new to unschooling & a quick question
emmakania
Hi I'm Emma and I have just started deschooling my kids Josh age 8
and Ellie age 5. Josh was in school for 3 and a half years and
Ellie in school for 6 months before we removed Ellie in February
this year and Josh in April.
We started off doing school-at-home then i devised my own curriculum
then i moved onto a unit study approach based on them telling me
what they wanted to learn about and we did a project on Whales and
Ancient Egypt. We also carried on doing Maths & English workbooks.
My daughter really enjoys doing the workbooks but my son hates
them. I have wanted to deschool since the summer but with pressure
from my parents i felt that i had to carry on as we were and
getting 'proof' that they were learning. I realise now how wrong i
was and that I don't need proof. Just talking to them over dinner
shows me how much they are learning through playing together and i
love how much they have bonded since we stopped 'schoolwork' and
they can play together as much as they like. I have begun to trust
that the children will learn what they want to learn when they want
to learn it. I love the freedom that unschooling gives us.
My question is that my daughter loves Maths workbooks and actually
asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let her do them if
she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I distract her by
playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or not she should
do them as will this slow the process of unschooling? My son on the
other hand hates them so no problems like that for him.
At the moment we are just enjoying being together and i love
listening to the kids playing in their room.
Many thanks
Emma
www.myunschoolingjourney.blogspot.com
and Ellie age 5. Josh was in school for 3 and a half years and
Ellie in school for 6 months before we removed Ellie in February
this year and Josh in April.
We started off doing school-at-home then i devised my own curriculum
then i moved onto a unit study approach based on them telling me
what they wanted to learn about and we did a project on Whales and
Ancient Egypt. We also carried on doing Maths & English workbooks.
My daughter really enjoys doing the workbooks but my son hates
them. I have wanted to deschool since the summer but with pressure
from my parents i felt that i had to carry on as we were and
getting 'proof' that they were learning. I realise now how wrong i
was and that I don't need proof. Just talking to them over dinner
shows me how much they are learning through playing together and i
love how much they have bonded since we stopped 'schoolwork' and
they can play together as much as they like. I have begun to trust
that the children will learn what they want to learn when they want
to learn it. I love the freedom that unschooling gives us.
My question is that my daughter loves Maths workbooks and actually
asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let her do them if
she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I distract her by
playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or not she should
do them as will this slow the process of unschooling? My son on the
other hand hates them so no problems like that for him.
At the moment we are just enjoying being together and i love
listening to the kids playing in their room.
Many thanks
Emma
www.myunschoolingjourney.blogspot.com
Mara
Hi Emma,
welcome to the list and congratulations on your new
and exciting unschooling journey! As I understand it,
Unschooling is not to avoid anything that looks
school-like. It encompasses ALL the wonderful things
life has to offer - like you have already realized:
trusting your children to live and learn when and how
they like to do it - if that involves workbooks,
that's just another tool like anything else. If your
daughter has fun doing them and actually asks for
them, sit down with her and do them. As time goes on
she might move on to other fun ways to play with math
and numbers (I am sure some people here have some good
suggestions that you could offer her). But if she
keeps enjoying the workbooks and asks for them I see
no harm in doing them. When my 3-year-old asks me to
print letters for him I do it, just as I let him play
and experiment with the toilet mechanism or what
happens if you put all kinds of kitchen things
together to make a 'soup'. My 6 year old has no
interest in workbooks and when they have been given to
us before by well-meaning relatives he finds them
boring . He did love maze books though and could not
get enough of them. My 3-year-old actually loves some
of the 'learning' games that my older never asks for.
They are all so different and it is so amazing to
watch them learn and figure things out in their own
way -
All the best to you
Mara
with 4 boys (20, 16, 6 and 3) and a wonderful husband
--- emmakania <emmakania@...> wrote:
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
welcome to the list and congratulations on your new
and exciting unschooling journey! As I understand it,
Unschooling is not to avoid anything that looks
school-like. It encompasses ALL the wonderful things
life has to offer - like you have already realized:
trusting your children to live and learn when and how
they like to do it - if that involves workbooks,
that's just another tool like anything else. If your
daughter has fun doing them and actually asks for
them, sit down with her and do them. As time goes on
she might move on to other fun ways to play with math
and numbers (I am sure some people here have some good
suggestions that you could offer her). But if she
keeps enjoying the workbooks and asks for them I see
no harm in doing them. When my 3-year-old asks me to
print letters for him I do it, just as I let him play
and experiment with the toilet mechanism or what
happens if you put all kinds of kitchen things
together to make a 'soup'. My 6 year old has no
interest in workbooks and when they have been given to
us before by well-meaning relatives he finds them
boring . He did love maze books though and could not
get enough of them. My 3-year-old actually loves some
of the 'learning' games that my older never asks for.
They are all so different and it is so amazing to
watch them learn and figure things out in their own
way -
All the best to you
Mara
with 4 boys (20, 16, 6 and 3) and a wonderful husband
--- emmakania <emmakania@...> wrote:
> Hi I'm Emma and I have just started deschooling my____________________________________________________________________________________
> kids Josh age 8
> and Ellie age 5. Josh was in school for 3 and a
> half years and
> Ellie in school for 6 months before we removed Ellie
> in February
> this year and Josh in April.
>
> We started off doing school-at-home then i devised
> my own curriculum
> then i moved onto a unit study approach based on
> them telling me
> what they wanted to learn about and we did a project
> on Whales and
> Ancient Egypt. We also carried on doing Maths &
> English workbooks.
> My daughter really enjoys doing the workbooks but my
> son hates
> them. I have wanted to deschool since the summer
> but with pressure
> from my parents i felt that i had to carry on as we
> were and
> getting 'proof' that they were learning. I realise
> now how wrong i
> was and that I don't need proof. Just talking to
> them over dinner
> shows me how much they are learning through playing
> together and i
> love how much they have bonded since we stopped
> 'schoolwork' and
> they can play together as much as they like. I have
> begun to trust
> that the children will learn what they want to learn
> when they want
> to learn it. I love the freedom that unschooling
> gives us.
>
> My question is that my daughter loves Maths
> workbooks and actually
> asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let
> her do them if
> she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I
> distract her by
> playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or
> not she should
> do them as will this slow the process of
> unschooling? My son on the
> other hand hates them so no problems like that for
> him.
>
> At the moment we are just enjoying being together
> and i love
> listening to the kids playing in their room.
>
> Many thanks
> Emma
> www.myunschoolingjourney.blogspot.com
>
>
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 18, 2007, at 9:33 AM, emmakania wrote:
do them to learn math, there's no problem :-) (And as long as *your*
not giving greater importance to her spending her time on them.)
Just be sure there are other activities she can choose also.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My question is that my daughter loves Maths workbooks and actuallyAs long as she's doing them for fun, and doesn't think she needs to
> asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let her do them if
> she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I distract her by
> playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or not she should
> do them as will this slow the process of unschooling?
do them to learn math, there's no problem :-) (And as long as *your*
not giving greater importance to her spending her time on them.)
Just be sure there are other activities she can choose also.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
Hi and Welcome!
I would say that because your daughter is so young, and has so little
affect from school, that deschooling is not as important for her as
it is for your son. For her, it's not a reflection of her worth, she
truly enjoys the challenge of the workbooks. We had a child who
wanted to keep working after pulling from school, but NOT because
they enjoyed it but because they bought into the idea that without
book learning they would not know anything.
I think it's wonderful that you've come to unschooling, it's a
growing process for parents as well as kids. I've enjoyed finding
myself and deschooling myself.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (9), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (2)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
I would say that because your daughter is so young, and has so little
affect from school, that deschooling is not as important for her as
it is for your son. For her, it's not a reflection of her worth, she
truly enjoys the challenge of the workbooks. We had a child who
wanted to keep working after pulling from school, but NOT because
they enjoyed it but because they bought into the idea that without
book learning they would not know anything.
I think it's wonderful that you've come to unschooling, it's a
growing process for parents as well as kids. I've enjoyed finding
myself and deschooling myself.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (9), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (2)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Dec 18, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Mara wrote:
> > My question is that my daughter loves Maths
> > workbooks and actually
> > asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let
> > her do them if
> > she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I
> > distract her by
> > playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or
> > not she should
> > do them as will this slow the process of
> > unschooling? My son on the
> > other hand hates them so no problems like that for
> > him.
> >
> > At the moment we are just enjoying being together
> > and i love
> > listening to the kids playing in their room.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
Hi, my name is Jodi and I've posted a few times here. We have twin 3 year old girls (I would LOVE to hear from anyone who is unschooling multiples!).
My question today is regarding their ages and stages...I have ordered tons of books, and have read so much my head is spinning with ideas and information, which is fantastic and a bit overwhelming too. I have read so much about the way that unschooling incorporates the whole child, the whole family, everything about everything! So far our girls have a pretty predictable routine, but there has been no fighting it, we pretty much have let them determine what the 'schedule' will be For example they recently stopped napping in the afternoons so they are tired at 7:30 p.m. instead of 9:30 p.m., so it's very easy to tuck them into bed at that time because they are honestly played out and ready to sleep.
I get that with older kids they can just put themselves to bed when they are tired, eat when they are hungry, etc., and that at some point they make a connection between when they are tired and when they need to sleep. I also get that some of you have older kids that model also for the little ones. When my girls go to bed later than 7:30 (I do encourage them to keep moving with the bedtime routine so it happens sooner rather than later, but in a pretty relaxed way) they still wake up at 6:30 a.m. and are cranky, then they refuse to take a nap even though they are completely exhausted and obviously could hugely benefit from a nap. If they happen to fall asleep in the car they have a dramatic mood change for the rest of the day which isn't just about making things easier for me, but obviously they deal with everything more easily too (I know how I feel when I'm that tired!!!).
So...ho many decisions do unschoolers make for their younger children?? We have always been a child-centered household, and have no problem letting them determine lots and lots of things for themselves, but it does seem that toddlers need some guidance in some areas while they are still massively learing about how they work, how relationships work, our household works, figuring it all out.
The other issue we have is them fighting between each other so much. We try to model calm, respectful, happy, etc., and I'm mystifed by how much they have power struggles with each other when they don't see it happening around them too much. How much am I supposed to interfere to help them work things out and how much am I supposed to leave alone? They are getting bigger and while they are no longer biting each other because they have more words to use, the other day Skye hit Jade on the head with a pot and left a big egg on her head and we all ended up on the floor bawling.
Any input/feedback on all this (and any other little thing you think I need to know :o)) would be MOST appreciated right now!!
I'm SO glad I have you guys to ask this stuff too. I'm beginning to see how unschooling MYSELF involves every single area of my life and all my thinking. This is growth man!!!
Cheers,
Jodi
Melissa <autismhelp@...> wrote:
Hi and Welcome!
I would say that because your daughter is so young, and has so little
affect from school, that deschooling is not as important for her as
it is for your son. For her, it's not a reflection of her worth, she
truly enjoys the challenge of the workbooks. We had a child who
wanted to keep working after pulling from school, but NOT because
they enjoyed it but because they bought into the idea that without
book learning they would not know anything.
I think it's wonderful that you've come to unschooling, it's a
growing process for parents as well as kids. I've enjoyed finding
myself and deschooling myself.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (9), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (2)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
My question today is regarding their ages and stages...I have ordered tons of books, and have read so much my head is spinning with ideas and information, which is fantastic and a bit overwhelming too. I have read so much about the way that unschooling incorporates the whole child, the whole family, everything about everything! So far our girls have a pretty predictable routine, but there has been no fighting it, we pretty much have let them determine what the 'schedule' will be For example they recently stopped napping in the afternoons so they are tired at 7:30 p.m. instead of 9:30 p.m., so it's very easy to tuck them into bed at that time because they are honestly played out and ready to sleep.
I get that with older kids they can just put themselves to bed when they are tired, eat when they are hungry, etc., and that at some point they make a connection between when they are tired and when they need to sleep. I also get that some of you have older kids that model also for the little ones. When my girls go to bed later than 7:30 (I do encourage them to keep moving with the bedtime routine so it happens sooner rather than later, but in a pretty relaxed way) they still wake up at 6:30 a.m. and are cranky, then they refuse to take a nap even though they are completely exhausted and obviously could hugely benefit from a nap. If they happen to fall asleep in the car they have a dramatic mood change for the rest of the day which isn't just about making things easier for me, but obviously they deal with everything more easily too (I know how I feel when I'm that tired!!!).
So...ho many decisions do unschoolers make for their younger children?? We have always been a child-centered household, and have no problem letting them determine lots and lots of things for themselves, but it does seem that toddlers need some guidance in some areas while they are still massively learing about how they work, how relationships work, our household works, figuring it all out.
The other issue we have is them fighting between each other so much. We try to model calm, respectful, happy, etc., and I'm mystifed by how much they have power struggles with each other when they don't see it happening around them too much. How much am I supposed to interfere to help them work things out and how much am I supposed to leave alone? They are getting bigger and while they are no longer biting each other because they have more words to use, the other day Skye hit Jade on the head with a pot and left a big egg on her head and we all ended up on the floor bawling.
Any input/feedback on all this (and any other little thing you think I need to know :o)) would be MOST appreciated right now!!
I'm SO glad I have you guys to ask this stuff too. I'm beginning to see how unschooling MYSELF involves every single area of my life and all my thinking. This is growth man!!!
Cheers,
Jodi
Melissa <autismhelp@...> wrote:
Hi and Welcome!
I would say that because your daughter is so young, and has so little
affect from school, that deschooling is not as important for her as
it is for your son. For her, it's not a reflection of her worth, she
truly enjoys the challenge of the workbooks. We had a child who
wanted to keep working after pulling from school, but NOT because
they enjoyed it but because they bought into the idea that without
book learning they would not know anything.
I think it's wonderful that you've come to unschooling, it's a
growing process for parents as well as kids. I've enjoyed finding
myself and deschooling myself.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (9), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (2)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Dec 18, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Mara wrote:
> > My question is that my daughter loves Maths
> > workbooks and actually
> > asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let
> > her do them if
> > she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I
> > distract her by
> > playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or
> > not she should
> > do them as will this slow the process of
> > unschooling? My son on the
> > other hand hates them so no problems like that for
> > him.
> >
> > At the moment we are just enjoying being together
> > and i love
> > listening to the kids playing in their room.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/07 6:43:41 AM, emmakania@... writes:
MEANS "let" her do them. She's enjoying herself. By distracting her, you are
actually not allowing her to do what she wants in her way - which is what
unschooling is about. I wonder, are you concerned that she is doing them to please
you or your parents? If you feel sure that is the case, and it's not really a
deep love of hers after all, then I'd suggest that you talk with her about it
and see if you can connect with her about what is driving her to continue.
It's not that workbooks and cirriculum are not allowed, or a not a part of
unschooling - it's the enforcement of them. Anything that interferes with the child
leading, or with their delight in the learning, quickly becomes schooly and
then not unschooling at all. Even if it's all painting all the time - if the
child isn't wanting to and not enjoying it for their own sake, it's not
unschooling. Just remember, her unschooling my look VERY different from your son's,
who's might look different from my son's, who might look different from my
daughter's...and so on :) I know if I had been unschooled, I would have been
slightly more academic in appearance than many of the descriptions I read here and
have seen in person. I know another person mentioned that here once too.
You sound like you are doing all you can to relieve any pressure left from
school and support your love of unschooling. It's the best journy I've ever
taken...and the best thing, it just goes on and on and on...:)
Take care!
Karen...who consideres herself new as well!
**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My question is that my daughter loves Maths workbooks and actuallyEmma, to me, if she loves them (I was a lover of workbooks too, lol), by all
> asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let her do them if
> she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I distract her by
> playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or not she should
> do them as will this slow the process of unschooling? My son on the
> other hand hates them so no problems like that for him.
>
>
MEANS "let" her do them. She's enjoying herself. By distracting her, you are
actually not allowing her to do what she wants in her way - which is what
unschooling is about. I wonder, are you concerned that she is doing them to please
you or your parents? If you feel sure that is the case, and it's not really a
deep love of hers after all, then I'd suggest that you talk with her about it
and see if you can connect with her about what is driving her to continue.
It's not that workbooks and cirriculum are not allowed, or a not a part of
unschooling - it's the enforcement of them. Anything that interferes with the child
leading, or with their delight in the learning, quickly becomes schooly and
then not unschooling at all. Even if it's all painting all the time - if the
child isn't wanting to and not enjoying it for their own sake, it's not
unschooling. Just remember, her unschooling my look VERY different from your son's,
who's might look different from my son's, who might look different from my
daughter's...and so on :) I know if I had been unschooled, I would have been
slightly more academic in appearance than many of the descriptions I read here and
have seen in person. I know another person mentioned that here once too.
You sound like you are doing all you can to relieve any pressure left from
school and support your love of unschooling. It's the best journy I've ever
taken...and the best thing, it just goes on and on and on...:)
Take care!
Karen...who consideres herself new as well!
**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dory
--- Hi Emma! I would just leave the workbooks somewhere available
for her to get them when she feels like doing them. That's one way
that she prefers to learn, so why not encourage it? If you leave
them somewhere she can get to them, she makes the choice when to do
them or not! dory
In [email protected], "emmakania" <emmakania@...>
wrote:
for her to get them when she feels like doing them. That's one way
that she prefers to learn, so why not encourage it? If you leave
them somewhere she can get to them, she makes the choice when to do
them or not! dory
In [email protected], "emmakania" <emmakania@...>
wrote:
>curriculum
> Hi I'm Emma and I have just started deschooling my kids Josh age 8
> and Ellie age 5. Josh was in school for 3 and a half years and
> Ellie in school for 6 months before we removed Ellie in February
> this year and Josh in April.
>
> We started off doing school-at-home then i devised my own
> then i moved onto a unit study approach based on them telling meworkbooks.
> what they wanted to learn about and we did a project on Whales and
> Ancient Egypt. We also carried on doing Maths & English
> My daughter really enjoys doing the workbooks but my son hatesthe
> them. I have wanted to deschool since the summer but with pressure
> from my parents i felt that i had to carry on as we were and
> getting 'proof' that they were learning. I realise now how wrong i
> was and that I don't need proof. Just talking to them over dinner
> shows me how much they are learning through playing together and i
> love how much they have bonded since we stopped 'schoolwork' and
> they can play together as much as they like. I have begun to trust
> that the children will learn what they want to learn when they want
> to learn it. I love the freedom that unschooling gives us.
>
> My question is that my daughter loves Maths workbooks and actually
> asks to do them. Whilst we are deschooling do I let her do them if
> she asks. At the moment when she asks to do them I distract her by
> playing a game with her as I am not sure whether or not she should
> do them as will this slow the process of unschooling? My son on
> other hand hates them so no problems like that for him.
>
> At the moment we are just enjoying being together and i love
> listening to the kids playing in their room.
>
> Many thanks
> Emma
> www.myunschoolingjourney.blogspot.com
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 18, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Jodi Bezzola wrote:
noticing when they're tired and begin winding down the night, turn
down the lights, do quieter activities. Help them transition.
We can notice that they haven't eaten and bring food to them. Or keep
easily grabbed healthy snacks readily available.
down?
Or have a settle-down under blankets with a video or books with
soothing music *before* they get to the too tired to sleep stage.
it's better to be aware of their needs and help them. But don't turn
a solution you get stuck on into the new problem. Don't turn the
problem of them being tired into the problem of getting them to take
a nap. Keep focused on helping them with their tiredness.
and redirect them or take one away to do something with you (get
drinks for everyone, help you carry towels to the closet , etc.) Be
there before they get to the hitting stage. It's your job to make
sure everyone feels safe.
They don't need to fight with each other to figure out how not to
fight! What they need most is maturity and your help in finding
better ways that don't hurt someone else to get what they want. That
will come with time, obviously.
Sandra Dodd has some good information at her website:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I get that with older kids they can just put themselves to bed whenActually there's help there along the way. We can help them by
> they are tired, eat when they are hungry, etc., and that at some
> point they make a connection between when they are tired and when
> they need to sleep.
noticing when they're tired and begin winding down the night, turn
down the lights, do quieter activities. Help them transition.
We can notice that they haven't eaten and bring food to them. Or keep
easily grabbed healthy snacks readily available.
> they still wake up at 6:30 a.m. and are cranky, then they refuse toAnd if you were in the midst of having fun, would you want to go lay
> take a nap even though they are completely exhausted and obviously
> could hugely benefit from a nap.
down?
> If they happen to fall asleep in the carGo for more rides :-)
Or have a settle-down under blankets with a video or books with
soothing music *before* they get to the too tired to sleep stage.
> So...ho many decisions do unschoolers make for their youngerI think rather than thinking in terms of making decisions for them,
> children??
it's better to be aware of their needs and help them. But don't turn
a solution you get stuck on into the new problem. Don't turn the
problem of them being tired into the problem of getting them to take
a nap. Keep focused on helping them with their tiredness.
> I'm mystifed by how much they have power struggles with each otherPower struggles aren't learned. They're instinctual.
> when they don't see it happening around them too much.
> How much am I supposed to interfere to help them work things outDon't leave them alone together. Be more aware of escalating tensions
> and how much am I supposed to leave alone?
and redirect them or take one away to do something with you (get
drinks for everyone, help you carry towels to the closet , etc.) Be
there before they get to the hitting stage. It's your job to make
sure everyone feels safe.
They don't need to fight with each other to figure out how not to
fight! What they need most is maturity and your help in finding
better ways that don't hurt someone else to get what they want. That
will come with time, obviously.
Sandra Dodd has some good information at her website:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
**The other issue we have is them fighting between each other so much. We
try to model calm, respectful, happy, etc., and I'm mystified by how much they
have power struggles with each other when they don't see it happening around
them too much.**
Power struggles and fighting are not learned behaviors *Avoiding* the power
struggles is something that has to be learned. It takes lots of trial and error
over a lot of years. Don't feel like you're doing something wrong or
something is wrong with your kids because they fight.
**They are getting bigger and while they are no longer biting each other
because they have more words to use, the other day Skye hit Jade on the head with
a pot and left a big egg on her head and we all ended up on the floor
bawling.**
My twins no longer *really* hurt each other - it's been ages since they drew
blood or raised a bruise. They're very very good friends, they get along well,
like each other, respect each other's opinions and like to spend time
together. Really, though, they were always very close, even when they were hurting
each other, deliberately antagonizing each other, fighting what sometimes felt
like all the time.
They're 15 now. :) I think the last big incident was when they were 9 or 10,
maybe? Sarah was sorting something valuable to her and Patrick kept touching
her stuff in a taunting way so she shoved him away, his head hit the door
hinges opening a small cut in his scalp that bled profusely in the way head wounds
sometimes do, so when he sort of slid down the wall he left a bloody streak.
It was a quite dramatic moment that pretty much ended the physical aggression
cycle between them.
More disturbing to me personally were the years that the more verbally adept
child was viciously wounding the other with words. Thankfully that too has
passed. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is a
fantasy.
Gotta go. Fun Club holiday party, hurrah!
Deborah in IL
**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
try to model calm, respectful, happy, etc., and I'm mystified by how much they
have power struggles with each other when they don't see it happening around
them too much.**
Power struggles and fighting are not learned behaviors *Avoiding* the power
struggles is something that has to be learned. It takes lots of trial and error
over a lot of years. Don't feel like you're doing something wrong or
something is wrong with your kids because they fight.
**They are getting bigger and while they are no longer biting each other
because they have more words to use, the other day Skye hit Jade on the head with
a pot and left a big egg on her head and we all ended up on the floor
bawling.**
My twins no longer *really* hurt each other - it's been ages since they drew
blood or raised a bruise. They're very very good friends, they get along well,
like each other, respect each other's opinions and like to spend time
together. Really, though, they were always very close, even when they were hurting
each other, deliberately antagonizing each other, fighting what sometimes felt
like all the time.
They're 15 now. :) I think the last big incident was when they were 9 or 10,
maybe? Sarah was sorting something valuable to her and Patrick kept touching
her stuff in a taunting way so she shoved him away, his head hit the door
hinges opening a small cut in his scalp that bled profusely in the way head wounds
sometimes do, so when he sort of slid down the wall he left a bloody streak.
It was a quite dramatic moment that pretty much ended the physical aggression
cycle between them.
More disturbing to me personally were the years that the more verbally adept
child was viciously wounding the other with words. Thankfully that too has
passed. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is a
fantasy.
Gotta go. Fun Club holiday party, hurrah!
Deborah in IL
**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~They're 15 now. :) I think the last big incident was when they were
9 or 10,
maybe?~~
We were trying to remember the last time Trevor (18) and Jared (14)
had a fight. Couldn't do it. It's been years and years though.
I think it's hard when you hear about peaceful interactions on the
lists and then face your very real life, where there are disagreements
and difficulties. But just because we talk about what works, doesn't
mean there aren't very difficult moments in our homes.:)
Jalen (6) and Sierra (10) are the most likely to devolve into hitting
or some form of aggression. Mostly because he doesn't have as many
problem-solving tools yet and she gets overwhelmed with him at times.
Heck, *I* get overwhelmed at his intensity sometimes and she's got a
lot less life experience than I do to draw upon.
There is no failure at modeling respect and peaceful interactions when
your children have rough moments. I think those struggles are a valid
and important part of their learning process.
Sure, we arbitrate or intervene or be proactive when they need it. But
when things fall apart and the process doesn't end up with some
peaceful result, that's ok. Sometimes human interactions are messy!
I trust that together we will learn better and more effective ways of
working things out. Together we get frustrated and do it different the
next time. Or just accept some frustration and struggle as part of the
human experience.:)
Then we hug and laugh and move on. The process of problem solving and
trying operate democratically isn't perfect (or maybe the process is,
but humans are geared for trial and error learning). We just keep
trusting the process and trusting that things just fall apart sometimes.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
9 or 10,
maybe?~~
We were trying to remember the last time Trevor (18) and Jared (14)
had a fight. Couldn't do it. It's been years and years though.
I think it's hard when you hear about peaceful interactions on the
lists and then face your very real life, where there are disagreements
and difficulties. But just because we talk about what works, doesn't
mean there aren't very difficult moments in our homes.:)
Jalen (6) and Sierra (10) are the most likely to devolve into hitting
or some form of aggression. Mostly because he doesn't have as many
problem-solving tools yet and she gets overwhelmed with him at times.
Heck, *I* get overwhelmed at his intensity sometimes and she's got a
lot less life experience than I do to draw upon.
There is no failure at modeling respect and peaceful interactions when
your children have rough moments. I think those struggles are a valid
and important part of their learning process.
Sure, we arbitrate or intervene or be proactive when they need it. But
when things fall apart and the process doesn't end up with some
peaceful result, that's ok. Sometimes human interactions are messy!
I trust that together we will learn better and more effective ways of
working things out. Together we get frustrated and do it different the
next time. Or just accept some frustration and struggle as part of the
human experience.:)
Then we hug and laugh and move on. The process of problem solving and
trying operate democratically isn't perfect (or maybe the process is,
but humans are geared for trial and error learning). We just keep
trusting the process and trusting that things just fall apart sometimes.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Jodi Bezzola
Thank you so much Ren for your compassionate email. It made me cry actually (doesn't take much these days :o)), and it felt so good to be reassured that I'm not doing anything 'wrong', that all that we're experiencing in normal. It's such a default in our culture to feel guilty when something goes 'wrong'.
Thanks also to you Deborah for writing about your twins, that really helped too. My girls love each other passionately and work things out passionately too!
I loved being reminded that relationships are just messy sometimes, and to trust trust trust...I'm trying to just let them be, let myself be, let it all be!!! :o)
Thanks for replying,
Jodi
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~They're 15 now. :) I think the last big incident was when they were
9 or 10,
maybe?~~
We were trying to remember the last time Trevor (18) and Jared (14)
had a fight. Couldn't do it. It's been years and years though.
I think it's hard when you hear about peaceful interactions on the
lists and then face your very real life, where there are disagreements
and difficulties. But just because we talk about what works, doesn't
mean there aren't very difficult moments in our homes.:)
Jalen (6) and Sierra (10) are the most likely to devolve into hitting
or some form of aggression. Mostly because he doesn't have as many
problem-solving tools yet and she gets overwhelmed with him at times.
Heck, *I* get overwhelmed at his intensity sometimes and she's got a
lot less life experience than I do to draw upon.
There is no failure at modeling respect and peaceful interactions when
your children have rough moments. I think those struggles are a valid
and important part of their learning process.
Sure, we arbitrate or intervene or be proactive when they need it. But
when things fall apart and the process doesn't end up with some
peaceful result, that's ok. Sometimes human interactions are messy!
I trust that together we will learn better and more effective ways of
working things out. Together we get frustrated and do it different the
next time. Or just accept some frustration and struggle as part of the
human experience.:)
Then we hug and laugh and move on. The process of problem solving and
trying operate democratically isn't perfect (or maybe the process is,
but humans are geared for trial and error learning). We just keep
trusting the process and trusting that things just fall apart sometimes.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks also to you Deborah for writing about your twins, that really helped too. My girls love each other passionately and work things out passionately too!
I loved being reminded that relationships are just messy sometimes, and to trust trust trust...I'm trying to just let them be, let myself be, let it all be!!! :o)
Thanks for replying,
Jodi
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~They're 15 now. :) I think the last big incident was when they were
9 or 10,
maybe?~~
We were trying to remember the last time Trevor (18) and Jared (14)
had a fight. Couldn't do it. It's been years and years though.
I think it's hard when you hear about peaceful interactions on the
lists and then face your very real life, where there are disagreements
and difficulties. But just because we talk about what works, doesn't
mean there aren't very difficult moments in our homes.:)
Jalen (6) and Sierra (10) are the most likely to devolve into hitting
or some form of aggression. Mostly because he doesn't have as many
problem-solving tools yet and she gets overwhelmed with him at times.
Heck, *I* get overwhelmed at his intensity sometimes and she's got a
lot less life experience than I do to draw upon.
There is no failure at modeling respect and peaceful interactions when
your children have rough moments. I think those struggles are a valid
and important part of their learning process.
Sure, we arbitrate or intervene or be proactive when they need it. But
when things fall apart and the process doesn't end up with some
peaceful result, that's ok. Sometimes human interactions are messy!
I trust that together we will learn better and more effective ways of
working things out. Together we get frustrated and do it different the
next time. Or just accept some frustration and struggle as part of the
human experience.:)
Then we hug and laugh and move on. The process of problem solving and
trying operate democratically isn't perfect (or maybe the process is,
but humans are geared for trial and error learning). We just keep
trusting the process and trusting that things just fall apart sometimes.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kendrah Nilsestuen
<<Thank you so much Ren for your compassionate email. It made me cry
actually
(doesn't take much these days :o))>>
Yeah, Ren made me cry once too. She has that effect, in a good way!
Her heartfelt words (which I've attached below) reached my inner
child, let me have a good cry, and in the 6 months since have started
me on a journey that has allowed me an incredible amount of healing
on both the issues of TV & forgiving my mother.
Thanks again Ren!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/23808
In addition, I think the experience of my childhood has made spending
time with my children such a priority. It doesn't matter what we do
during the day. We can go somewhere new and exciting, we can meet new
friends, or see old ones. But, when my husband comes home the first
thing my 4 y/o daughter tells him about, the obvious highlight of her
day, is when her and I have undivided playtime on my son's nap.
Kendrah:)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
actually
(doesn't take much these days :o))>>
Yeah, Ren made me cry once too. She has that effect, in a good way!
Her heartfelt words (which I've attached below) reached my inner
child, let me have a good cry, and in the 6 months since have started
me on a journey that has allowed me an incredible amount of healing
on both the issues of TV & forgiving my mother.
Thanks again Ren!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/23808
In addition, I think the experience of my childhood has made spending
time with my children such a priority. It doesn't matter what we do
during the day. We can go somewhere new and exciting, we can meet new
friends, or see old ones. But, when my husband comes home the first
thing my 4 y/o daughter tells him about, the obvious highlight of her
day, is when her and I have undivided playtime on my son's nap.
Kendrah:)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
Hi Kendrah, thanks for writing. It was good for me to read what Ren wrote to you about tv because I have my own issues with it as well. I grew up in a house with no tv, and until now our kids haven't watched tv, just dvds that I've selected as being appropriate for their age - not too fast moving, supportive messages, etc. They have about 8-9 of them and they choose what they want to watch, and when they're done they just get up and start playing again. I would LOVE to have no history, no story, no feelings about this black box in our living room, but I DO! It was seen as 'evil' in the church I grew up in, something that was implied that Jesus would never do. Now I believe that's a load of malarky, but I bought into it for a long time, AND, because it was so forbidden, watched very compulsively and addictively every chance I got, then got my own when I was around 30 (when I left the church), and watched for a few years straight until I got bored with it. I have no
desire to create that sort of dynamic for my girls, and yet I know my energy around the thing isn't completely clear either. I guess the main thing is that I'm aware of it and I'm open to having it shift so I don't pass it on.
Usually when the girls ask to watch something I put it on and go get something, anything (!) done, but yesterday the girls asked to watch a Thomas the Train movie I bought recently and I wanted to watch it with them to see the content so we snuggled on the couch and ended up having the nicest time together all under a blanket - I even ended up getting in a much needed nap! :o) So the reframing process has begun.
I am continuing to marvel at how this journey is SO not just for the kids. I am doing SO much learning and growing since we took the plunge into unschooling. I'm such a believer now that this is the way our family is meant to operate - we are totally on purpose now :o).
Thanks again so much for all the support, it means alot to me to have an avenue to ask questions and get feedback, especially because my dh isn't quite as on board with all this as I am. Does anyone have any suggestions for websites, avenues, etc. that would help him "see the light"? :o))) There is such a difference in the flow during the day and then after he comes home it is slightly more restricted because he doesn't really understand what we're doing. I've tried to talk with him, but quite honestly, he would hear it much better if it was coming from someone else. I know Alfie Kohn is coming to our city soon, so I'd like to take him to that, but any more suggestions???
Jodi
Kendrah Nilsestuen <carebear-79@...> wrote:
<<Thank you so much Ren for your compassionate email. It made me cry
actually
(doesn't take much these days :o))>>
Yeah, Ren made me cry once too. She has that effect, in a good way!
Her heartfelt words (which I've attached below) reached my inner
child, let me have a good cry, and in the 6 months since have started
me on a journey that has allowed me an incredible amount of healing
on both the issues of TV & forgiving my mother.
Thanks again Ren!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/23808
In addition, I think the experience of my childhood has made spending
time with my children such a priority. It doesn't matter what we do
during the day. We can go somewhere new and exciting, we can meet new
friends, or see old ones. But, when my husband comes home the first
thing my 4 y/o daughter tells him about, the obvious highlight of her
day, is when her and I have undivided playtime on my son's nap.
Kendrah:)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
desire to create that sort of dynamic for my girls, and yet I know my energy around the thing isn't completely clear either. I guess the main thing is that I'm aware of it and I'm open to having it shift so I don't pass it on.
Usually when the girls ask to watch something I put it on and go get something, anything (!) done, but yesterday the girls asked to watch a Thomas the Train movie I bought recently and I wanted to watch it with them to see the content so we snuggled on the couch and ended up having the nicest time together all under a blanket - I even ended up getting in a much needed nap! :o) So the reframing process has begun.
I am continuing to marvel at how this journey is SO not just for the kids. I am doing SO much learning and growing since we took the plunge into unschooling. I'm such a believer now that this is the way our family is meant to operate - we are totally on purpose now :o).
Thanks again so much for all the support, it means alot to me to have an avenue to ask questions and get feedback, especially because my dh isn't quite as on board with all this as I am. Does anyone have any suggestions for websites, avenues, etc. that would help him "see the light"? :o))) There is such a difference in the flow during the day and then after he comes home it is slightly more restricted because he doesn't really understand what we're doing. I've tried to talk with him, but quite honestly, he would hear it much better if it was coming from someone else. I know Alfie Kohn is coming to our city soon, so I'd like to take him to that, but any more suggestions???
Jodi
Kendrah Nilsestuen <carebear-79@...> wrote:
<<Thank you so much Ren for your compassionate email. It made me cry
actually
(doesn't take much these days :o))>>
Yeah, Ren made me cry once too. She has that effect, in a good way!
Her heartfelt words (which I've attached below) reached my inner
child, let me have a good cry, and in the 6 months since have started
me on a journey that has allowed me an incredible amount of healing
on both the issues of TV & forgiving my mother.
Thanks again Ren!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/23808
In addition, I think the experience of my childhood has made spending
time with my children such a priority. It doesn't matter what we do
during the day. We can go somewhere new and exciting, we can meet new
friends, or see old ones. But, when my husband comes home the first
thing my 4 y/o daughter tells him about, the obvious highlight of her
day, is when her and I have undivided playtime on my son's nap.
Kendrah:)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
emmakania
Hi
Thanks for all your replies. I think she does genuinely enjoy doing
them as she liked them before she went to school. I think i will go
with Dory's idea of leaving her some workbooks out
so that if she does genuinely want to do them she can and she can do
as much or as little as she wants. But it will be up to her whether
she does them or not.
Many thanks
Emma
www.myunschoolingjourney.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "Dory" <carzmom2000@...>
wrote:
Thanks for all your replies. I think she does genuinely enjoy doing
them as she liked them before she went to school. I think i will go
with Dory's idea of leaving her some workbooks out
so that if she does genuinely want to do them she can and she can do
as much or as little as she wants. But it will be up to her whether
she does them or not.
Many thanks
Emma
www.myunschoolingjourney.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "Dory" <carzmom2000@...>
wrote:
>
> --- Hi Emma! I would just leave the workbooks somewhere available
> for her to get them when she feels like doing them. That's one way
> that she prefers to learn, so why not encourage it? If you leave
> them somewhere she can get to them, she makes the choice when to do
> them or not! dory
>
>
Ren Allen
~~It was seen as 'evil' in the church I grew up in,
something that was implied that Jesus would never do. Now I believe
that's a load of malarky, but I bought into it for a long time, AND,
because it was so forbidden, watched very compulsively and addictively
every chance I got, then got my own when I was around 30 (when I left
the church), and watched for a few years straight until I got bored
with it. ~~
Did we grow up in the same church?? Geez!:) Sounds just like my
experience. Took some years before I realized I'd been brainwashed (in
many ways).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
something that was implied that Jesus would never do. Now I believe
that's a load of malarky, but I bought into it for a long time, AND,
because it was so forbidden, watched very compulsively and addictively
every chance I got, then got my own when I was around 30 (when I left
the church), and watched for a few years straight until I got bored
with it. ~~
Did we grow up in the same church?? Geez!:) Sounds just like my
experience. Took some years before I realized I'd been brainwashed (in
many ways).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Melissa
We just had a serious discussion with some family friends not more
than two hours ago about this and junk food.
Sigh.
Let's just say their kids like our house a LOT. And I don't see a
happy future when they move out of their own.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (9), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (2)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
than two hours ago about this and junk food.
Sigh.
Let's just say their kids like our house a LOT. And I don't see a
happy future when they move out of their own.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (9), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (2)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Dec 21, 2007, at 8:17 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
> ~~It was seen as 'evil' in the church I grew up in,
> something that was implied that Jesus would never do. Now I believe
> that's a load of malarky, but I bought into it for a long time, AND,
> because it was so forbidden, watched very compulsively and addictively
> every chance I got, then got my own when I was around 30 (when I left
> the church), and watched for a few years straight until I got bored
> with it. ~~
>
> Did we grow up in the same church?? Geez!:) Sounds just like my
> experience. Took some years before I realized I'd been brainwashed (in
> many ways).
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
I've actually met a few people who grew up in the same church, and it's been most interesting to compare notes! I especially liked knowing that for others it was quite a process of depropramming too. What was your church? Right away when I read that it sounds like your experience I let out a sigh of relief - it helps so much to know that others have grown up in something rigid and have successfully made the transition to an unschooling lifestyle. Often when I'm with my girls these days my memory flashes back to times when I was with families when I was part of the church and thought, wow, am I ever glad I know a better way!!!
Thanks for your support, I need lots right now. I feel very alone in my circle, in my city, I really haven't met anyone else who is truly unschooling. All the places I used to go - playroom/coffee hangouts, etc. seem to be full of moms and dads whose language to their kids makes me cringe, and who are doing things so differently than we're trying to do! I want to surround myself with other like-minded people, but that hasn't happened yet. There is such pressure out there to just do things the way most people have always done them - I even had one mom glomp onto something I said today and she started "educating" me about the right preschool for my girls!!! All I said was a break would be nice, and she thought I meant I was ready to ship them off for 5 mornings a week.
I'm reading Naomi Aldort's book right now "Raising our Children Raising Ourselves" and it's really helping me to move through some of the old stuff that keeps me from being 100% with my girls of the way I'd like to be - stuff that I thought I'd worked through but as soon as I had kids there it was again at another level, yikes. Raising my girls the way that was shown to me and sending them off to school to have someone else take them on would be SO the easy way out for me, I really see that, but I would be so filled with regret because I do know a better way for them. I really feel like it may perhaps be a bit of a sacrifice, but what a gift to them (I wish I'd been given the gift of unschooling!!!).
I am so glad I was led to John Holt's books and then on to so much other help from there, which includes this email group, really the first time I've had the chance to have conversation with other unschoolers. I also read Rue Kream's book and LOVED it.
Jodi
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~It was seen as 'evil' in the church I grew up in,
something that was implied that Jesus would never do. Now I believe
that's a load of malarky, but I bought into it for a long time, AND,
because it was so forbidden, watched very compulsively and addictively
every chance I got, then got my own when I was around 30 (when I left
the church), and watched for a few years straight until I got bored
with it. ~~
Did we grow up in the same church?? Geez!:) Sounds just like my
experience. Took some years before I realized I'd been brainwashed (in
many ways).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for your support, I need lots right now. I feel very alone in my circle, in my city, I really haven't met anyone else who is truly unschooling. All the places I used to go - playroom/coffee hangouts, etc. seem to be full of moms and dads whose language to their kids makes me cringe, and who are doing things so differently than we're trying to do! I want to surround myself with other like-minded people, but that hasn't happened yet. There is such pressure out there to just do things the way most people have always done them - I even had one mom glomp onto something I said today and she started "educating" me about the right preschool for my girls!!! All I said was a break would be nice, and she thought I meant I was ready to ship them off for 5 mornings a week.
I'm reading Naomi Aldort's book right now "Raising our Children Raising Ourselves" and it's really helping me to move through some of the old stuff that keeps me from being 100% with my girls of the way I'd like to be - stuff that I thought I'd worked through but as soon as I had kids there it was again at another level, yikes. Raising my girls the way that was shown to me and sending them off to school to have someone else take them on would be SO the easy way out for me, I really see that, but I would be so filled with regret because I do know a better way for them. I really feel like it may perhaps be a bit of a sacrifice, but what a gift to them (I wish I'd been given the gift of unschooling!!!).
I am so glad I was led to John Holt's books and then on to so much other help from there, which includes this email group, really the first time I've had the chance to have conversation with other unschoolers. I also read Rue Kream's book and LOVED it.
Jodi
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~It was seen as 'evil' in the church I grew up in,
something that was implied that Jesus would never do. Now I believe
that's a load of malarky, but I bought into it for a long time, AND,
because it was so forbidden, watched very compulsively and addictively
every chance I got, then got my own when I was around 30 (when I left
the church), and watched for a few years straight until I got bored
with it. ~~
Did we grow up in the same church?? Geez!:) Sounds just like my
experience. Took some years before I realized I'd been brainwashed (in
many ways).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]