Guidance without guilt (crosspost)
Marla B.
I know I've been unschooling for several years, but I still don't feel
that I'm succeeding with guiding my kids without guilt. For example,
my 4-yo.(who still nurses and co-sleeps) can give other kids a hard
time, especially if they really want to play with her. There is this
one 3-yo. in our homeschool group (still haven't found any fellow
unschoolers in our area, though I've posted on several sites) loves
our 4-yo. However, our 4-yo. tells her that she doesn't want to be
friends with her and hurts the 3-yo.s feelings. I feel caught in the
middle of respecting my 4-yo.s wishes of playing with someone else and
helping the 3-yo. feel better and guiding my 4-yo. in how to make and
keep friends. Also, because we are the only radical unschoolers in
the group, I know the sentiment is to force sharing and playing
together, etc. and not respect an individual's needs.
I told the mother of the 3yo. that I struggle to balance the feelings
of others with the needs of my children. That a 4-yo. isn't
necessarily capable of thinking of how their actions affect others.
They just want their needs met now. I remember once listening to Naomi
Aldort talk about another mother complaining that one of her son's
wasn't polite because he wouldn't read a book to her child. Naomi
said that he was just telling her child that he wasn't interested in
reading to him and that that was o.k. But general society says that
that is rude.
I also know that I still get stuck on the word "respect" and how do I
help my children become respectful if all the work I do modeling and
treating them with respect isn't working (my 8-yo. for the most part
has gradually become a respectful child though she still loses it on
occasion, as do I -lol)? Or are my expectations of my 4-yo. too high?
Thanks for the input!
Marla Mom to Amy (8 yo.) and Lily (4 yo.)
that I'm succeeding with guiding my kids without guilt. For example,
my 4-yo.(who still nurses and co-sleeps) can give other kids a hard
time, especially if they really want to play with her. There is this
one 3-yo. in our homeschool group (still haven't found any fellow
unschoolers in our area, though I've posted on several sites) loves
our 4-yo. However, our 4-yo. tells her that she doesn't want to be
friends with her and hurts the 3-yo.s feelings. I feel caught in the
middle of respecting my 4-yo.s wishes of playing with someone else and
helping the 3-yo. feel better and guiding my 4-yo. in how to make and
keep friends. Also, because we are the only radical unschoolers in
the group, I know the sentiment is to force sharing and playing
together, etc. and not respect an individual's needs.
I told the mother of the 3yo. that I struggle to balance the feelings
of others with the needs of my children. That a 4-yo. isn't
necessarily capable of thinking of how their actions affect others.
They just want their needs met now. I remember once listening to Naomi
Aldort talk about another mother complaining that one of her son's
wasn't polite because he wouldn't read a book to her child. Naomi
said that he was just telling her child that he wasn't interested in
reading to him and that that was o.k. But general society says that
that is rude.
I also know that I still get stuck on the word "respect" and how do I
help my children become respectful if all the work I do modeling and
treating them with respect isn't working (my 8-yo. for the most part
has gradually become a respectful child though she still loses it on
occasion, as do I -lol)? Or are my expectations of my 4-yo. too high?
Thanks for the input!
Marla Mom to Amy (8 yo.) and Lily (4 yo.)
Momma
---I also know that I still get stuck on the word "respect" and how do I
help my children become respectful if all the work I do modeling and
treating them with respect isn't working (my 8-yo. for the most part
has gradually become a respectful child though she still loses it on
occasion, as do I -lol)? Or are my expectations of my 4-yo. too high?
Thanks for the input!
Marla Mom to Amy (8 yo.) and Lily (4 yo.)
It may help to remember that respect and courtesy are two different things. I would like my children to be courteous to everyone they meet and I try to model that every day but repect is a completely different animal. Respect is like love, it is something you *feel* for someone else. You respect them for a reason. Respect is earned. How can you respect someone you don't know well, or someone you don't like for some reason? Respect can not be forced any more than love can. It is a gradual thing that you begin to feel for someone after knowing them for awhile. If you don't have respect for someone isn't there a reason? You can't expect your daughter to feel the deep respect that you feel for her towards other people, but you can talk to her about courtesy and nice words and others feelings.
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help my children become respectful if all the work I do modeling and
treating them with respect isn't working (my 8-yo. for the most part
has gradually become a respectful child though she still loses it on
occasion, as do I -lol)? Or are my expectations of my 4-yo. too high?
Thanks for the input!
Marla Mom to Amy (8 yo.) and Lily (4 yo.)
It may help to remember that respect and courtesy are two different things. I would like my children to be courteous to everyone they meet and I try to model that every day but repect is a completely different animal. Respect is like love, it is something you *feel* for someone else. You respect them for a reason. Respect is earned. How can you respect someone you don't know well, or someone you don't like for some reason? Respect can not be forced any more than love can. It is a gradual thing that you begin to feel for someone after knowing them for awhile. If you don't have respect for someone isn't there a reason? You can't expect your daughter to feel the deep respect that you feel for her towards other people, but you can talk to her about courtesy and nice words and others feelings.
AubreyRecent Activity
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Adrean Clark
We've been officially unschooling my oldest for almost 2 weeks now.
He's really been enjoying his time and exploring things. I'm glad for
it.
One thing that's come up is computer time. Initially he stayed up a
couple nights on the computer watching Transformers, etc. I had issues
with it - (I can see you all shaking your heads ;) ) - because his
brothers would copy it and start hitting each other. He'd do the same
too. I'm all for DS exploring his interests in robots, etc., but I am
not for the coming crying to mom part.
What I did was explain to DS the patterns of copying, and pointing out
the twins' behavior. I encouraged him to pick something else. What are
other approaches I could have used? All three of them play Transformers
with the toys they have and DS has told me of the difference between
Beast Wars and Cybertron, etc. I've listened to him though I haven't
asked many questions about it.
As for the staying up all night part, I didn't feel comfortable with him
up alone after I had gone to bed. Plus my own time on my computer was
limited because I let him play. I got behind on emails, etc. So we
discussed it and I told him that I didn't feel comfortable with him
online all night. I wouldn't be able to help him if something happened,
etc. because I'm asleep. Plus my time runs out and I need to use it - it
is my computer after all and brings in income for us too. So the
computer reverts to me at 8pm every night until morning. He can play
with it during the day.
I told him if he has his own computer he can decide what his limits are,
within reason. (I wouldn't allow porn or breaking the law, etc. in my
house you know?) He asked about a laptop. I said we can look into it
and at the cost, etc. See what we can work out.
So am I missing anything here? Am I being too controlling?
--Adrean
He's really been enjoying his time and exploring things. I'm glad for
it.
One thing that's come up is computer time. Initially he stayed up a
couple nights on the computer watching Transformers, etc. I had issues
with it - (I can see you all shaking your heads ;) ) - because his
brothers would copy it and start hitting each other. He'd do the same
too. I'm all for DS exploring his interests in robots, etc., but I am
not for the coming crying to mom part.
What I did was explain to DS the patterns of copying, and pointing out
the twins' behavior. I encouraged him to pick something else. What are
other approaches I could have used? All three of them play Transformers
with the toys they have and DS has told me of the difference between
Beast Wars and Cybertron, etc. I've listened to him though I haven't
asked many questions about it.
As for the staying up all night part, I didn't feel comfortable with him
up alone after I had gone to bed. Plus my own time on my computer was
limited because I let him play. I got behind on emails, etc. So we
discussed it and I told him that I didn't feel comfortable with him
online all night. I wouldn't be able to help him if something happened,
etc. because I'm asleep. Plus my time runs out and I need to use it - it
is my computer after all and brings in income for us too. So the
computer reverts to me at 8pm every night until morning. He can play
with it during the day.
I told him if he has his own computer he can decide what his limits are,
within reason. (I wouldn't allow porn or breaking the law, etc. in my
house you know?) He asked about a laptop. I said we can look into it
and at the cost, etc. See what we can work out.
So am I missing anything here? Am I being too controlling?
--Adrean
Melissa
> As for the staying up all night part, I didn't feel comfortablewith him
> up alone after I had gone to bed.Ok, I had to chime in on this one. We are new to unschooling also and
we decided that there will be no more bed times around these parts.
So myexpierence has been sometimes they go to sleep before me and
sometimes after me. I did feel a little leary of them being up but I
have to trust them, what alternative is there really? So anyway last
night I was on the computer and Thomas my 8 year old DS came in my
room and wanted some attention, so I left the computer and proceeded
to have a tickle session, and then we chilled out after a whaile and
that led into a talk and we talked for about a half hour until he
fell asleep mid-conversation. So I decided that I was sleepy too, so
I cuddled up with him. My oldest DS Jordan who is 9 checked in and
said he was going to stay up and play a game. So I went off to sleep.
I woke up this late morning to Jordan already being awake and made
himself breakfast, he fed our cats and dogs and then took them out
for a potty break. These are not his chores but just something he
knows needs to get done and he didn't wait on anyone else to get up
and care for them he took it upon himself to do it. I talked to him
this moning and I asked him if he was scared being up all by himself
or if it made him feel "Like A Man" he started giggling and said "He
Felt Like A Man". It's funny how it's the little things that make a
difference!
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>
I told him if he has his own computer he can decide what his limits
are,
within reason. (I wouldn't allow porn or breaking the law, etc. in my
house you know?) He asked about a laptop. I said we can look into it
and at the cost, etc.
-=-=-=-
How will you not allow porn or law-breaking in your house?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
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From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>
I told him if he has his own computer he can decide what his limits
are,
within reason. (I wouldn't allow porn or breaking the law, etc. in my
house you know?) He asked about a laptop. I said we can look into it
and at the cost, etc.
-=-=-=-
How will you not allow porn or law-breaking in your house?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
Ren Allen
~~
How will you not allow porn or law-breaking in your house?~~
Hovering near the child 24/7?;)
When a person says "not allow" methinks they are dellusional about how
much control they have over another human being.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
How will you not allow porn or law-breaking in your house?~~
Hovering near the child 24/7?;)
When a person says "not allow" methinks they are dellusional about how
much control they have over another human being.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Amanda Horein
-=- As for the staying up all night part, I didn't feel comfortable with him
up alone after I had gone to bed.-=-
My 7 year old doesn't have a bedtime and she is a night owl (a lot like her
father), but I wasn't comfortable letting her stay up past me when her dad
wasn't home (he is usually up til 2, but works 2nd). We worked it out
together and we figured out that she can stay up as long as she wants to,
but in order to feel comfortable (we live in a pretty bad neighborhood) I
need her to be upstairs where I am very nearby if something comes up. We
have video games upstairs as well as books, toys, etc so this was an
acceptable arrangement for her. We basically asked ourselves, "How can we
make this happen for her" and we have done that with many other issues in
the house as well.
--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (nearly 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3)
Since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it is
senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn out
people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able to
learn whatever needs to be learned
� John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
up alone after I had gone to bed.-=-
My 7 year old doesn't have a bedtime and she is a night owl (a lot like her
father), but I wasn't comfortable letting her stay up past me when her dad
wasn't home (he is usually up til 2, but works 2nd). We worked it out
together and we figured out that she can stay up as long as she wants to,
but in order to feel comfortable (we live in a pretty bad neighborhood) I
need her to be upstairs where I am very nearby if something comes up. We
have video games upstairs as well as books, toys, etc so this was an
acceptable arrangement for her. We basically asked ourselves, "How can we
make this happen for her" and we have done that with many other issues in
the house as well.
--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (nearly 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3)
Since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it is
senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn out
people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able to
learn whatever needs to be learned
� John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Adrean Clark
> How will you not allow porn or law-breaking in your house?By checking on him periodically and knowing him well enough to see when
something's up. Being there for his questions and working on being open
to anything. Talking about it outright too. I don't think I will hook
up internet to that laptop til later.
I can't prevent it 100% but he can know what it is and the reasons why,
etc. - enough to make a decision. I just hope he won't choose that.
--Adrean
Adrean Clark
No, I would just be there around him like normal. My goal is to have a
relationship such that he'll feel open about talking.
If someone came running in our house with heroin, would we let them in?
To me, rules are guidelines not fences... so I say I don't want things
that break the law in my house, because those things also hurt people.
There are some laws that can be unjust - so it is a matter of one's
conviction. To me, I don't want drugs, illegal hacking, porn in my house
because those things can be unsafe. Is it wrong to have those
guidelines in unschooling?
Adrean
relationship such that he'll feel open about talking.
If someone came running in our house with heroin, would we let them in?
To me, rules are guidelines not fences... so I say I don't want things
that break the law in my house, because those things also hurt people.
There are some laws that can be unjust - so it is a matter of one's
conviction. To me, I don't want drugs, illegal hacking, porn in my house
because those things can be unsafe. Is it wrong to have those
guidelines in unschooling?
Adrean
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:07 am, Ren Allen wrote:
> ~~
> How will you not allow porn or law-breaking in your house?~~
>
> Hovering near the child 24/7?;)
> When a person says "not allow" methinks they are dellusional about how
> much control they have over another human being.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>
something's up. Being there for his questions and working on being
open
to anything. Talking about it outright too. I don't think I will hook
up internet to that laptop til later.
I can't prevent it 100% but he can know what it is and the reasons why,
etc. - enough to make a decision. I just hope he won't choose that.
-=-=-=-=-
But if he DOES, what will you do?
If there's a *rule* about porn and he visits a porn site, *then* what?
He loses computer privileges, maybe?
What do you think will happen then? Might he lie? Sneak? Might he go to
a friend's?
What would *you* do if you were interested in something that was
forbidden in your own home?
"Hoping he won't choose" something isn't a plan. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>
> How will you not allow porn or law-breaking in your house?By checking on him periodically and knowing him well enough to see when
something's up. Being there for his questions and working on being
open
to anything. Talking about it outright too. I don't think I will hook
up internet to that laptop til later.
I can't prevent it 100% but he can know what it is and the reasons why,
etc. - enough to make a decision. I just hope he won't choose that.
-=-=-=-=-
But if he DOES, what will you do?
If there's a *rule* about porn and he visits a porn site, *then* what?
He loses computer privileges, maybe?
What do you think will happen then? Might he lie? Sneak? Might he go to
a friend's?
What would *you* do if you were interested in something that was
forbidden in your own home?
"Hoping he won't choose" something isn't a plan. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>
No, I would just be there around him like normal. My goal is to have a
relationship such that he'll feel open about talking.
-=-=-=-
Yeah---mine too. And it works. Buy had I forbade porn and drugs, do you
think he would have felt open talking to me about it?
We haven't actually had the porn issue. Sex, yes, but not porn.
Marijuana has also been an issue. But they aren't fobidden or "not
allowed." *How* could I not allow something when I'm not with him 24/7?
-=-=-=-=-
If someone came running in our house with heroin, would we let them in?
-=-=-==-
Huge jump. Let's start small.
If your son were smoking weed (I keep saying "pot" or "dope" and keep
being corrected by my son. They call it weed. <g>), would you make him
live elsewhere?
-=-=-=-=-
To me, rules are guidelines not fences... so I say I don't want things
that break the law in my house, because those things also hurt people.
-=-=-=-
Sometimes. Sometimes not. Where's the line?
-=-=-=-=-
There are some laws that can be unjust - so it is a matter of one's
conviction. To me, I don't want drugs, illegal hacking, porn in my
house
because those things can be unsafe.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Illegal doesn't equal unsafe. Stupidity often does though!
Around here, safety is our number ONE concern. I can't stop my children
from breaking the law. I can't. *I* know that, and they know that.
We can talk about justice and consequences and potential damage. But I
can't make those decisions *for* them. I want them to be *informed*. If
I shut down discussion because it's something I simply won't allow, how
is that encouraging them to talk with me? How does that keep
communication open?
It's wonderful to think that our fabulous relationships with our kids
will keep them from looking at porn or having sex or doing drugs---but
that's not always true. What our fabulous relationships DO is to
establish honesty and trust so that they *can* come to us when they
have questions about these things---and to know that, even if they DO
them, they are loved and valued and respected *in spite* of their
decisions.
Cameron smoked weed and had sex as a young teen (he's 20 in January).
That didn't make him wrong or bad or "troubled"---it simply made him
Cameron. And I am honored to have been included in discussions about
these things before, during, and after the fact. Do I wish he hadn't so
early? You betcha! But that doesn't mean it wasn't right for him.
He's responsible and level-headed, and I've trusted him to make
responsible, level-headed decisions. Maybe not the one's *I* would
choose, but I think he's turned out just fine.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
Is it wrong to have those guidelines in unschooling?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Is your "guideline" NO porn and NO drugs? Or is it safety and health?
Can you try principles instead?
Anyone have a quick link to Ben & Danielle's articles on Rules &
Principles?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>
No, I would just be there around him like normal. My goal is to have a
relationship such that he'll feel open about talking.
-=-=-=-
Yeah---mine too. And it works. Buy had I forbade porn and drugs, do you
think he would have felt open talking to me about it?
We haven't actually had the porn issue. Sex, yes, but not porn.
Marijuana has also been an issue. But they aren't fobidden or "not
allowed." *How* could I not allow something when I'm not with him 24/7?
-=-=-=-=-
If someone came running in our house with heroin, would we let them in?
-=-=-==-
Huge jump. Let's start small.
If your son were smoking weed (I keep saying "pot" or "dope" and keep
being corrected by my son. They call it weed. <g>), would you make him
live elsewhere?
-=-=-=-=-
To me, rules are guidelines not fences... so I say I don't want things
that break the law in my house, because those things also hurt people.
-=-=-=-
Sometimes. Sometimes not. Where's the line?
-=-=-=-=-
There are some laws that can be unjust - so it is a matter of one's
conviction. To me, I don't want drugs, illegal hacking, porn in my
house
because those things can be unsafe.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Illegal doesn't equal unsafe. Stupidity often does though!
Around here, safety is our number ONE concern. I can't stop my children
from breaking the law. I can't. *I* know that, and they know that.
We can talk about justice and consequences and potential damage. But I
can't make those decisions *for* them. I want them to be *informed*. If
I shut down discussion because it's something I simply won't allow, how
is that encouraging them to talk with me? How does that keep
communication open?
It's wonderful to think that our fabulous relationships with our kids
will keep them from looking at porn or having sex or doing drugs---but
that's not always true. What our fabulous relationships DO is to
establish honesty and trust so that they *can* come to us when they
have questions about these things---and to know that, even if they DO
them, they are loved and valued and respected *in spite* of their
decisions.
Cameron smoked weed and had sex as a young teen (he's 20 in January).
That didn't make him wrong or bad or "troubled"---it simply made him
Cameron. And I am honored to have been included in discussions about
these things before, during, and after the fact. Do I wish he hadn't so
early? You betcha! But that doesn't mean it wasn't right for him.
He's responsible and level-headed, and I've trusted him to make
responsible, level-headed decisions. Maybe not the one's *I* would
choose, but I think he's turned out just fine.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
Is it wrong to have those guidelines in unschooling?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Is your "guideline" NO porn and NO drugs? Or is it safety and health?
Can you try principles instead?
Anyone have a quick link to Ben & Danielle's articles on Rules &
Principles?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
Adrean Clark
I really appreciate all that you've said about principles, etc. DH and
I talked about it and thought over it while he was here visiting, still
thinking about it. I really do want my kids to have the autonomy and
principles as described in Sandra's page so will keep figuring it out.
:)
--Adrean
I talked about it and thought over it while he was here visiting, still
thinking about it. I really do want my kids to have the autonomy and
principles as described in Sandra's page so will keep figuring it out.
:)
--Adrean