Kiersten Pasciak

Hi,
I am new to this board and have been reading the posts to learn more
about unschooling as well as reading lots of books from the library.
The ideas expressed sound very logical to me, but are challenging a
great deal of what I believed up until now. (In a good way...I truly
feel that children should be treated with dignity and respect and
allowed to make their own choices)

The major issue I am having trouble with is sleep self-regulation.

I am a SAHM to a 14 month old DD (Emma) and a 2 3/4 year old DS
(Jacob). When Jacob was about 10 months old, we followed
the "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" method to get him to sleep
when WE felt he was tired. This is a modified cry-it-out method
which focuses on paying close attention to when the child is getting
drowsy, following a short routine, and putting him to bed before he
gets overtired and upset. With Jacob, he cried 5 minutes or less and
then slept soundly through the night, waking up happy and energetic.
The arguments in the book focused on your child NEEDING enough sleep
to learn effectively and thrive. We bought into it and were
satisfied that although we were not entirely comfortable with the
crying part of the method, it seemed to work. Jacob has been very in
tune with our bedtime routine for years now, and happily goes to
sleep after we read and tuck him in.

Skip to our second child, Emma.
Emma has almost never been willing to wind down in any manner, no
matter how we have tried to time it nor how consistent we have been
with our bedtime routine. She is not comforted by being held or
rocked or sung to. She just squirms to get down and play. She will
sit and read books with us, but will continue to hand us one after
another after another, never being content to stop. When we do
finally stop, she screams as though she is being physically hurt.
She is 14 months now and it is turning into a power struggle for us.

I have been reading about respecting your children's feelings about
when they are hungry and when they are tired and am finally starting
to believe that we have deeply underestimated her. However, I have
concerns about how to practically make this work with a child so
young. I trust our kids to be anywhere in our house while we are
awake, but would be concerned to allow one of them to be up after my
husband and I go to bed. I am unsure how to balance our individual
needs for sleep and time alone together and time off with our
daughter's seeming need to be awake and explore.

So, I guess my questions are...
Is 14 months old enough to self-regulate?
If you have experience with this, how did it work for you?
My main concern is that she will be overtired and not function well
during the day.
I don't want to "force her to sleep"
She, even now, has the ability to play quietly or look at books or
move around when in her room. She sleeps on a mattress on the floor.
If we close the door, she screams and screams until we either bring
her out to be with us or falls asleep eventually. I do not want to
continue this way.

Please don't beat me up for letting her cry. I have been unable to
figure out a gentle way to get her to relax and sleep. I am looking
for some help.

Any suggestions or experiences you can offer would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,
Kiersten

Ren Allen

"Please don't beat me up for letting her cry. I have been unable to
figure out a gentle way to get her to relax and sleep. I am looking
for some help."

Well, I haven't been known to ever beat anyone up...but I might
question you.:)
Apparently you know in your heart there is a better way, I sense
that. Crying it out is a bad idea in my opinion. It's rare that I
let a child cry, the exception is when they're trying to hit me,
even then I try to offer comfort at a safe distance and ask them
when they're ready to be held.
Anyhoo...that's not your question.
I think your little Emma has a very different sleep schedule of her
own, most people's bio-rhythms are going to be different, even in
the same house. The challenge is for you to try and adapt YOUR sleep
needs to hers. I feel like it's our job when children are very small
and need an adult to be with them while they're awake for safety
reasons. It's not easy, but who said raising children would be easy,
right?:)
I've found myself up much later than I would have liked many nights,
because Jalen is very much like your Emma. He needed to be up later,
he needed to wake up and nurse frequently (he's just starting to
slow that down a bit at 3.5 years old) and is generally a high needs
person. It's exhausting sometimes. There are days I fervently wish
he were older, then I look at that sweet, chubby toddler face and
undo that wish very quickly....small children are oh-so-sweet.
My advice is to be with her, wait until she really IS ready to lay
down, and then snuggle up for nighttime sleeping. You may even have
to wait until she's falling asleep wherever she is, and cover her up
or move her.
I think adults should try their best to work their own sleep needs
around their childrens when they are so young...later on, you can
say "No, I'm too tired to stay up and play another game" and they'll
understand. Babies and toddlers just need someone to be with them.

Another thing I am wondering, is do you sleep with her? Children
sleep much better next to a human body, it's how we're programmed.

Ren

Millie Rosa

Kiersten,
I agree w what Ren said, and I'll add my two cents:

Please don't make your baby stay alone and scream at "bedtime!" I understand that you need time for yourself and your dh, but you are each adults and are better able to understand the situation and put your childs fundamental needs ahead of yours. If you are not going to bed, and your dd doesn't want to, then let her stay up. If you are going to bed yourself, invite dd to come w you, and I bet your sweet little thing will curl up next to her mama and doze right off.
I don't want to "beat you up" but I want to express how badly I feel for little babies forced to wail alone in a room, unable to gain consolation or help. She hasn't done anything wrong...probably knows mama can hear her screaming...but why doesn't mama help? This has got to be so traumatic to a child and I can't imagine it makes any sense to them at all. A Mama's job is to respond to her children, give them so much love and make them feel so safe, that they will still see the value of living in a less than perfect world...it is not the mama's job to teach children that the world can be cruel and lonely!
I also want to say that it takes extra time and can be frustrating, but it is so worth it to lie with or rock your child until she succumbs to sleep. I am sorry you don't have the tool of nursing her to sleep, but maybe you could find a nice substitute...massage is my best idea. If you want to try to work w a "bedtime routine," I would suggest making it the best part of her day, with as many books as she wants and conversation and love and connection w her mama who helps her to sleep. BTW, I don't think there is any possible way you could "force her to sleep." You can lock her in her room to scream, but I implore you to please don't! Make the investment in your child's happiness and well being and spend the extra time and wait with her until she is asleep. If she doesn't nod off, then get back up w her for a while.
I am glad you are here and are committed to helping your child and that you have decided that giving her the cold shoulder at bedtime isn't right. It IS hard and frustrating sometimes to help them to sleep, but so much better for us to endure this frustration as part of the job than to force our children to feel unloved and alone as they transition to sleep. I will stop now.
Good luck in your new way of parenting to sleep!
Millie

[email protected] wrote:

There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: any ideas a little ot
From: Millie Rosa
2. Re: Digest Number 155
From: michele-nappi@...
3. Re: Digest Number 155
From: "Crystal"
4. Valerie....Re: any ideas...a little OT
From: "Valerie"
5. word play
From: "Ren"
6. Re: Digest Number 155
From: "Valerie"
7. Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
From: "mamaaj2000"
8. Re: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
From: Tuckervill@...
9. about fishing
From: "Ulrike Haupt"
10. Re: attitudes - response to Karen
From: "Ulrike Haupt"
11. Re: unschooling dogs
From: kbcdlovejo@...
12. Re: ADD (was about fishing)
From: Vijay Berry Owens
13. Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
From: "Valerie"
14. illness
From: "Valerie"
15. Re: illness
From: Tuckervill@...
16. Re: Re: Matthew Harre: What I learned...
From: blessed54321@...
17. "testers of knowledge"
From: "Valerie"
18. Re: "testers of knowledge"
From: Michelle
19. Sleep self-regulation at young ages (LONG)
From: "Kiersten Pasciak"
20. Re: "testers of knowledge"
From: "Valerie"
21. Re: "testers of knowledge"
From: blessed54321@...
22. Sleep self-regulation at young ages (LONG)
From: "Ren Allen"
23. Valerie's coming! Was: testers of knowledge
From: "Ren Allen"
24. Feeling left behind
From: "Syndi"


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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:01:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Millie Rosa
Subject: Re: any ideas a little ot

Rebecca,
I was in bed for practically my whole pg w Will, and I read about a novel a day during that time (though I probably haven't read 3 in the 2.5 years since his birth), and I can reccommend many good reads. Some favorites: A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, by Betty Smith, which has a silly nursing story, but I loved this book and also Joy in the Morning by the same author; Vanity Fair, by Sinclair Lewis, Delta Wedding, by Eudora Welty, The Cider House Rules and The World According to Garp, by John Irving, She's Come Undone, by Wally Lamb, The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe, as well as ALL of his novels were excellent...The Bonfire of the Vanities, can't seem to remember the title of the one I liked best. Also, if you haven't read Tom Robbins, he is awesome; check out Still Life With Woodpecker and Skinny Legs and All.
And then there was Steinbeck; I think I read everything he wrote and I thoroughly enjoyed them all...read Grapes of Wrath, Pastures of Heaven, oooh there are SO MANY excellent books by John Steinbeck. OH YEAH and I also recommend Prodigal Summer by Barbara Kingsolver. That's a lot of great reads...hth!


===

---------------------------------
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:06:32 -0400
From: michele-nappi@...
Subject: Re: Digest Number 155

Valerie
I don't think Jon has a passion just yet. He likes to fish. He hangs out
with older boys who have a car, boat, etc. and can go places. He goes
fishing with my husband, too. He seems to have listened well to people
telling him he is not smart and knows nothing. He has a hard time tryng
anything because he predetermines his failure at it, so why bother
trying.
We gently encourage him to try something he may like. We encourage him
to take one small step. I do agree that he is in angst. We talk about
that. He is seeking to fit in to "make it all better." The only trouble
with that is that change comes from the inside. That is the tricky part.
Sometimes it seems like he gets stuck in the blame game. It seems he is
stuck taking it out on me because he trusts me and I am handy. Then he
will apologize afterwards. It still feels bad to me. I want with all my
heart to see him succeed. I will stick by him and keep encouraging him.
Eventually he will find a passion. I didn't find one until my 30's.
Michele



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:22:01 -0000
From: "Crystal"
Subject: Re: Digest Number 155

Michelle,

Why don't you think that fishing is a passion? If that is what he
likes to do, couldn't you go fishing with him one day, let him teach
you about what it is he does, maybe take him fishing somewhere he
hasn't been. You could even invite one of his friends to come if he
doesn't trust your motive. Even if you don't see the value in
fishing, and even if he's only doing it as an escape, it may help
your relationship.

Crystal



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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:09:16 -0000
From: "Valerie"
Subject: Valerie....Re: any ideas...a little OT

--- In [email protected], "Wendy E"
wrote:
> Can your book generally be found in public libraries?
>

***** It's in some libraries and I recently sent out a mailing to
almost 4000 libraries. Whew! Hopefully more orders will come in
soon. If you ask for it at your local library, it can't hurt. :-)

Thank you
love, Valerie
www.ubpub.com



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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:23:05 GMT
From: "Ren"
Subject: word play


"A few minutes later, I'm sitting uncomfortably on my couch with Mom
and look down and one of the words is stuck to the top of my foot.
Fancy footwork at its finest! "

Oh geez!! Now THAT'S the truly funny part. What a great story..

Ren


Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/



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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:26:23 -0000
From: "Valerie"
Subject: Re: Digest Number 155

--- In [email protected], michele-nappi@w... wrote:
> Valerie
> I don't think Jon has a passion just yet. He likes to fish. He
hangs out with older boys who have a car, boat, etc. and can go
places. He goes fishing with my husband, too.

Sounds like fishing is a passion to him. My suggestions would be,
ask him if he would teach you how to fish, take him to fishing
rodeos (we have them here), get online with him and find fishing
books at Amazon or half.com. In other words, let him know that you
take his fishing passion seriously and that you're willing to do
whatever it takes to help him pursue the fishing.

Maybe fishing will become a lifestyle for him, maybe fishing is his
escape, maybe he just loves the quietness of fishing ( LOTS of
thinking goes on when a person is fishing), maybe he'll someday
create a television show around his fishing technique or maybe he'll
immerse himself totally into fishing and it'll lead to something
else. No way to know just yet.

Would you learn how to handle the boat so that the two of you could
go off together and fish? What an incredibly spiritual adventure
that could be. Mom and Jon fishing quietly on the water. Sounds
heavenly to me.

What about hosting a fishing party for Jon and one or two of his
friends? My dad took me and 5 other teenage girls crabbing from his
boat one time. It's one of my fondest childhood memories. And he
really shone with patience. Imagine SIX teen girls in a boat in the
middle of the water!

And there are so many ways to fish, so many different types of fish
to catch. Fishing from the boat, the shore, deepsea fishing, etc. My
dad has a million passions, but fishing is number one with him.

Instead of looking for things that you might feel he SHOULD have a
passion about, go with the one he already has. Fishing is an art and
if more teen boys could sit still long enough to fish, they'd
probably be a lot more content. It's a physical and cerebral
activity.

love, Valerie
www.ubpub.com



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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:47:23 -0000
From: "mamaaj2000"
Subject: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me

--- In [email protected], "Valerie"
wrote:
> I was working on a speech about Learning vs Teaching that I'm
giving
> at the Sacramento conference this coming weekend. I paused to
> continue "the education of Maelu," my nine month old dog.

Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs! Yes,
it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people I
know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule, which
is so, ya know, un-AP!

I know dogs are different than humans, though. We will get a dog
someday and I've never liked the idea of animals in cages. Heck, we
had birds (and my mom still does) that were rarely in their cages and
did NOT have their wings clipped...

--aj, happily avoiding real issues today



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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:25:50 EDT
From: Tuckervill@...
Subject: Re: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me


In a message dated 8/19/2004 9:49:15 AM Central Standard Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:

Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs! Yes,
it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people I
know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule, which
is so, ya know, un-AP!



~~~

I don't know about a schedule, but using a crate is a really nice way to
live with a dog. I don't feed my animals on a schedule. We use autofeeders
and the food is available all the time. None of my pets are overweight, but I
would guess if I had one that woofed its food down that I'd think twice about
autofeeders. But I'd probably leave it out and see if the dog would ever
get full. I'd bet it would relax after a while and not be so crazed about
getting it all.

My son and his wife have rescued 3 cats, and everyone of them are really,
really overweight now. They dole out the food once or twice a day, and it's
even weightloss food. The cats don't eat it all at once. But they live in a
small 1 bedroom apartment, so the cats don't have as much room to roam as mine
do. My son and I are trying to figure out why his cats are so fat (all
about the same age) and mine are not. I think it has to do with the very idea
that the food supply is controlled for his cats and not for mine. I think his
cats eat more because they know sometimes the bowl gets empty, and they never
know when it might be their turn to visit the bowl after the last cat just
ate the last morsel. So they gobble.

Our house is open to the pets. We have a pet door into the kitchen, and
they have the whole acre lot fenced in for their to use. (The cats don't stay
in the fence, though.) My dog would leave the yard and visit around the
neighborhood if there weren't a fence, but she'd come back because she knows where
her bed is.

We're about as AP as you can be with animals, but they ARE animals, and
not children.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:32:24 +0200
From: "Ulrike Haupt"
Subject: about fishing

Hi

One of my brothers was what we then called a 'Zappelphillip'. Today these
children are labelled ADD. His two passions where fishing and hunting. Both
required long periods of keeping absolutely still and quiet waiting for the
fish to bite or the game to come to the water hole. Go figure. :)

Blessed be
Ulrike



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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:19:51 +0200
From: "Ulrike Haupt"
Subject: Re: attitudes - response to Karen

Dear Valerie

I love your posts. And the following line I find tremendously soothing.


> Others saw her as a lazy kid that stayed up all night and slept most
> of the day. I saw a kid so interested in what she was doing that
> night and day were of no consequence to her schedule. She loved the
> quiet time of the night for getting on the computer and/or reading.

Alexander (12) has this rhythm or pattern, too. Days are for sleeping and
nights are for doing his thing. Every morning, when we meet, he shows me
what he created during the night: Animations, CAD designs, Cardboard
structures, Paper planes, more Lego Bey Blades, wire cars, music files,
board games, and more and I see the books lying around that he has read in
and I see from the left overs in the pots what he cooked for himself.

The big thing about this: Since we unschooled he has not been sick for a
single day!

I am deeply grateful for having found this list and reading all your
wonderful messages gives encourages me daily to stay with it, even though I
know no-one in the vicinity, who also unschools.

Ulrike
from Namibia
somewhere in Africa



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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:19:18 EDT
From: kbcdlovejo@...
Subject: Re: unschooling dogs

In a message dated 8/19/2004 10:49:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:

Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs! Yes,
it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people I
know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule, which
is so, ya know, un-AP! <<<<
It's best not anthropomorphize the dogs. They are dogs, not children. They
are den animals and prefer a 'covered' place of their own---something
'den-like'. Crates fit the bill.

Most people don't know much about dogs. They don't understand
age-appropriate or instinctive or breed-specific behaviors. They act as if they are
children. They aren't.

My dogs love their crates. Ryan will have his in the car (like a safety belt
for dogs) and in the hotel room. You're welcome to witness it! They'll
all nap in their crates with the doors open. It's a safe place---and should
ALWAYS be treated as such. Flying on airplanes is *easy* when the dog is
crate-trained. Often traumatic when not. Visiting friends and famiily who aren't
dog-friendly is also easier.

Scheduling the puppy is not so much for the puppy's sake (other than to
avoid human wrath), as for the human's. Potty training is easier when you know
when he'll have to pee or poop----scoot him outside as soon as you can. He
learns where to 'go' and can get praised for it. Praise for going outside is
perferable to pissing you off for going inside---and being on the receiving end
of a 'white-carpet-rant'. It's also using a natural tendency to not soil where
he sleeps-----he won't soil his crate, and so will naturally "hold it" until
he's let out of the crate and directly into the yard.

The easiest way to train a dog is to use his natural tendencies/instincts to
our advantage. That's how we got herding dogs and hunting dogs----herding,
pointing, retrieving are all 'parts' of the natural hunting drive----watch
wolves hunt in a pack; they used all this communication to work together.
Terriers instinctively dig and hunt. Hounds use their noses or eyes to trail and
hunt. Humans have just made the best of them by honing them to our needs.

For the most part, we've left strict obedience behind in favor of "house
manners"----more unschooly. But still, we know what's instinctive and how to
work WITH that, not against it.

~Kelly







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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:26:30 -0400
From: Vijay Berry Owens
Subject: Re: ADD (was about fishing)

That's what I don't get about my stepbrother (15) being diagnosed ADD or
ADHD can't recall which.

This boy is *brilliant* (not to say you can't be smart and still have
ADD) and spends hours playing violin (he studies every Saturday at
Juilliard) can play video games ALL DAY and can take anything (clocks,
answering machines, cameras) apart and put it painstakingly back
together again.

How is this a deficit of attention??? I had a cow when my mom told me
about this diagnosis. He is a troubled kid in some ways, and is in
therapy, but that's because of his neurotic mother and years of catholic
school, IMO.

How are doctors arriving at this conclusion? I know nothing about the
testing, but I am hoping they don't just pump him full of meds based on
this diagnosis.

-Vijay


On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 10:32 AM, Ulrike Haupt wrote:

> Hi
>
> One of my brothers was what we then called a 'Zappelphillip'. Today
> these
> children are labelled ADD. His two passions where fishing and hunting.
> Both
> required long periods of keeping absolutely still and quiet waiting for
> the
> fish to bite or the game to come to the water hole. Go figure. :)
>
> Blessed be
> Ulrike
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:23:12 -0000
From: "Valerie"
Subject: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me

> Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs! Yes,
> it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people I
> know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
> neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule,
which
> is so, ya know, un-AP!

***** Maelu runs free in the backyard and in the house. We only put

=== message truncated ===

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kiersten Pasciak

I do feel it is wrong and for that reason bring her out with us now.

My main problem is that my son gets up early, around 5:30, to go to
the bathroom. He very often chooses to stay up and get everyone else
up at this point. If we stay up with Emma late and then we all get
up early in the morning, I am not as nice of a mommy during the day
as I would choose to be. The sleep deprivation is getting to me.
I like Jacob's sleep schedule the way it is. He seems to be thriving
with this arrangement.

I guess I worry that Emma will adopt a routine so different from
Jacob's that I will get virtually NO alone time and begin to resent
her. I chose to stay home and we give up some things to make this
possible.

We don't sleep with her often, just because she seems to force
herself to stay awake. She crawls all over us and then she gets down
and plays. We have been laying in her room with her when she is
very, very tired now and she will go down eventually when we leave.
Most nights we do this a few times until she is ready to actually
sleep. Her door is left open and at any time, if she needs us, she
comes into our room and climbs up.

She seems to be trading sleep she needs for extra play time during
the day and at night. I say "needs" only because she looks tired and
rubs her eyes, etc.


Thank you for all your advice.
Maybe I need to focus on getting myself more help and time off so I
can better cope and wait until she finds her own schedule.
I'll keep you posted.



Kiersten


--- In [email protected], Millie Rosa
<willsmamamillie@y...> wrote:
> Kiersten,
> I agree w what Ren said, and I'll add my two cents:
>
> Please don't make your baby stay alone and scream at "bedtime!"
I understand that you need time for yourself and your dh, but you
are each adults and are better able to understand the situation and
put your childs fundamental needs ahead of yours. If you are not
going to bed, and your dd doesn't want to, then let her stay up. If
you are going to bed yourself, invite dd to come w you, and I bet
your sweet little thing will curl up next to her mama and doze right
off.
> I don't want to "beat you up" but I want to express how badly I
feel for little babies forced to wail alone in a room, unable to
gain consolation or help. She hasn't done anything wrong...probably
knows mama can hear her screaming...but why doesn't mama help? This
has got to be so traumatic to a child and I can't imagine it makes
any sense to them at all. A Mama's job is to respond to her
children, give them so much love and make them feel so safe, that
they will still see the value of living in a less than perfect
world...it is not the mama's job to teach children that the world
can be cruel and lonely!
> I also want to say that it takes extra time and can be
frustrating, but it is so worth it to lie with or rock your child
until she succumbs to sleep. I am sorry you don't have the tool of
nursing her to sleep, but maybe you could find a nice
substitute...massage is my best idea. If you want to try to work w
a "bedtime routine," I would suggest making it the best part of her
day, with as many books as she wants and conversation and love and
connection w her mama who helps her to sleep. BTW, I don't think
there is any possible way you could "force her to sleep." You can
lock her in her room to scream, but I implore you to please don't!
Make the investment in your child's happiness and well being and
spend the extra time and wait with her until she is asleep. If she
doesn't nod off, then get back up w her for a while.
> I am glad you are here and are committed to helping your child
and that you have decided that giving her the cold shoulder at
bedtime isn't right. It IS hard and frustrating sometimes to help
them to sleep, but so much better for us to endure this frustration
as part of the job than to force our children to feel unloved and
alone as they transition to sleep. I will stop now.
> Good luck in your new way of parenting to sleep!
> Millie
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> There are 24 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: any ideas a little ot
> From: Millie Rosa
> 2. Re: Digest Number 155
> From: michele-nappi@w...
> 3. Re: Digest Number 155
> From: "Crystal"
> 4. Valerie....Re: any ideas...a little OT
> From: "Valerie"
> 5. word play
> From: "Ren"
> 6. Re: Digest Number 155
> From: "Valerie"
> 7. Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
> From: "mamaaj2000"
> 8. Re: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
> From: Tuckervill@a...
> 9. about fishing
> From: "Ulrike Haupt"
> 10. Re: attitudes - response to Karen
> From: "Ulrike Haupt"
> 11. Re: unschooling dogs
> From: kbcdlovejo@a...
> 12. Re: ADD (was about fishing)
> From: Vijay Berry Owens
> 13. Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
> From: "Valerie"
> 14. illness
> From: "Valerie"
> 15. Re: illness
> From: Tuckervill@a...
> 16. Re: Re: Matthew Harre: What I learned...
> From: blessed54321@w...
> 17. "testers of knowledge"
> From: "Valerie"
> 18. Re: "testers of knowledge"
> From: Michelle
> 19. Sleep self-regulation at young ages (LONG)
> From: "Kiersten Pasciak"
> 20. Re: "testers of knowledge"
> From: "Valerie"
> 21. Re: "testers of knowledge"
> From: blessed54321@w...
> 22. Sleep self-regulation at young ages (LONG)
> From: "Ren Allen"
> 23. Valerie's coming! Was: testers of knowledge
> From: "Ren Allen"
> 24. Feeling left behind
> From: "Syndi"
>
>
>
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> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:01:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Millie Rosa
> Subject: Re: any ideas a little ot
>
> Rebecca,
> I was in bed for practically my whole pg w Will, and I read about
a novel a day during that time (though I probably haven't read 3 in
the 2.5 years since his birth), and I can reccommend many good
reads. Some favorites: A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, by Betty Smith,
which has a silly nursing story, but I loved this book and also Joy
in the Morning by the same author; Vanity Fair, by Sinclair Lewis,
Delta Wedding, by Eudora Welty, The Cider House Rules and The World
According to Garp, by John Irving, She's Come Undone, by Wally Lamb,
The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe, as well as ALL of his novels were
excellent...The Bonfire of the Vanities, can't seem to remember the
title of the one I liked best. Also, if you haven't read Tom
Robbins, he is awesome; check out Still Life With Woodpecker and
Skinny Legs and All.
> And then there was Steinbeck; I think I read everything he wrote
and I thoroughly enjoyed them all...read Grapes of Wrath, Pastures
of Heaven, oooh there are SO MANY excellent books by John Steinbeck.
OH YEAH and I also recommend Prodigal Summer by Barbara Kingsolver.
That's a lot of great reads...hth!
>
>
> ===
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:06:32 -0400
> From: michele-nappi@w...
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 155
>
> Valerie
> I don't think Jon has a passion just yet. He likes to fish. He
hangs out
> with older boys who have a car, boat, etc. and can go places. He
goes
> fishing with my husband, too. He seems to have listened well to
people
> telling him he is not smart and knows nothing. He has a hard time
tryng
> anything because he predetermines his failure at it, so why bother
> trying.
> We gently encourage him to try something he may like. We encourage
him
> to take one small step. I do agree that he is in angst. We talk
about
> that. He is seeking to fit in to "make it all better." The only
trouble
> with that is that change comes from the inside. That is the tricky
part.
> Sometimes it seems like he gets stuck in the blame game. It seems
he is
> stuck taking it out on me because he trusts me and I am handy.
Then he
> will apologize afterwards. It still feels bad to me. I want with
all my
> heart to see him succeed. I will stick by him and keep encouraging
him.
> Eventually he will find a passion. I didn't find one until my 30's.
> Michele
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:22:01 -0000
> From: "Crystal"
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 155
>
> Michelle,
>
> Why don't you think that fishing is a passion? If that is what he
> likes to do, couldn't you go fishing with him one day, let him
teach
> you about what it is he does, maybe take him fishing somewhere he
> hasn't been. You could even invite one of his friends to come if
he
> doesn't trust your motive. Even if you don't see the value in
> fishing, and even if he's only doing it as an escape, it may help
> your relationship.
>
> Crystal
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:09:16 -0000
> From: "Valerie"
> Subject: Valerie....Re: any ideas...a little OT
>
> --- In [email protected], "Wendy E"
> wrote:
> > Can your book generally be found in public libraries?
> >
>
> ***** It's in some libraries and I recently sent out a mailing to
> almost 4000 libraries. Whew! Hopefully more orders will come in
> soon. If you ask for it at your local library, it can't hurt. :-)
>
> Thank you
> love, Valerie
> www.ubpub.com
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:23:05 GMT
> From: "Ren"
> Subject: word play
>
>
> "A few minutes later, I'm sitting uncomfortably on my couch with
Mom
> and look down and one of the words is stuck to the top of my foot.
> Fancy footwork at its finest! "
>
> Oh geez!! Now THAT'S the truly funny part. What a great story..
>
> Ren
>
>
> Learn about unschooling at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:26:23 -0000
> From: "Valerie"
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 155
>
> --- In [email protected], michele-nappi@w... wrote:
> > Valerie
> > I don't think Jon has a passion just yet. He likes to fish. He
> hangs out with older boys who have a car, boat, etc. and can go
> places. He goes fishing with my husband, too.
>
> Sounds like fishing is a passion to him. My suggestions would be,
> ask him if he would teach you how to fish, take him to fishing
> rodeos (we have them here), get online with him and find fishing
> books at Amazon or half.com. In other words, let him know that you
> take his fishing passion seriously and that you're willing to do
> whatever it takes to help him pursue the fishing.
>
> Maybe fishing will become a lifestyle for him, maybe fishing is
his
> escape, maybe he just loves the quietness of fishing ( LOTS of
> thinking goes on when a person is fishing), maybe he'll someday
> create a television show around his fishing technique or maybe
he'll
> immerse himself totally into fishing and it'll lead to something
> else. No way to know just yet.
>
> Would you learn how to handle the boat so that the two of you
could
> go off together and fish? What an incredibly spiritual adventure
> that could be. Mom and Jon fishing quietly on the water. Sounds
> heavenly to me.
>
> What about hosting a fishing party for Jon and one or two of his
> friends? My dad took me and 5 other teenage girls crabbing from
his
> boat one time. It's one of my fondest childhood memories. And he
> really shone with patience. Imagine SIX teen girls in a boat in
the
> middle of the water!
>
> And there are so many ways to fish, so many different types of
fish
> to catch. Fishing from the boat, the shore, deepsea fishing, etc.
My
> dad has a million passions, but fishing is number one with him.
>
> Instead of looking for things that you might feel he SHOULD have a
> passion about, go with the one he already has. Fishing is an art
and
> if more teen boys could sit still long enough to fish, they'd
> probably be a lot more content. It's a physical and cerebral
> activity.
>
> love, Valerie
> www.ubpub.com
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:47:23 -0000
> From: "mamaaj2000"
> Subject: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
>
> --- In [email protected], "Valerie"
> wrote:
> > I was working on a speech about Learning vs Teaching that I'm
> giving
> > at the Sacramento conference this coming weekend. I paused to
> > continue "the education of Maelu," my nine month old dog.
>
> Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs! Yes,
> it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people I
> know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
> neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule,
which
> is so, ya know, un-AP!
>
> I know dogs are different than humans, though. We will get a dog
> someday and I've never liked the idea of animals in cages. Heck,
we
> had birds (and my mom still does) that were rarely in their cages
and
> did NOT have their wings clipped...
>
> --aj, happily avoiding real issues today
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:25:50 EDT
> From: Tuckervill@a...
> Subject: Re: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
>
>
> In a message dated 8/19/2004 9:49:15 AM Central Standard Time,
> mamaaj2000@y... writes:
>
> Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs! Yes,
> it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people I
> know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
> neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule,
which
> is so, ya know, un-AP!
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> I don't know about a schedule, but using a crate is a really nice
way to
> live with a dog. I don't feed my animals on a schedule. We use
autofeeders
> and the food is available all the time. None of my pets are
overweight, but I
> would guess if I had one that woofed its food down that I'd think
twice about
> autofeeders. But I'd probably leave it out and see if the dog
would ever
> get full. I'd bet it would relax after a while and not be so
crazed about
> getting it all.
>
> My son and his wife have rescued 3 cats, and everyone of them are
really,
> really overweight now. They dole out the food once or twice a day,
and it's
> even weightloss food. The cats don't eat it all at once. But they
live in a
> small 1 bedroom apartment, so the cats don't have as much room to
roam as mine
> do. My son and I are trying to figure out why his cats are so fat
(all
> about the same age) and mine are not. I think it has to do with
the very idea
> that the food supply is controlled for his cats and not for mine.
I think his
> cats eat more because they know sometimes the bowl gets empty, and
they never
> know when it might be their turn to visit the bowl after the last
cat just
> ate the last morsel. So they gobble.
>
> Our house is open to the pets. We have a pet door into the
kitchen, and
> they have the whole acre lot fenced in for their to use. (The cats
don't stay
> in the fence, though.) My dog would leave the yard and visit
around the
> neighborhood if there weren't a fence, but she'd come back because
she knows where
> her bed is.
>
> We're about as AP as you can be with animals, but they ARE
animals, and
> not children.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:32:24 +0200
> From: "Ulrike Haupt"
> Subject: about fishing
>
> Hi
>
> One of my brothers was what we then called a 'Zappelphillip'.
Today these
> children are labelled ADD. His two passions where fishing and
hunting. Both
> required long periods of keeping absolutely still and quiet
waiting for the
> fish to bite or the game to come to the water hole. Go figure. :)
>
> Blessed be
> Ulrike
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:19:51 +0200
> From: "Ulrike Haupt"
> Subject: Re: attitudes - response to Karen
>
> Dear Valerie
>
> I love your posts. And the following line I find tremendously
soothing.
>
>
> > Others saw her as a lazy kid that stayed up all night and slept
most
> > of the day. I saw a kid so interested in what she was doing that
> > night and day were of no consequence to her schedule. She loved
the
> > quiet time of the night for getting on the computer and/or
reading.
>
> Alexander (12) has this rhythm or pattern, too. Days are for
sleeping and
> nights are for doing his thing. Every morning, when we meet, he
shows me
> what he created during the night: Animations, CAD designs,
Cardboard
> structures, Paper planes, more Lego Bey Blades, wire cars, music
files,
> board games, and more and I see the books lying around that he has
read in
> and I see from the left overs in the pots what he cooked for
himself.
>
> The big thing about this: Since we unschooled he has not been sick
for a
> single day!
>
> I am deeply grateful for having found this list and reading all
your
> wonderful messages gives encourages me daily to stay with it, even
though I
> know no-one in the vicinity, who also unschools.
>
> Ulrike
> from Namibia
> somewhere in Africa
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:19:18 EDT
> From: kbcdlovejo@a...
> Subject: Re: unschooling dogs
>
> In a message dated 8/19/2004 10:49:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mamaaj2000@y... writes:
>
> Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs! Yes,
> it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people I
> know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
> neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule,
which
> is so, ya know, un-AP! <<<<
> It's best not anthropomorphize the dogs. They are dogs, not
children. They
> are den animals and prefer a 'covered' place of their own---
something
> 'den-like'. Crates fit the bill.
>
> Most people don't know much about dogs. They don't understand
> age-appropriate or instinctive or breed-specific behaviors. They
act as if they are
> children. They aren't.
>
> My dogs love their crates. Ryan will have his in the car (like a
safety belt
> for dogs) and in the hotel room. You're welcome to witness it!
They'll
> all nap in their crates with the doors open. It's a safe place---
and should
> ALWAYS be treated as such. Flying on airplanes is *easy* when the
dog is
> crate-trained. Often traumatic when not. Visiting friends and
famiily who aren't
> dog-friendly is also easier.
>
> Scheduling the puppy is not so much for the puppy's sake (other
than to
> avoid human wrath), as for the human's. Potty training is easier
when you know
> when he'll have to pee or poop----scoot him outside as soon as you
can. He
> learns where to 'go' and can get praised for it. Praise for going
outside is
> perferable to pissing you off for going inside---and being on the
receiving end
> of a 'white-carpet-rant'. It's also using a natural tendency to
not soil where
> he sleeps-----he won't soil his crate, and so will naturally "hold
it" until
> he's let out of the crate and directly into the yard.
>
> The easiest way to train a dog is to use his natural
tendencies/instincts to
> our advantage. That's how we got herding dogs and hunting dogs----
herding,
> pointing, retrieving are all 'parts' of the natural hunting drive--
--watch
> wolves hunt in a pack; they used all this communication to work
together.
> Terriers instinctively dig and hunt. Hounds use their noses or
eyes to trail and
> hunt. Humans have just made the best of them by honing them to our
needs.
>
> For the most part, we've left strict obedience behind in favor
of "house
> manners"----more unschooly. But still, we know what's instinctive
and how to
> work WITH that, not against it.
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:26:30 -0400
> From: Vijay Berry Owens
> Subject: Re: ADD (was about fishing)
>
> That's what I don't get about my stepbrother (15) being diagnosed
ADD or
> ADHD can't recall which.
>
> This boy is *brilliant* (not to say you can't be smart and still
have
> ADD) and spends hours playing violin (he studies every Saturday at
> Juilliard) can play video games ALL DAY and can take anything
(clocks,
> answering machines, cameras) apart and put it painstakingly back
> together again.
>
> How is this a deficit of attention??? I had a cow when my mom told
me
> about this diagnosis. He is a troubled kid in some ways, and is in
> therapy, but that's because of his neurotic mother and years of
catholic
> school, IMO.
>
> How are doctors arriving at this conclusion? I know nothing about
the
> testing, but I am hoping they don't just pump him full of meds
based on
> this diagnosis.
>
> -Vijay
>
>
> On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 10:32 AM, Ulrike Haupt wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > One of my brothers was what we then called a 'Zappelphillip'.
Today
> > these
> > children are labelled ADD. His two passions where fishing and
hunting.
> > Both
> > required long periods of keeping absolutely still and quiet
waiting for
> > the
> > fish to bite or the game to come to the water hole. Go figure. :)
> >
> > Blessed be
> > Ulrike
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:23:12 -0000
> From: "Valerie"
> Subject: Re: a funny "learning" experience for me
>
> > Well, this must be my opening to ask about unschooling dogs!
Yes,
> > it's silly, but I'm really wondering. It seems like most people
I
> > know who have dogs keep them in cages a lot of the time. And my
> > neighbor got a puppy and worked hard to get him on a schedule,
> which
> > is so, ya know, un-AP!
>
> ***** Maelu runs free in the backyard and in the house. We only
put
>
> === message truncated ===
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "Kiersten Pasciak"
<kjl8@c...> wrote:
> We don't sleep with her often, just because she seems to force
> herself to stay awake. She crawls all over us and then she gets
down
> and plays. We have been laying in her room with her when she is
> very, very tired now and she will go down eventually when we leave.
> Most nights we do this a few times until she is ready to actually
> sleep. Her door is left open and at any time, if she needs us, she
> comes into our room and climbs up.

Kiersten,

What I've found is that when I stop having a power struggle with one
of my kids, they (eventually, not immediately) stop struggling back!
So if you play with her until she crawls in your lap and goes to
sleep, over time she'll learn there's no reason to fight sleep. Right
now, going to sleep means being alone and she's telling you she
doesn't like it. When she learns that going to sleep means snuggle
time, she'll probably like it more.

I agree that you may lose some sleep in the beginning. If you can get
someone to watch the kids so you can nap, go for it! It could be a
teen or preteen, too, since you'll be in the house available for
emergencies.

Good luck and keep us posted!

--aj

Kiersten Pasciak

AJ,

Thank you for the support.
I am trying really hard to not let it become more of a power
struggle. I found today that it worked better for her nap if I took
Jacob to his room first and got him cozy. Then I had more time to
spend with her alone. Usually, I have tried to get her to sleep
first because he will play nicely by himself or watch TV while I do
it. (If they are both in the room, no one calms down)
I have noticed that I get tense when she doesn't cooperate right
away because I know Jacob is on his own and he wants attention too.
He will come to the door and ask me to play with him while I am
trying to calm her down and snuggle.

Hopefully this will help turn the tide.

Unfortunately, she did cry outside his room from wanting to be with
us while I got him tucked in. Only for a few minutes off and on,
mixed in with quiet playing with toys in the other room.

Seems either way she is frustrated, but today was calmer once we
were alone.

Of course as I write this, she is awake and crying and coming out
here after only 30 minutes of sleep.
Poop!


Thank you for the encouragement.
I know things can only get easier as she gets older, can't get much
worse, LOL

Kiersten

> Kiersten,
>
> What I've found is that when I stop having a power struggle with
one
> of my kids, they (eventually, not immediately) stop struggling
back!
> So if you play with her until she crawls in your lap and goes to
> sleep, over time she'll learn there's no reason to fight sleep.
Right
> now, going to sleep means being alone and she's telling you she
> doesn't like it. When she learns that going to sleep means snuggle
> time, she'll probably like it more.
>
> I agree that you may lose some sleep in the beginning. If you can
get
> someone to watch the kids so you can nap, go for it! It could be a
> teen or preteen, too, since you'll be in the house available for
> emergencies.
>
> Good luck and keep us posted!
>
> --aj