You don’t make them do anything??

Karen Swanay

30 Sep 2007, at 6:10pm

> Probably a noob question you all get all the time, but I'm seeing a lot of
> "he doesn't want to" "she doesn't like to" and the idea seems to me, at this
> point, to be "don't force your kid to do anything they don't want to do."
> Really? Seriously? I'm forcing my kids to keep their rooms clean. I'm
> making them get exercise. I would not allow them to monopolize the house
> with their stuff simply because they want to. We all live here. We all
> have to do things we don't want to do. I hate doing laundry but it has to
> be done. I don't like exercising but it's good for me. Do you all
> seriously have child run households where what a kid wants trumps what the
> family wants and needs...and even to the detriment of the child? (Such as a
> kid that doesn't ever want to get exercise.) That's a real paradigm shift
> for me and I don't think I want a "Lord of the Flies" rule in my house. Can
> someone explain to me how this works exactly since it doesn't seem clear to
> me. Thanks so much!
>

Karen S
Panama City Fl

>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

1 Oct 2007, at 11:13am

Really? Seriously?

****

yes, really, seriously. <g>

*****
I'm forcing my kids to keep their rooms clean.

*****
How are you forcing them and to what gain? Does having a cleaner room really equal a happier, fuller life? For whom -- you or them? What happens if they don't clean their rooms?

What would happen if they never cleaned their rooms? Not a likely scenario in my 22 yrs experience, and I've never forced a child to clean a room. My house never collapsed; no one got a terrible illness; social services has never been called about us. If it gets/got bad I just closed the door so no one else has to see it. Someday, they do desire a certain level of cleanliness to their space, and when that happens I'm more than happy to help them get there.

*****
I'm making them get exercise.

*****
again, how and to what gain? Would they really never get ANY exercise unless you forced them? Never play a game of tag, or go out into the yard, climb a tree, ride a bike unless forced?

*****
I would not allow them to monopolize the house with their stuff simply because they want to.

*****
Is your home *monopolized* with your stuff -- furniture you chose, artwork you like?

*****
We all live here. We all have to do things we don't want to do. I hate doing laundry but it has to be done.

*****
doing the laundry is part and parcel of having clean clothes, which I'm guessing is the pay off for you. I, too, used to hate doing laundry -- until I learned to do it mindfully, gratefully. I'm so grateful to have clothes to wear (which need to be washed). I'm so very grateful to have kids for whom I am happy to do laundry, shop for groceries, do dishes, run errands, etc. All the *chores* required in my life are part of caring for and appreciating the many blessings that fill my life. What's there to hate?

More later -- or more likely, someone else will come along and share her take on this topic. I'm off to Home Depot to get house keys copied for my kids, then off to the nursery to have them diagnose the jade plant my son and I are caring for while son's fiance is off at school in NYC!

Sylvia

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

1 Oct 2007, at 11:36am

On 10/1/07, Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@...> wrote:

> I'm forcing my kids to keep their rooms clean.
>
> *****
> How are you forcing them and to what gain? Does having a cleaner room really equal a happier, fuller life? For whom -- you or them? What happens if they don't clean their rooms?
>
> What would happen if they never cleaned their rooms? Not a likely scenario in my 22 yrs experience, and I've never forced a child to clean a room. My house never collapsed; no one got a terrible illness; social services has never been called about us. If it gets/got bad I just closed the door so no one else has to see it. Someday, they do desire a certain level of cleanliness to their space, and when that happens I'm more than happy to help them get there.

**Well they have pets in there and that means that they have to keep a
certain level of cleanliness so the pets are happy and healthy. If I
let them pile stuff to the ceiling they the pets would suffer for it.
And they need the fresh air so door closing can't be common. We've
had the pets out here but the boys want them in there for more bonding
and access so that's what we did. But with that decision comes the
responsibility of having to keep a clean room. How am I forcing the
cleanliness? I remind them to straighten up. But they don't enjoy
it. I guess I am reading and seeing a certain "push" towards hedonism
in children. Perhaps I'm seeing it wrong.

>
> *****
> I'm making them get exercise.
>
> *****
> again, how and to what gain? Would they really never get ANY exercise unless you forced them? Never play a game of tag, or go out into the yard, climb a tree, ride a bike unless forced?

>
> *****
> I would not allow them to monopolize the house with their stuff simply because they want to.
>
> *****
> Is your home *monopolized* with your stuff -- furniture you chose, artwork you like?
>

> *****
> We all live here. We all have to do things we don't want to do. I hate doing laundry but it has to be done.
>
> *****
> doing the laundry is part and parcel of having clean clothes, which I'm guessing is the pay off for you. I, too, used to hate doing laundry -- until I learned to do it mindfully, gratefully. I'm so grateful to have clothes to wear (which need to be washed). I'm so very grateful to have kids for whom I am happy to do laundry, shop for groceries, do dishes, run errands, etc. All the *chores* required in my life are part of caring for and appreciating the many blessings that fill my life. What's there to hate?
>
> More later -- or more likely, someone else will come along and share her take on this topic. I'm off to Home Depot to get house keys copied for my kids, then off to the nursery to have them diagnose the jade plant my son and I are caring for while son's fiance is off at school in NYC!
>
> Sylvia
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Pamela Sorooshian

1 Oct 2007, at 1:32pm

On Sep 30, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> > Probably a noob question you all get all the time, but I'm seeing
> a lot of
> > "he doesn't want to" "she doesn't like to" and the idea seems to
> me, at this
> > point, to be "don't force your kid to do anything they don't want
> to do."

I didn't force my kids to do anything if I could find another way. So
the times there was "force" involved were exceptions and kind of
extreme situations. They happened because something3 unexpected
occurred or because I hadn't planned ahead well enough. They are now
16, 20, and 22 and they are awesome - very responsible and
accomplished, very nice to be around.

> > Really? Seriously? I'm forcing my kids to keep their rooms clean.
> I'm
> > making them get exercise. I would not allow them to monopolize
> the house
> > with their stuff simply because they want to. We all live here.
> We all
> > have to do things we don't want to do.

You don't really do anything you don't want to do. Life is ALL about
choices for adults.

> I hate doing laundry but it has to
> > be done.

Do you really hate it? That's strong language, but if it is true that
you really truly do hate it, then you could hire someone to do it.
Lots of people hire others to do their laundry. But, more
importantly, can't you find joy in it, instead? I have grown to love
it by slowing down, paying closer attention, not viewing it as
something to just get done, but as a gift I give to my family and
myself. Just like I might take care how I wrap a nice gift for
someone, I take good care of our clothing. We only buy things we
really love. I enjoy taking care of them. My kids and husband do most
of their own laundry these days, and they have the same approach as I
do, they're careful with their clothing. It is a great blessing that
we have nice clothes, a nice washer and dryer, that we don't have to
go down to the river..... <g>.

> I don't like exercising but it's good for me.

I LOVE exercising. I hated it for years and tried to force it on
myself and I resisted my own attempts. But unschooling changed my
mentality and, eventually, that extended to believing that I matter
enough to take good care of myself. I started trying all kinds of
activities and taking the time to go to nice places, the beach,
pretty parks, etc., to go for walks. Now I run - yesterday I ran a
10K and I loved every minute of it. The joy of moving our bodies,
feeling our muscles work - it is one of the greatest joys of life.
Exercise for kids, especially, ought to come about as a result of
play, which, by definition ought to be enjoyable. Find something else
to do - something you enjoy. You think you're modeling good habits,
but what you're modeling is that things that are good for you are not
enjoyable. That's such a throwback to a Puritan ethic and a recipe
for living a life filled with "have to's" and "should's." You don't
have to live that way, life can be filled, instead, with "I love to."

My kids, never forced to exercise, are all very physically active.
Roya hikes and rock climbs when possible, kayaks, swims several times
per week, and goes to a karate class twice a week. Roxana dances -
tap, ballet, jazz. Rosie plays soccer, takes and teaches karate
classes, and takes tap, ballet, jazz, and hip-hop classes.

> Do you all
> > seriously have child run households where what a kid wants trumps
> what the
> > family wants and needs...and even to the detriment of the child?

Nope. That isn't how it works. But I can see why it appears that way,
especially since you have the feeling that you have to do things you
hate. It would be hard to imagine that kids and adults can have
completely different attitudes than that. I can honestly say that I
never do anything I hate and that even when I do things because I
feel they need to be done, I do them knowing that it is my choice.
That changes everything.

There are more times that a parent supports a child's wants than that
a child supports a parent's wants, for many years. But, that
naturally begins to change as the kids get older. My kids are really
thoughtful of their dad and me, these days, since they are teens and
young adults.

> (Such as a
> > kid that doesn't ever want to get exercise.)

I've never known a young kid who didn't want to play. They don't need
to "exercise" as in purposely run around a track or do sit-ups or
lift weights. They just need support in following their own natural
inclinations to be active in ways that give them pleasure.

> That's a real paradigm shift
> > for me

> and I don't think I want a "Lord of the Flies" rule in my house.

We definitely do not have that. The kids and adults are partners and
work together, play together, live together mostly happily and
collaboratively.

What I didn't want was an "us versus them" feeling in my house. I
didn't want my kids thinking things like:

She is so mean. She doesn't understand. She doesn't care about MY
feelings. She doesn't care what "I" want. She cares about the stupid
house more than about me.

Those are all things kids have going in their heads when their
parents think they are being very reasonable in forcing them to do
housework, for example.

> Can
> > someone explain to me how this works exactly since it doesn't
> seem clear to
> > me. Thanks so much!

Hang around for a while, it isn't going to come clear in a quick
email, but if you read for a few days or weeks, it will.

-pam

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Meredith

1 Oct 2007, at 1:32pm

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:

>
> > Probably a noob question you all get all the time, but I'm

seeing a lot of

> > "he doesn't want to" "she doesn't like to" and the idea seems to

me, at this

> > point, to be "don't force your kid to do anything they don't

want to do."

> > Really? Seriously?

Really, seriously on the "forcing" part. Its possible to have
relationships with children that don't include bigger people forcing
littler people to do things. Its challenging and takes a Lot more in
the way of skills, but that's one of the reasons this and other
unschooling boards exist - to help parents learn those skills.

Some of those skills are conceptual, as I mentioned in another post.
Learning to understand behavior as communication is pretty
conceptual, and takes a good deal of practice, but it can make a
Huge difference in a family. It has in mine. Learning to think of
kids as partners rather than unfinished products is also pretty
conceptual - and one of the core principles of whole life
unschooling.

Do you all

> > seriously have child run households where what a kid wants

trumps what the

> > family wants and needs...and even to the detriment of the child?

Okay, here's another - what my family wants and needs is based in
part on what my kids want and need. A big part of my job involves
valuing my kids' wants and needs and trying to help them get those
met - which is pretty tricky with a highly verbal, extroverted
teenager *and* a highly visual, introverted 6yo. Part of the
concepual work of unschooling is believing that its possible for
every member of the family to feel honored and valued - and "the
family" is honored and valued, too. Its not an either-or situation,
its an "and" situation.

One of the things that helped me, early on, was thinking about my
principles, or if you prefer, core values. And then thinking about
how I could live by those values - but not necessarily Impose them
on my kids.

>> We all have to do things we don't want to do.

Would you rather your kids did unpleasant things out of a sense of
kindness and mutual support or duty?

If you've been forcing your kids to do things, rather than giving
and asking and respecting and supporting, its likely that they do
those things grudgingly - which supports your "need" to force the
issue. There isn't much basis on anyone's part to trust that family
members can act out of generosity and thoughtfullness. Changing that
situation would have to begin with *more* generosity and
thoughtfullness on your part. It would likely be a disaster if you
just dropped all your "have tos" at once - but you *can* start
saying more "yes" and "I'll help" and "how can I make this easier on
you?". You can start showing *more* of the kindness you'd like to
see in the world.

> I'm forcing my kids to keep their rooms clean.

It isn't necessary to force them. You have a whole lot of other
options available. You can offer to help them clean. You can offer
to clean the rooms for them (and I mean clean, not pitch all their
stuff out of frustration). You can ask that they keep the doors
shut. You can ask that they not bring food in there. You can
acknowledge that keeping their rooms clean is your issue, not
theirs.

Neither of my kids is a neat-freak by any stretch of the
imagination, but in the last week both of them cleaned their rooms.
One asked for physical help, the other for suggestions. They don't
clean their rooms every week - its not that important to either of
them - but they do periodically decide "y'know, my life would be
easier if my room were picked up" and voila!

Right this moment, as I'm typing, my stepson is washing dishes. Its
something he's happy to do, but he rarely does it without being
asked. So we ask. We try to ask when he's not obviously in the
middle of something - and when we do, he's happy to do it right
then. Otherwise, he's likely to say "when I'm done/at a stopping
point" - and since I'd like him to be able to finish the things he
starts, I respect that.

Periodically one of my kids asks me to help with a project I'm not
thrilled about. If I'm not in the middle of something more important
(and there's not much in that category... cooking and peeing come to
mind) I'll help out as best I can, because generosity and mutual
support are important to me. That's what I mean by "living my
principles without imposing them" - I can create a more generous
family environment by Being more generous.

>>I'm making them get exercise.

Again, there are options besides force. Maybe you need to figure out
how to think outside the box a bit more in terms of helping them
find things they like to do that let them move their bodies. An
exercise ball. A computer game that involves dancing. A floor-piano.
A set of juggling clubs. A mini-trampoline. Stilts. A drum set.

>>I don't like exercising but it's good for me.

It helps, from an unschooling perspective, to see *everything* you
do as a choice. You *choose* to exercise. You've chosen a type of
exercise you dislike for reasons that seem good to you.

Now see that your children, also, have choices - right now maybe
their choices are to do what mom wants or resist - can you give them
More Choices? Can you help them see the world in terms of options
and possiblities rather than duties and limits?

>I don't think I want a "Lord of the Flies" rule in my house.

Who would?

Unschooling tends to be a bit messier and less convenient in the
short run than telling kids what to do and when, but its a loooooong
way away from "Lord of the Flies". I'm trying to help my kids
understand their own needs and wants and motivations and not just
react to those. That looks really different between my two kids in
some ways, but both have an understanding that I'm here as a
resource for them, not an obstacle to get around or an authority to
defy.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Sylvia Toyama

1 Oct 2007, at 2:02pm

How am I forcing the cleanliness? I remind them to straighten up. But they don't enjoy
it. I guess I am reading and seeing a certain "push" towards hedonism in children. Perhaps I'm seeing it wrong.

*****
well, force was your word, not mine <g>

Are you reading that we *push* towards hedonism? Which, btw, isn't the evil word my Dad made it sound like.
From dictionary.com Hedonism -- the doctirne that pleasure or happiness is the highest good.

Is there really a higher good than happiness? Is life good if one's not happy? Not in my paradigm.

**Well they have pets in there and that means that they have to keep a certain level of cleanliness so the pets are happy and healthy. If I let them pile stuff to the ceiling they the pets would suffer for it. And they need the fresh air so door closing can't be common.

****
there are no air vents in your kids' bedrooms? no windows? A closed door doesn't necessarily mean no fresh air.

Maybe it's time to have a talk about the pets -- are the kids really capable of the care required? Are they willing to do the work? Are you if the kids aren't? What kind of pets are we talking about and how old are your kids? If you've had the talk about pets and cleanliness -- and everyone is on the same page about what pet care requires, then is anyone being forced, or are you representing yourself unfairly?

*****

> I'm making them get exercise.
>
> *****
> again, how and to what gain? Would they really never get ANY exercise unless you forced them? Never play a game of tag, or go out into the yard, climb a tree, ride a bike unless forced?

**riding a bike once a week is not fitness...it is not enough.
Minimum of 30 mins physical activity per day is reccommended. And yes, there are days where if I didn't nudge them out the door, usually with me, they would sit doing nothing or just vegging in front of the computer or xbox. I am seeing the value of certain aspects to the
games they play on screen but gosh they need to be strong. They need to be healthy. I don't want them to fight with being fat as I have had to my whole life.

****
Did someone force you to exercise 30 minutes a day? Are your kids overweight? I come from a family of fat people. I'm overweight myself. I have three children -- the oldest is stick-skinny no matter what he eats or how little he *exercises*; the middle child has always been a solid/heavy kid and he's learning better habits now at 11, and losing weight (without force, btw); the youngest is an all around healthy kid, a born athlete and a much more likely to eat a balanced diet than his brothers.

I grew up with all my meal portions controlled (no dessert once I was 13, as I was getting too *hippy*), we ate only Roman Meal bread (never white) and the only cereal we were allowed was Total (with only one spoon of sugar added); I was forced to participate in sports and get *regular exercise.* It benefited me and my sibs not at all -- we were the 20-somethings roaming the grocery store with a cartful of Cap'n Crunch, Wonder bread and Coke. I hated all *exercise* and still really don't enjoy sports. All the controlling did was make me intent that when I was on my own, I'd do (or not do) and eat (or not eat) exactly and ONLY what I WANTED -- that anything my parents told me I needed was suspect and to be avoided. After all, they didn't trust me to make good choices, why should I listen to or trust them?

*****
Is your home *monopolized* with your stuff -- furniture you chose, artwork you like?

>

*** well yes and no. We live in a small space and I can not see how allowing one of them to drop some creation in the middle of the living room and it being sacrosanct and off limits to touch is a good thing.I have "stuff" too but it's not in the middle of the floor. Additionally, I have dogs and cats and will be bringing a 3 yr old home from China soon. Their things can't have more value than those of everyone else.

****
But do their things have less value than your things?

If the space you live in is too small for dogs, cats, bedroom pets, your own current children, an incoming 3yo and two adults, then maybe it's time to re-negotiate how the family's space is being used.

Sylvia

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

1 Oct 2007, at 2:06pm

The kids are not going to literally pile stuff to the ceiling and the
pets truly won't care if the floor, desk, dresser, and bed are
covered with stuff. You're the one who cares.

As the family makes the decision to keep pets in the bedroom, we talk
about how it is all going to work out. I don't say, "...with that
decision comes the responsibility of having to keep a clean room,"
because that truly is not the case. The question can be broader - if
we have pets in the bedroom, what is the best way to make sure
they're well cared for?

We have a parakeet that has lived in our living room for the past
four months while my daughter was working for the summer in Alaska
(we're in Southern California). She wants to move it back into her
room. We just had this discussion where I said, "If you leave it out
here, I'll remember to help take care of it, but if it is back there
in your room, I won't think of it as often. That means you have to be
a lot more careful with feeding and watering, etc." She said, "Yeah,
I know and I will." I said, "There are lots of times you go away for
weekends and stuff, so you're not here to care for it. I usually
always change the water and feed it, then." I also said, "Out here in
the living room, there is more activity for it and I think parakeets
like that."

No decision made yet, so I'm not sure if she's going to move it or
not. I hope not because I like it out here - it makes sweet little
noises, provides lots of entertainment, and I don't mind cleaning up
the mess it makes.

My point is that this isn't any different than the kind of discussion
I would have had with her when she was 10 years old, but she's now
22. The difference is that now I know that she will take care of it
if she does put it into her room, whereas when she was 10, she'd have
been very likely to forget for days, and I would have been a lot more
careful to provide backup support. Otherwise, same conversation.

-pam

On Oct 1, 2007, at 8:36 AM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> **Well they have pets in there and that means that they have to keep a
> certain level of cleanliness so the pets are happy and healthy. If I
> let them pile stuff to the ceiling they the pets would suffer for it.
> And they need the fresh air so door closing can't be common. We've
> had the pets out here but the boys want them in there for more bonding
> and access so that's what we did. But with that decision comes the
> responsibility of having to keep a clean room. How am I forcing the
> cleanliness? I remind them to straighten up. But they don't enjoy
> it. I guess I am reading and seeing a certain "push" towards hedonism
> in children. Perhaps I'm seeing it wrong.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

paul mcgee

1 Oct 2007, at 2:07pm

just read your post meredith, and i'm new at this too. you have just helped me tremendously thanks xxxx ann

---------------------------------
For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month.

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Karen Swanay

1 Oct 2007, at 2:46pm

I suppose I should have used the word "ask" rather than "make". I will keep
reading thanks!
Karen

>
>
>

Meredith

1 Oct 2007, at 2:59pm

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:

> > Is your home *monopolized* with your stuff -- furniture you

chose, artwork you like?

> >
>
> *** well yes and no. We live in a small space and I can not see

how

> allowing one of them to drop some creation in the middle of the

living

> room and it being sacrosanct and off limits to touch is a good

thing.
**********************

Having more family members and/or less space creates some "natural
limits" that don't exist in other families, for sure. Here's a
thought, though, if one child in the family was particularly
musical, wouldn't you work to support that, even if it were
sometimes inconvenient? How about a child who was an avid painter on
a fairly large scale - would you try to create some space for that
child to work and also space to display it? It would be a good thing
to involve the other kids in that kind of decision making,
certainly, and there would likely be more and different compromises
than in a family with an only child.

>Their things can't have more value than those
> of everyone else.

This statement goes beyond "things" I think. Its important that
family members feel honored and valued. That being said, some kids
have more/higher needs than others. Denying that neediness, though,
doesn't really create a situation where other family members feel as
though their needs are being honored - more likely a sense of
competition for limited resources. Helping everyone in the family
have a sense of abundance can be a challenge. Is that the sort of
thing you're concerned about? Do you feel "stretched" as a parent?
perhaps some others could share how they moved from feeling like
there "wasn't enough mom to go around" to a sense of abundant
support.

>I'm not saying others can't do this...just trying
> to grasp the totality of this system.

I'm not sure I'd call unschooling a "system" since it depends so
heavily on specific circumstances. Its more a set of guidelines for
building more open relationships and improving communication within
a family. Insisting that family members do things a particular way
shuts down communication and erodes relationships. Finding ways to
support the passions of individual family members with full regard
to the needs and passions of *other* family members helps improve
relationships and involves a whole lot of communication.

What that actually "looks like" is pretty diverse. I don't
communicate with my 6yo the same way I communicate with my 14yo -
and that's just within my one small family!

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Joyce Fetteroll

1 Oct 2007, at 4:50pm

On Oct 1, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> I suppose I should have used the word "ask" rather than "make".

Can they say no when you "ask" and have you be perfectly okay with
that? Do *they* feel you're perfectly okay when they say no?

Somewhere along the line it became "polite" to ask children to do
something when the child really couldn't say no. When the child takes
the question at face value and says no, the parent becomes upset
because they "asked politely" and, gasp, the child said no!

If your husband asked you to reroof the house and he got upset when
you said no, would the question feel like he was being polite?

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Krisula

1 Oct 2007, at 5:36pm

>>>Are you reading that we *push* towards hedonism? Which, btw, isn't the

evil word my Dad made it sound like.
From dictionary.com Hedonism -- the doctirne that pleasure or happiness is
the highest good.

Is there really a higher good than happiness? Is life good if one's not
happy? Not in my paradigm.<<<

My 14yo ds Trayton recently told me "eventually, the purpose in life boils
down to happiness. Even if you look at religion for a while you can see
that." He went on to say that happiness as individuals and as groups,
families, communities, and available for everyone is the most important
thing. I'm not sure he considers himself a hedonist but. well, there ya
go. I'm blessed to know him.

Krisula

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

1 Oct 2007, at 5:40pm

I think the difference between reroofing the house and asking my kids not to
fight with each other is immense. What I am talking about are those things
that we all must do in life to get along and get by. Not to demand more
than others have. Not to take without giving. Not to feed the selfish
parts of us all the time.

Upon further reflection I don't believe that it's OK for anyone to always
say no all the time. If a police officer asks you to pull over you may not
say no. If my oldest son is being an ass to his little brother and hurting
his feelings it is NOT ok for him to say NO to me when I tell him to stop.
I guess (and I recognize this is a new shift in my thinking required) that I
am reading a lot (not here necessarily) where unschooling has become
"child-kings" and that is abdication of parenting. Children can be treated
with respect and kindness without given free-reign to impact the family and
world as they see fit regardless of age or motivation. What I am struggling
with is what I see as parents giving up guiding children and allowing
children to guide everything. Works I guess when you have only one child
but how can I allow one child to rule when I have more than one? How can I
look at my youngest and say "Your brother is teasing you but that's what he
feels like doing now. You have to allow it because that's what he wants."

I suppose the question I have is what do you do when conflict comes as it
envitably will?

Karen

On 10/1/07, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:
>
> > I suppose I should have used the word "ask" rather than "make".
>
> Can they say no when you "ask" and have you be perfectly okay with
> that? Do *they* feel you're perfectly okay when they say no?
>
> Somewhere along the line it became "polite" to ask children to do
> something when the child really couldn't say no. When the child takes
> the question at face value and says no, the parent becomes upset
> because they "asked politely" and, gasp, the child said no!
>
> If your husband asked you to reroof the house and he got upset when
> you said no, would the question feel like he was being polite?
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

1 Oct 2007, at 6:05pm

In a message dated 10/1/2007 10:31:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
luvbullbreeds@... writes:

**riding a bike once a week is not fitness...it is not enough.
Minimum of 30 mins physical activity per day is reccommended. And
yes, there are days where if I didn't nudge them out the door, usually
with me, they would sit doing nothing or just vegging in front of the
computer or xbox. I am seeing the value of certain aspects to the
games they play on screen but gosh they need to be strong. They need
to be healthy. I don't want them to fight with being fat as I have
had to my whole life.

_____________________________________________________

Give them more down time. Those things are still a commodity - it will
change. But it takes time, patience and...patience and time :) Always have the
options, but constantly proclaiming them can often be too much and kids then
rebel. It reduces the joy in the experiences...and becomes a chore...and wipes
out the flow of one thing to the next too.

Karen

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

1 Oct 2007, at 6:10pm

In a message dated 10/1/2007 10:33:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> That's a real paradigm shift
> > for me

It is - try pretending to yourself that it really works and giving it
a real serious open-minded look. It isn't going to hurt, you don't
have to actually change anything, you can think it through even
though it sounds risky. There is no harm in thinking dangerous
thoughts. <G>

__________________________

Oh, I just HAD to say that's what I did at first! I just pretended it
worked! lol! I mean I KNEW it did...but with MY kids? lol...well, yes, even with MY
kids, it worked. It's workING actually...my little ones I hope to always be
unschooled, my older kids were conventionally schooled and I see them getting
it as I let go, as I pretend it works, lol...and now, I don't need to pretend
anymore. It's GREAT and I've never been so close to my older son as I am
now. He just turned 18, deschooled for about a year-ish-kinda-sorta (longer
story, one day I hope to tell all!) and is now really getting comfortable with
self learning and letting his interests take him where he needs to go. He is
trusting the process...and I've heard it said here before and I often quote
this: "Trust breeds trust." Yes, it does! And it's lovely.

Karen

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

1 Oct 2007, at 9:05pm

On Oct 1, 2007, at 5:40 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> Children can be treated
> with respect and kindness without given free-reign to impact the
> family and
> world as they see fit regardless of age or motivation.

Can you *quote* someone on this list who has said that?

This is where the discussion is going off the rails: this adamant
insistence that there are people here who advocate giving children
rule of the house.

What people have written may sound that way but you are dead wrong.
You will get far better answers if you ask questions about what's
confusing you rather than insisting your vision of what's going on in
our homes is better than our own vision.

> What I am struggling
> with is what I see as parents giving up guiding children and allowing
> children to guide everything.
>

Where? Quotes please.

> I suppose the question I have is what do you do when conflict comes
> as it
> envitably will?
>

Can you give a specific example? Mindful parenting works best when we
can help the parent see what's happening from the child's point of
view. Unlike conventional parenting where the emphasis is on the
child's behavior, mindful parenting tries to get at the root cause.

> Not to demand more
> than others have. Not to take without giving. Not to feed the selfish
> parts of us all the time.
>
> Upon further reflection I don't believe that it's OK for anyone to
> always
> say no all the time.
>

*Who has said that?* Please quote.

You've built up this false picture of what's going on in our homes
and are measuring our answers against it so the answers aren't making
sense.

> I think the difference between reroofing the house and asking my
> kids not to
> fight with each other is immense.
>

Here's where you used the world "make" that you said should be "ask":

> I'm making them get exercise.
>
> You don't make them do anything??
>
>

Nothing about sibling fighting.

The question still stands: If you ask your child to do something, can
the child say no and you'll be okay with that?

Nothing about always say no. It's just common courtesy that when you
ask someone to do you a favor, you need to be okay with no. If you're
not okay with no, then you aren't asking. You're disguising a command
as a question. And if you don't see it as a favor you're asking, then
you've imposed an obligation on them and, again, it's not a question.
It's just a command.

It's an important behavioral observation. Do you treat your kids by a
different set of courtesy rules than you do adults? Are there adults
you ask questions of that you wouldn't accept no from?

> What I am talking about are those things
> that we all must do in life to get along and get by.
>

If you are talking about that, it's not coming across clearly.

Please do describe specific problems you're having. The answers will
be *much* clearer.

Joyce

Karen Swanay

1 Oct 2007, at 9:39pm

On 10/1/07, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
On Oct 1, 2007, at 5:40 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> This is where the discussion is going off the rails: this adamant
insistence that there are people here who advocate giving children
rule of the house.<

**Well Joyce I had kind of hoped that I could ask questions here
without being attacked but that is sadly not the case.

There is insistance on this list that children be allowed to do
whatever, whenever, however, they want and parents are obligated to
change their expectations or way they view that. Just in this thread.
I asked about exercise and was told that my kids shouldn't be asked
to do any. They should be left to their own devices and they will
come to it naturally. That my insistance on doing some for my health
and theirs will envitably lead to them hating it...ergo against the
philosophy. There is another thread here about some gigantic Lego
creations which the child has forbid the mother to remove, move, or
alter. All responses seem to point to the parents learning to live
around these things.

I asked about that and did people really think children should be
allowed to leave their stuff all over the house and was told that I
had monopolized my house with my stuff so the children should be
allowed the same rights. To expect otherwise is against the
philosophy.

If I am told that children should not be asked to do chores, to clean
their rooms, to exercise, or in any other way help the family, then I
have to assume this is rule by children. What other assumption can
there be? Some have said they ask but do not expect the children to
do any thing but usually they will when they get around to it. But
most have told me to ask is to disrespect. No Joyce, not direct
quotes but that's the gist of it.
>
> What people have written may sound that way but you are dead wrong.
> You will get far better answers if you ask questions about what's
> confusing you rather than insisting your vision of what's going on in
> our homes is better than our own vision.

**At NO time did I ever say my vision was better than yours. What you
do with your kids in your home is your business. I am asking what is
being advocated. It's a simple question. What is the position of the
philosophy re: children and who says and does what when? I also said,
Joyce, that I read not just here but other places as well, and that my
information is coming from multiple sources, BUT the overarching
message is "Do not insist, force, coerce nor even ask a child to do
anything because that is against the philosophy." So I asked...and
while most people answered nicely, you have been less so.

I understand that you probably grow tired of answering the same
questions over and over again but if you didn't want to answer...you
could have just deleted my post. I am simply trying to wrap my head
around something that is foreign to me. I *thought* I had a grasp of
the concept until it came to my attention that this is more than just
about learning it's is a part of all interactions with children. This
boggles my mind.

FWIW Joyce, I am a behaviorist and work with aggressive animals for a
living. I understand behavior as communication. I understand the 8
ways to change a behavior. I understand and use opperant conditioning
in my life daily. I am not stupid nor am I incapable of grasping
esoteric concepts. I am familiar with "bucking the system" as I feed
my pets a biologically appropriate diet and they have minimal
interference with their immune systems. So please do me the favor of
not being disrespectful or patronizing to me. I am simply trying to
grasp the concept so it can be applied correctly. What is wrong with
that?

>
> The question still stands: If you ask your child to do something, can
> the child say no and you'll be okay with that?
>
> Nothing about always say no. It's just common courtesy that when you
> ask someone to do you a favor, you need to be okay with no. If you're
> not okay with no, then you aren't asking. You're disguising a command
> as a question. And if you don't see it as a favor you're asking, then
> you've imposed an obligation on them and, again, it's not a question.
> It's just a command.

**And this would be against the philosophy yes? One must never give
their child a command and only ask favors but be prepared for that
favor to be declined. Is that what you are saying because that's the
way it reads. And so I look at that and see that child-kings. If I'm
wrong and there is something other option then please enlighten me
because I'm trying to understand how this actually looks. Theory is
nice but practical application is better.
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

Sylvia Toyama

1 Oct 2007, at 9:51pm

Upon further reflection I don't believe that it's OK for anyone to always say no all the time. If a police officer asks you to pull over you may not say no.

*****
technically, you can say no. Sure, he might arrest you, but you can say no. It's best to choose not to say no, but you can say it. <g>

Sylvia

---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

1 Oct 2007, at 10:45pm

In a message dated 10/1/2007 6:52:31 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
sylgt04@... writes:

Upon further reflection I don't believe that it's OK for anyone to always
say no all the time. If a police officer asks you to pull over you may not say
no.

*****
technically, you can say no. Sure, he might arrest you, but you can say no.
It's best to choose not to say no, but you can say it. <g>

Sylvia

_____________________________________________

I was thinking the same thing - talk about breaking social norms! lol! But
hey...are we sure said Police Officer is male? ;)

Karen (Karen PS that is, or So. CA Karen, or....Julian y Julia's mama...)

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christy Mahoney

2 Oct 2007, at 1:23am

You said it was a simple question, but I don't think it is simple at
all. I think the questions can be answered in many more ways than
just yes or no. There is a lot to be said in between forcing and
doing nothing.

For example, with the exercise question. There are a lot of ways to
encourage your child to be physically active. People often use the
example of what if your spouse asked you to do what you ask your
kids to do. If my husband said, "You need to get some exercise.
Why don't you go for a bike ride for 30 minutes today?" I'd most
likely want to respond with not just "NO" but "Hell no! I can decide
for myself if I want some exercise." However, if he said, "I know
what would be fun! Let's go for a bike ride after I get home. I
know a really cool place to ride." Wow. It sounds fun now. But, I
could still say no and would say no if there was something that I
would much rather be doing or if I don't really like bike riding.

Now, this other part about rule by children or child-kings, I really
don't understand. What do you mean by children ruling? Ruling
you? How? Ruling themselves?

What I am hearing from people here is that what children want is
important too, not that what we as parents want is not important.
It is generally accepted in our culture that the projects of
children are not very important, and if a child leaves a lot of
legos on the floor, parents are fully justified in just scooping
them up to get them out of the way. After all, it's just toys. But
to a child, destroying that lego project may be comparable to
someone stomping on a painting you just finished or throwing a
lovely meal you prepared into the trash.

We aren't saying do nothing and say nothing. We are saying that
what is important to you may not be important to your child. We are
saying talk to your children if something is bothering you, and if
it's important to you that they do something, ask yourself why and
let them know why.

Don't have time for more now but wish I did.

-Christy

Melissa

2 Oct 2007, at 1:31am

There was a whole lot in your post, but I'm going to just address
this. i feel like because I have seven kids, I'm pretty much a mommy
moderator with lots of experience in conflict. rotfl....

i think the question you have to ask is why is the conflict there?
Why would an older child pick on a younger child? What is he getting
out of it? What does that older child need in order to stop? Instead
of just saying "NO!", which just gets him to stop until you are out
of the scene (trust me, not only grew up with that, but also have
seen it in my own children) and builds resentment, what else can you
say? Once you look at why the behavior is happening, then you can
look at what will work to increase respect for each other.

Viewing it as the older brother being 'an ass' presents a lot of
negative views of the child, and probably perpetuates that behavior.
Sometimes the little brother is really asking for it ;-) Seriously,
when my 12 yo is picking on a younger sibling, it's often because he
feels out of control in a situation. We're driving somewhere and he
doesn't have anything else to do. All the computers are being used
and he's run out of library books. He's hungry and doesn't realize
his blood sugar is low, so it is appealing to his chemistry. So i can
offer things. i can offer snacks to boost his energy and blood sugar.
I can offer his some books from my collection. In the car I will ask
him to find a different radio station that he likes, or maybe we'll
put in on the news and discuss what's going on. I'll find something
that's appealing to his 12 yo body and mind as being difficult, he
personally enjoys the two mile hike to the grocery store, so I'll
mention that we're out of such-n-so and see if he wants to go. I have
a mental checklist of things he likes to do, and I'll ask if he minds
climbing into the attic and checking the vents for AC leaks, or
cutting up firewood, or digging through our old CDROMS to see which
ones are compatible with our newest software. KWIM?

I'm not saying that you should tell your little one that he has to
put up with being teased, I have learned to step back and ask "Hey!
What's going on in here?" and listening and figuring out what's
REALLY going on. Beyond the conflict, what has really instigated
this? Sometimes big brothers just need a break. can he stay home
while you take the younger ones shopping? Can you take him once a
week out for an ice cream cone while someone watches the younger
kids. It really helps all of my kids to hear lots of stories of how
precious they were when they were younger. Not as a "You did this
when YOU were four, get over it." But all the time, outside of the
situation. Driving to the mall, "You know, I remember this one time,
when you were four, you did x, y, z. Sam reminds me so much of you at
that age." Then he might complain a bit about how Sam is always in
his face and wanting a,b,c, and I'll listen and say "Yes, your uncle
Chris was the same way when we were little. It's hard to deal with
that much energy." But Josh especially seems to be softer and more
gentle on things that he knows is usual for all little kids, and so
we really try to keep that open. We talk about those traits in
positive manners, talk about where it got him.

Maybe this will help some, I sensed a lot of fear of the unknown in
your post, and maybe some of that black and white thinking, it has to
be this or that, rather than reading between the lines and finding
alternatives.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma

On Oct 1, 2007, at 4:40 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:
> Works I guess when you have only one child
> but how can I allow one child to rule when I have more than one?
> How can I
> look at my youngest and say "Your brother is teasing you but that's
> what he
> feels like doing now. You have to allow it because that's what he
> wants."
>
> I suppose the question I have is what do you do when conflict comes
> as it
> envitably will?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

2 Oct 2007, at 1:43am

One question....first of all, i'm sorry that your self-image is
suffering, you see yourself as fighting fat. I feel that way, not as
often as I used to, because I'm so blessed to have this struggle to
save my own children from it. One thing I had to ask myself is "Did I
have an unschooling background where I was making choices, or was my
food and exercise legislated? Which one led to me being overweight?"
I can assure you it wasn't freedom of choice. That's one reason why
it is very important to *me* for my kids to choose these things of
their own free will, because I still remember the first year, living
on my own, I was still skinny, but I was choosing all that junk food
that I either was not allowed to have, or had to have stipulations
attached. I stopped exercising because before then it was always
legislated by school, or by mom (get out and do something, anything!)
so suddenly I could sit and watch Maury all day, eating my dang
twinkies, the whole box if I wanted. ack! How long did it take me to
gain all that weight? Not long at all!

We started unschooling two years ago. The first day my son had the
Wii, he spent 14 hours on it. I didn't even keep track, i didn't want
to know (he showed me later how to find the tracker on the
gamesystem....omg) But by six months later, there were several days
in a row that it wasn't even turned on. What were they doing? Oh,
some of it was playing on the internet, but some of it was spent
building a tree house, or hiking with the scouts, or digging up the
potatoes. My son, whom I worried over because he's such a bookworm,
has spent two or three hours every day this past week trying to beat
out his own score on the pogo stick. Talk about exercise! I really
think that once the TV and videogames get their fill, when the kids
honestly and truly believe that they can come and go from them
without stipulation, then the ability to walk away and choose other
things are much easier.

I read someone else's post about making an entire lifestyle change.
That is huge. Being able to say, as a mom, I'd like to spend time
with you doing x or y, what do you think? and then YOU do it. If they
don't want to go, don't make it an issue. You get out and have fun
and exercise and feel good. They'll join you when they are ready. My
friend walks with her girls, they walk four miles a day...to a frozen
custard stand! They have a good time talking, there's a reward at the
end, and they are building a routine with exercise. They don't go
every day, but often enough that the girls don't mind missing if
their walk curves to go by the pond rather than to the shopping
center. Cool for them.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma

On Oct 1, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Kidgie@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 10/1/2007 10:31:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> luvbullbreeds@... writes:
>
> **riding a bike once a week is not fitness...it is not enough.
> Minimum of 30 mins physical activity per day is reccommended. And
> yes, there are days where if I didn't nudge them out the door, usually
> with me, they would sit doing nothing or just vegging in front of the
> computer or xbox. I am seeing the value of certain aspects to the
> games they play on screen but gosh they need to be strong. They need
> to be healthy. I don't want them to fight with being fat as I have
> had to my whole life.
>
> _____________________________________________________
>
> Give them more down time. Those things are still a commodity - it will
> change. But it takes time, patience and...patience and time :)
> Always have the
> options, but constantly proclaiming them can often be too much and
> kids then
> rebel. It reduces the joy in the experiences...and becomes a
> chore...and wipes
> out the flow of one thing to the next too.
>
> Karen
>
> ************************************** See what's new at http://
> www.aol.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

2 Oct 2007, at 2:35am

On Oct 1, 2007, at 2:40 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> Upon further reflection I don't believe that it's OK for anyone to
> always
> say no all the time. If a police officer asks you to pull over you
> may not
> say no. If my oldest son is being an ass to his little brother and
> hurting
> his feelings it is NOT ok for him to say NO to me when I tell him
> to stop.

I think we'd all agree with that.

I'm wondering where you're getting the idea that we'd not make a kid
stop hurting a younger sibling?

> I guess (and I recognize this is a new shift in my thinking
> required) that I
> am reading a lot (not here necessarily) where unschooling has become
> "child-kings" and that is abdication of parenting.

The opposite of abdication of parenting - it is intensive one-on-one
hands-on attentive attachment parenting. We parent by principles,
rather than by rules. Thinking about that might help you get it.

> Children can be treated
> with respect and kindness without given free-reign to impact the
> family and
> world as they see fit regardless of age or motivation.

You have this idea that our kids are wild little brats and we just
ignore them or stand around beaming at them? Kind of picturing us as
the Dursley-parents of the Harry Potter books?

It isn't at all like that - let go of that picture because you're way
off.

> What I am struggling
> with is what I see as parents giving up guiding children and allowing
> children to guide everything.

We do a LOT of guiding. Lots and lots.

> Works I guess when you have only one child
> but how can I allow one child to rule when I have more than one?

We don't allow any child to rule and we don't rule either. You see
things as if someone has to be in control and if it is not the parent
being the dictator, it must be the child? Not so. We're partners, we
work together, it is a dance that we do and sometimes one leads,
sometimes the other.

> How can I
> look at my youngest and say "Your brother is teasing you but that's
> what he
> feels like doing now. You have to allow it because that's what he
> wants."

That would be ridiculously mean-spirited. Do you seriously think we'd
do that?

>
> I suppose the question I have is what do you do when conflict comes
> as it
> envitably will?

Depends on the situation. We have a guiding principle - everyone
deserves to be safe in their own house. If older brother is being
mean because he's tired and hungry, I'd probably say, "Hey, let's go
get some food." If the younger one has been irritating him for a
while, I might distract the younger one in some way so that older
brother can have some space from him. Maybe they need to get outdoors
for a while. Maybe I've been too busy elsewhere and they need me to
read them both a good story or cuddle up on the couch with some
popcorn and watch a movie. I'm not going to ignore it if one kid is
being mean to the other, though. Sometimes I might just straight out
ask him to come with me to another room and hug him and look deep
into his eyes and say, "You're having a rough time, what's up?" There
is always the assumption that the kid wants happiness and harmony in
the family - he wants to be loved, he wants to be happy. So my job is
to help him get back in touch with that and to help him understand
his own behavior, understand why he's being mean, understand if there
were warning signs that he could have noticed in time to have done
something different, and so on. Far from ignoring our kids'
behaviors, we pay close attention and fine tune our sensitivity to
understand them best we can and develop a really close relationship
so that we can give them as much help as possible.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

2 Oct 2007, at 2:45am

On Oct 1, 2007, at 6:39 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

> FWIW Joyce, I am a behaviorist and work with aggressive animals for a
> living. I understand behavior as communication. I understand the 8
> ways to change a behavior. I understand and use opperant conditioning
> in my life daily

Using operant conditioning on humans is not conducive to building a
good relationship. Humans do not respond well, in the long run, to
feeling manipulated. Children should not be treated like trained
animals.

In place of a behaviorist approach, we use what might be called a
"relationship" approach.

Two books that address this - "Punished by Reward" by Alfie Kohn and
"The Parent Teen Breakthrough" by Myra Kirschenbaum.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

2 Oct 2007, at 5:58am

On Oct 1, 2007, at 9:39 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

>> > This is where the discussion is going off the rails: this adamant
>> insistence that there are people here who advocate giving children
>> rule of the house.<
>>
>> **Well Joyce I had kind of hoped that I could ask questions here
>> without being attacked but that is sadly not the case.
>>
> There is insistance on this list that children be allowed to do
> whatever, whenever, however, they want and parents are obligated to
> change their expectations or way they view that.

No. You are filtering the explanations people are giving through that
vision of what's being said so that you can't see what people are
*really* saying.

> Just in this thread.
> I asked about exercise and was told that my kids shouldn't be asked
> to do any.
>

If your goal is short term to get kids to exercise today, then making
them exercise today will work.

If your goal is long term exercise for life there are four possible
outcomes of forced exercise when the kids are grown:

1) some kids, because those particular kids were born with an innate
love of some kind of physical activity, will enjoy pursuing that
activity. (Not all kids are born with that.)

2) some kids, because they fear being out of shape, will force
themselves to exercise.

3) some kids who would have enjoyed some kind of physical activity
will be so turned off by being made to exercise, be turned off by the
negative associations they've had with activity, that they'll rebel
and do the opposite.

4) some kids who aren't drawn to physical activity, but who might
have found something they enjoy, will avoid it just because they have
negative associations with it and can finally avoid it.

Is the only solution then to let them be? No. And if you assume that
must be so, then the answers won't make sense.

*Unschoolers* goal is to be our children's partners not their
masters. Kids *do* want to be healthy. But they, like all humans,
don't want someone to force them to go through the motions of doing
something that someone else thinks will make them healthy.

What do unschoolers do instead?

Instead of exercising we do active things and invite the kids to
join. Yes, they can say no, but when we're offering things they enjoy
(and actively seeking out new things to find things they enjoy), they
won't say no often.

The offers can be bike rides, walks through the woods, climbing
rocks, rock wall climbing, sports teams, swimming, horseback riding
and so on.

If your goal is 30 minutes of exercise per day then unschooling won't
help you achieve that any more than it will help some parent achieve
30 minutes of math a day.

If your goal is kids who appreciate the wide variety of ways they can
keep active, who have pleasant associations with being active, then
we can help you.

> All responses seem to point to the parents learning to live
> around these things.
>

If you filter the responses through the idea that either kids get
their way or adults get their way then the answers are going to sound
like we're saying kids get their way.

There is a *third* option. The third option is finding a way for
everyone to get their needs met. It's seeing children's needs not as
more important but as just as important as adult needs. It *does*
take more work but it doesn't have the downsides of force.

The conventional route is for the parent to decide on a solution and
impose the solution on the child.

The mindful parenting route is to step back and see the big picture.
How can I help my child get what he wants *and* get what I want? How
can I model how to solve problems when two needs seem to clash?

Nearly all of us were raised by parents who modeled for us that the
way to get our needs met is to be bigger and make the other person do
what we want. That's why most people have problems understanding that
a problem *doesn't* need to be one person winning and the other losing.

It's not about winning and losing. It's not about making someone else
give up some of what they have so another person can get what they
want. It's about seeing solutions where everyone's needs are met and
no one loses.

It means seeing beyond the immediate problem. The child with the
Legos doesn't want them all over the house. That's just the solution
he's hit on to preserve them. He needs help, not force. If mom comes
swooping in and sees his solution as the problem and tries to
eliminate his solution he's going to hang onto it! It's the only way
he sees to get what he wants.

The solution is to help him figure out what he *really* wants. (His
creations preserved apparently.) The solution is to respectfully help
him find solutions where everyone's needs are met.

When children's wants and needs and desires are treated with respect
as though they mattered to us, then they will (as they're able) treat
our wants and needs and desires with respect.

If the child's creations are swept away in order for mom to meet her
needs, what problem solving method has the mom modeled for him? That
might makes right? That being big is better than being small? That
making someone do what you want them to is the best way to get your
needs met? That when he is able to sweep someone else's bothersome
need out of the way that he should do so?

And what's the child's likely reaction? We *want* it to be "Oh, yeah,
I was being rude. Mom's right." How often *is* that your reaction
when someone has trampled all over your needs? Kids are no different.
They're going to be angry. They're going to feel like they aren't
understood and that the only person who cares about their needs is
themselves so they'd better fight to hold onto what they have or it's
going to be taken away by force.

If the mom treats the child's need to keep his Lego creations with
respect, she's modeling respect. When the situation is not treated
like there needs to be losers for there to be winners, there's no
need for kids to fight to hold onto what they have. They *will* give
when they know mom keeps their needs at the top of her priority list.

> That my insistance on doing some for my health
> and theirs will envitably lead to them hating it...ergo against the
> philosophy.
>

The goal is peaceful joyful family lives not living by the rule of
the philosophy.

Child-kings are not joyful. Parent-kings are not joyful either.

Mindful parenting is a route to no kings at all. It's a route to
partners.

If you can drop the idea that we're advocating child rule, if you can
see that we're trying to *model* cooperative living (not *impose*
cooperative living solutions which is just back to force) and *model*
problem solving that takes *everyone's* feelings into consideration
then the answers will make a lot more sense.

> No Joyce, not direct
> quotes but that's the gist of it.
>

Direct quotes will help the conversation become helpful because you
are taking in the words and their meaning is changing inside of you
so you think -- *insisting* -- we're saying something we're not. So,
please, direct quotes.

> At NO time did I ever say my vision was better than yours. What you
> do with your kids in your home is your business.
>

Again you misread.

What I said is you are insisting you can see what is going on in our
homes better than we can see. You are telling us what it's like in
our homes: that we have child kings, that we are slaves to the
philosophy.

We are saying, no, you're misunderstanding.

You say, no, I'm right. I got the gist of it. Here's what is happening.

Do you see how your telling us what is true in our own homes could
make having a discussion really difficult?

> Do not insist, force, coerce nor even ask a child to do
> anything because that is against the philosophy."
>

See, how many times does it need repeated, that isn't what we're saying?

But, instead of letting go of that idea, you keep reading what people
are saying and forcing it into that idea.

As someone once said, to understand a new idea you need to empty your
cup first. You need to let go of what you *think* we're saying. You
need to let go of the filters that are sorting the answers into
"Child gets his way" and "Parent gets her way."

We aren't saying either and until you can see that there's *other*
options, the answers just won't make sense.

> If I am told that children should not be asked to do chores, to clean
> their rooms, to exercise, or in any other way help the family, then I
> have to assume this is rule by children.
>

*DON'T* assume. *Ask.* Please! Because you're guesses are wrong and
that's why the answers aren't making sense.

If your goal is having children help today, there isn't a way of
doing that other than by force.

If your goal is long term in having children who help you because
they want to help you, then we can help with that.

I think it's more accurate to say the goal for mindful parents isn't
to throw out solutions because they're disrespectful. The goal is to
find respectful solutions.

The first goal would leave us with no way of handling problems! The
second is action oriented towards the goal of respect and great
relationships.

> I understand that you probably grow tired of answering the same
> questions over and over again
>

Actually not. I've been doing this for 12 years answering the same
questions hundreds of times.

What's tiring is people reading what gets written and misinterpreting
it and *then* saying "My interpretation of what's happening in your
homes is right. How could I possibly interpret it any way other than
I am? So, how can you possibly live like that?"

And then it goes round and round with people saying "No, you're
misinterpreting." and being responded with, "How can I be
misinterpreting? You *are* saying that."

It's truly maddening.

The only benefit is that the responses clarify points for *other*
people who are reading. Several people are probably saying "Oh, I get
it now."

>> > The question still stands: If you ask your child to do
>> something, can
>> > the child say no and you'll be okay with that?
>> >
>> > Nothing about always say no. It's just common courtesy that when
>> you
>> > ask someone to do you a favor, you need to be okay with no. If
>> you're
>> > not okay with no, then you aren't asking. You're disguising a
>> command
>> > as a question. And if you don't see it as a favor you're asking,
>> then
>> > you've imposed an obligation on them and, again, it's not a
>> question.
>> > It's just a command.
>
> **And this would be against the philosophy yes?
>

If you can answer the question, rather than throwing back your
interpretation *again* of what I must mean, then people might be able
to help you through the process of understanding.

If you keep filtering my meaning through your own understanding it's
just not going to make sense.

To understand you need to let go of the idea that we have child-
kings. To understand you need to let go of the idea that someone must
lose in order for someone else to win. You need to let go of the idea
of the goal being winning or losing.

To understand you need to assume that we want a lot of what you want
and don't want a lot of what you don't want. We DON'T want our
children to be unhealthy. We DON'T want our houses to be pig styes.
We DON'T want to be slaves to our children. We DO want joyful family
lives. We DON'T want the pretense of a joyful life where the kids are
happy and mom's miserable because the kids get what they want and mom
has to give up everything.

We DO want to find respectful solutions to the problems that come up
in our lives.

Just because we aren't doing what you think must be done doesn't mean
we want the opposite. *Assume* we want healthy kids. Then work to
understand how the answers are about helping our kids be healthy.

Throw away your assumption of what must be happening in our homes.
Throw away what you think must be the outcome and just really listen
to what people are saying.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

2 Oct 2007, at 10:26am

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:

>> I suppose the question I have is what do you do when conflict

comes as it

> envitably will?

Okay, this is better - more specific. You seem to be panicking in
several different directions at once, which is normal, but it helps
to Talk about one thing at a time ;)

> If my oldest son is being an ass to his little brother and hurting
> his feelings it is NOT ok for him to say NO to me when I tell him

to stop.

One of the conceptual shifts I mentioned was to learn to think of
behavior as communication - *why* is your oldest deciding to be "an
ass" to his little brother? What's leading up to this? Is the older
guy feeling put-upon? Crowded? Bored? Needing some quiet? Needing
some attention? Those are all possible triggers for lashing out at
someone. That's not an excuse, its a clue to mom that she needs to
be more involved and proactive in some way.

Maybe mom needs to hang out more when the brothers are in the same
room together - that's something I had to do a Lot of for Months
after Ray came to live with us, in part bc he had all
these "schoolyard" behaviors that really weren't great ways to
relate to a smaller, younger kid. Nowadays I *still* expect to have
to hang out more if the kids have been separated for a week or more -
like when Ray went to visit his grandma, or Mo and I went to L&L.

Maybe mom needs to look at what kinds of expectations she has for
the boys based on their ages. I know *I* need to remind myself on a
regular basis that 14 is still pretty young - especially since the
14yo in question is six feet (almost 2m) tall! Its easy to look at
two children and see one as being soooo much bigger and older and
have unrealistic expectations as a result. Its a really common
pitfall - and one of the sources of resentment and corespondingly
ugly behavior on the part of older kids. The behavior is saying "I'm
in over my head mom! Help!"

Be sure you're still giving your oldest kid (he's 11, right?) lots
of love and attention and support. He needs that to help him heal
from school and to get back in touch with who he really is as a
person.

> unschooling has become
> "child-kings" and that is abdication of parenting.

I hope you can see from the above that what I'm advocating is not an
abdication of parenting, but More parenting for All your kids. Kids
in school are shoved into a greater degree of independence than is
really healthy for them. Your kids need some time to be a little
more needy so that they can start to develop some trust in You as
their support system. They don't have that yet.

> What I am talking about are those things
> that we all must do in life to get along and get by. Not to

demand more

> than others have. Not to take without giving. Not to feed the

selfish

> parts of us all the time.

Okay, I'm reading this as a statement of personal values (or in
unschooling jargon "principles"). One of the troubles I'm seeing is
that they're all starting with the word "not" - that's important.
Knowing what you want to avoid in life doesn't necessarily help you
move Toward anything. How could you re-think these ideas in a more
positive way? Generosity, perhaps? Then think about how you can
encourage generosity in your home - first by modelling it yourself,
and then by helping your kids find ways to be generous of one
another.

Do you see how you have to shift your thinking to do that? Its
unlikely that anyone is going to feel generous towards a brother
when he's always being asked to give things up - he's more likely to
feel put-upon. So how can you help your guys feel as though their
lives are so Full - of love, care, time, grace, and joy - that they
can give those things away by the handful? More parenting. More
presence and love and care and time and grace and joy From Mom.

> Upon further reflection I don't believe that it's OK for anyone to

always

> say no all the time.

This is why unchoolers work to Say Yes More! Moms and dads are often
in the position of saying No over and over - not right now, stop it,
you can't have x until you do y, etc. Find ways to say Yes, yourself
so your kids can see what a life full of possibilites looks like.
Yes you can have another. Yes, I'm available right now. Yes, I'm
listening. Yes, your thoughts and feeling and wants and wishes and
hopes and dreams are important to me. Yes, I love you with all my
heart. Yes, there is enough love, time, grace, and joy for all of us
all the time.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Rebecca De Hate

2 Oct 2007, at 10:37am

Dear unschooling group/joyce:

Hello I am Rebecca DeHate and I kind of unschool... Here's my scoop
my friend hooked me up with this group about 2 years ago when I was
having difficulty with my child (or should I say I was having
difficulties with how to be a consensual/mindful parent-- wasn't at
all up to that point). Anyway, I checked out this sight and the
light bulbs came on..I started working on some of the approaches
suggested in our discussions. However, since than I've gotten busy
(aren't we all) and have been slipping into old patterns. Like
demanding, yelling, etc. Thanks to the above subject (you don't make
them do anything?) Joanne happen to put something into perspect ---
and that is to in general or overall if we work on respecting each
others wishes, respecting a NO response, and finding mutual
agreements -- argueing and fighting will lessen.,...

So with that here are some questions for all of you>

First I'll tell you a bit about myself: I'm basically a single
parent, I know have a boyfriend that lives with me and we are working
on a partnership.... anyway I have a 5 year old boy, Ian who has
benefitted tremendously when I have implemented mindful parenting, a
19 month old son who I haven't been implementing the best tactics and
need some help with, and now a 14 year old "step-daughter" who I try
to implement mindful parenting but kind of battle the dad with his
demanding, old fashioned I can say "no" because I'm the parent and I
know best attitude (which I often slip into also -- old patterns are
truly hard to break).

Secondly, I am not an unschooler completely because both my 5 year
old and 14 year old go to school. I chose for my 5 year old to go
because he really wanted to go plus I work. and I and her dad have
given the 14 year old a choice to home school but she want to go to
school still. sooo....

However, I value the thoughts of unschooler because the parenting
ideals can be applied no matter what and thus far you folks are about
the only ones that I feel "right" with their thoughts on parenting.

soooo.... here's a scenerio that has occured and I would love some
input on how unschoolers would have responded.
The 14 year old came home with a progress report from earth
science stating she had missed at least 3 homework assignments and is
holding a c in the class. Now her dad and I took away her going to
games (soccer and football) until her grade came up and homework was
being done....
her response: pissy for a week, kept herself in her room, tried
to keep talking dad to let her go to games, attitude in general,
didn't really help around house at all (dad's a truck driver -- when
he's gone she is usually very helpful to me -- helps keep the house
up, babysits the boys, and rarely gives me an attitude ) Now before
her dad left for another trip I asked if we should come to a happy
compromise so she could go to games but for any missed homework or
c's on report card she would miss a game per... now I know
unschoolers don't have to deal with grades which I wish I didn't have
to either but I feel like because this is where were at we need to
keep encouraging her to keep up with school. Now let me back track
just a little, when I looked at her progress report when she did her
homework she usually recieved all the points -- so from that I glean
that she is can do the homework just chose not to... And at the same
time her dad has state that he doesn't need her to have all a's just
as long as she's trying.(not doing homework is not trying)

Ok here's another scenerio with my 19 month old. when he doesn't
get his way or we just don't understand what he wants he has quite a
fit... screaming at top of his lungs hitting, etc. I'm not even sure
how to respond ... i try to side track, I've yelled (oops that's so
wrong I know that I'm just encouraging what he's already doing) I've
even spanked -- another no -no but old habit -- I even hate it....
but sometimes it just sets me into another world --- however, since
I've been making myself pay attention again, I'm trying to just
remain calm and even ignore it ... Is ignoring the right thing to do -
- I'm thinking if I just ignore it he'll know it isn't working..(why
is it I feel like a new mom half the time??) anyway, some of things
we "fight" over : he wants to go outside and it's too wet or I'm
just not ready to go out yet or both, Yesterday, he wanted
something done with his rocking horse and I just didn't know what??
went for a walk and he didn't want to but the rest of us were ---
forgot stroller... tried to just have him let me rest a little -- at
the end of the walk he finally was willing to walk --- what did he
just see the car and know it was almost over:)

Another flaw of mine is that I swear. Now in my eyes casual swear
words here and there are no big deal --=- but when I swear at the
kids it's just not right sounds super harsh --any suggestions how to
correct this ---

Another super big flaw of mine is that I just blow up rather easy...
I have corrected this in the past and know that some of the excuses i
give for it is stress over money, decisions, lack of sleep, (I do
take zoloft that helps curb the stress factor) etc but there just
excuses it isn't my kids fault...

So there it is my candid thoughts and questions I look forward to
your thoughts ...

Sylvia Toyama

2 Oct 2007, at 1:03pm

Another helpful book for me -- not so much about unschooling, more about the whole idea of *we all have to do chores we hate* was Everyday Blessings; The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting, by Jon & Myla Kabat-Zinn.

You can find an excerpt from it entitled Raising Children as a Spriritual Practice here http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/2007/09/everyday-blessings.html at Mary Gold's blog (Mary's known on unschooling groups as zenmomma).

Sylvia

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

2 Oct 2007, at 1:32pm

I'm going to answer your questions in reverse order bc the little-
kid question is more on topic wrt unschooling:

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca De Hate"
<rebeccadehate@...> wrote:

> Ok here's another scenerio with my 19 month old. when he doesn't
> get his way or we just don't understand what he wants he has quite

> fit... screaming at top of his lungs hitting, etc. I'm not even

sure

> how to respond ... i try to side track, I've yelled (oops that's

> wrong I know that I'm just encouraging what he's already doing)

I've

> even spanked

Some kids are more emotionally volitile and more expressive than
others. Some kids are more easily frustrated. It may help you to
acknowledge that - its not necessarily a Bad thing that he's melting
down, he just doesn't have the skills to do anything else yet. If
you can prevent more of these situations (the whole paying attention
thing only moreso) that will be good all 'round.

A lot of preventing those kinds of situations involves thinking out
of the box. Its raining but we can put some boots on. Its getting
dark so lets get a flashlight. The store's not open yet, but we can
do something fun while we wait. Some of the thinking out of the box
involves flat-out asking yourself "why the heck not?" and realizing
that the only reason why is that your mom never let you do it when
you were small. Oops.

Sometimes the only answer really is "no" or "I'm sorry, that's just
not possible". Mom can't make it stop raining, can't keep the sun
from going down, can't put the milk back in the broken glass. And
sometimes a child needs some time to react to those impossibilities
without mom trying to stop the crying or fix the unfixable.
Depending on the child, he may need a hug, or a few words of shared
sadness, or something safe to hit, or a quiet, safe space where he
doesn't have to look at any other person. Figuring out what a child
needs in those moments takes a certain amount of trial and error,
but even when nothing seems to be working you can keep saying "I'm
sorry" - or some other expression of shared disappointment.

> Another super big flaw of mine is that I just blow up rather

easy...

> I have corrected this in the past and know that some of the

excuses i

> give for it is stress over money, decisions, lack of sleep, (I do
> take zoloft that helps curb the stress factor) etc but there just
> excuses it isn't my kids fault...

Its important to take care of your own needs as much as possible so
that you have the reserves you need to handle issues that come up
unexpectedly. I'm going to toss out a link to "Always Unschoooled"
since we recently had a thread over there about the care and feeding
of moms of young children:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled

Taking care of our own needs is a perrenial problem for lots and
lots of moms. Keep in mind that when your reserves are "topped up"
is when you get to practice the skills you need to cope better when
you're running on empty. And the bad blow-ups are at least a place
to consider what you might have done better and maybe learn
something - and a time when you get to practice appologising to your
kids. That's an imporatnt skill, too.

>> The 14 year old came home with a progress report from earth
> science stating she had missed at least 3 homework assignments and

> holding a c in the class.

Okay, I'm probably going to say the most radical thing you've ever
heard anyone say about homework, so brace yourself really hard -
ready? Do it for her. I'm totally serious. If she's missing
asignments and still passing the course, then the homework isn't
helping her learn the material anyway - if the homework didn't count
*against* her, she'd be getting a better grade. So take the homework
out of the equation.

I run another board for unschoolers with atypical families (some
kids in school, single parents, step-kids, etc) if you're interested
in talking about this sort of thing in more detail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crazylifeunschoolers

I believe there's also an "unschooling school" list - anyone have
the addy? I don't recall it offhand.

>Now her dad and I took away her going to
> games (soccer and football) until her grade came up and homework

was

> being done....
> her response: pissy for a week, kept herself in her room,

tried

> to keep talking dad to let her go to games, attitude in general,

Yup, that's what happens. Otoh, if you were doing her homework for
her, you'd have some time together in the evenings (she'll probably
need to copy it out in her own handwriting) and she'll feel
supported and grateful, rather than pissy. She'll learn that she can
depend on you to help her out if she needs it, without giving her
crap.

> her dad has state that he doesn't need her to have all a's just
> as long as she's trying.(not doing homework is not trying)

From her perspective, doing homework *isn't* trying, its a useless
waste of her time. And she's right - even with the missed
assignments, she's still passing. Its fortuante for y'all that she
even has the option of choosing to not-do homework and accept a
lower grade. Many school districts are starting to penalize students
in other ways for missed homework - at my stepson's school, they
adminisitered corporal punishment and detentions for missed
asignments!

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Joyce Fetteroll

2 Oct 2007, at 2:05pm

On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Rebecca De Hate wrote:

> when I looked at her progress report when she did her
> homework she usually recieved all the points -- so from that I glean
> that she is can do the homework just chose not to

What if your boyfriend made you, for the next 12 years go to 6 hours
of classes that you didn't like even though he said it would be
important for the future? What if at some point it hit you that the
classes weren't just unliked but a pointless waste of your time?

What if you found more meaningful things to do with your time and
your grades slipped? What if he took away the things you enjoyed
until your grades came up?

How would you feel? Would you feel convinced he was right about the
classes? Would you feel it was important to do the work? Would you
feel warmer towards him? Would you feel it deepened your relationship
with him?

Once you can see what it looks like through her eyes, I think her
behavior sounds perfectly reasonable and the parents' behavior sounds
unreasonable. (Even though millions of parents would disagree!)

Sandra Dodd wrote an essay about school choice:

http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice

There's also a book by the woman who wrote The Teenage Liberation
Handbook. It's
Guerrilla Learning by Grace Llewellyn. It's subtitled How to give
your kids a real education with or without school.

http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Learning-Education-Without-School/dp/
0471349607/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1401809-3122206?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191346900&sr=1-1

You did say it was her choice to go to school, but why impose *your*
expectations on what she needs to get out of it? If she wants to go
to school for social reasons, that's as valid as for academic. But I
think Sandra covers that fairly well in her essay.

> when he doesn't
> get his way
>

It will be hugely helpful when looking at the problem he's having to
see this as "when he doesn't get his needs met" or "when he can't get
his point across".

> Is ignoring the right thing to do
>

If you were so supremely frustrated because people weren't
understanding you that you had to drop to the floor to scream out
your frustration, would you want people to ignore you?

(It depends on the child, of course and depends on what triggers it.
The point is don't ask us. Look at your child and figure out what
*he* wants you to do.)

While it always sounds rude, but the mindful parenting approach is to
become more aware to tend to the child before the tantrum hits.
Anticipate his needs. Is he too hot or cold? Is he running low on
fuel? Is he tired? Has he been sitting to long?

We can't, of course, always do that. Sometimes *they* don't know
what's wrong, but the focus is in being more aware to minimize the
meltdowns. The fewer meltdowns he has, the more he feels you 're
doing your best to meet his needs, the more forgiving he'll be when
they aren't. (Though it might be much to expect of a 19 mo. It *will*
come.)

It can also be his age.

But try to think in terms of "Yes". Which doesn't always mean "I'll
drop this right now and do that." It means, "I'm taking your request
seriously but there's a few obstacles in my way." So you can say
"Yes, let's get our umbrellas and go out." (But really, weren't kids
made to get wet?) "Yes, I'll be done with the dishes in 10 minutes.
If you'd like to keep me company the time will seem to go faster."
There's a post I wrote "Always say yes" that's here:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/alwayssayyes.html

That's just the tip of possibilities. The question has come up a lot
and it might be worth going through the archives for other responses.

> Another super big flaw of mine is that I just blow up rather easy...
>

Lots of anger is about lack of control. It's natural to get upset
when the world isn't working the way we want it to. So a lot of it is
mentally shifting to the idea that the world isn't in our control. It
becomes pointless to be angry at the rain when we know there isn't
anything we can do to make it stop! :-) And that feeling can extend
to other parts of life.

We can *affect* the world by our actions but we can't *control* it.

Often it's also about expectations (which is related). When we expect
the world to do one thing, or expect another person to behave in one
way and they don't then it's frustrating. So dropping expectations is
another mental shift.

That makes it sound simple, but of course it isn't! It does take a
determination to change and it's easy to slip back into old ways.
Focusing on the person you want to be helps a lot. Pam Sorooshian
talks about giving yourself two choices and then choosing the better
one. Rather than trying to become perfect, just work on being better
and better. You'll have setbacks but focus on making the next moment
better.

Joyce