Zoa Conner

I just read Danielle's article on principles vs. rule. Now I am wondering -
from those of you who have made this switch fully - which principles are
relevant for your households? Would anyone mind sharing?
----------------
Zoa Conner, PhD
Physicist and Montessori Homeschooling Mother
zoaconner@...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Zoa Conner <zoaconner@...>

I just read Danielle's article on principles vs. rule. Now I am
wondering -
from those of you who have made this switch fully - which principles are
relevant for your households? Would anyone mind sharing?

-=-=-=-=--=

Kindness
Generosity
Patience
Trust
Respect for ourselves and others
Gentleness with animals
Thoughtfulness
Safety
Honesty
Flexibility
Courtesy
Gratefulness
Empathy

There may be some others, but these jumped out of my head immediately.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org



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Adrean Clark

How do you implement those principles?

I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, "don't hit,
use your words!" and they still whack each other.

My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
comparison to him yet he's grabbing their stuff. DS is still going
through deschooling, so is it related to destressing from school? Or is
it he is jealous of them?

--Adrean

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>

I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, "don't
hit,
use your words!" and they still whack each other.

-=-=-=-=-

"We are kind and gentle with each other."

"It's my job to make sure *each and every ONE* of you feels safe in
this house."

And you need to be close by. Why are they left alone long enough for
things to escalate to punching?

Sandra told her boys there are three steps:

1) talk it out
2) if that doesn't work, get an adult to help you work it out
3) if that doesn't work, you can hit each other

BUT! They have to go through steps one and two FIRST! <G>

-=-=-=-=-=-

My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
comparison to him yet he's grabbing their stuff.

-=-=-=-=-

Was he made to share with his younger siblings? Is he allowed to have
things that are his and his alone?

-=-=-=-=-

DS is still going through deschooling, so is it related to destressing
from school?

-=-=-=-

Maybe---is this new behavior?

-=-=-=-=-

Or is it he is jealous of them?

-=-=-=-=-

Does he have reason to be?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
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Adrean Clark

I have the same policy for them, #1 talk it out, #2 ask mom for help.
As for leaving them alone, that annoys me to no end because no parent
ever is right there supervising their children eyeball to eyeball 24/7.
The moment I look away somebody comes up to me saying he hit me! I am
so irritated and frustrated with them about that.

One time the oldest punched one of his twin brothers in the nose so hard
it bled. We were in the van driving back home from school and I normally
have my rearview mirror planted square on them, but this time I
concentrated on traffic until I saw the tussle in the back. I
immediately pulled over and told DS to get out of the van. He asked if I
was going to leave him, I said no. He had to stay and wait while I
cleaned up his brother. I told him that I can't allow him back in if
he's going to be a danger to his brother. I let him back in after he
apologized and after he answered affirmatively my question of whether
he's going to be safe with his brothers.

I still feel angry over this. I've tried explaining things over and over
and I did the same #1 #2 policy in my own accord. It's not working.

I feel angry about oldest DS's tendency to take things away from his
twin brothers. It's constant competition and jealousy and I do NOT want
this for them. I want peace in my house. :(

Ok venting over - I think the big issue here is that I'm Deaf and they
do not sign when they're quarreling. So how can I intervene when I can't
catch when things are escalating? (Why my children don't sign all the
time is a long story and something I wish did not happen.) Often oldest
DS says one of his (4 yr old) brothers has said something that he
disagreed with and I ask him if whacking him solved the problem.

I think the issue here is that he's outnumbered - the twins are close to
each other and he's alone. We also have a lot of things shared in
common. He's had "his" things before but as the twins grow into his
stuff things get a little mixed up. He grabs their things as well.

I'm guessing a solution would be to establish separate toy bins for each
boy and have their names on them, and separate items for each of them?
This way they can have true ownership and feel free to share... And
instead of doing the steps which aren't working, I would try the "we are
kind to each other" tack. Any more suggestions?

--Adrean

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 22, 2007, at 5:37 PM, Adrean Clark wrote:

> I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, "don't
> hit,
> use your words!" and they still whack each other.

Apparently they need more help. You're seeing the world through your
eyes and wondering why they can't too. See the world through their eyes.

Assume they're doing the best they can. The advice you're giving them
obviously is not working for them to solve the problem. If I'd kept
asking my sister to give something to me when we were kids and she
wouldn't .. then what? If mom said only use words and didn't give me
a tool to use after the words had failed it would be maddening. I'd
want to smack her! ;-) What other choice would I have when the only
tool she'd given me had failed?

Sandra Dodd had 3 steps:

1) talk it out
2) get an adult to help
3) then hit

She has a lot of good writing at:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

Also you need to be present more. Mindful parenting isn't a list of
rules to hand to kids and send them off with. Be their partner in
helping them get what they want. Rather than seeing situations as
something to fix, figure out ways to *help* them get what they want.
It's a subtle but important role shift.

> My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
> annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
> comparison to him yet he's grabbing their stuff.

What you've written dismisses his feelings. He has a need and he's
trying to fulfill it and you're blowing off his need because they're
younger and he's older. That's not only maddening but whittling away
at your relationship with him. He sees you putting them ahead of him.

Separate his need from his actions. Don't dismiss his need just
because he doesn't have the tools to meet it. *Help* him meet it.

That's doesn't mean everyone will get what they want immediately. But
help them build trust in you that you will work hard to help
*everyone* get what they want.

The reason kids keep fighting over something they want is because
they've learned from past behavior that's the only way to get it.
Give them the confidence that their needs are important to you and
you will help them.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 22, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Adrean Clark wrote:

> As for leaving them alone, that annoys me to no end because no parent
> ever is right there supervising their children eyeball to eyeball
> 24/7.

The point isn't to see being with them as the one and only solution
but a way that will help eliminate a lot of it.

> The moment I look away somebody comes up to me saying he hit me!
> I am
> so irritated and frustrated with them about that.

Don't be irritated with them! See it as a cry for help. They don't
know what to do or how to solve the problem.

They're in a mindset that says "If I don't grab what I want then I'm
not going to be able to get it."

You need to help them out of that.

You're in a mindset that you need to stop the hitting. What will help
is looking past the hitting to what's causing the hitting. Obviously
stop the hitting but then focus on the problem. You're turning the
hitting into the problem and the original problem is probably getting
lost in the confusion. Focus on the original problem. Help them
figure out how to fix that. Help them know that you want to help
everyone get what they need *and* feel safe.

> I think the big issue here is that I'm Deaf and they
> do not sign when they're quarreling. So how can I intervene when I
> can't
> catch when things are escalating?

Can he sit up front with you? Don't impose it as a rule. Use it as a
way to help him not hurt them. Tell him you need help in figuring out
how to keep everyone safe.

Sandra Dodd told her kids that if she hit someone that she'd be
arrested. It's not legally okay to hit. (That is *not* issued as a
threat. It's just a fact.) Tell him you want to help him figure out
ways to solve problems because hitting's not going to help him at all
when he's an adult.

Rather than focusing on changing them from kids who hit to kids who
don't hit, help them find ways not to hit. When they hit it's a cry
for help. They really don't know what else to do. Telling them not to
is obviously not working.

Focus on what led up to the hitting. If it's toys they're fighting
over, help them figure out ahead of time ways to not fight over the
toys. Involve them all in helping solve the problem and listen to
their ideas. If the ideas don't pan out, help them revise them and
think up new ideas.

The transition period is rough. They're used to fighting to get their
needs met. They're going to hear your attempts at helping them
problem solve as just new ways to say "Stop hitting and fix this
problem now." It will take a while until they gain confidence that
you really are committed to helping them get what they want.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 22, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Adrean Clark wrote:

> would try the "we are
> kind to each other" tack.

Oops, meant to respond to that.

It's not true, though. Sometimes they aren't kind to each other.
Sometimes I bet you aren't kind to them. (I know I'm guilty!)

That's just imposing your principles on them. Use your principles to
help them solve their problems.

Try "I need everyone to feel safe in this house. How can we fix this
problem?"

Sometimes you'll need to pull one aside and let them tell you what
happened. Really listen to them. Don't think in terms of "Yeah, yeah,
BUT .."

If he's saying his brothers are pissing him off, then they're pissing
him off. Don't dismiss it. Often what people want to hear is "Yes, I
understand. That is frustrating." They *don't* want it followed by
BUT! You can, though, go on and talk about what he could have done
differently or could do next time.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

> Kindness
> Generosity
> Patience
> Trust
> Respect for ourselves and others
> Gentleness with animals
> Thoughtfulness
> Safety
> Honesty
> Flexibility
> Courtesy
> Gratefulness
> Empathy

Good list!

And, again, don't think of those as rules. You aren't going to *make*
your kids be thoughtful. It isn't a standard that you'll make them
live up to.

Be thoughtful toward them. You can also help them think up ways you
can both do something thoughtful for someone else who has done nice
things for you. (And if they don't want to, you do it because it's
important to you to be thoughtful. If you don't want to do it on your
own, you shouldn't be making them do it! Do it because you feel it's
the right thing to do, not because it's a lesson you want to impose
on your kids. *Live* your principles.)

Live these. Use these in your interactions with them and others. Help
them use them as tools to figure out problems. That's what they are:
tools to help us decide if something is in keeping with our philosophy.

Here's something I wrote a bit ago:

No right or wrong way to unschool
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling/noonerightwaytounschool.html

Joyce

Karen Swanay

On this topic, we are about to bring home a 3 yr old child from an
> orphanage in China. She has lived there for her whole life. She may have
> autism but we don't know. We do know she does not speak and she doesn't
> understand any English. (I shouldn't have to say that but many people think
> she knows English so I'm offering it.) I have two boys 11 and 9 yrs old and
> they know and already have a baby gate to put up in their door so that Xian
> Yi can't get in their room. That's where all their stuff is. We have
> already talked about what her level of control is going to be and how easily
> she will get frustrated. If they leave their stuff in the rest of the house
> it's going to be broken or taken by their little sister maybe. So they know
> if they want to keep it safe, it has to be kept where she can't get to it.
> They have been told this over and over. We've discussed this too. And they
> were actually used to the idea from having a puppy around. If they left
> their stuff around the puppy would chew it. So they are pretty good about
> not leaving it about when there is "danger" around. I think offering them
> sancutary from this little girl who may behave like a monkey on crack is the
> right way to go. I am not going to make them share their stuff with her.
> It's theirs and afterall I don't want my stuff broken and I'm not going to
> give my stuff to her, they shouldn't be forced to do the same.
>

Back to OP problem, can you corral the little ones? Give the big one some
safe and sacred space where he doesn't feel as though he has to fight them
off? I'm all for sharing, but both my kids, as my mother did with us, have
things they NEVER under any circumstances ever have to share with anyone. I
think it's important to have those few things that they can know are
theirs. Now, on good days, I often find them sharing those special things
willingly, but I don't "make" them share them. And when we have company
over, (since most other kids and parents don't understand why we do this) I
have them put those special things away and they like that. It's not that I
wouldn't go to bat and defend their right to withhold those items but they
would rather the kids coming in not even know they have said objects. So I
offer a space in my room where kids (visitors) are not allowed to go until
the kids leave and my boys can retrieve their stuff.

Perhaps you can ask your oldest child which things are the items he doesn't
want to have to share with his brothers and then get him a baby gate for the
door to his room. Move all the other crap (and most kids have toys they
have outgrown interest in) to where the younger kids have access. This may
be all you need to fix this issue.

As to the fighting and being deaf, I train service dogs, I have trained a
hearing dog to alert a parent when their kids were beginning to fight. If
you have a dog you could do that. Or you could get someone to do that for
you. That's an easy fix.

HTH,
Karen

>
>
>



--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
LOA 11/9/07
TA ?
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

I could do that. DS is getting some things like a guitar that will be
his alone. Other things like Legos, etc., I think would be unfair to
withhold from his brothers, esp because he has a 3 gallon+ box full of
them. I guess I would need to talk with him about it.

My parents bought a VTech for the twins (they said it was too good a
deal to pass up...) and I know DS will want to get his hands on it too.
I am hoping my sister will loan us a Nintendo DS so he won't feel the
need to grab from them.

I'll work on that space issue, have been thinking about segmentalizing
my office room so they all can have their own corners. What have you all
used for room "dividers"? We are in an apartment so can't really use
heavy duty stuff.

I already created a lot of space by having us all sleep in one room
(bunk beds, mattress on the floor, etc.) And the other rooms are the
playroom and my office. That "office" room can be split up in
subdivisons somehow. I like the way it is now, with our space defined
more by purpose instead of ownership. Lots of free floor room when we
keep it neat. :) Downside is the kids' fighting, so I better work on
creating some containers and corners for them.

The problem isn't just the noise with the fighting - it's catching what
they're saying before the fights happen. It drives me crazy that they
have had a lack of respectful language models. People who can sign talk
verbally with each other in front of me and my children follow their
example. I have asked them respectfully to sign without voicing so my
job would be easier, but they continue to ignore me. "I forgot," "it's a
habit," etc.

Communicating with my own children is very impt to me, and I've been
trying to work with them. I keep feeling like my efforts are undermined
- by the school system, by well-meaning relatives.

On my part I need to try harder in making the boys feel welcome in
sharing with me, so that they will want to be sure I'm included, and
that they will maybe have more appreciation of ASL.

I've been reading the pointers you all have shared--appreciate those
very much! Anyone have experience with having a second language at
home?
--Adrean

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>

I have the same policy for them, #1 talk it out, #2 ask mom for help.
As for leaving them alone, that annoys me to no end because no parent
ever is right there supervising their children eyeball to eyeball 24/7.
The moment I look away somebody comes up to me saying he hit me! I am
so irritated and frustrated with them about that.

-=-=-=-=-

Irritated and frustrated that someone came to you for help?

It's a small house, right? How far can you actually BE from them?

-=--=-=-=

One time the oldest punched one of his twin brothers in the nose so
hard
it bled. We were in the van driving back home from school and I
normally
have my rearview mirror planted square on them, but this time I
concentrated on traffic until I saw the tussle in the back. I
immediately pulled over and told DS to get out of the van. He asked if
I
was going to leave him, I said no.

-=-=-=-=-

Why would he ask that? Is that a real fear? Has he been told that
before? By anyone?

-=-=-=-=-

He had to stay and wait while I
cleaned up his brother. I told him that I can't allow him back in if
he's going to be a danger to his brother.

-=-=-=-=-

So it *is* a fear.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I let him back in after he
apologized and after he answered affirmatively my question of whether
he's going to be safe with his brothers.

-=-=-=-=-

Whether he's lying or not?

-=-=-=-=--

I still feel angry over this. I've tried explaining things over and
over
and I did the same #1 #2 policy in my own accord. It's not working.

-=-=-=-=-

Change the anger to curiosity.

WHY is it nor working?

-=-=-=-=-

I feel angry about oldest DS's tendency to take things away from his
twin brothers. It's constant competition and jealousy and I do NOT
want
this for them. I want peace in my house. :(

-=-=-=-=-

I know it sounds silly, but it's that zen thang:

BE the peace!

Why do they feel compettitive and jealous? What is causing that?

-=-=-=-=-

Ok venting over - I think the big issue here is that I'm Deaf and they
do not sign when they're quarreling. So how can I intervene when I
can't
catch when things are escalating? (Why my children don't sign all the
time is a long story and something I wish did not happen.)

-=-=-=-

Yeah---I keep forgetting you're deaf! <G>

They need to trust you're there to help them figure it out.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Often oldest DS says one of his (4 yr old) brothers has said something
that he
disagreed with and I ask him if whacking him solved the problem.

-=-=-=-

Yeah---but how is that helping them?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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Adrean Clark

> Irritated and frustrated that someone came to you for help?

I'd be fine with them coming up to me for help but I feel like on this
issue we have talked it into a morass, where no one seems to be
listening to each other and people are still getting hit.

I feel those emotions because we've gone through this over and over
again. "Please don't hit your brother, it hurts. When your brother is
done with the toy, you can have it. What time will you be done with
this toy? Let him have the toy, it is his turn. So what if your
brother said no over something that doesn't make sense? Does he have
control over that and does hitting him solve the problem?"

> It's a small house, right? How far can you actually BE from them?

I used to physically separate them into time-outs but since I hurt my
back and snapped my ACL I've been unable to get into the thick of things
without getting hurt myself. I have to yell to stop things from a
distance and even then it doesn't work. So I feel powerless too. :( I'm
laid up now, just finished with ACL reconstruction surgery.

> So it *is* a fear.
> Whether he's lying or not?

How could I have approached this situation better, then? There was blood
all over his brother's face and we were heading towards a construction
zone. They were fighting because the twin had said no and pouted over
something, both had been hitting on each other. There are real-world
consequences to beating up people - including lock-up. My thinking was,
remove the aggressor from the situation NOW. Then clean up and talk
about it. I am out of ideas if this only creates a revenge complex in
them :(

> Change the anger to curiosity.

It is difficult because I feel stumped on this. I've read the Siblings
Without Rivalry book, joined this list, consensual living, read all I
could and I'm still not getting it right.

> Why do they feel compettitive and jealous? What is causing that?

The bad old days I think. :( There were major power and control issues
going on in our home until DH and I separated abt 2 years ago. Since
then he's gone to counseling but DS has grown up in that environment and
I really want to change that.

> Yeah---but how is that helping them?

I thought it's help him see the futility of that option. It's difficult
if I'm out of ideas myself too. Maybe it'll be different after each of
them has their own space?

You know it just occurred that maybe because DS has more options
compared to the twins (one said recently, "I want to be homeschooled!")
and because DS tries to control them, they feel powerless. So they hold
onto "insignificant" things like toys or verbal comments because that's
where they feel like they have control. The twins are still in
preschool and my mother was just telling me about how the teacher needs
to keep order, etc. DS also probably feels powerless himself from when
he was in school.

I'm not perfect myself either, and the kids copy my mistakes. My
thinking is away from the "control kids" model but when things get
stressful I find my ideas and options narrowing down.

Let's take one difficult situation for example -

DS likes to sing in the van. I am unaware of this unless I see his mouth
moving and head bobbling. Singing does not bother me. Everything would
be fine and dandy if DS didn't insist he sings alone or has total
silence instead. The end result is usually a lot of drama. I don't
have a means for monitoring volume in the van.

Any suggestions on how to defuse this?
--Adrean

Debra Rossing

"Do no deliberate harm" is a basic principle - that applies to self,
others, animals, etc. Most other stuff comes out of that - respecting
other people's person, space, property; being kind; staying safe;
forgiving others when accidents happen; etc. And, it applies equally
regardless of age - we learned early on that DS just won't tolerate
arbitrary double standards - adults can do this but kids can't just
because the adults say so - but he quite understands (and has for a long
time, it's not just because he's now 9, this goes back to almost
toddlerhood) that there are some things that are not safe for him to do
or, at least, not safe for him to do alone, unassisted.

It's interesting now, to hear his feedback when we've spent time with
extended family - one SIL and her 4 yr old in particular. DS sees how
the arbitrary rules and micromanagement end up in rebellion and stress
and no one being happy (had a lovely - not- example of that this past
weekend with everyone gathered holiday-wise). He sometimes just does not
understand why people don't get the connection between arbitrary rules
and over managing kids and the behaviors that they get.

Deb

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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...>


It's interesting now, to hear his feedback when we've spent time with
extended family - one SIL and her 4 yr old in particular. DS sees how
the arbitrary rules and micromanagement end up in rebellion and stress
and no one being happy (had a lovely - not- example of that this past
weekend with everyone gathered holiday-wise). He sometimes just does not
understand why people don't get the connection between arbitrary rules
and over managing kids and the behaviors that they get.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah---I'm sure how many other families discuss "Parenting Skills" the
way we do around here. It's *often* a topic of conversation.

I think that a child who would question other parents' parenting
practices with his own parents must be comfortable enough with his own
parents. <g>

We have the Lovejoy Christmas next weekend (I'll be staying home, but
Ben'll take the boys there Whew! <g>). As soon as they get home, I'll
get the run-down about the "questionable parenting abilities" that they
witness while there.

It won't be anything new. Walking about in Wal-de-mart, the
Store-Which-Should-Not-Be-Named, will get the same questions.

The best thing is that I hope the boys will have so much less baggage
to unload before parenting their own babies. What a wonderful gift!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
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gvrcdkv

Hi Adrean,

I've read this entire thread, and I have some comments
(interspersed).

> The problem isn't just the noise with the fighting - it's catching
what
> they're saying before the fights happen. It drives me crazy that
they
> have had a lack of respectful language models. People who can sign
talk
> verbally with each other in front of me and my children follow
their
> example. I have asked them respectfully to sign without voicing
so my
> job would be easier, but they continue to ignore me. "I
forgot," "it's a
> habit," etc.

I recognize the issue here. You as a parent want to know what is
going on between your children. This is certainly valid. I am just
not sure you can illegalize voicing in your home. I mean this in
two ways. Firstly, I don't think this is possible. In the history
of deaf education there were many attempts to prevent deaf children
from using sign language and in spite of all this, the children
somehow still acquired sign language (against all odds), and used it
every chance they got with each other, because it was their most
comfortable language in certain circumstances. In the same way, if
you try to ban English in your home, it will not work. English is
too powerful a communication tool for people who use it to just drop
it to please someone else. From another angle, I don't think it
would be fair to ask your children not to speak to each other at all
in your presence. I don't think this is an ethical thing to do.
They are using the English, in spite of your requests, because it is
the most comfortable language for them in certain circumstances.
Think about how much of their lives happen in English. You cannot
change this. Are you prepared to illegalize television, books, and
access to all hearing people? So much of what they know they
learned from sources other than you. These things came to them in
English, so it is hard for them to translate ALL of their
experiences into another language 24/7 for the benefit of someone
else.

I don't mean to seem callous. I understand your problem. I sign
fluently and my husband and daugher are deaf. My husband is from a
Deaf signing family. I also have two hearing children. We are all
bilingual. Sometimes we hearing members sign to each other for fun
when my husband is not even there... sometimes, we speak to each
other in his presence. We are a bilingual family. We code switch.
This happens naturally depending on the situation. My husband does
not try to regulate language, and for this reason, because they are
not forced to translate, I see my children sometimes translating
voluntarily for my husband because they love him so much, and
understand his perspective, and want to include him. Other times,
they sign becuase they need his help with something. Sometimes I
tell my husband what they are saying to each other in English...
Sometimes I am too busy, and he has to try to figure it out for
himself, or ask, or let it go.

I belive humans instinctually use their communication skills to
accomplish their own goals. I don't think it would be right to use
one's power to limit someone else's language use for one's own
purposes. In your case, granted, your purpose is to be an on the
job mom, and this is obviously an important goal. However, I think
that you could accidentally push your children away from you and
sign language if you push your children towards it so agressively.
If you go by the idea of principles, then perhaps a nice principle
would be something like "we try to understand each other better" ,
or something like that, and work from there. When I say work from
there, i don't mean that you require them to sign. I mean that you
try to show them that you are trying to understand them as best you
can using the tools available to you. You have to model this, and
be patient with your children as they learn this new way.

Your problem is not unique to deafness. This is a very common issue
in the bilingual houses of immigrants whose children master English
faster than their parents. Very often, then children speak to each
other in English, and speak some combination of their two languages
with their parents. Bilingual research and theory has shown that
there are periods of language mixing in children growing up
bilingual, and that gradually, they learn which language matches
which circumstance. Children need time with this. You
can't "require" language skills; they are developed over time, with
motivation.

I don't see them needing to sign to each other. They have the right
to communicate amongst themselves. If they have a problem and need
you, or if you join the conversation, it may be that there is reason
for them to sign too, or instead (if they are able to do this). As
long as they are signing, what is the problem if they voice too?..
if this makes the language more meaningful to them in some way. I
realize that doing both at the same time creates linguistic
problems... but isn't the idea to communicate, and not to be
perfect? In some circumstances, such as Deaf schools, or Deaf
service agencies, the personnel are required to sign at all times.
I believe this is appropriate, because language use and modeling are
made part of the job description. Those who don't or can't comply
are sometimes fired. But.. in a family, you can't fire your
children. You have to try to understand them, and as they are able,
they will begin to have the ability to understand your perspective
too. I believe that you have to let go of this form of control.
Their language skills are their own, and if they speak English and
you do not, then this is an inconvenience that you as the adult have
to work around in some way. They cannot be held responsible for
this. You want them to be all they can be. Their experience, and
needs are not the same as yours.
>
> Communicating with my own children is very impt to me, and I've
been
> trying to work with them. I keep feeling like my efforts are
undermined
> - by the school system, by well-meaning relatives.
>
> On my part I need to try harder in making the boys feel welcome in
> sharing with me, so that they will want to be sure I'm included,
and
> that they will maybe have more appreciation of ASL.


Exactly. I think you have hit the nail on the head here. If they
feel like they benefit from having you included in the
conversations, then they will include you. Because you do not use
English in the way they do, you are not in a position to force your
own participation. In a way, this may be an advantage from an
unschooling perspective. You will have to convince them of the value
of having you involved. Really, we all have to do this, even when
there is only one language used in the family. Otherwise, we may
talk to our children, but they wouldn't be listening, and they may
talk to us, but it may not be the truth. Communication is built on
respect, and this respect has to be modeled by the parents. I think
that you should put the issue of which language to use on hold, and
work on the content of the message. If the content works for them,
then they will make sure that the message gets accross because they
will need you. What would happen if you apologized for trying to
control their language use, and told them that you wish to find a
way to help them in any way you can with whatever they need, and
that you are a little concerned about missing things, but that you
want them to know that you are available when they need you. Then
try to live with this for a while... I wonder if just this wouldn't
change things for the better. You are their mom. They definitely
need you. They'll come.
>
> I've been reading the pointers you all have shared--appreciate
those
> very much! Anyone have experience with having a second language
at
> home?

> --Adrean

I have a couple more things to say, and sorry to be so long. There
are ways you can compensate for not hearing what's going on with the
children. In our house, we use vibrating sound detectors. When my
husband is solely responsible for the children, he wears a vibrating
pager which is activated when the noise level goes up. If you do
move, consider a place with an open floor plan( ie.. more space and
less walls). Make sure that the children can "get" you when they
need you. Let them benefit from the technology too. There are also
vibrating pagers activated by handheld buttons. We have this too
and it worked very well when I was nursing the baby and needed to
call my husband from the other room for something. We set another
one up in the living room, so that they could call him by flashing a
light in the kitchen.

Sign language is a beautiful and complete language, but many deaf
people experience a language barrier when it comes to English and
the world of sound. If you were deaf as a child, then it was the
responsibility of the adults in your life to ease this barrier for
you in some way, and take on the bulk of the responsibility for
communication, while you were still learning. Now you are the
adult, and it is your responsibility to take on the communication
issues faced by your family and come up with creative solutions.
You cannot place this burden on the shoulders of your children. If
you try to make it as easy as possible for your children to
communicate with you, then they probably will pick of the rest of
the slack as best they can. Maybe you can enlist the help of family
members (relatives or friends) in some way. Your children do not
speak English in the home due to the bad influence of your
relatives. They speak because they can hear... it comes very
naturally for them... just as signing comes naturally to many Deaf
people. Good luck, and I wish the absolute best to you and your
children in your unschooling journey.

Respectfully,

Carolyn


>

kel9769

> I feel those emotions because we've gone through this over and over
> again. "Please don't hit your brother, it hurts. When your brother
is
> done with the toy, you can have it. What time will you be done with
> this toy? Let him have the toy, it is his turn. So what if your
> brother said no over something that doesn't make sense? Does he have
> control over that and does hitting him solve the problem?"
>
> --Adrean
>

Hi Adrean
I have an idea that may be helpful. I only have one child so I am
dealing with different struggles but my daughter volunteers at a
democratic free school for younger children and they have a good
policy for dealing with arguments. Anyone can call a meeting any time
they feel something is unfair and they talk about it together until
they all agree to a solution. They have worked out very specific
guidleines for play fighting so they can tussle and no one gets hurt
(very much anyway). They also have worked out how to share by
agreeing to a time limit on the prime toys. I think the basic idea is
everyone being in agreement with limitations becuase they value the
benifits. If each boy knows he is really "heard" then over time he
will become more willing to see the others point of view and make
comprimises willingly. It takes a lot of practice though.

I am definitely still working on it with my daughter. For every time
I deal with a situation thoughtfully and calmly there are probably
two times that I said No or yelled without thinking it through
first. Keep up the good fight : )
Kelly