Any non-screen households on this list?
rpindc04
It has helped to read lots of posts about watching tv and playing
electronic and computer games with your kids. They helped create more
ease in our house about those activities.
I wonder if there are readers lurking on this list who do not have much
screen time in their homes. What does that look like for you?
Thanks.
Robbin
electronic and computer games with your kids. They helped create more
ease in our house about those activities.
I wonder if there are readers lurking on this list who do not have much
screen time in their homes. What does that look like for you?
Thanks.
Robbin
[email protected]
Hi,
My kids are 4 and almost 7. We don't watch much T.V except for an occasional
video. It is just carried over from when my oldest was in school. I had a
rule about no T.V during the week and it has stuck since. They play(and fight)
a lot together and we hang out in the backyard pretty much. They just like to
play more than anything right now. Not showing much interest in the pc yet,
but I'm sure that day will come:)
Cheers
Susan
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My kids are 4 and almost 7. We don't watch much T.V except for an occasional
video. It is just carried over from when my oldest was in school. I had a
rule about no T.V during the week and it has stuck since. They play(and fight)
a lot together and we hang out in the backyard pretty much. They just like to
play more than anything right now. Not showing much interest in the pc yet,
but I'm sure that day will come:)
Cheers
Susan
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Allison
We don't have much screen time. We don't have cable so there's not too
much on that intrests the kids. I don't watch much either, usually
just the news. Occassionaly we watch a video together. We do have a
playstation, but they really don't seem too intrested in that either,
which is fine by me. We have a gameboy, at first they wanted to play
it alot, now they have pretty much forgotten about it. My 10yods has
just started to ask to play the computer. I let him occassionaly,
maybe a few times a week. We play alot of games: board games, cards
and puzzles. We also spend a few hours a day outside everyday.
much on that intrests the kids. I don't watch much either, usually
just the news. Occassionaly we watch a video together. We do have a
playstation, but they really don't seem too intrested in that either,
which is fine by me. We have a gameboy, at first they wanted to play
it alot, now they have pretty much forgotten about it. My 10yods has
just started to ask to play the computer. I let him occassionaly,
maybe a few times a week. We play alot of games: board games, cards
and puzzles. We also spend a few hours a day outside everyday.
[email protected]
We're not exactly a non-screen family, but we do have limits. If the
computer is used, I limit the time to about an hour or so. For the TV, I am much
more lenient. On certain days, the TV is on most of the day. On others, I just ke
ep it off. We don't have any video game systems in our house.
Some would say that I don't follow the unschooling philosophy, but I try to
protect my kids from the addictive nature of video games. If they started
showing signs of TV addiction, I would do the same thing. There are times when I
need to consciously avoid the TV and computer because I feel addicted to
them. I'm not saying that others need to conform to my ideas, but this is how I
feel about them.
Shari
Wife to Ken
Mom to Nathan (9 years)
and Katie (3.5 years)
_http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com_
(http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com/)
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
computer is used, I limit the time to about an hour or so. For the TV, I am much
more lenient. On certain days, the TV is on most of the day. On others, I just ke
ep it off. We don't have any video game systems in our house.
Some would say that I don't follow the unschooling philosophy, but I try to
protect my kids from the addictive nature of video games. If they started
showing signs of TV addiction, I would do the same thing. There are times when I
need to consciously avoid the TV and computer because I feel addicted to
them. I'm not saying that others need to conform to my ideas, but this is how I
feel about them.
Shari
Wife to Ken
Mom to Nathan (9 years)
and Katie (3.5 years)
_http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com_
(http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com/)
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
asmb65
Our kids are 6 and 3. We don't own a TV. Neither dh or I ever have (and
we're in our mid-40s). We both had TVs in our family homes growing up
with no restrictions. There are just so many other things I'd rather be
doing. Once the kids become aware of TV and start asking for one, we'll
get one. None of their closest playmates have TVs so my kids have only
seen them in stores and at a couple of relatives who live in other
parts of the country. Once when their Grandma's TV was on, my oldest
kept saying to his cousins, "Come on let's play." until one of them
did. So far, they haven't seemed to want one but I know that will
change. When we do get one I won't restrict them in their viewing.
The other Susan
we're in our mid-40s). We both had TVs in our family homes growing up
with no restrictions. There are just so many other things I'd rather be
doing. Once the kids become aware of TV and start asking for one, we'll
get one. None of their closest playmates have TVs so my kids have only
seen them in stores and at a couple of relatives who live in other
parts of the country. Once when their Grandma's TV was on, my oldest
kept saying to his cousins, "Come on let's play." until one of them
did. So far, they haven't seemed to want one but I know that will
change. When we do get one I won't restrict them in their viewing.
The other Susan
asmb65
yeah, we're outside most of the day too and also play lots of board
games. We must own 20-30 board games. Luckily we have a toy library in
town with lots of good stuff so without spending any money (well
$20/year for membership) the kids get new things every month.
Got to get back outside - the kids are riding their bikes over a drop-
off into a leaf pile.
The other Susan
games. We must own 20-30 board games. Luckily we have a toy library in
town with lots of good stuff so without spending any money (well
$20/year for membership) the kids get new things every month.
Got to get back outside - the kids are riding their bikes over a drop-
off into a leaf pile.
The other Susan
Ren Allen
~~I had a
rule about no T.V during the week and it has stuck since. ~~
Rules stink that way. People quit questioning how much sense they make
and just blindly follow them. Kids won't do that for always though.
Maybe it's time to re-think the arbitrary nature of forbidding anyone
from something.
Unschooling tends to unfold best in an atmosphere of trust. If a
parent is controlling choices, there tends to be less trust.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
rule about no T.V during the week and it has stuck since. ~~
Rules stink that way. People quit questioning how much sense they make
and just blindly follow them. Kids won't do that for always though.
Maybe it's time to re-think the arbitrary nature of forbidding anyone
from something.
Unschooling tends to unfold best in an atmosphere of trust. If a
parent is controlling choices, there tends to be less trust.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 26, 2007, at 11:22 AM, sharilynn29@... wrote:
addiction.
If that is so, then why would you listen to a word we say? We're
dangerous. We care more about adhering to a philosophy than we do
about our kids.
If something about that sounds off, then the other possibility is
that we care just as much as you do but we know -- not just believe!
-- that video games and TV are not addictive.
There are families with kids here who had restrictions and the
parents were convinced their kids were addicted. They found that by
removing the restrictions, after some time, the supposed addiction
was cured.
(Though kids often do go through a period of glut after restrictions
are removed. It's also typical for preteens to increase their TV
viewing. And some kids do watch more than their parents feel is
"necessary" (but their parents need to get over that!))
Giving an alcoholic or drug addict free access to the drug of their
choice would not cure them.
There's a lot to read here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
scroll down on the left side.
It wasn't addiction. It was a need for connection and a need to have
alone time (I'm a huge introvert) that wasn't being fulfilled. Now
that my daughter is older and I have time for myself I don't need it
as much and can actually just check once in the morning now.
People use TV and the internet (and sex and food and book collecting
and so on) to meet unmet needs. The actions can look like addiction,
but the motivations are completely different. Sometimes the solutions
are soothing but don't fix the problem so they do more to the point
where the solution is a problem.
(Unread books falling off my shelves? Where?)
It helps people think more clearly about solutions when they see the
problems clearly. Confusing a need with an addiction doesn't help
people think clearly about a problem.
on deep thought, discussion and knowledge, holding these problems up
to the light of day and truly examining them despite our fears,
despite our need to knee jerk react to those fears to protect our
children.
We all care about our children as much as you do. We don't want "TV
addicts" any more than you do. We aren't just crossing our fingers
and hoping they don't get addicted just because we want to give them
freedom. We know from personal experience that kids who are living
full lives, with TV and internet and video games a part of that,
don't become "addicted". TV and so on is just another activity to do
or not do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Some would say that I don't follow the unschooling philosophy, butWhich is saying the rest of us are not protecting our kids from
> I try to
> protect my kids from the addictive nature of video games.
addiction.
If that is so, then why would you listen to a word we say? We're
dangerous. We care more about adhering to a philosophy than we do
about our kids.
If something about that sounds off, then the other possibility is
that we care just as much as you do but we know -- not just believe!
-- that video games and TV are not addictive.
There are families with kids here who had restrictions and the
parents were convinced their kids were addicted. They found that by
removing the restrictions, after some time, the supposed addiction
was cured.
(Though kids often do go through a period of glut after restrictions
are removed. It's also typical for preteens to increase their TV
viewing. And some kids do watch more than their parents feel is
"necessary" (but their parents need to get over that!))
Giving an alcoholic or drug addict free access to the drug of their
choice would not cure them.
> If they startedTV addiction is a myth.
> showing signs of TV addiction, I would do the same thing.
There's a lot to read here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
scroll down on the left side.
> There are times when II too felt addicted to email for years. Now, not so much.
> need to consciously avoid the TV and computer because I feel
> addicted to
> them.
It wasn't addiction. It was a need for connection and a need to have
alone time (I'm a huge introvert) that wasn't being fulfilled. Now
that my daughter is older and I have time for myself I don't need it
as much and can actually just check once in the morning now.
People use TV and the internet (and sex and food and book collecting
and so on) to meet unmet needs. The actions can look like addiction,
but the motivations are completely different. Sometimes the solutions
are soothing but don't fix the problem so they do more to the point
where the solution is a problem.
(Unread books falling off my shelves? Where?)
It helps people think more clearly about solutions when they see the
problems clearly. Confusing a need with an addiction doesn't help
people think clearly about a problem.
> I'm not saying that others need to conform to my ideas, but this isThe huge difference is we're not going by our feelings. We're acting
> how I
> feel about them.
>
on deep thought, discussion and knowledge, holding these problems up
to the light of day and truly examining them despite our fears,
despite our need to knee jerk react to those fears to protect our
children.
We all care about our children as much as you do. We don't want "TV
addicts" any more than you do. We aren't just crossing our fingers
and hoping they don't get addicted just because we want to give them
freedom. We know from personal experience that kids who are living
full lives, with TV and internet and video games a part of that,
don't become "addicted". TV and so on is just another activity to do
or not do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Some would say that I don't follow the unschooling philosophy, but I
try to protect my kids from the addictive nature of video games. If
they started showing signs of TV addiction, I would do the same
thing. ~~
WHat if they show signs of book addiction? Will you rid your home of
books and start limiting time? Because I had my nose in a book ALL the
time as a kid and I'm pretty sure you could label it an addiction if
you are referring to amount of time spent on an activity (which is NOT
an addiction in my book).
I think it's incredibly disrespectful to control other human beings. I
think it's incredibly disrespectful to label their interest and
passion an "addiction". I would really resent it if someone else
treated my desires that way.
It's not about following the unschooling philosophy. It's just about
what kind of atmosphere helps learning unfold better.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
try to protect my kids from the addictive nature of video games. If
they started showing signs of TV addiction, I would do the same
thing. ~~
WHat if they show signs of book addiction? Will you rid your home of
books and start limiting time? Because I had my nose in a book ALL the
time as a kid and I'm pretty sure you could label it an addiction if
you are referring to amount of time spent on an activity (which is NOT
an addiction in my book).
I think it's incredibly disrespectful to control other human beings. I
think it's incredibly disrespectful to label their interest and
passion an "addiction". I would really resent it if someone else
treated my desires that way.
It's not about following the unschooling philosophy. It's just about
what kind of atmosphere helps learning unfold better.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Jamie Murray
I use the TV and the computer as a means for my son to learn. My son loves to watch PBS sprout. Although, the TV maybe on 24/7 pratically, my son doesn't watch TV most of the time. But he's found ways to play, watch TV, learn, and other activities at his own pace and time. I let him decide when and what to do. Only structure we have is meals and sleeping schedules and even those have been known to change slightly from time to time. My son loves to learn. He's not even 4 yrs old yet, and he knows quite a bit more than the average child. We are currently in the process of learning to read. He knows his letters, knows some short words and his name. He's even has done a type of exercise program to the TV. He loves the care bears and one of his care bear videos has an exercise video. Not all may agree with allowing him the freedom he has, altho, he can be quite busy most of the time. Just curious, how does one deal with trying to homeschool and babysitting most of the day? I feel we haven't done much the last couple weeks, since I started to babysit another little boy that's my son's age. Most of the time it feels like they are playing and and even fighting. I've lost count on them hitting and bitting. Which seems to be something that's getting better, but I still deal with it everyday (M-F).
Jamie
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:59 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Any non-screen households on this list?
~~Some would say that I don't follow the unschooling philosophy, but I
try to protect my kids from the addictive nature of video games. If
they started showing signs of TV addiction, I would do the same
thing. ~~
WHat if they show signs of book addiction? Will you rid your home of
books and start limiting time? Because I had my nose in a book ALL the
time as a kid and I'm pretty sure you could label it an addiction if
you are referring to amount of time spent on an activity (which is NOT
an addiction in my book).
I think it's incredibly disrespectful to control other human beings. I
think it's incredibly disrespectful to label their interest and
passion an "addiction". I would really resent it if someone else
treated my desires that way.
It's not about following the unschooling philosophy. It's just about
what kind of atmosphere helps learning unfold better.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
Instead of putting our focus on whether or not the kids are watching
too much, we can put our focus on supporting their interests and
offering them lots and lots of possible experiences. If their
interests include tv-watching, then far from restricting them,
instead, I supported that interest. I did that by enthusiastically
watching with them, playing tv-show based games online or as
videogames, getting tv-based hands-on games and toys and puzzles,
noticing when there might be a "special" on tv they'd want to watch,
noticing which shows they really liked and finding all kinds of tie-
ins (use Google to look for all kinds of things related to their
favorite tv shows), bring up things happening in their favorite shows
when you're having conversations about other things, dress up like
the tv show characters for Halloween or just for fun anytime, get
books and coloring books and activity books that are related, BUYING
whole seasons of their favorite shows, getting cd's of the music from
their shows, getting books based on the shows or on which the shows
are based, AND finding creative ways of extending some of the
inevitable connections that every show brings up.
Maybe sometimes people really just can't imagine how to respond to tv
in a way more consistent with showing the deep underlying trust in
our children on which unschooling is based.
For those restricting tv, maybe just try this as an experiment. Next
time you have the urge to make them turn it off, instead, look for a
way to support their interest and enrich their lives. A simple and
obvious way is to go cuddle up with them and enjoy watching together.
Ask questions, get involved. Maybe join them with a cup of cocoa and
some cookies. Or get online and look for connections to offer. Choose
your time - don't interrupt, but in between shows you can say, "Oh,
look, I found these Sponge Bob coloring pages for you and I brought
you some crayons, if you're interested." And, talk about the show,
"Did you know that the guy who made up SpongeBob is a real marine
biologist?" Or, "I wonder why he didn't make SpongeBob look more like
a real sea sponge? I mean, he looks like a kitchen sponge." (You can
buy a piece of sea sponge at a craft store or in paint dept of Home
Depot - get some and have fun sponge painting with it.)
Decide to take that moment to SHOW you honor and support their
choices. I wish I could get across to parents of younger children how
VERY wonderful it will be for you when your kids are teens if you
have created that atmosphere of real trust. Don't you want to end up
with teens who live up to that confidence you've shown in them? You
undermine it every time you show your lack of trust - every time you
arbitrarily restrict tv you are telling them, "I don't trust you to
know what's good for you." Instead, start from the beginning saying,
"I trust your choices and will support them." This is not trivial;
this is building the relationship you will have in a few years and
during a time of life when most parents lose that closeness and
honesty and confidence in their own teens. If you restrict tv now,
will you try to restrict them from the things they want when they are
teens, too? It won't work and everyone knows it, but parents don't
know what else to do. They act like they can control their teenagers,
but that is so obviously not true, teens whose parents are
restrictive will often put themselves in much more risky situations
than otherwise. Start trusting them now if that is the relationship
you hope to have when they are teens. You can't just manufacture it
later, it is built on years of showing trust and confidence and
support of their interests.
-pam
too much, we can put our focus on supporting their interests and
offering them lots and lots of possible experiences. If their
interests include tv-watching, then far from restricting them,
instead, I supported that interest. I did that by enthusiastically
watching with them, playing tv-show based games online or as
videogames, getting tv-based hands-on games and toys and puzzles,
noticing when there might be a "special" on tv they'd want to watch,
noticing which shows they really liked and finding all kinds of tie-
ins (use Google to look for all kinds of things related to their
favorite tv shows), bring up things happening in their favorite shows
when you're having conversations about other things, dress up like
the tv show characters for Halloween or just for fun anytime, get
books and coloring books and activity books that are related, BUYING
whole seasons of their favorite shows, getting cd's of the music from
their shows, getting books based on the shows or on which the shows
are based, AND finding creative ways of extending some of the
inevitable connections that every show brings up.
Maybe sometimes people really just can't imagine how to respond to tv
in a way more consistent with showing the deep underlying trust in
our children on which unschooling is based.
For those restricting tv, maybe just try this as an experiment. Next
time you have the urge to make them turn it off, instead, look for a
way to support their interest and enrich their lives. A simple and
obvious way is to go cuddle up with them and enjoy watching together.
Ask questions, get involved. Maybe join them with a cup of cocoa and
some cookies. Or get online and look for connections to offer. Choose
your time - don't interrupt, but in between shows you can say, "Oh,
look, I found these Sponge Bob coloring pages for you and I brought
you some crayons, if you're interested." And, talk about the show,
"Did you know that the guy who made up SpongeBob is a real marine
biologist?" Or, "I wonder why he didn't make SpongeBob look more like
a real sea sponge? I mean, he looks like a kitchen sponge." (You can
buy a piece of sea sponge at a craft store or in paint dept of Home
Depot - get some and have fun sponge painting with it.)
Decide to take that moment to SHOW you honor and support their
choices. I wish I could get across to parents of younger children how
VERY wonderful it will be for you when your kids are teens if you
have created that atmosphere of real trust. Don't you want to end up
with teens who live up to that confidence you've shown in them? You
undermine it every time you show your lack of trust - every time you
arbitrarily restrict tv you are telling them, "I don't trust you to
know what's good for you." Instead, start from the beginning saying,
"I trust your choices and will support them." This is not trivial;
this is building the relationship you will have in a few years and
during a time of life when most parents lose that closeness and
honesty and confidence in their own teens. If you restrict tv now,
will you try to restrict them from the things they want when they are
teens, too? It won't work and everyone knows it, but parents don't
know what else to do. They act like they can control their teenagers,
but that is so obviously not true, teens whose parents are
restrictive will often put themselves in much more risky situations
than otherwise. Start trusting them now if that is the relationship
you hope to have when they are teens. You can't just manufacture it
later, it is built on years of showing trust and confidence and
support of their interests.
-pam
trektheory
I haven't read all the responses, just a quick scan, and noticed a
number of people responding who have younger kids.
Our family has changed screen time over time. What is appropriate for
a teen is not necessarily right for a 2 yr old. (Just like quantity
of food -- if you have a teenaged boy, you know that they eat a LOT
more food than any toddler.
When ds was very young, and all the neighbors were plopping their kids
in front of Sesame Street and Barney, I was playing with my ds. We
turned S.S. on once, for about 2-3 minutes. They started out with a
nice, gentle segment showing African animals -- got his attention.
But all too soon, they went to baby-MTV mode, flashing this and that
so fast. I think it is well designed to shorten attention spans, not
what I wanted for ds. Besides, he didn't like the flashy bit -- he
was a study-and-absorb kind of tot. He walked away, I turned off the
tube, and we never tried Sesame Street again.
When he was about 2, in February, he came down with a cold, and was
listless, and asked to watch the Grinch. So, in February, we watched
How the Grinch Stole Christmas several times.
We taped the Shining Time Station stuff and edited out the idiocy, and
just watched the Thomas the Tank Engine stuff -- he was a Thomas fan,
we had all the books, etc. Again, this wasn't a huge part of his
life. And -- we watched together. I don't recall ever using the tv
as an electronic babysitter.
But much of what dh and I watched was, at the time, too intense for
our sensitive guy. So we time-shifted with the vcr, and watched while
ds slept.
As he got older, though, there were things we were eager to share with
him, such as Star Trek. (That was a lot later, btw, because, well, he
was so sensitive, and freaked at it at a much later age than many kids
these days.)
Now we watch a fair amount, but still as a family. We find it
enjoyable together time, and often discuss the shows. (Generally,
they are taped ahead of time, so we can skip commercials.)
The other screen -- the computer -- we didn't officially limit, but it
was fairly self-limiting when he was young. We didn't use a lot of
kiddie software, so it held little attraction. DS was active, and had
lots to occupy himself without the screen.
As he got older, I occasionally imposed a computer restriction when I
saw it adversely affecting his behavior. The usual reaction was, "I'm
bored..." then -- a burst of creativity in many diverse areas.
We've never had official time limits on hours/day or whatever. Now,
ds wants to be a programmer, preferably game programmer. Obviously,
he needs the 'puter to make his games. The ONLY restriction we have
is on Runescape. And the way we set it up is we essentially gave him
a time budget -- so many hours/month, so many per year. He has a log
sheet to help keep track. He agreed that it was fair (and we had a
pretty generous "income" of time for him.) Since we instituted the
budget system, things got back into balance. We didn't want to cut
him off cold turkey -- forbidden fruit always tastes so sweet. But it
was making him off-balanced, and I think, if you asked him, he might
agree. (He currently is away at a scout volunteer activity, so I
can't ask him now.) Does he play a fair amount of Runescape still --
yup. But he spends as much or more time on the 'puter working on his
games - graphics, scripting, that sort of thing. (And, as an added
benefit, his knowledge of graphics is much better than mine, and he
was able to help me figure out a solution to importing pdf files into
Publisher for my newsletter. I love it when kids see the real value
to their efforts.)
I suspect you weren't looking for this level of detailed response! Be
careful what you ask for.... ;-)
Linda
--- In [email protected], "rpindc04" <robbin_mp@...>
wrote:
number of people responding who have younger kids.
Our family has changed screen time over time. What is appropriate for
a teen is not necessarily right for a 2 yr old. (Just like quantity
of food -- if you have a teenaged boy, you know that they eat a LOT
more food than any toddler.
When ds was very young, and all the neighbors were plopping their kids
in front of Sesame Street and Barney, I was playing with my ds. We
turned S.S. on once, for about 2-3 minutes. They started out with a
nice, gentle segment showing African animals -- got his attention.
But all too soon, they went to baby-MTV mode, flashing this and that
so fast. I think it is well designed to shorten attention spans, not
what I wanted for ds. Besides, he didn't like the flashy bit -- he
was a study-and-absorb kind of tot. He walked away, I turned off the
tube, and we never tried Sesame Street again.
When he was about 2, in February, he came down with a cold, and was
listless, and asked to watch the Grinch. So, in February, we watched
How the Grinch Stole Christmas several times.
We taped the Shining Time Station stuff and edited out the idiocy, and
just watched the Thomas the Tank Engine stuff -- he was a Thomas fan,
we had all the books, etc. Again, this wasn't a huge part of his
life. And -- we watched together. I don't recall ever using the tv
as an electronic babysitter.
But much of what dh and I watched was, at the time, too intense for
our sensitive guy. So we time-shifted with the vcr, and watched while
ds slept.
As he got older, though, there were things we were eager to share with
him, such as Star Trek. (That was a lot later, btw, because, well, he
was so sensitive, and freaked at it at a much later age than many kids
these days.)
Now we watch a fair amount, but still as a family. We find it
enjoyable together time, and often discuss the shows. (Generally,
they are taped ahead of time, so we can skip commercials.)
The other screen -- the computer -- we didn't officially limit, but it
was fairly self-limiting when he was young. We didn't use a lot of
kiddie software, so it held little attraction. DS was active, and had
lots to occupy himself without the screen.
As he got older, I occasionally imposed a computer restriction when I
saw it adversely affecting his behavior. The usual reaction was, "I'm
bored..." then -- a burst of creativity in many diverse areas.
We've never had official time limits on hours/day or whatever. Now,
ds wants to be a programmer, preferably game programmer. Obviously,
he needs the 'puter to make his games. The ONLY restriction we have
is on Runescape. And the way we set it up is we essentially gave him
a time budget -- so many hours/month, so many per year. He has a log
sheet to help keep track. He agreed that it was fair (and we had a
pretty generous "income" of time for him.) Since we instituted the
budget system, things got back into balance. We didn't want to cut
him off cold turkey -- forbidden fruit always tastes so sweet. But it
was making him off-balanced, and I think, if you asked him, he might
agree. (He currently is away at a scout volunteer activity, so I
can't ask him now.) Does he play a fair amount of Runescape still --
yup. But he spends as much or more time on the 'puter working on his
games - graphics, scripting, that sort of thing. (And, as an added
benefit, his knowledge of graphics is much better than mine, and he
was able to help me figure out a solution to importing pdf files into
Publisher for my newsletter. I love it when kids see the real value
to their efforts.)
I suspect you weren't looking for this level of detailed response! Be
careful what you ask for.... ;-)
Linda
--- In [email protected], "rpindc04" <robbin_mp@...>
wrote:
>
> It has helped to read lots of posts about watching tv and playing
> electronic and computer games with your kids. They helped create more
> ease in our house about those activities.
>
> I wonder if there are readers lurking on this list who do not have much
> screen time in their homes. What does that look like for you?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Robbin
>
guideforthree
> I wonder if there are readers lurking on this list who do not havemuch
> screen time in their homes. What does that look like for you?There was a six year time period when we did not have cable or an
antenna - just videos. Anytime we went anywhere that had television my
husband and children became instant tv zombies. We now have a PS2 and
cable. Now that the tv is not a scarce resource, my zombies are coming
back to life. We go days without turning on the television just
because we have better things to do -- like cutting bamboo, walking to
the library, going to the zoo/park/museum, reading, or seeing just how
big of a mess can be made in the bedroom. Most days we're just too
busy to turn on the tv.
Tina
sharon currie
Well said Tina.
"Anytime we went anywhere that had television my husband and children became instant tv zombies. We now have a PS2 and cable. Now that the tv is not a scarce resource, my zombies are coming back to life. We go days without turning on the television just
because we have better things to do -- like cutting bamboo, walking to
the library, going to the zoo/park/museum, reading, or seeing just how
big of a mess can be made in the bedroom. Most days we're just too
busy to turn on the tv."
I can totally understand how some parents still cannot see tv as a learning tool, but rather tv is seen more like as a form of entertainment instead. Yes, I supposed being addicted to entertainment can be bad, especially when you're too busy having fun, not learning all those necessary survival skills of readng writing or maths or cooking or exercising our body. But I would like to say, have a think about this. When they grow up, will they get stuck in front of a tv, when they are at a friends place, when they are 15 or 16 yrs old, when you are no longer to monitor/ control them?
My answer is always "I don't know". Therefore, no reason to control/ monitor him now, as I want to be sure that all the decisions that my son makes, from now onwards, is his own. I do not want surprises when he's 15, where he's might do a total "flip", just like all my friends teenage kids' done. Why the surprise? That's because when they are teen, they all of a sudden realised they have a choice, the choice to listen to mum/ dad, or the choice to follow thier heart. Naturally the heart always wins. Which explains the moans of "they are not doing what they always do; this is so unlike them; I don't know why he has changed" "they won't listen!" . That's because "what they always do", is not thier choice but merely the adults (parents, relatives, society).
So what are you going to do then, when they suddenly wouldn't bulge from the tv and they are too big for you to sent to thier room?
Sometimes, it's worth considering the option to just "let go" and surrender to it? Then the "fear of addiction for electronic media being bad for our children" will simply melt away. It can be a very scary, giving in to something that is so very alien, so bad. But you have to look forward, and think of the scenario/ environment your children will be living in. Electronic is becoming more and more involved in our life. Even Sony PSP is being introduced as a value-enhancing educating tool in school. In Maths, learning about the calculator is a legit topic on it's own! I bet when it first came out, it was considered evil too.
I know some of us might argue that a calculator screen cannot be compared to a tv screen. Why not? Well for one, it doeans't entertain. And it hasn't got a big screen, spewing out all those zombifying coloured pixels.
Ah....nevertheless, coloured screen or not, the calculator is still after all "a medium of easy access to information" without our brain having to work hard. A short cut that only required our eyes and fingers. And it doesn't requires the conversation (but yet it can ceate conversations/ discussions opportunities, just like the tv) With a calculator, we learnt of the maths answer without having to stretch our brains, just the same as the tv, an easy source of information with having to rake thru an encyclopedia.
Isn't this bad for the brain? It'll just zombiefied them? Not at all, on contrary, I believe my son's brain is working even faster when he's watching any screen, because his brain is busy absorbing, making sense, cross referencing info and storing for later use. This is evident because very often, discussions can be strike-up about a certain scenario we watched on the tv, liinking it to another similar life situation.
I just think any electronic media be it tv or pc or calculator allows faster learning, leaving my child more time to do other things. In a way, it's like "better time management". Having to utilised the minimal time resources for maximum gain of knowledge, leaves him more time to concentrate on harder things that cannot be achieved via the tv or pc. Like jumping on the trampoline, gardening, running around like a mad cave man, painting, or playing with toys, which will eventually happen, when his brain had enough and would like to take "a break from learning".
SharonC
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Anytime we went anywhere that had television my husband and children became instant tv zombies. We now have a PS2 and cable. Now that the tv is not a scarce resource, my zombies are coming back to life. We go days without turning on the television just
because we have better things to do -- like cutting bamboo, walking to
the library, going to the zoo/park/museum, reading, or seeing just how
big of a mess can be made in the bedroom. Most days we're just too
busy to turn on the tv."
I can totally understand how some parents still cannot see tv as a learning tool, but rather tv is seen more like as a form of entertainment instead. Yes, I supposed being addicted to entertainment can be bad, especially when you're too busy having fun, not learning all those necessary survival skills of readng writing or maths or cooking or exercising our body. But I would like to say, have a think about this. When they grow up, will they get stuck in front of a tv, when they are at a friends place, when they are 15 or 16 yrs old, when you are no longer to monitor/ control them?
My answer is always "I don't know". Therefore, no reason to control/ monitor him now, as I want to be sure that all the decisions that my son makes, from now onwards, is his own. I do not want surprises when he's 15, where he's might do a total "flip", just like all my friends teenage kids' done. Why the surprise? That's because when they are teen, they all of a sudden realised they have a choice, the choice to listen to mum/ dad, or the choice to follow thier heart. Naturally the heart always wins. Which explains the moans of "they are not doing what they always do; this is so unlike them; I don't know why he has changed" "they won't listen!" . That's because "what they always do", is not thier choice but merely the adults (parents, relatives, society).
So what are you going to do then, when they suddenly wouldn't bulge from the tv and they are too big for you to sent to thier room?
Sometimes, it's worth considering the option to just "let go" and surrender to it? Then the "fear of addiction for electronic media being bad for our children" will simply melt away. It can be a very scary, giving in to something that is so very alien, so bad. But you have to look forward, and think of the scenario/ environment your children will be living in. Electronic is becoming more and more involved in our life. Even Sony PSP is being introduced as a value-enhancing educating tool in school. In Maths, learning about the calculator is a legit topic on it's own! I bet when it first came out, it was considered evil too.
I know some of us might argue that a calculator screen cannot be compared to a tv screen. Why not? Well for one, it doeans't entertain. And it hasn't got a big screen, spewing out all those zombifying coloured pixels.
Ah....nevertheless, coloured screen or not, the calculator is still after all "a medium of easy access to information" without our brain having to work hard. A short cut that only required our eyes and fingers. And it doesn't requires the conversation (but yet it can ceate conversations/ discussions opportunities, just like the tv) With a calculator, we learnt of the maths answer without having to stretch our brains, just the same as the tv, an easy source of information with having to rake thru an encyclopedia.
Isn't this bad for the brain? It'll just zombiefied them? Not at all, on contrary, I believe my son's brain is working even faster when he's watching any screen, because his brain is busy absorbing, making sense, cross referencing info and storing for later use. This is evident because very often, discussions can be strike-up about a certain scenario we watched on the tv, liinking it to another similar life situation.
I just think any electronic media be it tv or pc or calculator allows faster learning, leaving my child more time to do other things. In a way, it's like "better time management". Having to utilised the minimal time resources for maximum gain of knowledge, leaves him more time to concentrate on harder things that cannot be achieved via the tv or pc. Like jumping on the trampoline, gardening, running around like a mad cave man, painting, or playing with toys, which will eventually happen, when his brain had enough and would like to take "a break from learning".
SharonC
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyeping2607
--- In [email protected], sharilynn29@... wrote:>
We're not exactly a non-screen family, but we do have limits. If the
computer is used, I limit the time to about an hour or so. For the
TV, I am much more lenient. On certain days, the TV is on most of the
day. On others, I just keep it off. We don't have any video game
systems in our house.> Some would say that I don't follow the
unschooling philosophy, but I try to protect my kids from the
addictive nature of video games. If they started showing signs of TV
addiction, I would do the same thing. There are times when I need to
consciously avoid the TV and computer because I feel addicted to
them. I'm not saying that others need to conform to my ideas, but
this is how I feel about them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm writing this in defence of sharilynn29.
I was really upset by 2 particular reply, which I felt was a little
bit harsh and vey critical of sharilynn29's belief,
And it's not only this post. Like many post before, I've noticed
parents with good intentions posting thier advice and opinion, gets
critisized for non "unschooling" praticises.
The origin of this topic, I assumed was someone asking for support
from other unschooling non-screen families, and perhaps wanting a
better insight of these families work around thier tv issues and a
little bit of support. And many did reply, offering scenarios of
thier approach to tv, some are very suportive of tv, some not so,
which was great, because now the person have a wide choice of options
to mull about. For those of us who is supportive of tv, I suppose we
would all love to "share" our joy in finding the freedom and benefit
of tv watching. And for a non-screen parent to offer some insights of
how thier "limited screen time" work in thier lives, it is offered in
good faith. I don't think it's fair for anyone to start critising
them, for what they believe. I've re-read the post many times, and in
no way did sharilynn29 above said or implied we "tv believing"
parents is wrong and failing our children. She believes in what she
constitudes to be addictive behaviour in her children, and is doing
what she believes is best for her children. But that doeasn't mean
she felt we "tv believing parents" was irreponsible to allow our
children to be tv- addict zombie. I don't think anybody should take
it as a personal insult! She was merely stating what she believes is
working for them. (How and why, we won't know because we are not part
of her family). And that to her the tv can invoke the addicitive
element, in her and her children and she's found a way to balance
that. And this is possible. I have known of some children or adults
who's just not interested in tvs or pc at all, what luck for the
parents!!
What I'm trying to say is, if we can accord such courtesy and respect
to our unschooling children, that we do allow them to make mistakes
and not critisized them for it. Why can we do the same for other
parents? And that we all believed we shouldn't impose our opinions,
likes and dislikes onto our children, why then are some of us,
stating so strong of our disagreement of another parents point of
view? And that to disecting, analysing and critisizing thier words/
actions of not being able to relinquish full control and trust to
thier child?
Description of the frnt page of Unschoolingbasics.
"A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask
experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out
how unschooling works in real families.
If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin
or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you
to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural
learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues
to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the
issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how
to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle"
Nowhere did it say, if you're not 100% unschooling, you're not
welcome. Nowhere did it say, if you're still unsure about going 100%
unschooling, your non-unschooling ideas that worked for you, might
get critised. Is it right that I should worry about sharing some of
my experience or post my ignorant non -unschooling opinions, and face
the possibility of being critized? I do get very upset if I'm
critised because it's basically telling me I'm not good enough. Or
that my ideas are rubbish. I get very upset seeng other parents being
critised because I see it as bullying, and not the "constructive
critism" as one might try to defend it.
It makes me question how much freedom am I allowed to share my
problems, experience and beliefs on this list, without getting a
sharp reprove? What works for my family, might not work for another,
but then maybe, just maybe, my answer might be able to provide some
better alternative ideas, some comfort or perhaps support.
Does this means if I'm not ready to release full control to my son
with regards to tv or anything for that matter, does that invalidate
all these unschooling living that we've been doing for the past 11
months?
I believe it is thru all our differences replies, with our many
different views and different comfort level of unschooling, with our
many different ways of releasing trust to our children, is what
allows us all to learnt more, off each other. And it is possible some
families have unschool so well that they do not feel they have
anything more to learnt off others. But yet, it is thru all these
dfferent stories of unschooling, some of you a "successful" 110%,
some a "almost there" 70%, some "a confident and picking up speed"
50% and some maybe just "a slow and still uncertain" 30%, that help
many of us to push forth.
The last thing we need when appealing to this list for comfort and
support, or share "well meaning" non-schooling ways of doing things,
to help further ease the burden and scary journey into "letting go of
central command", is being told we're not unschooling enough, or that
we're failing our children because of not being able to release full
control to him! What a slap to the face and confidence!
The fact that some of us is accessing this list, is proving enough
that we all want to unschool successfully, and is trying our bestest
to improve and undo all our bad parenting habit, by constantly try
to find ways that doesn't spook us.
I think it's only fair that everyone is allowed to post and received
any message, no matter how silly/ non-unschooling it is, without any
prejudice. And that we are allowed the full freedom and the trust
that we will know what's best for our children and will eventually
learn to let go, slow but surely.
I am currently helping a friend (a very traditional, no tv, no
gamebox person) and her 9 yr old to unschool. And I very frequently
tells her it's ok and it's not the end of the world if she's chickens
out of relinquishing certain control back to her very active son, who
happens to be de-schooling big time with lots of gamebox, swearing
and shouting. And that it's ok to only give a tiny bit of control to
the son and not alot, if that's what's she's comfrotable doing, for a
start. I very often points it out to her, that it's she who's having
a bad time de-schooling/ unschooling, and not her son. That she's the
one, who's scared, and not her son. And that she really wants to
unschool because she's convinced it is for better, but yet, she's
fnding it very very scary and hard. My words to her is "Don't be hard
on yourself. You can't do everything in one day. When you're ready,
you will let go quite willingly, painlessly, and confidently." Never
did I once critised her for hanging onto the 1 hour tv limit and the
1 hour gamebox playing, despite I could see how hard her son was
rebelling against the limit. It's not my family nor my life to judge.
The only thing I could offer her was the constantly insight into our
life with my son's fulltime attachement to the online Disney
community and tv. And of course, to assured her that she's not a bad
mum, just because she couldn't do what I'm doing. Infact, she's a
very very good and brave mum, to attempt something that she couldn't
even possibly contemplate doing 2 months ago. And that's to unschool,
for her son. And that most of we unschoolers all start off
unschooling, feeling very very worried and very very unsure of
ourselves, and the only sure thing is that we all know we're doing
this for the best of our children.
With Best Regrds to all,
SharonC
We're not exactly a non-screen family, but we do have limits. If the
computer is used, I limit the time to about an hour or so. For the
TV, I am much more lenient. On certain days, the TV is on most of the
day. On others, I just keep it off. We don't have any video game
systems in our house.> Some would say that I don't follow the
unschooling philosophy, but I try to protect my kids from the
addictive nature of video games. If they started showing signs of TV
addiction, I would do the same thing. There are times when I need to
consciously avoid the TV and computer because I feel addicted to
them. I'm not saying that others need to conform to my ideas, but
this is how I feel about them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm writing this in defence of sharilynn29.
I was really upset by 2 particular reply, which I felt was a little
bit harsh and vey critical of sharilynn29's belief,
And it's not only this post. Like many post before, I've noticed
parents with good intentions posting thier advice and opinion, gets
critisized for non "unschooling" praticises.
The origin of this topic, I assumed was someone asking for support
from other unschooling non-screen families, and perhaps wanting a
better insight of these families work around thier tv issues and a
little bit of support. And many did reply, offering scenarios of
thier approach to tv, some are very suportive of tv, some not so,
which was great, because now the person have a wide choice of options
to mull about. For those of us who is supportive of tv, I suppose we
would all love to "share" our joy in finding the freedom and benefit
of tv watching. And for a non-screen parent to offer some insights of
how thier "limited screen time" work in thier lives, it is offered in
good faith. I don't think it's fair for anyone to start critising
them, for what they believe. I've re-read the post many times, and in
no way did sharilynn29 above said or implied we "tv believing"
parents is wrong and failing our children. She believes in what she
constitudes to be addictive behaviour in her children, and is doing
what she believes is best for her children. But that doeasn't mean
she felt we "tv believing parents" was irreponsible to allow our
children to be tv- addict zombie. I don't think anybody should take
it as a personal insult! She was merely stating what she believes is
working for them. (How and why, we won't know because we are not part
of her family). And that to her the tv can invoke the addicitive
element, in her and her children and she's found a way to balance
that. And this is possible. I have known of some children or adults
who's just not interested in tvs or pc at all, what luck for the
parents!!
What I'm trying to say is, if we can accord such courtesy and respect
to our unschooling children, that we do allow them to make mistakes
and not critisized them for it. Why can we do the same for other
parents? And that we all believed we shouldn't impose our opinions,
likes and dislikes onto our children, why then are some of us,
stating so strong of our disagreement of another parents point of
view? And that to disecting, analysing and critisizing thier words/
actions of not being able to relinquish full control and trust to
thier child?
Description of the frnt page of Unschoolingbasics.
"A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask
experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out
how unschooling works in real families.
If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin
or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you
to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural
learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues
to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the
issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how
to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle"
Nowhere did it say, if you're not 100% unschooling, you're not
welcome. Nowhere did it say, if you're still unsure about going 100%
unschooling, your non-unschooling ideas that worked for you, might
get critised. Is it right that I should worry about sharing some of
my experience or post my ignorant non -unschooling opinions, and face
the possibility of being critized? I do get very upset if I'm
critised because it's basically telling me I'm not good enough. Or
that my ideas are rubbish. I get very upset seeng other parents being
critised because I see it as bullying, and not the "constructive
critism" as one might try to defend it.
It makes me question how much freedom am I allowed to share my
problems, experience and beliefs on this list, without getting a
sharp reprove? What works for my family, might not work for another,
but then maybe, just maybe, my answer might be able to provide some
better alternative ideas, some comfort or perhaps support.
Does this means if I'm not ready to release full control to my son
with regards to tv or anything for that matter, does that invalidate
all these unschooling living that we've been doing for the past 11
months?
I believe it is thru all our differences replies, with our many
different views and different comfort level of unschooling, with our
many different ways of releasing trust to our children, is what
allows us all to learnt more, off each other. And it is possible some
families have unschool so well that they do not feel they have
anything more to learnt off others. But yet, it is thru all these
dfferent stories of unschooling, some of you a "successful" 110%,
some a "almost there" 70%, some "a confident and picking up speed"
50% and some maybe just "a slow and still uncertain" 30%, that help
many of us to push forth.
The last thing we need when appealing to this list for comfort and
support, or share "well meaning" non-schooling ways of doing things,
to help further ease the burden and scary journey into "letting go of
central command", is being told we're not unschooling enough, or that
we're failing our children because of not being able to release full
control to him! What a slap to the face and confidence!
The fact that some of us is accessing this list, is proving enough
that we all want to unschool successfully, and is trying our bestest
to improve and undo all our bad parenting habit, by constantly try
to find ways that doesn't spook us.
I think it's only fair that everyone is allowed to post and received
any message, no matter how silly/ non-unschooling it is, without any
prejudice. And that we are allowed the full freedom and the trust
that we will know what's best for our children and will eventually
learn to let go, slow but surely.
I am currently helping a friend (a very traditional, no tv, no
gamebox person) and her 9 yr old to unschool. And I very frequently
tells her it's ok and it's not the end of the world if she's chickens
out of relinquishing certain control back to her very active son, who
happens to be de-schooling big time with lots of gamebox, swearing
and shouting. And that it's ok to only give a tiny bit of control to
the son and not alot, if that's what's she's comfrotable doing, for a
start. I very often points it out to her, that it's she who's having
a bad time de-schooling/ unschooling, and not her son. That she's the
one, who's scared, and not her son. And that she really wants to
unschool because she's convinced it is for better, but yet, she's
fnding it very very scary and hard. My words to her is "Don't be hard
on yourself. You can't do everything in one day. When you're ready,
you will let go quite willingly, painlessly, and confidently." Never
did I once critised her for hanging onto the 1 hour tv limit and the
1 hour gamebox playing, despite I could see how hard her son was
rebelling against the limit. It's not my family nor my life to judge.
The only thing I could offer her was the constantly insight into our
life with my son's fulltime attachement to the online Disney
community and tv. And of course, to assured her that she's not a bad
mum, just because she couldn't do what I'm doing. Infact, she's a
very very good and brave mum, to attempt something that she couldn't
even possibly contemplate doing 2 months ago. And that's to unschool,
for her son. And that most of we unschoolers all start off
unschooling, feeling very very worried and very very unsure of
ourselves, and the only sure thing is that we all know we're doing
this for the best of our children.
With Best Regrds to all,
SharonC
Ren Allen
~~The origin of this topic, I assumed was someone asking for support
from other unschooling non-screen families, and perhaps wanting a
better insight of these families work around thier tv issues and a
little bit of support. ~~
I didn't start this list to pat people on the back and tell them
they're doing just fine if they want to control and manipulate their
children. This list exists for the purpose of helping people let GO of
mainstream ideas and ideals.
If someone wants support for controlling their children's tv viewing,
it will have to be gotten elsewhere...which should be really EASY
because everywhere else in society you'll have support for that. We
aren't here to provide support for limits and control. You can find
that EVERYWHERE.
We're here to provide support for a very different kind of parenting.
That doesn't mean there won't be people that are struggling with
various parts of the philosophies. We understand that. Many of us have
been there ourselves (ask me all about tv controls!!):)
But if we are to say exactly what everyone else in society is saying
"limit your children. Control their choices. Don't respect them." then
what good is this list for people that WANT a different way of
relating to their children??? It would be incredibly disrespectful to
all these folks that signed on here looking for a very NEW way to
parent and relate to their children if we just pat everyone on the
back and say "everything you're doing is just fine".
That isn't what most people are here for. I'm certainly not.
All you have to do is talk to every person in the neighborhood to get
approval for limits!! That's really easy to find in this world. It's
not so easy to find other people that will help us move AWAY from the
control paradigm. It's not so easy to find people that will point out
ways to be MORE respectful to children and their choices.
This list has existed for over three years and has almost 1700
members. No two people here do things exactly alike. Everyone is at a
very different place in their own journey. Nobody expects anyone to be
anywhere other than where they ARE right now.
I'm really thankful for this place where mainstream ideas are
challenged, where we can all talk about ways to respect children MORE,
not less. I'm thankful this list stays true to it's purpose which is
helping people understand the environment unschooling will blossom in
best. I'm thankful for the many voices that contribute, question and
especially for those that (year after year after year) answer
questions and help people see there are better options than control
and limits.
I don't know that I would ever have fully understood the idea of
partnering with my children had nobody come along and challenged me to
stretch and grow. We NEED alternatives to limits if we are to change
how we interact with our children.
If people want simple support for whatever they are doing, whether it
helps unschooling or not, this isn't the place. We're here to discuss,
ponder, analyze and offer options. I believe this has been done with
kindness and respect. Everyone is free to take what they choose from
any discussion, just like any autodidact would from any resource.
This list is one of many, many, many resources. A great one I believe,
but only one.
Ren
one listowner
learninginfreedom.com
from other unschooling non-screen families, and perhaps wanting a
better insight of these families work around thier tv issues and a
little bit of support. ~~
I didn't start this list to pat people on the back and tell them
they're doing just fine if they want to control and manipulate their
children. This list exists for the purpose of helping people let GO of
mainstream ideas and ideals.
If someone wants support for controlling their children's tv viewing,
it will have to be gotten elsewhere...which should be really EASY
because everywhere else in society you'll have support for that. We
aren't here to provide support for limits and control. You can find
that EVERYWHERE.
We're here to provide support for a very different kind of parenting.
That doesn't mean there won't be people that are struggling with
various parts of the philosophies. We understand that. Many of us have
been there ourselves (ask me all about tv controls!!):)
But if we are to say exactly what everyone else in society is saying
"limit your children. Control their choices. Don't respect them." then
what good is this list for people that WANT a different way of
relating to their children??? It would be incredibly disrespectful to
all these folks that signed on here looking for a very NEW way to
parent and relate to their children if we just pat everyone on the
back and say "everything you're doing is just fine".
That isn't what most people are here for. I'm certainly not.
All you have to do is talk to every person in the neighborhood to get
approval for limits!! That's really easy to find in this world. It's
not so easy to find other people that will help us move AWAY from the
control paradigm. It's not so easy to find people that will point out
ways to be MORE respectful to children and their choices.
This list has existed for over three years and has almost 1700
members. No two people here do things exactly alike. Everyone is at a
very different place in their own journey. Nobody expects anyone to be
anywhere other than where they ARE right now.
I'm really thankful for this place where mainstream ideas are
challenged, where we can all talk about ways to respect children MORE,
not less. I'm thankful this list stays true to it's purpose which is
helping people understand the environment unschooling will blossom in
best. I'm thankful for the many voices that contribute, question and
especially for those that (year after year after year) answer
questions and help people see there are better options than control
and limits.
I don't know that I would ever have fully understood the idea of
partnering with my children had nobody come along and challenged me to
stretch and grow. We NEED alternatives to limits if we are to change
how we interact with our children.
If people want simple support for whatever they are doing, whether it
helps unschooling or not, this isn't the place. We're here to discuss,
ponder, analyze and offer options. I believe this has been done with
kindness and respect. Everyone is free to take what they choose from
any discussion, just like any autodidact would from any resource.
This list is one of many, many, many resources. A great one I believe,
but only one.
Ren
one listowner
learninginfreedom.com
Vickisue Gray
((((APPLAUD))))
Very nicely stated, Ren. (My opinion.)
We deal with the 'limit setting' in-laws all the time and from the differences
I can see between the three male cousins all within a year of each other
by age, only the boys with limits suffer the 'zombie effect' of TV. It better
be interesting to intrigue my son and then it better be at a time he wants
to watch it as he knows how to use the DVR and he'll use it.
I, personally, find great value in unlimited screen time. When my son has gotten
caught up in a computer game like Age of Empires or Civilzation, he learns so much!
Since we have switched to unschooling, his learning has excelled in so many areas.
He is also retaining what he is learning because he's enjoying the journey.
I, personally, LOVE this list and this wonderful group of ladies.
I appreciate all you do in helping us learn to love, trust, and guide our kids to grow
up in true freedom. My family also loves you all as you have helped me let go of
issues that made me scream at them before. (house cleaning, lol, the last frontier.)
Vicki
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Very nicely stated, Ren. (My opinion.)
We deal with the 'limit setting' in-laws all the time and from the differences
I can see between the three male cousins all within a year of each other
by age, only the boys with limits suffer the 'zombie effect' of TV. It better
be interesting to intrigue my son and then it better be at a time he wants
to watch it as he knows how to use the DVR and he'll use it.
I, personally, find great value in unlimited screen time. When my son has gotten
caught up in a computer game like Age of Empires or Civilzation, he learns so much!
Since we have switched to unschooling, his learning has excelled in so many areas.
He is also retaining what he is learning because he's enjoying the journey.
I, personally, LOVE this list and this wonderful group of ladies.
I appreciate all you do in helping us learn to love, trust, and guide our kids to grow
up in true freedom. My family also loves you all as you have helped me let go of
issues that made me scream at them before. (house cleaning, lol, the last frontier.)
Vicki
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanne
--- In [email protected], "rpindc04" <robbin_mp@...>
wrote: It has helped to read lots of posts about watching tv and
playing electronic and computer games with your kids. They helped
create more ease in our house about those activities.>>>>>>
Hi Robbin,
I found the same thing when we first started unschooling (about 3
years ago)...reading other people's experiences, thoughts and ideas
helped us to get where we are today. I can't imagine getting here
without people like Pam S. & Joyce...also Sandra. Reading about how
they did it gave me ideas on how to incorporate more and more of
that kind of parenting into my own family. After all, that's why I
was there (the message boards at unschooling.com that is - which is
no longer there by the way).....because I wanted a change for my
family and in my case, (and I suspect many of you) it had to start
with me.
you?>>>>>
There's probably a good deal of members who don't have much screen
time because they don't own a TV (or fill in your screen-of-choice).
I know I sometimes take for granted that everybody has a computer
(or three like us), gaming systems, TV, DVD, VCR, etc. I feel
fortunate that we have these things because they add to our lives,
as do many of the things we own and are able to use.
Then again, there are members who own those things, but they're
children really aren't interested in them. We have Playstation 2 and
a ton of games and my daughters (( & 12) have gone weeks without
playing. Right now, a matter of fact, Shawna is sitting next to me
playing Spyro and trying to get past a level. She's played more
today (about 2.5 hours and counting) than she has all month.
Also, as I read in some of the posts, there are some that limit
their children screen time. I would suggest to those members that
you read more about the experiences of those who have let go of
control and rules and replaced it with discussions, involvement,
trust, modeling, respect, etc. I really think that is the key to
understanding unschooling. When you remove what used to be there,
replace it with something else, something different, something
better. When we first started unschooling (maybe after about 6
months or so) I quickly noticed with Shawna that when ever I fell
into a routine (I would notice it after about 2-3 days) of not
consistantly connecting with her and being involved in what she was
interested in, she would start to slowly fall apart. It wasn't that
the rules had to be put back in place - it was that I had to get
involved again. Sure, there are times we're all off and doing our
own thing (my kids are 9, 12 & 15) but I don't let time go by with
out connecting and talking and interacting.
*** Joanne ***
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
wrote: It has helped to read lots of posts about watching tv and
playing electronic and computer games with your kids. They helped
create more ease in our house about those activities.>>>>>>
Hi Robbin,
I found the same thing when we first started unschooling (about 3
years ago)...reading other people's experiences, thoughts and ideas
helped us to get where we are today. I can't imagine getting here
without people like Pam S. & Joyce...also Sandra. Reading about how
they did it gave me ideas on how to incorporate more and more of
that kind of parenting into my own family. After all, that's why I
was there (the message boards at unschooling.com that is - which is
no longer there by the way).....because I wanted a change for my
family and in my case, (and I suspect many of you) it had to start
with me.
>>>>I wonder if there are readers lurking on this list who do nothave much screen time in their homes. What does that look like for
you?>>>>>
There's probably a good deal of members who don't have much screen
time because they don't own a TV (or fill in your screen-of-choice).
I know I sometimes take for granted that everybody has a computer
(or three like us), gaming systems, TV, DVD, VCR, etc. I feel
fortunate that we have these things because they add to our lives,
as do many of the things we own and are able to use.
Then again, there are members who own those things, but they're
children really aren't interested in them. We have Playstation 2 and
a ton of games and my daughters (( & 12) have gone weeks without
playing. Right now, a matter of fact, Shawna is sitting next to me
playing Spyro and trying to get past a level. She's played more
today (about 2.5 hours and counting) than she has all month.
Also, as I read in some of the posts, there are some that limit
their children screen time. I would suggest to those members that
you read more about the experiences of those who have let go of
control and rules and replaced it with discussions, involvement,
trust, modeling, respect, etc. I really think that is the key to
understanding unschooling. When you remove what used to be there,
replace it with something else, something different, something
better. When we first started unschooling (maybe after about 6
months or so) I quickly noticed with Shawna that when ever I fell
into a routine (I would notice it after about 2-3 days) of not
consistantly connecting with her and being involved in what she was
interested in, she would start to slowly fall apart. It wasn't that
the rules had to be put back in place - it was that I had to get
involved again. Sure, there are times we're all off and doing our
own thing (my kids are 9, 12 & 15) but I don't let time go by with
out connecting and talking and interacting.
*** Joanne ***
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:29 AM, lyeping2607 wrote:
go of.
But the list is to provide help and support for the practices someone
*has decided they want to change* not the practices they want to hold
onto.
Unfortunately that gives the impression that everyone on the list is
perfect, that it's easy to just let go of old ways and all they need
is some tips on what to do instead!
But I think a better way to look at the list is to picture everyone
with a dozen practices they're holding onto that make their own life
easier and less fearful. The practices are like balloons that support
their fears because their fears are threatening to pull them into a
bottomless abyss. They *want* to hold onto the balloons and they
can't understand why people find it so easy to let go.
It *isn't* easy to let go! It's scary! It takes some uncomfortable
self examination to let go. But what you're seeing displayed on the
list is the one balloon someone has decided to let go of. You're just
not seeing the other 11 balloons they're still holding onto. ;-)
When people decide to let go, when they bring a practice to the list
that they want help with, it isn't because it's easy. It's because
they've been examining that practice in a new light and they don't
like the new vision. The new vision makes them more uncomfortable
than the fear. One of their balloons doesn't look so comforting any
more. They were only seeing the balloon part of the practice that was
holding them up and supporting their fears, but now they've seen the
lead part that was weighing down their kids and holding themselves
back. They've reached the point with that practice where they've
said, "Yes, it's scary to let go, but I can now see that where this
balloon is taking me is even scarier. And I want help letting go."
Don't assume that everyone has let go of all their balloons!
Don't assume that letting go is easy! You just haven't seen all the
self-examination that has gone on in private as people read the list
without posting. This is the list to post to when you've decided to
let go.
But it's also a good list to read to help you get to the point where
you want to let go of a practice.
It just isn't a good place to tell people why you aren't ready to let
go ;-) Because everyone who posts regularly has let go of at least
one balloon and is eager to help others let go of the ones they now
see were weighing them down.
see that you are *choosing* not to let him. You don't like the
consequences (they *are* temporary consequences!) of letting him have
all the screen time he'd like. So you are *choosing* to limit.
If there is one piece of advice I could give people it would be to
see everything they do as a choice. It is so incredibly freeing :-)
It seems like the only reason we do so many unpleasant things in life
is because we don't have a choice. But it's the perception of not
having a choice makes them doubly onerous.
As an example, I hated cleaning the toilet. It was just something you
had to do every week (or month ;-) And just because I had to do it, I
never wanted to and fought against it, often avoiding my
responsibility for 6 months! But when I realized it was a choice,
that I could choose to never ever ever scrub the toilet again, I
realized that it was nice to see it not filthy. I could choose� when
I wanted to!�to have a clean toilet. And I found that once I realized
there wasn't anyone making me clean, that I cleaned it a lot more often.
If you decide to let him have all the screen time he'd like I promise
you it will be hard! It will be hard to make the decision. It will be
hard on you to let go of control over a piece of your life. It will
be hard to see the new problems letting go creates. But the place on
the other side on beyond this transition period where your son sees
screen time as just another thing to do and not something precious to
be coveted is a really awesome place :-) And it will be worth it.
But it's only when you have read enough to see that there's something
better, when you've reflected on the tension in the house and feel
that tension doesn't seem a good enough compromise to prevent
something that isn't seeming as scary as it once was, only then will
you be one of the perceived "perfect" ones who posts to the list and
says "Okay, I've let go, now what?" ;-)
I hope this group is open enough for me to be able to admit that
without serious accusations of being inadequate or such.
This seems to be the crux of the difficulties people have with this
type of list. Many people want places to vent, where they can air
their faults and have others say "Yes, I have that exact same
problem. I know what you're going through because I'm going through
the same thing."
That's what support lists are for :-)
This is a discussion list. It's a place to work out the things you've
decided to work on.
Maybe there are two types of people: People who want to work out
their problems in private while getting support for how hard it is.
And people who recognize that not being perfect is part of life and
want a place to work on being better.
I wonder if it's personality or school that causes people to think
they're bad for not doing everything right? Probably personality but
then school makes it worse :-/ But no one on the list sees anyone as
bad for not doing everything "right". No one expects everyone to be
doing everything "right". Because there isn't "right" so much as
there is actively working towards better, or moving towards
unschooling instead of away. And the list is a place to work towards
better. Any posts are assumed to be a request for help. It's the next
step beyond "Life's hard." That's why there isn't much support for
"It's hard," and "I can't." This type of list is the place to go when
you want to ask "So what do I do about that? How do I make it less
hard. How do I move beyond 'I can't'."
The list is just not a support list where people can post about how
hard life is and sympathize with each other.
Yes, life's hard. Let's talk about the things we're ready to change
so it's not so hard! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But yet, it is thru all theseHere's something I wrote a bit ago:
> dfferent stories of unschooling, some of you a "successful" 110%,
> some a "almost there" 70%, some "a confident and picking up speed"
> 50% and some maybe just "a slow and still uncertain" 30%, that help
> many of us to push forth.
> � It's hard to trust, for me.For most everyone!
> � I was schooled in a school building...As were 99% of the people! :-)
> � At this point, I CAN'T let my son have all the screen time he'dProbably most of the people have something they aren't ready to let
> like.
go of.
But the list is to provide help and support for the practices someone
*has decided they want to change* not the practices they want to hold
onto.
Unfortunately that gives the impression that everyone on the list is
perfect, that it's easy to just let go of old ways and all they need
is some tips on what to do instead!
But I think a better way to look at the list is to picture everyone
with a dozen practices they're holding onto that make their own life
easier and less fearful. The practices are like balloons that support
their fears because their fears are threatening to pull them into a
bottomless abyss. They *want* to hold onto the balloons and they
can't understand why people find it so easy to let go.
It *isn't* easy to let go! It's scary! It takes some uncomfortable
self examination to let go. But what you're seeing displayed on the
list is the one balloon someone has decided to let go of. You're just
not seeing the other 11 balloons they're still holding onto. ;-)
When people decide to let go, when they bring a practice to the list
that they want help with, it isn't because it's easy. It's because
they've been examining that practice in a new light and they don't
like the new vision. The new vision makes them more uncomfortable
than the fear. One of their balloons doesn't look so comforting any
more. They were only seeing the balloon part of the practice that was
holding them up and supporting their fears, but now they've seen the
lead part that was weighing down their kids and holding themselves
back. They've reached the point with that practice where they've
said, "Yes, it's scary to let go, but I can now see that where this
balloon is taking me is even scarier. And I want help letting go."
Don't assume that everyone has let go of all their balloons!
Don't assume that letting go is easy! You just haven't seen all the
self-examination that has gone on in private as people read the list
without posting. This is the list to post to when you've decided to
let go.
But it's also a good list to read to help you get to the point where
you want to let go of a practice.
It just isn't a good place to tell people why you aren't ready to let
go ;-) Because everyone who posts regularly has let go of at least
one balloon and is eager to help others let go of the ones they now
see were weighing them down.
> � At this point, I CAN'T let my son have all the screen time he'dWhen you're ready to work on that, it will help yourself *hugely* to
> like.
see that you are *choosing* not to let him. You don't like the
consequences (they *are* temporary consequences!) of letting him have
all the screen time he'd like. So you are *choosing* to limit.
If there is one piece of advice I could give people it would be to
see everything they do as a choice. It is so incredibly freeing :-)
It seems like the only reason we do so many unpleasant things in life
is because we don't have a choice. But it's the perception of not
having a choice makes them doubly onerous.
As an example, I hated cleaning the toilet. It was just something you
had to do every week (or month ;-) And just because I had to do it, I
never wanted to and fought against it, often avoiding my
responsibility for 6 months! But when I realized it was a choice,
that I could choose to never ever ever scrub the toilet again, I
realized that it was nice to see it not filthy. I could choose� when
I wanted to!�to have a clean toilet. And I found that once I realized
there wasn't anyone making me clean, that I cleaned it a lot more often.
If you decide to let him have all the screen time he'd like I promise
you it will be hard! It will be hard to make the decision. It will be
hard on you to let go of control over a piece of your life. It will
be hard to see the new problems letting go creates. But the place on
the other side on beyond this transition period where your son sees
screen time as just another thing to do and not something precious to
be coveted is a really awesome place :-) And it will be worth it.
But it's only when you have read enough to see that there's something
better, when you've reflected on the tension in the house and feel
that tension doesn't seem a good enough compromise to prevent
something that isn't seeming as scary as it once was, only then will
you be one of the perceived "perfect" ones who posts to the list and
says "Okay, I've let go, now what?" ;-)
I hope this group is open enough for me to be able to admit that
without serious accusations of being inadequate or such.
This seems to be the crux of the difficulties people have with this
type of list. Many people want places to vent, where they can air
their faults and have others say "Yes, I have that exact same
problem. I know what you're going through because I'm going through
the same thing."
That's what support lists are for :-)
This is a discussion list. It's a place to work out the things you've
decided to work on.
Maybe there are two types of people: People who want to work out
their problems in private while getting support for how hard it is.
And people who recognize that not being perfect is part of life and
want a place to work on being better.
I wonder if it's personality or school that causes people to think
they're bad for not doing everything right? Probably personality but
then school makes it worse :-/ But no one on the list sees anyone as
bad for not doing everything "right". No one expects everyone to be
doing everything "right". Because there isn't "right" so much as
there is actively working towards better, or moving towards
unschooling instead of away. And the list is a place to work towards
better. Any posts are assumed to be a request for help. It's the next
step beyond "Life's hard." That's why there isn't much support for
"It's hard," and "I can't." This type of list is the place to go when
you want to ask "So what do I do about that? How do I make it less
hard. How do I move beyond 'I can't'."
> � I know I may get flamed for this but I'm working on it.It's not flames. It's help to move on! :-)
The list is just not a support list where people can post about how
hard life is and sympathize with each other.
Yes, life's hard. Let's talk about the things we're ready to change
so it's not so hard! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:29 AM, lyeping2607 wrote:
practices that hamper unschooling.
Most practices of good parents *are* well intended. Parents want
their kids to be the best they can be and work toward that.
Spankings, groundings, lectures, time outs, limitations, curfews,
rules are all well intended. The problem is that most parents feel
they can't get the results they want any other way and, if they do
see the downside of those methods, they feel the outcome is worth it.
Parents do see other parents who use those methods have kids that
turn out fine. The problem is that the parents don't know why the
kids turn out okay. (Or seem to be okay.) They assume it's the
methods. The methods *seem* like they should work. But they can't
really know for sure.
there's little screen time. She didn't specify families who limited.
The list is specifically for supporting people who are trying to let
go of what gets in the way of unschooling and mindful parenting, not
supporting "good intentions".
The huge difference is that our kids are growing into who they are.
We aren't their shapers or molders. We're there to support who they are.
This list isn't a "support whatever" list. It's a list where people
can ask specific questions about letting go of practices that get in
the way of unschooling, and working with practices that help it.
The two goals are entirely different.
The purpose of the list is not support of whatever practices families
who call themselves unschoolers are doing. There *are* lists for
which that *is* the goal. Nothing wrong with that goal., It's just
different than this lists goal. This list's goal is to help those
people who want to change.
Out in the real world, I'm supportive of whatever pace the parents
around me want to take. I talk a bit about unschooling if they're
interested. They can take it or leave it. The goal in my real life
relationships isn't to help them understand unschooling.
questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families."
Would it be clearer if it said "how the unschooling philosophy looks
in practice"?
That's a serious question.
Because the list isn't for validating anyone. It's specifically for
helping people let go of stuff that interferes with unschooling.
I think the problem is that when ideas get held up for examination,
the person who holds the idea feels like they're being examined. Not
so. Just the idea. *No one* is saying "You're a bad unschooler." (No
one's handing out unschooling badges so we don't label anyone!) We
*do* say "That idea will hamper unschooling. That idea will whittle
away at your relationship with your kids."
The list is less about what people do and more about helping them
understand *so* they can go off and try to put it into practice. (And
come back and get help tweaking where things got off track.)
Some lists are about supporting people's own slow journey to
unschooling. It's about supporting each other in how difficult it can
be to trust and let go. Some people need that.
This list is for those who want to work on parts that are troubling
them. Not necessarily let go of everything, but work on parts. This
is where people work that out. (Or read while other brave souls work
it out ;-) It's just a different kind of list because different
people need this kind of list and don't find the support lists
useful. When they say "This is hard!" they don't want "Yes, it is.
You're doing fine." They want concrete help on what they're doing
wrong and how they can do it better.
The difference is that this type of list works best for people who
know they aren't going to get it all right at once. But they know
they need a goal to work towards. They don't need to hear "You're
okay!" They know they're okay. What they don't know is how to get to
where they want to go (unschooling). So they ask for help.
This list *isn't* for everyone trying to unschool.
Joyce
> I've noticedBecause the point of the list is to help people let go of the
> parents with good intentions posting thier advice and opinion, gets
> critisized for non "unschooling" praticises.
practices that hamper unschooling.
Most practices of good parents *are* well intended. Parents want
their kids to be the best they can be and work toward that.
Spankings, groundings, lectures, time outs, limitations, curfews,
rules are all well intended. The problem is that most parents feel
they can't get the results they want any other way and, if they do
see the downside of those methods, they feel the outcome is worth it.
Parents do see other parents who use those methods have kids that
turn out fine. The problem is that the parents don't know why the
kids turn out okay. (Or seem to be okay.) They assume it's the
methods. The methods *seem* like they should work. But they can't
really know for sure.
> The origin of this topic, I assumed was someone asking for supportNo, she was just asking what the days look like in families where
> from other unschooling non-screen families, and perhaps wanting a
> better insight of these families work around thier tv issues and a
> little bit of support.
>
there's little screen time. She didn't specify families who limited.
The list is specifically for supporting people who are trying to let
go of what gets in the way of unschooling and mindful parenting, not
supporting "good intentions".
> What I'm trying to say is, if we can accord such courtesy and respectThat's a question that often gets asked and it seems reasonable.
> to our unschooling children, that we do allow them to make mistakes
> and not critisized them for it. Why can we do the same for other
> parents?
>
The huge difference is that our kids are growing into who they are.
We aren't their shapers or molders. We're there to support who they are.
This list isn't a "support whatever" list. It's a list where people
can ask specific questions about letting go of practices that get in
the way of unschooling, and working with practices that help it.
The two goals are entirely different.
The purpose of the list is not support of whatever practices families
who call themselves unschoolers are doing. There *are* lists for
which that *is* the goal. Nothing wrong with that goal., It's just
different than this lists goal. This list's goal is to help those
people who want to change.
Out in the real world, I'm supportive of whatever pace the parents
around me want to take. I talk a bit about unschooling if they're
interested. They can take it or leave it. The goal in my real life
relationships isn't to help them understand unschooling.
> Nowhere did it say, if you're still unsure about going 100%Yeah, it does. "Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling
> unschooling, your non-unschooling ideas that worked for you, might
> get critised.
>
questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families."
Would it be clearer if it said "how the unschooling philosophy looks
in practice"?
> Does this means if I'm not ready to release full control to my sonWhy do you need people here to validate your unschooling life?
> with regards to tv or anything for that matter, does that invalidate
> all these unschooling living that we've been doing for the past 11
> months?
>
That's a serious question.
Because the list isn't for validating anyone. It's specifically for
helping people let go of stuff that interferes with unschooling.
I think the problem is that when ideas get held up for examination,
the person who holds the idea feels like they're being examined. Not
so. Just the idea. *No one* is saying "You're a bad unschooler." (No
one's handing out unschooling badges so we don't label anyone!) We
*do* say "That idea will hamper unschooling. That idea will whittle
away at your relationship with your kids."
The list is less about what people do and more about helping them
understand *so* they can go off and try to put it into practice. (And
come back and get help tweaking where things got off track.)
> And I very frequentlyDifferent people take different paths in real life when helping someone.
> tells her it's ok and it's not the end of the world if she's chickens
> out of relinquishing certain control back to her very active son
>
Some lists are about supporting people's own slow journey to
unschooling. It's about supporting each other in how difficult it can
be to trust and let go. Some people need that.
This list is for those who want to work on parts that are troubling
them. Not necessarily let go of everything, but work on parts. This
is where people work that out. (Or read while other brave souls work
it out ;-) It's just a different kind of list because different
people need this kind of list and don't find the support lists
useful. When they say "This is hard!" they don't want "Yes, it is.
You're doing fine." They want concrete help on what they're doing
wrong and how they can do it better.
> Don't be hardYup. That's what the list is for.
> on yourself. You can't do everything in one day. When you're ready,
> you will let go quite willingly, painlessly, and confidently."
>
The difference is that this type of list works best for people who
know they aren't going to get it all right at once. But they know
they need a goal to work towards. They don't need to hear "You're
okay!" They know they're okay. What they don't know is how to get to
where they want to go (unschooling). So they ask for help.
This list *isn't* for everyone trying to unschool.
Joyce
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
to our kids, too. Conventional parenting stops at "Life's hard" - I
can't even begin to catalog the times and ways I've heard parents
express that to kids as a way to end an argument. Life's hard. No
free lunch. Can't always get what you want. End of story.
Unschooling *starts* exactly there. Life's hard - so let me help
you.
With my deschooling teen, "let me help you" isn't always the best
thing to say, directly. He's not *supposed* to need help. It takes
time to (re)build a relationship to a place of trusting support.
That's true of discussion lists as well. It takes time to build
understanding and trust amongst a group of complete strangers,
especially since most of us come to the idea of unschooling from
somewhere else - often from the somewhere of school where
helpfulness is cheating at best and a set-up for an attack at worst.
One of the ideas I rattle on and on about is that autonomy, at least
in unschooling jargon, is a whole different ball-game than
independence. Part of autonomy is trusting that help is available -
something I usually talk about in terms of supporting our kids, but
it applies to the adults on this list as well. Most of us were
raised to respect independence and distrust help. We're okay getting
help by the back door, as it were - bitching about our problems in
order to hear others bitch and maybe grab a nugget or two of useful
information. Part of deschooling involves developing our own
autonomy as parents. Being okay with saying "I need some help here" -
to our spouses, friends, kids... and other unschoolers. Seeing help
being offered, rather than critcism. Seeing good intentions. Those
are some of the unschooling skills that take time and practice to
learn.
When I first came to unschooling lists I got my feelings hurt alot.
I expected criticism, so I read every difference as an attack. I
expected a bitchy old-girl system and felt slapped around. I
expected to be graded on my performance as an unschooling parent and
felt like I was getting a D at best. It's interesting to me to look
back at some of the same comments that offended and scared me a few
years ago and see the kindness being offered. It took some
deschooling on my part to be able to see that kindness - much as it
has taken some deschooling on my stepson's part to be able to see
*my* kindness.
Anyway, this has turned into something of a ramble, but I wanted to
say that in many many ways, the same principles we're trying to
apply in our families *do* come out on this board. Not always
skillfully or successfully, maybe, but then that's true in our
families too.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>> Any posts are assumed to be a request for help. It's the nextfor
> step beyond "Life's hard." That's why there isn't much support
> "It's hard," and "I can't." This type of list is the place to gowhen
> you want to ask "So what do I do about that? How do I make itless
> hard. How do I move beyond 'I can't'."This is lovely - and very much a principle of unschooling as applied
to our kids, too. Conventional parenting stops at "Life's hard" - I
can't even begin to catalog the times and ways I've heard parents
express that to kids as a way to end an argument. Life's hard. No
free lunch. Can't always get what you want. End of story.
Unschooling *starts* exactly there. Life's hard - so let me help
you.
With my deschooling teen, "let me help you" isn't always the best
thing to say, directly. He's not *supposed* to need help. It takes
time to (re)build a relationship to a place of trusting support.
That's true of discussion lists as well. It takes time to build
understanding and trust amongst a group of complete strangers,
especially since most of us come to the idea of unschooling from
somewhere else - often from the somewhere of school where
helpfulness is cheating at best and a set-up for an attack at worst.
One of the ideas I rattle on and on about is that autonomy, at least
in unschooling jargon, is a whole different ball-game than
independence. Part of autonomy is trusting that help is available -
something I usually talk about in terms of supporting our kids, but
it applies to the adults on this list as well. Most of us were
raised to respect independence and distrust help. We're okay getting
help by the back door, as it were - bitching about our problems in
order to hear others bitch and maybe grab a nugget or two of useful
information. Part of deschooling involves developing our own
autonomy as parents. Being okay with saying "I need some help here" -
to our spouses, friends, kids... and other unschoolers. Seeing help
being offered, rather than critcism. Seeing good intentions. Those
are some of the unschooling skills that take time and practice to
learn.
When I first came to unschooling lists I got my feelings hurt alot.
I expected criticism, so I read every difference as an attack. I
expected a bitchy old-girl system and felt slapped around. I
expected to be graded on my performance as an unschooling parent and
felt like I was getting a D at best. It's interesting to me to look
back at some of the same comments that offended and scared me a few
years ago and see the kindness being offered. It took some
deschooling on my part to be able to see that kindness - much as it
has taken some deschooling on my stepson's part to be able to see
*my* kindness.
Anyway, this has turned into something of a ramble, but I wanted to
say that in many many ways, the same principles we're trying to
apply in our families *do* come out on this board. Not always
skillfully or successfully, maybe, but then that's true in our
families too.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
sharon currie
Hi Joyce,
"When they say "This is hard!" they don't want "Yes, it is.
You're doing fine." They want concrete help on what they're doing
wrong and how they can do it better."
"This list *isn't* for everyone trying to unschool."
Like Ren said ( and perhaps should be included in the description?)
"I didn't start this list to pat people on the back and tell them
they're doing just fine if they want to control and manipulate their
children. This list exists for the purpose of helping people let GO of
mainstream ideas and ideals."
I can see now where Ren and yourself is coming from. Yes, this list is obviously not for people trying to unschool. It is really for people unschooling already and is ready for more, like you said, with a little tweak here and there to help them push forth. Hence if anybody post anything, condoning limitation in any form, is asking for their head to be "chewed off". And I suppose there will never be any unschooling list that do not practice zero tolerance
towards limitation. I'm sorry but I have to say I am interpreting the "description" to be a very tolerant unschooling list based on this line -
"A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask
experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out
how unschooling works in real families."
Yes, I felt very strongly about this "chewing somebody's head off " when they are not letting go enough; just as how strongly you and Ren felt about "limitation". It's just that I felt woulnd't it be better if we can be a little bit more open and diverse? Limitation practices whether it's intentional or not., we are afterall, all about helping other new unschooling parents who wants to do better for thier children, right? We can only offer our opinion about how life can be better without limits, and insight into our free world. We don't have to snap at them, do we?
The funny thing is I've never been "chewed at" by either you or Ren! LOL! And that I'm actually speaking up for these "half-way there" parents, that I don't even personally know!
Oh..well! At least I tried.
SharonC
---------------------------------
For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"When they say "This is hard!" they don't want "Yes, it is.
You're doing fine." They want concrete help on what they're doing
wrong and how they can do it better."
"This list *isn't* for everyone trying to unschool."
Like Ren said ( and perhaps should be included in the description?)
"I didn't start this list to pat people on the back and tell them
they're doing just fine if they want to control and manipulate their
children. This list exists for the purpose of helping people let GO of
mainstream ideas and ideals."
I can see now where Ren and yourself is coming from. Yes, this list is obviously not for people trying to unschool. It is really for people unschooling already and is ready for more, like you said, with a little tweak here and there to help them push forth. Hence if anybody post anything, condoning limitation in any form, is asking for their head to be "chewed off". And I suppose there will never be any unschooling list that do not practice zero tolerance
towards limitation. I'm sorry but I have to say I am interpreting the "description" to be a very tolerant unschooling list based on this line -
"A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask
experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out
how unschooling works in real families."
Yes, I felt very strongly about this "chewing somebody's head off " when they are not letting go enough; just as how strongly you and Ren felt about "limitation". It's just that I felt woulnd't it be better if we can be a little bit more open and diverse? Limitation practices whether it's intentional or not., we are afterall, all about helping other new unschooling parents who wants to do better for thier children, right? We can only offer our opinion about how life can be better without limits, and insight into our free world. We don't have to snap at them, do we?
The funny thing is I've never been "chewed at" by either you or Ren! LOL! And that I'm actually speaking up for these "half-way there" parents, that I don't even personally know!
Oh..well! At least I tried.
SharonC
---------------------------------
For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lkoz2
I am mainly a lurker, but I just wanted to express my gratitude to the
list owners for furthering my growth in the unschooling life. I truly
appreciate this list and all it's members for helping me on my
journey. All the replies help me work on my "stuff" and show me more
peaceful ways to be with my children.
Laura
Brynn
Maya
in St. Paul Mn
list owners for furthering my growth in the unschooling life. I truly
appreciate this list and all it's members for helping me on my
journey. All the replies help me work on my "stuff" and show me more
peaceful ways to be with my children.
Laura
Brynn
Maya
in St. Paul Mn
wuweimama
>I'm not saying that others need to conform to my ideas, but this is
how I > feel about them.
>Actually, it appears that your children DO have to conform to your
ideas. I am passionate about our child being free to develop his own
value system. It really didn't work for my parents to impose their
value system on me as a child. I just did what I wanted
anyway...without them knowing. That adversarial dynamic isn't very
conducive to passion directed learning as partners, imo.
Pat
diana jenner
On Oct 30, 2007 9:55 AM, Meredith <meredith@...> wrote:
perspective for me :)
I especially had to pull out this part. When the kids were little, I would
ask my co-attachment-parenting friends about Hayden's intensity, all I
received was commiseration or criticism and sometimes delivered with a
condescending attitude :/ Discussions about RU are totally different for
me!! Sometimes it was/is painful to look at the possibilities thrown out by
strangers on a list... and yet, their help was/is real and I did/do *indeed*
have to look with new eyes at the cause of situations, which meant/means
often taking a long hard honest look at *myself.*
Lists for me are not the gentle recommendations of LLL or the camaraderie of
park day; I love them both for what they are, my real *kick in the pants*
when it comes to gentle parenting of my kids and this RU lifestyle has come
from strangers on the lists. The sharing of REAL situations where REAL
people have REAL interactions and how those lives can be brought with peace
and respect ~ I know what's possible because I'm shown time and time again,
in real life (and in real life stories on the lists) that RU works.
It's absolutely worth all the introspection and personal growth it inspires
:) Oh and it's good for the kids, too ;)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> We're okay gettingGREAT POST, Meredith! I really enjoyed reading it, another shift in
> help by the back door, as it were - bitching about our problems in
> order to hear others bitch and maybe grab a nugget or two of useful
> information. Part of deschooling involves developing our own
> autonomy as parents. Being okay with saying "I need some help here" -
> to our spouses, friends, kids... and other unschoolers. Seeing help
> being offered, rather than critcism. Seeing good intentions. Those
> are some of the unschooling skills that take time and practice to
> learn.
>
>
perspective for me :)
I especially had to pull out this part. When the kids were little, I would
ask my co-attachment-parenting friends about Hayden's intensity, all I
received was commiseration or criticism and sometimes delivered with a
condescending attitude :/ Discussions about RU are totally different for
me!! Sometimes it was/is painful to look at the possibilities thrown out by
strangers on a list... and yet, their help was/is real and I did/do *indeed*
have to look with new eyes at the cause of situations, which meant/means
often taking a long hard honest look at *myself.*
Lists for me are not the gentle recommendations of LLL or the camaraderie of
park day; I love them both for what they are, my real *kick in the pants*
when it comes to gentle parenting of my kids and this RU lifestyle has come
from strangers on the lists. The sharing of REAL situations where REAL
people have REAL interactions and how those lives can be brought with peace
and respect ~ I know what's possible because I'm shown time and time again,
in real life (and in real life stories on the lists) that RU works.
It's absolutely worth all the introspection and personal growth it inspires
:) Oh and it's good for the kids, too ;)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~The funny thing is I've never been "chewed at" by either you or Ren!
LOL! And that I'm actually speaking up for these "half-way there"
parents, that I don't even personally know!~
The people that are assumed to be "chewed at" lately are writing and
discussing and thanking the list for the discussion. So maybe it's all
perception.
This list IS for talk about unschooling. If someone posts ideas that
aren't helpful to an unschooling culture, it will get discussed.
Discussion isn't being "chewed at", it's just discussion.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
LOL! And that I'm actually speaking up for these "half-way there"
parents, that I don't even personally know!~
The people that are assumed to be "chewed at" lately are writing and
discussing and thanking the list for the discussion. So maybe it's all
perception.
This list IS for talk about unschooling. If someone posts ideas that
aren't helpful to an unschooling culture, it will get discussed.
Discussion isn't being "chewed at", it's just discussion.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
diana jenner
On Oct 30, 2007 10:54 AM, sharon currie <lyeping2607@...> wrote:
Unschooling is tough to *try*
Telling someone *You have freedom until X* is not really freedom.
It's important to be said that unschooling is really and truly a leap of
faith that cannot be made 1/2 way. You're either swimming or your not. For
me, the list exists for those times you're tempted to put your feet down and
stop swimming. When you're really wondering if you should just be on the
beach instead. Or maybe you're here to see how much fun the folks in the
water are having and soon you'll just jump in yourself.
They're always worth it.
an accurate description of a typical response to someone condoning
limitations on this list. (Nor do I want anyone to clip together validation
of such). Limitations do not work pro-actively to build trust in
relationships. period. Not in one's relationship to Self, not in one's
relationship to their child/parent. It's important be reminded. The whole
mainstream world is filled with validations for limitations. You can go to
9,999,999 other websites for that kind of support. Being in the RU
environment, means those limitations will be examined and looked at; their
harm pointed out. Stories of REAL folks who live without limitations are
here, their worlds did not collapse and their children are bright and shiny.
I guess it's living in *what's possible* instead of hanging out in *what is*
lost for a child and there's a day gone that a parent could have a better
relationship with a child. Those are important standards.
I'm sorry if folks had their feelings hurt, I **promise** the journey and
the lessons and the gifts are worth a wound to the ego. I know, it's been
me.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yes, this list is obviously not for people trying to unschool.**I may be fussy, I *do* think the above statement is true.
>
Unschooling is tough to *try*
Telling someone *You have freedom until X* is not really freedom.
It's important to be said that unschooling is really and truly a leap of
faith that cannot be made 1/2 way. You're either swimming or your not. For
me, the list exists for those times you're tempted to put your feet down and
stop swimming. When you're really wondering if you should just be on the
beach instead. Or maybe you're here to see how much fun the folks in the
water are having and soon you'll just jump in yourself.
> It is really for people unschooling already and is ready for more, like**Little tweaks are good. Big tweaks are (sometimes?always?) uncomfortable.
> you said, with a little tweak here and there to help them push forth.
>
They're always worth it.
> Hence if anybody post anything, condoning limitation in any form, is**I don't know if head-chewing (or any other body part for that matter) is
> asking for their head to be "chewed off". And I suppose there will never be
> any unschooling list that do not practice zero tolerance towards limitation.
>
an accurate description of a typical response to someone condoning
limitations on this list. (Nor do I want anyone to clip together validation
of such). Limitations do not work pro-actively to build trust in
relationships. period. Not in one's relationship to Self, not in one's
relationship to their child/parent. It's important be reminded. The whole
mainstream world is filled with validations for limitations. You can go to
9,999,999 other websites for that kind of support. Being in the RU
environment, means those limitations will be examined and looked at; their
harm pointed out. Stories of REAL folks who live without limitations are
here, their worlds did not collapse and their children are bright and shiny.
I guess it's living in *what's possible* instead of hanging out in *what is*
> I'm sorry but I have to say I am interpreting the "description" to be aFor every day the list is tolerant of limitations, there's a day of freedom
> very tolerant unschooling list based on this line -
>
> "A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask
> experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out
> how unschooling works in real families."
>
lost for a child and there's a day gone that a parent could have a better
relationship with a child. Those are important standards.
I'm sorry if folks had their feelings hurt, I **promise** the journey and
the lessons and the gifts are worth a wound to the ego. I know, it's been
me.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyeping2607
Ren said :
This list IS for talk about unschooling. If someone posts ideas that
aren't helpful to an unschooling culture, it will get discussed.
And Diana said :
"For every day the list is tolerant of limitations, there's a day of
freedom lost for a child and there's a day gone that a parent could
have a better relationship with a child. Those are important standards.
I'm sorry if folks had their feelings hurt, I **promise** the journey
and the lessons and the gifts are worth a wound to the ego. ~diana :)
Well said guys, I've learnt of a new perspective today, and I rest my
case.
Chew away, if you have to.
Sharon.
This list IS for talk about unschooling. If someone posts ideas that
aren't helpful to an unschooling culture, it will get discussed.
And Diana said :
"For every day the list is tolerant of limitations, there's a day of
freedom lost for a child and there's a day gone that a parent could
have a better relationship with a child. Those are important standards.
I'm sorry if folks had their feelings hurt, I **promise** the journey
and the lessons and the gifts are worth a wound to the ego. ~diana :)
Well said guys, I've learnt of a new perspective today, and I rest my
case.
Chew away, if you have to.
Sharon.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: sharon currie <lyeping2607@...>
My answer is always "I don't know". Therefore, no reason to control/
monitor
him now, as I want to be sure that all the decisions that my son makes,
from now
onwards, is his own. I do not want surprises when he's 15, where he's
might do a
total "flip", just like all my friends teenage kids' done. Why the
surprise?
That's because when they are teen, they all of a sudden realised they
have a
choice, the choice to listen to mum/ dad, or the choice to follow thier
heart.
Naturally the heart always wins.
-=-=-=-=-
It doesn't always win.
How many adults do you know that listened to their parents or society
and decided to make a career out of something that they have little
interest in? Only to *finally* change their minds and take on a
different career that makes them happy? If they hadn''t been persuaded
by others, they could have come to that conclusion years before.
-=-=-=-=-
Which explains the moans of "they are not
doing what they always do; this is so unlike them; I don't know why
he has
changed" "they won't listen!" . That's because "what they always do",
is not
thier choice but merely the adults (parents, relatives, society).
-=-=-=-
Exactly.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
From: sharon currie <lyeping2607@...>
My answer is always "I don't know". Therefore, no reason to control/
monitor
him now, as I want to be sure that all the decisions that my son makes,
from now
onwards, is his own. I do not want surprises when he's 15, where he's
might do a
total "flip", just like all my friends teenage kids' done. Why the
surprise?
That's because when they are teen, they all of a sudden realised they
have a
choice, the choice to listen to mum/ dad, or the choice to follow thier
heart.
Naturally the heart always wins.
-=-=-=-=-
It doesn't always win.
How many adults do you know that listened to their parents or society
and decided to make a career out of something that they have little
interest in? Only to *finally* change their minds and take on a
different career that makes them happy? If they hadn''t been persuaded
by others, they could have come to that conclusion years before.
-=-=-=-=-
Which explains the moans of "they are not
doing what they always do; this is so unlike them; I don't know why
he has
changed" "they won't listen!" . That's because "what they always do",
is not
thier choice but merely the adults (parents, relatives, society).
-=-=-=-
Exactly.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: lyeping2607 <lyeping2607@...>
I was really upset by 2 particular reply, which I felt was a little
bit harsh and vey critical of sharilynn29's belief,
And it's not only this post. Like many post before, I've noticed
parents with good intentions posting thier advice and opinion, gets
critisized for non "unschooling" praticises.
-=-=-=-
That's because it's an UNSCHOOLING list, and any advice that is counter
to unschooling will be criticized---no matter what the intentions.
Ever been on a vegetarian e-list and suggested that folks that eat just
a little meat are still vegetarians and maybe *should* eat a little
meat because it's good for you? Try it.
-=-=-=-=-
The origin of this topic, I assumed was someone asking for support
from other unschooling non-screen families, and perhaps wanting a
better insight of these families work around thier tv issues and a
little bit of support. And many did reply, offering scenarios of
thier approach to tv, some are very suportive of tv, some not so,
which was great, because now the person have a wide choice of options
to mull about.
-=-=-=-=-
All those posts were made by people new to unschooling AND parents of
very young children. We let those posts go through, but no one was
going to let them BE unschooling advice about TVs. It *will* get
challenged.
-=-=-=-=-
And for a non-screen parent to offer some insights of
how thier "limited screen time" work in thier lives, it is offered in
good faith.
-=-=-=-
Good faith or not, it doesn't jive with helping others understand how
NOT limiting things *does* work. It doesn't help others understand
unschooling.
-=-=-=-=-=-
She believes in what she
constitudes to be addictive behaviour in her children, and is doing
what she believes is best for her children.
-=-=-=-=-
TV is NOT addictive. It's entertaining and informative...and often the
most interesting thing in the house. By limiting it and making it a
scarcity, she's making it even *more* attractive to her children.
Bringing *more* entertaining, *more* informative, *more* interesting
things into their lives will decrease their viewing---simply because
children LIKE interesting, informative entertainment. If she's failing
in that respect, her children *should* watch more TV. But they aren't
addicted.
-=-=-=-=-=-
But that doeasn't mean
she felt we "tv believing parents" was irreponsible to allow our
children to be tv- addict zombie. I don't think anybody should take
it as a personal insult! She was merely stating what she believes is
working for them. (How and why, we won't know because we are not part
of her family). And that to her the tv can invoke the addicitive
element, in her and her children and she's found a way to balance
that. And this is possible. I have known of some children or adults
who's just not interested in tvs or pc at all, what luck for the
parents!!
---=-=-=-=-
It has nothing to do with luck. And if the *goal* is not to watch
TV---whatthehell???
Would you say the same for reading? "I have known of some children or
adults who are just not interested in books or reading at all. What
luck for the parents!!"
Would THAT make sense? Would that be lauded?
TV is NOT the enemy. It's just a box.
Each and every one of us has the means and opportunity to watch TV all
day. I *have* done it! Days I'm not feeling well. Days that there's a
M*A*S*H or Law & Order marathon. <g> But mostly it's off. It is now. I
could turn it on, I'm CHOOSING not to. Why would I do that? Why, when I
can do whatever I want, am I choosing to NOT watch TV?
-=-=-=-=-=-
What I'm trying to say is, if we can accord such courtesy and respect
to our unschooling children, that we do allow them to make mistakes
and not critisized them for it. Why can we do the same for other
parents?
-=-=-=-=-
Because I assume that, when someone joins an unschooling list of her
own volition, she actually wants to understand and embrace unschooling.
Odd assumption, maybe---but to me it makes sense. I also assume that
all of us will/do make mistakes (we call them learning-takes). But
stating that TV is addictive isn't a mistake. It's a belief or
misinformation---or whatever.
Also, I won't let a misunderstanding of how unschooling works cloud the
message of this list.
-=-=-=-=-=-
And that we all believed we shouldn't impose our opinions,
likes and dislikes onto our children, why then are some of us,
stating so strong of our disagreement of another parents point of
view? And that to disecting, analysing and critisizing thier words/
actions of not being able to relinquish full control and trust to
thier child?
-=-=-=-=-=-
No one has to be on this list. No one has to take our suggestions
seriously. No one has to unschool.
But if you're on the list in order to understand how to make
unschooling work in *your* home, I expect you to work at it and to
seriously consider what is being offered here. Not that I would ever
know what you're doing. But I know many, many families who have been
changed for the better from reading here (and other lists) and putting
the suggestions into practice.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Description of the frnt page of Unschoolingbasics.
<snip>
Nowhere did it say, if you're not 100% unschooling, you're not
welcome. Nowhere did it say, if you're still unsure about going 100%
unschooling, your non-unschooling ideas that worked for you, might
get critised.
-=-=-=-=-
Exactly HOW would non-unschooling ideas work in an unschooling home?
-==-=-=-=-
Is it right that I should worry about sharing some of
my experience or post my ignorant non -unschooling opinions, and face
the possibility of being critized?
-=-=-=-=-
I think posting non-unschooling questions is good.
Posting non-unschooling opinions will get questions and
criticized---yes, on an unschooling list.
You expect them to get accepted as, "well, yeah--whatever works for
you" ??
-=-=-=-=-
I do get very upset if I'm
critised because it's basically telling me I'm not good enough. Or
that my ideas are rubbish. I get very upset seeng other parents being
critised because I see it as bullying, and not the "constructive
critism" as one might try to defend it.
-=-=-=-=-
*People* aren't being criticized. Their ideas or actions *are*.
And if *you* feel not good enough, that's something *you* might need to
work on.
*Many* ideas are rubbish. The majority of the world thinks that the
idea of unschooling is rubbish. Does that make me feel "not good
enough"? Should it?
I can't control how upset *you* get or why. I can do something about
how upset my own children feel if I were to turn off or limit their TV
viewing. Or throw away their game pieces because I didn't want to put
them away. *YOU* can choose to help your children navigate their worlds
OR you can navigate their worlds for them by limiting and being
resentful of the work you must put into it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It makes me question how much freedom am I allowed to share my
problems, experience and beliefs on this list, without getting a
sharp reprove? What works for my family, might not work for another,
but then maybe, just maybe, my answer might be able to provide some
better alternative ideas, some comfort or perhaps support.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe. But if your answer won't hold water,....
Can you defend your position? Just because you have an answer, does it
make it a good solution? Does it fit within unschooling principles of
trust and respect, patience and generosity?
-=-=-=-=-=-=
Does this means if I'm not ready to release full control to my son
with regards to tv or anything for that matter, does that invalidate
all these unschooling living that we've been doing for the past 11
months?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Are you working towards a more joyful, respectful, trusting
relationship?
-=-=-==-=-
The last thing we need when appealing to this list for comfort and
support, or share "well meaning" non-schooling ways of doing things,
to help further ease the burden and scary journey into "letting go of
central command", is being told we're not unschooling enough, or that
we're failing our children because of not being able to release full
control to him! What a slap to the face and confidence!
-=-=-=-=-=--=
This list is not here for comfort or support. So you're right when you
say that it is the "last thing" we need.
Not that the list doesn't give comfort and support. Indeed it often
does. But that's not its purpose or intent.
If I were to agree that TV is addictive and that it's OK for parents to
be resentful and vindictive, would that actually HELP someone unschool?
How exactly would that help? If I were to agree that arbitrary limits
are necessary in some familes, how would that help someone ease into
unschooling?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think it's only fair that everyone is allowed to post and received
any message, no matter how silly/ non-unschooling it is, without any
prejudice.
-=-=-=-=-
It might seem fair to *you*. We moderate posts until we feel that
person isn't going to spam or be a nuisance---so not *all* messages go
through.
-=-=-=-=-
And that we are allowed the full freedom and the trust
that we will know what's best for our children and will eventually
learn to let go, slow but surely.
-=-=-=-=-
I have absolutley NO control over what any list member does at home.
NONE.
You DO have full freedom to do whatever you want at home. (You do not
necessarily have that freedom on this list.) I can trust you will do
what you feel is best with your children. I would hope you wouldn't do
what's not in their best interests.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
From: lyeping2607 <lyeping2607@...>
I was really upset by 2 particular reply, which I felt was a little
bit harsh and vey critical of sharilynn29's belief,
And it's not only this post. Like many post before, I've noticed
parents with good intentions posting thier advice and opinion, gets
critisized for non "unschooling" praticises.
-=-=-=-
That's because it's an UNSCHOOLING list, and any advice that is counter
to unschooling will be criticized---no matter what the intentions.
Ever been on a vegetarian e-list and suggested that folks that eat just
a little meat are still vegetarians and maybe *should* eat a little
meat because it's good for you? Try it.
-=-=-=-=-
The origin of this topic, I assumed was someone asking for support
from other unschooling non-screen families, and perhaps wanting a
better insight of these families work around thier tv issues and a
little bit of support. And many did reply, offering scenarios of
thier approach to tv, some are very suportive of tv, some not so,
which was great, because now the person have a wide choice of options
to mull about.
-=-=-=-=-
All those posts were made by people new to unschooling AND parents of
very young children. We let those posts go through, but no one was
going to let them BE unschooling advice about TVs. It *will* get
challenged.
-=-=-=-=-
And for a non-screen parent to offer some insights of
how thier "limited screen time" work in thier lives, it is offered in
good faith.
-=-=-=-
Good faith or not, it doesn't jive with helping others understand how
NOT limiting things *does* work. It doesn't help others understand
unschooling.
-=-=-=-=-=-
She believes in what she
constitudes to be addictive behaviour in her children, and is doing
what she believes is best for her children.
-=-=-=-=-
TV is NOT addictive. It's entertaining and informative...and often the
most interesting thing in the house. By limiting it and making it a
scarcity, she's making it even *more* attractive to her children.
Bringing *more* entertaining, *more* informative, *more* interesting
things into their lives will decrease their viewing---simply because
children LIKE interesting, informative entertainment. If she's failing
in that respect, her children *should* watch more TV. But they aren't
addicted.
-=-=-=-=-=-
But that doeasn't mean
she felt we "tv believing parents" was irreponsible to allow our
children to be tv- addict zombie. I don't think anybody should take
it as a personal insult! She was merely stating what she believes is
working for them. (How and why, we won't know because we are not part
of her family). And that to her the tv can invoke the addicitive
element, in her and her children and she's found a way to balance
that. And this is possible. I have known of some children or adults
who's just not interested in tvs or pc at all, what luck for the
parents!!
---=-=-=-=-
It has nothing to do with luck. And if the *goal* is not to watch
TV---whatthehell???
Would you say the same for reading? "I have known of some children or
adults who are just not interested in books or reading at all. What
luck for the parents!!"
Would THAT make sense? Would that be lauded?
TV is NOT the enemy. It's just a box.
Each and every one of us has the means and opportunity to watch TV all
day. I *have* done it! Days I'm not feeling well. Days that there's a
M*A*S*H or Law & Order marathon. <g> But mostly it's off. It is now. I
could turn it on, I'm CHOOSING not to. Why would I do that? Why, when I
can do whatever I want, am I choosing to NOT watch TV?
-=-=-=-=-=-
What I'm trying to say is, if we can accord such courtesy and respect
to our unschooling children, that we do allow them to make mistakes
and not critisized them for it. Why can we do the same for other
parents?
-=-=-=-=-
Because I assume that, when someone joins an unschooling list of her
own volition, she actually wants to understand and embrace unschooling.
Odd assumption, maybe---but to me it makes sense. I also assume that
all of us will/do make mistakes (we call them learning-takes). But
stating that TV is addictive isn't a mistake. It's a belief or
misinformation---or whatever.
Also, I won't let a misunderstanding of how unschooling works cloud the
message of this list.
-=-=-=-=-=-
And that we all believed we shouldn't impose our opinions,
likes and dislikes onto our children, why then are some of us,
stating so strong of our disagreement of another parents point of
view? And that to disecting, analysing and critisizing thier words/
actions of not being able to relinquish full control and trust to
thier child?
-=-=-=-=-=-
No one has to be on this list. No one has to take our suggestions
seriously. No one has to unschool.
But if you're on the list in order to understand how to make
unschooling work in *your* home, I expect you to work at it and to
seriously consider what is being offered here. Not that I would ever
know what you're doing. But I know many, many families who have been
changed for the better from reading here (and other lists) and putting
the suggestions into practice.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Description of the frnt page of Unschoolingbasics.
<snip>
Nowhere did it say, if you're not 100% unschooling, you're not
welcome. Nowhere did it say, if you're still unsure about going 100%
unschooling, your non-unschooling ideas that worked for you, might
get critised.
-=-=-=-=-
Exactly HOW would non-unschooling ideas work in an unschooling home?
-==-=-=-=-
Is it right that I should worry about sharing some of
my experience or post my ignorant non -unschooling opinions, and face
the possibility of being critized?
-=-=-=-=-
I think posting non-unschooling questions is good.
Posting non-unschooling opinions will get questions and
criticized---yes, on an unschooling list.
You expect them to get accepted as, "well, yeah--whatever works for
you" ??
-=-=-=-=-
I do get very upset if I'm
critised because it's basically telling me I'm not good enough. Or
that my ideas are rubbish. I get very upset seeng other parents being
critised because I see it as bullying, and not the "constructive
critism" as one might try to defend it.
-=-=-=-=-
*People* aren't being criticized. Their ideas or actions *are*.
And if *you* feel not good enough, that's something *you* might need to
work on.
*Many* ideas are rubbish. The majority of the world thinks that the
idea of unschooling is rubbish. Does that make me feel "not good
enough"? Should it?
I can't control how upset *you* get or why. I can do something about
how upset my own children feel if I were to turn off or limit their TV
viewing. Or throw away their game pieces because I didn't want to put
them away. *YOU* can choose to help your children navigate their worlds
OR you can navigate their worlds for them by limiting and being
resentful of the work you must put into it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It makes me question how much freedom am I allowed to share my
problems, experience and beliefs on this list, without getting a
sharp reprove? What works for my family, might not work for another,
but then maybe, just maybe, my answer might be able to provide some
better alternative ideas, some comfort or perhaps support.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe. But if your answer won't hold water,....
Can you defend your position? Just because you have an answer, does it
make it a good solution? Does it fit within unschooling principles of
trust and respect, patience and generosity?
-=-=-=-=-=-=
Does this means if I'm not ready to release full control to my son
with regards to tv or anything for that matter, does that invalidate
all these unschooling living that we've been doing for the past 11
months?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Are you working towards a more joyful, respectful, trusting
relationship?
-=-=-==-=-
The last thing we need when appealing to this list for comfort and
support, or share "well meaning" non-schooling ways of doing things,
to help further ease the burden and scary journey into "letting go of
central command", is being told we're not unschooling enough, or that
we're failing our children because of not being able to release full
control to him! What a slap to the face and confidence!
-=-=-=-=-=--=
This list is not here for comfort or support. So you're right when you
say that it is the "last thing" we need.
Not that the list doesn't give comfort and support. Indeed it often
does. But that's not its purpose or intent.
If I were to agree that TV is addictive and that it's OK for parents to
be resentful and vindictive, would that actually HELP someone unschool?
How exactly would that help? If I were to agree that arbitrary limits
are necessary in some familes, how would that help someone ease into
unschooling?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think it's only fair that everyone is allowed to post and received
any message, no matter how silly/ non-unschooling it is, without any
prejudice.
-=-=-=-=-
It might seem fair to *you*. We moderate posts until we feel that
person isn't going to spam or be a nuisance---so not *all* messages go
through.
-=-=-=-=-
And that we are allowed the full freedom and the trust
that we will know what's best for our children and will eventually
learn to let go, slow but surely.
-=-=-=-=-
I have absolutley NO control over what any list member does at home.
NONE.
You DO have full freedom to do whatever you want at home. (You do not
necessarily have that freedom on this list.) I can trust you will do
what you feel is best with your children. I would hope you wouldn't do
what's not in their best interests.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com