Potty Goers!
swissarmy_wife
When my kids used the potty, I playfully say they are potty goers. I
don't care for the term potty "training".
My eldest who is 9 started using the potty regularly on his 2cond
birthday. No problems. Very few accidents. No wet beds. Piece of cake!
I mistakenly thought the whole potty thing would be just as easy with
my next one! NOPE! So now I have a 3 year old who is sort in between
the diaper and undies thing. He has no issues with peeing on the
potty. He WILL NOT poop on the potty. I'm not trying to push him to
do either. This isn't really the problem.
He throws a MAJOR fit and becomes very upset when it comes time to be
changed. This one will stay in a wet or poopy diaper until it soaks
through all his clothing and the couch or whatever he is sitting in.
He is a creature of comfort and likes to be in control (my little
capricorn).
My first was so easy to transition that i feel very inexperienced with
this one. Obviously he won't do this when he is 18, I'm hoping for
some ideas to help him transition a little more smoothly.
(I'm now pregnant with my third and seriously considering the EC
method. Does anyone here have any experience with that?)
Thanks in advance!
-Heather
don't care for the term potty "training".
My eldest who is 9 started using the potty regularly on his 2cond
birthday. No problems. Very few accidents. No wet beds. Piece of cake!
I mistakenly thought the whole potty thing would be just as easy with
my next one! NOPE! So now I have a 3 year old who is sort in between
the diaper and undies thing. He has no issues with peeing on the
potty. He WILL NOT poop on the potty. I'm not trying to push him to
do either. This isn't really the problem.
He throws a MAJOR fit and becomes very upset when it comes time to be
changed. This one will stay in a wet or poopy diaper until it soaks
through all his clothing and the couch or whatever he is sitting in.
He is a creature of comfort and likes to be in control (my little
capricorn).
My first was so easy to transition that i feel very inexperienced with
this one. Obviously he won't do this when he is 18, I'm hoping for
some ideas to help him transition a little more smoothly.
(I'm now pregnant with my third and seriously considering the EC
method. Does anyone here have any experience with that?)
Thanks in advance!
-Heather
Deb
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
months. Not for "training" but simply because he couldn't tolerate
being laid down and immobilized for any length of time. So, with
pullups, I could change him while he was standing. Yes, it took more
time and effort (and my knees and back knew it!) But, overall it was
way more worth it than wrestling him. With your growing belly
(congrats on #3) you might need to have some sort of 'platform' to
stand him on so you aren't needing to bend as much. DS was in pullups
until he was finally ready for the whole potty idea - once he was
basically dry most of the time in pullups (using the potty fairly
regularly) we went to plain white briefs (by then we had a house with
a washer and dryer) - packs and packs of plain white briefs (when he
outgrew those, we bundled them into a ball to play with indoors - it
was almost the size of a volleyball! Easy to grab, relatively soft but
dense)
--Deb
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>No experience with EC but FWIW we switched DS to pullups at around 18
> He throws a MAJOR fit and becomes very upset when it comes time to
>be
> changed. This one will stay in a wet or poopy diaper until it soaks
> through all his clothing and the couch or whatever he is sitting
>in.
> He is a creature of comfort and likes to be in control (my little
> capricorn).
months. Not for "training" but simply because he couldn't tolerate
being laid down and immobilized for any length of time. So, with
pullups, I could change him while he was standing. Yes, it took more
time and effort (and my knees and back knew it!) But, overall it was
way more worth it than wrestling him. With your growing belly
(congrats on #3) you might need to have some sort of 'platform' to
stand him on so you aren't needing to bend as much. DS was in pullups
until he was finally ready for the whole potty idea - once he was
basically dry most of the time in pullups (using the potty fairly
regularly) we went to plain white briefs (by then we had a house with
a washer and dryer) - packs and packs of plain white briefs (when he
outgrew those, we bundled them into a ball to play with indoors - it
was almost the size of a volleyball! Easy to grab, relatively soft but
dense)
--Deb
Faith Void
Is it possible for him to go around naked if he would like? It may be
messy at first but fairly quickly they learn their signs. I did a kind
of EC thing with my kidlets before I ever heard of EC. I just looked
for/listen to them and their cues, kind of like nursing on cue with
potty stuff. Dd#1 was out of dipes at 15 months (that was really
weird) and ds before 2. This was with a lot of nakedness and cloth
diapers. But I am into that kind of thing. We are doing the same style
with dd#2 but she's only 4 months and thus still needs me to be
involved totally.
I nannied my niece for several years including when she was toilet
learning. She was the same way, would pee in the toilet but only poop
in diapers, and only disposables. One day my sister for forgot diapers
and I had only cloth and DN really had to go. We tried "everything",
her parents had already tried all the coercive measures (rewards,
etc). I couldn't just go get diapers which would have been ideal so I
had to really stretch my creative thinking to help her. We had just
got a puppy and it was still having "accidents" so we had down paper
in the bathroom. I asked DN if she'd like to try and go like Milo (the
dog) on the paper. So she did. She just needed this little change
because after that she went in the toilet no problems, totally diaper
free. I don't mean that you should put down paper and "train" him like
a dog just an anecdote about thinking outside the box.
Good luck.
Faith
messy at first but fairly quickly they learn their signs. I did a kind
of EC thing with my kidlets before I ever heard of EC. I just looked
for/listen to them and their cues, kind of like nursing on cue with
potty stuff. Dd#1 was out of dipes at 15 months (that was really
weird) and ds before 2. This was with a lot of nakedness and cloth
diapers. But I am into that kind of thing. We are doing the same style
with dd#2 but she's only 4 months and thus still needs me to be
involved totally.
I nannied my niece for several years including when she was toilet
learning. She was the same way, would pee in the toilet but only poop
in diapers, and only disposables. One day my sister for forgot diapers
and I had only cloth and DN really had to go. We tried "everything",
her parents had already tried all the coercive measures (rewards,
etc). I couldn't just go get diapers which would have been ideal so I
had to really stretch my creative thinking to help her. We had just
got a puppy and it was still having "accidents" so we had down paper
in the bathroom. I asked DN if she'd like to try and go like Milo (the
dog) on the paper. So she did. She just needed this little change
because after that she went in the toilet no problems, totally diaper
free. I don't mean that you should put down paper and "train" him like
a dog just an anecdote about thinking outside the box.
Good luck.
Faith
On Jan 30, 2008 3:11 PM, Deb <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
>
> <heatherbean@...> wrote:
> >
> > He throws a MAJOR fit and becomes very upset when it comes time to
> >be
> > changed. This one will stay in a wet or poopy diaper until it soaks
> > through all his clothing and the couch or whatever he is sitting
> >in.
> > He is a creature of comfort and likes to be in control (my little
> > capricorn).
> No experience with EC but FWIW we switched DS to pullups at around 18
> months. Not for "training" but simply because he couldn't tolerate
> being laid down and immobilized for any length of time. So, with
> pullups, I could change him while he was standing. Yes, it took more
> time and effort (and my knees and back knew it!) But, overall it was
> way more worth it than wrestling him. With your growing belly
> (congrats on #3) you might need to have some sort of 'platform' to
> stand him on so you aren't needing to bend as much. DS was in pullups
> until he was finally ready for the whole potty idea - once he was
> basically dry most of the time in pullups (using the potty fairly
> regularly) we went to plain white briefs (by then we had a house with
> a washer and dryer) - packs and packs of plain white briefs (when he
> outgrew those, we bundled them into a ball to play with indoors - it
> was almost the size of a volleyball! Easy to grab, relatively soft but
> dense)
>
> --Deb
>
>
swissarmy_wife
Gosh we did the naked thing for so long. He loves being free! he
also loves his undies. Whether he is in undies or naked he will ask
for a diaper to poop in. I know all his cues, he just would rather
run and hide behind a chair while giggling and poop there (in a
diaper). He must know it's frustrating me a little. Truth be told
I'm a little disappointed that he isn't "potty trained". My other one
was so easy! I guess I'll re-evaluate my behavior concerning the
toilet training.
I'm also laughing... because the son I'm referring to, happens to be
named, Milo. Maybe its I sign I should just paper the floor. LOL
--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
also loves his undies. Whether he is in undies or naked he will ask
for a diaper to poop in. I know all his cues, he just would rather
run and hide behind a chair while giggling and poop there (in a
diaper). He must know it's frustrating me a little. Truth be told
I'm a little disappointed that he isn't "potty trained". My other one
was so easy! I guess I'll re-evaluate my behavior concerning the
toilet training.
I'm also laughing... because the son I'm referring to, happens to be
named, Milo. Maybe its I sign I should just paper the floor. LOL
--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
>soft but
> Is it possible for him to go around naked if he would like? It may be
> messy at first but fairly quickly they learn their signs. I did a kind
> of EC thing with my kidlets before I ever heard of EC. I just looked
> for/listen to them and their cues, kind of like nursing on cue with
> potty stuff. Dd#1 was out of dipes at 15 months (that was really
> weird) and ds before 2. This was with a lot of nakedness and cloth
> diapers. But I am into that kind of thing. We are doing the same style
> with dd#2 but she's only 4 months and thus still needs me to be
> involved totally.
> I nannied my niece for several years including when she was toilet
> learning. She was the same way, would pee in the toilet but only poop
> in diapers, and only disposables. One day my sister for forgot diapers
> and I had only cloth and DN really had to go. We tried "everything",
> her parents had already tried all the coercive measures (rewards,
> etc). I couldn't just go get diapers which would have been ideal so I
> had to really stretch my creative thinking to help her. We had just
> got a puppy and it was still having "accidents" so we had down paper
> in the bathroom. I asked DN if she'd like to try and go like Milo (the
> dog) on the paper. So she did. She just needed this little change
> because after that she went in the toilet no problems, totally diaper
> free. I don't mean that you should put down paper and "train" him like
> a dog just an anecdote about thinking outside the box.
> Good luck.
> Faith
>
> On Jan 30, 2008 3:11 PM, Deb <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
> >
> > <heatherbean@> wrote:
> > >
> > > He throws a MAJOR fit and becomes very upset when it comes time to
> > >be
> > > changed. This one will stay in a wet or poopy diaper until it soaks
> > > through all his clothing and the couch or whatever he is sitting
> > >in.
> > > He is a creature of comfort and likes to be in control (my little
> > > capricorn).
> > No experience with EC but FWIW we switched DS to pullups at around 18
> > months. Not for "training" but simply because he couldn't tolerate
> > being laid down and immobilized for any length of time. So, with
> > pullups, I could change him while he was standing. Yes, it took more
> > time and effort (and my knees and back knew it!) But, overall it was
> > way more worth it than wrestling him. With your growing belly
> > (congrats on #3) you might need to have some sort of 'platform' to
> > stand him on so you aren't needing to bend as much. DS was in pullups
> > until he was finally ready for the whole potty idea - once he was
> > basically dry most of the time in pullups (using the potty fairly
> > regularly) we went to plain white briefs (by then we had a house with
> > a washer and dryer) - packs and packs of plain white briefs (when he
> > outgrew those, we bundled them into a ball to play with indoors - it
> > was almost the size of a volleyball! Easy to grab, relatively
> > dense)
> >
> > --Deb
> >
> >
>
diana jenner
On Jan 30, 2008 3:04 PM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
I really like my knees up when I poop, so I have a little step-stool in
front of the toilet for me. I rarely poop in public because my feet don't
touch the floor and it's just not comfy without a bit of traction.
A friend of mine once had a boyfriend from India who would squat over the
toilet (feet on the seat) to poop comfortably. (we talked about this because
I was staying at her house and left "Mommy's Pooping Stool" at home)
American toileting practices aren't Human Body friendly. Especially not
Smaller Than Average Human Bodies!!
Careful not to rush this stage... the intimacy of diaper changing/toilet
helping is all too short lived. What an honor it is to serve this stage
joyfully! (and remember today's kid in diapers is tomorrow's changer of
mama's diapers!!)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Gosh we did the naked thing for so long. He loves being free! he alsoDoes he have a *toilet* where he can have his feet flat on the floor?
> loves his undies. Whether he is in undies or naked he will ask for a diaper
> to poop in. I know all his cues, he just would rather run and hide behind a
> chair while giggling and poop there (in a diaper). He must know it's
> frustrating me a little. Truth be told
> I'm a little disappointed that he isn't "potty trained". My other one
> was so easy! I guess I'll re-evaluate my behavior concerning the
> toilet training.
>
I really like my knees up when I poop, so I have a little step-stool in
front of the toilet for me. I rarely poop in public because my feet don't
touch the floor and it's just not comfy without a bit of traction.
A friend of mine once had a boyfriend from India who would squat over the
toilet (feet on the seat) to poop comfortably. (we talked about this because
I was staying at her house and left "Mommy's Pooping Stool" at home)
American toileting practices aren't Human Body friendly. Especially not
Smaller Than Average Human Bodies!!
Careful not to rush this stage... the intimacy of diaper changing/toilet
helping is all too short lived. What an honor it is to serve this stage
joyfully! (and remember today's kid in diapers is tomorrow's changer of
mama's diapers!!)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
> Does he have a *toilet* where he can have his feet flat on the floor?You know even know i was aware of this fact, I never really thought of
> I really like my knees up when I poop, so I have a little step-stool in
> front of the toilet for me. I rarely poop in public because my feet
it in terms of potty training. I bet he would like to have stool, as
he prefers the big potty over the little potty. Thanks!
Karen Buxcel
My sweet 3yo pees great on the toily, but will only poop in a diaper. He
runs around here naked all day long, holding it, obviously. The minute we
put a dipe on him, he disappears and tells me he's going to do his workout.
Gotta love it!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
runs around here naked all day long, holding it, obviously. The minute we
put a dipe on him, he disappears and tells me he's going to do his workout.
Gotta love it!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
~~Careful not to rush this stage... the intimacy of diaper changing/toilet
helping is all too short lived. What an honor it is to serve this stage
joyfully! (and remember today's kid in diapers is tomorrow's changer of
mama's diapers!!)~~
I love this. My dad once told me he loves changing the girls diapers because he gets to have eye contact and undivided attention time with them...precious grampa :o) I think they will help with his diapers without hesitation.
I have one girls who every 3 days or so just goes into the bathroom on her own to poop, and one who has only pooped on the potty 3x in the last 6 months...and I don't care at all. I have friends whose 4 year olds are still in diapers, and the only reason most people seem to be rushed is the panic to enroll them in preschool. I mean, they learned to walk and talk with no 'teaching' from us, so I'm pretty sure my girls can pick up the no-brainer of where to poop and pee and how to wipe just fine with no 'teaching' from me :o).
Jodi
diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
helping is all too short lived. What an honor it is to serve this stage
joyfully! (and remember today's kid in diapers is tomorrow's changer of
mama's diapers!!)~~
I love this. My dad once told me he loves changing the girls diapers because he gets to have eye contact and undivided attention time with them...precious grampa :o) I think they will help with his diapers without hesitation.
I have one girls who every 3 days or so just goes into the bathroom on her own to poop, and one who has only pooped on the potty 3x in the last 6 months...and I don't care at all. I have friends whose 4 year olds are still in diapers, and the only reason most people seem to be rushed is the panic to enroll them in preschool. I mean, they learned to walk and talk with no 'teaching' from us, so I'm pretty sure my girls can pick up the no-brainer of where to poop and pee and how to wipe just fine with no 'teaching' from me :o).
Jodi
diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
On Jan 30, 2008 3:04 PM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
> Gosh we did the naked thing for so long. He loves being free! he also
> loves his undies. Whether he is in undies or naked he will ask for a diaper
> to poop in. I know all his cues, he just would rather run and hide behind a
> chair while giggling and poop there (in a diaper). He must know it's
> frustrating me a little. Truth be told
> I'm a little disappointed that he isn't "potty trained". My other one
> was so easy! I guess I'll re-evaluate my behavior concerning the
> toilet training.
>
Does he have a *toilet* where he can have his feet flat on the floor?
I really like my knees up when I poop, so I have a little step-stool in
front of the toilet for me. I rarely poop in public because my feet don't
touch the floor and it's just not comfy without a bit of traction.
A friend of mine once had a boyfriend from India who would squat over the
toilet (feet on the seat) to poop comfortably. (we talked about this because
I was staying at her house and left "Mommy's Pooping Stool" at home)
American toileting practices aren't Human Body friendly. Especially not
Smaller Than Average Human Bodies!!
Careful not to rush this stage... the intimacy of diaper changing/toilet
helping is all too short lived. What an honor it is to serve this stage
joyfully! (and remember today's kid in diapers is tomorrow's changer of
mama's diapers!!)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
oh that's interesting my ds who is 5 squats on the toilet, even at
public rest rooms he MUST take off all his bottom clothes and
shoes/socks. And I have the same stool I had from childhood that I use
for the same purpose.
public rest rooms he MUST take off all his bottom clothes and
shoes/socks. And I have the same stool I had from childhood that I use
for the same purpose.
On Jan 30, 2008 10:43 PM, diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
> Does he have a *toilet* where he can have his feet flat on the floor?
> I really like my knees up when I poop, so I have a little step-stool in
> front of the toilet for me. I rarely poop in public because my feet don't
> touch the floor and it's just not comfy without a bit of traction.
> A friend of mine once had a boyfriend from India who would squat over the
> toilet (feet on the seat) to poop comfortably. (we talked about this
> because
> I was staying at her house and left "Mommy's Pooping Stool" at home)
> American toileting practices aren't Human Body friendly. Especially not
> Smaller Than Average Human Bodies!!
>
> Careful not to rush this stage... the intimacy of diaper changing/toilet
> helping is all too short lived. What an honor it is to serve this stage
> joyfully! (and remember today's kid in diapers is tomorrow's changer of
> mama's diapers!!)
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Alysia
I had to look it up because this sounded so like my 2nd ds and, yep, he's a Capricorn, too. Hmmmmmmm...My 1st started using the toilet at just about 2. He watched my dad do it a few times and then he just did it. No training, no encouraging from anyone, nothing. He did have issues with wetting the bed later but that was emotional and revolved around his deadbeat dad.
DS2 seemed to show interest in the potty from about a year and a half on. Apparently, though, all he wanted to do was sit on it. He never actually went in it. LOL When he was almost 3 he was running around my mother's house naked and peed on her rug. Next time he had to go he told my mom and she gently suggested they try going in the toilet so it wouldn't make a mess and he was all for it. From that day forward he consistently peed in the toilet without one accident even at night. I don't believe in "potty training", either, so no one did anything other than make using the toilet accessible to get ds to use it. He still wouldn't poop in the toilet, though, so he was still wearing Pull Ups during the day (which was really hard for me because I love my cloth diapers). Anyway, at some point around 3 years, 4 months he suddenly decided it was time to start pooping in the toilet and he did and, again, has been doing it consistently since. I was pregnant with #3 at the time,
too. The only time he had an accident was when he was out shopping with his dad and neither one was paying attention. A friend later told me she had read somewhere that that was the exact age that "experts" say most kids get it and just start using the toilet on their own. So, that's my story, fwiw.
I don't have any experience with EC. I've thought about it a looked into it a little but decided against it for 2 reasons. First, I'm just not disciplined enough to do it. Second, like I said above, I love my CDs too much.
Alysia
---------------------------------
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DS2 seemed to show interest in the potty from about a year and a half on. Apparently, though, all he wanted to do was sit on it. He never actually went in it. LOL When he was almost 3 he was running around my mother's house naked and peed on her rug. Next time he had to go he told my mom and she gently suggested they try going in the toilet so it wouldn't make a mess and he was all for it. From that day forward he consistently peed in the toilet without one accident even at night. I don't believe in "potty training", either, so no one did anything other than make using the toilet accessible to get ds to use it. He still wouldn't poop in the toilet, though, so he was still wearing Pull Ups during the day (which was really hard for me because I love my cloth diapers). Anyway, at some point around 3 years, 4 months he suddenly decided it was time to start pooping in the toilet and he did and, again, has been doing it consistently since. I was pregnant with #3 at the time,
too. The only time he had an accident was when he was out shopping with his dad and neither one was paying attention. A friend later told me she had read somewhere that that was the exact age that "experts" say most kids get it and just start using the toilet on their own. So, that's my story, fwiw.
I don't have any experience with EC. I've thought about it a looked into it a little but decided against it for 2 reasons. First, I'm just not disciplined enough to do it. Second, like I said above, I love my CDs too much.
Alysia
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swissarmy_wife
Yes we Capricorn have big control issues!!! LOL (i am one too!)
Thanks for this thoughtful post. Seems like our situations are VERY
similar. I'm really hoping he catches on. I don't want two in
diapers! *GASP*
I placed a stoll in front of the potty this morning. Although he
didn't poop, when he peed he definitely expressed his approval of the
stool. :-)
Thanks for this thoughtful post. Seems like our situations are VERY
similar. I'm really hoping he catches on. I don't want two in
diapers! *GASP*
I placed a stoll in front of the potty this morning. Although he
didn't poop, when he peed he definitely expressed his approval of the
stool. :-)
--- In [email protected], Alysia <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> I had to look it up because this sounded so like my 2nd ds and, yep,
he's a Capricorn, too. Hmmmmmmm...My 1st started using the toilet at
just about 2. He watched my dad do it a few times and then he just did
it. No training, no encouraging from anyone, nothing. He did have
issues with wetting the bed later but that was emotional and revolved
around his deadbeat dad.
>
> DS2 seemed to show interest in the potty from about a year and a
half on. Apparently, though, all he wanted to do was sit on it. He
never actually went in it. LOL When he was almost 3 he was running
around my mother's house naked and peed on her rug. Next time he had
to go he told my mom and she gently suggested they try going in the
toilet so it wouldn't make a mess and he was all for it. From that day
forward he consistently peed in the toilet without one accident even
at night. I don't believe in "potty training", either, so no one did
anything other than make using the toilet accessible to get ds to use
it. He still wouldn't poop in the toilet, though, so he was still
wearing Pull Ups during the day (which was really hard for me because
I love my cloth diapers). Anyway, at some point around 3 years, 4
months he suddenly decided it was time to start pooping in the toilet
and he did and, again, has been doing it consistently since. I was
pregnant with #3 at the time,
> too. The only time he had an accident was when he was out shopping
with his dad and neither one was paying attention. A friend later told
me she had read somewhere that that was the exact age that "experts"
say most kids get it and just start using the toilet on their own. So,
that's my story, fwiw.
>
> I don't have any experience with EC. I've thought about it a
looked into it a little but decided against it for 2 reasons. First,
I'm just not disciplined enough to do it. Second, like I said above, I
love my CDs too much.
>
> Alysia
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
Search.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
alohabun
--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
toilets..cringe!!) until he was 5. Laurie
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
>My ds did that (squatted naked..yes, feet on the public
> oh that's interesting my ds who is 5 squats on the toilet, even at
> public rest rooms he MUST take off all his bottom clothes and
> shoes/socks.
toilets..cringe!!) until he was 5. Laurie
alohabun
Does anyone here have any experience with that?)
read "Diaper Free" (by Ingrid Bauer) and had a friend who was
practicing it which helped to "see" it and be able to ask many
questions. I'd be happy to share our experiences. Feel free to
contact me directly. Laurie
> Thanks in advance!I used EC/Natural Infant Hygiene with my second and third children. I
>
> -Heather
>
read "Diaper Free" (by Ingrid Bauer) and had a friend who was
practicing it which helped to "see" it and be able to ask many
questions. I'd be happy to share our experiences. Feel free to
contact me directly. Laurie