Nittany Lion

I'm 100% unschooling when it comes to learning "academics" in its variety of
forms in everyday life. The feminist in me struggles with aspects of
unschooling like chores. My mom was the type who did everything for my dad
and my brother and I. As I got older I hated seeing her being treated as a
traditional housewife, who kept the house and catered to everyone in it,
simply bc she was a woman. I don't want my girls to think they will be
expected to clean and cook and do all the chores for their household and I
don't want my son to expect that role from his wife should he decide to
marry.

For me personally, I don't have the energy, desire or time to clean up after
everyone (I have 4 kids btw ages 8, 6, 4 and 17 months, so I am wiped out
anyway!). I get resentful when I clean a room only to have it get messed up
and left that way. I'm fine with the mess, but not with cleaning it up if I
didn't make it. I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty clothes, or my
mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do all the
chores, especially their messes? Shouldn't everyone chip in while in a
communal environment (as all houses are)? I'm not a neat freak, I don't
mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am expected to do
all the chores over and over. I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc they
were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want to burden
the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc (as I told
them) I am not their servant.

What are your thoughts or opinions?

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], Nittany Lion
<dsweeney@...> wrote:
>
> I'm 100% unschooling when it comes to learning "academics" in its
variety of
> forms in everyday life. The feminist in me struggles with
aspects of
> unschooling like chores. My mom was the type who did everything
for my dad
> and my brother and I. As I got older I hated seeing her being
treated as a
> traditional housewife, who kept the house and catered to everyone
in it,
> simply bc she was a woman.

Growing up why did you not "help" your mom? did you have ANY
required chores? Did you want to help and she not let you or did you
feel it was not your job



I don't want my girls to think they will be
> expected to clean and cook and do all the chores for their
household and I
> don't want my son to expect that role from his wife should he
decide to
> marry.

I do not want my slef, husband, boy, or girls to grow up thinking
they "HAVE" to do anything. I want them to do everything because
they choose to not because someone says they "should"




>
> For me personally, I don't have the energy, desire or time to
clean up after
> everyone (I have 4 kids btw ages 8, 6, 4 and 17 months, so I am
wiped out
> anyway!). I get resentful when I clean a room only to have it get
messed up
> and left that way. I'm fine with the mess, but not with cleaning
it up if I
> didn't make it. I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty
clothes, or my
> mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do
all the
> chores, especially their messes? Shouldn't everyone chip in while
in a
> communal environment (as all houses are)? I'm not a neat freak, I
don't
> mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am
expected to do
> all the chores over and over.


I found that the more I took care of messes the more people in turn
helped me..

For instance my youngest is almost 3 and she was mad and tossed
about 20 movies onthe floor. I took her in my arms and was tlaking
about why hse was upset and my older daughter who is 4.5 said -you
hold her mom I will pick them up"---

another time we were walking out the door and the older one tripped
over the lego bucket and they dumped- we were just going to leave it
but the little one said she wanted to clean it up - so we did

If you are not MADE to do "your" part and begrudge your "part" then
everybody does what they want to instead of have to.

I usually do all the surface cleaning but every so often my husband
deep cleans the kitchen or bathrooms. We each do what we are willing
to do.

I used to "expect' my husband to help bring in the groceries but he
did it snarling and acted put out. I realized that this was an
expectation I had but he did not and so I told him that I would
bring in the bags and if he felt like helping he could but it was
not a have to. For a few months he did not help and I did not ask
nor did I act like "I" was put out or pissed off that he was not
helping. Then he started asking how many bags there were and I would
say how many more trips I thought were left and then he "ask" if I
wanted help and I said "if you want to". now most of the time he
just puts on his shoes and comes to help.

I notice that before you give chores kids LOVE to help out and then
with chores they only want to do the minimal amount of work and you
have to fight to get it done. We call if "age" but maybe it is just
because it is no longer a choice but a chore

I was raised to NOT leave dishes in the sink- As an adult i leave
the dishes for the day in the sink and on the counter and then MOST
days I do a load but SOME days I wait till the next day. I noticed
that I do not MIND doing dishes as long as I choose WHEN I want to
do them. I hate doing dishes right after a meal- I want to sit and
settle and after a few hours do dishes.



I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc they
> were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want
to burden
> the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc
(as I told
> them) I am not their servant.

No you are not the servant but neither are they. If they see what a
pain it is for you to clean up why would they want to do something
that you obviously hate to do.

You made a choice to NOT clean out the games and then punished them
for your choice. I would have dumped them all in a bucket until
somebody - maybe you- maybe them- maybe grandma- choose to sort
them.

You are thinking in terms of expectations but maybe it is about
choosing- you choose to be mom, you choose where to clean and when
to clean or even if you want to clean. At the moment my toliets are
growing things in the bowl and I and starting to feel the need to
clean them (for the record I hate to clean bathrooms) BUT my husband
might get the urge sooner (which I am secretly hoping for) but I am
home in the morning so I think it will get done then.


can you see the difference between thinking you have to and choosing
to. I clean up for my kids because the sometimes do not know where
to start or what goes where but they like to sweep and vaccumm and
dust when the urge hits and sometimes they jsut spontansously clean
and organize

JulieH

Kim Johnstone

--- In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:

> I notice that before you give chores kids LOVE to help out and then
> with chores they only want to do the minimal amount of work and you
> have to fight to get it done. We call if "age" but maybe it is just
> because it is no longer a choice but a chore


How do you suggest going about doing housework as a family in some
sort of organized fashion?

In September, when we began homeschooling in a semi-structured
eclectic sort of way, we had a morning routine (eat breakfast, make
beds, do a rotating chore, reading time, etc.) but since we've begun
making the switch to unschooling we dropped the routine. The housework
has suffered incredibly. I don't have the standard of wanting
sparkling floors but I would really enjoy it if our home was less of a
disaster zone so we could more freely do projects and make meals!

So, do I start up my own routines and wait for my kids (2 years and 7
years) to follow along as they're ready? Or do we set up job lists
with the older child's input? I feel we need some sort of system in
place just to make sure the daily things get done and work doesn't
pile up.

Kim (who really enjoys reading all the thought-provoking threads on
this list!)

Sylvia Toyama

I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty clothes, or my mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do all the chores, especially their messes?

*****
Do they expect you to clean up their messes, or is that it just doesn't occur to them to do it? Would they care if the house was left messy all the time?

*****
Shouldn't everyone chip in while in a communal environment (as all houses are)? I'm not a neat freak, I don't mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am expected to do all the chores over and over.

****
It sounds to me like you're the one expecting that someone -- preferably those who make a mess -- should anticipate that it will need to be cleaned up. If it's simply that you are the one who likes it clean, then of course you're the one motivated to do the cleaning. At their ages, likely the mess doesn't bother them -- if they even see it.

*****
I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc they were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want to burden the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc (as I told them) I am not their servant.

*****
Have they told you they expect you to be their servant, or is that a feeling you've overlaid on the situation? Do they really leave all the work to you, or does it just feel that way? Do you ask for their help before you're angry about it? Do they see any joy from you in doing the housework, even just joy in having it clean? Or is it all made to look like so much drudgery?

I've recently looked -- again -- at answers to the chores question, in the course of a discussion with my mil. Here's what I come up with for myself -- I knew when I chose to have kids (I have three total, two still at home) that they'd create messes, and dirty up dishes and clothes, and track in mud/sand and throw shoes about. That's just part of what kids do. It's part and parcel of having kids in my life. I don't really mind the extra work -- most of the time. Also, it helps to see that my kids do help out. No, it seldom occurs to them to wash the dishes, tho Andy (11) always brings his dishes to the sink. Andy will put his clothes away after I fold them, and always puts his clothes in the hamper. Not because we ask him to, but because that level of organization is part of his personality. So is having his legos scattered in a somewhat controlled pile on his bedroom floor.<g>

Dan (6) loves to dump his legos -- tho he does always ask first -- take the cushions off the couch, mess up my bed anytime I make it, and almost never returns dishes to the kitchen. He also loves to scrub the bathtub and shower, mops the kitchen floor, and wash windows, mirrors and walls. Not necessarily as well as I'd do them, but he loves to do it. He insists on emptying the cooler on Thurs morning when milk, eggs, etc, are delivered to our house. He lugs it all in, refusing all offers of help, and puts everything in the fridge.

Both boys will take out the trash if they're not already busy when asked, fight over who opens the carport gate for me, and who 'gets' to drag the trashcan to the curb and back. Dan loves to help me bake, and Andy can make a variety of easy foods -- frozen pizza, toast, sandwiches. Just a few days ago, he brought me a peanutbutter sandwich he'd made just for me, because he was hungry and thought of me! Both regularly get their own breakfast cereal or a glass of milk from the fridge. Andy also helps Dan with reading things, figuring out new computer games, setting up shows to DVR, and so on.

My thoughts on it are that because we've never required that they *do their part* they are more willing to help out. They see that I/we do the housekeeping because we like things to be neat. I've explained that the more help I get, the sooner it's done and the sooner I'm free to do something with them. When I ask for help, I do make an effort to play to their preferences, to ask only when they're not busy with something else and to always be willing to hear 'no' to a request to help out.

Sylvia



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

I don't think this is a feminist issue. I think it is a resentment issue. It might feel better to phrase it as instructive to demonstrate to your own children how women aren't the servants in a household, but really what you are demonstrating is that cleaning up is a pain in the ass and can only be done under duress.

At the minute, in my house, the kitchen is fairly clean (it usually is) the living room is filled with the ruins of youtube inspired domino projects and blocks and pocket pets and stuffed animals, one bedroom is completely occluded with toys and another is only partially occluded and the cat box probably needs cleaning. We have been incredibly busy lately and last night was the first night in 4 of not having someone sleeping over. There are costumes to plan and to put together for tomorrow's party and cookies to bake and bread to be made, I need to get world of warcraft to update on 2 computers so that people (myself included) can play. And all these more interesting, more important things conspire to keep cleaning the house lower down on the list of things to do. When cleaning the house gets to my breaking point, my I just can't take stepping on toys anymore point I will clean it. And often cleaning the living room happens when I'm watching television,
general picking up. Vacuuming is a bigger palaver.

Anyhow, all of that is to say that I can fully sympathize with a messy house. And to set a scene. I can choose to respond to that scene in quite a few different ways. I can choose to ignore it and wait for others to feel the need to clean it, which would probably push me beyond my comfort level and into that itchy, irritable point where I just can't think quite straight and I feel more and more resentful about and aware of the mess. I can freak out and yell and/or lecture about how I didn't make the mess and can't people clean up after themselves, and why can't they at least use one of the many trash cans I put in a room. I can do what my mom used to do and make them go sit in a room until it is clean, which usually ended up with much of my stuff shoved under the bed. All of those might get the house clean, but are much more likely to make everyone feel angry and sad and hurt and feel like cleaning is a miserable experience that no one could possibly
want to do. The option that leads to the best outcome, a cleaner house and happy folk all round, is where I start cleaning and ask for help. Sometimes I get help and sometimes I don't. I can get really into cleaning, setting up little toy dioramas for Simon and Linnaea to discover and explore, finding things I forgot existed, and so, probably, did they. I like seeing what they've pulled out of all of their toys and see where they've been (like your 4 board games that you threw away--I would rather save them knowing that they had enjoyed them that day, probably they would enjoy them again). And yes, invariable, all of the work I put in will be whittled away until we are back here with our time defined by the messes we've made.

I like to think of my cleaning up as a gift. I like to be able to clear the slate for future explorations in rube goldberg machines or artistic endeavors, or dancing without lego pieces getting stuck to the arch of a foot, or discovering long forgotten toys. Some moments I don't quite get there. Usually when I am feeling rushed or overwhelmed or tired or pre-menstrual. But it helps me if those moments become just a tidy and not a full involved clean. If I am cleaning for company, I can close bedroom doors and just make the public space as clean as my sense of hospitality requires.

One of the other things you could do is hire someone to come in once a week or twice a month and clean. Surely the amount of money that you spend on a maid service would be worth the peace of mind that you have and worth your children's peace. You have young children, it seems really unfair to expect them to clean up after themselves. Much better to hire someone to do the work for all of you. And then you can focus on the things you find more joyful in life.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

-----------------


I'm 100% unschooling when it comes to learning "academics" in its variety of
forms in everyday life. The feminist in me struggles with aspects of
unschooling like chores. My mom was the type who did everything for my dad
and my brother and I. As I got older I hated seeing her being treated as a
traditional housewife, who kept the house and catered to everyone in it,
simply bc she was a woman. I don't want my girls to think they will be
expected to clean and cook and do all the chores for their household and I
don't want my son to expect that role from his wife should he decide to
marry.

For me personally, I don't have the energy, desire or time to clean up after
everyone (I have 4 kids btw ages 8, 6, 4 and 17 months, so I am wiped out
anyway!). I get resentful when I clean a room only to have it get messed up
and left that way. I'm fine with the mess, but not with cleaning it up if I
didn't make it. I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty clothes, or my
mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do all the
chores, especially their messes? Shouldn't everyone chip in while in a
communal environment (as all houses are)? I'm not a neat freak, I don't
mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am expected to do
all the chores over and over. I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc they
were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want to burden
the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc (as I told
them) I am not their servant.

What are your thoughts or opinions?





Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rpindc04

I can sympathize, being new at unschooling (2 months). Here is my
report, so far. By chance or grace or re-reading some postings, I
suddenly *got* the notion of my 10-year old (and only) son needing
TLC in this time of de-schooling. And maybe he needs TLC just because
he is my son, and 10 years old, and the world can be awesome for a
kid. So, I found I was happy to bring him his lunch, and be with him
more. I am pretty ok with taking his plate to the dishwasher,
cleaning his misses in the bathroom, picking up his toys. I still
have a side that says,"Why are you doing this. What about his doing
his own chores?" So, I tell myself, "Let's see what will happen if I
care for him in this way."

What is happening is that he is relaxing more and more, in ways I did
not even know he might need to. His smiles come easier. His
appreciation for me and what I do just appear out of nowhere. He
occassionally helps out.

I think I am seeing a very real display here of how having required-
chores makes one feel resentful, burdened, less joyful. I do not feel
burdened because these chores I do are done out of my choice. He
helps with a smile on his face now.

I was brought up to think that we had to have chores to learn how to
do them. And, we had to have them so we would learn to be responsible
human beings. Neither of htose arguements is holding water for me now.

Re:Feminism. I think the word has gotten a bad rap. In my definition,
it is about being able to be a full person, and I happen to be a
woman, so that affects who I am, my fullness. Part of my fullness is
the great privelege of being a mother. I get to define that as I
define myself. I used to define that, in part, as training my child
to pick up, clean, etc. In my moments of wider vision, I came to see
that I was doing that because that is what others did, rather than
out of my own clear thought. Now, I am experimenting with this new
way, and finding it way preferable. I choose to love him and care for
him by cleaning, even cleaning his messes that I used to make him
clean himself. It is an interesting time, feeling what that feels
like, seeing what impact it has on him. So far, so good.

I know it must be different with multiple children. I wish you well.


Robbin

--- In [email protected], ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
<s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think this is a feminist issue. I think it is a resentment
issue. It might feel better to phrase it as instructive to
demonstrate to your own children how women aren't the servants in a
household, but really what you are demonstrating is that cleaning up
is a pain in the ass and can only be done under duress.
>
> At the minute, in my house, the kitchen is fairly clean (it usually
is) the living room is filled with the ruins of youtube inspired
domino projects and blocks and pocket pets and stuffed animals, one
bedroom is completely occluded with toys and another is only
partially occluded and the cat box probably needs cleaning. We have
been incredibly busy lately and last night was the first night in 4
of not having someone sleeping over. There are costumes to plan and
to put together for tomorrow's party and cookies to bake and bread to
be made, I need to get world of warcraft to update on 2 computers so
that people (myself included) can play. And all these more
interesting, more important things conspire to keep cleaning the
house lower down on the list of things to do. When cleaning the house
gets to my breaking point, my I just can't take stepping on toys
anymore point I will clean it. And often cleaning the living room
happens when I'm watching television,
> general picking up. Vacuuming is a bigger palaver.
>
> Anyhow, all of that is to say that I can fully sympathize with a
messy house. And to set a scene. I can choose to respond to that
scene in quite a few different ways. I can choose to ignore it and
wait for others to feel the need to clean it, which would probably
push me beyond my comfort level and into that itchy, irritable point
where I just can't think quite straight and I feel more and more
resentful about and aware of the mess. I can freak out and yell
and/or lecture about how I didn't make the mess and can't people
clean up after themselves, and why can't they at least use one of the
many trash cans I put in a room. I can do what my mom used to do and
make them go sit in a room until it is clean, which usually ended up
with much of my stuff shoved under the bed. All of those might get
the house clean, but are much more likely to make everyone feel angry
and sad and hurt and feel like cleaning is a miserable experience
that no one could possibly
> want to do. The option that leads to the best outcome, a cleaner
house and happy folk all round, is where I start cleaning and ask for
help. Sometimes I get help and sometimes I don't. I can get really
into cleaning, setting up little toy dioramas for Simon and Linnaea
to discover and explore, finding things I forgot existed, and so,
probably, did they. I like seeing what they've pulled out of all of
their toys and see where they've been (like your 4 board games that
you threw away--I would rather save them knowing that they had
enjoyed them that day, probably they would enjoy them again). And
yes, invariable, all of the work I put in will be whittled away until
we are back here with our time defined by the messes we've made.
>
> I like to think of my cleaning up as a gift. I like to be able to
clear the slate for future explorations in rube goldberg machines or
artistic endeavors, or dancing without lego pieces getting stuck to
the arch of a foot, or discovering long forgotten toys. Some moments
I don't quite get there. Usually when I am feeling rushed or
overwhelmed or tired or pre-menstrual. But it helps me if those
moments become just a tidy and not a full involved clean. If I am
cleaning for company, I can close bedroom doors and just make the
public space as clean as my sense of hospitality requires.
>
> One of the other things you could do is hire someone to come in
once a week or twice a month and clean. Surely the amount of money
that you spend on a maid service would be worth the peace of mind
that you have and worth your children's peace. You have young
children, it seems really unfair to expect them to clean up after
themselves. Much better to hire someone to do the work for all of
you. And then you can focus on the things you find more joyful in
life.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
> -----------------
>
>
> I'm 100% unschooling when it comes to learning "academics" in its
variety of
> forms in everyday life. The feminist in me struggles with aspects
of
> unschooling like chores. My mom was the type who did everything
for my dad
> and my brother and I. As I got older I hated seeing her being
treated as a
> traditional housewife, who kept the house and catered to everyone
in it,
> simply bc she was a woman. I don't want my girls to think they
will be
> expected to clean and cook and do all the chores for their
household and I
> don't want my son to expect that role from his wife should he
decide to
> marry.
>
> For me personally, I don't have the energy, desire or time to clean
up after
> everyone (I have 4 kids btw ages 8, 6, 4 and 17 months, so I am
wiped out
> anyway!). I get resentful when I clean a room only to have it get
messed up
> and left that way. I'm fine with the mess, but not with cleaning
it up if I
> didn't make it. I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty clothes,
or my
> mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do
all the
> chores, especially their messes? Shouldn't everyone chip in while
in a
> communal environment (as all houses are)? I'm not a neat freak, I
don't
> mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am
expected to do
> all the chores over and over. I once threw away 4 or 5 board games
bc they
> were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want
to burden
> the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc
(as I told
> them) I am not their servant.
>
> What are your thoughts or opinions?
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

~~I used to "expect' my husband to help bring in the groceries but he
did it snarling and acted put out. ~~

I used to expect it and when he didn't jump up as soon as I walked in
the door I felt resentful. He didn't even realize that was a token of
caring in my mind. I thought he was really being a jerk letting me
carry all those groceries in myself.

When I finally expressed how it felt, he was surprised. When I get
home with groceries now (if he or the kids aren't with me) I yell out
"hey, I could use some help with these groceries" or "Could everyone
come grab a couple bags please?" and it's amazing how much help I get!

I know we can make other choices than resentment. Expectations can get
in the way of reality. I'm learning repeatedly, that a joyful, kind
person gets more help than a resentful, grumpy person.:) Smart people
that they are, they learn to avoid a nasty grump.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~. but got pissed and threw them out bc (as I told
them) I am not their servant.

What are your thoughts or opinions?~~

You asked.:)

My first thought is that you should have thought about the extra mess
and work before you had kids! ;) Having children means accepting a LOT
of extra inconvenience, mess and chaos. Expecting them to understand
an adult need for order is setting yourself up for some really
negative energy.

Throwing out games seems pretty cruel to me. Maybe the kids would have
been happy to sort them out at a later time. Maybe they wanted to play
with them in a different way, with all the pieces combined. Maybe it
didn't seem stressful or messy to them at all. Why shouldn't their way
be honored? Those games could have been thrown into a bin and a choice
made about it later. It could have led to some really fun sorting time
together...laughter, talking etc...while everyone put them back.

It's about connections and if you're feeling like a servant, that will
really short circuit connection time.

In unschooling, the priority is healthy relationships. If that is the
goal, it changes every interaction, every choice. Choosing to make a
happy home, choosing to provide order for the sake of everyone in the
family is not being a servant. It is service though. The difference is
that a servant has little choice in the matter. You have a choice.

Choosing joy and service over resentment will probably lead to more
help in the long run. It will definitely lead to less stressful
interactions.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

This was in my inbox this morning. I thought it was cute and related
to the topic at hand so I wanted to share. It's from the
storypeople.com site (I get their daily "story"):

"There are things you do because they feel right & they may make no
sense & they may make no money & it may be the real reason we are
here: to love each other & to eat each other's cooking & say it was good."

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Nittany Lion

>Have they told you they expect you to be their servant, or is that a
>feeling you've overlaid on the situation? >Do they really leave all the
>work to you, or does it just feel that way? Do you ask for their help
>before >you're angry about it? Do they see any joy from you in doing the
>housework, even just joy in having it >clean? Or is it all made to look
>like so much drudgery?


No, they haven't told me that they expect me to be their servant - that is
what I feel like when I'm fustrated. They don't leave all the housework to
me - it feels that way sometimes. I let things go for days and weeks, in
the complete unschooling mode - then, when I'm tired, fustrated and have
little time, I get resentful and question the complete unschooling mode.

Dawn




----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvia Toyama" <sylgt04@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] the feminist in me


>I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty clothes, or my mess in the
>kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do all the chores,
>especially their messes?
>
> *****
> Do they expect you to clean up their messes, or is that it just doesn't
> occur to them to do it? Would they care if the house was left messy all
> the time?
>
> *****
> Shouldn't everyone chip in while in a communal environment (as all houses
> are)? I'm not a neat freak, I don't mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I
> just resent it when I am expected to do all the chores over and over.
>
> ****
> It sounds to me like you're the one expecting that someone -- preferably
> those who make a mess -- should anticipate that it will need to be cleaned
> up. If it's simply that you are the one who likes it clean, then of
> course you're the one motivated to do the cleaning. At their ages, likely
> the mess doesn't bother them -- if they even see it.
>
> *****
> I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc they were left out for days,
> pieces all over the place - I didn't want to burden the kids with cleaning
> . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc (as I told them) I am not their
> servant.
>
> *****
> Have they told you they expect you to be their servant, or is that a
> feeling you've overlaid on the situation? Do they really leave all the
> work to you, or does it just feel that way? Do you ask for their help
> before you're angry about it? Do they see any joy from you in doing the
> housework, even just joy in having it clean? Or is it all made to look
> like so much drudgery?
>
> I've recently looked -- again -- at answers to the chores question, in
> the course of a discussion with my mil. Here's what I come up with for
> myself -- I knew when I chose to have kids (I have three total, two still
> at home) that they'd create messes, and dirty up dishes and clothes, and
> track in mud/sand and throw shoes about. That's just part of what kids
> do. It's part and parcel of having kids in my life. I don't really mind
> the extra work -- most of the time. Also, it helps to see that my kids
> do help out. No, it seldom occurs to them to wash the dishes, tho Andy
> (11) always brings his dishes to the sink. Andy will put his clothes away
> after I fold them, and always puts his clothes in the hamper. Not because
> we ask him to, but because that level of organization is part of his
> personality. So is having his legos scattered in a somewhat controlled
> pile on his bedroom floor.<g>
>
> Dan (6) loves to dump his legos -- tho he does always ask first -- take
> the cushions off the couch, mess up my bed anytime I make it, and almost
> never returns dishes to the kitchen. He also loves to scrub the bathtub
> and shower, mops the kitchen floor, and wash windows, mirrors and walls.
> Not necessarily as well as I'd do them, but he loves to do it. He insists
> on emptying the cooler on Thurs morning when milk, eggs, etc, are
> delivered to our house. He lugs it all in, refusing all offers of help,
> and puts everything in the fridge.
>
> Both boys will take out the trash if they're not already busy when asked,
> fight over who opens the carport gate for me, and who 'gets' to drag the
> trashcan to the curb and back. Dan loves to help me bake, and Andy can
> make a variety of easy foods -- frozen pizza, toast, sandwiches. Just a
> few days ago, he brought me a peanutbutter sandwich he'd made just for me,
> because he was hungry and thought of me! Both regularly get their own
> breakfast cereal or a glass of milk from the fridge. Andy also helps Dan
> with reading things, figuring out new computer games, setting up shows to
> DVR, and so on.
>
> My thoughts on it are that because we've never required that they *do
> their part* they are more willing to help out. They see that I/we do the
> housekeeping because we like things to be neat. I've explained that the
> more help I get, the sooner it's done and the sooner I'm free to do
> something with them. When I ask for help, I do make an effort to play to
> their preferences, to ask only when they're not busy with something else
> and to always be willing to hear 'no' to a request to help out.
>
> Sylvia
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Nittany Lion

I would love to have someone come clean my house! Yes, I do realize its a
resentment issue. More towards my parents than anything else (they were
very structured, fundamentalist). I also feel like since I'm okay with my
kids and my husband having their freedom to do as they wish (at least until
I lose my patience), I should get some respect for my efforts - I do think
they should put their dishes in the sink and keep the common areas cleaner
at some point during the day or week (the living room and half of the den,
they can do whatever to the other half).

We don't do chores - the only time I do anything to their rooms is when the
fruit flies come. I sweep out under their beds into the middle of the
floor - grab the half eaten apples and banana peels, tell them to take what
they want to keep and we throw away the rest. We do it together, 2 or 3
times a year. I don't ask them to clean the kitchen or the bathroom - just
to take care of their part of what they mess up.

Dawn

----- Original Message -----
From: "ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH" <s.waynforth@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] the feminist in me


>I don't think this is a feminist issue. I think it is a resentment issue.
>It might feel better to phrase it as instructive to demonstrate to your own
>children how women aren't the servants in a household, but really what you
>are demonstrating is that cleaning up is a pain in the ass and can only be
>done under duress.
>
> At the minute, in my house, the kitchen is fairly clean (it usually is)
> the living room is filled with the ruins of youtube inspired domino
> projects and blocks and pocket pets and stuffed animals, one bedroom is
> completely occluded with toys and another is only partially occluded and
> the cat box probably needs cleaning. We have been incredibly busy lately
> and last night was the first night in 4 of not having someone sleeping
> over. There are costumes to plan and to put together for tomorrow's party
> and cookies to bake and bread to be made, I need to get world of warcraft
> to update on 2 computers so that people (myself included) can play. And
> all these more interesting, more important things conspire to keep
> cleaning the house lower down on the list of things to do. When cleaning
> the house gets to my breaking point, my I just can't take stepping on toys
> anymore point I will clean it. And often cleaning the living room happens
> when I'm watching television,
> general picking up. Vacuuming is a bigger palaver.
>
> Anyhow, all of that is to say that I can fully sympathize with a messy
> house. And to set a scene. I can choose to respond to that scene in quite
> a few different ways. I can choose to ignore it and wait for others to
> feel the need to clean it, which would probably push me beyond my comfort
> level and into that itchy, irritable point where I just can't think quite
> straight and I feel more and more resentful about and aware of the mess. I
> can freak out and yell and/or lecture about how I didn't make the mess and
> can't people clean up after themselves, and why can't they at least use
> one of the many trash cans I put in a room. I can do what my mom used to
> do and make them go sit in a room until it is clean, which usually ended
> up with much of my stuff shoved under the bed. All of those might get the
> house clean, but are much more likely to make everyone feel angry and sad
> and hurt and feel like cleaning is a miserable experience that no one
> could possibly
> want to do. The option that leads to the best outcome, a cleaner house and
> happy folk all round, is where I start cleaning and ask for help.
> Sometimes I get help and sometimes I don't. I can get really into
> cleaning, setting up little toy dioramas for Simon and Linnaea to discover
> and explore, finding things I forgot existed, and so, probably, did they.
> I like seeing what they've pulled out of all of their toys and see where
> they've been (like your 4 board games that you threw away--I would rather
> save them knowing that they had enjoyed them that day, probably they would
> enjoy them again). And yes, invariable, all of the work I put in will be
> whittled away until we are back here with our time defined by the messes
> we've made.
>
> I like to think of my cleaning up as a gift. I like to be able to clear
> the slate for future explorations in rube goldberg machines or artistic
> endeavors, or dancing without lego pieces getting stuck to the arch of a
> foot, or discovering long forgotten toys. Some moments I don't quite get
> there. Usually when I am feeling rushed or overwhelmed or tired or
> pre-menstrual. But it helps me if those moments become just a tidy and not
> a full involved clean. If I am cleaning for company, I can close bedroom
> doors and just make the public space as clean as my sense of hospitality
> requires.
>
> One of the other things you could do is hire someone to come in once a
> week or twice a month and clean. Surely the amount of money that you spend
> on a maid service would be worth the peace of mind that you have and worth
> your children's peace. You have young children, it seems really unfair to
> expect them to clean up after themselves. Much better to hire someone to
> do the work for all of you. And then you can focus on the things you find
> more joyful in life.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
> -----------------
>
>
> I'm 100% unschooling when it comes to learning "academics" in its variety
> of
> forms in everyday life. The feminist in me struggles with aspects of
> unschooling like chores. My mom was the type who did everything for my
> dad
> and my brother and I. As I got older I hated seeing her being treated as
> a
> traditional housewife, who kept the house and catered to everyone in it,
> simply bc she was a woman. I don't want my girls to think they will be
> expected to clean and cook and do all the chores for their household and I
> don't want my son to expect that role from his wife should he decide to
> marry.
>
> For me personally, I don't have the energy, desire or time to clean up
> after
> everyone (I have 4 kids btw ages 8, 6, 4 and 17 months, so I am wiped out
> anyway!). I get resentful when I clean a room only to have it get messed
> up
> and left that way. I'm fine with the mess, but not with cleaning it up if
> I
> didn't make it. I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty clothes, or my
> mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do all the
> chores, especially their messes? Shouldn't everyone chip in while in a
> communal environment (as all houses are)? I'm not a neat freak, I don't
> mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am expected to
> do
> all the chores over and over. I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc
> they
> were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want to
> burden
> the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc (as I
> told
> them) I am not their servant.
>
> What are your thoughts or opinions?
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Nittany Lion

> Growing up why did you not "help" your mom? did you have ANY
> required chores? Did you want to help and she not let you or did you
> feel it was not your job

We got paid for doing chores, had assigned ones. My dad would wake us up at
8:00 AM on Saturdays to do chores. I hated it, I hated just being woken up
and doing the chores even more. The thing I enjoyed was doing a major
cleaning every now and then. And once I started driving, I did the grocery
shopping which I really enjoyed. My mom worked and I know she appreciated
that. But laundry, ironing and keeping the house clean all the time was on
my mom. We had a couch in the living room that no one was allowed to sit
on - it was to be kept nice. I don't wish these things on my kids and try,
sometimes really hard not to say anything.

Dawn

----- Original Message -----
From: "wisdomalways5" <wisdom1133@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:12 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: the feminist in me


> --- In [email protected], Nittany Lion
> <dsweeney@...> wrote:
>>
>> I'm 100% unschooling when it comes to learning "academics" in its
> variety of
>> forms in everyday life. The feminist in me struggles with
> aspects of
>> unschooling like chores. My mom was the type who did everything
> for my dad
>> and my brother and I. As I got older I hated seeing her being
> treated as a
>> traditional housewife, who kept the house and catered to everyone
> in it,
>> simply bc she was a woman.
>
> Growing up why did you not "help" your mom? did you have ANY
> required chores? Did you want to help and she not let you or did you
> feel it was not your job
>
>
>
> I don't want my girls to think they will be
>> expected to clean and cook and do all the chores for their
> household and I
>> don't want my son to expect that role from his wife should he
> decide to
>> marry.
>
> I do not want my slef, husband, boy, or girls to grow up thinking
> they "HAVE" to do anything. I want them to do everything because
> they choose to not because someone says they "should"
>
>
>
>
>>
>> For me personally, I don't have the energy, desire or time to
> clean up after
>> everyone (I have 4 kids btw ages 8, 6, 4 and 17 months, so I am
> wiped out
>> anyway!). I get resentful when I clean a room only to have it get
> messed up
>> and left that way. I'm fine with the mess, but not with cleaning
> it up if I
>> didn't make it. I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty
> clothes, or my
>> mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do
> all the
>> chores, especially their messes? Shouldn't everyone chip in while
> in a
>> communal environment (as all houses are)? I'm not a neat freak, I
> don't
>> mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am
> expected to do
>> all the chores over and over.
>
>
> I found that the more I took care of messes the more people in turn
> helped me..
>
> For instance my youngest is almost 3 and she was mad and tossed
> about 20 movies onthe floor. I took her in my arms and was tlaking
> about why hse was upset and my older daughter who is 4.5 said -you
> hold her mom I will pick them up"---
>
> another time we were walking out the door and the older one tripped
> over the lego bucket and they dumped- we were just going to leave it
> but the little one said she wanted to clean it up - so we did
>
> If you are not MADE to do "your" part and begrudge your "part" then
> everybody does what they want to instead of have to.
>
> I usually do all the surface cleaning but every so often my husband
> deep cleans the kitchen or bathrooms. We each do what we are willing
> to do.
>
> I used to "expect' my husband to help bring in the groceries but he
> did it snarling and acted put out. I realized that this was an
> expectation I had but he did not and so I told him that I would
> bring in the bags and if he felt like helping he could but it was
> not a have to. For a few months he did not help and I did not ask
> nor did I act like "I" was put out or pissed off that he was not
> helping. Then he started asking how many bags there were and I would
> say how many more trips I thought were left and then he "ask" if I
> wanted help and I said "if you want to". now most of the time he
> just puts on his shoes and comes to help.
>
> I notice that before you give chores kids LOVE to help out and then
> with chores they only want to do the minimal amount of work and you
> have to fight to get it done. We call if "age" but maybe it is just
> because it is no longer a choice but a chore
>
> I was raised to NOT leave dishes in the sink- As an adult i leave
> the dishes for the day in the sink and on the counter and then MOST
> days I do a load but SOME days I wait till the next day. I noticed
> that I do not MIND doing dishes as long as I choose WHEN I want to
> do them. I hate doing dishes right after a meal- I want to sit and
> settle and after a few hours do dishes.
>
>
>
> I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc they
>> were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want
> to burden
>> the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc
> (as I told
>> them) I am not their servant.
>
> No you are not the servant but neither are they. If they see what a
> pain it is for you to clean up why would they want to do something
> that you obviously hate to do.
>
> You made a choice to NOT clean out the games and then punished them
> for your choice. I would have dumped them all in a bucket until
> somebody - maybe you- maybe them- maybe grandma- choose to sort
> them.
>
> You are thinking in terms of expectations but maybe it is about
> choosing- you choose to be mom, you choose where to clean and when
> to clean or even if you want to clean. At the moment my toliets are
> growing things in the bowl and I and starting to feel the need to
> clean them (for the record I hate to clean bathrooms) BUT my husband
> might get the urge sooner (which I am secretly hoping for) but I am
> home in the morning so I think it will get done then.
>
>
> can you see the difference between thinking you have to and choosing
> to. I clean up for my kids because the sometimes do not know where
> to start or what goes where but they like to sweep and vaccumm and
> dust when the urge hits and sometimes they jsut spontansously clean
> and organize
>
> JulieH
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Debra Rossing

>I also feel like since I'm okay with my kids and my husband having
their freedom to do as they wish (at least until I lose my patience), I
>should get some respect for my efforts -

Sounds more like you resent their freedom because you feel burdened by
the housework. Maybe don't "let it go" so long - it sounds as if you're
waiting and waiting (picture folded arms and tapping foot) until they
"realize" they "should" do something and it gets more and more out of
hand until finally you go ahead and "give in" and take care of it. How
about just doing what you see when you see it - a little here and there,
15 minutes in the kitchen then go do something else - watch TV, read,
knit, whatever - then 15 minutes in the living room and so on - rather
than waiting to see IF they are going to "finally take responsibility
for their own messes". As others said, maybe it's a change of those old
tapes in your head that are still playing and seeing everything you do
(or don't do) as YOUR choice. You can choose when and how and all to do
something. You can choose to resent them not helping or choose to ask
for assistance. The key to asking for assistance is making it a bit open
ended - that is, if you ask for the socks to be picked up off the living
room floor, do it with the expectation that it will get done *sometime*,
but not *necessarily* the very minute you ask. I've found it comes out
way better if I ask DS (9 yrs) "Hey, can you get the shoes rounded up at
the next commercial break?" (or when you finish this level or when
you've finished assembling that k'nex invention...) rather than stating
and/or expecting him to stop what he's doing *immediately* to do what
I've asked.

Deb

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[email protected]

I haven't read all of the responses yet, but I'll tell you what I did. I
used to do the chore charts, threats, punishments, bribes. You name it, I did
it.

Now, I ask for help. It's amazing how much my children want to spend time
with me. They also love to make mommy happy. I'm amazed daily at the amount of
love these children feel for me. I typically just say, "I'm going to tidy the
upstairs and dust. Do you want to work with me?" If they say no, I go to my
other child and ask them. If both children say no, I do the job myself. I act
joyful while cleaning (music on, dancing, singing, smiling). If a child
chooses to help, this child gets my full attention while helping me. It's not an
artificial bribe~just the nature of working with mom. This is often what the
children want from their parents. They want our time and attention.

When I started doing this, they said no more often. They wanted to know that
they could say no without my getting mad. Now that they know it really is
their choice, they often say yes. It's more work in the beginning than making a
chore chart, but in the long run, it works much better. The children also
learn to clean better by seeing your example. I don't have problems with two
children, but with four children, you may have to turn away help!

Shari
Wife to Ken
Mom to Nathan (9 years)
and Katie (3.5 years)
_http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com_
(http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com/)




************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/26/2007 6:45:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
kim.johnstone@... writes:

How do you suggest going about doing housework as a family in some
sort of organized fashion?


Kim,
You could set up a schedule for yourself. Fill in the basics that need to be
accomplished. Your children are still relatively young and would not be a
great help at this age. Like I posted earlier, cheerfully do your scheduled
chores and ask for help. If your child(ren) says yes, than you can accomplish
your task faster or you can get more done. If not, you still have the basics
done. If your child sees the blessing of spending time with you and having fun
with you, they will be more willing. This is a great time to teach your
children how to clean a toilet, or how to sweep the floor. Your child may
eventually be more willing to work on their own, but if not, working together is still
a great way to accomplish tasks. "Many hands make light work."

Shari
Wife to Ken
Mom to Nathan (9 years)
and Katie (3.5 years)
_http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com_
(http://crosstrainingacademy.blogspot.com/)




************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liberatedlrning

Delurking for this one,

Deb wrote pretty much what I was thinking. When we transitioned to
RUing the chore issue took a little longer to settle in my mind than the
academics shift .

What helped me was looking closely at and changing on my own attitude
towards housework. I decided that I needed to own my own standards.
They were MY standards and I needed to take responsibility for them, not
hoist them onto my family. I stopped expecting. I stopped expecting my
kids to have my same standards. I stopped expecting them to live up to
my standards. Letting go of expectations was the key to my shift in
attitude.

Looking back on it I think that there had to be a period of absolutely
no expectations or even requests for help - a de-choring if you will -
before my kids believed that any housework they did would be of their
own free will.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly. For me, I needed to release
all expectations and hopes that my kids would voluntarily pitch-in with
housework. I needed to do it cheerfully myself and let all resentment
evaporate. During that time I routinely and intentionally swept through
the house, including their bedrooms, and picked-up dirty dishes, took
out their trash, hauled out their dirty laundry etc. with a spirit of
generosity and love for the awesome people I'd chosen to bring into this
world.

It took some time but eventually my kids started to offer assistance or
do little things here and there without my asking. In the last year or
so I can now ask (always open-ended) for help and they usually oblige my
requests. I am careful not to abuse their generosity because I know that
my standards of clean are beyond theirs. Cleaning up can quickly go from
mutually satisfying to trying to satisfy mom if I'm not careful.

I try to always be respectful of their time and plans or activities and
let them know that if they are busy and don't want to break away, that
the task can either wait or I'll get to it soon enough.

My 16yo routinely takes the trash and recycling out each week. His
father will sometimes remind him, "Remember, you HAVE to take the trash
out tonight," and I usually insert, "if you're not busy or you don't
mind." Sometimes I take the trash out, just 'cause I think of it or I
know he is busy. DS also voluntarily does loads of laundry, loads and
unloads the dishwasher, cleans his room and mows the lawn when it needs
to be mowed (we pay him to do this but rarely need to ask him to do it.)

My 9yo daughter likes best to help out by surprising me with cleaning
her bedroom or the living room. These surprises usually entail
instructions to me like, "DON'T come in here until I say it's okay!" She
really loves the feeling of a surprise gift of cleaning. I often pick
up her room while I'm hanging out with her, listening to her read to me
or just chatting. She doesn't even notice I'm doing it at the time but
afterwards she notices how clean her room is and she thanks me!

When we're cleaning for guests my kids happily work off of my own list
and will even continued to cross off tasks while I'm out running
errands. There are times when they happily vaccuum, dust, mop etc. too

In my opinion and experience, the attitude one takes towards
housecleaning and their children's participation in housecleaning (or
lack thereof) can make all the difference in the world as to how things
work out.

Chris
<http://groups.yahoo.com/iaunschoolers>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iaunschoolers> Radically Unschooling in
Iowa <http://groups.yahoo.com/iaunschoolers>
Learning in the Unzone <http://www.zamunzo.blogspot.com>


--- In [email protected], "Debra Rossing"
<debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds more like you resent their freedom because you feel burdened by
> the housework. Maybe don't "let it go" so long - it sounds as if
you're
> waiting and waiting (picture folded arms and tapping foot) until they
> "realize" they "should" do something and it gets more and more out of
> hand until finally you go ahead and "give in" and take care of it. How
> about just doing what you see when you see it - a little here and
there,
> 15 minutes in the kitchen then go do something else - watch TV, read,
> knit, whatever - then 15 minutes in the living room and so on - rather
> than waiting to see IF they are going to "finally take responsibility
> for their own messes". As others said, maybe it's a change of those
old
> tapes in your head that are still playing and seeing everything you do
> (or don't do) as YOUR choice. You can choose when and how and all to
do
> something. You can choose to resent them not helping or choose to ask
> for assistance. The key to asking for assistance is making it a bit
open
> ended - that is, if you ask for the socks to be picked up off the
living
> room floor, do it with the expectation that it will get done
*sometime*,
> but not *necessarily* the very minute you ask. I've found it comes out
> way better if I ask DS (9 yrs) "Hey, can you get the shoes rounded up
at
> the next commercial break?" (or when you finish this level or when
> you've finished assembling that k'nex invention...) rather than
stating
> and/or expecting him to stop what he's doing *immediately* to do what
> I've asked.
>
> Deb
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather

This is a HUGE issue for me.

I want to come back and read all these responses, but I just have a
minute--

My husband has actually said to me that because he pays the bills, he
doesn't have to do HIS OWN LAUNDRY, dishes EVER, I pick up all his
soda cans and plates that he leaves laying around even in the
bathroom. The worst part? He's unemployed. He does eBay stuff, and
the occassional computer repair, but he has more time than I do. It's
completely crazy. I think, Am I the only sane person alive?

My 4-year-old has just started helping me out with cleaning, she
cleans her room and picks up all the toys in the living room. I am so
proud of her and tell her all the time. I swear, if it weren't for my
tiny little girl helping me I'd go crazy.

I don't know what made her start doing this in the first place, I wish
I had some advice for you, but I thought you should know that you
aren't the only one!

Rachel

> In my opinion and experience, the attitude one takes towards
> housecleaning and their children's participation in housecleaning (or
> lack thereof) can make all the difference in the world as to how things
> work out.
>
> Chris

This has proven true in our house. We have been de-schooling for 10
months and I am still learning to really fully totally let go of my
expectations of others to help out. It's a real shift in perspective
from "can't you see what I do for you and don't you feel guilty and
want to help" to me just doing because I chose to do things that help
everyone in the house feel comfortable and loved. Until this list I
didn't know that it was possible to chose to do things out of love.

I did make a chore chart but it works totally different than any chore
chart I am aware of. It has pictures of the things to be done on index
cards with a happy face on one side and a sad face on the other, like
the dogs food and water bowl empty with a sad face and on the other
side is the bowls full and a smiley face, same with dishes and laundry
etc.. The concept is that the animals are happier and cared for when
these things are done, as are the people. I made it for myself because
I get so side tracked just walking to another room that I need lots of
visual reminders. If someone feels like doing something they just flip
over the card. No one *has* to do any of the chores (except me caring
for the animals).It also has eliminated the most asked question in the
house of "did you feed the...fill in the blank?"

My standards have also changed. Before unschooling I considered
cleaning the kitchen as all of the kitchen spic and span and wouldn't
do it till I could *do it right*. Now if there is enough room on the
counter to chop up stuff for dinner and the sink is empty enough to
wash the dirty pot to cook the chopped up stuff in I consider that a
successful kitchen day. What about the plates and forks you ask?? Well
those are washed while the chopped up stuff is cooking.

My house is hardly clean and definatly not picked up but it does
function most of the time on the basic level of meeting the needs of
those who live in it and everyone is a lot happier.

Peace and Joy,
Rachel

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], Nittany Lion
<dsweeney@...> wrote:
>
My dad would wake us up at
> 8:00 AM on Saturdays to do chores. I hated it, I hated just being
woken up
> and doing the chores even more.



lol- oh the memories- we had sat cleaning day too and I hated it- we
cleaned all day and could do nothing fun until the house was
spotless-- I think it may be why I mostly avoid cleaning on the
weekends--

Cleaning should be something you CHOOSE to do when you want to- or
whoever is bothered by the mess the most will usually clean it up

my teenager (14) who was not raised unschoolish but had chores which
he hated- did clean the bathroom toilet and mirror because
he "wanted" to and admitted that he "would" clean stuff if he did
not have too.

I just keep telling myself that it is all a choice and I choose it
and so does everyone eles.

my girls 4.5 and 3 keep getting candy out of the halloween party
bucket and it was getting me irratated- so I got a big bowl for the
party candy and a slightly smaller bowl for the eating candy and we
split it up. Now they have been eating candy and candy and candy and
just when I wanted to scream "eat some food" the little one is
holding still with chocolate milk- I am left with an assortment of
tasted candy all over my keyboard because she did not like them.

After they eat so much candy they open the fridge and say "I need
some food"

I am thinking by the time halloween gets here they will be all
candied out from eating it all this week. Ahhhh we are going to have
candy forever

Nittany Lion

Chris,

> In the last year or
> so I can now ask (always open-ended)

What do you mean by "open-ended" when you ask for help?

Dawn

----- Original Message -----
From: "liberatedlrning" <liberatedlearning@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: the feminist in me


> Delurking for this one,
>
> Deb wrote pretty much what I was thinking. When we transitioned to
> RUing the chore issue took a little longer to settle in my mind than the
> academics shift .
>
> What helped me was looking closely at and changing on my own attitude
> towards housework. I decided that I needed to own my own standards.
> They were MY standards and I needed to take responsibility for them, not
> hoist them onto my family. I stopped expecting. I stopped expecting my
> kids to have my same standards. I stopped expecting them to live up to
> my standards. Letting go of expectations was the key to my shift in
> attitude.
>
> Looking back on it I think that there had to be a period of absolutely
> no expectations or even requests for help - a de-choring if you will -
> before my kids believed that any housework they did would be of their
> own free will.
>
> I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly. For me, I needed to release
> all expectations and hopes that my kids would voluntarily pitch-in with
> housework. I needed to do it cheerfully myself and let all resentment
> evaporate. During that time I routinely and intentionally swept through
> the house, including their bedrooms, and picked-up dirty dishes, took
> out their trash, hauled out their dirty laundry etc. with a spirit of
> generosity and love for the awesome people I'd chosen to bring into this
> world.
>
> It took some time but eventually my kids started to offer assistance or
> do little things here and there without my asking. In the last year or
> so I can now ask (always open-ended) for help and they usually oblige my
> requests. I am careful not to abuse their generosity because I know that
> my standards of clean are beyond theirs. Cleaning up can quickly go from
> mutually satisfying to trying to satisfy mom if I'm not careful.
>
> I try to always be respectful of their time and plans or activities and
> let them know that if they are busy and don't want to break away, that
> the task can either wait or I'll get to it soon enough.
>
> My 16yo routinely takes the trash and recycling out each week. His
> father will sometimes remind him, "Remember, you HAVE to take the trash
> out tonight," and I usually insert, "if you're not busy or you don't
> mind." Sometimes I take the trash out, just 'cause I think of it or I
> know he is busy. DS also voluntarily does loads of laundry, loads and
> unloads the dishwasher, cleans his room and mows the lawn when it needs
> to be mowed (we pay him to do this but rarely need to ask him to do it.)
>
> My 9yo daughter likes best to help out by surprising me with cleaning
> her bedroom or the living room. These surprises usually entail
> instructions to me like, "DON'T come in here until I say it's okay!" She
> really loves the feeling of a surprise gift of cleaning. I often pick
> up her room while I'm hanging out with her, listening to her read to me
> or just chatting. She doesn't even notice I'm doing it at the time but
> afterwards she notices how clean her room is and she thanks me!
>
> When we're cleaning for guests my kids happily work off of my own list
> and will even continued to cross off tasks while I'm out running
> errands. There are times when they happily vaccuum, dust, mop etc. too
>
> In my opinion and experience, the attitude one takes towards
> housecleaning and their children's participation in housecleaning (or
> lack thereof) can make all the difference in the world as to how things
> work out.
>
> Chris
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/iaunschoolers>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iaunschoolers> Radically Unschooling in
> Iowa <http://groups.yahoo.com/iaunschoolers>
> Learning in the Unzone <http://www.zamunzo.blogspot.com>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Debra Rossing"
> <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>>
>> Sounds more like you resent their freedom because you feel burdened by
>> the housework. Maybe don't "let it go" so long - it sounds as if
> you're
>> waiting and waiting (picture folded arms and tapping foot) until they
>> "realize" they "should" do something and it gets more and more out of
>> hand until finally you go ahead and "give in" and take care of it. How
>> about just doing what you see when you see it - a little here and
> there,
>> 15 minutes in the kitchen then go do something else - watch TV, read,
>> knit, whatever - then 15 minutes in the living room and so on - rather
>> than waiting to see IF they are going to "finally take responsibility
>> for their own messes". As others said, maybe it's a change of those
> old
>> tapes in your head that are still playing and seeing everything you do
>> (or don't do) as YOUR choice. You can choose when and how and all to
> do
>> something. You can choose to resent them not helping or choose to ask
>> for assistance. The key to asking for assistance is making it a bit
> open
>> ended - that is, if you ask for the socks to be picked up off the
> living
>> room floor, do it with the expectation that it will get done
> *sometime*,
>> but not *necessarily* the very minute you ask. I've found it comes out
>> way better if I ask DS (9 yrs) "Hey, can you get the shoes rounded up
> at
>> the next commercial break?" (or when you finish this level or when
>> you've finished assembling that k'nex invention...) rather than
> stating
>> and/or expecting him to stop what he's doing *immediately* to do what
>> I've asked.
>>
>> Deb
>>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Heather

I'm not Chris, but what I think she means by "open-ended" is that when she
asks for help, she is generally ASKING so the kids have a real choice. They
can help or NOT help. Instead of what conventional parents do - they say
they ASK their kids for help. But then get mad if the kid says NO. Which
means it wasn't really a request for help in the first place. It was just
another DEMAND disguised as a request...

heather


On 10/27/07, Nittany Lion <dsweeney@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> > In the last year or
> > so I can now ask (always open-ended)
>
> What do you mean by "open-ended" when you ask for help?
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

MrsStranahan

A couple of days ago my 8 yr old daughter came to me and said she wanted to
do a project. We were digging through our craft dresser and I kept offering
up ideas like painting or playing with the new moon sand. She didn't want to
do anything I suggested and had been picking out dust balls from the corners
of the drawers while we talked. I asked if she wanted to dust and her face
lit up as she ran out of the room to get an apron she likes to wear.

So her project was dusting. I gave her the Swiffer dusters and let her have
at it. I didn't tell her where to dust or how to dust and she did an awesome
job. She dusted the craft dresser, she dusted the TV and fan and then
started in on a bookcase and that turned into rearranging all the shelves.
Right now there are stacks of books on the floor waiting to be organized and
put away. I will probably do that part but she'll be right there doing it
too, if she wants. I'm not going to tell her that she started it so she
needs to finish it or any other dumb thing kids get told. That would suck
away her joy.

If I'd been stomping around like a martyr about the housework and if I had
decided having a dusty house was not acceptable she wouldn't have had the
opportunity to pick the project of dusting. She got a lot of joy and
satisfaction out of her project, which in turn gave me a lot of joy and
satisfaction.

I think my point is .. when people are not being yelled at or shamed into
helping with housework it turns into just another thing to do that is a
pleasant way to pass the time. My daughters dusting looked a lot like her
painting; joyfull. I hope it always stays that way. When my mother sees dust
her reaction is "Oh shit, I have to dust." When I see dust my reaction is
"Ok it's dusty. It can be dusty. It's fine." My daughter's reaction is "Woo
Hoo!! Let's dust!"

This unschooling stuff really does work and even if you don't "get it" (for
a very long time I didn't) you can fake it and even that works.

Lauren
(Steven 21, Shane 15, Olivia 8, Jack 6)




On 10/27/07, Heather <heather@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not Chris, but what I think she means by "open-ended" is that when
> she
> asks for help, she is generally ASKING so the kids have a real choice.
> They
> can help or NOT help. Instead of what conventional parents do - they say
> they ASK their kids for help. But then get mad if the kid says NO. Which
> means it wasn't really a request for help in the first place. It was just
> another DEMAND disguised as a request...
>
> heather
>
> On 10/27/07, Nittany Lion <dsweeney@... <dsweeney%40dejazzd.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > > In the last year or
> > > so I can now ask (always open-ended)
> >
> > What do you mean by "open-ended" when you ask for help?
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nittany Lion

> This unschooling stuff really does work and even if you don't "get it"
> (for
> a very long time I didn't) you can fake it and even that works.

My problem isn't that I don't get it, I do get it. I know what I should do,
its just that wrt to cleaning I don't do. After reading through everyone's
posts, which I found a bit overwhelming, but I think it showed me how
uptight I am about cleaning - as if my time cleaning is more important, more
valuable than anyones elses time messing up and doing something else than
clean up.

Thank you all for your thoughtfullness.

Dawn - who really, really needs to de-chore and have a glass of wine, or
maybe even the whole bottle, so I'm not so uptight . . .


----- Original Message -----
From: "MrsStranahan" <mrsstranahan@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: the feminist in me


>A couple of days ago my 8 yr old daughter came to me and said she wanted to
> do a project. We were digging through our craft dresser and I kept
> offering
> up ideas like painting or playing with the new moon sand. She didn't want
> to
> do anything I suggested and had been picking out dust balls from the
> corners
> of the drawers while we talked. I asked if she wanted to dust and her face
> lit up as she ran out of the room to get an apron she likes to wear.
>
> So her project was dusting. I gave her the Swiffer dusters and let her
> have
> at it. I didn't tell her where to dust or how to dust and she did an
> awesome
> job. She dusted the craft dresser, she dusted the TV and fan and then
> started in on a bookcase and that turned into rearranging all the shelves.
> Right now there are stacks of books on the floor waiting to be organized
> and
> put away. I will probably do that part but she'll be right there doing it
> too, if she wants. I'm not going to tell her that she started it so she
> needs to finish it or any other dumb thing kids get told. That would suck
> away her joy.
>
> If I'd been stomping around like a martyr about the housework and if I had
> decided having a dusty house was not acceptable she wouldn't have had the
> opportunity to pick the project of dusting. She got a lot of joy and
> satisfaction out of her project, which in turn gave me a lot of joy and
> satisfaction.
>
> I think my point is .. when people are not being yelled at or shamed into
> helping with housework it turns into just another thing to do that is a
> pleasant way to pass the time. My daughters dusting looked a lot like her
> painting; joyfull. I hope it always stays that way. When my mother sees
> dust
> her reaction is "Oh shit, I have to dust." When I see dust my reaction is
> "Ok it's dusty. It can be dusty. It's fine." My daughter's reaction is
> "Woo
> Hoo!! Let's dust!"
>
> This unschooling stuff really does work and even if you don't "get it"
> (for
> a very long time I didn't) you can fake it and even that works.
>
> Lauren
> (Steven 21, Shane 15, Olivia 8, Jack 6)
>
>
>
>
> On 10/27/07, Heather <heather@...> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not Chris, but what I think she means by "open-ended" is that when
>> she
>> asks for help, she is generally ASKING so the kids have a real choice.
>> They
>> can help or NOT help. Instead of what conventional parents do - they say
>> they ASK their kids for help. But then get mad if the kid says NO. Which
>> means it wasn't really a request for help in the first place. It was just
>> another DEMAND disguised as a request...
>>
>> heather
>>
>> On 10/27/07, Nittany Lion <dsweeney@... <dsweeney%40dejazzd.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Chris,
>> >
>> > > In the last year or
>> > > so I can now ask (always open-ended)
>> >
>> > What do you mean by "open-ended" when you ask for help?
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

liberatedlrning

Yes, Chris here. What Heather wrote is exactly what I meant. I ask
without any expectation that they'll say yes and if they say no, it's no
skin off my back. I give them unconditional love all the time. They do
not need to worry that if they opt to not help me that it'll affect my
mood or attitude toward them. Once they realized that requests for help
were just that, requests and not manipulations, they helped more often
and with positive attitudes.

Chris
Learning in the Unzone <http://www.zamunzo.blogspot.com>

--- In [email protected], Heather <heather@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not Chris, but what I think she means by "open-ended" is that when
she
> asks for help, she is generally ASKING so the kids have a real choice.
They
> can help or NOT help. Instead of what conventional parents do - they
say
> they ASK their kids for help. But then get mad if the kid says NO.
Which
> means it wasn't really a request for help in the first place. It was
just
> another DEMAND disguised as a request...
>
> heather
>
>
> On 10/27/07, Nittany Lion dsweeney@... wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > > In the last year or
> > > so I can now ask (always open-ended)
> >
> > What do you mean by "open-ended" when you ask for help?
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jamie Murray

My son makes huge messes and even gets into my stuff. I wish there was a way to get him to pick up after himself and to stay out of stuff that don't belong to him. I can't physically pick up after him. I end up asking my sister for help when it gets bad. But she won't be living close anymore, so something else needs to be done. Any suggestions? My problem is I can't get on the floor or bend over to pick stuff up. Even standing too long causes lots of pain and discomfort. I am disabled.

Thanks,
Jamie

----- Original Message -----
From: MrsStranahan
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: the feminist in me


A couple of days ago my 8 yr old daughter came to me and said she wanted to
do a project. We were digging through our craft dresser and I kept offering
up ideas like painting or playing with the new moon sand. She didn't want to
do anything I suggested and had been picking out dust balls from the corners
of the drawers while we talked. I asked if she wanted to dust and her face
lit up as she ran out of the room to get an apron she likes to wear.

So her project was dusting. I gave her the Swiffer dusters and let her have
at it. I didn't tell her where to dust or how to dust and she did an awesome
job. She dusted the craft dresser, she dusted the TV and fan and then
started in on a bookcase and that turned into rearranging all the shelves.
Right now there are stacks of books on the floor waiting to be organized and
put away. I will probably do that part but she'll be right there doing it
too, if she wants. I'm not going to tell her that she started it so she
needs to finish it or any other dumb thing kids get told. That would suck
away her joy.

If I'd been stomping around like a martyr about the housework and if I had
decided having a dusty house was not acceptable she wouldn't have had the
opportunity to pick the project of dusting. She got a lot of joy and
satisfaction out of her project, which in turn gave me a lot of joy and
satisfaction.

I think my point is .. when people are not being yelled at or shamed into
helping with housework it turns into just another thing to do that is a
pleasant way to pass the time. My daughters dusting looked a lot like her
painting; joyfull. I hope it always stays that way. When my mother sees dust
her reaction is "Oh shit, I have to dust." When I see dust my reaction is
"Ok it's dusty. It can be dusty. It's fine." My daughter's reaction is "Woo
Hoo!! Let's dust!"

This unschooling stuff really does work and even if you don't "get it" (for
a very long time I didn't) you can fake it and even that works.

Lauren
(Steven 21, Shane 15, Olivia 8, Jack 6)

On 10/27/07, Heather <heather@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not Chris, but what I think she means by "open-ended" is that when
> she
> asks for help, she is generally ASKING so the kids have a real choice.
> They
> can help or NOT help. Instead of what conventional parents do - they say
> they ASK their kids for help. But then get mad if the kid says NO. Which
> means it wasn't really a request for help in the first place. It was just
> another DEMAND disguised as a request...
>
> heather
>
> On 10/27/07, Nittany Lion <dsweeney@... <dsweeney%40dejazzd.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > > In the last year or
> > > so I can now ask (always open-ended)
> >
> > What do you mean by "open-ended" when you ask for help?
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

trektheory

Reminds me of when my son was young -- maybe 3 or so. We had a
playgroup that rotated houses. One little girl was consistent when
she came to our house -- she would whine, "What can I do?" I would
point out that there was a room full of toys (we had them in the
living room) and she was free to pick out something to play with.
"But what can I dooooo?" (Her mom thought it was a "cute" little
game...) I refused to play that game, and would offer her a dust
cloth and she could dust. "I don't waaaant to." But my son would
always pipe up, "I do!" So, I would still have to get out a dust cloth.

Linda
--- In [email protected], MrsStranahan
<mrsstranahan@...> wrote:
>
> A couple of days ago my 8 yr old daughter came to me and said she
wanted to
> do a project. We were digging through our craft dresser and I kept
offering
> up ideas like painting or playing with the new moon sand. She didn't
want to
> do anything I suggested and had been picking out dust balls from the
corners
> of the drawers while we talked. I asked if she wanted to dust and
her face
> lit up as she ran out of the room to get an apron she likes to wear.
>
> So her project was dusting. I gave her the Swiffer dusters and let
her have
> at it. I didn't tell her where to dust or how to dust and she did an
awesome
> job. She dusted the craft dresser, she dusted the TV and fan and then
> started in on a bookcase and that turned into rearranging all the
shelves.
> Right now there are stacks of books on the floor waiting to be
organized and
> put away. I will probably do that part but she'll be right there
doing it
> too, if she wants. I'm not going to tell her that she started it so she
> needs to finish it or any other dumb thing kids get told. That would
suck
> away her joy.
>
> If I'd been stomping around like a martyr about the housework and if
I had
> decided having a dusty house was not acceptable she wouldn't have
had the
> opportunity to pick the project of dusting. She got a lot of joy and
> satisfaction out of her project, which in turn gave me a lot of joy and
> satisfaction.
>
> I think my point is .. when people are not being yelled at or shamed
into
> helping with housework it turns into just another thing to do that is a
> pleasant way to pass the time. My daughters dusting looked a lot
like her
> painting; joyfull. I hope it always stays that way. When my mother
sees dust
> her reaction is "Oh shit, I have to dust." When I see dust my
reaction is
> "Ok it's dusty. It can be dusty. It's fine." My daughter's reaction
is "Woo
> Hoo!! Let's dust!"
>
> This unschooling stuff really does work and even if you don't "get
it" (for
> a very long time I didn't) you can fake it and even that works.
>
> Lauren
> (Steven 21, Shane 15, Olivia 8, Jack 6)
>
>
>
>
> On 10/27/07, Heather <heather@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not Chris, but what I think she means by "open-ended" is
that when
> > she
> > asks for help, she is generally ASKING so the kids have a real choice.
> > They
> > can help or NOT help. Instead of what conventional parents do -
they say
> > they ASK their kids for help. But then get mad if the kid says NO.
Which
> > means it wasn't really a request for help in the first place. It
was just
> > another DEMAND disguised as a request...
> >
> > heather
> >
> > On 10/27/07, Nittany Lion <dsweeney@... <dsweeney%40dejazzd.com>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > > In the last year or
> > > > so I can now ask (always open-ended)
> > >
> > > What do you mean by "open-ended" when you ask for help?
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

guideforthree

I've been following this thread, and I think a lot of excellent
points have been made. I experiences this kind of resentment towards
my husband early in our marriage, but have since gotten over it.
We've evolved into a system of whoever it bothers the most takes care
of it (thereby making it a choice), and we've carried that over to
the kids (who of course don't even see the mess). I once read a
quote: "We're raising boys now. We can raise grass later". This
kind of sums up my cleaning philosophy. My house is sanitary, and
you won't break anything unless you walk into one of the kids' rooms,
but cleaning is not a top priority.

With that said, I want to reitterate how important it is to model for
your children. If cleaning looks important and fun, younger children
will get upset if you tell them they can't do it (One of my boys once
had a tantrum because I wouldn't let him help with the laundry -
lesson learned). You also need to model helping. This starts with
the adults in the house making a concious effort to be helpful
towards each other and towards the children. As with any learning,
it takes time to learn to be helpful, so don't expect instant
helpfulness.

My husband once provided an anology that helps clearify another
related point. He works, and I shop. Thus, he expects me to keep
milk in the fridge. If he looked in the fridge everyday and there
was no milk for a week, he could choose to get angry and resentful
about the lack of milk (and I would be clueless about this), or he
could choose to let me know that he would like me to get milk.
Obviously, asking me to buy milk would be more productive. Likewise,
asking the kids to help is much more productive than getting mad when
they don't do something they don't even know you want them to do.

Which brings me to my next point -- When you ask a yes or no
question, expect a yes or no answer (and accept it). Once you learn
how to do this, kids do what you ask out of love rather than out of
fear, and if they don't do it, they have a logical reason.

Also, when thinking about kids and cleaning, keep in mind that they
don't have the same planning skills as an adult. They look at a
messy room and have no idea how to accomplish the task of cleaning
the room. It is an overwhelming task, and they don't even know where
to begin, so they don't start. Rather than having children clean a
room, it is much more developmentally appropriate to start the job
and ask them to help you, and if you've done the work of positive
modeling and they know they really do have a choice, then most of the
time they will help. If they don't, they don't -- Keep in mind who
owns the problem (whoever is bothered by it).

Tina

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 27, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Jamie Murray wrote:

> I wish there was a way to get him to pick up after himself and to
> stay out of stuff that don't belong to him.

How could someone get you to do something that you saw as pointless?
How could they get you to do it repeatedly?

Really. Truly. Honestly. If there were a way to make children into
obedient convenience parents would have figured it out long ago and
there would be a single book out there that gave you the steps.

Unless you wish to sacrifice your relationship with him, there isn't
a way to make him.

If you become a person he'd love to help, when he's developmentally
able he will help you.

Treat clean up as something that you own, that's important to you and
invite him along to help. As long as you don't expect his help --
don't turn him into conscripted labor -- he's way more likely to help.

I think what would probably help most in your situation is to keep on
top of it. Treat it as something that *is* important to you, rather
than waiting until you can't stand it any longer and turning into an
emotional beast about it. (Not saying that you do, only projecting
that most of us have been there and done that!)

> I can't physically pick up after him. I end up asking my sister for
> help when it gets bad. But she won't be living close anymore, so
> something else needs to be done. Any suggestions?

How about asking your sister (and your son) for help in rethinking
the problem? How about ways to prevent him from getting into your
stuff? Cabinets that lock, for instance. If he's very young, just the
simple childproof locks might be enough.

If he plays with toys on the floor, if you can help him play on a big
plastic sheet, then it can be folded up and all the toys dumped into
a bin when he's done.

> My problem is I can't get on the floor or bend over to pick stuff
> up. Even standing too long causes lots of pain and discomfort. I am
> disabled.

How do other disabled people who have difficulties reaching things on
the floor handle it? There's a huge amount of brain power out there
working on these problems! Tap into it :-) It's so much easier for
people now that the internet reaches everywhere. Imagine what it was
like for people trying to get information when their only resource
was local people and local books.

I know I've seen those long grabber things for reaching things on
high shelves.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Nittany Lion <dsweeney@...>

I'm 100% unschooling when it comes to learning "academics" in its
variety of
forms in everyday life. The feminist in me struggles with aspects of
unschooling like chores. My mom was the type who did everything for my
dad
and my brother and I. As I got older I hated seeing her being treated
as a
traditional housewife, who kept the house and catered to everyone in
it,
simply bc she was a woman.

-=-=-

Feminism isn't about NOT cleaning the house because you're a woman.
It's about CHOICE. You can still be a feminist and care for your
family. The deal is that you're free to CHOOSE to make other choices.

Your mother may have *wanted* to be a mom! Her choice wasn't about
*you* or what you hated. It was about what *she* wanted for *herself*.

-=-=-=-=-=

I don't want my girls to think they will be
expected to clean and cook and do all the chores for their household
and I
don't want my son to expect that role from his wife should he decide to
marry.

-=-=-=-=-=-

And what if the girls decided that that was the role they wanted? To
have a family and care for it? What if your son married a woman who
*wanted* to stay home and cater to her family?

I would rather my sons marry women who would want to be with their
children. I would certainly hope my boys would choose women who would
rather be home with their kids than out making million dollar deals
while the kids were in school all day. (Unless the boys were the ones
at home with the children! <G>)

As an unschooling mom, I *do* need to be with my children. That's how
it works. I can certainly do other things (and I do a LOT of other
things) while I'm home caring for them and cleaning and such. But it's
what I *do*---care for them and clean the house.

-=-=-=-=-


For me personally, I don't have the energy, desire or time to clean up
after
everyone (I have 4 kids btw ages 8, 6, 4 and 17 months, so I am wiped
out
anyway!). I get resentful when I clean a room only to have it get
messed up
and left that way.

-=-=-=-=-

Then change your attitude. You have four under eight. You really
shouldn't *expect* it to be clean. You *should* expect it to be messed
up. That's the way it is with children. Children are messy. Understand
that. And lose the resentfulness. You're choosing to be resentful.
CHOOSE to be appreciative of what you have: four beautiful children who
are healthy and happy enough to be messy.

-=-=-=-=-

I'm fine with the mess, but not with cleaning it up if I
didn't make it.

-=-=-=-=-

And small children should *care*?

You have four small children. Who else is going to clean their messes?

You're saying that a femininst shouldn't have to, but that small
children *should*???

-=-=-=-=-

I don't expect anyone to pick up my dirty clothes, or my
mess in the kitchen after cooking, why should I be expected to do all
the
chores, especially their messes?

-=-=-=--=

Because you're the mom. You took on that role when you decided to have
children. It comes with the package---unless you can afford a maid
(might want to look for a feminist maid though---one that will work
outside the home <g>).

-=-=-=-=-=-

Shouldn't everyone chip in while in a
communal environment (as all houses are)?

-=-=-=-=

May the children leave if the communal laws don't suit them?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm not a neat freak, I don't
mind clutter or dirty bathrooms - I just resent it when I am expected
to do
all the chores over and over.

-=-=-=--

I still feel that way sometimes. It's as if there are always dishes to
be washed and clothes to be folded. It's a never-ending job.

Then I quickly kick myself in the butt and remember that I'm so happy
to have dishes to wash and a beautiful house to care for and wonderful
children that I can still hug.

I accept the responsibility of having a nice house (I could be living
in a car) and having dishes to wash (I could be eating at a homeless
shelter) and having fresh, clean clothes to fold (I could be down to my
last set of clothes and can't wash them because I'd be standing naked
at the laundromat---ugh!). I still have my children to pick up after
(They are healthy and happy. But I still think of Jacob and Sam and
Hannah (all dead) every day when I need to remember to appreciatae what
I have right NOW, right HERE!), so I'm happy to pick up after them.

They'll be gone soon anyway---they grow up so fast. My older son is 19
and in Charleston this week, visiting the girlfriend. I miss him. I
HATE when he's gone. Now that he's gone so much, I treasure the moments
we DO have together.

You can choose to be resentful or appreciative. I promise you that you
will be happier if you choose appreciation over resentfulness.

-=-=-=-===-

I once threw away 4 or 5 board games bc they
were left out for days, pieces all over the place - I didn't want to
burden
the kids with cleaning . . . but got pissed and threw them out bc (as I
told
them) I am not their servant.

Your thought or opinions?

-=-=-====

I hope your children don't treat you as thoughlessly and with such
disrepect if/when you are ever under their care.

And hey---big news! You ARE their servant! They are incapable of caring
for themselves, so it falls upon YOU, their mother. The twist is that
you are the servant with the POWER. Scary scenario, huh? Someone who
cares for their every need, but who can cut OFF all service and
happiness?

It really will pay off if you show how *important* and *fulfilling* and
*joyful* all that cleaning and caring for others can be. Show them what
an HONOR it is to serve. That's a "lesson" they will keep for always.
Model it. BE the example you want to see.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org





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Laurie Wolfrum

Wow!!! I just read your post aloud to my husband
Kelly...and it almost brought me to tears!! I am
printing it out and posting it in my kitchen. Thanks
for the powerful reminders! I needed a powerful
reminder myself!!! Laurie Wolfrum

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