was Re: Mom Video now relationship building
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
I have two children who are 10 and 7 and I don't think I've said any of what she says in a very long, long time. Like years long time. At least not as anything other than a joke.
I don't have to threaten or coerce or really even coax them to do things, but I don't know if that is because they do those things on their own as much as it is because I don't have any expectation of what they ought to be doing. I will remind them to brush their teeth, but I don't make them brush their teeth. If we need to get up early to do something in the morning I will mention it the night before and wake them up, if I need to, in the morning and help them to get ready by fetching clothes and making sure there is food for in the car and that they have everything they need for whatever it is we are getting to at such an early hour.
If I ask Linnaea (7) do to something, like get something for me, or put something in the trash, or anything she'll often say yes. Simon (10) is more likely to say yes and always has been. But recently I have only occasionally had Linnaea tell me no to a request. If and when she says no I don't get mad, I just do it myself. I truly was asking her to do something, not telling her. I think, really believe, that the yesses come from the fact that she wants to give to me. I give so freely, so happily of myself, I help when they want help, I work hard to try and say yes as much as possible, and she loves that, she appreciates that, she likes the way it feels and she wants to return that. And, more than that, she trusts me. She trusts me to not misuse her, or take advantage of the relationship or stress that something is important when it isn't. She trusts that the information I give her is good, is true information. She trusts that a big part of my life is
made of trying to bring joy to her life. But that trust didn't come overnight. It took time and work and truly changing my expectations of what our relationship was and what her obligations to that relationship were.
They both also trust each other. Because they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have to get along (I will work to make sure that when things are bad between them that they don't have to hang out), they have had the time to figure out how they enjoy to be with each other. Today we went on a walk, Simon initiated it, about halfway into it Linnaea started to feel ill. Her stomach was cramping and her new boots were giving her blisters (she and I had both forgotten to grab socks). I said let's go home, and Simon, who wanted to walk more and longer, never once did anything but help his sister get back to the car. When we were in the car he worked really hard to get her cold (she was feeling hot) and to keep the dog from panting on her. It was amazing to see this moment of his generousity in action.
You may want to think about what your expectations are. Why do they need to clean their plates? Why do they have to sit at the table to eat and when they do why do they have to have polite manners? If they dress inappropriately for the weather can you bring extra clothes so that they can change if they get too cold or too hot? If you want a happy, comfortable relationship with your kids you have take some of the burden of making their lives easier and more comfortable. Every time you think of something that they ought to be doing, not having their elbows on the table, think about why that is important in that minute, how does that really impact your life, and is it worth having an elbowless table to nag them to follow someone else's rules of ettiquette?
The amazing thing about unschooling, about this life that I live with Simon and Linnaea, is how much affirmation it contains. They seek me out to share funny things they find on-line, or shows they know I like on television. Linnaea called me from the beach last week to just say hello and tell me what a good time she was having and to thank me for packing her some food. If I have a bad moment, a bad response, they accept my apology. They are generous and kind and patient and interesting and so much fun to be around. I cannot imagine defining my day by a litany of demands, impatience, unhappiness and tension. The video made me sad, made me feel bad for the women as they stood and applauded, and for the children they would go home to feeling justified in the universality of how difficult it is to be a mother (whose work is never done).
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
-------------
I find this video hilarious because it does remind me of my life. While
I have never said all these phrases in one day, I've certainly used many
of them. My tween no longer gets up without my wake up call, as she
used to when she was younger. Like many teens, her body naturally wants
to keep her awake at night and asleep in the morning. However, she has
to wake up at 8am, not 11am, to fulfill her commitments. My son doesn't
brush his teeth without my reminder.
I often have to teach and remind my kids to wake up, dress appropriately
for the weather, clean up, eat the food on the plate, use decent table
manners, be fair to others, treat their siblings well, etc.
I'm really surprised to find that there are moms who never have to teach
and remind their kids to do any of these things. I would love to learn
how to get the kids to do these things without my coaxing.
Sandra,
http://onlivingbylearning.blogspot.com/2007/10/total-momsense-revisted.h\
tml
<http://onlivingbylearning.blogspot.com/2007/10/total-momsense-revisted.\
html>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't have to threaten or coerce or really even coax them to do things, but I don't know if that is because they do those things on their own as much as it is because I don't have any expectation of what they ought to be doing. I will remind them to brush their teeth, but I don't make them brush their teeth. If we need to get up early to do something in the morning I will mention it the night before and wake them up, if I need to, in the morning and help them to get ready by fetching clothes and making sure there is food for in the car and that they have everything they need for whatever it is we are getting to at such an early hour.
If I ask Linnaea (7) do to something, like get something for me, or put something in the trash, or anything she'll often say yes. Simon (10) is more likely to say yes and always has been. But recently I have only occasionally had Linnaea tell me no to a request. If and when she says no I don't get mad, I just do it myself. I truly was asking her to do something, not telling her. I think, really believe, that the yesses come from the fact that she wants to give to me. I give so freely, so happily of myself, I help when they want help, I work hard to try and say yes as much as possible, and she loves that, she appreciates that, she likes the way it feels and she wants to return that. And, more than that, she trusts me. She trusts me to not misuse her, or take advantage of the relationship or stress that something is important when it isn't. She trusts that the information I give her is good, is true information. She trusts that a big part of my life is
made of trying to bring joy to her life. But that trust didn't come overnight. It took time and work and truly changing my expectations of what our relationship was and what her obligations to that relationship were.
They both also trust each other. Because they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have to get along (I will work to make sure that when things are bad between them that they don't have to hang out), they have had the time to figure out how they enjoy to be with each other. Today we went on a walk, Simon initiated it, about halfway into it Linnaea started to feel ill. Her stomach was cramping and her new boots were giving her blisters (she and I had both forgotten to grab socks). I said let's go home, and Simon, who wanted to walk more and longer, never once did anything but help his sister get back to the car. When we were in the car he worked really hard to get her cold (she was feeling hot) and to keep the dog from panting on her. It was amazing to see this moment of his generousity in action.
You may want to think about what your expectations are. Why do they need to clean their plates? Why do they have to sit at the table to eat and when they do why do they have to have polite manners? If they dress inappropriately for the weather can you bring extra clothes so that they can change if they get too cold or too hot? If you want a happy, comfortable relationship with your kids you have take some of the burden of making their lives easier and more comfortable. Every time you think of something that they ought to be doing, not having their elbows on the table, think about why that is important in that minute, how does that really impact your life, and is it worth having an elbowless table to nag them to follow someone else's rules of ettiquette?
The amazing thing about unschooling, about this life that I live with Simon and Linnaea, is how much affirmation it contains. They seek me out to share funny things they find on-line, or shows they know I like on television. Linnaea called me from the beach last week to just say hello and tell me what a good time she was having and to thank me for packing her some food. If I have a bad moment, a bad response, they accept my apology. They are generous and kind and patient and interesting and so much fun to be around. I cannot imagine defining my day by a litany of demands, impatience, unhappiness and tension. The video made me sad, made me feel bad for the women as they stood and applauded, and for the children they would go home to feeling justified in the universality of how difficult it is to be a mother (whose work is never done).
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
-------------
I find this video hilarious because it does remind me of my life. While
I have never said all these phrases in one day, I've certainly used many
of them. My tween no longer gets up without my wake up call, as she
used to when she was younger. Like many teens, her body naturally wants
to keep her awake at night and asleep in the morning. However, she has
to wake up at 8am, not 11am, to fulfill her commitments. My son doesn't
brush his teeth without my reminder.
I often have to teach and remind my kids to wake up, dress appropriately
for the weather, clean up, eat the food on the plate, use decent table
manners, be fair to others, treat their siblings well, etc.
I'm really surprised to find that there are moms who never have to teach
and remind their kids to do any of these things. I would love to learn
how to get the kids to do these things without my coaxing.
Sandra,
http://onlivingbylearning.blogspot.com/2007/10/total-momsense-revisted.h\
tml
<http://onlivingbylearning.blogspot.com/2007/10/total-momsense-revisted.\
html>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
onthelongroad
It's probably obvious that I am new to the whole philosophy of
unschooling. In fact, one of my children attends private school while I
homeschool the other. I love the idea of the beautiful family
relationship that you describe, but you're also right to point out that
a lot depends on our expectations. I don't feel like I can relax about
everything, all the time. For example, I really don't care whether we
share regular family meals. However, it's important to my husband that
we gather to eat together at least once or twice a week. We rarely
remind our children about proper table manners, but table etiquette was
something that we addressed when they were younger because it was very
important to my Czech mother-in-law (especially when we were travelling
in Europe.) Now, we just hope that food will not be used as fodder for
catapults (or any of the other fun, creative ideas that my children have
tried at the table in the past.)
Somehow my 11-year-old daughter & 8-year-old son do usually treat each
other well. They never admit that they love each other, but I see
evidence of that in their daily actions. Right now, they are outside
playing together in the autumn leaves. However, a day rarely passes
where there isn't some perceived egregious action that seems to require
my arbitration skills and a reminder (as in the Mom Video) to 'work it
out." I do think that encouraging them to see things from the other's
perspective or to consider how an action could have hurt the other's
feelings, has had a positive impact on their relationship. hmm... I
guess this goes back to our expectations. My parents never noticed that
my brother & I fought all the time, and I guess I want my kids to have a
more loving relationship than that.
So, how do you deal with sibling arguments? Do your ever kids argue or
fight? If so, do they come to you for help in settling the disagreement?
You say that "they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have
to get along." What does this mean?
Thank you, Sandra Living By Learning
<http://www.onlivingbylearning.blogspot.com/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling. In fact, one of my children attends private school while I
homeschool the other. I love the idea of the beautiful family
relationship that you describe, but you're also right to point out that
a lot depends on our expectations. I don't feel like I can relax about
everything, all the time. For example, I really don't care whether we
share regular family meals. However, it's important to my husband that
we gather to eat together at least once or twice a week. We rarely
remind our children about proper table manners, but table etiquette was
something that we addressed when they were younger because it was very
important to my Czech mother-in-law (especially when we were travelling
in Europe.) Now, we just hope that food will not be used as fodder for
catapults (or any of the other fun, creative ideas that my children have
tried at the table in the past.)
Somehow my 11-year-old daughter & 8-year-old son do usually treat each
other well. They never admit that they love each other, but I see
evidence of that in their daily actions. Right now, they are outside
playing together in the autumn leaves. However, a day rarely passes
where there isn't some perceived egregious action that seems to require
my arbitration skills and a reminder (as in the Mom Video) to 'work it
out." I do think that encouraging them to see things from the other's
perspective or to consider how an action could have hurt the other's
feelings, has had a positive impact on their relationship. hmm... I
guess this goes back to our expectations. My parents never noticed that
my brother & I fought all the time, and I guess I want my kids to have a
more loving relationship than that.
So, how do you deal with sibling arguments? Do your ever kids argue or
fight? If so, do they come to you for help in settling the disagreement?
You say that "they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have
to get along." What does this mean?
Thank you, Sandra Living By Learning
<http://www.onlivingbylearning.blogspot.com/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "onthelongroad"
<onthelongroad@...> wrote:
space or quiet, for example and working to find other places or
quieter activities for the other kid. No, they don't "have to get
along" all the time - but the alternative to that doesn't have to be
fighting, it can be me or George taking one kid for a walk or a trip
to the store or finding a fun movie to watch or offering to do a
project.
When the prevention thing doesn't happen, I work to help them find
mutually acceptible solutions to whatever the problem. Many times
the problem is a communication breakdown, so I do
some "translating" - "oh, he didn't mean you can't ever play on the
computer, he meant you can have it when he's done". Other times its
a matter of two people wanting to use the same very small space for
different activities, so I work to find other options - different
rooms, different activities, a trip to the store (my emergency back-
up plan for so many things!). They may need help prioritizing or, as
you said, seeing another perspective.
out if they don't get to see some modelling? What does "working it
out" even look like? With little adult support it often looks like a
bigger kid getting his or her way as a result of being bigger, or a
smaller kid whining or throwing a tantrum until an adult yells at
the bigger kid.
Actually working things out takes a bit of practice - for adults
too! I find it helpful to keep in mind that everyone's needs are
important and validate those needs. Its not always possible to find
the perfect solution in this exact moment, but everyone's needs are
still important - including the need for a sympathetic ear or
shoulder when things don't work out just right.
That's one of the places unschooling departs from conventional
parenting, btw - in conventional parenting the idea that "we can't
always get what we want" is used as a sort of solution. Its an end-
point, anyway. You want what? well, you can't always get what you
want. Bleh. In whole life unschooling its a starting point. Its not
always possible to get exactly what you want in this exact moment,
so how can we make it better?
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
<onthelongroad@...> wrote:
>> So, how do you deal with sibling arguments? Do your ever kidsargue or
> fight? If so, do they come to you for help in settling thedisagreement?
> You say that "they don't have to be nice to each other, they don'thave
> to get along." What does this mean?I do a certain amount of prevention - noticing when one kid needs
space or quiet, for example and working to find other places or
quieter activities for the other kid. No, they don't "have to get
along" all the time - but the alternative to that doesn't have to be
fighting, it can be me or George taking one kid for a walk or a trip
to the store or finding a fun movie to watch or offering to do a
project.
When the prevention thing doesn't happen, I work to help them find
mutually acceptible solutions to whatever the problem. Many times
the problem is a communication breakdown, so I do
some "translating" - "oh, he didn't mean you can't ever play on the
computer, he meant you can have it when he's done". Other times its
a matter of two people wanting to use the same very small space for
different activities, so I work to find other options - different
rooms, different activities, a trip to the store (my emergency back-
up plan for so many things!). They may need help prioritizing or, as
you said, seeing another perspective.
> a reminder (as in the Mom Video) to 'work it out."That one always gets me - how the heck are kids supposed to work it
out if they don't get to see some modelling? What does "working it
out" even look like? With little adult support it often looks like a
bigger kid getting his or her way as a result of being bigger, or a
smaller kid whining or throwing a tantrum until an adult yells at
the bigger kid.
Actually working things out takes a bit of practice - for adults
too! I find it helpful to keep in mind that everyone's needs are
important and validate those needs. Its not always possible to find
the perfect solution in this exact moment, but everyone's needs are
still important - including the need for a sympathetic ear or
shoulder when things don't work out just right.
That's one of the places unschooling departs from conventional
parenting, btw - in conventional parenting the idea that "we can't
always get what we want" is used as a sort of solution. Its an end-
point, anyway. You want what? well, you can't always get what you
want. Bleh. In whole life unschooling its a starting point. Its not
always possible to get exactly what you want in this exact moment,
so how can we make it better?
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
So, how do you deal with sibling arguments? Do your ever kids argue or
fight? If so, do they come to you for help in settling the disagreement?
You say that "they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have
to get along." What does this mean?
--------------
I lived with my brother for 13 years, for 26 years we haven't shared a house. I don't have a very close relationship with him. I don't talk to him very often and I see him maybe once every 2 years. I have no sense of what my children's adult relationship with each other will be. But I know that mine, in which as a child I was told to work it out and get along, didn't foster a warm and close relationship. I cannot produce a friendship, a closeness in my children and as such I don't see it as a necessary part of their lives. Thus, they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have to get along. It is my job to keep both of them safe and comfortable, but it isn't possible for me to make them like each other.
David and I chose, actively, long discussions, chose to have a second child. Simon may have accidentally, joyfully, become a part of my life, but the sibling that I foisted upon him was my and David's doing. And because of that I recognize that David and I are the mediators of their relationship. So if things are going well, I need to help them to continue to go well. I need to make sure that hunger or sleepiness or thirst or whatever doesn't help things to spiral down into a bad scene, an awful moment. It helps to have things to do that interest both of them so if one thing, like the television, is being sought by both I can offer something to do that will appeal to one of them. Or find a way for both of their needs to be met. And the more that I help them to work through their difficult moments, the better they get at working through them when I don't get there in time. It also helps if I am present with them. If I can hear them playing together,
hanging out. I can usually hear when things are beginning to get tense. If I can step in before things get too tense than I can help to stop the tension from growing.
Unschooling is an incredibly hands on approach; you've got to be there, you've got to listen and pay attention. And it takes time, it takes dedication. But it gives such joy. I love hearing Simon and Linnaea playing Sly Cooper and his band of thieves on the PS2 and making deals and working out who can play which and how they want each to work. And I truly think not making them responsible for the peace in our house make it easier for them to enjoy the peace and keep it going.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fight? If so, do they come to you for help in settling the disagreement?
You say that "they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have
to get along." What does this mean?
--------------
I lived with my brother for 13 years, for 26 years we haven't shared a house. I don't have a very close relationship with him. I don't talk to him very often and I see him maybe once every 2 years. I have no sense of what my children's adult relationship with each other will be. But I know that mine, in which as a child I was told to work it out and get along, didn't foster a warm and close relationship. I cannot produce a friendship, a closeness in my children and as such I don't see it as a necessary part of their lives. Thus, they don't have to be nice to each other, they don't have to get along. It is my job to keep both of them safe and comfortable, but it isn't possible for me to make them like each other.
David and I chose, actively, long discussions, chose to have a second child. Simon may have accidentally, joyfully, become a part of my life, but the sibling that I foisted upon him was my and David's doing. And because of that I recognize that David and I are the mediators of their relationship. So if things are going well, I need to help them to continue to go well. I need to make sure that hunger or sleepiness or thirst or whatever doesn't help things to spiral down into a bad scene, an awful moment. It helps to have things to do that interest both of them so if one thing, like the television, is being sought by both I can offer something to do that will appeal to one of them. Or find a way for both of their needs to be met. And the more that I help them to work through their difficult moments, the better they get at working through them when I don't get there in time. It also helps if I am present with them. If I can hear them playing together,
hanging out. I can usually hear when things are beginning to get tense. If I can step in before things get too tense than I can help to stop the tension from growing.
Unschooling is an incredibly hands on approach; you've got to be there, you've got to listen and pay attention. And it takes time, it takes dedication. But it gives such joy. I love hearing Simon and Linnaea playing Sly Cooper and his band of thieves on the PS2 and making deals and working out who can play which and how they want each to work. And I truly think not making them responsible for the peace in our house make it easier for them to enjoy the peace and keep it going.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]