditional schools that without specialized
training and tutoring I would never make it through school! I like
to think I made it DESPITE the training!
Lisa Blocker
fortune on "special training" My parents drove 3 hrs one way once a
week to bring me from the Coast of NC to a specialized center in
Durham NC at the Hill Center for tutoring, spent summers sending me to
expensive boarding school programs at LD schools, put me in all sorts
of private schools and so on and on.
Long story short... I could read at age 3! I have no word attack and
couldn't learn phonics no matter how much money was paid to a tutor!
I memorized MILLIONS of words and was a fluent reader and speller
from a very early age... I don't remember not being able to read so it
might have been before age 3 but that's when my mother realized I
could read (I spelled biscuit for my brother for his homework!)
I also realized ON MY OWN that closing one eye made the words stop
their dance across the page! I still do that sometimes! Anyway my
point is that I wasn't exactly left to figure it out on my own or
unschooled to learn to read consciously on the part of my parents
because I did it before they ever considered any formal education! I
can't imagine what would have happened if I had been dragged to all
those places in order to learn to read at all!!!
I am so thankful to have been born into a print rich house where
everyone read, where there were books and I was read to extensively
for hours and hours and the relationship between print and words was
made naturally without coercive behavior on the part of my parents...
wait! HEY that sounds like unschooling! Too bad they bought the
party line at the traditional schools that without specialized
training and tutoring I would never make it through school! I like
to think I made it DESPITE the training!
Lisa Blocker
Deb
Whoa there! You *were* talking about "training dyslexics" and pushing
a child's physical therapy to screaming pain - in both cases, the
children involved are fully capable of choosing, considering, and
discussing options. Yes, in most cases (including where this thread
started from), we're talking about children with generally age-
appropriate development in terms of physical, emotional and
psychological development - which does NOT include school grade "age
level" stuff. Your little one is not on that level yet (you indicate
she's at about a year old in terms of development). I *know* I
didn't "ask" DS when he was a year old if he wanted medication for
his ear infection(s) - I'd just give it to him. But, once he was able
to communicate (which your little one will someday do), there were
way more options. For that matter, I *chose* to stop giving him a
particular medication when he was a wee one because it caused his
body to shake - not a lot, not earthshaking, but not "normal" for him
either. It meant that I spent a lot of time sitting in a steamy
bathroom instead of just giving him this medication (for a minor
respiratory infection), way less convenient and more time consuming
that just giving him the medication (BTW it was a listed side effect
of the medication at that).
But jumping from the discussion of "dyslexics need special training
for their own good" to the complex parenting needed for a very unique
and painful situation is really not a reasonable jump. Kind of like
the saying that hard cases make bad law. In some ways, it sounds
like, while we (in general) may be presuming a fairly neurotypical,
physically average, child in a fairly average parenting situation,
you seem to be going over the opposite extreme, presuming that "for
the child's own good" is an overall good strategy in general. While
it is perhaps necessary for now with your own little one, that is in
no way the typical situation for the majority of people. And, if the
child who is being pushed to screaming is capable of discussing the
situation, that should be happening (as some here have indicated that
they have personal experience with similar situations and it should
not be pushed to that extreme). As much freedom and choice as is
*possible* is the overall idea.
While you have a difficult and unique situation, please do not expect
that giving a recommendation of "doing it for the child's own good"
is going to go unquestioned here.
--Deb
a child's physical therapy to screaming pain - in both cases, the
children involved are fully capable of choosing, considering, and
discussing options. Yes, in most cases (including where this thread
started from), we're talking about children with generally age-
appropriate development in terms of physical, emotional and
psychological development - which does NOT include school grade "age
level" stuff. Your little one is not on that level yet (you indicate
she's at about a year old in terms of development). I *know* I
didn't "ask" DS when he was a year old if he wanted medication for
his ear infection(s) - I'd just give it to him. But, once he was able
to communicate (which your little one will someday do), there were
way more options. For that matter, I *chose* to stop giving him a
particular medication when he was a wee one because it caused his
body to shake - not a lot, not earthshaking, but not "normal" for him
either. It meant that I spent a lot of time sitting in a steamy
bathroom instead of just giving him this medication (for a minor
respiratory infection), way less convenient and more time consuming
that just giving him the medication (BTW it was a listed side effect
of the medication at that).
But jumping from the discussion of "dyslexics need special training
for their own good" to the complex parenting needed for a very unique
and painful situation is really not a reasonable jump. Kind of like
the saying that hard cases make bad law. In some ways, it sounds
like, while we (in general) may be presuming a fairly neurotypical,
physically average, child in a fairly average parenting situation,
you seem to be going over the opposite extreme, presuming that "for
the child's own good" is an overall good strategy in general. While
it is perhaps necessary for now with your own little one, that is in
no way the typical situation for the majority of people. And, if the
child who is being pushed to screaming is capable of discussing the
situation, that should be happening (as some here have indicated that
they have personal experience with similar situations and it should
not be pushed to that extreme). As much freedom and choice as is
*possible* is the overall idea.
While you have a difficult and unique situation, please do not expect
that giving a recommendation of "doing it for the child's own good"
is going to go unquestioned here.
--Deb
Deb
--- In [email protected], "Lesley Cross" <lcross@...>
wrote:
for the characters but by about 1/4 of the way in it all sort of blends
into a mush. DH is much better at keeping all the voices separate (and
inventing really fun ones).
--Deb
wrote:
> And IThat's always my biggest problem - I start out with different voices
> get to have fun making up voices!
>
for the characters but by about 1/4 of the way in it all sort of blends
into a mush. DH is much better at keeping all the voices separate (and
inventing really fun ones).
--Deb