jennefer harper

>>So, I guess my questions are...
>>Is 14 months old enough to self-regulate?

If you mean by 'self-regulate' sleep when tired, awake
when not tired enough to fall asleep, then I say
children are born with the ability.

>>If you have experience with this, how did it work
for you?

I never have/never will give my children "bed times".
They fall asleep when and where they want to. I can
tell when my children are tired and ready to fall
asleep. If they don't just pass out on the spot, I
help them fall asleep by 'nursing them down'. Do you
still nurse your 14 month old?

>>My main concern is that she will be overtired and
>>not function well
>>during the day.

I think this happens to us all when we don't get
enough sleep. But, it's not the end of the world.
Naps help. They may also fall asleep earlier the next
day.

>>I don't want to "force her to sleep"

Then don't. Do you want to be forced to sleep?

>>She, even now, has the ability to play quietly or
>>look at books or
>>move around when in her room.

I assume she sleeps in her room, and you sleep
separately in yours? Have you tried letting her play
in your room and do the things above in your room
while you are sleeping? Perhaps you can close the
door and child proof the knob so she can't get out if
there are safety issues. Then she can fall asleep
when *she* is ready to; not necessarily when *you* are
ready for her to.

>>She sleeps on a mattress on the floor.

Have you tried sleeping with her?

>>If we close the door, she screams and screams until
>>we either bring
>>her out to be with us or falls asleep eventually. I
>>do not want to
>>continue this way.

This sounds scarey. What message is this sending her?
Abandonment. No one cares about her feelings.
Helplessness. All the reasons I hate Ferber. I am
glad you want to try something different.

-Jennefer





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Kiersten Pasciak

Jennefer,

She gave up nursing about a month ago on her own.
She just got more and more squirmy and seemed like she would rather
get down and play. Started being unable to nurse with anyone else
around first, then just stopped wanting to at all.
So, unfortunately, no nursing as comfort :(
(That did work with my son)

The overtired part is very hard because both of my kids are so
little. Her feelings spill over onto Jacob and he gets all worked up
too.

Hopefully, part of the puzzle is getting clearer today.
I wasn't really sure why it was bothering me all of a sudden.
I didn't know if she was being more difficult or I was just getting
more run down.
The books and posts were definitely making me think a lot about her
needs and what she might be wanting.
Tonight, she was really congested at bedtime and she had some GI
issues earlier this week.
I think maybe she has a little bit of a bug and is really
uncomfortable (on top of teething)
She was fussy at bedtime in the past and was having trouble going
down, but nothing like this.
Hopefully, I can bear with her and things will get better soon.

She is up again (it is midnight here) so I need to go.
Thank you for the ideas and support


Kiersten

Syndi

Hi Kiersten !
I've just now found some time this week to read thru the post. I
was wondering if Emma got to bed alittle easier after her 30 min nap
the other day? My boys are 6 and 11 now, but I have raised another
one also, and I can certainly remember those times being up at night
and feeling like I'm never going to get caught up on sleep again!
Now, I'M the one taking naps, ALL the time!
Though my kids didn't go thru quite what your daughter is, I have a
friend who's daughter never slept from her 1st day home! Ok, she had
to sleep sometime, but I had never seen anything like it before.
Anyway, her 13 year old was and still is extremely bright. I
could rattle on at what she was doing at what age, but that really
isn't important. But what I do want to say is if your reading John
Holts books, remember, he says children learn by playing. I have a
feeling Emma is so thrilled with the world around her she is afraid
she is going to miss something by sleeping!
This won't last forever and before you know it, she'll be going
thru some other stage! I do hope she's feeling better today!
Syndi----ps....I hope i got her name right!

Kiersten Pasciak

Hi Syndi,

Yes, her name is Emma :)
Well, actually she didn't go to bed till 4:45 in the morning!
That night was really hard.
But, I DO think it was because she has a cold.
She and Jacob are both faucets of snot today.
I bet that is why I started feeling so overwhelmed!

I have been trying to make the bedtime experience an even more
peaceful, happy time.
I rearranged her room, to give her the option of sleeping on the
toddler bed or on the bed on the floor. I also have found that if I
leave the door wide open and pretty much "shut down" all the
stimulus in the rest of the house, she will eventually come and lay
with me. It is almost like she is happy to know she has the option
to leave at any time so she is content to stay.
(Before I was shutting her in with me during the attempts for sleep
and only opening the door when I thought she was ready to sleep)

I think she is probably very similar to the child you describe.
It is all "learning time"
She has hit every milestone early, crawling at 5 months, walking at
9, etc.
We have always joked that it was because she spent so many more
hours a day practicing, LOL
Guess I should be happy she is so interested in everything around
her.
Hopefully, it will make unschooling that much easier.
Wouldn't want to lose that spark :)

Thanks for the reminder that all will get better.
I feel very positive about everything today, like it is all back in
perspective!
I do think that the more I quit trying to control things (and/or
people), the calmer I feel which makes the world better for all.

Kiersten






--- In [email protected], "Syndi"
<justlikemama@y...> wrote:
> Hi Kiersten !
> I've just now found some time this week to read thru the post. I
> was wondering if Emma got to bed alittle easier after her 30 min
nap
> the other day? My boys are 6 and 11 now, but I have raised
another
> one also, and I can certainly remember those times being up at
night
> and feeling like I'm never going to get caught up on sleep again!
> Now, I'M the one taking naps, ALL the time!
> Though my kids didn't go thru quite what your daughter is, I
have a
> friend who's daughter never slept from her 1st day home! Ok, she
had
> to sleep sometime, but I had never seen anything like it before.
> Anyway, her 13 year old was and still is extremely bright. I
> could rattle on at what she was doing at what age, but that really
> isn't important. But what I do want to say is if your reading John
> Holts books, remember, he says children learn by playing. I have
a
> feeling Emma is so thrilled with the world around her she is
afraid
> she is going to miss something by sleeping!
> This won't last forever and before you know it, she'll be going
> thru some other stage! I do hope she's feeling better today!
> Syndi----ps....I hope i got her name right!

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

Hi all,

I've always had a negative visceral reaction to toy guns (or cannons, or
other imlements of destruction) and I guess I was kind of hoping my kids
might not really be attacted to them, like EVER. But being on this list and
especially the discussions we've had about values and kids choices helped
prepare me for today! I went with my sister and all our kids to a nearby
playpark that has a gift shop on the way out. I was nursing my tired son
outside the gift shop while my sister was in there with her kids and my
daughter (5.9). I knew my dd was picking out a toy and offered one to my
son also. When we got inside, my sister was heading for the exit ... I
asked my dd, who was a ways away, if she had something she wanted and she
waved something at me I couldn't see, saying "Aunt Marie already got it for
me!" My sister was tired and had a toddler diving out of her stroller so
she said "Meet you at the van..." and headed for the door with her kids and
my dd.

After getting my son's toy we got to the car and turns out my daughter had
picked out this Western play kit that had two guns in it - a rifle and an
old fashioned western gun. I was less than thrilled and sort of wished I
had the opportunity to have talked to her a bit before we bought it....YES,
if she insisted on it I would have bought it, but I would have likely
mentioned that toy guns remind me of real guns which I find upsetting, and
as it turns out after I mildly mentioned this in my sister's van, turns out
it was the handcuffs that attracted her in the first place - possibly we
could have just found those without the guns. But she said "Well, mom,
these are PRETENDIE...They can't hurt anyone." She's right. In any event,
she had the guns and I knew that it was going to be interesting figuring out
how to honor my own feelings about them and express those while allowing her
to do what she needed to and wanted to do with them. But I did feel better
just asking her questions and listening to her talk about them in the van,
how she could play police officer and bandit (there was a mask) with them at
the same time. She was really excited by the possibilities of play, and it
wasn't about hurting. I calmed down.

She played with them in the car - mostly figuring out how they worked - then
we got back to my sister's house where we played for a while before coming
home. Dd was playing with the rifle and my brother in law came in the room.
She was showing it off to him and pointed it at him and pulled the trigger.
He seemed unbothered by it, but my sister all of a sudden came out with "You
shouldn't point that at someone and shoot. You should learn about gun
safety because if that was a real gun you shouldn't ever do that..." and
then she left the room. Aline came over to me, very upset, and said "I
don't understand Aunt Marie's rule ... these are pretend guns, they don't
hurt anyone..." I said "Yes, they are pretend. Let me go talk to Aunt
Marie and find out what's up.." I talked to my sister about her comments,
pointed out these guns were pretend and Aline knew that, pointed out that a
major way to play with them was in fact to point and pretend to shoot them,
pointed out that there are plenty of times we're glad police officers have
them, and asked if what she was trying to do was possibly express that she
personally is uncomfortable with Aline playing with them. She said yes,
that was what she was trying to say (which of course makes me wonder a lot
about her purchasing them for Aline without talking to me first if she felt
that uncomfortable...)

Dd, Aline, seems to have gotten over my sister's comment - in the car on the
way home I told her I talked to her aunt and found out what she really
meant, but dd said "No, I don't want to hear it" so I respected that.
Actually after watching all the joy go out of dd's face at my sister's
comments, I am pretty determined to not superimpose my own discomfort on her
joy and to try to see what she is doing through her eyes instead of mine
before I speak. It seems to me now that it's really not about the gun, but
about what she perceives she's doing with it that actually has an impact on
how I feel. I am wondering though how to deal with the comments of others,
such as my sister, since we do know at least one family who has strong
feelings about guns. I want to preserve my daughter's joy at playing with
them but also honor the feelings they evoke in others (and I can relate to
that since I have many of them).

Any ideas? Anybody been through anything similar with their kids?

I'll be on vacation this week but reading replies in digest form when I get
back on Friday...Thanks!

Joan

************************
"I would rather live in a world where my life is surrounded by mystery than
live in a world so small that my mind could comprehend it." ... Harry
Emerson Fosdick

Robyn Coburn

<<<Actually after watching all the joy go out of dd's face at my sister's
comments, I am pretty determined to not superimpose my own discomfort on her
joy and to try to see what she is doing through her eyes instead of mine
before I speak. >>>

This is a terrific expression of a huge concept that could apply, not just
toy guns, but all kinds of areas where we as adults have a value judgment
that may be different from the child's. Recently somewhere (was it here?)
there was a thread about (schooled) teens appearing unmotivated, and one of
the reasons suggested was that they may be keeping their passions secret
from their parents because of the interests being judged and invalidated as
trivial or less worthy (ie not educational or vocational) over the course of
their childhood.

It can be hard to remain open minded when it is a toy gun, because there is
a pervasive belief in the wider community that playing with guns equates to
a child becoming a violent person - not unlike playing violent video games.
This is a theory that is not borne out by the experiences related by long
term Unschoolers.

One of the wonderful moments from the Conference last year was when I was
chatting with a mother in the hall (sorry I don't remember who) when she
spotted her dd passing by. She called out to her and politely but excitedly
asked if she would mind letting her brother know that some other kids (pre
and early teen) were nearby playing some pretend game with long sticks (made
from pvc pipe) and he would be interested in joining it.

This struck me most forcibly as being the exact opposite of how many parents
would react to the whole idea of that kind of game, including assuming the
children would be careless and dangerous, as well as spiritually/emotionally
harmed by the fighting fantasy. They would want it stopped at once.

I have faith that the kids were responsible, careful and experienced. I am
totally sure that if there was a kid in the game who seemed to be lacking
self-control and dangerous to others, there would be a halt called and they
would seek the help of a familiar adult if the problem could not be
resolved. I can only assume that the other mother had equal faith.

On a related note, the kids were playing absolutely openly and publicly in
the funshop room (more like a ballroom sized chamber). There was no secrecy
or hiding. There was acceptance and encouragement.

<<<It seems to me now that it's really not about the gun, but
about what she perceives she's doing with it that actually has an impact on
how I feel. I am wondering though how to deal with the comments of others,
such as my sister, since we do know at least one family who has strong
feelings about guns. I want to preserve my daughter's joy at playing with
them but also honor the feelings they evoke in others (and I can relate to
that since I have many of them).>>>

My first thought is to not take the gun to that other family's home. On
other occasions, especially in your (her) home, it is more important to
honor your daughter's feelings than the possible feelings of other people,
none of whom you can control. You can continue to observe your dd and take
comfort in her evident grasp of the difference between fantasy play and
reality.

Perhaps, another thing is to give her time for the newness of this toy to
wear off before necessarily having a play date with that particular family,
so that suggesting different games may be less of a privation for her.

This issue has come up on occasion on my local group list in relation to
Park Days. Rarely, a family is anti-gun on broad principle; others subscribe
to the bad-toys-breed-psychos theory (see above); others are concerned about
immediate safety - the kids getting too excited and there being accidents in
"violent" play. These are some of the reasons our group tends to look for
good sized parks to allow the kids to separate into different groups for
different games.

It is sometimes harder for people to deal with very realistic looking guns,
rather than colorful "ray guns" or something other weapon like faux swords.
On occasion people have been concerned that other park users will get "the
wrong impression" about our kids, especially during war-time. It is possible
to get tied into knots of non-logic worrying about pretty unlikely scenarios
and the opinions of unconnected strangers.

One of the responses has been to reassure everyone that although there have
been the odd accidents at park days, none have been related to fantasy
weapons role playing. Another has been to talk about the kids' needs to
process some of their fears and feelings about the war news, or societal
violence in general, to feel powerful in a safe environment with the surety
of their parents available to step in if it all got too much at any time.

These are ideas that have been expressed by some of the parents of mostly
boys in our group who continue to engage in gun or weapons games. Jayn has
to date shown no interest in these games at the park. She does enjoy playing
"On guard" with us at home with her swords and shields - lots of collapsing
"dead" cured with the following incantation, "magic, magic back alive!"

Gun playing doesn't bother me. A child getting upset enough to use any toy
or object as an actual weapon, as against a fantasy weapon, is much more
worrying. Sand is more dangerous at the park than one kid's habitual bow and
suction cup arrows have ever been.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Alison Broadbent

Now I'm wondering about my reaction to my ds's gun play. He has a few small
guns. I too have felt uncomfortable w/ guns but bc of his desire to play w/
them and reading about the wrangling of others on unschooling lists, I've
shifted my thinking. But, I have asked my ds not to point it at anybody. T
date he hadn't payed guns w. any of his friends. Only on his own when at
home. He has a gun that shoots little plastic pellets and if anything were
to get in there, it could shoot it out. It also has seemed to me logical
in that if he ever was in a situation where he found a gun, it would be
ingrained in him not to point it. Maybe I'm selling him short here thinking
he possibly wouldn't know the danger. I don't know. I do know though that
I'm comfortable in asking him not to point it at me. I do think it's fine
to share what makes me uncomfortable even if I get to a point where I think
pointing it at someone else is fine.

More thinking to do on this one. Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this.

Alison

Syndi

Hi Joan,
I'll might not have any answers here but will share my story with
kids and guns.
My oldest DS (who would be 22 now) was NEVER allowed to play with
pretend guns! I was very young when I had him and just sorta
followed the crowd in the family in not letting kids have them. By
the time he was 13 he owned his 1st BB gun, and after that a (Bb?)
pistol (not a real pistol but shot bb's i think or pellets).
So when my 2nd ds came along I TRIED to keep him from the toy guns
also. But by now we were in a new family with different ideas. All
his cousins had their guns and mine didn't , so what did he do? He
grabbed anything that looked like a gun and used it! Needless to say
i've given up the fight on "gun (toy) control at home"!
So these guns of ours do get taken with us sometimes everywhere we
go. Parks, stores, and such. And i've basically discussed with my
boys (6 and 11) that there are some people that do not care for guns
of any kind, and out of respect for them that we should not take our
guns into the stores or to the parks. Reminding them that if it were
the other way around, we would hope that people would respect our
wish's. Well, so far so good. They've never been upset at not
taking them any place we knew others wouldn't appriciate them. But
then there were the times we didn't think anyone else would
be "packin" and sure enough they were!
well, thats how its been for us
syndi