???'s, how to develop faith about unschooling math....
Tina Bragdon
Hi, I am asking these questions as I know many of you have older
children than mine and the benefit of time and experience, and also
asking them in light of "strewing" and if it is manipulative, about
teaching vs being a facilitator, and of having faith that unschooling
will be "enough" if that makes any sense.
I am having a hard time overcoming my math fears and trying to relax
about it, especially now that dd is of mandatory school age in my
province and I have to submit progress reports (no actual "evidence")
twice a year. It has just made my fears hit more close to home.
It's
not that I am trying to relax from a curriculum I have imposed (we
have
not used any), it's that I feel so confused and unsure trying to sort
out the whole math thing in my mind that I feel I haven't done near
as
much as I could in helping my kids discover the patterns,
relationships, games, etc that so many unschoolers say math is.
I am in the process of reading Math Power by Patricia Kenschaft after
hearing Pam Sooroshian talk about it on tape. It has been great in
showing me about the "language" of math, incorporating it in real
life,
etc, and doing this seems so "easy" with ds as he has recently become
very interested in counting everything, the clock, obviously DELIGHTS
in numbers/quantity and how it can change, all that sort of stuff,
and
due to reading this book I feel more able to "facilitate" an explore
this with him. It feels "natural" to point it out to him.
With dd however I feel like I missed that boat in a way as (ok, I
know
it is a schooly comparison but it is for puroposes of illustration
for
you all) she would maybe have a kindy-gr 1 level of understanding in
math, I know it is just from talking about what we see in everyday
life, cooking, reading a book, she knows "intuitively" somehow what
is
bigger, which thing is 3rd in line, etc and that has all "gelled"
over
a period of the last few years, but I guess I have nothing "ongoing"
at
the moment to show me how unschooling math "works", or how she can
get
farther along in it. With reading for example, I can see how all the
playing Starfall she was attracted to and being read to and fiddling
with alphabet letters
on the fridge and CONSTANTLY asking what things say has led to her
reading, and the same now slowly with writing and spelling, because
she "needs" them to for the things she wants to do (write on her
pictures, do a comic strip and such) My faith in her reading without
lessons developed at the same time I could see reading happening, one
feeding off the other y'know?
I know this is all because dd is "school age" now. I also have a
hard
time not fretting about the arithmetic/4 basic operations aspect of
math. Yes I know dd ps'ed peers play with blocks and rods, etc BUT
with the agenda and learning objectives the teacher expects of them
I
remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all
my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers. I guess I am thinking does playing dice for YEARS
teach you enough math to get by as an adult (the everday consumer
math,
not algebra or anything!)
Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long division"
is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" without all
those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once or
twice
lead to skill? Does it need to? I just remember all those years of
being made to practice over and over again. Again this is something
I have never
seen addressed online by my fellow unschoolers.
DD can sense any sort of "this is meant to teach you...'this'" I
think. I have so many sites bookmarked, I have so many books like
Family Math for Young Children, Games for Math by Penny Kaye sitting
on
the shelf pretty much unused because I can't balance the just doing
it
with her because it is "neat" and a fun game, with the fear that if
she
doesn't "practice" or do the "dice game" enough she won't "have her
facts down". I see so many math things like computer games,
workbooks,
etc that are thinly disguised drill, like those dollar-store-books
that
have comparing numbers of 3 types of toys and drawing a circle graph
(gr 2 curriculum in my province BTW), or adding 45+3 in picture
form.
My dd would look at something like that and thing "what the heck
for?"
Is that even relevant to a 7 yr old? LOL even a writing workbook
given
to her by my MIL turned her off, I didn't care and just let her go at
it on blank paper and she learned to write, it's like she sees
the "expectations" of workbooks and the more structured stuff loud
and
clear.
Where does introducing stuff fall into place in light of being an
unschooler? What about strewing? I know bigger numbers have come up
in our lives, do I get Cusinaire rods or something, not to do
the exercises "everyday at the same time" like my structured hs-ing
friends do but to
have as a resource around to show her place value or comparing 10 to
100 say if it came up, just to "have it there?" OR would that be too
much manipulation and expectation? I guess I am having a hard time
having "resources" around without the fears and concerns she is
not "using" it if that makes any sense.
Sorry this is so long and so jumbled as I pour this out. I am so
confused in this area. I am looking for personal stories especially
from you with older kids, and for a kick in the butt, and for
suggestion as to how to relax.
Tina, dp James, dd Stephanie (7) and ds Jonathan (4) here in Manitoba
Canada
children than mine and the benefit of time and experience, and also
asking them in light of "strewing" and if it is manipulative, about
teaching vs being a facilitator, and of having faith that unschooling
will be "enough" if that makes any sense.
I am having a hard time overcoming my math fears and trying to relax
about it, especially now that dd is of mandatory school age in my
province and I have to submit progress reports (no actual "evidence")
twice a year. It has just made my fears hit more close to home.
It's
not that I am trying to relax from a curriculum I have imposed (we
have
not used any), it's that I feel so confused and unsure trying to sort
out the whole math thing in my mind that I feel I haven't done near
as
much as I could in helping my kids discover the patterns,
relationships, games, etc that so many unschoolers say math is.
I am in the process of reading Math Power by Patricia Kenschaft after
hearing Pam Sooroshian talk about it on tape. It has been great in
showing me about the "language" of math, incorporating it in real
life,
etc, and doing this seems so "easy" with ds as he has recently become
very interested in counting everything, the clock, obviously DELIGHTS
in numbers/quantity and how it can change, all that sort of stuff,
and
due to reading this book I feel more able to "facilitate" an explore
this with him. It feels "natural" to point it out to him.
With dd however I feel like I missed that boat in a way as (ok, I
know
it is a schooly comparison but it is for puroposes of illustration
for
you all) she would maybe have a kindy-gr 1 level of understanding in
math, I know it is just from talking about what we see in everyday
life, cooking, reading a book, she knows "intuitively" somehow what
is
bigger, which thing is 3rd in line, etc and that has all "gelled"
over
a period of the last few years, but I guess I have nothing "ongoing"
at
the moment to show me how unschooling math "works", or how she can
get
farther along in it. With reading for example, I can see how all the
playing Starfall she was attracted to and being read to and fiddling
with alphabet letters
on the fridge and CONSTANTLY asking what things say has led to her
reading, and the same now slowly with writing and spelling, because
she "needs" them to for the things she wants to do (write on her
pictures, do a comic strip and such) My faith in her reading without
lessons developed at the same time I could see reading happening, one
feeding off the other y'know?
I know this is all because dd is "school age" now. I also have a
hard
time not fretting about the arithmetic/4 basic operations aspect of
math. Yes I know dd ps'ed peers play with blocks and rods, etc BUT
with the agenda and learning objectives the teacher expects of them
I
remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all
my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers. I guess I am thinking does playing dice for YEARS
teach you enough math to get by as an adult (the everday consumer
math,
not algebra or anything!)
Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long division"
is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" without all
those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once or
twice
lead to skill? Does it need to? I just remember all those years of
being made to practice over and over again. Again this is something
I have never
seen addressed online by my fellow unschoolers.
DD can sense any sort of "this is meant to teach you...'this'" I
think. I have so many sites bookmarked, I have so many books like
Family Math for Young Children, Games for Math by Penny Kaye sitting
on
the shelf pretty much unused because I can't balance the just doing
it
with her because it is "neat" and a fun game, with the fear that if
she
doesn't "practice" or do the "dice game" enough she won't "have her
facts down". I see so many math things like computer games,
workbooks,
etc that are thinly disguised drill, like those dollar-store-books
that
have comparing numbers of 3 types of toys and drawing a circle graph
(gr 2 curriculum in my province BTW), or adding 45+3 in picture
form.
My dd would look at something like that and thing "what the heck
for?"
Is that even relevant to a 7 yr old? LOL even a writing workbook
given
to her by my MIL turned her off, I didn't care and just let her go at
it on blank paper and she learned to write, it's like she sees
the "expectations" of workbooks and the more structured stuff loud
and
clear.
Where does introducing stuff fall into place in light of being an
unschooler? What about strewing? I know bigger numbers have come up
in our lives, do I get Cusinaire rods or something, not to do
the exercises "everyday at the same time" like my structured hs-ing
friends do but to
have as a resource around to show her place value or comparing 10 to
100 say if it came up, just to "have it there?" OR would that be too
much manipulation and expectation? I guess I am having a hard time
having "resources" around without the fears and concerns she is
not "using" it if that makes any sense.
Sorry this is so long and so jumbled as I pour this out. I am so
confused in this area. I am looking for personal stories especially
from you with older kids, and for a kick in the butt, and for
suggestion as to how to relax.
Tina, dp James, dd Stephanie (7) and ds Jonathan (4) here in Manitoba
Canada
Michelle Thedaker
Tina,
I've been thinking about math and learning specific facts, etc. for a few
days, and would like to share my rambling thoughts. They seem to go along
with your questions, perhaps we can come up with some answers together. :-)
The more I embrace the idea of my kids just *living*, as opposed to them
constantly learning, the easier the whole thing becomes for me. I think the
unschooling community talks about natural math in order to illustrate what
*can* be learned naturally (which is everything!), instead of it being a
checklist of things that your child *should* be learning naturally. If you
daughter doesn't care about measuring cooking ingredients in order to pick
up fractions and volumes and such, so what? If there comes a time in her
life when she needs to know those things in order to do something she wants
to do, she'll learn it. If she doesn't ever need it, why should she know
about it? I imagine there are oodles of math concepts which I know nothing
about, but it doesn't hinder my life currently. If it ever came up, I'd
learn the new stuff I needed to know.
As far as drilling and memorization, again, if someone finds that they would
like to have faster access to number results than they currently do, they
can easily find ways to speed their thinking. But why make those
calcuations quickly if you don't need to? I memorized the times tables as a
kid (ugh!!!) but I often do not remember what a certain answer is for a
multiplication question in real life. Certainly I understand what
multiplication is and how it works, so it's quick work to figure out what I
need to know. If I had an activity (job, hobby, etc.) that used
multiplication often, I'd likely put some effort toward speeding up my
calculating skills. No difficulty there, no stress or feeling bad that I
couldn't do it before. Just something new to figure out.
You might also want to cut yourself some slack on the differing interest in
numbers between your son and daughter. Some people love numbers and working
them, some don't. Something very funny just happened with my kids (while I
was typing this!) that illustrates this perfectly. They are playing a game
on the Xbox, and on that system many games have "achievements" which you can
earn for doing certain parts of the game in certain ways. My older son (8.5
years) adores this and finds it very important to play just the right way in
order to unlock the achievements. My 4.5yo son doesn't care at all, doesn't
even really understand what it's all about. So they are playing together
right now, and screaming at each other about what characters to play. Turns
out the 8.5yo wanted to unlock an achievement for the 4.5yo, and was being
very insistent about doing the game a certain way. I pointed out to him
that not everyone is interested in the same things, and what is of paramount
importance to him might be meangingless for someone else. He was stunned.
We don't all want the same things? Wow, that's hard to grasp. I think we
all fall into that trap of thinking on occaision. :-)
To make it all more complicated, when you are required to report a child's
learning to an authority figure this becomes more stressful than it really
needs to be. That's where the fear based thinking comes up, and we start
pushing for our kids to live in ways that are easily documented and
convenient for other people. But life isn't like that. It's like when my
kids were babies and I breastfed them to sleep. This drove my mom crazy
because when they stayed with her for a few hours, she found putting them
down for a nap (which she felt they needed at a certain time) was very
difficult, since they were accustomed to nursing to sleep. She made a big
argument for why I should teach them to fall asleep on their own, trying to
make it sound like it was for the child's benefit. When really it was for
*her* convenience! I made that clear to her, and she eventually got the
idea. I think reporting our children's learning is very much like this. If
they would just do seatwork in a planned way, it was make the reporting so
much easier! But that's for someone else's convenience, not for my child's
benefit. So I figure out the little subject chart as best I can, making it
a game for myself. But I work very hard on my own thinking so that I won't
force my kids into something "educational" so that I can write it on the
chart.
My lord, I've written a novel here! But hopefully this will open more ideas
from everyone on how we think about all of this and how to calm down about
it!
Shell
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tina Bragdon
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] ???'s, how to develop faith about unschooling
math....
Hi, I am asking these questions as I know many of you have older
children than mine and the benefit of time and experience, and also
asking them in light of "strewing" and if it is manipulative, about
teaching vs being a facilitator, and of having faith that unschooling
will be "enough" if that makes any sense.
I am having a hard time overcoming my math fears and trying to relax
about it, especially now that dd is of mandatory school age in my
province and I have to submit progress reports (no actual "evidence")
twice a year. It has just made my fears hit more close to home.
It's
not that I am trying to relax from a curriculum I have imposed (we
have
not used any), it's that I feel so confused and unsure trying to sort
out the whole math thing in my mind that I feel I haven't done near
as
much as I could in helping my kids discover the patterns,
relationships, games, etc that so many unschoolers say math is.
I am in the process of reading Math Power by Patricia Kenschaft after
hearing Pam Sooroshian talk about it on tape. It has been great in
showing me about the "language" of math, incorporating it in real
life,
etc, and doing this seems so "easy" with ds as he has recently become
very interested in counting everything, the clock, obviously DELIGHTS
in numbers/quantity and how it can change, all that sort of stuff,
and
due to reading this book I feel more able to "facilitate" an explore
this with him. It feels "natural" to point it out to him.
With dd however I feel like I missed that boat in a way as (ok, I
know
it is a schooly comparison but it is for puroposes of illustration
for
you all) she would maybe have a kindy-gr 1 level of understanding in
math, I know it is just from talking about what we see in everyday
life, cooking, reading a book, she knows "intuitively" somehow what
is
bigger, which thing is 3rd in line, etc and that has all "gelled"
over
a period of the last few years, but I guess I have nothing "ongoing"
at
the moment to show me how unschooling math "works", or how she can
get
farther along in it. With reading for example, I can see how all the
playing Starfall she was attracted to and being read to and fiddling
with alphabet letters
on the fridge and CONSTANTLY asking what things say has led to her
reading, and the same now slowly with writing and spelling, because
she "needs" them to for the things she wants to do (write on her
pictures, do a comic strip and such) My faith in her reading without
lessons developed at the same time I could see reading happening, one
feeding off the other y'know?
I know this is all because dd is "school age" now. I also have a
hard
time not fretting about the arithmetic/4 basic operations aspect of
math. Yes I know dd ps'ed peers play with blocks and rods, etc BUT
with the agenda and learning objectives the teacher expects of them
I
remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all
my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers. I guess I am thinking does playing dice for YEARS
teach you enough math to get by as an adult (the everday consumer
math,
not algebra or anything!)
Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long division"
is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" without all
those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once or
twice
lead to skill? Does it need to? I just remember all those years of
being made to practice over and over again. Again this is something
I have never
seen addressed online by my fellow unschoolers.
DD can sense any sort of "this is meant to teach you...'this'" I
think. I have so many sites bookmarked, I have so many books like
Family Math for Young Children, Games for Math by Penny Kaye sitting
on
the shelf pretty much unused because I can't balance the just doing
it
with her because it is "neat" and a fun game, with the fear that if
she
doesn't "practice" or do the "dice game" enough she won't "have her
facts down". I see so many math things like computer games,
workbooks,
etc that are thinly disguised drill, like those dollar-store-books
that
have comparing numbers of 3 types of toys and drawing a circle graph
(gr 2 curriculum in my province BTW), or adding 45+3 in picture
form.
My dd would look at something like that and thing "what the heck
for?"
Is that even relevant to a 7 yr old? LOL even a writing workbook
given
to her by my MIL turned her off, I didn't care and just let her go at
it on blank paper and she learned to write, it's like she sees
the "expectations" of workbooks and the more structured stuff loud
and
clear.
Where does introducing stuff fall into place in light of being an
unschooler? What about strewing? I know bigger numbers have come up
in our lives, do I get Cusinaire rods or something, not to do
the exercises "everyday at the same time" like my structured hs-ing
friends do but to
have as a resource around to show her place value or comparing 10 to
100 say if it came up, just to "have it there?" OR would that be too
much manipulation and expectation? I guess I am having a hard time
having "resources" around without the fears and concerns she is
not "using" it if that makes any sense.
Sorry this is so long and so jumbled as I pour this out. I am so
confused in this area. I am looking for personal stories especially
from you with older kids, and for a kick in the butt, and for
suggestion as to how to relax.
Tina, dp James, dd Stephanie (7) and ds Jonathan (4) here in Manitoba
Canada
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been thinking about math and learning specific facts, etc. for a few
days, and would like to share my rambling thoughts. They seem to go along
with your questions, perhaps we can come up with some answers together. :-)
The more I embrace the idea of my kids just *living*, as opposed to them
constantly learning, the easier the whole thing becomes for me. I think the
unschooling community talks about natural math in order to illustrate what
*can* be learned naturally (which is everything!), instead of it being a
checklist of things that your child *should* be learning naturally. If you
daughter doesn't care about measuring cooking ingredients in order to pick
up fractions and volumes and such, so what? If there comes a time in her
life when she needs to know those things in order to do something she wants
to do, she'll learn it. If she doesn't ever need it, why should she know
about it? I imagine there are oodles of math concepts which I know nothing
about, but it doesn't hinder my life currently. If it ever came up, I'd
learn the new stuff I needed to know.
As far as drilling and memorization, again, if someone finds that they would
like to have faster access to number results than they currently do, they
can easily find ways to speed their thinking. But why make those
calcuations quickly if you don't need to? I memorized the times tables as a
kid (ugh!!!) but I often do not remember what a certain answer is for a
multiplication question in real life. Certainly I understand what
multiplication is and how it works, so it's quick work to figure out what I
need to know. If I had an activity (job, hobby, etc.) that used
multiplication often, I'd likely put some effort toward speeding up my
calculating skills. No difficulty there, no stress or feeling bad that I
couldn't do it before. Just something new to figure out.
You might also want to cut yourself some slack on the differing interest in
numbers between your son and daughter. Some people love numbers and working
them, some don't. Something very funny just happened with my kids (while I
was typing this!) that illustrates this perfectly. They are playing a game
on the Xbox, and on that system many games have "achievements" which you can
earn for doing certain parts of the game in certain ways. My older son (8.5
years) adores this and finds it very important to play just the right way in
order to unlock the achievements. My 4.5yo son doesn't care at all, doesn't
even really understand what it's all about. So they are playing together
right now, and screaming at each other about what characters to play. Turns
out the 8.5yo wanted to unlock an achievement for the 4.5yo, and was being
very insistent about doing the game a certain way. I pointed out to him
that not everyone is interested in the same things, and what is of paramount
importance to him might be meangingless for someone else. He was stunned.
We don't all want the same things? Wow, that's hard to grasp. I think we
all fall into that trap of thinking on occaision. :-)
To make it all more complicated, when you are required to report a child's
learning to an authority figure this becomes more stressful than it really
needs to be. That's where the fear based thinking comes up, and we start
pushing for our kids to live in ways that are easily documented and
convenient for other people. But life isn't like that. It's like when my
kids were babies and I breastfed them to sleep. This drove my mom crazy
because when they stayed with her for a few hours, she found putting them
down for a nap (which she felt they needed at a certain time) was very
difficult, since they were accustomed to nursing to sleep. She made a big
argument for why I should teach them to fall asleep on their own, trying to
make it sound like it was for the child's benefit. When really it was for
*her* convenience! I made that clear to her, and she eventually got the
idea. I think reporting our children's learning is very much like this. If
they would just do seatwork in a planned way, it was make the reporting so
much easier! But that's for someone else's convenience, not for my child's
benefit. So I figure out the little subject chart as best I can, making it
a game for myself. But I work very hard on my own thinking so that I won't
force my kids into something "educational" so that I can write it on the
chart.
My lord, I've written a novel here! But hopefully this will open more ideas
from everyone on how we think about all of this and how to calm down about
it!
Shell
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tina Bragdon
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] ???'s, how to develop faith about unschooling
math....
Hi, I am asking these questions as I know many of you have older
children than mine and the benefit of time and experience, and also
asking them in light of "strewing" and if it is manipulative, about
teaching vs being a facilitator, and of having faith that unschooling
will be "enough" if that makes any sense.
I am having a hard time overcoming my math fears and trying to relax
about it, especially now that dd is of mandatory school age in my
province and I have to submit progress reports (no actual "evidence")
twice a year. It has just made my fears hit more close to home.
It's
not that I am trying to relax from a curriculum I have imposed (we
have
not used any), it's that I feel so confused and unsure trying to sort
out the whole math thing in my mind that I feel I haven't done near
as
much as I could in helping my kids discover the patterns,
relationships, games, etc that so many unschoolers say math is.
I am in the process of reading Math Power by Patricia Kenschaft after
hearing Pam Sooroshian talk about it on tape. It has been great in
showing me about the "language" of math, incorporating it in real
life,
etc, and doing this seems so "easy" with ds as he has recently become
very interested in counting everything, the clock, obviously DELIGHTS
in numbers/quantity and how it can change, all that sort of stuff,
and
due to reading this book I feel more able to "facilitate" an explore
this with him. It feels "natural" to point it out to him.
With dd however I feel like I missed that boat in a way as (ok, I
know
it is a schooly comparison but it is for puroposes of illustration
for
you all) she would maybe have a kindy-gr 1 level of understanding in
math, I know it is just from talking about what we see in everyday
life, cooking, reading a book, she knows "intuitively" somehow what
is
bigger, which thing is 3rd in line, etc and that has all "gelled"
over
a period of the last few years, but I guess I have nothing "ongoing"
at
the moment to show me how unschooling math "works", or how she can
get
farther along in it. With reading for example, I can see how all the
playing Starfall she was attracted to and being read to and fiddling
with alphabet letters
on the fridge and CONSTANTLY asking what things say has led to her
reading, and the same now slowly with writing and spelling, because
she "needs" them to for the things she wants to do (write on her
pictures, do a comic strip and such) My faith in her reading without
lessons developed at the same time I could see reading happening, one
feeding off the other y'know?
I know this is all because dd is "school age" now. I also have a
hard
time not fretting about the arithmetic/4 basic operations aspect of
math. Yes I know dd ps'ed peers play with blocks and rods, etc BUT
with the agenda and learning objectives the teacher expects of them
I
remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all
my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers. I guess I am thinking does playing dice for YEARS
teach you enough math to get by as an adult (the everday consumer
math,
not algebra or anything!)
Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long division"
is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" without all
those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once or
twice
lead to skill? Does it need to? I just remember all those years of
being made to practice over and over again. Again this is something
I have never
seen addressed online by my fellow unschoolers.
DD can sense any sort of "this is meant to teach you...'this'" I
think. I have so many sites bookmarked, I have so many books like
Family Math for Young Children, Games for Math by Penny Kaye sitting
on
the shelf pretty much unused because I can't balance the just doing
it
with her because it is "neat" and a fun game, with the fear that if
she
doesn't "practice" or do the "dice game" enough she won't "have her
facts down". I see so many math things like computer games,
workbooks,
etc that are thinly disguised drill, like those dollar-store-books
that
have comparing numbers of 3 types of toys and drawing a circle graph
(gr 2 curriculum in my province BTW), or adding 45+3 in picture
form.
My dd would look at something like that and thing "what the heck
for?"
Is that even relevant to a 7 yr old? LOL even a writing workbook
given
to her by my MIL turned her off, I didn't care and just let her go at
it on blank paper and she learned to write, it's like she sees
the "expectations" of workbooks and the more structured stuff loud
and
clear.
Where does introducing stuff fall into place in light of being an
unschooler? What about strewing? I know bigger numbers have come up
in our lives, do I get Cusinaire rods or something, not to do
the exercises "everyday at the same time" like my structured hs-ing
friends do but to
have as a resource around to show her place value or comparing 10 to
100 say if it came up, just to "have it there?" OR would that be too
much manipulation and expectation? I guess I am having a hard time
having "resources" around without the fears and concerns she is
not "using" it if that makes any sense.
Sorry this is so long and so jumbled as I pour this out. I am so
confused in this area. I am looking for personal stories especially
from you with older kids, and for a kick in the butt, and for
suggestion as to how to relax.
Tina, dp James, dd Stephanie (7) and ds Jonathan (4) here in Manitoba
Canada
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana_burdick
It sounds like you have a lot of information about math learning and
lots of resources for your kids, yet you are still not satisfied.
Maybe it will help to think more in depth about your own math
experience.
=========
I remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers.
==========
Others may give their opinion of the importance of computing speed,
but if you look at how you do math in your own life, you may be able
to answer your own question. Your fear of math or fear of your
daughter learning math or both seems to be clouding your own
observation of how YOU use math now, today. Do you have to have fast
computing speed in anything you do? What depth of understanding do
YOU have about borrowing? Does this knowledge or lack thereof affect
your daily life? Does your daughter's knowledge of addition facts
affect her daily life, today, at age 8?
In high school I worked at a fabric store. Something was always on
sale and invariably some little old lady would come in wanting fabric
for a quilt. She would want an eighth of a yard of the lovely blue
calico for 4.99/yd at 30% off and a quarter yard of the chintz for
3.49/yd at 25% percent off. After cutting about five different types
of fabric like this, she would remember at the last minute that she
had her frequent buyer card that would give her an extra 10% on the
whole lot. I would have to do all this calculation without a
calculator, while the customer chatted with me and three others
waited in line. I learned how to take percentages in school, but
nothing could have prepared me for doing that job, short of doing
it. I quit my job at the fabric store when I went off to college.
In college I decided to get a degree in math. I did some pretty
abstract stuff. Addition facts and my skills I had learned at the
fabric store were useless. When I got out of school and became an
engineer, I used some pretty sophisticated math which still didn't
require any addition facts, nor any facility at computing numbers
quickly. Fast computation was the computer's job, thank you very
much. When I left work to be home full time, I no longer needed the
abstract/sophisticated stuff. Much of it is long forgotten (Fancy
numerical analysis is somehow lost on that laundry. LOL ) Recently I
have been cooking a lot. I just got a cook book from Australia which
has metric measurements. I'm learning to do conversions again,
something I haven't done since high school. Throughout my life, I
have always learned and used the math I needed at the time. The
drilling preparation in school really wasn't useful for me. The
fabric store was definitely the biggest example of that.
So .that's why I suggest asking yourself how you have learned and
used math in your own life. If you can remember back when you were
your daughter's age, besides the drilling in school, what kind of
math did you use?
Oh, by the way, if you are thinking that I'm just one of those lucky
ones who just `got' math. I was put in a remedial math group in
second grade. Go figure.
-Dana
By the way, my DH grew up in Manatoba
lots of resources for your kids, yet you are still not satisfied.
Maybe it will help to think more in depth about your own math
experience.
=========
I remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers.
==========
Others may give their opinion of the importance of computing speed,
but if you look at how you do math in your own life, you may be able
to answer your own question. Your fear of math or fear of your
daughter learning math or both seems to be clouding your own
observation of how YOU use math now, today. Do you have to have fast
computing speed in anything you do? What depth of understanding do
YOU have about borrowing? Does this knowledge or lack thereof affect
your daily life? Does your daughter's knowledge of addition facts
affect her daily life, today, at age 8?
In high school I worked at a fabric store. Something was always on
sale and invariably some little old lady would come in wanting fabric
for a quilt. She would want an eighth of a yard of the lovely blue
calico for 4.99/yd at 30% off and a quarter yard of the chintz for
3.49/yd at 25% percent off. After cutting about five different types
of fabric like this, she would remember at the last minute that she
had her frequent buyer card that would give her an extra 10% on the
whole lot. I would have to do all this calculation without a
calculator, while the customer chatted with me and three others
waited in line. I learned how to take percentages in school, but
nothing could have prepared me for doing that job, short of doing
it. I quit my job at the fabric store when I went off to college.
In college I decided to get a degree in math. I did some pretty
abstract stuff. Addition facts and my skills I had learned at the
fabric store were useless. When I got out of school and became an
engineer, I used some pretty sophisticated math which still didn't
require any addition facts, nor any facility at computing numbers
quickly. Fast computation was the computer's job, thank you very
much. When I left work to be home full time, I no longer needed the
abstract/sophisticated stuff. Much of it is long forgotten (Fancy
numerical analysis is somehow lost on that laundry. LOL ) Recently I
have been cooking a lot. I just got a cook book from Australia which
has metric measurements. I'm learning to do conversions again,
something I haven't done since high school. Throughout my life, I
have always learned and used the math I needed at the time. The
drilling preparation in school really wasn't useful for me. The
fabric store was definitely the biggest example of that.
So .that's why I suggest asking yourself how you have learned and
used math in your own life. If you can remember back when you were
your daughter's age, besides the drilling in school, what kind of
math did you use?
Oh, by the way, if you are thinking that I'm just one of those lucky
ones who just `got' math. I was put in a remedial math group in
second grade. Go figure.
-Dana
By the way, my DH grew up in Manatoba
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 18, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Tina Bragdon wrote:
It leads MANY of them to avoidance, confusion, embarrassment, stress,
and fear.
Really and truly - if you live an active life, and if you don't avoid
anything that looks like math to you, the kids WILL pick it up.
But, if it worries you, then play games. You can come up with all
kinds of fun games that support learning math - introduce the games
and then follow your daughter's lead - if the games are fun, then fine
- keep playing. If he's bored, then your game isn't appropriately
challenging and if it is too hard or something she's not
developmentally ready for yet, she'll show it by not wanting to play.
There is truly no timetable that matters. Just immerse them in a world
that includes real math and they'll soak it up.
Play:
board games (Clue, Monopoly, Sorry, Chutes and Ladders), dice games,
card games, finger games, physical games, strategy games (Penne,
Blokus, Othello, Ingenious), visual games ( SET).
Go look here - I have written up a bit of stuff about games and math -
there are dice games, paper and pencil games, coins games, and more.
<http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/math/C1352236368/index.html>
Focus on having fun playing the games. You can't control the learning
anyway, you can only provide a rich and stimulating environment in
which learning will naturally flourish.
-pam
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long division"13 years of drill doesn't lead many of schooled kids to "skill."
> is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" without all
> those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once or
> twice
> lead to skill?
It leads MANY of them to avoidance, confusion, embarrassment, stress,
and fear.
Really and truly - if you live an active life, and if you don't avoid
anything that looks like math to you, the kids WILL pick it up.
But, if it worries you, then play games. You can come up with all
kinds of fun games that support learning math - introduce the games
and then follow your daughter's lead - if the games are fun, then fine
- keep playing. If he's bored, then your game isn't appropriately
challenging and if it is too hard or something she's not
developmentally ready for yet, she'll show it by not wanting to play.
There is truly no timetable that matters. Just immerse them in a world
that includes real math and they'll soak it up.
Play:
board games (Clue, Monopoly, Sorry, Chutes and Ladders), dice games,
card games, finger games, physical games, strategy games (Penne,
Blokus, Othello, Ingenious), visual games ( SET).
Go look here - I have written up a bit of stuff about games and math -
there are dice games, paper and pencil games, coins games, and more.
<http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/math/C1352236368/index.html>
Focus on having fun playing the games. You can't control the learning
anyway, you can only provide a rich and stimulating environment in
which learning will naturally flourish.
-pam
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
Tina, this really resonated with me. I am like a poster-child to show that we probably will all learn the kind of math we need or want when we find that we need or want it. That totally played out in my life. And the math I do know sure didn't come from school, just the fear of it. So I am not tempted to think that my kids need formal lessons. However, I am having trouble with strewing their path with math. Like Tina says below, my kids can smell anything meant to teach them immediately, and of course I don't even want to sneak anything by them. So if I suggest any games (like those from Pam Sorooshian's site) they refuse immediately. And I honor their right to refuse, and it just passes on. But they really never even let me show them any of it. I guess my question is....it's my perception that with this situation, the right thing to do is let it drop, figuring that if and when they need this knowlege they'll search it out. OK, that's great. As
long as I am not letting them down by failing to figure out how to gracefully strew their path. That's part of what I thought Tina was asking...how hard do you try to strew a path when they aren't looking at the path? Isn't the answer that we must let them look where THEY are looking? I hope this was clear! Thanks.... Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: Tina Bragdon <jamesandtina942@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:01:05 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] ???'s, how to develop faith about unschooling math....
Hi, I am asking these questions as I know many of you have older
children than mine and the benefit of time and experience, and also
asking them in light of "strewing" and if it is manipulative, about
teaching vs being a facilitator, and of having faith that unschooling
will be "enough" if that makes any sense.
I am having a hard time overcoming my math fears and trying to relax
about it, especially now that dd is of mandatory school age in my
province and I have to submit progress reports (no actual "evidence")
twice a year. It has just made my fears hit more close to home.
It's
not that I am trying to relax from a curriculum I have imposed (we
have
not used any), it's that I feel so confused and unsure trying to sort
out the whole math thing in my mind that I feel I haven't done near
as
much as I could in helping my kids discover the patterns,
relationships, games, etc that so many unschoolers say math is.
I am in the process of reading Math Power by Patricia Kenschaft after
hearing Pam Sooroshian talk about it on tape. It has been great in
showing me about the "language" of math, incorporating it in real
life,
etc, and doing this seems so "easy" with ds as he has recently become
very interested in counting everything, the clock, obviously DELIGHTS
in numbers/quantity and how it can change, all that sort of stuff,
and
due to reading this book I feel more able to "facilitate" an explore
this with him. It feels "natural" to point it out to him.
With dd however I feel like I missed that boat in a way as (ok, I
know
it is a schooly comparison but it is for puroposes of illustration
for
you all) she would maybe have a kindy-gr 1 level of understanding in
math, I know it is just from talking about what we see in everyday
life, cooking, reading a book, she knows "intuitively" somehow what
is
bigger, which thing is 3rd in line, etc and that has all "gelled"
over
a period of the last few years, but I guess I have nothing "ongoing"
at
the moment to show me how unschooling math "works", or how she can
get
farther along in it. With reading for example, I can see how all the
playing Starfall she was attracted to and being read to and fiddling
with alphabet letters
on the fridge and CONSTANTLY asking what things say has led to her
reading, and the same now slowly with writing and spelling, because
she "needs" them to for the things she wants to do (write on her
pictures, do a comic strip and such) My faith in her reading without
lessons developed at the same time I could see reading happening, one
feeding off the other y'know?
I know this is all because dd is "school age" now. I also have a
hard
time not fretting about the arithmetic/4 basic operations aspect of
math. Yes I know dd ps'ed peers play with blocks and rods, etc BUT
with the agenda and learning objectives the teacher expects of them
I
remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all
my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers. I guess I am thinking does playing dice for YEARS
teach you enough math to get by as an adult (the everday consumer
math,
not algebra or anything!)
Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long division"
is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" without all
those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once or
twice
lead to skill? Does it need to? I just remember all those years of
being made to practice over and over again. Again this is something
I have never
seen addressed online by my fellow unschoolers.
DD can sense any sort of "this is meant to teach you...'this' " I
think. I have so many sites bookmarked, I have so many books like
Family Math for Young Children, Games for Math by Penny Kaye sitting
on
the shelf pretty much unused because I can't balance the just doing
it
with her because it is "neat" and a fun game, with the fear that if
she
doesn't "practice" or do the "dice game" enough she won't "have her
facts down". I see so many math things like computer games,
workbooks,
etc that are thinly disguised drill, like those dollar-store- books
that
have comparing numbers of 3 types of toys and drawing a circle graph
(gr 2 curriculum in my province BTW), or adding 45+3 in picture
form.
My dd would look at something like that and thing "what the heck
for?"
Is that even relevant to a 7 yr old? LOL even a writing workbook
given
to her by my MIL turned her off, I didn't care and just let her go at
it on blank paper and she learned to write, it's like she sees
the "expectations" of workbooks and the more structured stuff loud
and
clear.
Where does introducing stuff fall into place in light of being an
unschooler? What about strewing? I know bigger numbers have come up
in our lives, do I get Cusinaire rods or something, not to do
the exercises "everyday at the same time" like my structured hs-ing
friends do but to
have as a resource around to show her place value or comparing 10 to
100 say if it came up, just to "have it there?" OR would that be too
much manipulation and expectation? I guess I am having a hard time
having "resources" around without the fears and concerns she is
not "using" it if that makes any sense.
Sorry this is so long and so jumbled as I pour this out. I am so
confused in this area. I am looking for personal stories especially
from you with older kids, and for a kick in the butt, and for
suggestion as to how to relax.
Tina, dp James, dd Stephanie (7) and ds Jonathan (4) here in Manitoba
Canada
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
long as I am not letting them down by failing to figure out how to gracefully strew their path. That's part of what I thought Tina was asking...how hard do you try to strew a path when they aren't looking at the path? Isn't the answer that we must let them look where THEY are looking? I hope this was clear! Thanks.... Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: Tina Bragdon <jamesandtina942@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:01:05 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] ???'s, how to develop faith about unschooling math....
Hi, I am asking these questions as I know many of you have older
children than mine and the benefit of time and experience, and also
asking them in light of "strewing" and if it is manipulative, about
teaching vs being a facilitator, and of having faith that unschooling
will be "enough" if that makes any sense.
I am having a hard time overcoming my math fears and trying to relax
about it, especially now that dd is of mandatory school age in my
province and I have to submit progress reports (no actual "evidence")
twice a year. It has just made my fears hit more close to home.
It's
not that I am trying to relax from a curriculum I have imposed (we
have
not used any), it's that I feel so confused and unsure trying to sort
out the whole math thing in my mind that I feel I haven't done near
as
much as I could in helping my kids discover the patterns,
relationships, games, etc that so many unschoolers say math is.
I am in the process of reading Math Power by Patricia Kenschaft after
hearing Pam Sooroshian talk about it on tape. It has been great in
showing me about the "language" of math, incorporating it in real
life,
etc, and doing this seems so "easy" with ds as he has recently become
very interested in counting everything, the clock, obviously DELIGHTS
in numbers/quantity and how it can change, all that sort of stuff,
and
due to reading this book I feel more able to "facilitate" an explore
this with him. It feels "natural" to point it out to him.
With dd however I feel like I missed that boat in a way as (ok, I
know
it is a schooly comparison but it is for puroposes of illustration
for
you all) she would maybe have a kindy-gr 1 level of understanding in
math, I know it is just from talking about what we see in everyday
life, cooking, reading a book, she knows "intuitively" somehow what
is
bigger, which thing is 3rd in line, etc and that has all "gelled"
over
a period of the last few years, but I guess I have nothing "ongoing"
at
the moment to show me how unschooling math "works", or how she can
get
farther along in it. With reading for example, I can see how all the
playing Starfall she was attracted to and being read to and fiddling
with alphabet letters
on the fridge and CONSTANTLY asking what things say has led to her
reading, and the same now slowly with writing and spelling, because
she "needs" them to for the things she wants to do (write on her
pictures, do a comic strip and such) My faith in her reading without
lessons developed at the same time I could see reading happening, one
feeding off the other y'know?
I know this is all because dd is "school age" now. I also have a
hard
time not fretting about the arithmetic/4 basic operations aspect of
math. Yes I know dd ps'ed peers play with blocks and rods, etc BUT
with the agenda and learning objectives the teacher expects of them
I
remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need to
mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have in
all
my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially with
older unschoolers. I guess I am thinking does playing dice for YEARS
teach you enough math to get by as an adult (the everday consumer
math,
not algebra or anything!)
Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long division"
is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" without all
those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once or
twice
lead to skill? Does it need to? I just remember all those years of
being made to practice over and over again. Again this is something
I have never
seen addressed online by my fellow unschoolers.
DD can sense any sort of "this is meant to teach you...'this' " I
think. I have so many sites bookmarked, I have so many books like
Family Math for Young Children, Games for Math by Penny Kaye sitting
on
the shelf pretty much unused because I can't balance the just doing
it
with her because it is "neat" and a fun game, with the fear that if
she
doesn't "practice" or do the "dice game" enough she won't "have her
facts down". I see so many math things like computer games,
workbooks,
etc that are thinly disguised drill, like those dollar-store- books
that
have comparing numbers of 3 types of toys and drawing a circle graph
(gr 2 curriculum in my province BTW), or adding 45+3 in picture
form.
My dd would look at something like that and thing "what the heck
for?"
Is that even relevant to a 7 yr old? LOL even a writing workbook
given
to her by my MIL turned her off, I didn't care and just let her go at
it on blank paper and she learned to write, it's like she sees
the "expectations" of workbooks and the more structured stuff loud
and
clear.
Where does introducing stuff fall into place in light of being an
unschooler? What about strewing? I know bigger numbers have come up
in our lives, do I get Cusinaire rods or something, not to do
the exercises "everyday at the same time" like my structured hs-ing
friends do but to
have as a resource around to show her place value or comparing 10 to
100 say if it came up, just to "have it there?" OR would that be too
much manipulation and expectation? I guess I am having a hard time
having "resources" around without the fears and concerns she is
not "using" it if that makes any sense.
Sorry this is so long and so jumbled as I pour this out. I am so
confused in this area. I am looking for personal stories especially
from you with older kids, and for a kick in the butt, and for
suggestion as to how to relax.
Tina, dp James, dd Stephanie (7) and ds Jonathan (4) here in Manitoba
Canada
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana_burdick
=======
However, I am having trouble with strewing their path with math.
=======
It might be helpful to think of strewing their path with things you
find interesting or things that you think they may find interesting,
rather than strewing `math'. When you strew, strew something that is
a little closer to your kids' existing interests/passions. If you
chose to dissect any one interest, you could probably segment it into
school subjects such as math or English, but it's rather anemic to
reduce the world to five or so categories; especially, when learning
is all about making many many connections from all that you are
surrounded by.
My son recently has been very passionate about Star Wars. Anything
and everything is Star Wars these days. We started out with the
movie marathon where we watched all six films. He then proceeded to
write a bit of an introduction for a role playing game based on Lego
Star Wars. One day I was at the music store getting some stuff for
myself. I offered to get some Star Wars music to play for him on the
piano. He decided he wanted to try playing it himself. My son had
not taken a single lesson in piano and had not shown any interest at
all until that day. If I had thought about strewing writing so he
would write he would have never produced the wonderful Star Wars
intro for his game. If I had strewn the piano and said here you
might learn some notes, he wouldn't have even glanced at the thing.
As far as he was concerned, his writing was a means to tell his
story. Learning how to play the piano was merely a means to play his
Star Wars music. Since then, he has learned other piano pieces.
Playing the piano has now become an interest in itself.
As a math example, my daughter resists any math games for math's
sake. For her, Webkinz has been the passion recently. She has
learned a lot about arithmetic via this game. She watches her money
and spends it very carefully. She has learned how to read numbers
into the thousands. She has learned how to subtract from these
larger numbers. And, this is just from my cursory observation. Who
knows what other connections that she has made. If I would have
said, `Here's a game that might help you learn math,' she would not
have been very excited. But instead I said, `Look here honey, isn't
this a cute animal? Oh, it says here on this tag that you can play
with him on the computer too. Would you like to get it?' Well duh,
who can resist that? Ok, maybe my son, but you get the point.
I am guilty of strewing writing for my son and strewing math for my
daughter. It worked to undermine our relationship every time. When
my motives behind strewing shifted from fear of them learning school
subjects to serving them and their interests, everything changed.
By the way, we are currently doing math every night after dinner. We
get out the Visual Brainstorms Cards (math puzzles not arithmetic. By
Martin Gardner) and try to solve a problem together as a family.
The kids are the ones who jump up and grab the set of cards and ask
if we can do one. They don't see it as math. They see it as time
spent together having a fun challenge. There is no way that I could
have _made_ that happen. It's a certain magic that follows strewing
when the motives are free of fear. It is also unique to our family,
our kids, their ages, and the exact circumstances. I didn't strew
the cards the first night we played with them; I was actually in the
middle of going through a bunch of junk on our bookcase. The cards
just happen to be out. I think the scary thing is that these things
seem so incidental and cannot be controlled. I like to think of this
way, like the stock market, prices may vary, but generally over the
long haul you get good return on your investment.
-Dana
However, I am having trouble with strewing their path with math.
=======
It might be helpful to think of strewing their path with things you
find interesting or things that you think they may find interesting,
rather than strewing `math'. When you strew, strew something that is
a little closer to your kids' existing interests/passions. If you
chose to dissect any one interest, you could probably segment it into
school subjects such as math or English, but it's rather anemic to
reduce the world to five or so categories; especially, when learning
is all about making many many connections from all that you are
surrounded by.
My son recently has been very passionate about Star Wars. Anything
and everything is Star Wars these days. We started out with the
movie marathon where we watched all six films. He then proceeded to
write a bit of an introduction for a role playing game based on Lego
Star Wars. One day I was at the music store getting some stuff for
myself. I offered to get some Star Wars music to play for him on the
piano. He decided he wanted to try playing it himself. My son had
not taken a single lesson in piano and had not shown any interest at
all until that day. If I had thought about strewing writing so he
would write he would have never produced the wonderful Star Wars
intro for his game. If I had strewn the piano and said here you
might learn some notes, he wouldn't have even glanced at the thing.
As far as he was concerned, his writing was a means to tell his
story. Learning how to play the piano was merely a means to play his
Star Wars music. Since then, he has learned other piano pieces.
Playing the piano has now become an interest in itself.
As a math example, my daughter resists any math games for math's
sake. For her, Webkinz has been the passion recently. She has
learned a lot about arithmetic via this game. She watches her money
and spends it very carefully. She has learned how to read numbers
into the thousands. She has learned how to subtract from these
larger numbers. And, this is just from my cursory observation. Who
knows what other connections that she has made. If I would have
said, `Here's a game that might help you learn math,' she would not
have been very excited. But instead I said, `Look here honey, isn't
this a cute animal? Oh, it says here on this tag that you can play
with him on the computer too. Would you like to get it?' Well duh,
who can resist that? Ok, maybe my son, but you get the point.
I am guilty of strewing writing for my son and strewing math for my
daughter. It worked to undermine our relationship every time. When
my motives behind strewing shifted from fear of them learning school
subjects to serving them and their interests, everything changed.
By the way, we are currently doing math every night after dinner. We
get out the Visual Brainstorms Cards (math puzzles not arithmetic. By
Martin Gardner) and try to solve a problem together as a family.
The kids are the ones who jump up and grab the set of cards and ask
if we can do one. They don't see it as math. They see it as time
spent together having a fun challenge. There is no way that I could
have _made_ that happen. It's a certain magic that follows strewing
when the motives are free of fear. It is also unique to our family,
our kids, their ages, and the exact circumstances. I didn't strew
the cards the first night we played with them; I was actually in the
middle of going through a bunch of junk on our bookcase. The cards
just happen to be out. I think the scary thing is that these things
seem so incidental and cannot be controlled. I like to think of this
way, like the stock market, prices may vary, but generally over the
long haul you get good return on your investment.
-Dana
Cameron Parham
Dana, I love it when I get the exact answer I wanted! This feels 'in synch' and right. Thank you so much! I guess that I am still new enough to need the reassurance you gave. Funny thing is, my kids are so good at knowing what they want, that the contived strewing never works. I know this. I wasn't even tempted to do it, simply because I have finally realized it never works. I guess I just needed some affirmation! Thanks so much!! Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: dana_burdick <DanaBurdick@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 10:50:16 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: ???'s, how to develop faith about unschooling math....
=======
However, I am having trouble with strewing their path with math.
=======
It might be helpful to think of strewing their path with things you
find interesting or things that you think they may find interesting,
rather than strewing `math'. When you strew, strew something that is
a little closer to your kids' existing interests/passions. If you
chose to dissect any one interest, you could probably segment it into
school subjects such as math or English, but it's rather anemic to
reduce the world to five or so categories; especially, when learning
is all about making many many connections from all that you are
surrounded by.
My son recently has been very passionate about Star Wars. Anything
and everything is Star Wars these days. We started out with the
movie marathon where we watched all six films. He then proceeded to
write a bit of an introduction for a role playing game based on Lego
Star Wars. One day I was at the music store getting some stuff for
myself. I offered to get some Star Wars music to play for him on the
piano. He decided he wanted to try playing it himself. My son had
not taken a single lesson in piano and had not shown any interest at
all until that day. If I had thought about strewing writing so he
would write he would have never produced the wonderful Star Wars
intro for his game. If I had strewn the piano and said here you
might learn some notes, he wouldn't have even glanced at the thing.
As far as he was concerned, his writing was a means to tell his
story. Learning how to play the piano was merely a means to play his
Star Wars music. Since then, he has learned other piano pieces.
Playing the piano has now become an interest in itself.
As a math example, my daughter resists any math games for math's
sake. For her, Webkinz has been the passion recently. She has
learned a lot about arithmetic via this game. She watches her money
and spends it very carefully. She has learned how to read numbers
into the thousands. She has learned how to subtract from these
larger numbers. And, this is just from my cursory observation. Who
knows what other connections that she has made. If I would have
said, `Here's a game that might help you learn math,' she would not
have been very excited. But instead I said, `Look here honey, isn't
this a cute animal? Oh, it says here on this tag that you can play
with him on the computer too. Would you like to get it?' Well duh,
who can resist that? Ok, maybe my son, but you get the point.
I am guilty of strewing writing for my son and strewing math for my
daughter. It worked to undermine our relationship every time. When
my motives behind strewing shifted from fear of them learning school
subjects to serving them and their interests, everything changed.
By the way, we are currently doing math every night after dinner. We
get out the Visual Brainstorms Cards (math puzzles not arithmetic. By
Martin Gardner) and try to solve a problem together as a family.
The kids are the ones who jump up and grab the set of cards and ask
if we can do one. They don't see it as math. They see it as time
spent together having a fun challenge. There is no way that I could
have _made_ that happen. It's a certain magic that follows strewing
when the motives are free of fear. It is also unique to our family,
our kids, their ages, and the exact circumstances. I didn't strew
the cards the first night we played with them; I was actually in the
middle of going through a bunch of junk on our bookcase. The cards
just happen to be out. I think the scary thing is that these things
seem so incidental and cannot be controlled. I like to think of this
way, like the stock market, prices may vary, but generally over the
long haul you get good return on your investment.
-Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: dana_burdick <DanaBurdick@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 10:50:16 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: ???'s, how to develop faith about unschooling math....
=======
However, I am having trouble with strewing their path with math.
=======
It might be helpful to think of strewing their path with things you
find interesting or things that you think they may find interesting,
rather than strewing `math'. When you strew, strew something that is
a little closer to your kids' existing interests/passions. If you
chose to dissect any one interest, you could probably segment it into
school subjects such as math or English, but it's rather anemic to
reduce the world to five or so categories; especially, when learning
is all about making many many connections from all that you are
surrounded by.
My son recently has been very passionate about Star Wars. Anything
and everything is Star Wars these days. We started out with the
movie marathon where we watched all six films. He then proceeded to
write a bit of an introduction for a role playing game based on Lego
Star Wars. One day I was at the music store getting some stuff for
myself. I offered to get some Star Wars music to play for him on the
piano. He decided he wanted to try playing it himself. My son had
not taken a single lesson in piano and had not shown any interest at
all until that day. If I had thought about strewing writing so he
would write he would have never produced the wonderful Star Wars
intro for his game. If I had strewn the piano and said here you
might learn some notes, he wouldn't have even glanced at the thing.
As far as he was concerned, his writing was a means to tell his
story. Learning how to play the piano was merely a means to play his
Star Wars music. Since then, he has learned other piano pieces.
Playing the piano has now become an interest in itself.
As a math example, my daughter resists any math games for math's
sake. For her, Webkinz has been the passion recently. She has
learned a lot about arithmetic via this game. She watches her money
and spends it very carefully. She has learned how to read numbers
into the thousands. She has learned how to subtract from these
larger numbers. And, this is just from my cursory observation. Who
knows what other connections that she has made. If I would have
said, `Here's a game that might help you learn math,' she would not
have been very excited. But instead I said, `Look here honey, isn't
this a cute animal? Oh, it says here on this tag that you can play
with him on the computer too. Would you like to get it?' Well duh,
who can resist that? Ok, maybe my son, but you get the point.
I am guilty of strewing writing for my son and strewing math for my
daughter. It worked to undermine our relationship every time. When
my motives behind strewing shifted from fear of them learning school
subjects to serving them and their interests, everything changed.
By the way, we are currently doing math every night after dinner. We
get out the Visual Brainstorms Cards (math puzzles not arithmetic. By
Martin Gardner) and try to solve a problem together as a family.
The kids are the ones who jump up and grab the set of cards and ask
if we can do one. They don't see it as math. They see it as time
spent together having a fun challenge. There is no way that I could
have _made_ that happen. It's a certain magic that follows strewing
when the motives are free of fear. It is also unique to our family,
our kids, their ages, and the exact circumstances. I didn't strew
the cards the first night we played with them; I was actually in the
middle of going through a bunch of junk on our bookcase. The cards
just happen to be out. I think the scary thing is that these things
seem so incidental and cannot be controlled. I like to think of this
way, like the stock market, prices may vary, but generally over the
long haul you get good return on your investment.
-Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanne
One of the issues of Unschooling Voices (the unschooling blog carnival)
was on unschooling math. Here's the link:
http://tinyurl.com/26pt6x
Scroll down...it's issue #4.
~~*~~ Joanne ~~*~~
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
was on unschooling math. Here's the link:
http://tinyurl.com/26pt6x
Scroll down...it's issue #4.
~~*~~ Joanne ~~*~~
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 18, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Michelle Thedaker wrote:
fractions, they should be cooking because they want to cook. Learning
about numbers happens as a side effect.
Think of it this way: Do kids learn English in order to learn nouns
and verbs? Or do they unconsciously pick up nouns and verbs as a side
effect of using English to get what they want. If you ask them, they
may not know what a noun is, but I'm betting they never say "Cat the
pet black."! ;-)
numbers work as they use them for what they want to do.
Unlike school where being able to demonstrate that you've memorized
how to manipulate numbers is important, in real life figuring out a
way to get to where you want to be is is what's important. By doing
that kids build an understanding of how English and numbers and the
world in general works that's constantly being reworked and refined
as their understanding grows.
Schools *hope* kids pick up understanding after tedious hours of
practice, but they can't guarantee it. It's not because schools are
mean ;-) It's because schools must demonstrate that they're
accomplishing their goals of teaching and to do that they need to
test. But testing understanding is very very difficult. Testing
memorization, on the other hand, is relatively easy. They're trapped
using methods that make real learning very difficult but allow them
to show learning happens.
In fact, it seems from all the math phobia, that what schools teach
kids best is that math is hard and boring and something to be
avoided. And by avoiding math in real life, they miss out on
opportunities to understand how numbers work.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If youAnd unschooled kids shouldn't be cooking *in order* to pick up
> daughter doesn't care about measuring cooking ingredients in order
> to pick
> up fractions and volumes and such, so what?
fractions, they should be cooking because they want to cook. Learning
about numbers happens as a side effect.
Think of it this way: Do kids learn English in order to learn nouns
and verbs? Or do they unconsciously pick up nouns and verbs as a side
effect of using English to get what they want. If you ask them, they
may not know what a noun is, but I'm betting they never say "Cat the
pet black."! ;-)
> I memorized the times tables as aExactly. Like with English kids will pick up an understanding of how
> kid (ugh!!!) but I often do not remember what a certain answer is
> for a
> multiplication question in real life.
numbers work as they use them for what they want to do.
Unlike school where being able to demonstrate that you've memorized
how to manipulate numbers is important, in real life figuring out a
way to get to where you want to be is is what's important. By doing
that kids build an understanding of how English and numbers and the
world in general works that's constantly being reworked and refined
as their understanding grows.
Schools *hope* kids pick up understanding after tedious hours of
practice, but they can't guarantee it. It's not because schools are
mean ;-) It's because schools must demonstrate that they're
accomplishing their goals of teaching and to do that they need to
test. But testing understanding is very very difficult. Testing
memorization, on the other hand, is relatively easy. They're trapped
using methods that make real learning very difficult but allow them
to show learning happens.
In fact, it seems from all the math phobia, that what schools teach
kids best is that math is hard and boring and something to be
avoided. And by avoiding math in real life, they miss out on
opportunities to understand how numbers work.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
Exactly - it's about strewing things that are interesting in and of
themselves, not strewing "subjects". Even though DS knows that "math"
exists (sometimes we'll kid as we walk through the "homeschooling"
section of the bookstore "are you SURE you don't want a math workbook?"
BWG), basically we just call it "numbers". He's stretching his numbers a
bit now because he's decided he wants to play cribbage with me and DH
so, while it's not huge numbers, it is calculating running totals and
seeing patterns on the fly. yesterday, he won a game with no assistance
from us (he used to want one of us to 'coach' him while he played the
other). Numbers are everywhere really - calculating how many more points
to level up in a game, figuring up how much money he has and how much he
needs to get something he wants, measuring, percentages (how much tax on
that thing he wants to buy, what is a 'tip' and how do you figure it
out), all sorts of things use numbers every day. Just as you can't put a
white sock in with a brand new red sweatshirt without the sock getting
at least a bit pink, so too you can't have a kid out and about in this
wide world without getting at least a little bit of numeracy (the
number/math version of literacy).
Deb
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
themselves, not strewing "subjects". Even though DS knows that "math"
exists (sometimes we'll kid as we walk through the "homeschooling"
section of the bookstore "are you SURE you don't want a math workbook?"
BWG), basically we just call it "numbers". He's stretching his numbers a
bit now because he's decided he wants to play cribbage with me and DH
so, while it's not huge numbers, it is calculating running totals and
seeing patterns on the fly. yesterday, he won a game with no assistance
from us (he used to want one of us to 'coach' him while he played the
other). Numbers are everywhere really - calculating how many more points
to level up in a game, figuring up how much money he has and how much he
needs to get something he wants, measuring, percentages (how much tax on
that thing he wants to buy, what is a 'tip' and how do you figure it
out), all sorts of things use numbers every day. Just as you can't put a
white sock in with a brand new red sweatshirt without the sock getting
at least a bit pink, so too you can't have a kid out and about in this
wide world without getting at least a little bit of numeracy (the
number/math version of literacy).
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Sirotkin
>It's because schools must demonstrate that they're.
>accomplishing their goals of teaching and to do that they need to
>test. But testing understanding is very very difficult. Testing
>memorization, on the other hand, is relatively easy. They're trapped
>using methods that make real learning very difficult but allow them
>to show learning happens.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=12789513/grpspId=1705081972/msgI
d=28941/stime=1200913296/nc1=5008812/nc2=4025338/nc3=5170415>
Thank you for that whole post, Joyce! How very true! I was a teacher for
12 years, and ultimately left the profession because I couldn't reconcile
within myself the huge gap between what my expertise (and research, and
-yes- college education) had taught me about how children learn and what the
schools did to "teach" the various subjects! And it isn't like I don't
understand the huge difficulty that is place before the teachers when they
have 30+ kids to a classroom. But I don't think that excuses doing what is
*easy* over doing what is right (I actually had an administrator scold me
for creating a curriculum that was individualized to each student-because it
was *too much work* --for ME, not the kids! Ugh!).
Anyway, this post came at a great time for my family. My husband and I are
in the process of deschooling ourselves and entering into unschooling our 3
of our children. My husband and I talk about this topic of unschooling math
often. His concern is what if Jonah (8- and the oldest who will be
unschooled) in his teens (or pre-teens-or whenever) decides on a career path
that he did not consider in his *early years* and now he is without the
basics he needs to follow that path later on. Now understand-my husband is
an engineer and knew he wanted to be an engineer pretty early on in his high
school years. I, on the other hand, have been a retail manager, a teacher,
a graphic artist, and now a massage therapist and reiki practitioner-and I
still haven't *decided* what I want to be when I grow up!!!! In most cases,
reminding him of that I have repackaged my own career(s) as the interests
strike me, and that I had no medical/science basics when I decided on this
last career-and yet here I am!-has helped him understand that life and goals
do not look a certain way.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mark V Fullerton
You might want to make a distinction between "having faith"
and "feeling confident".
I would describe confidence as arising from having evidence that you
are able to move toward or create the kind of life that you want;
having faith means to me that you have the belief that the nature of
life is such that whatever happens or comes your way, you will be
able to derive at least some good from it.
I understand the "progress reports" that you are being asked for -
while not actually requiring you to provide "evidence of progress" -
as suggestive that the authorities are actually already partly
confident that you can provide a healthy learning environment for
your children; all they are really trying to do is check
for "negative evidence", something that would raise alarms, like a
parent that refuses to communicate with authorities and isolates
their children from any contact with others. By presuming this kind
of positive intent on their part it becomes easier and more
comfortable to communicate with them; you are no longer trying to
justify yourself, but rather simply seeking to reassure them. And
since the person you will be dealing with is likely to have
relatively little experience with unschooling, they may actually be
quite fascinated by whatever experiences you would be willing to
share with them. This then could actually become an experience you
could look forward to - its an opportunity to practice expressing
what the philosophy of unschooling is to someone unfamiliar with it,
and perhaps succeed in bringing one more person into the unschooling
community. Personally I often begin with the analogy: think of a
public school classroom being improved by dramatically reducing the
class sizes, and introducing individualized instruction, while
providing much greater access to the world and time for uninterrupted
musing, pondering, and reflection. Put it that way and everyone will
find it attractive, but seemingly impossible to provide.Then point
out how similar that is to the kind of learning environment that you
are attempting to provide for your own children, together perhaps
with other homeschooling parents. They're not likely to "get"
immediately the distinction between teaching and sharing/facilitating
interests, but you don't need to bring them quite that far to feel
that you've met a possible friend rather than an adversary.
I might add that many people who are not unschooling experience the
word as rather negative and challenging or threatening - I choose to
explain it by saying that it just means the process of letting go of
harmful assumptions about education and harmful attitudes toward
children.
I very much doubt that this was your main source of anxiety and
confusion, but by addressing this one issue fully and completely I
think you may be more able to tune in to the nature of your anxiety
connected to learning and teaching arithmetic.
I might add that I once saw on Oprah three adults who had successful
careers and lives and who were now confessing that they never learned
how to read. The audience applauded them for finally confessing their
shame and for somewhat painfully submitting to the process of being
taught, and happy that they reported making progress. Somehow no one
saw fit to comment that apparently one can become perfectly
successful without knowing how to read!
If your daughter can sing like Madonna and is a good judge of people,
she can always hire someone else to manage her finances and to do any
arithmetic that might be necessary. ^_^.
- Mark V.
--- In [email protected], "Tina Bragdon"
<jamesandtina942@...> wrote:
and "feeling confident".
I would describe confidence as arising from having evidence that you
are able to move toward or create the kind of life that you want;
having faith means to me that you have the belief that the nature of
life is such that whatever happens or comes your way, you will be
able to derive at least some good from it.
I understand the "progress reports" that you are being asked for -
while not actually requiring you to provide "evidence of progress" -
as suggestive that the authorities are actually already partly
confident that you can provide a healthy learning environment for
your children; all they are really trying to do is check
for "negative evidence", something that would raise alarms, like a
parent that refuses to communicate with authorities and isolates
their children from any contact with others. By presuming this kind
of positive intent on their part it becomes easier and more
comfortable to communicate with them; you are no longer trying to
justify yourself, but rather simply seeking to reassure them. And
since the person you will be dealing with is likely to have
relatively little experience with unschooling, they may actually be
quite fascinated by whatever experiences you would be willing to
share with them. This then could actually become an experience you
could look forward to - its an opportunity to practice expressing
what the philosophy of unschooling is to someone unfamiliar with it,
and perhaps succeed in bringing one more person into the unschooling
community. Personally I often begin with the analogy: think of a
public school classroom being improved by dramatically reducing the
class sizes, and introducing individualized instruction, while
providing much greater access to the world and time for uninterrupted
musing, pondering, and reflection. Put it that way and everyone will
find it attractive, but seemingly impossible to provide.Then point
out how similar that is to the kind of learning environment that you
are attempting to provide for your own children, together perhaps
with other homeschooling parents. They're not likely to "get"
immediately the distinction between teaching and sharing/facilitating
interests, but you don't need to bring them quite that far to feel
that you've met a possible friend rather than an adversary.
I might add that many people who are not unschooling experience the
word as rather negative and challenging or threatening - I choose to
explain it by saying that it just means the process of letting go of
harmful assumptions about education and harmful attitudes toward
children.
I very much doubt that this was your main source of anxiety and
confusion, but by addressing this one issue fully and completely I
think you may be more able to tune in to the nature of your anxiety
connected to learning and teaching arithmetic.
I might add that I once saw on Oprah three adults who had successful
careers and lives and who were now confessing that they never learned
how to read. The audience applauded them for finally confessing their
shame and for somewhat painfully submitting to the process of being
taught, and happy that they reported making progress. Somehow no one
saw fit to comment that apparently one can become perfectly
successful without knowing how to read!
If your daughter can sing like Madonna and is a good judge of people,
she can always hire someone else to manage her finances and to do any
arithmetic that might be necessary. ^_^.
- Mark V.
--- In [email protected], "Tina Bragdon"
<jamesandtina942@...> wrote:
>unschooling
> Hi, I am asking these questions as I know many of you have older
> children than mine and the benefit of time and experience, and also
> asking them in light of "strewing" and if it is manipulative, about
> teaching vs being a facilitator, and of having faith that
> will be "enough" if that makes any sense.relax
>
> I am having a hard time overcoming my math fears and trying to
> about it, especially now that dd is of mandatory school age in myactual "evidence")
> province and I have to submit progress reports (no
> twice a year. It has just made my fears hit more close to home.sort
> It's
> not that I am trying to relax from a curriculum I have imposed (we
> have
> not used any), it's that I feel so confused and unsure trying to
> out the whole math thing in my mind that I feel I haven't done nearafter
> as
> much as I could in helping my kids discover the patterns,
> relationships, games, etc that so many unschoolers say math is.
>
> I am in the process of reading Math Power by Patricia Kenschaft
> hearing Pam Sooroshian talk about it on tape. It has been great inbecome
> showing me about the "language" of math, incorporating it in real
> life,
> etc, and doing this seems so "easy" with ds as he has recently
> very interested in counting everything, the clock, obviouslyDELIGHTS
> in numbers/quantity and how it can change, all that sort of stuff,explore
> and
> due to reading this book I feel more able to "facilitate" an
> this with him. It feels "natural" to point it out to him.in
>
> With dd however I feel like I missed that boat in a way as (ok, I
> know
> it is a schooly comparison but it is for puroposes of illustration
> for
> you all) she would maybe have a kindy-gr 1 level of understanding
> math, I know it is just from talking about what we see in everydaynothing "ongoing"
> life, cooking, reading a book, she knows "intuitively" somehow what
> is
> bigger, which thing is 3rd in line, etc and that has all "gelled"
> over
> a period of the last few years, but I guess I have
> atthe
> the moment to show me how unschooling math "works", or how she can
> get
> farther along in it. With reading for example, I can see how all
> playing Starfall she was attracted to and being read to andfiddling
> with alphabet letterswithout
> on the fridge and CONSTANTLY asking what things say has led to her
> reading, and the same now slowly with writing and spelling, because
> she "needs" them to for the things she wants to do (write on her
> pictures, do a comic strip and such) My faith in her reading
> lessons developed at the same time I could see reading happening,one
> feeding off the other y'know?them
>
>
> I know this is all because dd is "school age" now. I also have a
> hard
> time not fretting about the arithmetic/4 basic operations aspect of
> math. Yes I know dd ps'ed peers play with blocks and rods, etc BUT
> with the agenda and learning objectives the teacher expects of
> Ito
> remember drill and being expected to memorize and crying becuse I
> could not understand the "why" of borrowing! Does a gr 2'er need
> mememorize addition facts or just understand what it is? I have inwith
> all
> my reading online about unschooling math rarely seen the whole
> competency and speed at "computing" issue addressed, especially
> older unschoolers. I guess I am thinking does playing dice forYEARS
> teach you enough math to get by as an adult (the everday consumerdivision"
> math,
> not algebra or anything!)
>
> Yes, you hear stories of unschoolers being shown what "long
> is at 13 because it just "came up" and then they "get it" withoutall
> those years of school math drill, but does being shown it once orsomething
> twice
> lead to skill? Does it need to? I just remember all those years of
> being made to practice over and over again. Again this is
> I have neversitting
> seen addressed online by my fellow unschoolers.
>
> DD can sense any sort of "this is meant to teach you...'this'" I
> think. I have so many sites bookmarked, I have so many books like
> Family Math for Young Children, Games for Math by Penny Kaye
> ongraph
> the shelf pretty much unused because I can't balance the just doing
> it
> with her because it is "neat" and a fun game, with the fear that if
> she
> doesn't "practice" or do the "dice game" enough she won't "have her
> facts down". I see so many math things like computer games,
> workbooks,
> etc that are thinly disguised drill, like those dollar-store-books
> that
> have comparing numbers of 3 types of toys and drawing a circle
> (gr 2 curriculum in my province BTW), or adding 45+3 in pictureat
> form.
> My dd would look at something like that and thing "what the heck
> for?"
> Is that even relevant to a 7 yr old? LOL even a writing workbook
> given
> to her by my MIL turned her off, I didn't care and just let her go
> it on blank paper and she learned to write, it's like she seesup
> the "expectations" of workbooks and the more structured stuff loud
> and
> clear.
>
> Where does introducing stuff fall into place in light of being an
> unschooler? What about strewing? I know bigger numbers have come
> in our lives, do I get Cusinaire rods or something, not to doto
> the exercises "everyday at the same time" like my structured hs-ing
> friends do but to
> have as a resource around to show her place value or comparing 10
> 100 say if it came up, just to "have it there?" OR would that betoo
> much manipulation and expectation? I guess I am having a hard timeespecially
> having "resources" around without the fears and concerns she is
> not "using" it if that makes any sense.
>
> Sorry this is so long and so jumbled as I pour this out. I am so
> confused in this area. I am looking for personal stories
> from you with older kids, and for a kick in the butt, and forManitoba
> suggestion as to how to relax.
>
> Tina, dp James, dd Stephanie (7) and ds Jonathan (4) here in
> Canada
>