Amanda Horein

My friend wrote me this in an email discussion about how her daughter
screams all morning before they leave the house about her clothes. To answer
a few questions first... She is not an unschooler, not even a homeschooler,
but she comes to me for advice and I can't help but to advocate for her
daughter. I watch her daughter while my friend works. Stella is 3 1/2. Oh,
and she is sensory sensitive, but even that seems better when she is at my
house than when she is with her mom.

-=-=-=-
Where do you draw the line? I honestly think it's a control thing. She
does have to learn that there are times when there will be authority...
Everyone has bosses.
-=-=-=-

How would you respond to that?

I haven't sent the email yet, but I wrote...

*I don't draw the line. I don't even pick up the stick.

Of course it is a control thing. You are trying to control her. Probably
because your parents tried to control you. Probably because that is what
mainstream society says is right. It's not. What right do YOU have to
control HER? Would you like it if Dave said some of the things to you that
you say to her? How would this scenario go over in your house...

Dave walks into the bedroom in the morning and you are pulling out clothes
from the closet to wear for the day. He tells you that you can't pick out
new clothes. You already picked out clothes last night. You HAVE to wear the
clothes you picked out last night. This is non-negotiable.*

I am pretty confident with those answers but not sure how to approach the
thing about "everyone has bosses".

Sometimes I wonder if it is pointless to even be discussing this with her.
Maybe I shouldn't, but we have been watching Stella for nearly 2 years now.
She is part of our family and I feel like I need to stand up for her.
Advocate for her like I would my own.

I am sorry to come to you folks with things like this. I find myself often
(like every time we leave the house or every time my friend emails me with a
problem like this or every time I talk to my SIL, etc) getting aggravated by
the way they treat their children and feeling like I need to say something.
Most of the time I leave it alone, but then I feel like I am doing a
disservice to their children. So silly. I want the whole world to see things
from their children's point of view which I am pretty good at arguing.
--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/

"What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold from them
impoverishes them."

My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle Thedaker

I've heard this argument many times (that everyone has bosses) and it's
always rankled me. Although true in a way, it's NOT true in the way that
the proponents are trying to make it look. Yes, when you have a job (for
example), you have a boss. But you are *choosing* to have that job,
therefore *choosing* to have that boss. You can do any number of things to
get out of a boss situation which you no longer wish to have. Children
don't have this option. Stella doesn't have the option to say, "I'm going
to find a new family that respects me." She's stuck with the one she's got
(at least for a number of years yet). That, to me, is a world of
difference. It's like trying to compare a job that you choose in the "real
world" with jail. Horrible comparison.



Shell & Da Boys



_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Amanda Horein
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 11:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] "Everyone has bosses"



My friend wrote me this in an email discussion about how her daughter
screams all morning before they leave the house about her clothes. To answer
a few questions first... She is not an unschooler, not even a homeschooler,
but she comes to me for advice and I can't help but to advocate for her
daughter. I watch her daughter while my friend works. Stella is 3 1/2. Oh,
and she is sensory sensitive, but even that seems better when she is at my
house than when she is with her mom.

-=-=-=-
Where do you draw the line? I honestly think it's a control thing. She
does have to learn that there are times when there will be authority...
Everyone has bosses.
-=-=-=-

How would you respond to that?

I haven't sent the email yet, but I wrote...

*I don't draw the line. I don't even pick up the stick.

Of course it is a control thing. You are trying to control her. Probably
because your parents tried to control you. Probably because that is what
mainstream society says is right. It's not. What right do YOU have to
control HER? Would you like it if Dave said some of the things to you that
you say to her? How would this scenario go over in your house...

Dave walks into the bedroom in the morning and you are pulling out clothes
from the closet to wear for the day. He tells you that you can't pick out
new clothes. You already picked out clothes last night. You HAVE to wear the
clothes you picked out last night. This is non-negotiable.*

I am pretty confident with those answers but not sure how to approach the
thing about "everyone has bosses".

Sometimes I wonder if it is pointless to even be discussing this with her.
Maybe I shouldn't, but we have been watching Stella for nearly 2 years now.
She is part of our family and I feel like I need to stand up for her.
Advocate for her like I would my own.

I am sorry to come to you folks with things like this. I find myself often
(like every time we leave the house or every time my friend emails me with a
problem like this or every time I talk to my SIL, etc) getting aggravated by
the way they treat their children and feeling like I need to say something.
Most of the time I leave it alone, but then I feel like I am doing a
disservice to their children. So silly. I want the whole world to see things
from their children's point of view which I am pretty good at arguing.
--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
http://whatmykidsta <http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/>
ughtme.blogspot.com/

"What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold from them
impoverishes them."

My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda Horein <horein@...>

I am pretty confident with those answers but not sure how to approach
the
thing about "everyone has bosses".

-=-=-=-=-

I'd tell her to *prove it*!

*I* don't have a boss.

I've been self-employed most of my life. In fact, I think the amount
I've paid into social security is like---$237. <g> I'm 47. And I can't
count the number of businesses I've owned without thinking hard.

I HATE having a boss. I'm an excellent employee in that I see that
business as my own and treat it that way. I work HARD and want to
please and have great ideas that many bosses can't handle implementing
because they aren't necessarily conventional enough. Wimps. <g>

But I believe in risk, and I'm willing to take all the blame as well as
all the praise for my actions.

I'm NOT a "team player."

There are zillions od others like me---no bosses. We're called
entrepreneurs. <g>

SO--- "Everyone has bosses." That's not true.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org




________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

swissarmy_wife

And the rest of us who don't have bosses are just individuals. I have
no boss. I have no business. I'm just an individual. A free
individual. Like my kids. :-)


>
> There are zillions od others like me---no bosses. We're called
> entrepreneurs. <g>
>
> SO--- "Everyone has bosses." That's not true.
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>

trektheory

Although everyone has bosses -- adults have the option to change jobs!
I look at it more of -- is this how YOU would want to be treated?
Why would you treat your child worse than you wish to be treated?

At 3.5, so very much of a child's world is out of control. They are
struggling to gain full control over their own bodies, and not always
successful, etc. That is a great age to start teaching children about
caring and compassion... which, ultimately will extend to your friend.

Linda

--- In [email protected], "Amanda Horein" <horein@...>
wrote:
>
> My friend wrote me this in an email discussion about how her daughter
> screams all morning before they leave the house about her clothes.
To answer
> a few questions first... She is not an unschooler, not even a
homeschooler,
> but she comes to me for advice and I can't help but to advocate for her
> daughter. I watch her daughter while my friend works. Stella is 3
1/2. Oh,
> and she is sensory sensitive, but even that seems better when she is
at my
> house than when she is with her mom.
>
> -=-=-=-
> Where do you draw the line? I honestly think it's a control thing. She
> does have to learn that there are times when there will be authority...
> Everyone has bosses.
> -=-=-=-
>
> How would you respond to that?
>
> I haven't sent the email yet, but I wrote...
>
> *I don't draw the line. I don't even pick up the stick.
>
> Of course it is a control thing. You are trying to control her. Probably
> because your parents tried to control you. Probably because that is what
> mainstream society says is right. It's not. What right do YOU have to
> control HER? Would you like it if Dave said some of the things to
you that
> you say to her? How would this scenario go over in your house...
>
> Dave walks into the bedroom in the morning and you are pulling out
clothes
> from the closet to wear for the day. He tells you that you can't
pick out
> new clothes. You already picked out clothes last night. You HAVE to
wear the
> clothes you picked out last night. This is non-negotiable.*
>
> I am pretty confident with those answers but not sure how to
approach the
> thing about "everyone has bosses".
>
> Sometimes I wonder if it is pointless to even be discussing this
with her.
> Maybe I shouldn't, but we have been watching Stella for nearly 2
years now.
> She is part of our family and I feel like I need to stand up for her.
> Advocate for her like I would my own.
>
> I am sorry to come to you folks with things like this. I find myself
often
> (like every time we leave the house or every time my friend emails
me with a
> problem like this or every time I talk to my SIL, etc) getting
aggravated by
> the way they treat their children and feeling like I need to say
something.
> Most of the time I leave it alone, but then I feel like I am doing a
> disservice to their children. So silly. I want the whole world to
see things
> from their children's point of view which I am pretty good at arguing.
> --
> Amanda
> Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
> Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
> Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
> http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
>
> "What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold
from them
> impoverishes them."
>
> My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>


And the rest of us who don't have bosses are just individuals. I have
no boss. I have no business. I'm just an individual. A free
individual. Like my kids. :-)

-=-=-=-

YEAH! What about folks who don't have bosses at all?

Huge number! HUGE!

You're not the boss of me! <g>

-==-=-=-

> There are zillions od others like me---no bosses. We're called
> entrepreneurs. <g>

-=-=-=-

And I had to laugh at my typo: zillions ODD others like me. <BWG>




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

Debra Rossing

>There are zillions od others like me---no bosses. We're called
entrepreneurs. <g>
And sometimes we're called "Mom" and "Dad" - not entrepreneurs in the
business sense but also DH has no "boss" - he's home fulltime with DS.


Deb


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sha bish

Simply tell her to try letting her daughter make some decisions on
her own and see how smoothly things will go. Surely her 3 1/2 yr old
is capable of choosing her own clothes.

There's nothing wrong with your email but she won't understand it as
you do. She does not see anything wrong with a parent controlling
her child so I just feel it would be a waste of time, you know?

Sharita

--- In [email protected], "Amanda Horein"
<horein@...> wrote:
>
> My friend wrote me this in an email discussion about how her
daughter
> screams all morning before they leave the house about her clothes.
To answer
> a few questions first... She is not an unschooler, not even a
homeschooler,
> but she comes to me for advice and I can't help but to advocate for
her
> daughter. I watch her daughter while my friend works. Stella is 3
1/2. Oh,
> and she is sensory sensitive, but even that seems better when she
is at my
> house than when she is with her mom.
>
> -=-=-=-
> Where do you draw the line? I honestly think it's a control
thing. She
> does have to learn that there are times when there will be
authority...
> Everyone has bosses.
> -=-=-=-
>
> How would you respond to that?
>
> I haven't sent the email yet, but I wrote...
>
> *I don't draw the line. I don't even pick up the stick.
>
> Of course it is a control thing. You are trying to control her.
Probably
> because your parents tried to control you. Probably because that is
what
> mainstream society says is right. It's not. What right do YOU have
to
> control HER? Would you like it if Dave said some of the things to
you that
> you say to her? How would this scenario go over in your house...
>
> Dave walks into the bedroom in the morning and you are pulling out
clothes
> from the closet to wear for the day. He tells you that you can't
pick out
> new clothes. You already picked out clothes last night. You HAVE to
wear the
> clothes you picked out last night. This is non-negotiable.*
>
> I am pretty confident with those answers but not sure how to
approach the
> thing about "everyone has bosses".
>
> Sometimes I wonder if it is pointless to even be discussing this
with her.
> Maybe I shouldn't, but we have been watching Stella for nearly 2
years now.
> She is part of our family and I feel like I need to stand up for
her.
> Advocate for her like I would my own.
>
> I am sorry to come to you folks with things like this. I find
myself often
> (like every time we leave the house or every time my friend emails
me with a
> problem like this or every time I talk to my SIL, etc) getting
aggravated by
> the way they treat their children and feeling like I need to say
something.
> Most of the time I leave it alone, but then I feel like I am doing a
> disservice to their children. So silly. I want the whole world to
see things
> from their children's point of view which I am pretty good at
arguing.
> --
> Amanda
> Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
> Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
> Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
> http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
>
> "What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold
from them
> impoverishes them."
>
> My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Krisula

If you don't feel like debate you could offer her a solution. Maybe it
would inspire her to come up with more solutions herself.



Something along the lines of " Your dd soshould start her day happy
especially if she's coming to spend the day at my house .<g>

Please, why don't you let her keep her jimmies on and just pack a couple of
outfits you know she usually feels comfortable in. She can change here
whenever she's ready. I see no point in starting the day with a power
struggle when you could spend those precious minutes doing something more
loving like sharing breakfast or a hug."



Just a thought. Maybe you have more ideas that would spark her problem
solving mind.



As far as the "everyone has bosses". Remark possibly a quick "I don't" with
an impish grin would suffice.



Krisy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laura Frantz

>She does have to learn that there are times when there will be
authority...
> Everyone has bosses.

Just like we have to toughen up our kids while they're little to deal
with the "real" world when they're older. Alfie Khon compares that
reasoning to the idea that since the environment is full of toxins,
pollution and pesticides, we should expose our kids to as much toxins,
pollution and pesticides as possible while they're still young.

Laura
http://iatethesandbox.blogspot.com

diana jenner

On Feb 6, 2008 12:35 PM, Laura Frantz <ljlaurajoy@...> wrote:

>
> >She does have to learn that there are times when there will be
> authority...
> > Everyone has bosses.
>
> Just like we have to toughen up our kids while they're little to deal
> with the "real" world when they're older. Alfie Khon compares that
> reasoning to the idea that since the environment is full of toxins,
> pollution and pesticides, we should expose our kids to as much toxins,
> pollution and pesticides as possible while they're still young.
>













You're *really* not advocating we CREATE ickiness in our lives for our
children to experience, are you???
And if that is what Alfie Kohn *really* means, he's lost one major fan...

(I'm gonna breathe deeply and come back to this ...)

> --
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jodi Bezzola

Email can be so tricky sometimes because there is no tone of voice. It's quite suprising actually that there isn't *more* miscommunication at times!

I also read Laura's comment as facetious, and understood it as: the warped choice to put our kids in situations when they are little that will 'toughen them up for the real world' makes as much warped sense as exposing our kids on purpose to toxins, etc. just because our world has lots of them. Yep, I agree with Alfie, warped thinking indeed.

Jodi
who has gotten herself offended and has had a few major broohahas in her life with people because she couldn't 'hear' how the other person intended the communication to 'sound'!

Kendrah Nilsestuen <carebear-79@...> wrote:
**You're *really* not advocating we CREATE ickiness in our lives for our
children to experience, are you???
And if that is what Alfie Kohn *really* means, he's lost one major
fan...

(I'm gonna breathe deeply and come back to this ...)**

Hi Diana,

I'm not Laura but I think a misinterpretation of her email may of
happened. I think (she can correct me if I'm wrong) that she was
being facetious. Try rereading it again. :) I've pasted it below.

**Just like we have to toughen up our kids while they're little to deal
with the "real" world when they're older. Alfie Khon compares that
reasoning to the idea that since the environment is full of toxins,
pollution and pesticides, we should expose our kids to as much toxins,
pollution and pesticides as possible while they're still young.**

I think she is saying that Alfie Kohn is saying how ridiculous (my
word) it is to think we should expose our children to these things,
simply because these things exist. Just as Laura was saying it is
ridiculous (my word again) to think we should toughen our kids up
because the real world is tough. Iykwim

Kendrah
(who has on occasion misinterpreted an email or two herself!)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laura Frantz

--- In [email protected], Kendrah Nilsestuen
>
> I'm not Laura but I think a misinterpretation of her email may of
> happened. I think (she can correct me if I'm wrong) that she was
> being facetious.

Yes! Yes, I was being facetious. I was comparing the idea that kids
need to get used to being bossed around with the idea that kids need
to get used to being poisoned--neither idea makes sense to me. I only
had a minute to post, so I just posted and ran. Sorry to cause
confusion! I had just read Alfie Khon's analogy yesterday and it
really stuck with me. Now I'm seeing connections with his reasoning
everywhere I turn. I'm obsessed!

Laura
http://iatethesandbox.blogspot.com

Amanda Horein

-=-=-=-
There's nothing wrong with your email but she won't understand it as
you do. She does not see anything wrong with a parent controlling
her child so I just feel it would be a waste of time, you know?
-=-=-=-

Actually, she is quite open minded and has changed a lot of her parenting
since I started watching her daughter.

Maybe this is Smallville talking (we LOVE the series and have seen the first
6 seasons now), but I can't just give up on people. If I help one person see
what a difference respecting children can hold, then I have made the world a
better place.

--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/

"What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold from them
impoverishes them."

My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Feb 7, 2008 7:34 AM, Laura Frantz <ljlaurajoy@...> wrote:

> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Kendrah Nilsestuen
> > > I'm not Laura but I think a misinterpretation of her email may of
> > happened. I think (she can correct me if I'm wrong) that she was
> > being facetious.
>
> Yes! Yes, I was being facetious. I was comparing the idea that kids
> need to get used to being bossed around with the idea that kids need
> to get used to being poisoned--neither idea makes sense to me. I only
> had a minute to post, so I just posted and ran. Sorry to cause
> confusion! I had just read Alfie Khon's analogy yesterday and it
> really stuck with me. Now I'm seeing connections with his reasoning
> everywhere I turn. I'm obsessed!
>
















I was waiting for the ;) I was hoping I was to assume a ;) I'm so glad there
was a ;)!!!


--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]