Vicki

I've been on the list awhile and really appreciate everything I read.
My ds is 4.5 yrs old. We are unschooling and mom (me) works each
day to deschool myself in thoughts of education and parenting! I
think I'm getting it but I know I can slip up from time to time when
I'm tired and exhausted. Our ds has lead us to unschooling. I'm so
glad he did!

My ds is high energy, loves to run, bounce, climb and have fun. He
also likes things his way and has even so much told me recently, "I
want to do this or that my way and I know what I want". Great! No
trouble having to guess what he wants at that time. However, it can
make play dates difficult from time to time. Other children may not
want to necessarily play his way. KWIM. ;) My real concern is, I
have observed him in his gymnastics class being pushy to the other
kids to get the exact place he wants to be in line or sitting waiting
for the next exercise. Let me state he loves gymnastics. He can't
wait to get there each week. We've talked about how everyone gets
their "turn" to do each piece of equipment etc. I have also noticed
the instructor being aware of this and will often pick the children
out of the line in not a consistent order. So if ds is in front the
instructor may pick a child from the middle or end. So my ds and I
have talked about how would he like it if another child pushed him to
get in a particular spot etc. When they are sitting I've noticed he
will lean on the person next to him till they move. We've talked
about how pushing another person isn't kind and that person could get
hurt. At the end of class this week, I saw him push this little girl
twice who was in front of him. When he came to me after class. I
asked if he had fun and he was excited and said yes. We basked a
little in his excitement. As we talked about what they did in class I
told him I had seen him push this little girl. I asked him why did
he push her. His answer was, "she's moving too slow and was in my
way. I wanted to be first in line." In our discussion we talked
about how gymnastics class is set up by children getting into line to
move from each different exercise. It really doesn't matter where you
are in that line as each person gets an equal turn on the equipment.
We also talked about how the instructor choses the kids randomly from
the line so placement doesn't really matter. We also talked about he
could of really hurt this little girl by pushing her. She also asked
him to stop the first time he pushed her. He did it again and she
asked him to stop. Then she told the instructor what he did. Again
we talked about it, if he was in line and the person behind him pushed
him and he asked to not be pushed, how would of he felt if the person
pushed him again. He said he wouldn't like that.

Any thoughts out there? We are talking about it but I often read such
great things from many of you on the list. I'm always open for
different perspectives and always, always learning! I've got my
newspaper rolled up and ready to whack myself on the head at any given
time. LOL.

Thanks for your advice.

Kelly Weyd

My girls are in a gymnastics class, they are 7 & 9.......and also LOVE gymnastics. Most of the kids in the class are between 7 and 10, but there is one little girl that is around your sons age. She is in the class because she is a pretty good little gymnast and the pre-school age class is just too easy for her. But she is young so same thing as your son. She pushes, she screams at people, she will do anything to shove her way to the front, etc.
I really just think it's the age. I know this is not helpful, but I would just continue to talk to him. I do remember this stage with my daughter's and learning to take turns was really a really hard one.
Kelly

Vicki <vharkness@...> wrote:

I've been on the list awhile and really appreciate everything I read.
My ds is 4.5 yrs old. We are unschooling and mom (me) works each
day to deschool myself in thoughts of education and parenting! I
think I'm getting it but I know I can slip up from time to time when
I'm tired and exhausted. Our ds has lead us to unschooling. I'm so
glad he did!

My ds is high energy, loves to run, bounce, climb and have fun. He
also likes things his way and has even so much told me recently, "I
want to do this or that my way and I know what I want". Great! No
trouble having to guess what he wants at that time. However, it can
make play dates difficult from time to time. Other children may not
want to necessarily play his way. KWIM. ;) My real concern is, I
have observed him in his gymnastics class being pushy to the other
kids to get the exact place he wants to be in line or sitting waiting
for the next exercise. Let me state he loves gymnastics. He can't
wait to get there each week. We've talked about how everyone gets
their "turn" to do each piece of equipment etc. I have also noticed
the instructor being aware of this and will often pick the children
out of the line in not a consistent order. So if ds is in front the
instructor may pick a child from the middle or end. So my ds and I
have talked about how would he like it if another child pushed him to
get in a particular spot etc. When they are sitting I've noticed he
will lean on the person next to him till they move. We've talked
about how pushing another person isn't kind and that person could get
hurt. At the end of class this week, I saw him push this little girl
twice who was in front of him. When he came to me after class. I
asked if he had fun and he was excited and said yes. We basked a
little in his excitement. As we talked about what they did in class I
told him I had seen him push this little girl. I asked him why did
he push her. His answer was, "she's moving too slow and was in my
way. I wanted to be first in line." In our discussion we talked
about how gymnastics class is set up by children getting into line to
move from each different exercise. It really doesn't matter where you
are in that line as each person gets an equal turn on the equipment.
We also talked about how the instructor choses the kids randomly from
the line so placement doesn't really matter. We also talked about he
could of really hurt this little girl by pushing her. She also asked
him to stop the first time he pushed her. He did it again and she
asked him to stop. Then she told the instructor what he did. Again
we talked about it, if he was in line and the person behind him pushed
him and he asked to not be pushed, how would of he felt if the person
pushed him again. He said he wouldn't like that.

Any thoughts out there? We are talking about it but I often read such
great things from many of you on the list. I'm always open for
different perspectives and always, always learning! I've got my
newspaper rolled up and ready to whack myself on the head at any given
time. LOL.

Thanks for your advice.






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lspswr

> My ds is high energy, loves to run, bounce, climb and have fun. He
> also likes things his way and has even so much told me recently, "I
> want to do this or that my way and I know what I want". Great! No
> trouble having to guess what he wants at that time. However, it can
> make play dates difficult from time to time. Other children may not
> want to necessarily play his way. KWIM. ;) My real concern is, I
> have observed him in his gymnastics class being pushy to the other
> kids to get the exact place he wants to be in line or sitting
waiting
> for the next exercise. <

When my ds was that age we had very similar issues. It has just
recently gotten better - he's almost 8. He's always been sensory-
seeking and enjoys what I call "crash and bash." One thing that
helped get us through this is ice hockey, which ds started as soon as
he turned 4 (completely his choice as dh and I don't even really
skate). Suited up in all that heavy gear, flying around on the ice,
pushing to go faster, bashing into people, walls and the ice... and
it being *okay to behave that way,* that was a great outlet for him.
The other advantage is that it's a year round sport, so if you've got
a rink nearby you might want to find out when the Mighty Mites play
and go watch to see if your ds is interested. It doesn't really deal
with the behavior, but it does provide an appropriate outlet for it.
And they do seem to grow out of it eventually.... Just an idea.

Vicki

--- In [email protected], "lspswr" <lspswr@...> wrote:
>
>
> When my ds was that age we had very similar issues. It has just
> recently gotten better - he's almost 8. He's always been sensory-
> seeking and enjoys what I call "crash and bash." One thing that
> helped get us through this is ice hockey, which ds started as soon as
> he turned 4 (completely his choice as dh and I don't even really
> skate). Suited up in all that heavy gear, flying around on the ice,
> pushing to go faster, bashing into people, walls and the ice... and
> it being *okay to behave that way,* that was a great outlet for him.
> The other advantage is that it's a year round sport, so if you've got
> a rink nearby you might want to find out when the Mighty Mites play
> and go watch to see if your ds is interested. It doesn't really deal
> with the behavior, but it does provide an appropriate outlet for it.
> And they do seem to grow out of it eventually.... Just an idea.
>

Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions. It's so funny and
great you mention hockey. I had inquired about hockey lessons/local
team just a few weeks ago. I made arrangements with the instructor
that we could come watch the first lesson/practice and see if this is
something ds would like to do. He's taken a few sessions of ice
skating lessons and does enjoy it. As a matter of fact, he and his
dad went ice skating today. So I just love your suggestion. It
will provide that outlet. He is a rough and tumble boy, but has a
heart of gold and at the same time can be so sensitive.

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Vicki" <vharkness@...>
wrote:
>> We've talked about how everyone gets
> their "turn" to do each piece of equipment etc. I have also
noticed
> the instructor being aware of this and will often pick the children
> out of the line in not a consistent order. So if ds is in front
the
> instructor may pick a child from the middle or end. So my ds and I
> have talked about how would he like it if another child pushed him
to
> get in a particular spot etc.

4.5 may be a little young for this kind of empathy - it really
depends on the kid. Its likely that in the moment his own desires
are So Strong he can't think from another perspective, yet.

Its also probably not helpful to keep talking about this with him
from the perspective of place in line and turns and all that - since
that's where he's getting "stuck" in his own mind, as it were. It
might be better to focus on the feelings/cues of the other people in
the room without any reference to who's standing where and why. So
maybe you could say "so-and-so didn't seem to like being pushed very
much - what would help you remember not to push?"

> She also asked
> him to stop the first time he pushed her. He did it again and she
> asked him to stop.

Were you in the room? We use "stop" as our "safe word" as it were,
and I've been known to say something like: "I heard a "stop""
or "Ouch means stop" or (my personal favorite) "Stop means Stop!" I
wouldn't leave something like that up to a teacher or worse, a group
of little kids, I'd say something myself, *especially* to my own
child! Its this kind of situation exactly that led me to
homeschooling in the first place - some kids need a whole lot more
feedback and support in groups than others and its unkind to
everyone, including the "bullying" child, to withhold that support.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Vicki

Thank you Meredith for your comments.

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> 4.5 may be a little young for this kind of empathy - it really
> depends on the kid. Its likely that in the moment his own desires
> are So Strong he can't think from another perspective, yet.

(Vicki) Yes he does have empathy but I think you are right. His own
desires are so strong he can't think of that empathy at the moment.
He does later. So any suggestions on working on helping him with that
or time will tell?


>(Meredith)
> Its also probably not helpful to keep talking about this with him
> from the perspective of place in line and turns and all that - since
> that's where he's getting "stuck" in his own mind, as it were. It
> might be better to focus on the feelings/cues of the other people in
> the room without any reference to who's standing where and why. So
> maybe you could say "so-and-so didn't seem to like being pushed very
> much - what would help you remember not to push?"

(Vicki) Absolutely! Our discussions always are first about the other
child's feelings. Feelings have always been our focus and I guess I
should of expressed that in the post. One thing we have always talked
about is "would you like it if so-and-so pushed you or jumped in front
of you in line?" I always get the answer "NO" loud and clear. Then
we talk about what he did to that person and he thinks about it and
then defends himself by saying "but they were taking too long or they
are in my way" Which brings me back to we are all different and we
move in different ways and sometimes it can be frustrating to us if
things don't happen the way you want but remember, you will get a
turn. This is his third session of these 10 week session of
gymnastics and this behavior has just cropped up in the last few
weeks. It seems to me he has went through another developmental phase
as he's grown in height and suddenly his interests have changed. For
example, he had no interest before in the alphabet. Now he's learned
all of his letters in no time and is actually trying to read. It's
like he can't get enough of alphabet stimulation.


>(Meredith) Were you in the room?
(Vicki)YES, but it's a huge gymnasium and I was not next to him. This
is not a parent/child class. This is a child class and parents can be
in the gymnasium watching from the side lines. I watch him throughout
the class.

(Meredith)> We use "stop" as our "safe word" as it were, and I've
been known to say something like: "I heard a "stop"
> or "Ouch means stop" or (my personal favorite) "Stop means Stop!" I
> wouldn't leave something like that up to a teacher or worse, a group
> of little kids, I'd say something myself, *especially* to my own
> child!

(vicki)Oh my Meredith, I wouldn't dream of leaving something like
that to a group of little kids. Hmmm, I must present myself better
in posts if that is what you understood!! That's a very scary
thought! I also wouldn't leave it to the instructor. You are right,
this is my child! Of course I said something immediately, but he
couldn't hear me as I was across the gymnasium. As soon as he was
close enough I talked with him. When I have observed him leaning on
some one while sitting there I have got his attention. Shook my
head no. He stopped immediately. Sadly, this was one of those
situations where I just couldn't get his attention quick enough. I
should also detail again that behavior in line is something relatively
new. So I want to nip it in the bud quickly as I don't want a bully!!

Its this kind of situation exactly that led me to
> homeschooling in the first place - some kids need a whole lot more
> feedback and support in groups than others and its unkind to
> everyone, including the "bullying" child, to withhold that support.

Again Meredith. You are absolutely right! I am not a parent that
throws my child out there and doesn't pay attention to what's going
on. I know he needs my feedback often.

In my opinion I think there are "hands-on parents" and there are
"hands-off". We are totally hands-on and I do want to help guide my
son to peaceful play, kind and gentleness towards others, think of
others feelings. At the same time I want to honor the fact that he's
strong and wants to lead.

So I'm thinking one way to help him is outlets that let him be rough
and tumble. Like hockey if he likes it. Empathy discussions when
needed. Any peaceful leadership ideas?

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Vicki" <vharkness@...>
wrote:
>> Yes he does have empathy but I think you are right. His own
> desires are so strong he can't think of that empathy at the
moment.
> He does later. So any suggestions on working on helping him with
that
> or time will tell?

Time and doing what you're doing. Oh, and its good to know that
empathy will ebb and flow a little, especially with other
developmental stuff going on.

Its really sounding, from your reply, as though the problems he's
having are to do with the environment more than anything else - its
a big space and you can't be right there to get his attention when
he needs Mom. Is there antoher, smaller place he can do gymnastics
or something similar enough for his needs?

> Any peaceful leadership ideas?

Can you find an older kid or young adult who is willing to be led a
bit? That might let him get some rough-and-tumble fun in, too -
moreso than a same age or younger child.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)