intense & very strong willed 4 year old
Julie Dutt
I have two of my children at home with me (my oldest is in high
school). My daughter is 10 and my son is 4. Here is the problem that
I just can't figure out how to handle. DS is very intense and
extremely strong willed (which I do admire ~ really). On a daily
basis, there is meltdown, tantrums and anger, throwing things, etc.
Some of the reasons for any of these could be that I can't make a
sandwich for him fast enough or get his juice exactly right. I can
sense his mood and try to make the situation light-hearted but it often
just infuriates him. He has become extremely rude to me.
The hardest situation is when my dd doesn't want to play with him,
especially when she has a friend over. I completely respect that and
try hard to let them be alone. This will send ds into a very angry
tantrum, banging on the door of the room they are trying to play and
being extremely rude to me, telling me to "leave me alone" or "I said
stop talking to me", etc. He just refuses to take no for an answer.
And honestly, I try to say "no" as little as possible, although to him,
he doesn't see it that way ~ he only notices the times I do say no.
I'm really at my wits end as it's really making a rift with my
daughters. They just don't want to be around him and they are sick of
his almost constant whining, complaining, anger, hitting, etc.
I've really, really tried to be understanding and divert his attention
when things start to escalate and it'll work for awhile but eventually,
it ends up back to him crying.
Oh, I really hope someone has some advice.
Thanks SO much.
Julie
http://bittybraille.com
http://julieannhandmadegoods.com
http://julieann.etsy.com
http://julieann-handmade-goods.blogspot.com
http://indiediner.blogspot.com
http://findingwonder.blogspot.com
school). My daughter is 10 and my son is 4. Here is the problem that
I just can't figure out how to handle. DS is very intense and
extremely strong willed (which I do admire ~ really). On a daily
basis, there is meltdown, tantrums and anger, throwing things, etc.
Some of the reasons for any of these could be that I can't make a
sandwich for him fast enough or get his juice exactly right. I can
sense his mood and try to make the situation light-hearted but it often
just infuriates him. He has become extremely rude to me.
The hardest situation is when my dd doesn't want to play with him,
especially when she has a friend over. I completely respect that and
try hard to let them be alone. This will send ds into a very angry
tantrum, banging on the door of the room they are trying to play and
being extremely rude to me, telling me to "leave me alone" or "I said
stop talking to me", etc. He just refuses to take no for an answer.
And honestly, I try to say "no" as little as possible, although to him,
he doesn't see it that way ~ he only notices the times I do say no.
I'm really at my wits end as it's really making a rift with my
daughters. They just don't want to be around him and they are sick of
his almost constant whining, complaining, anger, hitting, etc.
I've really, really tried to be understanding and divert his attention
when things start to escalate and it'll work for awhile but eventually,
it ends up back to him crying.
Oh, I really hope someone has some advice.
Thanks SO much.
Julie
http://bittybraille.com
http://julieannhandmadegoods.com
http://julieann.etsy.com
http://julieann-handmade-goods.blogspot.com
http://indiediner.blogspot.com
http://findingwonder.blogspot.com
Robert Saxon
Julie,
Don't really have solutions, but sympathy. I have a very spirited 4-yr-old
daughter (dd2). And it seems to have ratcheted up the last couple of weeks,
as if it couldn't get any worse. There've been times when we (both DW and
I) have parented just abysmally. So, I'm watching this thread for more
action. I guess I need reminding of some things, and hopefully there's
something new.
The only thing that seems to have made a difference at all, and it doesn't
always work, is to try to figure out what the real issue is. With dd2, it
appears to be both needing attention, and that she doesn't like going out
anywhere (NOTE: we got back from a 10-day road trip a couple weeks ago, had
a semi-mellow next week, but then went out a lot the next week -- a bit
soon, I'm guessing).
With dd#2, asking her directly what's wrong will get you the answer to the
burr under her saddle about 50% of the time. If that. The rest of the time
it's watching the environment and the interplay. She focuses so much on
what's in front of her that finding out from her what the real issue is
(three "events" ago) is not easy. When we've found out the root cause, she
responds much like, "yeah, that's it, I forgot". And life goes on.
My 2 cents' worth, and I'm hoping I can pick up a couple of dollars around
here.
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (almost 6!) and Elissa (4.5)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don't really have solutions, but sympathy. I have a very spirited 4-yr-old
daughter (dd2). And it seems to have ratcheted up the last couple of weeks,
as if it couldn't get any worse. There've been times when we (both DW and
I) have parented just abysmally. So, I'm watching this thread for more
action. I guess I need reminding of some things, and hopefully there's
something new.
The only thing that seems to have made a difference at all, and it doesn't
always work, is to try to figure out what the real issue is. With dd2, it
appears to be both needing attention, and that she doesn't like going out
anywhere (NOTE: we got back from a 10-day road trip a couple weeks ago, had
a semi-mellow next week, but then went out a lot the next week -- a bit
soon, I'm guessing).
With dd#2, asking her directly what's wrong will get you the answer to the
burr under her saddle about 50% of the time. If that. The rest of the time
it's watching the environment and the interplay. She focuses so much on
what's in front of her that finding out from her what the real issue is
(three "events" ago) is not easy. When we've found out the root cause, she
responds much like, "yeah, that's it, I forgot". And life goes on.
My 2 cents' worth, and I'm hoping I can pick up a couple of dollars around
here.
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (almost 6!) and Elissa (4.5)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 28, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Julie Dutt wrote:
books extremely helpful:
The Explosive Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/006077939X?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=006077939X&adid=015A3QP0GJ06TXY0KKFX&
Raising Your Spirited Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060923288?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=0060923288&adid=0GCCX5EQXQZQ45WAQV7A&
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> DS is very intense andPeople who have said similar things about their child found these
> extremely strong willed (which I do admire ~ really). On a daily
> basis, there is meltdown, tantrums and anger, throwing things, etc.
books extremely helpful:
The Explosive Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/006077939X?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=006077939X&adid=015A3QP0GJ06TXY0KKFX&
Raising Your Spirited Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060923288?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=0060923288&adid=0GCCX5EQXQZQ45WAQV7A&
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jamie Murray
Thank you too, as I will look into these too. My son who will be 4 yrs old next month, also has temper tamtums, hyperactive, defiant, destructive, aggressive, etc.
Jamie
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intense & very strong willed 4 year old
On Oct 28, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Julie Dutt wrote:
> DS is very intense and
> extremely strong willed (which I do admire ~ really). On a daily
> basis, there is meltdown, tantrums and anger, throwing things, etc.
People who have said similar things about their child found these
books extremely helpful:
The Explosive Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/006077939X?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=006077939X&adid=015A3QP0GJ06TXY0KKFX&
Raising Your Spirited Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060923288?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=0060923288&adid=0GCCX5EQXQZQ45WAQV7A&
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Hi Julie, this is close to my heart as I also have a very strong
willed 4-year-old DD. In August she started Head Start (I hadn't read
about homeschooling much less unschooling) but before that especially,
we had a really hard time being together all the time. She would lay
in the floor and kick and scream, at the drop of a hat. My husband
(her stepdad) gets really angry when she starts screaming, especially
when our baby boy is sleeping, (and since DH is a night owl he's
always trying to sleep through the day) and it's been really hard to
find a solution that will help the entire family.
Lately she has become a little sweetie pie. She keeps her room picked
up and even cleans the living room, without being asked. She's not
been needing constant attention and will go in her room and color for
an hour at a time.
Part of what has happened is that she's going to Head Start for 4
hours a day, so she has somewhere to be every day and is really
enjoying it. (I am not saying that you should do the same thing, as a
matter of fact I have a lot of regrets about sending her there before
reading up on homeschooling. This is just a theory on why she's all
of a sudden so peaceful.)
Also, I have started to validate her emotions. This is when the
peacefulness really began, almost immediately. She still has a
meltdown sometimes, which goes like:
DD: Mommy, I need you to get me a piece of tape.
Me: I'm nursing your brother right now, he's almost asleep, if you'll
give me just a min--
DD: *shrieking meltdown before I can get the words out*
Before, I would have gotten out of my chair with the sleepy brother,
and spanked her, and screamed back. (I'm not proud of this. It's
very hard to admit.) I would have been infuriated. Now, I understand
why she's doing this. It's because of all the times I said, "In a
minute," and didn't use some follow-through. Now, I try to get
through the screams by saying: "Sweetie, come here. Okay. You're
angry that I can't get up right now to go get the tape for you? And
you're afraid that when I say 'in a minute' that I don't mean it?"
Then I assure her that if she will only wait a minute, we can have
special one-on-one time, because then her brother will be asleep. She
walks away sniffling but consoled.
DD has also been very impatient over getting what she wants to eat or
drink RIGHT NOW at this second, and I've found that if I'm in the
middle of making it, I'll say, "I'm making it." If after saying that,
she's still panicking, I would try one of two things. 1) you can try
validating his emotions again-- "It's hard to wait on something to eat
when you're hungry and want something in your belly already." or 2)
This is probably my old method, but in this case I think being silent
for about 30 seconds while you finish making it would be acceptable.
My dd senses my tension and when I try to exasperatedly tell her to
just be patient, she will start raging.
Also recognize that if he has a lot of pent-up anger, he needs to be
able to express that. Maybe you could work with him to find out where
it's coming from and healthier ways to express it than beating on his
sister's door. Maybe explain to him that his sister has started to
not want to play with him at all because of the way he's been acting,
and that if he could get out the frustration without actively
disturbing her that she'd be more likely to WANT to spend time with
him. The way to get someone to WANT to be with you is not to scream
at them and bang on their door.
(Note: I am new at all this stuff, and part of me is asking myself,
"Why do you think YOU can give advice?" But we've had a huge
breakthrough, it's been mostly due to my change in perspective. I
hope this helps even a bit. I hope it's not all TOO obvious.)
Heather
willed 4-year-old DD. In August she started Head Start (I hadn't read
about homeschooling much less unschooling) but before that especially,
we had a really hard time being together all the time. She would lay
in the floor and kick and scream, at the drop of a hat. My husband
(her stepdad) gets really angry when she starts screaming, especially
when our baby boy is sleeping, (and since DH is a night owl he's
always trying to sleep through the day) and it's been really hard to
find a solution that will help the entire family.
Lately she has become a little sweetie pie. She keeps her room picked
up and even cleans the living room, without being asked. She's not
been needing constant attention and will go in her room and color for
an hour at a time.
Part of what has happened is that she's going to Head Start for 4
hours a day, so she has somewhere to be every day and is really
enjoying it. (I am not saying that you should do the same thing, as a
matter of fact I have a lot of regrets about sending her there before
reading up on homeschooling. This is just a theory on why she's all
of a sudden so peaceful.)
Also, I have started to validate her emotions. This is when the
peacefulness really began, almost immediately. She still has a
meltdown sometimes, which goes like:
DD: Mommy, I need you to get me a piece of tape.
Me: I'm nursing your brother right now, he's almost asleep, if you'll
give me just a min--
DD: *shrieking meltdown before I can get the words out*
Before, I would have gotten out of my chair with the sleepy brother,
and spanked her, and screamed back. (I'm not proud of this. It's
very hard to admit.) I would have been infuriated. Now, I understand
why she's doing this. It's because of all the times I said, "In a
minute," and didn't use some follow-through. Now, I try to get
through the screams by saying: "Sweetie, come here. Okay. You're
angry that I can't get up right now to go get the tape for you? And
you're afraid that when I say 'in a minute' that I don't mean it?"
Then I assure her that if she will only wait a minute, we can have
special one-on-one time, because then her brother will be asleep. She
walks away sniffling but consoled.
DD has also been very impatient over getting what she wants to eat or
drink RIGHT NOW at this second, and I've found that if I'm in the
middle of making it, I'll say, "I'm making it." If after saying that,
she's still panicking, I would try one of two things. 1) you can try
validating his emotions again-- "It's hard to wait on something to eat
when you're hungry and want something in your belly already." or 2)
This is probably my old method, but in this case I think being silent
for about 30 seconds while you finish making it would be acceptable.
My dd senses my tension and when I try to exasperatedly tell her to
just be patient, she will start raging.
Also recognize that if he has a lot of pent-up anger, he needs to be
able to express that. Maybe you could work with him to find out where
it's coming from and healthier ways to express it than beating on his
sister's door. Maybe explain to him that his sister has started to
not want to play with him at all because of the way he's been acting,
and that if he could get out the frustration without actively
disturbing her that she'd be more likely to WANT to spend time with
him. The way to get someone to WANT to be with you is not to scream
at them and bang on their door.
(Note: I am new at all this stuff, and part of me is asking myself,
"Why do you think YOU can give advice?" But we've had a huge
breakthrough, it's been mostly due to my change in perspective. I
hope this helps even a bit. I hope it's not all TOO obvious.)
Heather
Jesse Suckow Crowell
My ds2 (10) has always been a very spirited child. He is very tenacious and
strong willed. I'm sure these traits will serve him well later in life but
it's hard being the recipient now, lol. I found The Spirited Child to be
very beneficial in finding new ways to approach my son and to figure out
what are the most consistent triggers for his temper. For him, transitions
were the most difficult--any kind of transition. Going to bed, leaving the
house, going on vacation, having people coming to the house--anything. We
learned to give him plenty of time to get used to the idea of change and as
often as we could, let him figure out when he was ready to make the move to
the new thing. He was in school up until 1.5 yrs ago and I'm very glad we
took him out. He has relaxed quite a bit, melt downs are very rare now.
Jess
strong willed. I'm sure these traits will serve him well later in life but
it's hard being the recipient now, lol. I found The Spirited Child to be
very beneficial in finding new ways to approach my son and to figure out
what are the most consistent triggers for his temper. For him, transitions
were the most difficult--any kind of transition. Going to bed, leaving the
house, going on vacation, having people coming to the house--anything. We
learned to give him plenty of time to get used to the idea of change and as
often as we could, let him figure out when he was ready to make the move to
the new thing. He was in school up until 1.5 yrs ago and I'm very glad we
took him out. He has relaxed quite a bit, melt downs are very rare now.
Jess
On 10/28/07, Julie Dutt <jdutt@...> wrote:
>
> I have two of my children at home with me (my oldest is in high
> school). My daughter is 10 and my son is 4. Here is the problem that
> I just can't figure out how to handle. DS is very intense and
> extremely strong willed (which I do admire ~ really). On a daily
> basis, there is meltdown, tantrums and anger, throwing things, etc.
> Some of the reasons for any of these could be that I can't make a
> sandwich for him fast enough or get his juice exactly right. I can
> sense his mood and try to make the situation light-hearted but it often
> just infuriates him. He has become extremely rude to me.
>
> The hardest situation is when my dd doesn't want to play with him,
> especially when she has a friend over. I completely respect that and
> try hard to let them be alone. This will send ds into a very angry
> tantrum, banging on the door of the room they are trying to play and
> being extremely rude to me, telling me to "leave me alone" or "I said
> stop talking to me", etc. He just refuses to take no for an answer.
> And honestly, I try to say "no" as little as possible, although to him,
> he doesn't see it that way ~ he only notices the times I do say no.
>
> I'm really at my wits end as it's really making a rift with my
> daughters. They just don't want to be around him and they are sick of
> his almost constant whining, complaining, anger, hitting, etc.
>
> I've really, really tried to be understanding and divert his attention
> when things start to escalate and it'll work for awhile but eventually,
> it ends up back to him crying.
>
> Oh, I really hope someone has some advice.
>
> Thanks SO much.
>
> Julie
>
> http://bittybraille.com
> http://julieannhandmadegoods.com
> http://julieann.etsy.com
> http://julieann-handmade-goods.blogspot.com
> http://indiediner.blogspot.com
> http://findingwonder.blogspot.com
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
My wonderful middle daughter was like this at 4 years old. Really
super super intense, easily angered, very big outbursts over
seemingly little things. I worried for years about her ability to
cope with the normal difficulties of life. She's 20 now and she's
fine. Still intense. Still feels things very very strongly. Still
super sensitive and easily hurt and that hurt still shows itself as
anger (but her anger is no longer in the form of extreme outbursts,
she handles herself beautifully, and is able to channel her strong
emotions into productive directions).
First, accept it that there will be no magic "thing" you can do to
change him. The more you accept him as he is, the more you'll be able
to help him. Get really serious about appreciating the way he is --
use different vocabulary even in your own head. Don't think of him as
"unreasonable," for example, or "demanding." Change those words
inside your own head to, "high expectations" and "idealistic."
Then, focus on supporting him, not on fixing him.
I KNOW this sounds impossible. My intense child has an older and a
younger sibling and I really do KNOW what you face in practice.
So - your daughter is in her room with a friend and your son is
screaming and banging on the door. In your head, you have a tendency
to think, "He is SO rude, so unreasonable, so stubborn,
so...whatever." Stop yourself and think from his point of view - he
is what? He LOVES to be with his sister and her friend so much. He
loves to be part of what's going on. He loves the stimulation of a
new and different person in the house. He adores his sister and feels
cut off when he has to share her. He feels rejected and put down by
not being included. His feelings are hurt AND he doesn't have
perspective and feels like she will ALWAYS be rejecting him from now
on and that he'll always feel this hurt. And, to top it all off, his
mother, whom he counts on to fulfill his needs, doesn't seem to even
halfway understand his needs and doesn't seem to care and is NOT
trying to help him, but is judging him as being bad (even if you
don't say it, he knows it). So now add a background sense of shame to
the whole scenario, too.
So - now your thinking is realistic. That is a big step. It changes
the dynamics. It makes your own behavior result from trying to do
what is good for the kids, rather than responding to frustrations and
fears that your son's behavior triggers in you. It'll help prevent
you from aggravating the problem by your own reactions.
Breathe a few very deep slow breaths. Get your thinking back to basic
principles. What principles are important here? An important one is
that your daughter has a right to safety (from harassment) in her own
home. Speak that idea in words your son can understand, but don't
expect him to respond or care. You might speak it a thousand times in
the next 10 years or so. It helps to say it out loud so that you are
focused on the principle, but it is what you do that really gets the
idea across.
Once things have progressed to the point of a hysterical child
screaming and banging on the door, out of control, you have to handle
it the best you can. It might come down to you carrying a screaming
and hitting child away from the door, into another room, and forcibly
keeping him in there until he is calm, always using the least
possible amount of force. This should have to happen to you more than
a time or two, though, before YOU learn to head it off. Again, when
these situations arise, we deal with them best we can, trying to keep
our thinking clear and stay focused on the basic principles we want
to live by. But the most important thing isn't so much how you deal
with that situation, it is that you learn from it so that it doesn't
happen over and over.
There is really NO good outcome once that kind of situation is
entrenched. You have to think back to before the situation started
and figure out what you could have done to have prevented it. Don't
say that there is no way, don't say it is unpredictable, don't say
that you did what you could have done. We can give you lots of ideas,
but you have to have an attitude of willingness to set things up so
they work well for your family, even if other people might think
you're going overboard to accommodate your son's behavior.
So - you don't invite a friend over for your daughter again without a
prior plan for your son, right? Because you know, for sure, that is
not workable. Don't set up situations that you know are problematic.
Make a list of a lot of different options. Son goes to play at a
friend's house, your daughter and her friend play at the park, your
daughter goes to friend's house instead of friend at your house, you
have a friend of your son's over at the same time, and so on.
It won't be forever - he's four and that is a relatively explosive
time of life for most kids, and an extremely intense time of life for
those who have that personality. But it is good practice for you -
you have to practice thinking ahead and setting up his environment so
that he can be successful and happy. That is a way of thinking that
will help you as an unschooling parent and in many other ways with
other people, too. You'll thank him later for making it necessary for
you to learn so much. Honest.
There is a good book that might give you a lot of ideas along these
lines - "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene.
-pam
super super intense, easily angered, very big outbursts over
seemingly little things. I worried for years about her ability to
cope with the normal difficulties of life. She's 20 now and she's
fine. Still intense. Still feels things very very strongly. Still
super sensitive and easily hurt and that hurt still shows itself as
anger (but her anger is no longer in the form of extreme outbursts,
she handles herself beautifully, and is able to channel her strong
emotions into productive directions).
First, accept it that there will be no magic "thing" you can do to
change him. The more you accept him as he is, the more you'll be able
to help him. Get really serious about appreciating the way he is --
use different vocabulary even in your own head. Don't think of him as
"unreasonable," for example, or "demanding." Change those words
inside your own head to, "high expectations" and "idealistic."
Then, focus on supporting him, not on fixing him.
I KNOW this sounds impossible. My intense child has an older and a
younger sibling and I really do KNOW what you face in practice.
So - your daughter is in her room with a friend and your son is
screaming and banging on the door. In your head, you have a tendency
to think, "He is SO rude, so unreasonable, so stubborn,
so...whatever." Stop yourself and think from his point of view - he
is what? He LOVES to be with his sister and her friend so much. He
loves to be part of what's going on. He loves the stimulation of a
new and different person in the house. He adores his sister and feels
cut off when he has to share her. He feels rejected and put down by
not being included. His feelings are hurt AND he doesn't have
perspective and feels like she will ALWAYS be rejecting him from now
on and that he'll always feel this hurt. And, to top it all off, his
mother, whom he counts on to fulfill his needs, doesn't seem to even
halfway understand his needs and doesn't seem to care and is NOT
trying to help him, but is judging him as being bad (even if you
don't say it, he knows it). So now add a background sense of shame to
the whole scenario, too.
So - now your thinking is realistic. That is a big step. It changes
the dynamics. It makes your own behavior result from trying to do
what is good for the kids, rather than responding to frustrations and
fears that your son's behavior triggers in you. It'll help prevent
you from aggravating the problem by your own reactions.
Breathe a few very deep slow breaths. Get your thinking back to basic
principles. What principles are important here? An important one is
that your daughter has a right to safety (from harassment) in her own
home. Speak that idea in words your son can understand, but don't
expect him to respond or care. You might speak it a thousand times in
the next 10 years or so. It helps to say it out loud so that you are
focused on the principle, but it is what you do that really gets the
idea across.
Once things have progressed to the point of a hysterical child
screaming and banging on the door, out of control, you have to handle
it the best you can. It might come down to you carrying a screaming
and hitting child away from the door, into another room, and forcibly
keeping him in there until he is calm, always using the least
possible amount of force. This should have to happen to you more than
a time or two, though, before YOU learn to head it off. Again, when
these situations arise, we deal with them best we can, trying to keep
our thinking clear and stay focused on the basic principles we want
to live by. But the most important thing isn't so much how you deal
with that situation, it is that you learn from it so that it doesn't
happen over and over.
There is really NO good outcome once that kind of situation is
entrenched. You have to think back to before the situation started
and figure out what you could have done to have prevented it. Don't
say that there is no way, don't say it is unpredictable, don't say
that you did what you could have done. We can give you lots of ideas,
but you have to have an attitude of willingness to set things up so
they work well for your family, even if other people might think
you're going overboard to accommodate your son's behavior.
So - you don't invite a friend over for your daughter again without a
prior plan for your son, right? Because you know, for sure, that is
not workable. Don't set up situations that you know are problematic.
Make a list of a lot of different options. Son goes to play at a
friend's house, your daughter and her friend play at the park, your
daughter goes to friend's house instead of friend at your house, you
have a friend of your son's over at the same time, and so on.
It won't be forever - he's four and that is a relatively explosive
time of life for most kids, and an extremely intense time of life for
those who have that personality. But it is good practice for you -
you have to practice thinking ahead and setting up his environment so
that he can be successful and happy. That is a way of thinking that
will help you as an unschooling parent and in many other ways with
other people, too. You'll thank him later for making it necessary for
you to learn so much. Honest.
There is a good book that might give you a lot of ideas along these
lines - "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene.
-pam
On Oct 28, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Julie Dutt wrote:
> On a daily
> basis, there is meltdown, tantrums and anger, throwing things, etc.
> Some of the reasons for any of these could be that I can't make a
> sandwich for him fast enough or get his juice exactly right. I can
> sense his mood and try to make the situation light-hearted but it
> often
> just infuriates him. He has become extremely rude to me.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meghan Pawlowski
**Don't think of him as "unreasonable," for example, or "demanding." Change those words inside your own head to, "high expectations" and "idealistic."** **In your head, you have a tendency to think, "He is SO rude, so unreasonable, so stubborn, so...whatever." Stop yourself and think from his point of view - he is what? He LOVES to be with his sister and her friend so much. He loves to be part of what's going on. He loves the stimulation of a new and different person in the house. He adores his sister and feels cut off when he has to share her.** I wanted to pull this out, because I just had an 'aha!' moment while reading this. I have a pair of intense four-year-olds, and I've been at a loss as to what to do when they are in the middle of a tantrum, mostly because I am so stressed out and angry by then that my wonderful, gentle, peaceful parenting principles fly right out the window. DD's had a friend spend the night last night, and we had a few meltdowns...looking back, thinking about dd's positively instead of wondering (angrily) why they are behaving this way, has given me a lot of ideas about how *I* could have handled things better, headed some situations off, and supported dd's, instead of getting exasperated with them. Thanks, Pam. -MeghanMama to Ava (4), Genevieve (4), and Liam (21 months) The Planet Pawlowski Blog
_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!
http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Darcy Zloczewski
--- In [email protected], Julie Dutt <jdutt@...> wrote:
telling me to "leave me alone" or "I said stop talking to me", etc.
He just refuses to take no for an answer.
Your description just hit a chord with me. Especially the things he
says to you when he's angry. I have a pretty intense 4.5 yr. old boy
here. He says those exact words pretty much daily, or at least when
he's upset. He has a younger sis (2.5) that he has tolerated for the
first 2.25 yrs of her life. She recently became the more strong-willed
of the two (pretty much how he was emotionally at her age) and has
begun driving him to some pretty strong reactions. It's not fun. It
gets me pretty worked up sometimes (unfortunately), and I have begun
yelling at him to go in his room :(
It sounds like you are doing a great job already, keeping things
light-hearted and all. That is the hardest part, our own reactions.
I have been trying to give DS some one-on-one time doing something he
loves (art, usually), and it helps. I also try to keep him fed and
busy. These two things are important around here. My kids are
free-feeders, but my son seems to forget to eat, or wants me to make
something when I am in the middle of something else.
I also try to keep his sis busy. If she is pushing his buttons, I
divert her attention (hard for me, since I expect her to do this
herself--I know, I forget she's 2.5 sometimes!).
I guess the most important thing I can offer is empathy. I absolutely
feel your frustrations having an intense kiddo myself. This is such a
tough age. So much is being learned. Independence is really growing in
so many ways. Yikes!
Peace to you!
Darcy
>the room they are trying to play and being extremely rude to me,
> This will send ds into a very angry tantrum, banging on the door of
telling me to "leave me alone" or "I said stop talking to me", etc.
He just refuses to take no for an answer.
> And honestly, I try to say "no" as little as possible, although tohim, he doesn't see it that way ~ he only notices the times I do say no.
> Oh, I really hope someone has some advice.Hi Julie,
>
>
Your description just hit a chord with me. Especially the things he
says to you when he's angry. I have a pretty intense 4.5 yr. old boy
here. He says those exact words pretty much daily, or at least when
he's upset. He has a younger sis (2.5) that he has tolerated for the
first 2.25 yrs of her life. She recently became the more strong-willed
of the two (pretty much how he was emotionally at her age) and has
begun driving him to some pretty strong reactions. It's not fun. It
gets me pretty worked up sometimes (unfortunately), and I have begun
yelling at him to go in his room :(
It sounds like you are doing a great job already, keeping things
light-hearted and all. That is the hardest part, our own reactions.
I have been trying to give DS some one-on-one time doing something he
loves (art, usually), and it helps. I also try to keep him fed and
busy. These two things are important around here. My kids are
free-feeders, but my son seems to forget to eat, or wants me to make
something when I am in the middle of something else.
I also try to keep his sis busy. If she is pushing his buttons, I
divert her attention (hard for me, since I expect her to do this
herself--I know, I forget she's 2.5 sometimes!).
I guess the most important thing I can offer is empathy. I absolutely
feel your frustrations having an intense kiddo myself. This is such a
tough age. So much is being learned. Independence is really growing in
so many ways. Yikes!
Peace to you!
Darcy
Laurie Wolfrum
You are not alone!! There are SO many people who have
similar challenges (with some of their children) when
they are around 4 - 5ish. Although personality plays
a part in it, I think it helps to remember that age
does too. Do respond in whatever gentle and
compassionate way that you can, and as Pam said,
eliminate or minimize what causes the upsetness in the
first place. Remember that this too shall pass...it
really does get better over time (be patient and keep
trying)!
My son is now 6 and although we still have different
challenging times, I do find that they occur much less
often. For me personally, I also find that they
happen when I don't "get" what he really wants/needs
(or we have trouble communicating in a way that makes
sense to both of us), or when I am being unreasonable.
I feel like I am always learning...from my own
"learning takes" as well as from others. It really is
a journey that never ends, but we get better at it as
we go along! :)
One other place to look for some information to help
you better connect with your "intense" ds is Danielle
Conger's Spirited Child page
(http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html)
and Unschooling the high need child at
(http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/highneed.html).
Regarding when friends come over and ds is upset
because he wants to play with them too...keep
brainstorming various ideas. Maybe dd and friends
would include ds (for some of the time even)? Could
dd play at friends house instead (at least for some
time until ds is able to be okay when sisters friends
are over)? Is there something ds could do that he
loves to do when friends are over? Just some ideas to
mull over...laurie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
similar challenges (with some of their children) when
they are around 4 - 5ish. Although personality plays
a part in it, I think it helps to remember that age
does too. Do respond in whatever gentle and
compassionate way that you can, and as Pam said,
eliminate or minimize what causes the upsetness in the
first place. Remember that this too shall pass...it
really does get better over time (be patient and keep
trying)!
My son is now 6 and although we still have different
challenging times, I do find that they occur much less
often. For me personally, I also find that they
happen when I don't "get" what he really wants/needs
(or we have trouble communicating in a way that makes
sense to both of us), or when I am being unreasonable.
I feel like I am always learning...from my own
"learning takes" as well as from others. It really is
a journey that never ends, but we get better at it as
we go along! :)
One other place to look for some information to help
you better connect with your "intense" ds is Danielle
Conger's Spirited Child page
(http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html)
and Unschooling the high need child at
(http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/highneed.html).
Regarding when friends come over and ds is upset
because he wants to play with them too...keep
brainstorming various ideas. Maybe dd and friends
would include ds (for some of the time even)? Could
dd play at friends house instead (at least for some
time until ds is able to be okay when sisters friends
are over)? Is there something ds could do that he
loves to do when friends are over? Just some ideas to
mull over...laurie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Julie Dutt
I appreciate SOOOO much everyone's input. And I'm so glad I'm not
alone. It makes me feel like I can get through this. I've saved all
the emails and will, I'm sure, refer to them often, just for moral
support :O)
I ordered The Explosive Child and Raising your Spirited Child from the
library and can't wait to read them. Just to understand what he may be
feeling will help.
I know that he can grow out of this or rather, learn to cope better.
He is actually very much like my 16 year old dd but when she was young,
I know I didn't handle it well at all. To this day, she has anger
issues and very poor coping skills ~ we are working on them but it is a
slow process. I don't want to make the same mistakes w/ my son.
I do try to head off temper tantrums and really try to understand my
son. I acknowledge his feelings but it doesn't always matter ~ he's
already on his way to meltdown. It can be so exhausting always staying
on my toes ;)
As for the times when dd has a friend over, thank you for the
suggestions to warn him ahead of time and setting up something special
to do during that time. Often, though, friends just stop by and decide
to stay. I'm very relaxed that way and love to have kids over. So,
maybe keeping special projects at the ready will help. And they do
include him for some of the time but at some point, dd really wants to
be alone with her friend.
Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone who responded. :)
julie
alone. It makes me feel like I can get through this. I've saved all
the emails and will, I'm sure, refer to them often, just for moral
support :O)
I ordered The Explosive Child and Raising your Spirited Child from the
library and can't wait to read them. Just to understand what he may be
feeling will help.
I know that he can grow out of this or rather, learn to cope better.
He is actually very much like my 16 year old dd but when she was young,
I know I didn't handle it well at all. To this day, she has anger
issues and very poor coping skills ~ we are working on them but it is a
slow process. I don't want to make the same mistakes w/ my son.
I do try to head off temper tantrums and really try to understand my
son. I acknowledge his feelings but it doesn't always matter ~ he's
already on his way to meltdown. It can be so exhausting always staying
on my toes ;)
As for the times when dd has a friend over, thank you for the
suggestions to warn him ahead of time and setting up something special
to do during that time. Often, though, friends just stop by and decide
to stay. I'm very relaxed that way and love to have kids over. So,
maybe keeping special projects at the ready will help. And they do
include him for some of the time but at some point, dd really wants to
be alone with her friend.
Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone who responded. :)
julie
On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Laurie Wolfrum wrote:
> You are not alone!! There are SO many people who have
> similar challenges (with some of their children) when
> they are around 4 - 5ish. Although personality plays
> a part in it, I think it helps to remember that age
> does too. Do respond in whatever gentle and
> compassionate way that you can, and as Pam said,
> eliminate or minimize what causes the upsetness in the
> first place. Remember that this too shall pass...it
> really does get better over time (be patient and keep
> trying)!
>
> My son is now 6 and although we still have different
> challenging times, I do find that they occur much less
> often. For me personally, I also find that they
> happen when I don't "get" what he really wants/needs
> (or we have trouble communicating in a way that makes
> sense to both of us), or when I am being unreasonable.
> I feel like I am always learning...from my own
> "learning takes" as well as from others. It really is
> a journey that never ends, but we get better at it as
> we go along! :)
>
> One other place to look for some information to help
> you better connect with your "intense" ds is Danielle
> Conger's Spirited Child page
> (http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html)
> and Unschooling the high need child at
> (http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/highneed.html).
>
> Regarding when friends come over and ds is upset
> because he wants to play with them too...keep
> brainstorming various ideas. Maybe dd and friends
> would include ds (for some of the time even)? Could
> dd play at friends house instead (at least for some
> time until ds is able to be okay when sisters friends
> are over)? Is there something ds could do that he
> loves to do when friends are over? Just some ideas to
> mull over...laurie
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Julie
http://bittybraille.com
http://julieannhandmadegoods.com
http://julieann.etsy.com
http://julieann-handmade-goods.blogspot.com
http://indiediner.blogspot.com
http://findingwonder.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amanda Horein
Julie and others,
We had a similar issue with our youngest. We have actually found that her
triggers are not people, places, or things. Her triggers are food.
Her biggest/worst trigger EVER is Red dye #40. This sends her into fits of
anger. She hits, kicks, bites, pinches and anything else you can imagine.
We took her off of Red and Yellow dye back in August. About a week after we
took her off it we had a Pirate Treasure party with candy necklaces. She
ate the whole thing in a matter of 2 minutes and the rest of the night was
hard on all of us. She was filled with extreme anger.
I told my SIL about this incident on a visit a couple days later and they
noticed a huge difference in DD. She was able to concentrate on one thing
for longer than 2 minutes and she didn't continuously jump from toy to toy
to toy. They decided to take my nephew off of red and yellow dye and they
have also noticed a HUGE difference in him. Even his teachers have noticed.
The girl that I babysit's parents have also taken her off the dyes and
noticed a vast improvement. So, if I were going to suggest anything, that
would be the first thing.
We talked to DD too when she was feeling angry about how we thought it was
because of the dyes. Now she wants nothing to do with the dyes and if is
offered something, checks to make sure of the abscence of dyes first.
Even my oldest, who is not sensitive at all will call us on it. It has made
a husge difference in our lives.
Another thing that has had a profound effect on her is High Fructose Corn
Syrup. It makes her hyper.
Our occupational therapist told us that in some kids that she has known,
their triggers have been dairy so it could be a number of things for your
son.
There is an elimination diet that you could try, but my girls are really
picky and I knew that wouldn't go over well so we decided to try things that
others have told us have triggered their kids. We also took her to the
accupunturist who did what I might call the chinese version of an allergy
test and treated her for a couple of things that she had sensitivites too
(which not surprisingly included food dyes and sugar as well as trace
minerals and food sweatners).
HTH!
--
Roger, Amanda, Marti and Lilly
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
1/2 Price Slide shows make GREAT Christmas Presents!
Example Slide shows at
http://server3.inalbum.com/ia30/show/choose2bgr8/
See my pictures at
http://www.HopesCreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com/gallery/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We had a similar issue with our youngest. We have actually found that her
triggers are not people, places, or things. Her triggers are food.
Her biggest/worst trigger EVER is Red dye #40. This sends her into fits of
anger. She hits, kicks, bites, pinches and anything else you can imagine.
We took her off of Red and Yellow dye back in August. About a week after we
took her off it we had a Pirate Treasure party with candy necklaces. She
ate the whole thing in a matter of 2 minutes and the rest of the night was
hard on all of us. She was filled with extreme anger.
I told my SIL about this incident on a visit a couple days later and they
noticed a huge difference in DD. She was able to concentrate on one thing
for longer than 2 minutes and she didn't continuously jump from toy to toy
to toy. They decided to take my nephew off of red and yellow dye and they
have also noticed a HUGE difference in him. Even his teachers have noticed.
The girl that I babysit's parents have also taken her off the dyes and
noticed a vast improvement. So, if I were going to suggest anything, that
would be the first thing.
We talked to DD too when she was feeling angry about how we thought it was
because of the dyes. Now she wants nothing to do with the dyes and if is
offered something, checks to make sure of the abscence of dyes first.
Even my oldest, who is not sensitive at all will call us on it. It has made
a husge difference in our lives.
Another thing that has had a profound effect on her is High Fructose Corn
Syrup. It makes her hyper.
Our occupational therapist told us that in some kids that she has known,
their triggers have been dairy so it could be a number of things for your
son.
There is an elimination diet that you could try, but my girls are really
picky and I knew that wouldn't go over well so we decided to try things that
others have told us have triggered their kids. We also took her to the
accupunturist who did what I might call the chinese version of an allergy
test and treated her for a couple of things that she had sensitivites too
(which not surprisingly included food dyes and sugar as well as trace
minerals and food sweatners).
HTH!
--
Roger, Amanda, Marti and Lilly
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
1/2 Price Slide shows make GREAT Christmas Presents!
Example Slide shows at
http://server3.inalbum.com/ia30/show/choose2bgr8/
See my pictures at
http://www.HopesCreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com/gallery/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
can you tell me a little more about what the acupuncturist did?
thx
faith
thx
faith
On 10/30/07, Amanda Horein <horein@...> wrote:
>
> Julie and others,
>
> We had a similar issue with our youngest. We have actually found that her
> triggers are not people, places, or things. Her triggers are food.
>
> Her biggest/worst trigger EVER is Red dye #40. This sends her into fits of
> anger. She hits, kicks, bites, pinches and anything else you can imagine.
> We took her off of Red and Yellow dye back in August. About a week after
> we
> took her off it we had a Pirate Treasure party with candy necklaces. She
> ate the whole thing in a matter of 2 minutes and the rest of the night was
> hard on all of us. She was filled with extreme anger.
>
> I told my SIL about this incident on a visit a couple days later and they
> noticed a huge difference in DD. She was able to concentrate on one thing
> for longer than 2 minutes and she didn't continuously jump from toy to toy
> to toy. They decided to take my nephew off of red and yellow dye and they
> have also noticed a HUGE difference in him. Even his teachers have
> noticed.
>
> The girl that I babysit's parents have also taken her off the dyes and
> noticed a vast improvement. So, if I were going to suggest anything, that
> would be the first thing.
>
> We talked to DD too when she was feeling angry about how we thought it was
> because of the dyes. Now she wants nothing to do with the dyes and if is
> offered something, checks to make sure of the abscence of dyes first.
>
> Even my oldest, who is not sensitive at all will call us on it. It has
> made
> a husge difference in our lives.
>
> Another thing that has had a profound effect on her is High Fructose Corn
> Syrup. It makes her hyper.
>
> Our occupational therapist told us that in some kids that she has known,
> their triggers have been dairy so it could be a number of things for your
> son.
>
> There is an elimination diet that you could try, but my girls are really
> picky and I knew that wouldn't go over well so we decided to try things
> that
> others have told us have triggered their kids. We also took her to the
> accupunturist who did what I might call the chinese version of an allergy
> test and treated her for a couple of things that she had sensitivites too
> (which not surprisingly included food dyes and sugar as well as trace
> minerals and food sweatners).
>
> HTH!
>
> --
> Roger, Amanda, Marti and Lilly
>
> "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
>
> 1/2 Price Slide shows make GREAT Christmas Presents!
> Example Slide shows at
> http://server3.inalbum.com/ia30/show/choose2bgr8/
> See my pictures at
> http://www.HopesCreations.com
> http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com/gallery/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amanda Horein
-=- can you tell me a little more about what the acupuncturist did?
thx
faith-=-
Faith,
Accupuncture and chinese medicine is a bit beyond my comprehension on the
quantum physics level so I can't explain WHY the things work, just that in
our experience, it does.
So, I sat next to Lilly and touched her arm with my hand and he tested HER
sensitivities THRU me. When she was sensitive to something he would be able
to push my arm down and when she wasn't, my arm stayed strong and
resistant. I didn't believe it until I was actually experiencing it.
For the treatment, he said that kids don't need needles because their veins
and stuff are more near the skin than adults. Anyway, he "scratched" Lilly
in 8 places (elbow area on both arms, thumb area on both hands, near the big
toe on both feet and above the ankle on both sides). That realigned her chi
I guess. All I know is that things have been a TON easier since she has had
the treatments. He told me that when she gets angry I can do the treatment
at home as well and I have and it has calmed her down. If you google
accupuncture you might be able to find the exact places to "scratch".
Another thing that was calming for her was rubbing her ears. Supposedly
every part of your body is linked to a place on your ear. This was very
helpful to her as well.
Hope that helps. I am really not an expert though and I would advise you to
call your local accupuncturist. He or she should be more than willing to
talk to you about it on the phone (usually after hours) to tell you about
it.
--
Roger, Amanda, Marti and Lilly
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
1/2 Price Slide shows make GREAT Christmas Presents!
Example Slide shows at
http://server3.inalbum.com/ia30/show/choose2bgr8/
See my pictures at
http://www.HopesCreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com/gallery/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thx
faith-=-
Faith,
Accupuncture and chinese medicine is a bit beyond my comprehension on the
quantum physics level so I can't explain WHY the things work, just that in
our experience, it does.
So, I sat next to Lilly and touched her arm with my hand and he tested HER
sensitivities THRU me. When she was sensitive to something he would be able
to push my arm down and when she wasn't, my arm stayed strong and
resistant. I didn't believe it until I was actually experiencing it.
For the treatment, he said that kids don't need needles because their veins
and stuff are more near the skin than adults. Anyway, he "scratched" Lilly
in 8 places (elbow area on both arms, thumb area on both hands, near the big
toe on both feet and above the ankle on both sides). That realigned her chi
I guess. All I know is that things have been a TON easier since she has had
the treatments. He told me that when she gets angry I can do the treatment
at home as well and I have and it has calmed her down. If you google
accupuncture you might be able to find the exact places to "scratch".
Another thing that was calming for her was rubbing her ears. Supposedly
every part of your body is linked to a place on your ear. This was very
helpful to her as well.
Hope that helps. I am really not an expert though and I would advise you to
call your local accupuncturist. He or she should be more than willing to
talk to you about it on the phone (usually after hours) to tell you about
it.
--
Roger, Amanda, Marti and Lilly
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
1/2 Price Slide shows make GREAT Christmas Presents!
Example Slide shows at
http://server3.inalbum.com/ia30/show/choose2bgr8/
See my pictures at
http://www.HopesCreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com/gallery/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]