cocoandmia

Interesting how ever since I started learning about Unschooling
situations arise where I wonder how to best handle it. I had a bunch of
them, hopefully they'll come back as I write them.

First with regards to rules vs. principles. . .I get it. I think.
Especially when older children are concerned, BUT how can there be
absolutely no "rules" with smaller children? I have a 5 year-old and a
14 month-old. My 5 year-old nephew was over yesterday and he and my
older daughter were playing, running around the house . . .I caught
myself reminding them to not play with doors. Meaning, while they're
playing and running, I don't want doors being shut for fear of catching
fingers. There's no way to make this safe that I can think of, thus a
"rule" of no shutting doors during play. Now, I can say, "Well, it's
not a rule, it's negotiating. . .running is ok as long as you don't shut
doors." Isn't that just semantics? In the end, it is a rule. Now
granted, there's no consequence to "breaking" the rule such as time out,
but it may very well end the game (part of the negotiation). Am I wrong
in concluding that with younger children there are a few "rules" that
may be necessary to cultivate principles?

Second, today I took my kids to the park and were joined by one of her
friends. We were parked side by side. Upon leaving, the kids jumped
into my van then went into my friend's van where her daughter offered my
daughter a stick of gum. My daughter told her she wanted 2, but her
friend only wanted to give 1. The friend's 4 year-old brother gave my
daughter a 2nd stick of gum against his sister's wishes, at which time,
my daughter high-tailed it back into our van, leaving her friend
hysterical. The brother had a change of heart as he jumped into my van
forcefully taking back the 2nd stick of gum, leaving the stick mangled.
His sister, although grateful at having gotten back her gum, was still
hysterical because now she couldn't put it back into the sleeve in the
pack. Hence, she demanded my daughter take the mangled stick and give
back the in tact one. My daughter didn't want the mangled one. At the
time, I thought the friend had given her 2, changed her mind, my
daughter didn't want to give back the 2nd one, which got mangled when
the brother took it back, and now wanted the in tact one back (history
supports this conclusion). Her mother, also aware of history, assumed
the same, stepped in, forcefully removed her daughter from my van,
threatened with spanking and almost threw away the entire pack of gum to
get her daughter to stop crying.

I realize that despite how quickly everything transpired, the entire
thing could have been avoided if I had been there right next to my
daughter the whole time (not talking with my friend or putting the baby
in the car seat). But I wasn't there, so my question is this? Let's
say the situation had been handled differently and after talking it out
we had all realized what we all now know, but my daughter still refused
to give back the gum? Do I take it away from her to give back to her
friend? How do you handle a situation where your child takes something
from someone who wants it back, but doesn't despite attempts to reason?

Cristina





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "cocoandmia" <cristina-
pertierra@...> wrote:
>
>
> Interesting how ever since I started learning about Unschooling
> situations arise where I wonder how to best handle it.

How about approaching situations with the intent that all involved
can have their needs and wants met. That changes with each
situation.

My daughters 4.5 and 3 both wanted the same lip gloss- Older one got
another lip gloss hoping to trade her siter who yelled no. I stepped
in and asked to hold both lip gloss- I held up the 2nd one and the
little one took it and the older one took the one she orignally
wanted. BOTH got their needs met though not in the conventional way
which would have had me giving the disputed one to the little one
and making the older sister take the new one but it was solved in
their own way.

The door "principle" would be safety- they need to choose to not
slam the door when someone is chasing them but sometimes when my
husband is chasing me around the house I close to door to slow him
down. It is a fun game. Maybe just explaining that if it gets closed
on someones fingers it will hurt or heads or legs. Prop the doors
open so that they are less easy to close or something

A lot of times I ask my daughters what they need or want in a
situation. After hearing each other they or we come up with ways
to "work it out".

Sometimes I step in too soon and my daughter says "mom we are
working it out" so I step back and let them follow the process.

It took months of me contantly says "lets find a way to work it out"
and finding ways to help everyone get what they want.


I had a bunch of
> them, hopefully they'll come back as I write them.
>
> First with regards to rules vs. principles. . .I get it. I think.
> Especially when older children are concerned, BUT how can there be
> absolutely no "rules" with smaller children? I have a 5 year-old
and a
> 14 month-old. My 5 year-old nephew was over yesterday and he and
my
> older daughter were playing, running around the house . . .I caught
> myself reminding them to not play with doors. Meaning, while
they're
> playing and running, I don't want doors being shut for fear of
catching
> fingers. There's no way to make this safe that I can think of,
thus a
> "rule" of no shutting doors during play. Now, I can say, "Well,
it's
> not a rule, it's negotiating. . .running is ok as long as you
don't shut
> doors." Isn't that just semantics? In the end, it is a rule. Now
> granted, there's no consequence to "breaking" the rule such as
time out,
> but it may very well end the game (part of the negotiation). Am I
wrong
> in concluding that with younger children there are a few "rules"
that
> may be necessary to cultivate principles?
>
> Second, today I took my kids to the park and were joined by one of
her
> friends. We were parked side by side. Upon leaving, the kids
jumped
> into my van then went into my friend's van where her daughter
offered my
> daughter a stick of gum. My daughter told her she wanted 2, but
her
> friend only wanted to give 1. The friend's 4 year-old brother
gave my
> daughter a 2nd stick of gum against his sister's wishes, at which
time,
> my daughter high-tailed it back into our van, leaving her friend
> hysterical. The brother had a change of heart as he jumped into
my van
> forcefully taking back the 2nd stick of gum, leaving the stick
mangled.
> His sister, although grateful at having gotten back her gum, was
still
> hysterical because now she couldn't put it back into the sleeve in
the
> pack. Hence, she demanded my daughter take the mangled stick and
give
> back the in tact one. My daughter didn't want the mangled one.
At the
> time, I thought the friend had given her 2, changed her mind, my
> daughter didn't want to give back the 2nd one, which got mangled
when
> the brother took it back, and now wanted the in tact one back
(history
> supports this conclusion). Her mother, also aware of history,
assumed
> the same, stepped in, forcefully removed her daughter from my van,
> threatened with spanking and almost threw away the entire pack of
gum to
> get her daughter to stop crying.
>
> I realize that despite how quickly everything transpired, the
entire
> thing could have been avoided if I had been there right next to my
> daughter the whole time (not talking with my friend or putting the
baby
> in the car seat). But I wasn't there, so my question is this?
Let's
> say the situation had been handled differently and after talking
it out
> we had all realized what we all now know, but my daughter still
refused
> to give back the gum? Do I take it away from her to give back to
her
> friend? How do you handle a situation where your child takes
something
> from someone who wants it back, but doesn't despite attempts to
reason?
>
> Cristina
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ulrike Haupt

Rules and principles

I have a four year old daughter and I posed the bubblegum question to her: If you want many bubblegum sticks and someone only gives you one, what do you do? Answer: I'll get money and buy myself some more.

That the friend even gave your daughter one bubblegum stick, shows me she likes to share. Having to give more than she was prepared to makes a child loath to do so next time and forcing her to share perpetrates her sense of ownership. YOU don't like others telling you what to do with your stuff. Children have as much a right to decide what to do with their property as you do. Learning to accept a no is part of life. Learning how to handle it with grace is what you can teach your children by example.

Regarding rules and principles, my mom and I talked about that and came to the obvious conclusion that rules grow out of principles. The principle of not hurting each other, taking care of each other, and being considerate of others needs may result in the rule of not slamming doors when fingers could be caught in them. The rule of not fighting at the table stems from the principle that stress while eating results in indigestion..
The trick is not to make rules for the sake of having them, but to understand the principles behind them.

I've enjoyed this extremly and thank my mom for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this discussion.

Charlotte
daughter of Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], "cocoandmia" <cristina-
pertierra@...> wrote:
>
>
> First with regards to rules vs. principles. . .I get it. I think.
> Especially when older children are concerned, BUT how can there be
> absolutely no "rules" with smaller children? I have a 5 year-old
>and a
> 14 month-old.

Why would "rules" be necessary? There's a difference between the
physical practical result of a principle and a rule, though it may
look the same - just like unschooling might on occasion look like
schooling if a particular individual child wants to explore using a
workbook for something. Looks the same, very different underneath.
Thus, when DS was 2, we absolutely always held hands in a parking
lot. It wasn't a rule - it was the safe thing to do. I knew it, he
knew it. And, in the process, a few things developed: (1) he held my
hand not vice versa - though I always had his wrist in my grasp in
case of emergency, his hand had the "upper hand" literally (2) we'd
skip or hop or swing hands, generally enjoyable, close, affectionate
type stuff (3) he's 9 now and still prefers to hold my hand most of
the time, even on sidewalks, just because it's fun to be close.
Sometimes, I'll put my arm around his shoulders instead of holding
hands. (4) and sometimes he walks freely on his own across a parking
lot now - he has the info that white lights mean a car is backing
up - watch out - and all the other info an adult might have for the
situation. The thing is, we never had to change the "rule" as he
grew older. The practical aspect of the principle changed in
appearance but the principle never changed.

This is just one example but maybe it'll help clarify things a
little (or not - I think I need another cup of coffee to get me
going after lunch)...

--Deb