Intro and boundaries w/Children
jannabethryan
Hi All,
I can't remember if I posted an intro on this list! I'm on so many
lists now. I can't keep up! We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
I haven't met 1 unschooler in this area so it was refreshing to be
at the Live & Learn this year. We found out about this list from
Gail when we were at the Live and Learn.
How do unschoolers set boundaries or limits without using threats
("take this away or that away...if you don't")? When the child is
doing something that is not okay (like, when she gets angry she will
try to hit me sometimes). This is what we grew up with (punitive and
threats) and it feels wrong, but unsure of what to replace it with.
My daughter is 5 and very much her own person and strong willed. I'm
kind of muddling through figuring out how to approach
her "differently" - is there a general gentle approach? What does
it look like?
Janna Beth Ryan
MA, Reiki Master
Kitty Hawk, NC
Janna (37), Patrick (47), Leia (5), Elle (1.5), Jenna (11)
I can't remember if I posted an intro on this list! I'm on so many
lists now. I can't keep up! We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
I haven't met 1 unschooler in this area so it was refreshing to be
at the Live & Learn this year. We found out about this list from
Gail when we were at the Live and Learn.
How do unschoolers set boundaries or limits without using threats
("take this away or that away...if you don't")? When the child is
doing something that is not okay (like, when she gets angry she will
try to hit me sometimes). This is what we grew up with (punitive and
threats) and it feels wrong, but unsure of what to replace it with.
My daughter is 5 and very much her own person and strong willed. I'm
kind of muddling through figuring out how to approach
her "differently" - is there a general gentle approach? What does
it look like?
Janna Beth Ryan
MA, Reiki Master
Kitty Hawk, NC
Janna (37), Patrick (47), Leia (5), Elle (1.5), Jenna (11)
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/2007 8:38:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jannabethryan@... writes:
I can't remember if I posted an intro on this list! I'm on so many
lists now. I can't keep up! We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
I haven't met 1 unschooler in this area so it was refreshing to be
at the Live & Learn this year. We found out about this list from
Gail when we were at the Live and Learn.
___
Hi Janna! ! I'm so glad you posted and just loved meeting you at L & L.
(Janna was wearing the coolest shirt at the conference that said something
like.."I make milk. What's your Super Power?"
I know you'll get some great responses to your questions here. I have to
run out this morning but will check back in later and post. Just wanted to say
I'm so glad you're here.
Gail
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jannabethryan@... writes:
I can't remember if I posted an intro on this list! I'm on so many
lists now. I can't keep up! We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
I haven't met 1 unschooler in this area so it was refreshing to be
at the Live & Learn this year. We found out about this list from
Gail when we were at the Live and Learn.
___
Hi Janna! ! I'm so glad you posted and just loved meeting you at L & L.
(Janna was wearing the coolest shirt at the conference that said something
like.."I make milk. What's your Super Power?"
I know you'll get some great responses to your questions here. I have to
run out this morning but will check back in later and post. Just wanted to say
I'm so glad you're here.
Gail
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amanda Horein
Hi Janna!
I am pretty new to the list too and my youngest has "anger issues" although
I don't really think she has a problem or anything, it just helps to use
those words to describe what I see.
Anyway, something that REALLY helped my dd's anger was taking away ALL red
dye (and yellow too, but mostly red) from her system. It has helped more
than I can even describe in words.
Also, I am not sure this was the RIGHT thing to do, but it also seemed to
help. Lilly would first direct her anger to her sister or to the girl I
babysit so I told her that if she needed to hit someone, to hit me. She
never did hit me (or if she did it was only once) and the hitting others
seemed to stop as well. I also suggested (at the same time I told her to
direct her anger at me if she needed to) that she might hit other things
such as beds, couches, pillow, blankets, etc. I have "caught" her hitting
these things and biting blankets.
I hope that helps you come up with some ideas and I am sure so many others
will have valuable advice as well.
--
Roger, Amanda, Marti and Lilly
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
1/2 Price Slide shows make GREAT Christmas Presents!
Example Slide shows at
http://server3.inalbum.com/ia30/show/choose2bgr8/
See my pictures at
http://www.HopesCreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com/gallery/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am pretty new to the list too and my youngest has "anger issues" although
I don't really think she has a problem or anything, it just helps to use
those words to describe what I see.
Anyway, something that REALLY helped my dd's anger was taking away ALL red
dye (and yellow too, but mostly red) from her system. It has helped more
than I can even describe in words.
Also, I am not sure this was the RIGHT thing to do, but it also seemed to
help. Lilly would first direct her anger to her sister or to the girl I
babysit so I told her that if she needed to hit someone, to hit me. She
never did hit me (or if she did it was only once) and the hitting others
seemed to stop as well. I also suggested (at the same time I told her to
direct her anger at me if she needed to) that she might hit other things
such as beds, couches, pillow, blankets, etc. I have "caught" her hitting
these things and biting blankets.
I hope that helps you come up with some ideas and I am sure so many others
will have valuable advice as well.
--
Roger, Amanda, Marti and Lilly
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
1/2 Price Slide shows make GREAT Christmas Presents!
Example Slide shows at
http://server3.inalbum.com/ia30/show/choose2bgr8/
See my pictures at
http://www.HopesCreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com/gallery/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here. ~~
Have you joined the NC Unschoolers list? My friend Alice lives in
Havelock on the coast, but they'll be moving out here eventually (they
already have a house in Asheville but won't move over all the way for
a while).
I know there aren't many unschoolers out that way, she's been
frustrated too. Lots of unschoolers out this way in the
Asheville/Eastern TN area.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here. ~~
Have you joined the NC Unschoolers list? My friend Alice lives in
Havelock on the coast, but they'll be moving out here eventually (they
already have a house in Asheville but won't move over all the way for
a while).
I know there aren't many unschoolers out that way, she's been
frustrated too. Lots of unschoolers out this way in the
Asheville/Eastern TN area.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Hi Janna! Just wanted to say hi to you and Patrick. We met you all at L & L.
Hope to see you again next year ( We hope to make it again).
And if you guys are over this way you have to spend a few days here at our place in Minnesota!
Alex, Brian ,MD ( 5 yo) and Gigi ( 21 months)
jannabethryan <jannabethryan@...> wrote:
Hi All,
I can't remember if I posted an intro on this list! I'm on so many
lists now. I can't keep up! We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
I haven't met 1 unschooler in this area so it was refreshing to be
at the Live & Learn this year. We found out about this list from
Gail when we were at the Live and Learn.
How do unschoolers set boundaries or limits without using threats
("take this away or that away...if you don't")? When the child is
doing something that is not okay (like, when she gets angry she will
try to hit me sometimes). This is what we grew up with (punitive and
threats) and it feels wrong, but unsure of what to replace it with.
My daughter is 5 and very much her own person and strong willed. I'm
kind of muddling through figuring out how to approach
her "differently" - is there a general gentle approach? What does
it look like?
Janna Beth Ryan
MA, Reiki Master
Kitty Hawk, NC
Janna (37), Patrick (47), Leia (5), Elle (1.5), Jenna (11)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hope to see you again next year ( We hope to make it again).
And if you guys are over this way you have to spend a few days here at our place in Minnesota!
Alex, Brian ,MD ( 5 yo) and Gigi ( 21 months)
jannabethryan <jannabethryan@...> wrote:
Hi All,
I can't remember if I posted an intro on this list! I'm on so many
lists now. I can't keep up! We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
I haven't met 1 unschooler in this area so it was refreshing to be
at the Live & Learn this year. We found out about this list from
Gail when we were at the Live and Learn.
How do unschoolers set boundaries or limits without using threats
("take this away or that away...if you don't")? When the child is
doing something that is not okay (like, when she gets angry she will
try to hit me sometimes). This is what we grew up with (punitive and
threats) and it feels wrong, but unsure of what to replace it with.
My daughter is 5 and very much her own person and strong willed. I'm
kind of muddling through figuring out how to approach
her "differently" - is there a general gentle approach? What does
it look like?
Janna Beth Ryan
MA, Reiki Master
Kitty Hawk, NC
Janna (37), Patrick (47), Leia (5), Elle (1.5), Jenna (11)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
--- In [email protected], "jannabethryan"
<jannabethryan@...> wrote:
for turning you onto this list...i've been talking this list up for
years at our NY group - but thats ok if you didn't get it then...the
important thing is that you're here now <g>. Glad you got the
message wherever it came from.**
for her feelings. Hitting or anger is an expression of something.
And for you to acknowledge how frustrated your daughter is in the
moment and approach her with compassion for her frustration instead
of judgment of her behaviour may make all the difference in your
acceptance of her and your ability to help navigate the moment
without attempting to control with threats, coercive abitrary
boundaries, or punitive measures - as we are so conditioned to
believe that that is the way to control another person smaller than
oneself.
The truth is as soon as you let go of the idea that you can control
another person you can approach the situation in a whole other way.
There's nothing wrong with simply saying to someone (anyone) i don't
like to be hit or please don't yell at me. And in some instances
with some kids that is enough information for them to alter their
form of communication or behavior in the moment. But maybe not for
your 5 year old who is very much in her moment of frustration or
anger or whatever pain she is feeling that perciptitates behaviour
that is making *you* uncomfortable. Which brings me to another point
to look at - your comfort level with your daughters expression of her
will. I know Leia and her will is beautiful to behold. Can you
shift your internal response from one of discomfort to one of
admiration that she is one who can clearly express herself with
directness and strength?***
This is what we grew up with (punitive and
Yes there is a different way and it looks like extreme expression of
love and acceptance. And to an outsider it won't look like you are
attempting to control your daughter - because you are not attempting
to control your daughter. You will be responding to her with
compassion and perhaps shifting the enviroment or protecting her from
external judgements.
It will look like you don't care what other people around you think
because you are not concerned with being "gentle" per se but rather
it will look like you are secure in your response to your daughter.
It will look like you know what you are doing and *your* behavior
will not be punishing, complaining, blaming, threatening, nagging,
criticizing, and bribing.
Your behavior will be between you and your daughter - an expression
of trust, of your respecting her expression of her moment. In that
moment that your daughter is expressing her strong will in a way that
*you* may think is not OK, is for her a very real, very ok, very
appropriate expression of her experience of that very moment. A 5
year old lives in the moment - our unschooled kids are allowed to be
in the moment. And we can not be afriad of their moments or
judgemental of their expressions of their moments.
Gosh - i feel like i must sound so very didactic. But i know your
daughter Leia and i've never witnessed her doing anything that is not
*OK* or appropriate to her experience. I *have* witnessed *your*
discomfort with her full expression of her moment. Oh - dear Janna -
now i hope that i am not coming across to critical of you - but that
you can hear what i am saying. I hope that i know you well enough
that i trust you have the ability to look at yourself in this
situation.
When i am uncomfortable with anything either of my daughters do, it
is time to look at myself. Because the issue always seems to lie
within myself and where i am needing to stretch myself.
We cannot control another person - but we can choose to change our
response to them.
Wishing you well - always.
Lisa Heyman
<jannabethryan@...> wrote:
>**So Janna - i won't take it personally that you give Gail the credit
> Hi All,
> I can't remember if I posted an intro on this list! I'm on so many
> lists now. I can't keep up! We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from
> New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
> I haven't met 1 unschooler in this area so it was refreshing to be
> at the Live & Learn this year. We found out about this list from
> Gail when we were at the Live and Learn.
for turning you onto this list...i've been talking this list up for
years at our NY group - but thats ok if you didn't get it then...the
important thing is that you're here now <g>. Glad you got the
message wherever it came from.**
>will
> How do unschoolers set boundaries or limits without using threats
> ("take this away or that away...if you don't")? When the child is
> doing something that is not okay (like, when she gets angry she
> try to hit me sometimes).***The first thing that comes to mind is not to make your child wrong
for her feelings. Hitting or anger is an expression of something.
And for you to acknowledge how frustrated your daughter is in the
moment and approach her with compassion for her frustration instead
of judgment of her behaviour may make all the difference in your
acceptance of her and your ability to help navigate the moment
without attempting to control with threats, coercive abitrary
boundaries, or punitive measures - as we are so conditioned to
believe that that is the way to control another person smaller than
oneself.
The truth is as soon as you let go of the idea that you can control
another person you can approach the situation in a whole other way.
There's nothing wrong with simply saying to someone (anyone) i don't
like to be hit or please don't yell at me. And in some instances
with some kids that is enough information for them to alter their
form of communication or behavior in the moment. But maybe not for
your 5 year old who is very much in her moment of frustration or
anger or whatever pain she is feeling that perciptitates behaviour
that is making *you* uncomfortable. Which brings me to another point
to look at - your comfort level with your daughters expression of her
will. I know Leia and her will is beautiful to behold. Can you
shift your internal response from one of discomfort to one of
admiration that she is one who can clearly express herself with
directness and strength?***
This is what we grew up with (punitive and
> threats) and it feels wrong, but unsure of what to replace itwith.
> My daughter is 5 and very much her own person and strong willed.I'm
> kind of muddling through figuring out how to approach***Yes there is a different way - it looks like extreme patience.
> her "differently" - is there a general gentle approach? What does
> it look like?
Yes there is a different way and it looks like extreme expression of
love and acceptance. And to an outsider it won't look like you are
attempting to control your daughter - because you are not attempting
to control your daughter. You will be responding to her with
compassion and perhaps shifting the enviroment or protecting her from
external judgements.
It will look like you don't care what other people around you think
because you are not concerned with being "gentle" per se but rather
it will look like you are secure in your response to your daughter.
It will look like you know what you are doing and *your* behavior
will not be punishing, complaining, blaming, threatening, nagging,
criticizing, and bribing.
Your behavior will be between you and your daughter - an expression
of trust, of your respecting her expression of her moment. In that
moment that your daughter is expressing her strong will in a way that
*you* may think is not OK, is for her a very real, very ok, very
appropriate expression of her experience of that very moment. A 5
year old lives in the moment - our unschooled kids are allowed to be
in the moment. And we can not be afriad of their moments or
judgemental of their expressions of their moments.
Gosh - i feel like i must sound so very didactic. But i know your
daughter Leia and i've never witnessed her doing anything that is not
*OK* or appropriate to her experience. I *have* witnessed *your*
discomfort with her full expression of her moment. Oh - dear Janna -
now i hope that i am not coming across to critical of you - but that
you can hear what i am saying. I hope that i know you well enough
that i trust you have the ability to look at yourself in this
situation.
When i am uncomfortable with anything either of my daughters do, it
is time to look at myself. Because the issue always seems to lie
within myself and where i am needing to stretch myself.
We cannot control another person - but we can choose to change our
response to them.
Wishing you well - always.
Lisa Heyman
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 24, 2007, at 7:12 AM, jannabethryan wrote:
1) You know better and are deliberately, maliciously choosing to do
wrong and I need to punish that evil out of you.
2) You've been told the right way and are just not paying attention.
You need to be punished so you'll listen to me.
Assume she's doing the best she can with her knowledge, skills and
level of development. What she needs is your *help* to do better. She
may need more help and patience than you believe she needs, but how
many times in your life have you told yourself you only need one
cookie and then reached for another (or whatever your personal
weakness is)? And you've had how many years on this planet?
Knowing not to do something isn't the same as being able to not do it
or to do something else instead. She gets a build up of anger and she
really doesn't know what to do to make it feel better. And what
you're giving her is a block to feeling better. Help her find
something better.
*But*, while we can't make life perfectly not frustrating for kids
(nor should we try), a lot of mindful parenting is about being aware
of our kids and helping them *before* they get to the point of break
down. Rather than being their life director, be their partner,
helping them get what they want. (Your needs get worked in there too,
but they need to see you putting their needs as a top priority before
they can accept that you're trying to help them not thwart them.)
different ideas from you and not afraid to stand up for them (which
is perfectly admirable in adults but squashed in children because it
makes them inconvenient) you might find help in:
Raising Your Spirited Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060923288?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=0060923288&adid=0GCCX5EQXQZQ45WAQV7A&
The Explosive Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/006077939X?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=006077939X&adid=015A3QP0GJ06TXY0KKFX&
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> How do unschoolers set boundaries or limits without using threatsPunishment says to the child either:
> ("take this away or that away...if you don't")? When the child is
> doing something that is not okay (like, when she gets angry she will
> try to hit me sometimes).
1) You know better and are deliberately, maliciously choosing to do
wrong and I need to punish that evil out of you.
2) You've been told the right way and are just not paying attention.
You need to be punished so you'll listen to me.
Assume she's doing the best she can with her knowledge, skills and
level of development. What she needs is your *help* to do better. She
may need more help and patience than you believe she needs, but how
many times in your life have you told yourself you only need one
cookie and then reached for another (or whatever your personal
weakness is)? And you've had how many years on this planet?
Knowing not to do something isn't the same as being able to not do it
or to do something else instead. She gets a build up of anger and she
really doesn't know what to do to make it feel better. And what
you're giving her is a block to feeling better. Help her find
something better.
*But*, while we can't make life perfectly not frustrating for kids
(nor should we try), a lot of mindful parenting is about being aware
of our kids and helping them *before* they get to the point of break
down. Rather than being their life director, be their partner,
helping them get what they want. (Your needs get worked in there too,
but they need to see you putting their needs as a top priority before
they can accept that you're trying to help them not thwart them.)
> My daughter is 5 and very much her own person and strong willed.If she truly is strong willed and not just a normal 5 yo who has
different ideas from you and not afraid to stand up for them (which
is perfectly admirable in adults but squashed in children because it
makes them inconvenient) you might find help in:
Raising Your Spirited Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060923288?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=0060923288&adid=0GCCX5EQXQZQ45WAQV7A&
The Explosive Child
http://www.amazon.com/dp/006077939X?
tag=theworldsreligon&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASI
N=006077939X&adid=015A3QP0GJ06TXY0KKFX&
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
We moved to Coastal NC a year ago (from New York) and we are still trying to find kindred spirits out here.
We live in Montana but visit Greenville, NC for a month every year. We were there Aug 20-Sept 20 this year. If you are anywhere near there (we also visit Ocracoke and Topsail islands usually) I wish we'd heard of you. If we go next year maybe we can meet.
Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We live in Montana but visit Greenville, NC for a month every year. We were there Aug 20-Sept 20 this year. If you are anywhere near there (we also visit Ocracoke and Topsail islands usually) I wish we'd heard of you. If we go next year maybe we can meet.
Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janna Beth Ryan
Hi Joyce,
I appreciate your feedback and insights - thank you
Sincerely,
Janna
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I appreciate your feedback and insights - thank you
Sincerely,
Janna
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