"Within reason"
Karen Swanay
I had posted that I listen to my kids re: clothing or some such language
example, one son wanted a red leather sectional sofa priced at 7000.00.
That is beyond our restrictions. We did not have the money, the space, nor
the family situation for leather. The answer was no. Was that limiting
him? Yep. But unless one of the boys has access to a money fairy it's the
limits we have to abide by. Our budget for our new furniture was 2K not
7K. I told him our budget and showed him that was more. He's still
disappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the space in our
very small living room to make him happy?
Clothing: I do not..will not allow my sons to run about with their pubic
area hanging out of their pants. So, those huge pants that hang are
verboten. Is that squelching their individuality? Yeah probably. But too
bad. There are limits to what an individual can be allowed to do. I would
love to be topless on our beach but that's against the law. It would make
me happy. I'm still not allowed. Those are lessons that we all have to
learn. So, instead of the butt crack showing pants, they have something
else they pick out as long as their butt crack is hidden. AND the clothing
has to be within the family budget.
I am getting the impression still that there should be no limits on
children. I'm sure I'm missing something but I have yet to hear the loudest
voices on here show any limits they have on their children. So my question
is, where does it stop? If you have a 16 yr old daughter who wants to have
sex on your sofa in front of you 4 yr old is that OK? (I'm not being flip
seriously. I want to know if what I perceive being said is actually what's
being advocated.)
So, anyway, my kids still have limits on them...mostly they are the limits
of decency and budget but really, we all (our family) abide by the same
limits. I don't walk around with my butt crack showing either even though I
could do. I don't spend beyond what my husband makes even though I could
do. So is that wrong or have I finally gotten one thing right?
Karen *still struggling*
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "within reason" and someone questioned that. And then someone questioned *I"Within reason" means within the limits of our family's restrictions. For
> believe* I can't find the post now...about the boys having some input on our
> new furniture but we made the final decision. Since these are linked, I
> answer them here now.
>
example, one son wanted a red leather sectional sofa priced at 7000.00.
That is beyond our restrictions. We did not have the money, the space, nor
the family situation for leather. The answer was no. Was that limiting
him? Yep. But unless one of the boys has access to a money fairy it's the
limits we have to abide by. Our budget for our new furniture was 2K not
7K. I told him our budget and showed him that was more. He's still
disappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the space in our
very small living room to make him happy?
Clothing: I do not..will not allow my sons to run about with their pubic
area hanging out of their pants. So, those huge pants that hang are
verboten. Is that squelching their individuality? Yeah probably. But too
bad. There are limits to what an individual can be allowed to do. I would
love to be topless on our beach but that's against the law. It would make
me happy. I'm still not allowed. Those are lessons that we all have to
learn. So, instead of the butt crack showing pants, they have something
else they pick out as long as their butt crack is hidden. AND the clothing
has to be within the family budget.
I am getting the impression still that there should be no limits on
children. I'm sure I'm missing something but I have yet to hear the loudest
voices on here show any limits they have on their children. So my question
is, where does it stop? If you have a 16 yr old daughter who wants to have
sex on your sofa in front of you 4 yr old is that OK? (I'm not being flip
seriously. I want to know if what I perceive being said is actually what's
being advocated.)
So, anyway, my kids still have limits on them...mostly they are the limits
of decency and budget but really, we all (our family) abide by the same
limits. I don't walk around with my butt crack showing either even though I
could do. I don't spend beyond what my husband makes even though I could
do. So is that wrong or have I finally gotten one thing right?
Karen *still struggling*
>--
>
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/2007 5:31:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
luvbullbreeds@... writes:
very small living room to make him happy?>>>>>
In our home, an option to consider might have been...a red leather gaming
chair that could be moved into the living room and then back into the child's
room. We actually did that. My son has a red (leather-like) gaming chair in
his room. We painted his room red and black and carried it over to the
bathroom. I think the total cost was under $200. It is often possible to come to
consensual decisions by being very creative about the possibilities. Maybe
a small red leather gaming chair for $80 that could be moved into another
room would have been a way to involve him in the choices yet still be within
your budget and space limitations.
I'm not saying that is the only option, just one way to look at one
situation creatively. This type of thinking has really helped me in our unschooling
journey.
Some of the best advice I got in our early unschooling days were 1) say yes
more and 2) consider all the options. I found myself using this just this
morning when my daughter wanted to practice singing and her brother was just
sleeping....My comment was..."What do you think about moving the piano into
your room so you could practice earlier and it would still be quiet enough for
people still sleeping?" Much better than saying, "Don't sing right now!
It'll wake up your brother." or "Go ahead and sing. It's time for him to get up
anyway!"
Do you actually think any 16 year old girl would want to have sex in front
of their 4 year old brother? Really?
I have an 18 year old daughter right now sitting on the couch with her
boyfriend and they are very comfortable but respectful with their signs of
affection for each other. Her 14 year old brother is sitting with them and I can
hear them laughing together watching The 70's show. I asked them about your
question and they just could not comprehend why you would ask it. They don't
even kiss in front of the 14 year old because they know it makes him
uncomfortable. Living in a home of trust and respect fosters respect and kindness.
My two kids live in a home full of choices and abundance and trust. They
are kind and respectful and loving with each other, their friends and their
family. They have been trusted and respected and given these choices for years
now.
It is simply because they have been trusted that they have learned to make
good decisions for themselves rather than depending on others to make
decisions for them. Respect and trust will just naturally lead to positive choices
and not to the scenarios that you are imagining.
Gail
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
luvbullbreeds@... writes:
>>>>He's stilldisappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the space in our
very small living room to make him happy?>>>>>
In our home, an option to consider might have been...a red leather gaming
chair that could be moved into the living room and then back into the child's
room. We actually did that. My son has a red (leather-like) gaming chair in
his room. We painted his room red and black and carried it over to the
bathroom. I think the total cost was under $200. It is often possible to come to
consensual decisions by being very creative about the possibilities. Maybe
a small red leather gaming chair for $80 that could be moved into another
room would have been a way to involve him in the choices yet still be within
your budget and space limitations.
I'm not saying that is the only option, just one way to look at one
situation creatively. This type of thinking has really helped me in our unschooling
journey.
Some of the best advice I got in our early unschooling days were 1) say yes
more and 2) consider all the options. I found myself using this just this
morning when my daughter wanted to practice singing and her brother was just
sleeping....My comment was..."What do you think about moving the piano into
your room so you could practice earlier and it would still be quiet enough for
people still sleeping?" Much better than saying, "Don't sing right now!
It'll wake up your brother." or "Go ahead and sing. It's time for him to get up
anyway!"
Do you actually think any 16 year old girl would want to have sex in front
of their 4 year old brother? Really?
I have an 18 year old daughter right now sitting on the couch with her
boyfriend and they are very comfortable but respectful with their signs of
affection for each other. Her 14 year old brother is sitting with them and I can
hear them laughing together watching The 70's show. I asked them about your
question and they just could not comprehend why you would ask it. They don't
even kiss in front of the 14 year old because they know it makes him
uncomfortable. Living in a home of trust and respect fosters respect and kindness.
My two kids live in a home full of choices and abundance and trust. They
are kind and respectful and loving with each other, their friends and their
family. They have been trusted and respected and given these choices for years
now.
It is simply because they have been trusted that they have learned to make
good decisions for themselves rather than depending on others to make
decisions for them. Respect and trust will just naturally lead to positive choices
and not to the scenarios that you are imagining.
Gail
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
This reminds me of something that someone said to me, in person, not
on a list.
"I don't know how you can afford all those videogames," she said.
I said, "Huh?"
She said, "You have no limits on videogames, I heard."
I said, "Huh?" (Brilliant, aren't I?)
We miscommunicated for a few more minutes and then I realized that
she thought we bought our kids every videogame they ever asked for,
the minute they asked, no matter the cost.
Funny thing about that - my kids always saved up their own money to
buy videogames, we seldom bought one for them. They liked buying
their own - they liked saving up, anticipating, keeping an eye on the
price and the expansion packs and all that stuff. She bought her
kids' games, but then limited when and how long they were allowed to
play. "That" is what we mean by limits, not real limitations imposed
by real circumstances.
Point?
When we talk about "no limits," we explain, over and over, that what
we mean is that we don't set arbitrary, external limits on how much
they're allowed to play.
-pam
on a list.
"I don't know how you can afford all those videogames," she said.
I said, "Huh?"
She said, "You have no limits on videogames, I heard."
I said, "Huh?" (Brilliant, aren't I?)
We miscommunicated for a few more minutes and then I realized that
she thought we bought our kids every videogame they ever asked for,
the minute they asked, no matter the cost.
Funny thing about that - my kids always saved up their own money to
buy videogames, we seldom bought one for them. They liked buying
their own - they liked saving up, anticipating, keeping an eye on the
price and the expansion packs and all that stuff. She bought her
kids' games, but then limited when and how long they were allowed to
play. "That" is what we mean by limits, not real limitations imposed
by real circumstances.
Point?
When we talk about "no limits," we explain, over and over, that what
we mean is that we don't set arbitrary, external limits on how much
they're allowed to play.
-pam
On Oct 4, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
>
> "Within reason" means within the limits of our family's
> restrictions. For
> example, one son wanted a red leather sectional sofa priced at
> 7000.00.
> That is beyond our restrictions. We did not have the money, the
> space, nor
> the family situation for leather. The answer was no. Was that limiting
> him? Yep. But unless one of the boys has access to a money fairy
> it's the
> limits we have to abide by. Our budget for our new furniture was 2K
> not
> 7K. I told him our budget and showed him that was more. He's still
> disappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the space
> in our
> very small living room to make him happy?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 4, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:
either kids do what you want or they do whatever.
Kids who are controlled tend to push boundaries and reach for things
*because* they will get a rise out of parents. They make a good case
for the need for limits!
Kids who are partners with their parents, don't need to do that. They
don't need to prove that they can do what others think they can't
because no one's drawing arbitrary lines in the dirt that they aren't
allowed to cross.
Mindfully parented kids will want things we'd rather they didn't but
if they know we respect their needs, they'll take what we say
seriously. Doesn't mean they'll make the choice we would, but they
don't make choices based on the need to test their competence in the
face of distrust.
Controlled kids do not behave the same as mindfully parented ones.
If you try to extrapolate behavior based on average kids (meaning
kids who are controlled) it's not going to make sense why we can
trust our kids and not set limits. We do discuss things but we don't
expect them to make the decisions we would. When they're treated like
thoughtful people they become thoughtful people.
If the pants are illegal in your area, then you don't need a limit.
The limit already exists.
It's a useful question to ask yourself when trying to shift from no
to yes.
Really, that's a serious question. Do you think that 16 yos naturally
want to do that? And the only reason they don't is because parents
say don't?
I can guarantee that if a 16 yo is doing that it's 1) because they're
very angry and have a poor relationship with their parents (from
either tight control or lack of attention), or 2) they're growing up
in an environment where that kind of thing is happening around them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am getting the impression still that there should be no limits onYou're still dividing the world into two pieces. This time it's
> children.
either kids do what you want or they do whatever.
Kids who are controlled tend to push boundaries and reach for things
*because* they will get a rise out of parents. They make a good case
for the need for limits!
Kids who are partners with their parents, don't need to do that. They
don't need to prove that they can do what others think they can't
because no one's drawing arbitrary lines in the dirt that they aren't
allowed to cross.
Mindfully parented kids will want things we'd rather they didn't but
if they know we respect their needs, they'll take what we say
seriously. Doesn't mean they'll make the choice we would, but they
don't make choices based on the need to test their competence in the
face of distrust.
Controlled kids do not behave the same as mindfully parented ones.
If you try to extrapolate behavior based on average kids (meaning
kids who are controlled) it's not going to make sense why we can
trust our kids and not set limits. We do discuss things but we don't
expect them to make the decisions we would. When they're treated like
thoughtful people they become thoughtful people.
> So, those huge pants that hang are verboten.These aren't equivalent. One is a rule you've decide the other is a law.
>
> There are limits to what an individual can be allowed to do. I would
> love to be topless on our beach but that's against the law.
>
If the pants are illegal in your area, then you don't need a limit.
The limit already exists.
> So, those huge pants that hang are verboten.Who will die if they wear those style pants?
It's a useful question to ask yourself when trying to shift from no
to yes.
> If you have a 16 yr old daughter who wants to haveWhy would a 16 yo want to have sex in front of a 4 yo?
> sex on your sofa in front of you 4 yr old is that OK?
>
Really, that's a serious question. Do you think that 16 yos naturally
want to do that? And the only reason they don't is because parents
say don't?
I can guarantee that if a 16 yo is doing that it's 1) because they're
very angry and have a poor relationship with their parents (from
either tight control or lack of attention), or 2) they're growing up
in an environment where that kind of thing is happening around them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan
-=- For example, one son wanted a red leather sectional sofa priced at
7000.00. That is beyond our restrictions. We did not have the money,
the space, nor the family situation for leather. The answer was no.
Was that limiting him? Yep. But unless one of the boys has access to a
money fairy it's the limits we have to abide by. Our budget for our
new furniture was 2K not 7K. -=-
The ideas that I've found helpful in the many, many discussions on
this list about limits are:
Try to find a way to say yes - look for the "yes"
Avoid making arbitrary decisions
Validate your child's feelings
I'm still working on finding yes - I'm getting better at it. I wasn't
raised in a problem-solving family, so it's taken extra practice on my
part to find creative solutions and figure out how I can say "yes"
instead of "no". There are others here with more experience in seeing
the "yes" and can probably give suggestions.
One thing I've realized is that there are different ways of saying
yes. One way: "Yes, that would be a great sofa for when we get a
bigger house / in a few years when we have a bigger budget, etc."
Another way: "You certainly do have great taste! Yes, I really want
your opinion about which couch we should pick. What other neat sofas
do you see?" And another way: "Yes, red is a perfect color for our
room! Our budget is $2000. Do you see any red sofas for that price? I
know we can find one. Let's look together!"
Another example of yes: A really neat thing I saw at a recent
unschooling conference (Live and Learn) were kids climbing the walls -
literally! The buildings had these great rock-wall foundations that
went about ten feet high, with rocks sticking out at various angles.
They were so tempting to climb! I didn't see anyone tell their child
"no". What I *did* see were numerous parents standing with their
children, hands steadying them, as they helped them climb the walls
safely.
Speaking of climbing things, saying yes more has helped dh & I build
trust with our son. He is a fantastic climber and seeks experiences
that sometimes push our comfort level. We used to limit him, tell him
no, pull him down from ledges/walls/trees and generally stopped him
from doing things that (supposedly) aren't safe for kids to do.
Traditional parenting says we were doing the right thing, because kids
need boundaries and they don't know their limits, so we have to set
limits for them.
Through learning about RU we could see that there *IS* a different
approach, one that makes both practical and intuitive sense to us. We
weren't taking his abilities into account, we were being really
inflexible (as people who live by "rules" tend to be), we weren't
evaluating each situation independently, we weren't supporting his
interest.
Hindsight is 20/20 - we can see that our actions and unreasonableness
were just creating a barrier in our relationship and driving him to
meet his need in unsafe ways. The more we resisted and limited, the
more often he would sneak and do it anyways, without our presence. It
scared us. We knew limiting him even more or resorting to punishment
for not following our "rule" was not the answer. So we chose to take a
different route.
By supporting his interest we've found that he now *asks* us to be
present when he climbs - he trusts that we will support him, not scold
him. His also much safer - he's not seeking the experience without
help or taking every stolen - and potentially very dangerous -
opportunity he can find. He feels good about us being with him. He
knows that he can express an interest to climb something and we'll try
our best to make it happen.
We can see that when he's allowed to explore freely and safely he is
really good about knowing his own limitations and respecting them -
since we changed our approach (and attitude) he hasn't felt the need
to attempt truly dangerous climbs and he hasn't sustained more than a
few minor scratches. Finding the yes has eliminated the power
struggle, which was a source of unending frustration for all of us.
Now we can share in the joy of his interest rather than fear it. In
doing so we've have fostered an atmosphere of trust and collaboration.
-=- I told him our budget and showed him that was more. He's still
disappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the space in our
very small living room to make him happy? -=-
Help walk your child through the situation. Share the process you went
through in evaluating the options. Give them a chance to share their
thoughts. "Yes, let's think about that. We could keep the old sofa and
save up for this one, but it would probably take us about two years.
The old sofa is in pretty bad shape, I don't think it would last that
long. I'd rather save up for our vacation to Hawaii / a playstation2 /
that really cool swingset you saw last week. What do you think? Do you
have any ideas?"
If you only have $2k to spend on a sofa that's a practical limit.
Sometimes we bump up against practical limits. The point others are
trying to make is that we don't need to *create* inflexible rules or
impose limits arbitrarily. If we look hard enough at almost any
situation, we can usually see a gray area - in most cases the
situation is not as black/white or win/lose as we may first think. In
situations where we do bump up against natural limits, it becomes
really important to look for alternatives that allow you to say "yes"
and to validate your child's experience.
It's *okay* for your son to be disappointed about not getting the sofa
he desired. Sometimes I was uncomfortable when I sensed feelings of
anger, disappointment, sadness, etc., in my kids. I don't want them to
feel that way but often the methods I used were not helpful. Denying
the feeling or telling a child to "get over it" doesn't make it go
away - but it can lead to them feeling worse - only increasing their
feelings of anger, frustration, or sadness because no one is
listening to them or trying to understand how they feel. Even if I
*did* understand, they weren't hearing that message when I told them
"sorry, that's the way it is".
By acknowledging their feelings, I can help them work through it,
making it becomes easier for them to let go. It also lets them know
that I care - that what they're feeling matters to me. I used to be
scared of doing this - I thought that focusing on their feelings would
only intensify them or cause them to linger on it longer. But the
opposite is true. When I ignored my children's disappointment over
something they would act out in other ways or stew over their feelings
for hours. They were seeking acknowledgment and release and I was
withholding it. I also realized how *I* felt when someone I cared
about brushed my feelings aside. Imagine if your husband or friend
told you (even kindly) to just get over it or they ignored your
feelings. It can be hurtful and frustrating.
Different approaches work for different kids; what may be soothing and
helpful to my kids may not be effective with yours, but you can use
feedback from your kids and the particulars of the situation to
develop some tools for helping them cope with intense feelings. Try to
validate their concern/desire, let them know you've heard them, and
create an opportunity for them to share details. You can grant their
wish through imagination or take the silly route to get them laughing.
For example:
Wow, you really want to get that big red sectional, don't you?
You're feeling disappointed that we can't afford it right now.
What do you like best about it?
I like the color, too. And it does have enough room for all of us!
In fact, it may even hold a giraffe and a few kangaroos, too! How about that?
What kind of potion could we use to make it small enough to fit into our house?
I wish I could make this money grow like those flowers you planted,
then we'd have enough to get that couch! How cool would that be?
Too bad it won't fit in our house right now. We should take a picture
of it for our wish book, don't you think?
I can see you really like that red color. You know, I bet we can find
a red ottoman!
-=- Clothing: I do not..will not allow my sons to run about with their
pubic area hanging out of their pants. <snip> I would love to be
topless on our beach but that's against the law. It would make me
happy. I'm still not allowed. Those are lessons that we all have to
learn. So, instead of the butt crack showing pants, they have
something else they pick out as long as their butt crack is hidden.
AND the clothing has to be within the family budget. -=-
Well, there *are* topless beaches and as an adult you can choose to
visit them. You can also choose to be topless in the privacy of your
home, purchase a house on the beach with private access, join a nudist
club that sponsors events, go on a clothing-optional cruise, etc.
There are opportunities available that allow you to pursue that
desire/interest. What options are you providing for your boys to
support their choice in clothing?
-=- So, those huge pants that hang are verboten. Is that squelching
their individuality? Yeah probably. But too bad. There are limits to
what an individual can be allowed to do. -=-
Yes, there are natural limits, but this is not one of them, it is a
limit you've created. Is there a way to meet your desire for
appropriate covering *and* their desire to wear baggy pants? In
previous discussions folks on this list have talked about finding
win-win solutions. That's really helped me thinking differently about
this stuff - it doesn't have to be a win/lose. There is usually a way
to meet everyone's needs.
Have you brainstormed about this issue? Have you discussed it with
them? Not talking at them, but truly asking for their input and being
receptive to what they say. Why do your boys prefer the big pants? It
is a style they like? Are they more comfortable? How does the
"squelching their individuality" feel to them? How does it affect your
relationship with them? Can they wear baggy pants at home? Can they
wear exercise shorts or boxers under the pants to make them less
revealing?
My kids prefer to wear as few clothes as possible. We have close
(nosy) neighbors and no outdoor privacy. For practical and legal
reasons, they need to be dressed appropriately when they're outside.
To make this less of an issue for them, I make sure they they have
choice and say-so over their inside clothing (or lack thereof). They
can wear pjs or just a t-shirt and underwear if they want. They can
put on their bathing suit - as my daughter did this evening - and wear
it around the house if they want. I'm happy to turn the heat up a
little to make it warmer if they are more comfortable spending their
time in shorts and going barefoot.
*are* natural, practical and/or legal limits. Those exist apart from
any "rules" we may impose on our children. If your goal is to see how
other parents have been successful at removing the "rules" then you
need to stop focusing on the limits. It's much more helpful to
concentrate on finding the yes.
-=- So my question is, where does it stop? -=-
Hmm... maybe it will help you see the underlying principal behind this
discussion if we reword that question, so it becomes "Where does
problem-solving stop?"
-=- If you have a 16 yr old daughter who wants to have sex on your
sofa in front of you 4 yr old is that OK? (I'm not being flip
seriously. I want to know if what I perceive being said is actually
what's being advocated.) -=-
Is it a real-life situation? Possibly, but unlikely. Are your children
really at risk of winding up in this scenario? If you need to focus on
this theoretical situation, then let's pretend this is a real
situation involving a real teenager. Ask yourself what tragically
unmet need the teen must be experiencing in order for this
circumstance to arise in the first place. What is missing from his
life? Do you think a teenager who desire this type of experience grew
up feeling safe, loved, secure, trusted, supported, valued, and
honored? Why is this teen driven to fulfill his needs in unsafe,
illegal, or inappropriate ways?
Sometimes people become frustrated about the apparent lack of limits
that families on this list place on their kids. They may stretch to
conceive of the most dramatic situation they can come up with, hoping
that finally someone will agree that yes, here is a situation where
you can "lay down the law" and set limits across the board. The
problem is that they are too busy pushing to find the "no" that they
get stuck. You can't find the "yes" when you're looking for the place
where "no" lives. It won't help you make the shift to a different
perspective.
A common refrain: "So it's okay to just let your kid jump off a cliff
or play in the road?"
Parents on this list have come up with ways to say yes even in these
and other "extreme" situations. However, it must get tiresome for them
to expend energy on coming up with solutions to problems that are
currently non-existent or extremely far-fetched, such as your question
about teenage sex in front of a sibling.
If you want to go from a place of limits and control to a place of
trust and creative problem-solving, know that focusing on rules or
unlikely situations is not going to help you make the shift. What
might help: taking a recent or current event, looking at it from
different angles, discovering your own issues (and owning them),
thinking about the principals behind unschooling (I listed a few at
the beginning) and choosing to try a different approach in the future.
Btw, I'm still learning, pushing my own comfort levels, questioning
the assumptions and conventional "wisdom" that resides in my head. I
used to look for the "no", too, but eventually I realized that it
wasn't helpful in the long run - it didn't get me any closer to where
I wanted to be. It only got me stuck in that old way of thinking.
~ Susan
7000.00. That is beyond our restrictions. We did not have the money,
the space, nor the family situation for leather. The answer was no.
Was that limiting him? Yep. But unless one of the boys has access to a
money fairy it's the limits we have to abide by. Our budget for our
new furniture was 2K not 7K. -=-
The ideas that I've found helpful in the many, many discussions on
this list about limits are:
Try to find a way to say yes - look for the "yes"
Avoid making arbitrary decisions
Validate your child's feelings
I'm still working on finding yes - I'm getting better at it. I wasn't
raised in a problem-solving family, so it's taken extra practice on my
part to find creative solutions and figure out how I can say "yes"
instead of "no". There are others here with more experience in seeing
the "yes" and can probably give suggestions.
One thing I've realized is that there are different ways of saying
yes. One way: "Yes, that would be a great sofa for when we get a
bigger house / in a few years when we have a bigger budget, etc."
Another way: "You certainly do have great taste! Yes, I really want
your opinion about which couch we should pick. What other neat sofas
do you see?" And another way: "Yes, red is a perfect color for our
room! Our budget is $2000. Do you see any red sofas for that price? I
know we can find one. Let's look together!"
Another example of yes: A really neat thing I saw at a recent
unschooling conference (Live and Learn) were kids climbing the walls -
literally! The buildings had these great rock-wall foundations that
went about ten feet high, with rocks sticking out at various angles.
They were so tempting to climb! I didn't see anyone tell their child
"no". What I *did* see were numerous parents standing with their
children, hands steadying them, as they helped them climb the walls
safely.
Speaking of climbing things, saying yes more has helped dh & I build
trust with our son. He is a fantastic climber and seeks experiences
that sometimes push our comfort level. We used to limit him, tell him
no, pull him down from ledges/walls/trees and generally stopped him
from doing things that (supposedly) aren't safe for kids to do.
Traditional parenting says we were doing the right thing, because kids
need boundaries and they don't know their limits, so we have to set
limits for them.
Through learning about RU we could see that there *IS* a different
approach, one that makes both practical and intuitive sense to us. We
weren't taking his abilities into account, we were being really
inflexible (as people who live by "rules" tend to be), we weren't
evaluating each situation independently, we weren't supporting his
interest.
Hindsight is 20/20 - we can see that our actions and unreasonableness
were just creating a barrier in our relationship and driving him to
meet his need in unsafe ways. The more we resisted and limited, the
more often he would sneak and do it anyways, without our presence. It
scared us. We knew limiting him even more or resorting to punishment
for not following our "rule" was not the answer. So we chose to take a
different route.
By supporting his interest we've found that he now *asks* us to be
present when he climbs - he trusts that we will support him, not scold
him. His also much safer - he's not seeking the experience without
help or taking every stolen - and potentially very dangerous -
opportunity he can find. He feels good about us being with him. He
knows that he can express an interest to climb something and we'll try
our best to make it happen.
We can see that when he's allowed to explore freely and safely he is
really good about knowing his own limitations and respecting them -
since we changed our approach (and attitude) he hasn't felt the need
to attempt truly dangerous climbs and he hasn't sustained more than a
few minor scratches. Finding the yes has eliminated the power
struggle, which was a source of unending frustration for all of us.
Now we can share in the joy of his interest rather than fear it. In
doing so we've have fostered an atmosphere of trust and collaboration.
-=- I told him our budget and showed him that was more. He's still
disappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the space in our
very small living room to make him happy? -=-
Help walk your child through the situation. Share the process you went
through in evaluating the options. Give them a chance to share their
thoughts. "Yes, let's think about that. We could keep the old sofa and
save up for this one, but it would probably take us about two years.
The old sofa is in pretty bad shape, I don't think it would last that
long. I'd rather save up for our vacation to Hawaii / a playstation2 /
that really cool swingset you saw last week. What do you think? Do you
have any ideas?"
If you only have $2k to spend on a sofa that's a practical limit.
Sometimes we bump up against practical limits. The point others are
trying to make is that we don't need to *create* inflexible rules or
impose limits arbitrarily. If we look hard enough at almost any
situation, we can usually see a gray area - in most cases the
situation is not as black/white or win/lose as we may first think. In
situations where we do bump up against natural limits, it becomes
really important to look for alternatives that allow you to say "yes"
and to validate your child's experience.
It's *okay* for your son to be disappointed about not getting the sofa
he desired. Sometimes I was uncomfortable when I sensed feelings of
anger, disappointment, sadness, etc., in my kids. I don't want them to
feel that way but often the methods I used were not helpful. Denying
the feeling or telling a child to "get over it" doesn't make it go
away - but it can lead to them feeling worse - only increasing their
feelings of anger, frustration, or sadness because no one is
listening to them or trying to understand how they feel. Even if I
*did* understand, they weren't hearing that message when I told them
"sorry, that's the way it is".
By acknowledging their feelings, I can help them work through it,
making it becomes easier for them to let go. It also lets them know
that I care - that what they're feeling matters to me. I used to be
scared of doing this - I thought that focusing on their feelings would
only intensify them or cause them to linger on it longer. But the
opposite is true. When I ignored my children's disappointment over
something they would act out in other ways or stew over their feelings
for hours. They were seeking acknowledgment and release and I was
withholding it. I also realized how *I* felt when someone I cared
about brushed my feelings aside. Imagine if your husband or friend
told you (even kindly) to just get over it or they ignored your
feelings. It can be hurtful and frustrating.
Different approaches work for different kids; what may be soothing and
helpful to my kids may not be effective with yours, but you can use
feedback from your kids and the particulars of the situation to
develop some tools for helping them cope with intense feelings. Try to
validate their concern/desire, let them know you've heard them, and
create an opportunity for them to share details. You can grant their
wish through imagination or take the silly route to get them laughing.
For example:
Wow, you really want to get that big red sectional, don't you?
You're feeling disappointed that we can't afford it right now.
What do you like best about it?
I like the color, too. And it does have enough room for all of us!
In fact, it may even hold a giraffe and a few kangaroos, too! How about that?
What kind of potion could we use to make it small enough to fit into our house?
I wish I could make this money grow like those flowers you planted,
then we'd have enough to get that couch! How cool would that be?
Too bad it won't fit in our house right now. We should take a picture
of it for our wish book, don't you think?
I can see you really like that red color. You know, I bet we can find
a red ottoman!
-=- Clothing: I do not..will not allow my sons to run about with their
pubic area hanging out of their pants. <snip> I would love to be
topless on our beach but that's against the law. It would make me
happy. I'm still not allowed. Those are lessons that we all have to
learn. So, instead of the butt crack showing pants, they have
something else they pick out as long as their butt crack is hidden.
AND the clothing has to be within the family budget. -=-
Well, there *are* topless beaches and as an adult you can choose to
visit them. You can also choose to be topless in the privacy of your
home, purchase a house on the beach with private access, join a nudist
club that sponsors events, go on a clothing-optional cruise, etc.
There are opportunities available that allow you to pursue that
desire/interest. What options are you providing for your boys to
support their choice in clothing?
-=- So, those huge pants that hang are verboten. Is that squelching
their individuality? Yeah probably. But too bad. There are limits to
what an individual can be allowed to do. -=-
Yes, there are natural limits, but this is not one of them, it is a
limit you've created. Is there a way to meet your desire for
appropriate covering *and* their desire to wear baggy pants? In
previous discussions folks on this list have talked about finding
win-win solutions. That's really helped me thinking differently about
this stuff - it doesn't have to be a win/lose. There is usually a way
to meet everyone's needs.
Have you brainstormed about this issue? Have you discussed it with
them? Not talking at them, but truly asking for their input and being
receptive to what they say. Why do your boys prefer the big pants? It
is a style they like? Are they more comfortable? How does the
"squelching their individuality" feel to them? How does it affect your
relationship with them? Can they wear baggy pants at home? Can they
wear exercise shorts or boxers under the pants to make them less
revealing?
My kids prefer to wear as few clothes as possible. We have close
(nosy) neighbors and no outdoor privacy. For practical and legal
reasons, they need to be dressed appropriately when they're outside.
To make this less of an issue for them, I make sure they they have
choice and say-so over their inside clothing (or lack thereof). They
can wear pjs or just a t-shirt and underwear if they want. They can
put on their bathing suit - as my daughter did this evening - and wear
it around the house if they want. I'm happy to turn the heat up a
little to make it warmer if they are more comfortable spending their
time in shorts and going barefoot.
> I am getting the impression still that there should be no limits onI think you're still seeing this as "all or none" situation. There
> children. I'm sure I'm missing something but I have yet to hear the loudest
> voices on here show any limits they have on their children.
*are* natural, practical and/or legal limits. Those exist apart from
any "rules" we may impose on our children. If your goal is to see how
other parents have been successful at removing the "rules" then you
need to stop focusing on the limits. It's much more helpful to
concentrate on finding the yes.
-=- So my question is, where does it stop? -=-
Hmm... maybe it will help you see the underlying principal behind this
discussion if we reword that question, so it becomes "Where does
problem-solving stop?"
-=- If you have a 16 yr old daughter who wants to have sex on your
sofa in front of you 4 yr old is that OK? (I'm not being flip
seriously. I want to know if what I perceive being said is actually
what's being advocated.) -=-
Is it a real-life situation? Possibly, but unlikely. Are your children
really at risk of winding up in this scenario? If you need to focus on
this theoretical situation, then let's pretend this is a real
situation involving a real teenager. Ask yourself what tragically
unmet need the teen must be experiencing in order for this
circumstance to arise in the first place. What is missing from his
life? Do you think a teenager who desire this type of experience grew
up feeling safe, loved, secure, trusted, supported, valued, and
honored? Why is this teen driven to fulfill his needs in unsafe,
illegal, or inappropriate ways?
Sometimes people become frustrated about the apparent lack of limits
that families on this list place on their kids. They may stretch to
conceive of the most dramatic situation they can come up with, hoping
that finally someone will agree that yes, here is a situation where
you can "lay down the law" and set limits across the board. The
problem is that they are too busy pushing to find the "no" that they
get stuck. You can't find the "yes" when you're looking for the place
where "no" lives. It won't help you make the shift to a different
perspective.
A common refrain: "So it's okay to just let your kid jump off a cliff
or play in the road?"
Parents on this list have come up with ways to say yes even in these
and other "extreme" situations. However, it must get tiresome for them
to expend energy on coming up with solutions to problems that are
currently non-existent or extremely far-fetched, such as your question
about teenage sex in front of a sibling.
If you want to go from a place of limits and control to a place of
trust and creative problem-solving, know that focusing on rules or
unlikely situations is not going to help you make the shift. What
might help: taking a recent or current event, looking at it from
different angles, discovering your own issues (and owning them),
thinking about the principals behind unschooling (I listed a few at
the beginning) and choosing to try a different approach in the future.
Btw, I'm still learning, pushing my own comfort levels, questioning
the assumptions and conventional "wisdom" that resides in my head. I
used to look for the "no", too, but eventually I realized that it
wasn't helpful in the long run - it didn't get me any closer to where
I wanted to be. It only got me stuck in that old way of thinking.
~ Susan
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 5, 2007, at 3:41 AM, Susan wrote:
Parents assume that they can set down a rule and have their kids
follow. (And punish when the don't.)
What rules do is set up a barrier between what a child wants and the
child.
If there's an obstacle between what an adult wants and the adult, do
we admire the one who shrugs and decides the obstacle placer is right
and he really shouldn't try to do that? Or do we admire the fortitude
to get around it?
Children are the same as adults in that respect. Though some kids
*will* give up trying, it doesn't mean they give up wanting. (How do
you feel when someone has said no to what you want when their no
doesn't make sense to you? Do you feel like going to them for further
help?*Is* that what you want for your relationship with your
children?) But some kids aren't beaten down and what rules do is
create an opportunity to be clever. (Again, something we'd cheer in a
movie as well as real life!) They can figure out a way around it.
They can batter at it (constantly ask.)
If you read stories of what the adults here did about their own
parents arbitrary rules, you'd know rules don't work! ;-)
How do you know your sons don't have a set of pants that they change
into once they're out of your sight? (If the pants aren't in your
budget, they could have gotten some hand me downs from a friend.)
The truth is you don't know. *Do* you want to not know what your kids
are up to when they're away? That's the type of relationship you're
fostering with arbitrary rules.
My daughter *does* come to me with problems because she knows she can
trust me to help her. *Not* just help her with what I agree with.
*Help* her. And since she knows my goal *is* to help her, she isn't
afraid to come to me and she takes seriously what I say about how to
do things in a safe way. She also takes her own safety seriously
since she isn't trying to prove herself against arbitrary rules.
Right now the pants thing isn't a big deal. If they sneak, no one
will get hurt by their experimenting. But at some point they *will*
want to do risky things. If they know it's likely you'll say no, they
aren't going to come to you. They will do it behind your back and it
will very likely be unsafe.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> By supporting his interest we've found that he now *asks* us to beThis is a really important point.
> present when he climbs - he trusts that we will support him, not scold
> him. His also much safer - he's not seeking the experience without
> help or taking every stolen - and potentially very dangerous -
> opportunity he can find. He feels good about us being with him. He
> knows that he can express an interest to climb something and we'll try
> our best to make it happen.
Parents assume that they can set down a rule and have their kids
follow. (And punish when the don't.)
What rules do is set up a barrier between what a child wants and the
child.
If there's an obstacle between what an adult wants and the adult, do
we admire the one who shrugs and decides the obstacle placer is right
and he really shouldn't try to do that? Or do we admire the fortitude
to get around it?
Children are the same as adults in that respect. Though some kids
*will* give up trying, it doesn't mean they give up wanting. (How do
you feel when someone has said no to what you want when their no
doesn't make sense to you? Do you feel like going to them for further
help?*Is* that what you want for your relationship with your
children?) But some kids aren't beaten down and what rules do is
create an opportunity to be clever. (Again, something we'd cheer in a
movie as well as real life!) They can figure out a way around it.
They can batter at it (constantly ask.)
If you read stories of what the adults here did about their own
parents arbitrary rules, you'd know rules don't work! ;-)
How do you know your sons don't have a set of pants that they change
into once they're out of your sight? (If the pants aren't in your
budget, they could have gotten some hand me downs from a friend.)
The truth is you don't know. *Do* you want to not know what your kids
are up to when they're away? That's the type of relationship you're
fostering with arbitrary rules.
My daughter *does* come to me with problems because she knows she can
trust me to help her. *Not* just help her with what I agree with.
*Help* her. And since she knows my goal *is* to help her, she isn't
afraid to come to me and she takes seriously what I say about how to
do things in a safe way. She also takes her own safety seriously
since she isn't trying to prove herself against arbitrary rules.
Right now the pants thing isn't a big deal. If they sneak, no one
will get hurt by their experimenting. But at some point they *will*
want to do risky things. If they know it's likely you'll say no, they
aren't going to come to you. They will do it behind your back and it
will very likely be unsafe.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jesse Suckow Crowell
Wow, Susan! What a great post.
This is exactly what *I* needed :) It's what I've been trying in my
bungling fashion to achieve, but really clarifies why I want to be doing
this. thanks!
Jess
This is exactly what *I* needed :) It's what I've been trying in my
bungling fashion to achieve, but really clarifies why I want to be doing
this. thanks!
Jess
On 10/5/07, Susan <SusanYvonne@...> wrote:
>
> -=- For example, one son wanted a red leather sectional sofa priced at
> 7000.00. That is beyond our restrictions. We did not have the money,
> the space, nor the family situation for leather. The answer was no.
> Was that limiting him? Yep. But unless one of the boys has access to a
> money fairy it's the limits we have to abide by. Our budget for our
> new furniture was 2K not 7K. -=-
>
> The ideas that I've found helpful in the many, many discussions on
> this list about limits are:
>
> Try to find a way to say yes - look for the "yes"
> Avoid making arbitrary decisions
> Validate your child's feelings
>
> I'm still working on finding yes - I'm getting better at it. I wasn't
> raised in a problem-solving family, so it's taken extra practice on my
> part to find creative solutions and figure out how I can say "yes"
> instead of "no". There are others here with more experience in seeing
> the "yes" and can probably give suggestions.
>
> One thing I've realized is that there are different ways of saying
> yes. One way: "Yes, that would be a great sofa for when we get a
> bigger house / in a few years when we have a bigger budget, etc."
> Another way: "You certainly do have great taste! Yes, I really want
> your opinion about which couch we should pick. What other neat sofas
> do you see?" And another way: "Yes, red is a perfect color for our
> room! Our budget is $2000. Do you see any red sofas for that price? I
> know we can find one. Let's look together!"
>
> Another example of yes: A really neat thing I saw at a recent
> unschooling conference (Live and Learn) were kids climbing the walls -
> literally! The buildings had these great rock-wall foundations that
> went about ten feet high, with rocks sticking out at various angles.
> They were so tempting to climb! I didn't see anyone tell their child
> "no". What I *did* see were numerous parents standing with their
> children, hands steadying them, as they helped them climb the walls
> safely.
>
> Speaking of climbing things, saying yes more has helped dh & I build
> trust with our son. He is a fantastic climber and seeks experiences
> that sometimes push our comfort level. We used to limit him, tell him
> no, pull him down from ledges/walls/trees and generally stopped him
> from doing things that (supposedly) aren't safe for kids to do.
> Traditional parenting says we were doing the right thing, because kids
> need boundaries and they don't know their limits, so we have to set
> limits for them.
>
> Through learning about RU we could see that there *IS* a different
> approach, one that makes both practical and intuitive sense to us. We
> weren't taking his abilities into account, we were being really
> inflexible (as people who live by "rules" tend to be), we weren't
> evaluating each situation independently, we weren't supporting his
> interest.
>
> Hindsight is 20/20 - we can see that our actions and unreasonableness
> were just creating a barrier in our relationship and driving him to
> meet his need in unsafe ways. The more we resisted and limited, the
> more often he would sneak and do it anyways, without our presence. It
> scared us. We knew limiting him even more or resorting to punishment
> for not following our "rule" was not the answer. So we chose to take a
> different route.
>
> By supporting his interest we've found that he now *asks* us to be
> present when he climbs - he trusts that we will support him, not scold
> him. His also much safer - he's not seeking the experience without
> help or taking every stolen - and potentially very dangerous -
> opportunity he can find. He feels good about us being with him. He
> knows that he can express an interest to climb something and we'll try
> our best to make it happen.
>
> We can see that when he's allowed to explore freely and safely he is
> really good about knowing his own limitations and respecting them -
> since we changed our approach (and attitude) he hasn't felt the need
> to attempt truly dangerous climbs and he hasn't sustained more than a
> few minor scratches. Finding the yes has eliminated the power
> struggle, which was a source of unending frustration for all of us.
> Now we can share in the joy of his interest rather than fear it. In
> doing so we've have fostered an atmosphere of trust and collaboration.
>
> -=- I told him our budget and showed him that was more. He's still
> disappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the space in our
> very small living room to make him happy? -=-
>
> Help walk your child through the situation. Share the process you went
> through in evaluating the options. Give them a chance to share their
> thoughts. "Yes, let's think about that. We could keep the old sofa and
> save up for this one, but it would probably take us about two years.
> The old sofa is in pretty bad shape, I don't think it would last that
> long. I'd rather save up for our vacation to Hawaii / a playstation2 /
> that really cool swingset you saw last week. What do you think? Do you
> have any ideas?"
>
> If you only have $2k to spend on a sofa that's a practical limit.
> Sometimes we bump up against practical limits. The point others are
> trying to make is that we don't need to *create* inflexible rules or
> impose limits arbitrarily. If we look hard enough at almost any
> situation, we can usually see a gray area - in most cases the
> situation is not as black/white or win/lose as we may first think. In
> situations where we do bump up against natural limits, it becomes
> really important to look for alternatives that allow you to say "yes"
> and to validate your child's experience.
>
> It's *okay* for your son to be disappointed about not getting the sofa
> he desired. Sometimes I was uncomfortable when I sensed feelings of
> anger, disappointment, sadness, etc., in my kids. I don't want them to
> feel that way but often the methods I used were not helpful. Denying
> the feeling or telling a child to "get over it" doesn't make it go
> away - but it can lead to them feeling worse - only increasing their
> feelings of anger, frustration, or sadness because no one is
> listening to them or trying to understand how they feel. Even if I
> *did* understand, they weren't hearing that message when I told them
> "sorry, that's the way it is".
>
> By acknowledging their feelings, I can help them work through it,
> making it becomes easier for them to let go. It also lets them know
> that I care - that what they're feeling matters to me. I used to be
> scared of doing this - I thought that focusing on their feelings would
> only intensify them or cause them to linger on it longer. But the
> opposite is true. When I ignored my children's disappointment over
> something they would act out in other ways or stew over their feelings
> for hours. They were seeking acknowledgment and release and I was
> withholding it. I also realized how *I* felt when someone I cared
> about brushed my feelings aside. Imagine if your husband or friend
> told you (even kindly) to just get over it or they ignored your
> feelings. It can be hurtful and frustrating.
>
> Different approaches work for different kids; what may be soothing and
> helpful to my kids may not be effective with yours, but you can use
> feedback from your kids and the particulars of the situation to
> develop some tools for helping them cope with intense feelings. Try to
> validate their concern/desire, let them know you've heard them, and
> create an opportunity for them to share details. You can grant their
> wish through imagination or take the silly route to get them laughing.
> For example:
>
> Wow, you really want to get that big red sectional, don't you?
> You're feeling disappointed that we can't afford it right now.
> What do you like best about it?
> I like the color, too. And it does have enough room for all of us!
> In fact, it may even hold a giraffe and a few kangaroos, too! How about
> that?
> What kind of potion could we use to make it small enough to fit into our
> house?
> I wish I could make this money grow like those flowers you planted,
> then we'd have enough to get that couch! How cool would that be?
> Too bad it won't fit in our house right now. We should take a picture
> of it for our wish book, don't you think?
> I can see you really like that red color. You know, I bet we can find
> a red ottoman!
>
> -=- Clothing: I do not..will not allow my sons to run about with their
> pubic area hanging out of their pants. <snip> I would love to be
> topless on our beach but that's against the law. It would make me
> happy. I'm still not allowed. Those are lessons that we all have to
> learn. So, instead of the butt crack showing pants, they have
> something else they pick out as long as their butt crack is hidden.
> AND the clothing has to be within the family budget. -=-
>
> Well, there *are* topless beaches and as an adult you can choose to
> visit them. You can also choose to be topless in the privacy of your
> home, purchase a house on the beach with private access, join a nudist
> club that sponsors events, go on a clothing-optional cruise, etc.
> There are opportunities available that allow you to pursue that
> desire/interest. What options are you providing for your boys to
> support their choice in clothing?
>
> -=- So, those huge pants that hang are verboten. Is that squelching
> their individuality? Yeah probably. But too bad. There are limits to
> what an individual can be allowed to do. -=-
>
> Yes, there are natural limits, but this is not one of them, it is a
> limit you've created. Is there a way to meet your desire for
> appropriate covering *and* their desire to wear baggy pants? In
> previous discussions folks on this list have talked about finding
> win-win solutions. That's really helped me thinking differently about
> this stuff - it doesn't have to be a win/lose. There is usually a way
> to meet everyone's needs.
>
> Have you brainstormed about this issue? Have you discussed it with
> them? Not talking at them, but truly asking for their input and being
> receptive to what they say. Why do your boys prefer the big pants? It
> is a style they like? Are they more comfortable? How does the
> "squelching their individuality" feel to them? How does it affect your
> relationship with them? Can they wear baggy pants at home? Can they
> wear exercise shorts or boxers under the pants to make them less
> revealing?
>
> My kids prefer to wear as few clothes as possible. We have close
> (nosy) neighbors and no outdoor privacy. For practical and legal
> reasons, they need to be dressed appropriately when they're outside.
> To make this less of an issue for them, I make sure they they have
> choice and say-so over their inside clothing (or lack thereof). They
> can wear pjs or just a t-shirt and underwear if they want. They can
> put on their bathing suit - as my daughter did this evening - and wear
> it around the house if they want. I'm happy to turn the heat up a
> little to make it warmer if they are more comfortable spending their
> time in shorts and going barefoot.
>
> > I am getting the impression still that there should be no limits on
> > children. I'm sure I'm missing something but I have yet to hear the
> loudest
> > voices on here show any limits they have on their children.
>
> I think you're still seeing this as "all or none" situation. There
> *are* natural, practical and/or legal limits. Those exist apart from
> any "rules" we may impose on our children. If your goal is to see how
> other parents have been successful at removing the "rules" then you
> need to stop focusing on the limits. It's much more helpful to
> concentrate on finding the yes.
>
> -=- So my question is, where does it stop? -=-
>
> Hmm... maybe it will help you see the underlying principal behind this
> discussion if we reword that question, so it becomes "Where does
> problem-solving stop?"
>
> -=- If you have a 16 yr old daughter who wants to have sex on your
> sofa in front of you 4 yr old is that OK? (I'm not being flip
> seriously. I want to know if what I perceive being said is actually
> what's being advocated.) -=-
>
> Is it a real-life situation? Possibly, but unlikely. Are your children
> really at risk of winding up in this scenario? If you need to focus on
> this theoretical situation, then let's pretend this is a real
> situation involving a real teenager. Ask yourself what tragically
> unmet need the teen must be experiencing in order for this
> circumstance to arise in the first place. What is missing from his
> life? Do you think a teenager who desire this type of experience grew
> up feeling safe, loved, secure, trusted, supported, valued, and
> honored? Why is this teen driven to fulfill his needs in unsafe,
> illegal, or inappropriate ways?
>
> Sometimes people become frustrated about the apparent lack of limits
> that families on this list place on their kids. They may stretch to
> conceive of the most dramatic situation they can come up with, hoping
> that finally someone will agree that yes, here is a situation where
> you can "lay down the law" and set limits across the board. The
> problem is that they are too busy pushing to find the "no" that they
> get stuck. You can't find the "yes" when you're looking for the place
> where "no" lives. It won't help you make the shift to a different
> perspective.
>
> A common refrain: "So it's okay to just let your kid jump off a cliff
> or play in the road?"
>
> Parents on this list have come up with ways to say yes even in these
> and other "extreme" situations. However, it must get tiresome for them
> to expend energy on coming up with solutions to problems that are
> currently non-existent or extremely far-fetched, such as your question
> about teenage sex in front of a sibling.
>
> If you want to go from a place of limits and control to a place of
> trust and creative problem-solving, know that focusing on rules or
> unlikely situations is not going to help you make the shift. What
> might help: taking a recent or current event, looking at it from
> different angles, discovering your own issues (and owning them),
> thinking about the principals behind unschooling (I listed a few at
> the beginning) and choosing to try a different approach in the future.
>
> Btw, I'm still learning, pushing my own comfort levels, questioning
> the assumptions and conventional "wisdom" that resides in my head. I
> used to look for the "no", too, but eventually I realized that it
> wasn't helpful in the long run - it didn't get me any closer to where
> I wanted to be. It only got me stuck in that old way of thinking.
>
> ~ Susan
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carenkh
--- In [email protected], Susan <SusanYvonne@...> wrote:
that families on this list place on their kids. They may stretch to
conceive of the most dramatic situation they can come up with, hoping
that finally someone will agree that yes, here is a situation where
you can "lay down the law" and set limits across the board. The
problem is that they are too busy pushing to find the "no" that they
get stuck. You can't find the "yes" when you're looking for the place
where "no" lives. It won't help you make the shift to a different
perspective.-=-
I wanted to pull this paragraph out, especially the highlighted part -
it's very well said!
Caren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>-=-Sometimes people become frustrated about the apparent lack of limits
that families on this list place on their kids. They may stretch to
conceive of the most dramatic situation they can come up with, hoping
that finally someone will agree that yes, here is a situation where
you can "lay down the law" and set limits across the board. The
problem is that they are too busy pushing to find the "no" that they
get stuck. You can't find the "yes" when you're looking for the place
where "no" lives. It won't help you make the shift to a different
perspective.-=-
I wanted to pull this paragraph out, especially the highlighted part -
it's very well said!
Caren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
Well I know they don't because they are 11 and 9 and they aren't ever out of
my sight. One of the downsides to being home with me all the time is they
are with me all the time.
I hear what is being said now about no and yes. I don't know that I
completely buy that all kids raised this way will *never* want to do
something that is completely inappropriate, ie illegal drugs, underage
drinking etc...but maybe this is OK with you all and you allow it. I don't
know.
FWIW the sofa thing I did validate Liam's feelings because the sofa I wanted
was 9K and white leather and I couldn't get it either. We talked about how
nice it would be but we didn't have the space nor the money for either one.
He was disappointed but I was too. He didn't cry over it and I don't
believe it left a lasting scar. But in the end those are the limits we
have, time, space and money and I don't have control over those.
RE: pants. It's not going to happen. I'm not allowing my children to dress
like gang members because they think it might be cool. That probably makes
me a bad parent but that's the way it is. I discussed the choices they were
thinking they'd like to make and asked them what kind of things they wanted
people to think about them when they saw them. They both said they didn't
want people to think they were bad kids and came to baggy shorts which hang
on their waists as a compromise. I would however have held the line had
they fought me. Yeah that is probably wrong in your (the plural you) eyes,
but in the end, these kids are my responsibility to raise and I'm not going
to allow them to glorify criminal behavior simply because they see it as
popular culture. (which btw was a passing fancy and they were quick to
change to something different so I don't know that it was that
overwhelmingly important to them.) I'm not going to let my 3 yr old dress
like pedophile bait when she's 8 either. There are limits in this world and
some of them are artificially constructed. Little girls shouldn't be
wearing pants that say "taste me" on the butt. Might work in your family,
it's not going to work here.
Re: sex on the couch...you are right. I'm trying to find somewhere where
someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavior is OK.
I don't know that I see that as correct. And as I said before I don't
believe that because you raise your child with no limits that they will
automatically become kind sweet wonderful people. There have to be
instances where a child raised to do whatever whenever has gone wrong but I
doubt anyone will admit to it. Still, this discussion has been good for
me. It has shown me how to switch my thinking. I am getting there. This
unlearning stuff is hard work! =)
I do have to admit to something. For the last 4 days I have said No only 2
times. Once was because I physically could not take the kids anywhere (I
have fibromyalgia, Systemic Lupus and Sjogren's Syndrome) and I am having a
flare. The boys didn't realize how sick I felt so I told them I couldn't do
it now, but we would do later when I was better. And the other was to make
brown rice for dinner last night but it takes over an hour and we didn't
have time to do it so I'm making it today. The boys have not had one fight
in 4 days. That's amazing. I asked my son (the 11 yr old) about it and he
said it was because he didn't feel the stress of having to do school and he
felt less mad. So that's a good thing.
FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was uncomfortable
with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop telling him
things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel like you
didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so I could
give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Not my part
just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I do there?
Thanks ladies...I continue to learn and change a little each day.
Karen
my sight. One of the downsides to being home with me all the time is they
are with me all the time.
I hear what is being said now about no and yes. I don't know that I
completely buy that all kids raised this way will *never* want to do
something that is completely inappropriate, ie illegal drugs, underage
drinking etc...but maybe this is OK with you all and you allow it. I don't
know.
FWIW the sofa thing I did validate Liam's feelings because the sofa I wanted
was 9K and white leather and I couldn't get it either. We talked about how
nice it would be but we didn't have the space nor the money for either one.
He was disappointed but I was too. He didn't cry over it and I don't
believe it left a lasting scar. But in the end those are the limits we
have, time, space and money and I don't have control over those.
RE: pants. It's not going to happen. I'm not allowing my children to dress
like gang members because they think it might be cool. That probably makes
me a bad parent but that's the way it is. I discussed the choices they were
thinking they'd like to make and asked them what kind of things they wanted
people to think about them when they saw them. They both said they didn't
want people to think they were bad kids and came to baggy shorts which hang
on their waists as a compromise. I would however have held the line had
they fought me. Yeah that is probably wrong in your (the plural you) eyes,
but in the end, these kids are my responsibility to raise and I'm not going
to allow them to glorify criminal behavior simply because they see it as
popular culture. (which btw was a passing fancy and they were quick to
change to something different so I don't know that it was that
overwhelmingly important to them.) I'm not going to let my 3 yr old dress
like pedophile bait when she's 8 either. There are limits in this world and
some of them are artificially constructed. Little girls shouldn't be
wearing pants that say "taste me" on the butt. Might work in your family,
it's not going to work here.
Re: sex on the couch...you are right. I'm trying to find somewhere where
someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavior is OK.
I don't know that I see that as correct. And as I said before I don't
believe that because you raise your child with no limits that they will
automatically become kind sweet wonderful people. There have to be
instances where a child raised to do whatever whenever has gone wrong but I
doubt anyone will admit to it. Still, this discussion has been good for
me. It has shown me how to switch my thinking. I am getting there. This
unlearning stuff is hard work! =)
I do have to admit to something. For the last 4 days I have said No only 2
times. Once was because I physically could not take the kids anywhere (I
have fibromyalgia, Systemic Lupus and Sjogren's Syndrome) and I am having a
flare. The boys didn't realize how sick I felt so I told them I couldn't do
it now, but we would do later when I was better. And the other was to make
brown rice for dinner last night but it takes over an hour and we didn't
have time to do it so I'm making it today. The boys have not had one fight
in 4 days. That's amazing. I asked my son (the 11 yr old) about it and he
said it was because he didn't feel the stress of having to do school and he
felt less mad. So that's a good thing.
FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was uncomfortable
with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop telling him
things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel like you
didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so I could
give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Not my part
just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I do there?
Thanks ladies...I continue to learn and change a little each day.
Karen
On 10/5/07, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> Right now the pants thing isn't a big deal. If they sneak, no one
> will get hurt by their experimenting. But at some point they *will*
> want to do risky things. If they know it's likely you'll say no, they
> aren't going to come to you. They will do it behind your back and it
> will very likely be unsafe.
>
> Joyce
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~-=-Sometimes people become frustrated about the apparent lack of limits
that families on this list place on their kids. They may stretch to
conceive of the most dramatic situation they can come up with, hoping
that finally someone will agree that yes, here is a situation where
you can "lay down the law" and set limits across the board. The
problem is that they are too busy pushing to find the "no" that they
get stuck. You can't find the "yes" when you're looking for the place
where "no" lives. It won't help you make the shift to a different
perspective.-=-~~
This whole post was really great Susan. Can I quote you at my blog?
That's why the whole "sex on the couch" situation is so amusing to me.
Other scenarios people paint are situations that they'd probably NEVER
come across in real life because a healthy, happy child would never
WANT to do those things.
I have two teens in the house, one with a serious girlfriend and I
can't imagine in my wildest dreams they would want to have sex in
front of anyone! Much less on my living room couch.
Let's just say they DID. Why? What would motivate a person to want
that? What would the discussion about everyone else's preference be at
that point?
When you think about it, that is just plain silliness.
This is why theoretical situations don't work well for discussion. If
ANY of us had free children that wanted something like this, then we
could reasonably discuss it. But we don't. So apparently freedom and
partnering with children don't lead to such situations.
Doesn't surprise me.
As to clothing being "gang" related. Baloney! Baggy pants were the
norm for fashion for many years. Whatever. It sounds to me like a
parent overly worried about what other people in society think. I
worry more about how my kids feel. Baggy pants aren't hurting anyone,
least of all the kid that wears them. If a person's actions are
robbing anyone else of their freedoms, what is the big deal?
I think unschooling requires a thick skin and a willingness to
advocate for our children in the face of a society that would mold and
shape them for it's own purposes. Uh-uh. Not here.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
that families on this list place on their kids. They may stretch to
conceive of the most dramatic situation they can come up with, hoping
that finally someone will agree that yes, here is a situation where
you can "lay down the law" and set limits across the board. The
problem is that they are too busy pushing to find the "no" that they
get stuck. You can't find the "yes" when you're looking for the place
where "no" lives. It won't help you make the shift to a different
perspective.-=-~~
This whole post was really great Susan. Can I quote you at my blog?
That's why the whole "sex on the couch" situation is so amusing to me.
Other scenarios people paint are situations that they'd probably NEVER
come across in real life because a healthy, happy child would never
WANT to do those things.
I have two teens in the house, one with a serious girlfriend and I
can't imagine in my wildest dreams they would want to have sex in
front of anyone! Much less on my living room couch.
Let's just say they DID. Why? What would motivate a person to want
that? What would the discussion about everyone else's preference be at
that point?
When you think about it, that is just plain silliness.
This is why theoretical situations don't work well for discussion. If
ANY of us had free children that wanted something like this, then we
could reasonably discuss it. But we don't. So apparently freedom and
partnering with children don't lead to such situations.
Doesn't surprise me.
As to clothing being "gang" related. Baloney! Baggy pants were the
norm for fashion for many years. Whatever. It sounds to me like a
parent overly worried about what other people in society think. I
worry more about how my kids feel. Baggy pants aren't hurting anyone,
least of all the kid that wears them. If a person's actions are
robbing anyone else of their freedoms, what is the big deal?
I think unschooling requires a thick skin and a willingness to
advocate for our children in the face of a society that would mold and
shape them for it's own purposes. Uh-uh. Not here.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Karen Swanay
Baloney back. We aren't talking about baggy here we are talking about butt
crack showing and underwear showing and in older kids pubic hair showing as
they walk about. And yes, I care what others think. This is a society. We
have rules and expectations. A neighbor of mine a couple of years ago was
very "whatever they want to do" with her teens. Her son came home with the
word "CRIMINAL" tattooed across his FOREHEAD! Nice. That had to be lasered
off to the tune of 2300.00. Idiot kid. He said he did it because he
thought it would be funny. Funny indeed.
I guess I'm coming to the point here where I'm going to "take what I want
and leave the rest" because I am simply not going to allow certain things.
No smoking. No underage drinking. No Drinking and driving. No "if it
feels good do it" because that's what they want to do. Kids need guidance.
They need help seeing how decisions they make today impact tomorrow. And my
kids are not going to be tripping over their pants. They will not be
hanging around with pubic hair poking out of the tops of their jeans because
the tops of their jeans are just barely hiding their penis. (Of course they
are 11 and 9 so it's not an issue atm but it will be eventually.) They will
be protected from poor decision making if that's an issue. Right now they
are pretty good so it's not. But I have to look down the road and see what
might be. That's a parent's job. Not to abdicate.
I'm not telling anyone on here what to do with their kids but I am feeling
like I'm being told I'm a bad parent because I won't allow mine to do
whatever they want whenever they want. And FTR, what we do as a family
directly impacts my husband's career. If one of us goes wrong or makes the
wrong impression, it can mean no promotions for him which means getting
kicked out. Perhaps it's our life and our community that is different than
everyone else's...hippy free-love, everything is OK, no rules, no boundries
is an anthema here. Might work for you all but isn't appropriate here. I
have to consider all aspects of decisions that are made and one of those is
how things look. You don't have to like it, but it's the way we live at
least for the next 7 yrs then we can retire and life will be our own.
Karen
crack showing and underwear showing and in older kids pubic hair showing as
they walk about. And yes, I care what others think. This is a society. We
have rules and expectations. A neighbor of mine a couple of years ago was
very "whatever they want to do" with her teens. Her son came home with the
word "CRIMINAL" tattooed across his FOREHEAD! Nice. That had to be lasered
off to the tune of 2300.00. Idiot kid. He said he did it because he
thought it would be funny. Funny indeed.
I guess I'm coming to the point here where I'm going to "take what I want
and leave the rest" because I am simply not going to allow certain things.
No smoking. No underage drinking. No Drinking and driving. No "if it
feels good do it" because that's what they want to do. Kids need guidance.
They need help seeing how decisions they make today impact tomorrow. And my
kids are not going to be tripping over their pants. They will not be
hanging around with pubic hair poking out of the tops of their jeans because
the tops of their jeans are just barely hiding their penis. (Of course they
are 11 and 9 so it's not an issue atm but it will be eventually.) They will
be protected from poor decision making if that's an issue. Right now they
are pretty good so it's not. But I have to look down the road and see what
might be. That's a parent's job. Not to abdicate.
I'm not telling anyone on here what to do with their kids but I am feeling
like I'm being told I'm a bad parent because I won't allow mine to do
whatever they want whenever they want. And FTR, what we do as a family
directly impacts my husband's career. If one of us goes wrong or makes the
wrong impression, it can mean no promotions for him which means getting
kicked out. Perhaps it's our life and our community that is different than
everyone else's...hippy free-love, everything is OK, no rules, no boundries
is an anthema here. Might work for you all but isn't appropriate here. I
have to consider all aspects of decisions that are made and one of those is
how things look. You don't have to like it, but it's the way we live at
least for the next 7 yrs then we can retire and life will be our own.
Karen
On 10/5/07, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> As to clothing being "gang" related. Baloney! Baggy pants were the
> norm for fashion for many years. Whatever. It sounds to me like a
> parent overly worried about what other people in society think. I
> worry more about how my kids feel. Baggy pants aren't hurting anyone,
> least of all the kid that wears them. If a person's actions are
> robbing anyone else of their freedoms, what is the big deal?
>
> I think unschooling requires a thick skin and a willingness to
> advocate for our children in the face of a society that would mold and
> shape them for it's own purposes. Uh-uh. Not here.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
circumstances of your family?. Its not necessary to think about
these sorts of limits as something *you* the parent are in charge of
imposing - you might as well say that bc you aren't a superhero you
are limiting your child's ability to defy gravity ;)
your life? Do you feel hemmed in? Is that how you want your kids to
feel about living?
One of the concepts embraced by unschoolers is to helping our kids
to have a bigger life. That's really hard to do if mom and dad feel
as though they are having to fight their way through "restrictions"
to do it. So part of helping kids have a bigger, fuller life is to
move from a sense of "restrictedness" to a sense of abundance. That
can be pretty challenging sometimes!
We all make choices about where we will live, how many family
members will be employed and at what kinds of jobs, and how many
children we will have - those can all be seen as "restrictions" or
obstacles to be overcome, or they can be seen as windows and doors
of possibility. Each family is going to have a different set of
available possiblities. Some of those possibilities can be re-
negotiated over time, and others cannot (for instance, its possible
to change jobs, but less possible to get rid of a kid!).
that the strategy described above would then impose more limits on
other family members. But that's just getting stuck in the same old
limit/restriction win-lose thinking patterns. Personally, I'd have
approached the whole question differently and looked for a way to
include his tastes and preferences into the decision making process.
Would you have purchased a bright red couch if it *was* in your
budget? I would - if everyone in the family liked it. If *some*
family members liked it and others didn't, I'd have looked for other
options - a chair, maybe. Or a red bed-spread that could be thrown
over the couch sometimes. Or get the red sofa and cover it with a
different color bed-spread, for that matter.
period! That's a real limit imposed by the lifestyle choices George
and I have made. Our living-room furniture is getting pretty shabby,
so at some point soon we'll be looking to either replace or recover
it, and at that point, my kids input will be welcomed. There *are*
some natural limits - in addition to a lack of funds we only have so
much space, and our home includes an energetic 6yo. So that red
leather sectional is out for us, too ;) But at the same time, I
don't want to make a decision about the furniture that four people
will use every day that doesn't take all their wants and wishes into
account.
I could think about that as limiting - I could say that I allow my
children and partner to limit my decision making, but that doesn't
put me in the position to feel loving and generous and joyful toward
my family members. I *want* to feel loving and generous and joyful
and bring more of those feelings into my home on a regular basis. So
rather than saying "my kids limit my world" I will say that I am
open to the wondrous possibilites my kids can offer me. Pink shag
recliner? Wow! I never would have thought of *that* on my own! Cool.
Okay, that brings me 'round to the "within reason" thing. A pink
shag recliner may not be the most "reasonable" choice for our
family. But its certainly something we could look into and do some
problem-solving. Can we find one second-hand? If its cheap enough,
then the high-energy 6yo's impact on the pink shag may not be such
an issue. Maybe the shag would collect more "gunk"... that's
something to consider in the "reasonable" category. Could we, then,
get a cover for the chair? Or maybe a different chair, and a pink
shaggy throw that can go in the washer?
Do you see how this might work differently? I want my kids to be
part of the decision as to what is "within reason".
then" sort of agreement - you can wear those pants *if* you wear
underwear. I have a similar agreement with my dd - she can wear
dresses and skirts *if* she wears underwear and I make sure she has
undies she likes. It doesn't need to be all or nothing.
be saying: "Life sucks, and kids might as well know it now" - is
that really what you believe?
Of Course there are impossiblities in life! Its not something we
have to teach kids at all, much less create *more* barriers just for
the sake of teaching them a lesson. Fortunately, we all have the
option of using the barriers that exist naturally as opportunities
for problem solving and creative thinking - and we have the
wonderful opportunity to model this kind of behavior for our
children every day, so that they can see the world as a place of
possibilities, not restrictions.
pretty "fixed" for now, but I'd be willing to bet the budget has a
little bit of play in it - who decides how much gets spent on
furniture vs going to amusement parks, for example?
Who decides what the limits of decency are in your home? If the
limits are those set by law, that's one thing, but a butt crack
isn't in the same category as a nipple or a penis - so there's a
degree to which "decency" can be negotiated.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>> That is beyond our restrictions. We did not have the money, thespace, nor
> the family situation for leather. The answer was no. Was thatlimiting
> him? Yep.Was it though? Or was it a natural limit brought about by the
circumstances of your family?. Its not necessary to think about
these sorts of limits as something *you* the parent are in charge of
imposing - you might as well say that bc you aren't a superhero you
are limiting your child's ability to defy gravity ;)
>> That is beyond our restrictions.This is such a facinating comment, to me - do you feel restricted in
your life? Do you feel hemmed in? Is that how you want your kids to
feel about living?
One of the concepts embraced by unschoolers is to helping our kids
to have a bigger life. That's really hard to do if mom and dad feel
as though they are having to fight their way through "restrictions"
to do it. So part of helping kids have a bigger, fuller life is to
move from a sense of "restrictedness" to a sense of abundance. That
can be pretty challenging sometimes!
We all make choices about where we will live, how many family
members will be employed and at what kinds of jobs, and how many
children we will have - those can all be seen as "restrictions" or
obstacles to be overcome, or they can be seen as windows and doors
of possibility. Each family is going to have a different set of
available possiblities. Some of those possibilities can be re-
negotiated over time, and others cannot (for instance, its possible
to change jobs, but less possible to get rid of a kid!).
>He's stillspace in our
> disappointed. Should we have gone into debt and eaten all the
> very small living room to make him happy?If you want to think in terms of limits, you could just as well say
that the strategy described above would then impose more limits on
other family members. But that's just getting stuck in the same old
limit/restriction win-lose thinking patterns. Personally, I'd have
approached the whole question differently and looked for a way to
include his tastes and preferences into the decision making process.
Would you have purchased a bright red couch if it *was* in your
budget? I would - if everyone in the family liked it. If *some*
family members liked it and others didn't, I'd have looked for other
options - a chair, maybe. Or a red bed-spread that could be thrown
over the couch sometimes. Or get the red sofa and cover it with a
different color bed-spread, for that matter.
> I am getting the impression still that there should be no limitson
> children. I'm sure I'm missing something but I have yet to hearthe loudest
> voices on here show any limits they have on their children.My family situation doesn't include a budget for new funiture,
period! That's a real limit imposed by the lifestyle choices George
and I have made. Our living-room furniture is getting pretty shabby,
so at some point soon we'll be looking to either replace or recover
it, and at that point, my kids input will be welcomed. There *are*
some natural limits - in addition to a lack of funds we only have so
much space, and our home includes an energetic 6yo. So that red
leather sectional is out for us, too ;) But at the same time, I
don't want to make a decision about the furniture that four people
will use every day that doesn't take all their wants and wishes into
account.
I could think about that as limiting - I could say that I allow my
children and partner to limit my decision making, but that doesn't
put me in the position to feel loving and generous and joyful toward
my family members. I *want* to feel loving and generous and joyful
and bring more of those feelings into my home on a regular basis. So
rather than saying "my kids limit my world" I will say that I am
open to the wondrous possibilites my kids can offer me. Pink shag
recliner? Wow! I never would have thought of *that* on my own! Cool.
Okay, that brings me 'round to the "within reason" thing. A pink
shag recliner may not be the most "reasonable" choice for our
family. But its certainly something we could look into and do some
problem-solving. Can we find one second-hand? If its cheap enough,
then the high-energy 6yo's impact on the pink shag may not be such
an issue. Maybe the shag would collect more "gunk"... that's
something to consider in the "reasonable" category. Could we, then,
get a cover for the chair? Or maybe a different chair, and a pink
shaggy throw that can go in the washer?
Do you see how this might work differently? I want my kids to be
part of the decision as to what is "within reason".
> Clothing: I do not..will not allow my sons to run about with theirpubic
> area hanging out of their pants. So, those huge pants that hangare
> verboten.So they don't wear underwear? That would seem like a reasonable "if-
then" sort of agreement - you can wear those pants *if* you wear
underwear. I have a similar agreement with my dd - she can wear
dresses and skirts *if* she wears underwear and I make sure she has
undies she likes. It doesn't need to be all or nothing.
> But toodo. I would
> bad. There are limits to what an individual can be allowed to
> love to be topless on our beach but that's against the law. Itwould make
> me happy. I'm still not allowed. Those are lessons that we allhave to
> learn.Are you really as unhappy as your posts make you sound? You seem to
be saying: "Life sucks, and kids might as well know it now" - is
that really what you believe?
Of Course there are impossiblities in life! Its not something we
have to teach kids at all, much less create *more* barriers just for
the sake of teaching them a lesson. Fortunately, we all have the
option of using the barriers that exist naturally as opportunities
for problem solving and creative thinking - and we have the
wonderful opportunity to model this kind of behavior for our
children every day, so that they can see the world as a place of
possibilities, not restrictions.
> So, anyway, my kids still have limits on them...mostly they arethe limits
> of decency and budget but really, we all (our family) abide by thesame
> limits.I guess my question would be "who decides?" Maybe the finances are
pretty "fixed" for now, but I'd be willing to bet the budget has a
little bit of play in it - who decides how much gets spent on
furniture vs going to amusement parks, for example?
Who decides what the limits of decency are in your home? If the
limits are those set by law, that's one thing, but a butt crack
isn't in the same category as a nipple or a penis - so there's a
degree to which "decency" can be negotiated.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
Sylvia Toyama
I hear what is being said now about no and yes. I don't know that I completely buy that all kids raised this way will *never* want to do something that is completely inappropriate, ie illegal drugs, underage drinking etc...but maybe this is OK with you all and you allow it. I don't know.
****
And kids who are told no regularly won't try drugs and alcohol? Right. My siblings and I were told no a lot as kids, and we all tried (used regularly) both drugs and alcohol. <g>
Besides I do think the current drug/alcohol laws in this country are just plain wrong. I do allow my kids to sample wine & beer -- I think it's best that they learn about how it makes them feel while they're still young enough that I can help them. I'd hate for their first experience with beer to be one too many, followed by a car accident because they hadn't known or expected what effect alcohol would have on them.
*****
RE: pants. It's not going to happen. I'm not allowing my children to dress like gang members because they think it might be cool. That probably makes me a bad parent but that's the way it is. I discussed the choices they were thinking they'd like to make and asked them what kind of things they wanted people to think about them when they saw them. They both said they didn't want people to think they were bad kids and came to baggy shorts which hang on their waists as a compromise. I would however have held the line had they fought me. Yeah that is probably wrong in your (the plural you) eyes, but in the end, these kids are my responsibility to raise and I'm not going to allow them to glorify criminal behavior simply because they see it as popular culture. (which btw was a passing fancy and they were quick to change to something different so I don't know that it was that
overwhelmingly important to them.)
*****
I have one child who wears his pants low because he can't tolerate having ANYTHING around his waist. He wears all his pants and shorts this way. Even his underwear is worn half way down his butt -- to have anything at his waist drives him to distraction. I suppose if you mistook him for a gang-banger, I could understand, but you might consider that how someone dresses is no real indication of who s/he is. That whole judging a book by its cover thing.
Another point of view my oldest son pointed out to me years ago -- when I was struggling with the idea of how he dressed -- limiting how he presents himself based on what other people might think about him, is allowing someone else to define who he is. He was right, I don't want my kids defining themselves based on what others think about them, or on what others tell them something means.
****
I'm not going to let my 3 yr old dress like pedophile bait when she's 8 either. There are limits in this world and some of them are artificially constructed. Little girls shouldn't be
wearing pants that say "taste me" on the butt. Might work in your family, it's not going to work here.
******
I don't have daughters, but I do know several unschooled little girls in the 3 - 10 range, and I've not seen one of them dressed like 'pedophile bait.'
*******
Re: sex on the couch...you are right. I'm trying to find somewhere where someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavior is OK. I don't know that I see that as correct.
*****
Did someone here say "sure sex on the couch is okay -- bring out the video camera, too" and I missed it?
******
And as I said before I don't believe that because you raise your child with no limits that they will automatically become kind sweet wonderful people.
******
Can your preferred method be held to the same standard you're using to question unschooling? Does controlling your kids actions, dress and diet *automatically* make them sweet wonderful people? Are there no traditionally raised kids who've gotten into trouble?
******
FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was uncomfortable with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop telling him things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel like you didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so I could give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Not my part just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I do there?
*****
Your bias got in the way when you represented unschooling as a method that would mean you'd stop *providing guidance* to him. I have read at these boards for 6+ years and I just don't see how it's possible to think we're providing *no* guidance to our kids. What is related here are stories from parents how give tremendous guidance to our kids. We're constantly talking with our kids, about any topic that comes up, with respect for their thoughts and feelings, and with an eye toward how we can expand their world every moment.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (22) Andy (11) and Dan (6)
There can be no keener revelation of a societys soul than the way in which it treats its children ~ Nelson Mandela
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
http://myeverydaysacred.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
And kids who are told no regularly won't try drugs and alcohol? Right. My siblings and I were told no a lot as kids, and we all tried (used regularly) both drugs and alcohol. <g>
Besides I do think the current drug/alcohol laws in this country are just plain wrong. I do allow my kids to sample wine & beer -- I think it's best that they learn about how it makes them feel while they're still young enough that I can help them. I'd hate for their first experience with beer to be one too many, followed by a car accident because they hadn't known or expected what effect alcohol would have on them.
*****
RE: pants. It's not going to happen. I'm not allowing my children to dress like gang members because they think it might be cool. That probably makes me a bad parent but that's the way it is. I discussed the choices they were thinking they'd like to make and asked them what kind of things they wanted people to think about them when they saw them. They both said they didn't want people to think they were bad kids and came to baggy shorts which hang on their waists as a compromise. I would however have held the line had they fought me. Yeah that is probably wrong in your (the plural you) eyes, but in the end, these kids are my responsibility to raise and I'm not going to allow them to glorify criminal behavior simply because they see it as popular culture. (which btw was a passing fancy and they were quick to change to something different so I don't know that it was that
overwhelmingly important to them.)
*****
I have one child who wears his pants low because he can't tolerate having ANYTHING around his waist. He wears all his pants and shorts this way. Even his underwear is worn half way down his butt -- to have anything at his waist drives him to distraction. I suppose if you mistook him for a gang-banger, I could understand, but you might consider that how someone dresses is no real indication of who s/he is. That whole judging a book by its cover thing.
Another point of view my oldest son pointed out to me years ago -- when I was struggling with the idea of how he dressed -- limiting how he presents himself based on what other people might think about him, is allowing someone else to define who he is. He was right, I don't want my kids defining themselves based on what others think about them, or on what others tell them something means.
****
I'm not going to let my 3 yr old dress like pedophile bait when she's 8 either. There are limits in this world and some of them are artificially constructed. Little girls shouldn't be
wearing pants that say "taste me" on the butt. Might work in your family, it's not going to work here.
******
I don't have daughters, but I do know several unschooled little girls in the 3 - 10 range, and I've not seen one of them dressed like 'pedophile bait.'
*******
Re: sex on the couch...you are right. I'm trying to find somewhere where someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavior is OK. I don't know that I see that as correct.
*****
Did someone here say "sure sex on the couch is okay -- bring out the video camera, too" and I missed it?
******
And as I said before I don't believe that because you raise your child with no limits that they will automatically become kind sweet wonderful people.
******
Can your preferred method be held to the same standard you're using to question unschooling? Does controlling your kids actions, dress and diet *automatically* make them sweet wonderful people? Are there no traditionally raised kids who've gotten into trouble?
******
FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was uncomfortable with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop telling him things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel like you didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so I could give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Not my part just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I do there?
*****
Your bias got in the way when you represented unschooling as a method that would mean you'd stop *providing guidance* to him. I have read at these boards for 6+ years and I just don't see how it's possible to think we're providing *no* guidance to our kids. What is related here are stories from parents how give tremendous guidance to our kids. We're constantly talking with our kids, about any topic that comes up, with respect for their thoughts and feelings, and with an eye toward how we can expand their world every moment.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (22) Andy (11) and Dan (6)
There can be no keener revelation of a societys soul than the way in which it treats its children ~ Nelson Mandela
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
http://myeverydaysacred.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
My parents didn't allow any of those things, either, so I waited
until they were asleep to sneak out of the house and do them anyway.
You left out underage sex - I was all about that, too. Good little
girl with straight As and my parents never new until years later.
That's the trouble "not allowing" can get you into. It doesn't
necessarily set your kids up to make good decisions. If anything, it
puts them in a position of hiding what they want from their parents
and so make *worse* decisions.
One of the amazing transformations I've seen in my stepson is that
he has started to Ask Adults for help, information and guidance.
Before unschooling, he would ignore any of that - maybe even do the
exact opposite, just to prove he could. Now he asks and thinks and
gets other oppinions and thinks some more and makes Real Decisions -
not the kind of knee-jerk reactions that he previously thought of as
decisions.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>I am simply not going to allow certain things.No "if it
> No smoking. No underage drinking. No Drinking and driving.
> feels good do it" because that's what they want to do. Kids needguidance.
My parents didn't allow any of those things, either, so I waited
until they were asleep to sneak out of the house and do them anyway.
You left out underage sex - I was all about that, too. Good little
girl with straight As and my parents never new until years later.
That's the trouble "not allowing" can get you into. It doesn't
necessarily set your kids up to make good decisions. If anything, it
puts them in a position of hiding what they want from their parents
and so make *worse* decisions.
One of the amazing transformations I've seen in my stepson is that
he has started to Ask Adults for help, information and guidance.
Before unschooling, he would ignore any of that - maybe even do the
exact opposite, just to prove he could. Now he asks and thinks and
gets other oppinions and thinks some more and makes Real Decisions -
not the kind of knee-jerk reactions that he previously thought of as
decisions.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
momma
I'm trying to find somewhere where
(husband, children, neighbor, anyone) to be verbally or physically
abusive to me. I feel that everyone should have personal limits in
this world. This goes beyond our children. I also believe that no one
in our home should feel unsafe. This includes verbal and/or physical
abuse or intimidation. I model this to my children and we discuss how
it feels to feel unsafe in your own home, how scary that must be and
so forth.
There have to be
were angry and/or frustrated and used words with me that I was not
comfortable with. My response was-I understand that you are angry and
frustrated but you will not treat me this way. This is exactly what I
would say to my husband/mother/friend or anyone who spoke to me this
way.
ago. He said that it would be really scary to have no guidance. That
the world can be a big scary place sometimes when you are small. I
don't think I have read where anyone on this list has said that they
do not provide guidance. That would be neglectful and abusive. We
love our children as much as you love yours and would never want any
harm to come to them.
When we started it helped me so much think about how I spoke to my
husband, mother, friends, etc. I spoke diferently to them than I did
my children. I tried to imagine what my honest response would be if
it were my husband I was talking to. If I needed help with a chore or
a project would I say to my dh, "Hey, I need these dishes done right
now. Get in here and do it!"? No, definatly not. I would say
something like, "I am really snowed under here. When you're done with
what your doing can I get a hand in here?" Sometimes it was little
things. If I wanted to vaccum the living room and my dh was watching
a show would I just go right in and start to vaccum? No, I might
say, "Can you let me know when a commercial is on so I can run the
vaccum real quick?" I give the same consideration to my children.
The other day my dd (8) left some toys outside and I noticed that it
was getting ready to rain. Years ago I would have gone to her and
scolded her for leaving her toys laying around and made her go out
and get them. What would I have done if it was my dh who had left
things outside and it was getting ready to rain? I would have picked
them up for him. That is what I would want someone to do for me. I
picked up her toys and took them to her and told her that it was
getting ready to rain so I grabbed her toys. She was so grateful that
I had "saved" her dolls. What could have been a power struggle and
possibly hurt feelings turned into a thank you and a hug. What's more
important? For her to learn to pick up her things or how much it
means when we help each other out and go out of our way for others?
When my dh and I were first married he would not go out of his way
for me if it meant an inconvenience for him. This drove me nuts and I
couldn't understand it. I realized that this was the way his parents
treated him. They would have marched him out to pick up his toys. It
was a totally foriegn concept to him.
When I was trying to explain mindful parenting to my dh I said don't
treat the kids the way you were treated as a child. Treat them how
you WISH you had been treated. That helped him put it in perspective
in very simple terms.
I hope this helps some.
Aubrey
> someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavioris OK.
> I don't know that I see that as correct. And as I said before Idon't
> believe that because you raise your child with no limits that theywill
> automatically become kind sweet wonderful people.I DO have personal limits. For example, I do not allow anyone
(husband, children, neighbor, anyone) to be verbally or physically
abusive to me. I feel that everyone should have personal limits in
this world. This goes beyond our children. I also believe that no one
in our home should feel unsafe. This includes verbal and/or physical
abuse or intimidation. I model this to my children and we discuss how
it feels to feel unsafe in your own home, how scary that must be and
so forth.
There have to be
> instances where a child raised to do whatever whenever has gonewrong but I
> doubt anyone will admit to it.Yes, there have been times when my children were younger that they
were angry and/or frustrated and used words with me that I was not
comfortable with. My response was-I understand that you are angry and
frustrated but you will not treat me this way. This is exactly what I
would say to my husband/mother/friend or anyone who spoke to me this
way.
>uncomfortable
> FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was
> with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stoptelling him
> things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel likeyou
> didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so Icould
> give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Notmy part
> just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I dothere?
>My 11 year old son and I had this same conversation a couple of weeks
> Thanks ladies...I continue to learn and change a little each day.
> Karen
ago. He said that it would be really scary to have no guidance. That
the world can be a big scary place sometimes when you are small. I
don't think I have read where anyone on this list has said that they
do not provide guidance. That would be neglectful and abusive. We
love our children as much as you love yours and would never want any
harm to come to them.
When we started it helped me so much think about how I spoke to my
husband, mother, friends, etc. I spoke diferently to them than I did
my children. I tried to imagine what my honest response would be if
it were my husband I was talking to. If I needed help with a chore or
a project would I say to my dh, "Hey, I need these dishes done right
now. Get in here and do it!"? No, definatly not. I would say
something like, "I am really snowed under here. When you're done with
what your doing can I get a hand in here?" Sometimes it was little
things. If I wanted to vaccum the living room and my dh was watching
a show would I just go right in and start to vaccum? No, I might
say, "Can you let me know when a commercial is on so I can run the
vaccum real quick?" I give the same consideration to my children.
The other day my dd (8) left some toys outside and I noticed that it
was getting ready to rain. Years ago I would have gone to her and
scolded her for leaving her toys laying around and made her go out
and get them. What would I have done if it was my dh who had left
things outside and it was getting ready to rain? I would have picked
them up for him. That is what I would want someone to do for me. I
picked up her toys and took them to her and told her that it was
getting ready to rain so I grabbed her toys. She was so grateful that
I had "saved" her dolls. What could have been a power struggle and
possibly hurt feelings turned into a thank you and a hug. What's more
important? For her to learn to pick up her things or how much it
means when we help each other out and go out of our way for others?
When my dh and I were first married he would not go out of his way
for me if it meant an inconvenience for him. This drove me nuts and I
couldn't understand it. I realized that this was the way his parents
treated him. They would have marched him out to pick up his toys. It
was a totally foriegn concept to him.
When I was trying to explain mindful parenting to my dh I said don't
treat the kids the way you were treated as a child. Treat them how
you WISH you had been treated. That helped him put it in perspective
in very simple terms.
I hope this helps some.
Aubrey
Karen Swanay
This did help. This is what I've been doing all along. I have always
treated my kids with more respect than I was treated with as a child. But
the part of that I see missing here, and again it could be the way things
are being said back and forth is that with the respect I give to them, I
expect the same in return. I am not here to pick up my son's underwear off
the bathroom floor when he's stepped over it 10 times this morning. Could I
have picked it up? Sure. Have I picked it up in the past? Yes. But this
morning, I noticed it when I was on my way to the shower and I said to (this
is the 11yr old) "Hey, I noticed your underwear and sleep shirt on the floor
in the bathroom, could you pick that up please?" And then I told him I was
getting into the shower. That isn't any different than I would have spoken
to my husband, mother, or friend. They dropped it they can bend over and
pick it up. That's just common courtesy and everyone living here helping to
take care of the place we live.
Now, I still yell, but a lot less in the last 4 days than previously.
Actually only once and that was this morning when the boys were fighting.
Then I called them out here and talked to them about it and we (all three)
came to a better plan of action than the fighting over the X-box. I thought
that was successful.
I suppose I'm not as far off as I feel I might be...but I still feel as
though a lot of people on here think I'm a horrible parent who is
continually stepping on the neck of my boys. Perhaps in time I will shift
my thinking on baggy pants and other things I have that are rigid. I do
have to remind myself it's been 4 days. That's not a long time to undo 36
yrs of training.
Thanks!
Karen
treated my kids with more respect than I was treated with as a child. But
the part of that I see missing here, and again it could be the way things
are being said back and forth is that with the respect I give to them, I
expect the same in return. I am not here to pick up my son's underwear off
the bathroom floor when he's stepped over it 10 times this morning. Could I
have picked it up? Sure. Have I picked it up in the past? Yes. But this
morning, I noticed it when I was on my way to the shower and I said to (this
is the 11yr old) "Hey, I noticed your underwear and sleep shirt on the floor
in the bathroom, could you pick that up please?" And then I told him I was
getting into the shower. That isn't any different than I would have spoken
to my husband, mother, or friend. They dropped it they can bend over and
pick it up. That's just common courtesy and everyone living here helping to
take care of the place we live.
Now, I still yell, but a lot less in the last 4 days than previously.
Actually only once and that was this morning when the boys were fighting.
Then I called them out here and talked to them about it and we (all three)
came to a better plan of action than the fighting over the X-box. I thought
that was successful.
I suppose I'm not as far off as I feel I might be...but I still feel as
though a lot of people on here think I'm a horrible parent who is
continually stepping on the neck of my boys. Perhaps in time I will shift
my thinking on baggy pants and other things I have that are rigid. I do
have to remind myself it's been 4 days. That's not a long time to undo 36
yrs of training.
Thanks!
Karen
On 10/5/07, momma <southernbelle@...> wrote:
>
> My 11 year old son and I had this same conversation a couple of weeks
> ago. He said that it would be really scary to have no guidance. That
> the world can be a big scary place sometimes when you are small. I
> don't think I have read where anyone on this list has said that they
> do not provide guidance. That would be neglectful and abusive. We
> love our children as much as you love yours and would never want any
> harm to come to them.
> I hope this helps some.
> Aubrey
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 5, 2007, at 9:23 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
This is a hugely important point that you're stuck on. Yes/no. Do it/
don't do it. Stop dividing the world into two options and you'll be
able to understand.
We are helping our kids get what they want.
Kids *also* don't want to hurt people. They don't want to destroy
things. Kids do hurt others because they either aren't understanding
or can't figure out a better way. We're there to help them figure out
a better way.
We help them with the bigger picture when they're problem solving. As
someone said with the piano. It's not "No, don't do that" *OR* "Yes
do that even though your brother wants to sleep" It's "How about we
move that to your room so it doesn't wake your brother?"
When kids know we're trying to help, they don't mind problem solving.
When they know their needs are taken seriously the *do* take other's
needs seriously.
It's only when kids feel their needs aren't taken seriously and they
need to compete with others to get what they want and they know no
one else is going to help them that they hold onto solutions that are
hurtful. They don't care about others' needs because it becomes clear
that others don't care about their needs. (Parents only care about
the needs the parents agree with and don't inconvenience them.)
Tasting soap is more yucky than okay but a child won't die.
A child running into the street is dangerous and needs to be stopped.
A child playing a trumpet at 5AM is rude and needs to find a more
appropriate time to play the trumpet.
These aren't "nos" but they're also not "okay".
I would warn my daughter that soap tasted not nice and to try a
little bit if she wanted.
I would stop my child from running into the street and, depending on
her age, find better places to play until she was old enough to fully
understood the dangers of the street.
The trumpet is an opportunity to help a child figure out a better
solution. And he won't, as he's old enough and confident that mom
does want to help him play the trumpet, hold onto the solution he hit
on first as the only solution for him. When kids are treated with
respect they do, as they're developmentally able, not want to hurt
others.
You become a parent whose kids trust you less. The kids also know
that you don't trust them. It sets up the foundation for times when
they will take their problems somewhere other than the person who
will erect a barrier around them. Wouldn't you?
Seriously if you were to read back through the archives of what some
of the adults here did *because* they were controlled you couldn't
hold onto the belief that you can make your children be good by
making them behave as if they were good. There are thousands of
parents whose kids are sweet at home but holy terrors as soon as
they're out of sight.
Some kids who are controlled do turn out okay. Not because of the
control but because of other factors that counteract the control.
(Communication and personality are two big factors.)
What we're discussing is helping kids problem solve and make choices
so that they can think things through when they aren't with us. We
don't tell them what choices to make but we help them think about
their choices. *Sometimes* they'll deliberately choose "wrong" to
experience something (Staying up all night, eating a whole chocolate
rabbit,
If you think the only difference between a child who takes drugs and
a child who doesn't is control, you're at risk for having a child who
will take drugs. Kids don't turn to drugs just because they're
offered. Kids turn to drugs because they're in pain.
Undoubtedly there will be a few always mindfully parented kids who
will try drugs but I can guarantee it's for different reasons than
most kids. (And undoubtedly they would try drugs whether they were
controlled or mindfully parented.)
There are *loads* of controlled kids using and abusing drugs. Control
is one of the things that can drive kids *to* drugs: they feel they
aren't heard or understood, that they aren't taken seriously unless
they become clones of their parents. Parents don't control because
they're mean. The do it because they love. But to the controlled it
doesn't feel at all like love. It *feels* like "You aren't good
enough the way you are. You need to do things the way I want you to
in order to be accepted by me." It isn't at all what the parents
mean, but it's what it feels like. The kids can't react to the
parents' intent, only to what they perceive it to be.
people are saying and still trying to pigeon hole answers into
control and not control.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There have to beBecause we *aren't* raising children who do whatever whenever!
> instances where a child raised to do whatever whenever has gone
> wrong but I
> doubt anyone will admit to it.
This is a hugely important point that you're stuck on. Yes/no. Do it/
don't do it. Stop dividing the world into two options and you'll be
able to understand.
We are helping our kids get what they want.
Kids *also* don't want to hurt people. They don't want to destroy
things. Kids do hurt others because they either aren't understanding
or can't figure out a better way. We're there to help them figure out
a better way.
We help them with the bigger picture when they're problem solving. As
someone said with the piano. It's not "No, don't do that" *OR* "Yes
do that even though your brother wants to sleep" It's "How about we
move that to your room so it doesn't wake your brother?"
When kids know we're trying to help, they don't mind problem solving.
When they know their needs are taken seriously the *do* take other's
needs seriously.
It's only when kids feel their needs aren't taken seriously and they
need to compete with others to get what they want and they know no
one else is going to help them that they hold onto solutions that are
hurtful. They don't care about others' needs because it becomes clear
that others don't care about their needs. (Parents only care about
the needs the parents agree with and don't inconvenience them.)
> All behavior is OK.Again with the dichotomy.
>
Tasting soap is more yucky than okay but a child won't die.
A child running into the street is dangerous and needs to be stopped.
A child playing a trumpet at 5AM is rude and needs to find a more
appropriate time to play the trumpet.
These aren't "nos" but they're also not "okay".
I would warn my daughter that soap tasted not nice and to try a
little bit if she wanted.
I would stop my child from running into the street and, depending on
her age, find better places to play until she was old enough to fully
understood the dangers of the street.
The trumpet is an opportunity to help a child figure out a better
solution. And he won't, as he's old enough and confident that mom
does want to help him play the trumpet, hold onto the solution he hit
on first as the only solution for him. When kids are treated with
respect they do, as they're developmentally able, not want to hurt
others.
> That probably makesBad and good are vague relative terms.
> me a bad parent but that's the way it is.
>
You become a parent whose kids trust you less. The kids also know
that you don't trust them. It sets up the foundation for times when
they will take their problems somewhere other than the person who
will erect a barrier around them. Wouldn't you?
> I don't know that IAnd controlled kids never do this?
> completely buy that all kids raised this way will *never* want to do
> something that is completely inappropriate, ie illegal drugs, underage
> drinking etc...
>
Seriously if you were to read back through the archives of what some
of the adults here did *because* they were controlled you couldn't
hold onto the belief that you can make your children be good by
making them behave as if they were good. There are thousands of
parents whose kids are sweet at home but holy terrors as soon as
they're out of sight.
Some kids who are controlled do turn out okay. Not because of the
control but because of other factors that counteract the control.
(Communication and personality are two big factors.)
What we're discussing is helping kids problem solve and make choices
so that they can think things through when they aren't with us. We
don't tell them what choices to make but we help them think about
their choices. *Sometimes* they'll deliberately choose "wrong" to
experience something (Staying up all night, eating a whole chocolate
rabbit,
If you think the only difference between a child who takes drugs and
a child who doesn't is control, you're at risk for having a child who
will take drugs. Kids don't turn to drugs just because they're
offered. Kids turn to drugs because they're in pain.
Undoubtedly there will be a few always mindfully parented kids who
will try drugs but I can guarantee it's for different reasons than
most kids. (And undoubtedly they would try drugs whether they were
controlled or mindfully parented.)
There are *loads* of controlled kids using and abusing drugs. Control
is one of the things that can drive kids *to* drugs: they feel they
aren't heard or understood, that they aren't taken seriously unless
they become clones of their parents. Parents don't control because
they're mean. The do it because they love. But to the controlled it
doesn't feel at all like love. It *feels* like "You aren't good
enough the way you are. You need to do things the way I want you to
in order to be accepted by me." It isn't at all what the parents
mean, but it's what it feels like. The kids can't react to the
parents' intent, only to what they perceive it to be.
> but maybe this is OK with you all and you allow it.If you believe that then it's because again you aren't reading what
>
people are saying and still trying to pigeon hole answers into
control and not control.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 5, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
If control worked, the world would be full of model citizens.
Seriously. Control is so simple that the most neophyte parent can
figure it out.
unschooled kids. If you really think we're raising kids who do
whatever whenever you should sign off the list right now.
The conference in Albequerque had dozens of unschooled kids running
around exploring on their own fairly often. (As well as dozens of
kids hanging around their parents!)
That would be a recipe for disaster with conventionally parented
kids. They'd want to do all the things they aren't allowed to do.
But with the unschooled kids there, the hotel was happy to welcome
them back. There isn't a reason to misbehave when they aren't with
their parents. They know their parents will help them do whatever
they want. They've been helped to think about their decisions so they
have the tools to think things through when they're on their own.
If you believe kids are inherently bad and need trained not to be,
mindful parenting will look foolish. If we look at our kids as trying
to do the best they can with the knowledge and skills and development
they have, then treating them with respect is a lot easier and has
much better results!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> No smoking. No underage drinking. No Drinking and driving.And how how how are you going to do that?
If control worked, the world would be full of model citizens.
Seriously. Control is so simple that the most neophyte parent can
figure it out.
> Right now theySeriously you need to attend an unschooling conference and *see* some
> are pretty good so it's not. But I have to look down the road and
> see what
> might be. That's a parent's job. Not to abdicate.
>
unschooled kids. If you really think we're raising kids who do
whatever whenever you should sign off the list right now.
The conference in Albequerque had dozens of unschooled kids running
around exploring on their own fairly often. (As well as dozens of
kids hanging around their parents!)
That would be a recipe for disaster with conventionally parented
kids. They'd want to do all the things they aren't allowed to do.
But with the unschooled kids there, the hotel was happy to welcome
them back. There isn't a reason to misbehave when they aren't with
their parents. They know their parents will help them do whatever
they want. They've been helped to think about their decisions so they
have the tools to think things through when they're on their own.
If you believe kids are inherently bad and need trained not to be,
mindful parenting will look foolish. If we look at our kids as trying
to do the best they can with the knowledge and skills and development
they have, then treating them with respect is a lot easier and has
much better results!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
On 10/5/07, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
They know their parents will help them do whatever
anything. Don't feed healthy foods because you will create an eating
disorder. Don't give bed times. Don't ask a child to pick things up.
Don't...Don't...Don't...Don't...for ME but for kids it's ANYTHING
ANYTHING ANYTHING!!! I'm not trying to be difficult and I'm feeling
quite stupid which is not a usual feeling for me. I simply can not
see how this actually works. If a child is allowed, encouraged, not
guided away from anything they want to do, then how can you (anyone
not just you) say things will never go wrong? I am not making the
assumption that controlled children are better or I wouldn't have
signed up for this list. I am searching for ways for us all to be
more happy and have more peace. This is just a huge thing for me. It
feels like abdicating all responsibility and that seems like beign
neglect.
ignorant. We are not born knowing that stoves are hot, that putting
beans in your nose can be uncomfortable and dangerous. Children have
to be taught these things. And when I read "let them do what they
want" that says to me "don't stop them from anything" Is there
another option? I know one of my hobgoblins is black and white
thinking so this could be my stumbling point.
And that is exactly why I'm stuck...kids will want to do something and
to respect what they want to do and help them do it no matter what
seems wrong. It's the "no matter what" that has me. 15 yr old boys
want to have sex. That's biological drive. Do you help your kids
achieve that? Give them pornography? Time alone with a girlfriend?
I mean, do you guide your kids at all with morals, ethics and values
or no? And no this isn't an extreme example, it's an honest to
goodness question.
Thanks,
Karen
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
>**I was not mindfully parented and I did not do any of that.
> On Oct 5, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
>
> > No smoking. No underage drinking. No Drinking and driving.
>
> And how how how are you going to do that?
>
> If control worked, the world would be full of model citizens.
> Seriously. Control is so simple that the most neophyte parent can
> figure it out.
They know their parents will help them do whatever
> they want.** That is what I've been saying....whatever they want. Regardless of
anything. Don't feed healthy foods because you will create an eating
disorder. Don't give bed times. Don't ask a child to pick things up.
Don't...Don't...Don't...Don't...for ME but for kids it's ANYTHING
ANYTHING ANYTHING!!! I'm not trying to be difficult and I'm feeling
quite stupid which is not a usual feeling for me. I simply can not
see how this actually works. If a child is allowed, encouraged, not
guided away from anything they want to do, then how can you (anyone
not just you) say things will never go wrong? I am not making the
assumption that controlled children are better or I wouldn't have
signed up for this list. I am searching for ways for us all to be
more happy and have more peace. This is just a huge thing for me. It
feels like abdicating all responsibility and that seems like beign
neglect.
> If you believe kids are inherently bad and need trained not to be,** I do not believe kids are inherently wrong. They are inherently
> mindful parenting will look foolish. If we look at our kids as trying
> to do the best they can with the knowledge and skills and development
> they have, then treating them with respect is a lot easier and has
> much better results!
ignorant. We are not born knowing that stoves are hot, that putting
beans in your nose can be uncomfortable and dangerous. Children have
to be taught these things. And when I read "let them do what they
want" that says to me "don't stop them from anything" Is there
another option? I know one of my hobgoblins is black and white
thinking so this could be my stumbling point.
And that is exactly why I'm stuck...kids will want to do something and
to respect what they want to do and help them do it no matter what
seems wrong. It's the "no matter what" that has me. 15 yr old boys
want to have sex. That's biological drive. Do you help your kids
achieve that? Give them pornography? Time alone with a girlfriend?
I mean, do you guide your kids at all with morals, ethics and values
or no? And no this isn't an extreme example, it's an honest to
goodness question.
Thanks,
Karen
>--
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
Shannon Rizzo
Karen,
It isn't you vs them - it's collaborative problem solving. The Explosive
Child does a good job of describing the process, and does unfortunately have
an off-putting title. In addition to using CBS between adult and kids, we
are teaching the kids to use it among themselves. It turns them away from
thinking of a situation as either/or (either I get my way or he gets his)
but instead helps them (and us) come to a solution that is satisfactory to
each side.
Shannon
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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12:27 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It isn't you vs them - it's collaborative problem solving. The Explosive
Child does a good job of describing the process, and does unfortunately have
an off-putting title. In addition to using CBS between adult and kids, we
are teaching the kids to use it among themselves. It turns them away from
thinking of a situation as either/or (either I get my way or he gets his)
but instead helps them (and us) come to a solution that is satisfactory to
each side.
Shannon
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.1/1051 - Release Date: 10/5/2007
12:27 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Buxcel
Here's a l quote I printed out a while back, and it speaks to what Joyce is
talking about. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the way you lay things out, Joyce!
Thanks so much for taking the time, it benefits all of us! Sending so much
Gratitude your way...
"We're like actors, turned loose in this world to wander in search of a
phantom, endlessly searching for a half formed shadow of our lost reality.
When others demand that we become the people they want us to be, they force
us to destroy the person we really are. It's a subtle kind of murder. The
most loving parents and relatives commit this murder with smiles on their
faces."
-Jim Morrison (1943-1971)
Namaste~
Karen
(one of those Hippy, All is Well kind of people! :) And it *really* works
for us!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
talking about. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the way you lay things out, Joyce!
Thanks so much for taking the time, it benefits all of us! Sending so much
Gratitude your way...
"We're like actors, turned loose in this world to wander in search of a
phantom, endlessly searching for a half formed shadow of our lost reality.
When others demand that we become the people they want us to be, they force
us to destroy the person we really are. It's a subtle kind of murder. The
most loving parents and relatives commit this murder with smiles on their
faces."
-Jim Morrison (1943-1971)
Namaste~
Karen
(one of those Hippy, All is Well kind of people! :) And it *really* works
for us!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I've been foolowing this thread closely, but I've been really, really
busy. I will answer all the other posts as well, but I thought I
needed to chime in now.
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
Well I know they don't because they are 11 and 9 and they aren't ever
out of
my sight. One of the downsides to being home with me all the time is
they
are with me all the time.
-=-=-=-=-
At nine and 11, they should be with you a LOT.
But what happens when they turn 14 and 16? They will most likely NOT be
with you as much. You will have less and less control each year---as it
*should* be! How do you plan to monitor what they do?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I hear what is being said now about no and yes. I don't know that I
completely buy that all kids raised this way will *never* want to do
something that is completely inappropriate, ie illegal drugs, underage
drinking etc...but maybe this is OK with you all and you allow it. I
don't
know.
-=-=-=-
And...................this is my cue! <g>
Frankly, I could've said I won't "allow" it. But as I've said soooo
many times: I'm not that stupid (not saying that *you* are! It's just
something I've said for years about this very subject.). I'm not so
stupid to think that *I* can control what someone else---even if it's
my own kid---does. I CAN NOT. It's just not possible. I can only
control *me*.
As soon as that driver's license kicks in, parents are OUT of the loop
unless they've made it a PRIORITY to be trusted confidantes.
My 19 year old, Cameron, was in school until the end of sixth
grade---private prep school. We had a long deschooling process, but we
worked really hard to repair the damage. His best buds though were
*all* schooled kids.
Now, *I* don't think of teen sex, drugs, and drinking as
"innappropriate" at all. I think they are *natural* progressions in
life. NOT that *everyone* will do them (nor that anyone really
*should*!), but that that is the age when it is---well, <g>
"age-appropriate"! <G> They WILL try new things---and epecially things
that they have never experienced before. I really, really DO think it's
natural. That doesn't make them any less potentially dangerous (not
that any of them are inherently dangerous---just potentially). Just
something that *I* really didn't want to shut down communication about.
In fact, I'd rather shut down conversations on almost *anything*
else!!! But what do parents forbid? Yep---the very thing we need to BE
present for. The very things our children want more info on. What do
the children get from their parents instead? "Don't even THINK about
drinking/drugs/sex!" THose are the VERY things we need to be as
involved in as possible.
So---I had a son (and there's no one here who has met him that doesn't
know him to be kind and gentle and responsible and---just all-round
great guy! He really is. I'd think that if he weren't my first-born!
I'm just lucky enough to have given birth to him!). So I have this son
who drank, smoked pot, and had sex before he was 18.
The world didn't end.
Would I have been happier if he hadn't? I don't know. I think he
learned a LOT. And none of it made him a less perfect, amazing person.
Seriously.
He still will have an occasional high-end beer if we're having a party.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He and his girlfriend
may have a beer at friends' houses (how would I know exactly?? He's now
19---still under-age, but I know I truly have no control!). But he's
gotten drunk only once, and he's not a big fan of alcohol. It's really
not an issue.
Pot---he had a while when he smoked a good bit. We talked a LOT about
it. I've never smoked (I'm 47 and one of the few people my age that I
know who haven't ever toked), so I had very little experience with it.
My husband smoked a bit in high school and was skeptical of my tactics.
My GOAL was that Cameron be safe. Number One goal is safety. Cam KNOWS
that. NOTHING is more important to me than his welfare.
I'm stressing this because he knows it---and he knows that I will do
ANYTHING to keep him safe. I canNOT stop him from being a teen and
experimenting. I CAN, though BE there for him and make sure he gets
home in one piece.
SO----if he was at a friend's and smoked, he would CALL me. I would go
get him. We did this many, many times. I didn't ridicule him or yell at
him or make him feel that it would be safer to drive himself home and
hide it from me. I'd rather KNOW where he was, with whom, and what they
were doing than be in the dark about his life---as all his friends'
parents were. Cameron felt safe and valued. His learning never went too
far (as his friends' did). We talked about where to buy pot, from whom,
about organic pot, about what people could put in it. I put him in
touch with friends of mine who still smoked. They gave him GOOD advice
on what and whom to avoid and ansered many questions about it that I
didn't know. He shared that with me as well.
He joined NORML to try to get hemp and pot legalized. He learned a LOT
about its production and prohibition. He's a knowledgable consumer. <g>
Again---safety and knowledge are so key!
I don't feel that I "faciliated" his pot-smoking, but I do feel he made
better decisions about it because of me and my openness. I wouldn't buy
it for him, and we talked about his jeopardizing our unschooling of his
little brother if he were to get caught. It was a VERY serious subject
here, and he took *his* responsibility with it very, very seriously.
Sex. He's been sexually active for a while. Long-term girlfriend---over
four years now? He didn't tell me before, but *just* afterwards. It
wasn't unplanned---they had talked about it for quite a while. Do *I*
feel it was too soon? As a parent, of course I do! <G> He should be 35,
right? But we've talked about sex from every angle. He's gentle and
sweet with Carly, and they love each other. Exactly HOW is a parent
planning to *stop* a teen from having sex? Again, the *best* thing I
can do is to make sure he's informed and safe. Santa gives condoms in
his stocking---did for several years before he was sexually active. But
all his friends knew that there was a "stash" in the upstairs
bathroom---there for the taking. I told Carly I'd take her to the
gynocologist if her mother wouldn't.
OPEN, HONEST Communication is THE most important thing we have going. I
wouldn't trade THAT for all the non-smoking/non-drinking virgins in the
world!
So, YES, some kids DO these things---even IF they are honored and
respected and trusted. (He *was* schooled though for eight years, so
it's hard to know what would have happened had he never been in
school---I'll let you know how it goes with his alway-unschooled
brother! <g>)
OK---back to the regularly scheduled issues:
-=-=-=-=-=-
FWIW the sofa thing I did validate Liam's feelings because the sofa I
wanted
was 9K and white leather and I couldn't get it either. We talked about
how
nice it would be but we didn't have the space nor the money for either
one.
He was disappointed but I was too. He didn't cry over it and I don't
believe it left a lasting scar. But in the end those are the limits we
have, time, space and money and I don't have control over those.
-=-=-=-
REAL limits. See? They *do* exist! <bwg>
-=-=-=-=-
RE: pants. It's not going to happen. I'm not allowing my children to
dress
like gang members because they think it might be cool. That probably
makes
me a bad parent but that's the way it is. I discussed the choices they
were
thinking they'd like to make and asked them what kind of things they
wanted
people to think about them when they saw them. They both said they
didn't
want people to think they were bad kids and came to baggy shorts which
hang
on their waists as a compromise. I would however have held the line had
they fought me. Yeah that is probably wrong in your (the plural you)
eyes,
but in the end, these kids are my responsibility to raise and I'm not
going
to allow them to glorify criminal behavior simply because they see it as
popular culture. (which btw was a passing fancy and they were quick to
change to something different so I don't know that it was that
overwhelmingly important to them.) I'm not going to let my 3 yr old
dress
like pedophile bait when she's 8 either. There are limits in this
world and
some of them are artificially constructed. Little girls shouldn't be
wearing pants that say "taste me" on the butt. Might work in your
family,
it's not going to work here.
-=-=-=-
Cam was into Goth for a VERY brief period. I went with it. I think
that, because I was so supportive, it didn't last long. I dyed his hair
black for him; I bought him black nail polish; I bought him his own
eye-liner; I bought lots of black clothes. *I* knew he wasn't Goth, but
I helped feed whatever that was that he needed. He went through it
quickly, KNOWING that I respected his need to do and be that for a
while.
It's not that it was overwhelmingly important---but it WAS important
for a while---even though just a passing fancy. He laughs about it now.
He felt validated and valued at the time. It really didn't hurt *me*
any---even though it did "glorify" suicide and death. It wasn't Who He
Was---it was just a....passing fancy and part of popular culture.
There are a lot of "artificial" limits. But I choose not to limit my
life with silly ones.
And as my father says: NO one should be wearing pants with "taste me"
on the butt---NOT just little girls! <G>
=-=-=-=-=-
Re: sex on the couch...you are right. I'm trying to find somewhere
where
someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavior is
OK.
I don't know that I see that as correct. And as I said before I don't
believe that because you raise your child with no limits that they will
automatically become kind sweet wonderful people. There have to be
instances where a child raised to do whatever whenever has gone wrong
but I
doubt anyone will admit to it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I won't admit that Cameron has done anything "wrong." I will say that
he's been busy learning a LOT. NONE of it made him a horrible person.
NOT ONE THING! And knowing that his parents were "in his corner" at all
times encouraged him to BE SMART and be honest and be ....just SMART
and thoughtful about things. He's not rash and reactive---he THINKS
about things. And he has NOTHING to rebel against. Not one thing. We
accept that he will try things.
I think it's dishonest and irresponsible for parents to encourage
independent, explorers throughout childhood and then turn around at 13
and say, "NO! DON'T! STOP!" They're SUPPOSED to keep learning. It's
what they DO! They should just be safe and thoughtful about it!
-=-=-=-
Still, this discussion has been good for
me. It has shown me how to switch my thinking. I am getting there.
This
unlearning stuff is hard work! =)
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---I know!
-=-=-=-=-
I do have to admit to something. For the last 4 days I have said No
only 2
times. Once was because I physically could not take the kids anywhere
(I
have fibromyalgia, Systemic Lupus and Sjogren's Syndrome) and I am
having a
flare. The boys didn't realize how sick I felt so I told them I
couldn't do
it now, but we would do later when I was better. And the other was to
make
brown rice for dinner last night but it takes over an hour and we didn't
have time to do it so I'm making it today.
-=-=-=-=-
Karen, those are REAL limits. Life is FULL of those! We really don't
need to make up arbitrary limits to show kids that there are limits.
They exist. They're THERE!
-=-=-=-=-
The boys have not had one fight
in 4 days. That's amazing. I asked my son (the 11 yr old) about it
and he
said it was because he didn't feel the stress of having to do school
and he
felt less mad. So that's a good thing.
-=-=-=-=-
Of course---you may also be relaxing a bit, and they can *feel*
that---whether you SHOW it or not. They are *feeling* the difference!
Keep in mind that that's what it's like with many of us all the
time---the anxiety's gone. Not 100%----but just saying yes and not
stressing over every little thing. Enjoy your kids and enjoy the
precious little time you have with them. It goes sooo fast!
-=-=-=-=-=-
FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was
uncomfortable
with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop telling him
things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel like you
didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so I
could
give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Not my
part
just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I do there?
-=-=-=-
Karen, NO ONE here has said NO LIMITS!!!!!
We say no *ARBITRARY* limits---can you see the difference???
It's *one* word, but it makes ALL the difference!!!
My children know real limits. They also know when someone is being
arbitrary.
NO ONE has said provide no guidance. We all provide guidance every day!
We are the MOST "guidant" parents you'll ever meet!
Lord, if I stopped "telling" my children things, what would I have left
to say? <g>I just don't TELL them what to do. I give choices. We
discuss options. I tell them my concerns, and they tell me theirs. The
important things is that, if they don't make the same choice *I* would
make, I'm still OK with that. If they made an informed choice (which
turned out poorly) and *learned* something, they can always make a
better choice next time. And it's MUCH better to learn to make those
kinds of decisions when the stakes are so much lower (like kinds of
pants) than when they are life-altering (like buying a house or
choosing a career).
I cannot tell you how much I trust my boys. They are absolutely
incredible learning machines. And they are lucky in that they get to
see me make all kinds of goofy choices---as well as really good ones. I
try to stay as informed about my life AND theirs as I can. But to be
informed in their lives, they MUST trust me. MUST! They need to know
that they can make a bad decision and that I am still in their corners.
I am ALWAYS in their corners. Forever---no matter what. Drugs,
drinking, sex---doesn't matter. I will support them and be there FOR
them. It's important to all of us, and THEY know it. And they didn't
learn that by having me limit them or control *any*thing they did. They
learned it by having the freedom (and natural limits) to make
choices---with my help, always.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
busy. I will answer all the other posts as well, but I thought I
needed to chime in now.
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
Well I know they don't because they are 11 and 9 and they aren't ever
out of
my sight. One of the downsides to being home with me all the time is
they
are with me all the time.
-=-=-=-=-
At nine and 11, they should be with you a LOT.
But what happens when they turn 14 and 16? They will most likely NOT be
with you as much. You will have less and less control each year---as it
*should* be! How do you plan to monitor what they do?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I hear what is being said now about no and yes. I don't know that I
completely buy that all kids raised this way will *never* want to do
something that is completely inappropriate, ie illegal drugs, underage
drinking etc...but maybe this is OK with you all and you allow it. I
don't
know.
-=-=-=-
And...................this is my cue! <g>
Frankly, I could've said I won't "allow" it. But as I've said soooo
many times: I'm not that stupid (not saying that *you* are! It's just
something I've said for years about this very subject.). I'm not so
stupid to think that *I* can control what someone else---even if it's
my own kid---does. I CAN NOT. It's just not possible. I can only
control *me*.
As soon as that driver's license kicks in, parents are OUT of the loop
unless they've made it a PRIORITY to be trusted confidantes.
My 19 year old, Cameron, was in school until the end of sixth
grade---private prep school. We had a long deschooling process, but we
worked really hard to repair the damage. His best buds though were
*all* schooled kids.
Now, *I* don't think of teen sex, drugs, and drinking as
"innappropriate" at all. I think they are *natural* progressions in
life. NOT that *everyone* will do them (nor that anyone really
*should*!), but that that is the age when it is---well, <g>
"age-appropriate"! <G> They WILL try new things---and epecially things
that they have never experienced before. I really, really DO think it's
natural. That doesn't make them any less potentially dangerous (not
that any of them are inherently dangerous---just potentially). Just
something that *I* really didn't want to shut down communication about.
In fact, I'd rather shut down conversations on almost *anything*
else!!! But what do parents forbid? Yep---the very thing we need to BE
present for. The very things our children want more info on. What do
the children get from their parents instead? "Don't even THINK about
drinking/drugs/sex!" THose are the VERY things we need to be as
involved in as possible.
So---I had a son (and there's no one here who has met him that doesn't
know him to be kind and gentle and responsible and---just all-round
great guy! He really is. I'd think that if he weren't my first-born!
I'm just lucky enough to have given birth to him!). So I have this son
who drank, smoked pot, and had sex before he was 18.
The world didn't end.
Would I have been happier if he hadn't? I don't know. I think he
learned a LOT. And none of it made him a less perfect, amazing person.
Seriously.
He still will have an occasional high-end beer if we're having a party.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He and his girlfriend
may have a beer at friends' houses (how would I know exactly?? He's now
19---still under-age, but I know I truly have no control!). But he's
gotten drunk only once, and he's not a big fan of alcohol. It's really
not an issue.
Pot---he had a while when he smoked a good bit. We talked a LOT about
it. I've never smoked (I'm 47 and one of the few people my age that I
know who haven't ever toked), so I had very little experience with it.
My husband smoked a bit in high school and was skeptical of my tactics.
My GOAL was that Cameron be safe. Number One goal is safety. Cam KNOWS
that. NOTHING is more important to me than his welfare.
I'm stressing this because he knows it---and he knows that I will do
ANYTHING to keep him safe. I canNOT stop him from being a teen and
experimenting. I CAN, though BE there for him and make sure he gets
home in one piece.
SO----if he was at a friend's and smoked, he would CALL me. I would go
get him. We did this many, many times. I didn't ridicule him or yell at
him or make him feel that it would be safer to drive himself home and
hide it from me. I'd rather KNOW where he was, with whom, and what they
were doing than be in the dark about his life---as all his friends'
parents were. Cameron felt safe and valued. His learning never went too
far (as his friends' did). We talked about where to buy pot, from whom,
about organic pot, about what people could put in it. I put him in
touch with friends of mine who still smoked. They gave him GOOD advice
on what and whom to avoid and ansered many questions about it that I
didn't know. He shared that with me as well.
He joined NORML to try to get hemp and pot legalized. He learned a LOT
about its production and prohibition. He's a knowledgable consumer. <g>
Again---safety and knowledge are so key!
I don't feel that I "faciliated" his pot-smoking, but I do feel he made
better decisions about it because of me and my openness. I wouldn't buy
it for him, and we talked about his jeopardizing our unschooling of his
little brother if he were to get caught. It was a VERY serious subject
here, and he took *his* responsibility with it very, very seriously.
Sex. He's been sexually active for a while. Long-term girlfriend---over
four years now? He didn't tell me before, but *just* afterwards. It
wasn't unplanned---they had talked about it for quite a while. Do *I*
feel it was too soon? As a parent, of course I do! <G> He should be 35,
right? But we've talked about sex from every angle. He's gentle and
sweet with Carly, and they love each other. Exactly HOW is a parent
planning to *stop* a teen from having sex? Again, the *best* thing I
can do is to make sure he's informed and safe. Santa gives condoms in
his stocking---did for several years before he was sexually active. But
all his friends knew that there was a "stash" in the upstairs
bathroom---there for the taking. I told Carly I'd take her to the
gynocologist if her mother wouldn't.
OPEN, HONEST Communication is THE most important thing we have going. I
wouldn't trade THAT for all the non-smoking/non-drinking virgins in the
world!
So, YES, some kids DO these things---even IF they are honored and
respected and trusted. (He *was* schooled though for eight years, so
it's hard to know what would have happened had he never been in
school---I'll let you know how it goes with his alway-unschooled
brother! <g>)
OK---back to the regularly scheduled issues:
-=-=-=-=-=-
FWIW the sofa thing I did validate Liam's feelings because the sofa I
wanted
was 9K and white leather and I couldn't get it either. We talked about
how
nice it would be but we didn't have the space nor the money for either
one.
He was disappointed but I was too. He didn't cry over it and I don't
believe it left a lasting scar. But in the end those are the limits we
have, time, space and money and I don't have control over those.
-=-=-=-
REAL limits. See? They *do* exist! <bwg>
-=-=-=-=-
RE: pants. It's not going to happen. I'm not allowing my children to
dress
like gang members because they think it might be cool. That probably
makes
me a bad parent but that's the way it is. I discussed the choices they
were
thinking they'd like to make and asked them what kind of things they
wanted
people to think about them when they saw them. They both said they
didn't
want people to think they were bad kids and came to baggy shorts which
hang
on their waists as a compromise. I would however have held the line had
they fought me. Yeah that is probably wrong in your (the plural you)
eyes,
but in the end, these kids are my responsibility to raise and I'm not
going
to allow them to glorify criminal behavior simply because they see it as
popular culture. (which btw was a passing fancy and they were quick to
change to something different so I don't know that it was that
overwhelmingly important to them.) I'm not going to let my 3 yr old
dress
like pedophile bait when she's 8 either. There are limits in this
world and
some of them are artificially constructed. Little girls shouldn't be
wearing pants that say "taste me" on the butt. Might work in your
family,
it's not going to work here.
-=-=-=-
Cam was into Goth for a VERY brief period. I went with it. I think
that, because I was so supportive, it didn't last long. I dyed his hair
black for him; I bought him black nail polish; I bought him his own
eye-liner; I bought lots of black clothes. *I* knew he wasn't Goth, but
I helped feed whatever that was that he needed. He went through it
quickly, KNOWING that I respected his need to do and be that for a
while.
It's not that it was overwhelmingly important---but it WAS important
for a while---even though just a passing fancy. He laughs about it now.
He felt validated and valued at the time. It really didn't hurt *me*
any---even though it did "glorify" suicide and death. It wasn't Who He
Was---it was just a....passing fancy and part of popular culture.
There are a lot of "artificial" limits. But I choose not to limit my
life with silly ones.
And as my father says: NO one should be wearing pants with "taste me"
on the butt---NOT just little girls! <G>
=-=-=-=-=-
Re: sex on the couch...you are right. I'm trying to find somewhere
where
someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavior is
OK.
I don't know that I see that as correct. And as I said before I don't
believe that because you raise your child with no limits that they will
automatically become kind sweet wonderful people. There have to be
instances where a child raised to do whatever whenever has gone wrong
but I
doubt anyone will admit to it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I won't admit that Cameron has done anything "wrong." I will say that
he's been busy learning a LOT. NONE of it made him a horrible person.
NOT ONE THING! And knowing that his parents were "in his corner" at all
times encouraged him to BE SMART and be honest and be ....just SMART
and thoughtful about things. He's not rash and reactive---he THINKS
about things. And he has NOTHING to rebel against. Not one thing. We
accept that he will try things.
I think it's dishonest and irresponsible for parents to encourage
independent, explorers throughout childhood and then turn around at 13
and say, "NO! DON'T! STOP!" They're SUPPOSED to keep learning. It's
what they DO! They should just be safe and thoughtful about it!
-=-=-=-
Still, this discussion has been good for
me. It has shown me how to switch my thinking. I am getting there.
This
unlearning stuff is hard work! =)
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---I know!
-=-=-=-=-
I do have to admit to something. For the last 4 days I have said No
only 2
times. Once was because I physically could not take the kids anywhere
(I
have fibromyalgia, Systemic Lupus and Sjogren's Syndrome) and I am
having a
flare. The boys didn't realize how sick I felt so I told them I
couldn't do
it now, but we would do later when I was better. And the other was to
make
brown rice for dinner last night but it takes over an hour and we didn't
have time to do it so I'm making it today.
-=-=-=-=-
Karen, those are REAL limits. Life is FULL of those! We really don't
need to make up arbitrary limits to show kids that there are limits.
They exist. They're THERE!
-=-=-=-=-
The boys have not had one fight
in 4 days. That's amazing. I asked my son (the 11 yr old) about it
and he
said it was because he didn't feel the stress of having to do school
and he
felt less mad. So that's a good thing.
-=-=-=-=-
Of course---you may also be relaxing a bit, and they can *feel*
that---whether you SHOW it or not. They are *feeling* the difference!
Keep in mind that that's what it's like with many of us all the
time---the anxiety's gone. Not 100%----but just saying yes and not
stressing over every little thing. Enjoy your kids and enjoy the
precious little time you have with them. It goes sooo fast!
-=-=-=-=-=-
FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was
uncomfortable
with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop telling him
things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel like you
didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so I
could
give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Not my
part
just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I do there?
-=-=-=-
Karen, NO ONE here has said NO LIMITS!!!!!
We say no *ARBITRARY* limits---can you see the difference???
It's *one* word, but it makes ALL the difference!!!
My children know real limits. They also know when someone is being
arbitrary.
NO ONE has said provide no guidance. We all provide guidance every day!
We are the MOST "guidant" parents you'll ever meet!
Lord, if I stopped "telling" my children things, what would I have left
to say? <g>I just don't TELL them what to do. I give choices. We
discuss options. I tell them my concerns, and they tell me theirs. The
important things is that, if they don't make the same choice *I* would
make, I'm still OK with that. If they made an informed choice (which
turned out poorly) and *learned* something, they can always make a
better choice next time. And it's MUCH better to learn to make those
kinds of decisions when the stakes are so much lower (like kinds of
pants) than when they are life-altering (like buying a house or
choosing a career).
I cannot tell you how much I trust my boys. They are absolutely
incredible learning machines. And they are lucky in that they get to
see me make all kinds of goofy choices---as well as really good ones. I
try to stay as informed about my life AND theirs as I can. But to be
informed in their lives, they MUST trust me. MUST! They need to know
that they can make a bad decision and that I am still in their corners.
I am ALWAYS in their corners. Forever---no matter what. Drugs,
drinking, sex---doesn't matter. I will support them and be there FOR
them. It's important to all of us, and THEY know it. And they didn't
learn that by having me limit them or control *any*thing they did. They
learned it by having the freedom (and natural limits) to make
choices---with my help, always.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 5, 2007, at 6:23 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
same thing as parents telling kids things and providing guidance?
When parents set the limits, they often don't even bother to talk to
the kids about the reasons or provide real guidance - they restrict
in place of those things.
"You may only watch tv for 2 hours per day!" "Why?" "Because too much
tv isn't good for you and it is my job to protect you."
That's not what I'd call guidance. Unschoolers do so much more than
that, without restricting.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he wasThat's too bad if he thinks that parents restricting things is the
> uncomfortable
> with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop telling
> him
> things and to stop providing guidance.
same thing as parents telling kids things and providing guidance?
When parents set the limits, they often don't even bother to talk to
the kids about the reasons or provide real guidance - they restrict
in place of those things.
"You may only watch tv for 2 hours per day!" "Why?" "Because too much
tv isn't good for you and it is my job to protect you."
That's not what I'd call guidance. Unschoolers do so much more than
that, without restricting.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~"We're like actors, turned loose in this world to wander in search
of a phantom, endlessly searching for a half formed shadow of our lost
reality. When others demand that we become the people they want us to
be, they force us to destroy the person we really are. It's a subtle
kind of murder. The most loving parents and relatives commit this
murder with smiles on their faces."
-Jim Morrison (1943-1971)~~
How cool that you posted this Karen! I read this at the RE conference
last month. LOVE it.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
of a phantom, endlessly searching for a half formed shadow of our lost
reality. When others demand that we become the people they want us to
be, they force us to destroy the person we really are. It's a subtle
kind of murder. The most loving parents and relatives commit this
murder with smiles on their faces."
-Jim Morrison (1943-1971)~~
How cool that you posted this Karen! I read this at the RE conference
last month. LOVE it.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~I suppose I'm not as far off as I feel I might be...but I still feel
as though a lot of people on here think I'm a horrible parent who is
continually stepping on the neck of my boys. ~~
I doubt anyone here thinks you're a horrible anything, much less a
horrible parent. This list attracts the most AWESOME parents and is
intended to dig really deep into mindful parenting and unschooling. We
all get to take it up a notch here, or examine things more closely or
whatever it is that we need at the moment.
So just because people are examining (and man is that uncomfortable
when it's about parenting, something so very close to our hearts) and
questioning does not mean they think badly of you at all.
Quite the contrary. For everything that's been thrown at you, I think
you're quite willing to examine it, think about it and streeeeetch
your boundaries. Cool.:)
~~That is what I've been saying....whatever they want. Regardless of
anything. Don't feed healthy foods because you will create an eating
disorder. Don't give bed times. Don't ask a child to pick things up.
Don't...Don't...Don't...Don't...for ME but for kids it's ANYTHING
ANYTHING ANYTHING!!! ~~
I think this is where you're getting stuck. First of all, find me a
quote where somebody says "don't feed healthy foods". It doesn't
exist. Find me a quote that says "don't ask a child to pick up". It
doesn't exist.
I understand how difficult it is to shift from mainstream
put-my-foot-down-because-I-said-so kind of parenting, to the idea of
partnering with children but many of us have been there.:)
Where you're getting stuck (correct me if I'm wrong) is when we say
"try to parter WITH your child" you're hearing "never stop them". But
that isn't what is being said.
Think of the relationships you have with other adults. Yes, you might
casually ask them to pick up some laundry on the floor, no big deal.
But if they don't do it, would you pull out the "I'm bigger and
stronger so I'll force you to do it" card? Probably not. I know that's
not the kind of relationships I want in my life.
Kids have different priorities than we do. They SHOULD. The way I put
this to my spouse (who still disagrees about some of these things) is
a more logical way. What takes more energy: going around the house and
making people pick up their laundry, or just picking it up and
throwing it in the dirty clothes basket? What takes more energy;
finding out who left the milk out, or simply putting it back in the
fridge and reminding someone?
There are SO many things that are less energy to just DO. There are SO
many things that if you knew you or your child were going to die
tomorrow, would become irrelevant. The things we focus on are really
such silly things in the light of death.
Asking a person to do something is pretty normal around here. Nagging
them is not. Reminding someone about an agreement they made is common.
Forcing is not. I happily help them with their rooms or with art
messes or whatever it is they are doing. In turn, I usually have
helpers too. If not, I recognize it as MY priority and they should not
have to adopt my standards just because I'm their parent.
We run into real life limits all the time. How we react to those
limits is vastly different than most mainstream families I see in
action. I still screw up. My kids know I'm not perfect (gasp).
Just last night I pulled a "Jalen, if you brush your teeth now you can
stay up and game with Jared longer"...
his teeth are pretty bad and I really care about getting them clean
once in a while...he really doesn't care. My dh smirks and says "ooh,
I hear a manipulation at work"
Yep. It was. I apologized to Jalen and said "What I meant was, if you
brush your teeth now you won't have to worry about it when you come
down to bed because I won't be up to help you." I was trying to offer
the gaming as a way to get him to brush his teeth. What can I
say?...being tired and out-of-sorts caused a falling back on old
behaviors I really thought were easy to avoid. It happens. Less
often...but my kids or dh usually point it out happily.:)
If the last four days were better in your home, then maybe everyone
here is onto something. Something life changing. Something that makes
your family life even better. Maybe, just maybe there is a seed of
truth that is taking hold? Maybe if you keep questioning and hearing
examples it will make more sense? Maybe.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
as though a lot of people on here think I'm a horrible parent who is
continually stepping on the neck of my boys. ~~
I doubt anyone here thinks you're a horrible anything, much less a
horrible parent. This list attracts the most AWESOME parents and is
intended to dig really deep into mindful parenting and unschooling. We
all get to take it up a notch here, or examine things more closely or
whatever it is that we need at the moment.
So just because people are examining (and man is that uncomfortable
when it's about parenting, something so very close to our hearts) and
questioning does not mean they think badly of you at all.
Quite the contrary. For everything that's been thrown at you, I think
you're quite willing to examine it, think about it and streeeeetch
your boundaries. Cool.:)
~~That is what I've been saying....whatever they want. Regardless of
anything. Don't feed healthy foods because you will create an eating
disorder. Don't give bed times. Don't ask a child to pick things up.
Don't...Don't...Don't...Don't...for ME but for kids it's ANYTHING
ANYTHING ANYTHING!!! ~~
I think this is where you're getting stuck. First of all, find me a
quote where somebody says "don't feed healthy foods". It doesn't
exist. Find me a quote that says "don't ask a child to pick up". It
doesn't exist.
I understand how difficult it is to shift from mainstream
put-my-foot-down-because-I-said-so kind of parenting, to the idea of
partnering with children but many of us have been there.:)
Where you're getting stuck (correct me if I'm wrong) is when we say
"try to parter WITH your child" you're hearing "never stop them". But
that isn't what is being said.
Think of the relationships you have with other adults. Yes, you might
casually ask them to pick up some laundry on the floor, no big deal.
But if they don't do it, would you pull out the "I'm bigger and
stronger so I'll force you to do it" card? Probably not. I know that's
not the kind of relationships I want in my life.
Kids have different priorities than we do. They SHOULD. The way I put
this to my spouse (who still disagrees about some of these things) is
a more logical way. What takes more energy: going around the house and
making people pick up their laundry, or just picking it up and
throwing it in the dirty clothes basket? What takes more energy;
finding out who left the milk out, or simply putting it back in the
fridge and reminding someone?
There are SO many things that are less energy to just DO. There are SO
many things that if you knew you or your child were going to die
tomorrow, would become irrelevant. The things we focus on are really
such silly things in the light of death.
Asking a person to do something is pretty normal around here. Nagging
them is not. Reminding someone about an agreement they made is common.
Forcing is not. I happily help them with their rooms or with art
messes or whatever it is they are doing. In turn, I usually have
helpers too. If not, I recognize it as MY priority and they should not
have to adopt my standards just because I'm their parent.
We run into real life limits all the time. How we react to those
limits is vastly different than most mainstream families I see in
action. I still screw up. My kids know I'm not perfect (gasp).
Just last night I pulled a "Jalen, if you brush your teeth now you can
stay up and game with Jared longer"...
his teeth are pretty bad and I really care about getting them clean
once in a while...he really doesn't care. My dh smirks and says "ooh,
I hear a manipulation at work"
Yep. It was. I apologized to Jalen and said "What I meant was, if you
brush your teeth now you won't have to worry about it when you come
down to bed because I won't be up to help you." I was trying to offer
the gaming as a way to get him to brush his teeth. What can I
say?...being tired and out-of-sorts caused a falling back on old
behaviors I really thought were easy to avoid. It happens. Less
often...but my kids or dh usually point it out happily.:)
If the last four days were better in your home, then maybe everyone
here is onto something. Something life changing. Something that makes
your family life even better. Maybe, just maybe there is a seed of
truth that is taking hold? Maybe if you keep questioning and hearing
examples it will make more sense? Maybe.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 5, 2007, at 11:26 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
want to be healthy, happy, loved, respected, etc.
won't be in your control. You're in complete denial if you think
ordering your 15 yo not to have sex means he won't. And, if you've
done a lot of ordering and commanding and demanding, you may have
built up so much resistance that he'll do it just to prove you can't
any longer control him.
health, safety, morality, spirituality, psychology, and on and on.
You seem to think we support every possible urge they might have, but
what we do is support the interests that they want us to support. My
kids did are normal healthy humans and have sexual feelings, but they
didn't want to have sex at too young an age and they definitely
aren't interested in their parents supporting that.
Do we guide our kids at all? (But, maybe you still mean something
different by "guide" - maybe you still are equating guidance with
saying no/setting limits?)
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And that is exactly why I'm stuck...kids will want to do something andKids will want to do something wrong, you mean? Why would they? They
> to respect what they want to do and help them do it no matter what
> seems wrong.
want to be healthy, happy, loved, respected, etc.
> It's the "no matter what" that has me. 15 yr old boysAnd if they do decide to do that, you won't be able to stop them. It
> want to have sex.
won't be in your control. You're in complete denial if you think
ordering your 15 yo not to have sex means he won't. And, if you've
done a lot of ordering and commanding and demanding, you may have
built up so much resistance that he'll do it just to prove you can't
any longer control him.
> That's biological drive. Do you help your kidsWe have talked about sex - we've talked about all the ramifications -
> achieve that?
health, safety, morality, spirituality, psychology, and on and on.
You seem to think we support every possible urge they might have, but
what we do is support the interests that they want us to support. My
kids did are normal healthy humans and have sexual feelings, but they
didn't want to have sex at too young an age and they definitely
aren't interested in their parents supporting that.
> Give them pornography? Time alone with a girlfriend?I can't understand how you can still be asking this kind of question.
> I mean, do you guide your kids at all with morals, ethics and values
> or no? And no this isn't an extreme example, it's an honest to
> goodness question.
Do we guide our kids at all? (But, maybe you still mean something
different by "guide" - maybe you still are equating guidance with
saying no/setting limits?)
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
momma
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
that everyone everyone deserves courtesy but people earn respect.
There is a difference. Respect is like love. It is something you feel
towards someone else. You can't demand respect anymore that you can
demand love. (I am in no way thinking that this is where you are
coming from. Just my own thoughts on the subject of respect in
general.) I would be shocked if my children didn't treat me with
respect. Not angry with them but wonder what I could have done to
loose thier respect. How I had damaged our relationship?
I am not here to pick up my son's underwear off
through what has been a very difficult pregnancy. For the first 3
months I was sick on the couch. We hardly left the house at all. It
has really been a team effort. My 11 year old and 8 year old kept
everything running while I was down. My son cooked for me and his
sister and my 8 year old helped pick up the house. I asked a lot of
them and my husband for months. They never hesitated to help. I ask
my kids to help empty the dishwasher pretty regularly and help with
laundry. I don't see anything wrong with asking the people who live
in the home for help-husband and children alike. It's definatly not a
one person job.
people were nuts <g>. It took me a little while to realize that what
I was already doing wasn't so different. What I did learn here was to
change the way I saw my children and situations. I didn't jump in
with both feet. I took small steps and made small changes. I started
really thinking about my approach to situations and my relationship
with my children. During the process I saw changes in my children and
in our relationships. It was like a pebble tossed into a pond. Small
changes led to more changes. It was sort of a natural progression.
Aubrey
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>always
> This did help. This is what I've been doing all along. I have
> treated my kids with more respect than I was treated with as achild. But
> the part of that I see missing here, and again it could be the waythings
> are being said back and forth is that with the respect I give tothem, I
> expect the same in return.One of the things that my children and I have talked about a lot is
that everyone everyone deserves courtesy but people earn respect.
There is a difference. Respect is like love. It is something you feel
towards someone else. You can't demand respect anymore that you can
demand love. (I am in no way thinking that this is where you are
coming from. Just my own thoughts on the subject of respect in
general.) I would be shocked if my children didn't treat me with
respect. Not angry with them but wonder what I could have done to
loose thier respect. How I had damaged our relationship?
I am not here to pick up my son's underwear off
> the bathroom floor when he's stepped over it 10 times thismorning. Could I
> have picked it up? Sure. Have I picked it up in the past? Yes.But this
> morning, I noticed it when I was on my way to the shower and I saidto (this
> is the 11yr old) "Hey, I noticed your underwear and sleep shirt onthe floor
> in the bathroom, could you pick that up please?" And then I toldhim I was
> getting into the shower. That isn't any different than I wouldhave spoken
> to my husband, mother, or friend.I ask my children to help out around the house. Right now I am going
through what has been a very difficult pregnancy. For the first 3
months I was sick on the couch. We hardly left the house at all. It
has really been a team effort. My 11 year old and 8 year old kept
everything running while I was down. My son cooked for me and his
sister and my 8 year old helped pick up the house. I asked a lot of
them and my husband for months. They never hesitated to help. I ask
my kids to help empty the dishwasher pretty regularly and help with
laundry. I don't see anything wrong with asking the people who live
in the home for help-husband and children alike. It's definatly not a
one person job.
> I suppose I'm not as far off as I feel I might be...but I stillfeel as
> though a lot of people on here think I'm a horrible parent who iswill shift
> continually stepping on the neck of my boys. Perhaps in time I
> my thinking on baggy pants and other things I have that are rigid.I do
> have to remind myself it's been 4 days. That's not a long time toundo 36
> yrs of training.To be perfectly honest, when I joined this group I thought these
people were nuts <g>. It took me a little while to realize that what
I was already doing wasn't so different. What I did learn here was to
change the way I saw my children and situations. I didn't jump in
with both feet. I took small steps and made small changes. I started
really thinking about my approach to situations and my relationship
with my children. During the process I saw changes in my children and
in our relationships. It was like a pebble tossed into a pond. Small
changes led to more changes. It was sort of a natural progression.
Aubrey
[email protected]
I'm still going to go back and respond to old posts, but I don't want
these to get away! <bwg>
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
these to get away! <bwg>
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
On 10/5/07, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> On Oct 5, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:
> No smoking. No underage drinking. No Drinking and driving.
> And how how how are you going to do that?
> If control worked, the world would be full of model citizens.
> Seriously. Control is so simple that the most neophyte parent can
> figure it out.
**I was not mindfully parented and I did not do any of that.
-=-=-=-=-
I was not mindfully parented, and I never smoked anything, and did not
have sex until I was legally an adult. But I did drink---and drink and
drive, and drive and ride with others drunker than I was.
Stupid.
But my brother did all that and more. Same parents.
I bet you knew some preacher's kids, though, huh??? <bwg>
But my father told me that I should not drive after more than two
drinks. Unfortunately, *HE* drove after more than two drinks, and I
really didn't believe him when he said that he would come get me. I
made *sure* Cameron KNEW it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
They know their parents will help them do whatever
> they want.
** That is what I've been saying....whatever they want. Regardless of
anything. Don't feed healthy foods because you will create an eating
disorder.
-=-=-=-=-
No!
We choose to offer *all* foods and not make *some* foods out to be
"bad" or dangerous or scary or verboten.
We discuss our knowledge of foods, how we feel when we eat certain
things, what's healthful and what's not. We don't vilify certain foods,
we don't force and foods on our children, and we try to model good
eating habits ourselves.
-=-=-=-
Don't give bed times.
-==-=-
No!
We do not live in our children's bodies. We cannot *know* how they feel
inside. But we can take their cues and work *with* them: we can turn
the lights low, we can turn on soft music, we can sing lullabies, we
can read sweet books, we can snuggle and cuddle and tell stories. We
can make the room "sleepy."
When they are older, we can ask that they be quiet during certain
hours, but we really can't *make* anyone go to sleep. Children will
sleep when they are tired. Forcing bedtimes does NOT help someone learn
his body's own cues for sleep. Both my boys know when they are tired.
They sleep until they are rested. Cam's at about ten hours/day right
now. Dunc's at about 12. If they don't get that many at night, each
will take a nap. Because they know they need rest. They can feel it.
-=-=-=-=-
Don't ask a child to pick things up.
-=-=-=-=-
No!
Ask, but be OK with a negative answer---for a while. Kids who are used
to being MADE to clean up will refuse for a long while until they trust
and believe that you are serious---that they actually *have a choice*.
But asking as a way of commanding will NOT make for happy helpers.
MODELING happy helping *yourself* will! Go figure!
-=-=-=-=-=
Don't...Don't...Don't...Don't...for ME but for kids it's ANYTHING
ANYTHING ANYTHING!!!
-=-=-=-=-
You *really* ain't getting it!
It's truly a paradigm shift in your thinking. Changing the way we think
about eating and sleeping and cleaning (you above examples)---which are
ALL natural things for humans---is hard if we, ourselves, have been
controlled.
Do you eat when you are hungry---not putting it off due to a time
schedule? or do you eat when you aren't hungry because you're out with
friends and everyone's ordering? To you honor your hunger? Do you know
when to stop?
As a controlled child, I'm just now figuring it out. My boys GET it!
They only eat when they are hungry and quit just before they are full.
They never over-eat, and we work really hard to get food IN them as
soon as they voice their hunger. Although I indulged their McDonald's
cravings when they were little, neither will eat there now. Duncan just
announced that *he* too was a vegetarian four days ago. (Ugh---major
crimp in *my* meal plans---omnivore that I am! <G>) But I honor that
and try to make as many protien-full meals as I can to hep meet their
dietary needs. That's my job
But indulging in McDonald's did NOT make them fast-food junkies as I
was told it would. Nor did giving them total access to Hershey bars,
M&Ms, and Skittles make them choco- or candy-holics. That candy has
been here for weeks now. It's only eaten when one of us has overstepped
our food needs and not actually MADE food---we've just grabbed what's
handy and easy. But we ALL know this, and we know that, when we reach
into the candy bowl, we really need some FOOD. Oh---and it's also eaten
when we have guests who are limited---*they* clean us out!
-=-=-=-=-
I'm not trying to be difficult and I'm feeling
quite stupid which is not a usual feeling for me. I simply can not
see how this actually works. If a child is allowed, encouraged, not
guided away from anything they want to do, then how can you (anyone
not just you) say things will never go wrong?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Paradigm shift! Change how you word/think about things:
Things don't "go wrong"---sometimes we make bad decisions.
They aren't MIStakes; they are LEARNINGtakes, and we get to make a
better choice next time.
You're saying: if I don't tell my child how to do it RIGHT, he'll never
know how to do it right and he'll be lost forever.
You *THINK* I'm saying that if I leave them completely alone, they will
do it all right every time.
What I'm *really* saying is that I give guidance, my opinions, my
encouragement, and my help. My *CHILD* gets to make his own decisions
with all that information. Sometimes he makes a bad decision. *Many*
times he makes wonderful decisions. Either way, he's LEARNING what
works and what doesn't. Sometimes *my* advice sucks. That's good for
him to know too---that I don't really know everything.
If something *does* "go wrong," he knows I'm RIGHT there to help get
him out of the jam. It's NOT sink or swim in my family. I'm nearby with
the life raft if he needs it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I am not making the
assumption that controlled children are better or I wouldn't have
signed up for this list. I am searching for ways for us all to be
more happy and have more peace. This is just a huge thing for me. It
feels like abdicating all responsibility and that seems like beign
neglect.
-=-=-=-=-=-
If you are abdicating all responsibility, that *IS* huge old MALIGN
neglect---nothing BEnign about it!
We don't want you to abdicate responsibility! We want to you accept
that your children are your responsibility. But your children are more
than capable NOW of making decsions that affect them. Your
responsibility is to help them be the best people they can be *now*.
Learning those little learning-takes now will help them as they get
older. Baby-steps. Little decisions now, bigger ones next year, honking
big ones in five years. Choosing a spouse will be easy! <G>
We want you to see that you can only control children as long as you
are BY THEIR SIDES all the time. As soon as *they* can make decisions
*away* from you, what kind of control do you have then? And will they
have good decision-making heads on their shoulders or will that be the
first time they've had to make *any* REAL decision at all?
Wouldn't it be better to hand over some of those decision-MAKING
responsibilities to THEM now so that they have that capability then?
(Simple things like sleeping and eating and cleaning their rooms?) Or
would you rather keep controlling what they do up until the time they
are free of your arbitrary rules?
-=-=-=-=-=-
** I do not believe kids are inherently wrong. They are inherently
ignorant.
-=-=-=-=-
So your plan is to make all their decisions *for* them until they make
the same decisions *you* would? <g> Good luck with that! You can't even
decide on britches! <G>
-=-=-=-=-=-
We are not born knowing that stoves are hot, that putting
beans in your nose can be uncomfortable and dangerous.
-=-=-=-=-
Nope, but a little experimentation goes a long LONG way!!!
I remember holding Dunc's hand over the hot burner. He KNEW it was
hot---he could tell, and he pulled his hand away as fast and as hard as
he could.
Neither of mine ever put things up their noses. I know some kids do.
But a trip to the doc and its removal will keep many from doing it
again.
-=-=-=-=-
Children have to be taught these things.
-=-=-=-=-
NononononoNO!
Children LEARN these things.
Big difference, and one that will make or break unschooling.
-=-=-=-=-
And when I read "let them do what they
want" that says to me "don't stop them from anything" Is there
another option? I know one of my hobgoblins is black and white
thinking so this could be my stumbling point.
-=-=-=-=-=-
SOOO black & white. And I'm a black & white thinker too----but you beat
me by a loooong shot!
HELP them do what they want. They will find a way withOUT your help!
You can be the hindrance, if you choose (but they may still choose
it---just after you are no longer in control). OR you can be the
partner that inspires and encourages.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
And that is exactly why I'm stuck...kids will want to do something and
to respect what they want to do and help them do it no matter what
seems wrong. It's the "no matter what" that has me.
-=-=-=-=-=
If they know you will help them achieve what they want, they will share
that with you, and you can give your opinion and even find someone who
is more knowledgable than you are to help. You can share your concerns
and find the safest way to do it. If they trust that you are their
partner, they will take your concerns seriously. They will also want
*you* to be comfortable with their decisions.
BUT if you have been a hindrance all their childhoods, why bother even
telling you want they are up to?
-=-=-=-=-=-
15 yr old boys
want to have sex. That's biological drive. Do you help your kids
achieve that? Give them pornography? Time alone with a girlfriend?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Not all 15 year old boys want to have sex. Sex IS a biological
drive---and certainly age-appropriate! <g>
I talked with my then-15 year old son about it. I got him several books
from the library on the changing body. I answered any and all questions
he had on the subject---even the very uncomfortable ones! I supplied
condoms. I offered a gyno appiontment for the girlfriend. He never
asked for pornography, but I did find one or two magazines. We
discussed the good and bad of them and how/why they are made. I didn't
mind leaving them in the house for a bit when I ran errands. We *still*
talk about sex and babies and birth and STDs. There is NO question
off-limits. I answer to the best of my ability.
Again, SAFETY is THE most important aspect. I'd rather KNOW what he's
doing and with whom than be in the dark about such an important part of
his life.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
I mean, do you guide your kids at all with morals, ethics and values
or no? And no this isn't an extreme example, it's an honest to
goodness question.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, it IS extreme. But it's answerable.
And we talk ALL the time about morals, ethics, and values. Cameron's on
a much higher plane with regards to ethics and values than I am. <g>
Morals are crap. Kind of like Rules. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
rpindc04
Wow - you give me a lot to think about. With a 10-year old, just
starting homeschooling and changing parenting ideas now, this makes
my jaw drop. As with so much I read, it sounds great when writing
with hindsight. Question - how do make it day-to-day, when, for
instance, you don't know that Goth will be a short phase? I hear a
potential answer is "Trust your child." Does that get easier? I have
such a visceral reaction to some things, that I think it will be
harder to do that when some teen age issues come into the house. For
instance, I find some fashions incredibly unattractive. I don't want
to have to look at them. How do you deal with the fact that you,
personally, think something is a bad choice, less than healthy, or
unattractive/uncomfortable to live with in your own home?
Robbin
starting homeschooling and changing parenting ideas now, this makes
my jaw drop. As with so much I read, it sounds great when writing
with hindsight. Question - how do make it day-to-day, when, for
instance, you don't know that Goth will be a short phase? I hear a
potential answer is "Trust your child." Does that get easier? I have
such a visceral reaction to some things, that I think it will be
harder to do that when some teen age issues come into the house. For
instance, I find some fashions incredibly unattractive. I don't want
to have to look at them. How do you deal with the fact that you,
personally, think something is a bad choice, less than healthy, or
unattractive/uncomfortable to live with in your own home?
Robbin
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> I've been foolowing this thread closely, but I've been really,
really
> busy. I will answer all the other posts as well, but I thought I
> needed to chime in now.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
>
> Well I know they don't because they are 11 and 9 and they aren't
ever
> out of
> my sight. One of the downsides to being home with me all the time
is
> they
> are with me all the time.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> At nine and 11, they should be with you a LOT.
>
> But what happens when they turn 14 and 16? They will most likely
NOT be
> with you as much. You will have less and less control each year---
as it
> *should* be! How do you plan to monitor what they do?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I hear what is being said now about no and yes. I don't know that I
> completely buy that all kids raised this way will *never* want to do
> something that is completely inappropriate, ie illegal drugs,
underage
> drinking etc...but maybe this is OK with you all and you allow it.
I
> don't
> know.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> And...................this is my cue! <g>
>
> Frankly, I could've said I won't "allow" it. But as I've said soooo
> many times: I'm not that stupid (not saying that *you* are! It's
just
> something I've said for years about this very subject.). I'm not so
> stupid to think that *I* can control what someone else---even if
it's
> my own kid---does. I CAN NOT. It's just not possible. I can only
> control *me*.
>
> As soon as that driver's license kicks in, parents are OUT of the
loop
> unless they've made it a PRIORITY to be trusted confidantes.
>
> My 19 year old, Cameron, was in school until the end of sixth
> grade---private prep school. We had a long deschooling process, but
we
> worked really hard to repair the damage. His best buds though were
> *all* schooled kids.
>
> Now, *I* don't think of teen sex, drugs, and drinking as
> "innappropriate" at all. I think they are *natural* progressions in
> life. NOT that *everyone* will do them (nor that anyone really
> *should*!), but that that is the age when it is---well, <g>
> "age-appropriate"! <G> They WILL try new things---and epecially
things
> that they have never experienced before. I really, really DO think
it's
> natural. That doesn't make them any less potentially dangerous (not
> that any of them are inherently dangerous---just potentially). Just
> something that *I* really didn't want to shut down communication
about.
>
> In fact, I'd rather shut down conversations on almost *anything*
> else!!! But what do parents forbid? Yep---the very thing we need to
BE
> present for. The very things our children want more info on. What
do
> the children get from their parents instead? "Don't even THINK
about
> drinking/drugs/sex!" THose are the VERY things we need to be as
> involved in as possible.
>
>
> So---I had a son (and there's no one here who has met him that
doesn't
> know him to be kind and gentle and responsible and---just all-round
> great guy! He really is. I'd think that if he weren't my first-
born!
> I'm just lucky enough to have given birth to him!). So I have this
son
> who drank, smoked pot, and had sex before he was 18.
>
> The world didn't end.
>
> Would I have been happier if he hadn't? I don't know. I think he
> learned a LOT. And none of it made him a less perfect, amazing
person.
> Seriously.
>
> He still will have an occasional high-end beer if we're having a
party.
> He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He and his
girlfriend
> may have a beer at friends' houses (how would I know exactly?? He's
now
> 19---still under-age, but I know I truly have no control!). But
he's
> gotten drunk only once, and he's not a big fan of alcohol. It's
really
> not an issue.
>
> Pot---he had a while when he smoked a good bit. We talked a LOT
about
> it. I've never smoked (I'm 47 and one of the few people my age that
I
> know who haven't ever toked), so I had very little experience with
it.
> My husband smoked a bit in high school and was skeptical of my
tactics.
> My GOAL was that Cameron be safe. Number One goal is safety. Cam
KNOWS
> that. NOTHING is more important to me than his welfare.
>
> I'm stressing this because he knows it---and he knows that I will
do
> ANYTHING to keep him safe. I canNOT stop him from being a teen and
> experimenting. I CAN, though BE there for him and make sure he gets
> home in one piece.
>
> SO----if he was at a friend's and smoked, he would CALL me. I would
go
> get him. We did this many, many times. I didn't ridicule him or
yell at
> him or make him feel that it would be safer to drive himself home
and
> hide it from me. I'd rather KNOW where he was, with whom, and what
they
> were doing than be in the dark about his life---as all his friends'
> parents were. Cameron felt safe and valued. His learning never went
too
> far (as his friends' did). We talked about where to buy pot, from
whom,
> about organic pot, about what people could put in it. I put him in
> touch with friends of mine who still smoked. They gave him GOOD
advice
> on what and whom to avoid and ansered many questions about it that
I
> didn't know. He shared that with me as well.
>
> He joined NORML to try to get hemp and pot legalized. He learned a
LOT
> about its production and prohibition. He's a knowledgable consumer.
<g>
> Again---safety and knowledge are so key!
>
> I don't feel that I "faciliated" his pot-smoking, but I do feel he
made
> better decisions about it because of me and my openness. I wouldn't
buy
> it for him, and we talked about his jeopardizing our unschooling of
his
> little brother if he were to get caught. It was a VERY serious
subject
> here, and he took *his* responsibility with it very, very seriously.
>
> Sex. He's been sexually active for a while. Long-term girlfriend---
over
> four years now? He didn't tell me before, but *just* afterwards. It
> wasn't unplanned---they had talked about it for quite a while. Do
*I*
> feel it was too soon? As a parent, of course I do! <G> He should be
35,
> right? But we've talked about sex from every angle. He's gentle
and
> sweet with Carly, and they love each other. Exactly HOW is a parent
> planning to *stop* a teen from having sex? Again, the *best* thing
I
> can do is to make sure he's informed and safe. Santa gives condoms
in
> his stocking---did for several years before he was sexually active.
But
> all his friends knew that there was a "stash" in the upstairs
> bathroom---there for the taking. I told Carly I'd take her to the
> gynocologist if her mother wouldn't.
>
> OPEN, HONEST Communication is THE most important thing we have
going. I
> wouldn't trade THAT for all the non-smoking/non-drinking virgins in
the
> world!
>
> So, YES, some kids DO these things---even IF they are honored and
> respected and trusted. (He *was* schooled though for eight years,
so
> it's hard to know what would have happened had he never been in
> school---I'll let you know how it goes with his alway-unschooled
> brother! <g>)
>
> OK---back to the regularly scheduled issues:
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> FWIW the sofa thing I did validate Liam's feelings because the sofa
I
> wanted
> was 9K and white leather and I couldn't get it either. We talked
about
> how
> nice it would be but we didn't have the space nor the money for
either
> one.
> He was disappointed but I was too. He didn't cry over it and I
don't
> believe it left a lasting scar. But in the end those are the
limits we
> have, time, space and money and I don't have control over those.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> REAL limits. See? They *do* exist! <bwg>
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> RE: pants. It's not going to happen. I'm not allowing my children
to
> dress
> like gang members because they think it might be cool. That
probably
> makes
> me a bad parent but that's the way it is. I discussed the choices
they
> were
> thinking they'd like to make and asked them what kind of things
they
> wanted
> people to think about them when they saw them. They both said they
> didn't
> want people to think they were bad kids and came to baggy shorts
which
> hang
> on their waists as a compromise. I would however have held the
line had
> they fought me. Yeah that is probably wrong in your (the plural
you)
> eyes,
> but in the end, these kids are my responsibility to raise and I'm
not
> going
> to allow them to glorify criminal behavior simply because they see
it as
> popular culture. (which btw was a passing fancy and they were
quick to
> change to something different so I don't know that it was that
> overwhelmingly important to them.) I'm not going to let my 3 yr
old
> dress
> like pedophile bait when she's 8 either. There are limits in this
> world and
> some of them are artificially constructed. Little girls shouldn't
be
> wearing pants that say "taste me" on the butt. Might work in your
> family,
> it's not going to work here.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Cam was into Goth for a VERY brief period. I went with it. I think
> that, because I was so supportive, it didn't last long. I dyed his
hair
> black for him; I bought him black nail polish; I bought him his own
> eye-liner; I bought lots of black clothes. *I* knew he wasn't Goth,
but
> I helped feed whatever that was that he needed. He went through it
> quickly, KNOWING that I respected his need to do and be that for a
> while.
>
> It's not that it was overwhelmingly important---but it WAS
important
> for a while---even though just a passing fancy. He laughs about it
now.
> He felt validated and valued at the time. It really didn't hurt
*me*
> any---even though it did "glorify" suicide and death. It wasn't Who
He
> Was---it was just a....passing fancy and part of popular culture.
>
> There are a lot of "artificial" limits. But I choose not to limit
my
> life with silly ones.
>
> And as my father says: NO one should be wearing pants with "taste
me"
> on the butt---NOT just little girls! <G>
>
> =-=-=-=-=-
>
> Re: sex on the couch...you are right. I'm trying to find somewhere
> where
> someone says "no" but apparently that doesn't happen. All behavior
is
> OK.
> I don't know that I see that as correct. And as I said before I
don't
> believe that because you raise your child with no limits that they
will
> automatically become kind sweet wonderful people. There have to be
> instances where a child raised to do whatever whenever has gone
wrong
> but I
> doubt anyone will admit to it.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I won't admit that Cameron has done anything "wrong." I will say
that
> he's been busy learning a LOT. NONE of it made him a horrible
person.
> NOT ONE THING! And knowing that his parents were "in his corner" at
all
> times encouraged him to BE SMART and be honest and be ....just
SMART
> and thoughtful about things. He's not rash and reactive---he THINKS
> about things. And he has NOTHING to rebel against. Not one thing.
We
> accept that he will try things.
>
> I think it's dishonest and irresponsible for parents to encourage
> independent, explorers throughout childhood and then turn around
at 13
> and say, "NO! DON'T! STOP!" They're SUPPOSED to keep learning. It's
> what they DO! They should just be safe and thoughtful about it!
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Still, this discussion has been good for
> me. It has shown me how to switch my thinking. I am getting
there.
> This
> unlearning stuff is hard work! =)
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Yeah---I know!
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I do have to admit to something. For the last 4 days I have said
No
> only 2
> times. Once was because I physically could not take the kids
anywhere
> (I
> have fibromyalgia, Systemic Lupus and Sjogren's Syndrome) and I am
> having a
> flare. The boys didn't realize how sick I felt so I told them I
> couldn't do
> it now, but we would do later when I was better. And the other was
to
> make
> brown rice for dinner last night but it takes over an hour and we
didn't
> have time to do it so I'm making it today.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Karen, those are REAL limits. Life is FULL of those! We really
don't
> need to make up arbitrary limits to show kids that there are
limits.
> They exist. They're THERE!
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> The boys have not had one fight
> in 4 days. That's amazing. I asked my son (the 11 yr old) about
it
> and he
> said it was because he didn't feel the stress of having to do
school
> and he
> felt less mad. So that's a good thing.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Of course---you may also be relaxing a bit, and they can *feel*
> that---whether you SHOW it or not. They are *feeling* the
difference!
>
> Keep in mind that that's what it's like with many of us all the
> time---the anxiety's gone. Not 100%----but just saying yes and not
> stressing over every little thing. Enjoy your kids and enjoy the
> precious little time you have with them. It goes sooo fast!
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> FTR I also asked the 11 yr old about "no limits" and he was
> uncomfortable
> with that. He said he didn't want me and my husband to stop
telling him
> things and to stop providing guidance. He said "It would feel like
you
> didn't care what happened to me." And I read him these posts so I
> could
> give him the information without my bias getting in his way. (Not
my
> part
> just the answers with all identifiers removed.) So, what do I do
there?
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Karen, NO ONE here has said NO LIMITS!!!!!
>
> We say no *ARBITRARY* limits---can you see the difference???
>
> It's *one* word, but it makes ALL the difference!!!
>
> My children know real limits. They also know when someone is being
> arbitrary.
>
> NO ONE has said provide no guidance. We all provide guidance every
day!
> We are the MOST "guidant" parents you'll ever meet!
>
> Lord, if I stopped "telling" my children things, what would I have
left
> to say? <g>I just don't TELL them what to do. I give choices. We
> discuss options. I tell them my concerns, and they tell me theirs.
The
> important things is that, if they don't make the same choice *I*
would
> make, I'm still OK with that. If they made an informed choice
(which
> turned out poorly) and *learned* something, they can always make a
> better choice next time. And it's MUCH better to learn to make
those
> kinds of decisions when the stakes are so much lower (like kinds of
> pants) than when they are life-altering (like buying a house or
> choosing a career).
>
> I cannot tell you how much I trust my boys. They are absolutely
> incredible learning machines. And they are lucky in that they get
to
> see me make all kinds of goofy choices---as well as really good
ones. I
> try to stay as informed about my life AND theirs as I can. But to
be
> informed in their lives, they MUST trust me. MUST! They need to
know
> that they can make a bad decision and that I am still in their
corners.
> I am ALWAYS in their corners. Forever---no matter what. Drugs,
> drinking, sex---doesn't matter. I will support them and be there
FOR
> them. It's important to all of us, and THEY know it. And they
didn't
> learn that by having me limit them or control *any*thing they did.
They
> learned it by having the freedom (and natural limits) to make
> choices---with my help, always.
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
Mail! -
> http://mail.aol.com
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
But
the part of that I see missing here, and again it could be the way
things
are being said back and forth is that with the respect I give to them, I
expect the same in return.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, in tradtional parenting, you get that respect simply by being the
parent and having been on the planet for a very long time. You don't
have the show the child respect until he shows it to you 100% of the
time.
In gentle parenting, the CHILD gets respect simply because he's the
child and has only been on this planet for a very short while. He
doesn't have to show you respect until you've earned it. <g>
The funny thing is: it doesn't take long to show genuine respect to
someone who is respectful to you.
I think it's best to back off on what I expect of the child until I
have shown him that I am worthy of respect and trust.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I am not here to pick up my son's underwear off
the bathroom floor when he's stepped over it 10 times this morning.
Could I
have picked it up? Sure. Have I picked it up in the past? Yes. But
this
morning, I noticed it when I was on my way to the shower and I said to
(this
is the 11yr old) "Hey, I noticed your underwear and sleep shirt on the
floor
in the bathroom, could you pick that up please?" And then I told him I
was
getting into the shower. That isn't any different than I would have
spoken
to my husband, mother, or friend. They dropped it they can bend over
and
pick it up. That's just common courtesy and everyone living here
helping to
take care of the place we live.
-=-=-=-=-
Was it an order or a request?
Honestly. Before typing out what you want to say, STOP and think about
it clearly and without malice. Was it a command disguised as a question?
Mine do not *hesitate* to do things I ask of them---even difficult or
time-comsuming things---because they know that they can say "No" or
Later" or "Mom, I just don't feel like it." But *I* say those same
things sometimes. And that's OK---just as long as I'm not saying them
out of spite. Kids can see right through that. It's a lack of respect.
-=-=-=-=-
Now, I still yell, but a lot less in the last 4 days than previously.
Actually only once and that was this morning when the boys were
fighting.
Then I called them out here and talked to them about it and we (all
three)
came to a better plan of action than the fighting over the X-box. I
thought
that was successful.
-=-=-=-=-
You bet!
ANd I'm by nature a yeller, but it's almost gone. Only when really,
really stressed do I yell. But each choice is a move in the "yell-less"
direction! <g>
-=-=-===
I suppose I'm not as far off as I feel I might be...but I still feel as
though a lot of people on here think I'm a horrible parent who is
continually stepping on the neck of my boys. Perhaps in time I will
shift
my thinking on baggy pants and other things I have that are rigid. I do
have to remind myself it's been 4 days. That's not a long time to undo
36
yrs of training.
-=-=-=-=-=-
No one thinks you're horrible. You're looking to learn to be
better---and that's better than the majority of the parents! <G>
THis is NOT easy---simple, but not easy. It does get easier as you DO
it though! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
But
the part of that I see missing here, and again it could be the way
things
are being said back and forth is that with the respect I give to them, I
expect the same in return.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, in tradtional parenting, you get that respect simply by being the
parent and having been on the planet for a very long time. You don't
have the show the child respect until he shows it to you 100% of the
time.
In gentle parenting, the CHILD gets respect simply because he's the
child and has only been on this planet for a very short while. He
doesn't have to show you respect until you've earned it. <g>
The funny thing is: it doesn't take long to show genuine respect to
someone who is respectful to you.
I think it's best to back off on what I expect of the child until I
have shown him that I am worthy of respect and trust.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I am not here to pick up my son's underwear off
the bathroom floor when he's stepped over it 10 times this morning.
Could I
have picked it up? Sure. Have I picked it up in the past? Yes. But
this
morning, I noticed it when I was on my way to the shower and I said to
(this
is the 11yr old) "Hey, I noticed your underwear and sleep shirt on the
floor
in the bathroom, could you pick that up please?" And then I told him I
was
getting into the shower. That isn't any different than I would have
spoken
to my husband, mother, or friend. They dropped it they can bend over
and
pick it up. That's just common courtesy and everyone living here
helping to
take care of the place we live.
-=-=-=-=-
Was it an order or a request?
Honestly. Before typing out what you want to say, STOP and think about
it clearly and without malice. Was it a command disguised as a question?
Mine do not *hesitate* to do things I ask of them---even difficult or
time-comsuming things---because they know that they can say "No" or
Later" or "Mom, I just don't feel like it." But *I* say those same
things sometimes. And that's OK---just as long as I'm not saying them
out of spite. Kids can see right through that. It's a lack of respect.
-=-=-=-=-
Now, I still yell, but a lot less in the last 4 days than previously.
Actually only once and that was this morning when the boys were
fighting.
Then I called them out here and talked to them about it and we (all
three)
came to a better plan of action than the fighting over the X-box. I
thought
that was successful.
-=-=-=-=-
You bet!
ANd I'm by nature a yeller, but it's almost gone. Only when really,
really stressed do I yell. But each choice is a move in the "yell-less"
direction! <g>
-=-=-===
I suppose I'm not as far off as I feel I might be...but I still feel as
though a lot of people on here think I'm a horrible parent who is
continually stepping on the neck of my boys. Perhaps in time I will
shift
my thinking on baggy pants and other things I have that are rigid. I do
have to remind myself it's been 4 days. That's not a long time to undo
36
yrs of training.
-=-=-=-=-=-
No one thinks you're horrible. You're looking to learn to be
better---and that's better than the majority of the parents! <G>
THis is NOT easy---simple, but not easy. It does get easier as you DO
it though! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com