Reading Question
lauramaya1
I apologize if this question has been asked already. How do children actually learn to read
completely by themselves. If they learn by themselves, why do we have adults who are
illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that I can explain to family and friends. Thanks
for your time. Laura
completely by themselves. If they learn by themselves, why do we have adults who are
illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that I can explain to family and friends. Thanks
for your time. Laura
marmar843
--- In [email protected], "lauramaya1" <irontri73@...>
wrote:
reading system. The system sounds out each letter in the word. It is a
great system.
Mary
wrote:
>children actually learn to read
> I apologize if this question has been asked already. How do
> completely by themselves. If they learn by themselves, why do wehave adults who are
> illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that I can explainto family and friends. Thanks
> for your time. LauraMy daughter learn to read on her own with the help of the LEAP FROG
>Hi Laura,
reading system. The system sounds out each letter in the word. It is a
great system.
Mary
Manisha Kher
--- lauramaya1 <irontri73@...> wrote:
brings to my mind an image of leaving a child with
books and expecting them to read someday. I would
describe it as learning to read without being taught.
It includes help when asked for.
My daughter has learned to read without being taught.
She's not fluent yet, but close. We read to her since
she was little. She knew some of those little kid
books by heart. When she wanted to learn to read, she
picked up those books and tried to associate the words
she knew with the words on the paper. She didn't do a
whole lot of that. Mostly, she picked up comic books
and spent hours trying to read them, occasionally
asking us what this or that word was. She had no use
for any "easy readers" because she found them boring.
My son did something similar when he wanted to learn
letters. First of all, he had no use for letters till
he could learn entire words - such as his name and his
sister's name. Then one day he asked me to put the
magnetic letters in order on the refrigerator. Then
he sang the ABCD song many times while touching each
letter as he sang it. Once he was reasonably sure he
knew the letters, he stopped playing with them and has
not in anyway attempted to further his reading skills.
He'll do it when he has a need for it.
We have always acted as though reading is easy and my
kids will learn it when they're developmentally ready.
This is in contrast to schools which make reading into
a difficult subject by pushing it down the kid's
throats when they're not ready. Also schools divide
reading into many small steps that are to be mastered
sequentially. But there was nothing linear and
sequential in the way my daughter learned to read. She
can read long words when they appear in context, in
something that interests her - like Yu Gi Oh cards and
I'm sure she'll fumble on many of the "100 sight
words" if presented as a list.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
> I apologize if this question has been asked already.I wouldn't put it as "completely by themselves". That
> How do children actually learn to read
> completely by themselves. If they learn by
> themselves, why do we have adults who are
> illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that
> I can explain to family and friends. Thanks
> for your time. Laura
>
brings to my mind an image of leaving a child with
books and expecting them to read someday. I would
describe it as learning to read without being taught.
It includes help when asked for.
My daughter has learned to read without being taught.
She's not fluent yet, but close. We read to her since
she was little. She knew some of those little kid
books by heart. When she wanted to learn to read, she
picked up those books and tried to associate the words
she knew with the words on the paper. She didn't do a
whole lot of that. Mostly, she picked up comic books
and spent hours trying to read them, occasionally
asking us what this or that word was. She had no use
for any "easy readers" because she found them boring.
My son did something similar when he wanted to learn
letters. First of all, he had no use for letters till
he could learn entire words - such as his name and his
sister's name. Then one day he asked me to put the
magnetic letters in order on the refrigerator. Then
he sang the ABCD song many times while touching each
letter as he sang it. Once he was reasonably sure he
knew the letters, he stopped playing with them and has
not in anyway attempted to further his reading skills.
He'll do it when he has a need for it.
We have always acted as though reading is easy and my
kids will learn it when they're developmentally ready.
This is in contrast to schools which make reading into
a difficult subject by pushing it down the kid's
throats when they're not ready. Also schools divide
reading into many small steps that are to be mastered
sequentially. But there was nothing linear and
sequential in the way my daughter learned to read. She
can read long words when they appear in context, in
something that interests her - like Yu Gi Oh cards and
I'm sure she'll fumble on many of the "100 sight
words" if presented as a list.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
April Morris
No child learns to read "by themselves" in a vacuum....but I didn't teach my
youngest to read. I did however read to him a lot, provide lots of books,
pointed out words as they occurred in our everyday activities. As with most
kids, he wanted to know how to write his name. Then write his siblings
names. Sounds and letters and words are everywhere. I and his siblings were
always available to answer his questions. Soon he was reading. And
interestingly enough, the child I never 'taught' to read learned to read at
a much earlier age than the older kids that I tried to teach to read (in our
pre-unschooling days).
--
~April
Mom to Kate-21, (out on her own now), Lisa-18, Willis-17, Karl-16, & Ben-12.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey
youngest to read. I did however read to him a lot, provide lots of books,
pointed out words as they occurred in our everyday activities. As with most
kids, he wanted to know how to write his name. Then write his siblings
names. Sounds and letters and words are everywhere. I and his siblings were
always available to answer his questions. Soon he was reading. And
interestingly enough, the child I never 'taught' to read learned to read at
a much earlier age than the older kids that I tried to teach to read (in our
pre-unschooling days).
--
~April
Mom to Kate-21, (out on her own now), Lisa-18, Willis-17, Karl-16, & Ben-12.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey
On 9/13/07, lauramaya1 <irontri73@...> wrote:
>
> I apologize if this question has been asked already. How do children
> actually learn to read
> completely by themselves. If they learn by themselves, why do we have
> adults who are
> illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that I can explain to family
> and friends. Thanks
> for your time. Laura
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
Not sure if I'm saying this well, but these examples look to me like
"Connection Trumps Everything" in action. Pursuing the relationship is
key. Reading (or math, or scuba diving, or whatever) flows naturally as the
child is ready, and as s/he chooses to pursue it.
It's also not something that comes intuitively to a lot of people.
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Elissa (4-ish) and Genevieve (Almost 6!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Connection Trumps Everything" in action. Pursuing the relationship is
key. Reading (or math, or scuba diving, or whatever) flows naturally as the
child is ready, and as s/he chooses to pursue it.
It's also not something that comes intuitively to a lot of people.
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Elissa (4-ish) and Genevieve (Almost 6!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
If a child is in an *enriched* environment, they will learn to read. When
others babies are walking and talking, a baby learns to walk and talk. Human
beings have a strong, innate desire to be like the humans around them. If
you read to them, they will learn to read. Quite simple. Just like as you
talk to them, they learn to talk. Think for a minute how really, really
difficult talking is!! It is probably the most difficult thing that we will ever
learn, and we take it for granted because we taught ourselves! Think about the
syntax, grammar, etc that I child learns; and never has to be told!!!
Many will memorize the words from the book, and then extrapolate that
information to other readings. By picking reading apart, and teaching them
letters, phonics, etc; it can actually complicate the learning process. Let nature
take its course, and be patient. Some learn to read as early as 4, while
many boys are not ready until 8-12 years old. I recommend reading John Holt's
books. When they do learn to read and write, you do *not* even need to
correct them if they read or write a word wrong. They will self-correct, as they
learn to read more.
There is also a book out, GNYS at WORK (genius at work), which is an account
of a child learning to read and write all by himself.
Warmly,
Cynthia
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
others babies are walking and talking, a baby learns to walk and talk. Human
beings have a strong, innate desire to be like the humans around them. If
you read to them, they will learn to read. Quite simple. Just like as you
talk to them, they learn to talk. Think for a minute how really, really
difficult talking is!! It is probably the most difficult thing that we will ever
learn, and we take it for granted because we taught ourselves! Think about the
syntax, grammar, etc that I child learns; and never has to be told!!!
Many will memorize the words from the book, and then extrapolate that
information to other readings. By picking reading apart, and teaching them
letters, phonics, etc; it can actually complicate the learning process. Let nature
take its course, and be patient. Some learn to read as early as 4, while
many boys are not ready until 8-12 years old. I recommend reading John Holt's
books. When they do learn to read and write, you do *not* even need to
correct them if they read or write a word wrong. They will self-correct, as they
learn to read more.
There is also a book out, GNYS at WORK (genius at work), which is an account
of a child learning to read and write all by himself.
Warmly,
Cynthia
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~If they learn by themselves, why do we have adults
who are illiterate? ~~
Find me an illiterate adult, and I'll show you a formerly schooled
person. Illiteracy happens because early on in the reading journey,
the child is taught that they aren't smart enough/good enough/capable
enough and they learn to hide the fact that they can't read.
Force and coercion shut down the natural learning process. Schools are
great at creating that damage. Illiteracy doesn't happen when one is
supported and nourished and allowed to learn at their own pace.
My children didn't learn to read "on their own", nor did anyone teach
them. I read to them. I answered their questions. We have books,
video games, computers and other sources of written language
available. I've had one learn to read (and I'm talking fluent reading,
not the beginning stages) around 7 years, one around 8, one at 12 and
one is still not interested in the written word much at all at 6.5
years of age.
I have a pretty good idea at this point that my youngest WILL read
when he's good and ready after watching three other children do it.;)
I know that he's picking up cues from the written word and
assimilating it into his world, which will eventually become the
process of decoding language.
Your children learned to walk and talk, they will learn to read. Trust
the process, make their lives interesting and joyful and it will all
happen in it's own time. Be available and connected and natural
learning will blossom.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
who are illiterate? ~~
Find me an illiterate adult, and I'll show you a formerly schooled
person. Illiteracy happens because early on in the reading journey,
the child is taught that they aren't smart enough/good enough/capable
enough and they learn to hide the fact that they can't read.
Force and coercion shut down the natural learning process. Schools are
great at creating that damage. Illiteracy doesn't happen when one is
supported and nourished and allowed to learn at their own pace.
My children didn't learn to read "on their own", nor did anyone teach
them. I read to them. I answered their questions. We have books,
video games, computers and other sources of written language
available. I've had one learn to read (and I'm talking fluent reading,
not the beginning stages) around 7 years, one around 8, one at 12 and
one is still not interested in the written word much at all at 6.5
years of age.
I have a pretty good idea at this point that my youngest WILL read
when he's good and ready after watching three other children do it.;)
I know that he's picking up cues from the written word and
assimilating it into his world, which will eventually become the
process of decoding language.
Your children learned to walk and talk, they will learn to read. Trust
the process, make their lives interesting and joyful and it will all
happen in it's own time. Be available and connected and natural
learning will blossom.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
> My daughter learn to read on her own with the help of the LEAP FROGI think an important aspect that worried parents should realize is
> reading system.
that handing a child a Leap Frog will not turn that child into a reader.
What happened is the child was developmentally ready, was inherently
curious about the information (probably because she was ready) and
she pulled the information she needed and was curious about from the
toy. She made connections because she was curious and ready.
It's much more helpful to see natural learning as children pulling in
what piques their interest and satisfies some internal need rather
than some outside agent pushing the information in.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
Good point, Ren. I have a good example of this. Rachel was four years
old, and already sounding stuff out. When we sent her to preK, it
took very little time for the teacher to realize that she loved
reading and *could* be reading well. So they pushed it. They sent
home notes to *me* to push it. I tried not to, but it's ubiquitous.
By Thanksgiving, she was frustrated. Over the break, she finally
looked at me and said "Mom! You can't MAKE me learn to read!" Ahhh.
Just another one of the one billion tick marks of 'why we should
homeschool'.
For those who are on the list and considering pulling kids from
school....DON'T WAIT! The worst thing I did was listen to my husband
when he said the kids should get 'closure'. What they needed was to
be honored and pulled out as soon as my thick head understood that it
needed done. There is no reason to wait...and you likely will regret
it, because every day was another WEEK of deschooling needed to find
their true selves. Josh and Bre were in for five years, Emily two and
Rachel one. I'm still kicking myself for not pulling them out before
we did. I think that pulling them out in the middle of the year may
help the process, because they see that you are taking their souls
seriously.
Just an opinion from a BTDT mom, YMMV.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
old, and already sounding stuff out. When we sent her to preK, it
took very little time for the teacher to realize that she loved
reading and *could* be reading well. So they pushed it. They sent
home notes to *me* to push it. I tried not to, but it's ubiquitous.
By Thanksgiving, she was frustrated. Over the break, she finally
looked at me and said "Mom! You can't MAKE me learn to read!" Ahhh.
Just another one of the one billion tick marks of 'why we should
homeschool'.
For those who are on the list and considering pulling kids from
school....DON'T WAIT! The worst thing I did was listen to my husband
when he said the kids should get 'closure'. What they needed was to
be honored and pulled out as soon as my thick head understood that it
needed done. There is no reason to wait...and you likely will regret
it, because every day was another WEEK of deschooling needed to find
their true selves. Josh and Bre were in for five years, Emily two and
Rachel one. I'm still kicking myself for not pulling them out before
we did. I think that pulling them out in the middle of the year may
help the process, because they see that you are taking their souls
seriously.
Just an opinion from a BTDT mom, YMMV.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:09 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
>
> Force and coercion shut down the natural learning process. Schools are
> great at creating that damage. Illiteracy doesn't happen when one is
> supported and nourished and allowed to learn at their own pace.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Gloodt
When my son was about 4.5 years old, I bought him some "Bob" books-
a small box of books with easy, small-word "stories".
I thought they were great, and so did he- for a while.
He started sounding out some of the words and I was so excited he was reading,
then suddenly, he lost interest completely.
So, we stopped looking at the books for months.
When I started noticing he was interested again, I bought the next box of books
with more interesting "stories" in it, but didn't make a big deal about them,
and he started reading them so quickly!
Melissa, I feel your pain. I wish I had never sent my son to public school in the first
place. I took him out half way through 4th grade- much too late, I think.
My husband also wanted him to finish out the school year, saying that he didn't want
our son to think he could just "give up" when things weren't going the way he wanted them to go....
But we had just come home from a homeschooling conference, and I knew before we went that I'd be excited to start right away when we came home. Sure enough, I was, and although my husband was not on board, I took my son out of school. We had a few arguments about it after that, and for a while I wasn't sure I did the right thing.
But thinking of my son sitting in that classroom for even another day assured me I did what was best.
He still got his yearbook at the end of the school year, and his teacher even allowed him to come to class and have it signed by the students- I went with him.
He still plays with a few of the boys from school, but we're part of a couple groups near us, so he has access to other 'unschoolers'.
I know the feeling of kicking yourself over not taking them out sooner, but it's great to just concentrate on how nice it is that you don't have to go back, and maybe even make up for lost time by doing all the things you would've done with them had they been home from the start.
Melissa <autismhelp@...> wrote:
Good point, Ren. I have a good example of this. Rachel was four years
old, and already sounding stuff out. When we sent her to preK, it
took very little time for the teacher to realize that she loved
reading and *could* be reading well. So they pushed it. They sent
home notes to *me* to push it. I tried not to, but it's ubiquitous.
By Thanksgiving, she was frustrated. Over the break, she finally
looked at me and said "Mom! You can't MAKE me learn to read!" Ahhh.
Just another one of the one billion tick marks of 'why we should
homeschool'.
For those who are on the list and considering pulling kids from
school....DON'T WAIT! The worst thing I did was listen to my husband
when he said the kids should get 'closure'. What they needed was to
be honored and pulled out as soon as my thick head understood that it
needed done. There is no reason to wait...and you likely will regret
it, because every day was another WEEK of deschooling needed to find
their true selves. Josh and Bre were in for five years, Emily two and
Rachel one. I'm still kicking myself for not pulling them out before
we did. I think that pulling them out in the middle of the year may
help the process, because they see that you are taking their souls
seriously.
Just an opinion from a BTDT mom, YMMV.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
a small box of books with easy, small-word "stories".
I thought they were great, and so did he- for a while.
He started sounding out some of the words and I was so excited he was reading,
then suddenly, he lost interest completely.
So, we stopped looking at the books for months.
When I started noticing he was interested again, I bought the next box of books
with more interesting "stories" in it, but didn't make a big deal about them,
and he started reading them so quickly!
Melissa, I feel your pain. I wish I had never sent my son to public school in the first
place. I took him out half way through 4th grade- much too late, I think.
My husband also wanted him to finish out the school year, saying that he didn't want
our son to think he could just "give up" when things weren't going the way he wanted them to go....
But we had just come home from a homeschooling conference, and I knew before we went that I'd be excited to start right away when we came home. Sure enough, I was, and although my husband was not on board, I took my son out of school. We had a few arguments about it after that, and for a while I wasn't sure I did the right thing.
But thinking of my son sitting in that classroom for even another day assured me I did what was best.
He still got his yearbook at the end of the school year, and his teacher even allowed him to come to class and have it signed by the students- I went with him.
He still plays with a few of the boys from school, but we're part of a couple groups near us, so he has access to other 'unschoolers'.
I know the feeling of kicking yourself over not taking them out sooner, but it's great to just concentrate on how nice it is that you don't have to go back, and maybe even make up for lost time by doing all the things you would've done with them had they been home from the start.
Melissa <autismhelp@...> wrote:
Good point, Ren. I have a good example of this. Rachel was four years
old, and already sounding stuff out. When we sent her to preK, it
took very little time for the teacher to realize that she loved
reading and *could* be reading well. So they pushed it. They sent
home notes to *me* to push it. I tried not to, but it's ubiquitous.
By Thanksgiving, she was frustrated. Over the break, she finally
looked at me and said "Mom! You can't MAKE me learn to read!" Ahhh.
Just another one of the one billion tick marks of 'why we should
homeschool'.
For those who are on the list and considering pulling kids from
school....DON'T WAIT! The worst thing I did was listen to my husband
when he said the kids should get 'closure'. What they needed was to
be honored and pulled out as soon as my thick head understood that it
needed done. There is no reason to wait...and you likely will regret
it, because every day was another WEEK of deschooling needed to find
their true selves. Josh and Bre were in for five years, Emily two and
Rachel one. I'm still kicking myself for not pulling them out before
we did. I think that pulling them out in the middle of the year may
help the process, because they see that you are taking their souls
seriously.
Just an opinion from a BTDT mom, YMMV.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:09 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
>
> Force and coercion shut down the natural learning process. Schools are
> great at creating that damage. Illiteracy doesn't happen when one is
> supported and nourished and allowed to learn at their own pace.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I have one more quick thing to add to this discussion. When a child is
ready to learn to read, it only takes them about 20 hours to learn. If they are
"pushed" to read before they are ready, like in so many schools; they will
think that they are "stupid", and it can prolong that process....or make them
hate reading.
Happy Reading!
Cynthia
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ready to learn to read, it only takes them about 20 hours to learn. If they are
"pushed" to read before they are ready, like in so many schools; they will
think that they are "stupid", and it can prolong that process....or make them
hate reading.
Happy Reading!
Cynthia
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], amazzingpet@... wrote:
being read to for the most part - this is Mo, my kid with the "words
limit". Especially when she was younger, she didn't want to hear too
many words at a time, and that included being read to. So I rarely
read to her, and more often than not, I'm reading instructions, not
stories. And yet she was one of those kids who was reading early.
This is where the "enriched environment" thing comes in - there's
print *everywhere* in our world. Not just books, there are signs,
packaged food, the computer, the tv, the contents of my purse, many
many toys and tools, automobiles, clocks and watches, home
appliances, clothing.... We have a pretty darn print-rich culture.
That's not to say we don't have to do anything at all to help our
kids out - they do rely on us for information about the world after
all - just that we often don't have to go out of our way to about
the "environment" per se.
Working toward having a rich *relationship* with children goes a
long long way toward providing them with what they need. After all,
if I'm striving to have a rich relationship with my kid, I'm going
to be trying to be sensitive to his/her needs and interests and
wishes and feelings *and* seeking to help him/her find the tools
s/he requires to meet those, right? It's not so much that the
relationship *trumps* everything, as Rob said (although I love that
phrase), as that working on the relationship *informs* everything
else.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
>read. When
> If a child is in an *enriched* environment, they will learn to
> others babies are walking and talking, a baby learns to walk andtalk. Human
> beings have a strong, innate desire to be like the humans aroundthem. If
> you read to them, they will learn to read.I wanted to address this bc I have a child who doesn't really enjoy
being read to for the most part - this is Mo, my kid with the "words
limit". Especially when she was younger, she didn't want to hear too
many words at a time, and that included being read to. So I rarely
read to her, and more often than not, I'm reading instructions, not
stories. And yet she was one of those kids who was reading early.
This is where the "enriched environment" thing comes in - there's
print *everywhere* in our world. Not just books, there are signs,
packaged food, the computer, the tv, the contents of my purse, many
many toys and tools, automobiles, clocks and watches, home
appliances, clothing.... We have a pretty darn print-rich culture.
That's not to say we don't have to do anything at all to help our
kids out - they do rely on us for information about the world after
all - just that we often don't have to go out of our way to about
the "environment" per se.
Working toward having a rich *relationship* with children goes a
long long way toward providing them with what they need. After all,
if I'm striving to have a rich relationship with my kid, I'm going
to be trying to be sensitive to his/her needs and interests and
wishes and feelings *and* seeking to help him/her find the tools
s/he requires to meet those, right? It's not so much that the
relationship *trumps* everything, as Rob said (although I love that
phrase), as that working on the relationship *informs* everything
else.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Meredith
--- In [email protected], amazzingpet@... wrote:
conveniently placed... three hours today, two tomorrow, four the next
day, iykwim. Depending on the kid, it may be twenty minutes now, an
hour a week from now, and so on. "Natural learning" has a whole lot to
do with Human nature - and gosh, we humans can be pretty variable in
some ways.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
>is
> I have one more quick thing to add to this discussion. When a child
> ready to learn to read, it only takes them about 20 hours to learn.Just to be clear about this, though, those 20hrs aren't necessarily
conveniently placed... three hours today, two tomorrow, four the next
day, iykwim. Depending on the kid, it may be twenty minutes now, an
hour a week from now, and so on. "Natural learning" has a whole lot to
do with Human nature - and gosh, we humans can be pretty variable in
some ways.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 15, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Meredith wrote:
and reading books. First of all, I've known lots of people who read
aloud to their kids while their kids played with legos or dolls or
did other things like brushed their teeth, etc. And I'd include
listening to cd's in the car as being "read to." But, it also means
being willing to read stuff on the screen for a child playing video
games. It means reading captions on comic strips. It means reading
signs. At the L&L conference I was talking to a mom (Hi Dawn) with a
couple of little kids who were playing Pokemon on the floor near us.
We'd pause our conversation for a few seconds every so often while
she read cards to them. I loved the way they looked so hard at the
cards, screwing up their foreheads, then they'd say, "Mom, what does
this say?" She'd tell them what it said and they'd scrunch up their
faces again, looking at it carefully, and then very excitedly go back
to playing. It was very cool to watch. That kind of reading to kids
(or maybe "reading for" is a better term) is very very significant
because that's what they want to know how to read. Lots different
from when I was a kid and we were expected to be thrilled with
learning to read, "See Dick. See Dick run. Look Jane. See Dick run." <g>
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I wanted to address this bc I have a child who doesn't really enjoyYes, also, to clarify, being "read to" doesn't have to mean sitting
> being read to for the most part - this is Mo, my kid with the "words
> limit".
and reading books. First of all, I've known lots of people who read
aloud to their kids while their kids played with legos or dolls or
did other things like brushed their teeth, etc. And I'd include
listening to cd's in the car as being "read to." But, it also means
being willing to read stuff on the screen for a child playing video
games. It means reading captions on comic strips. It means reading
signs. At the L&L conference I was talking to a mom (Hi Dawn) with a
couple of little kids who were playing Pokemon on the floor near us.
We'd pause our conversation for a few seconds every so often while
she read cards to them. I loved the way they looked so hard at the
cards, screwing up their foreheads, then they'd say, "Mom, what does
this say?" She'd tell them what it said and they'd scrunch up their
faces again, looking at it carefully, and then very excitedly go back
to playing. It was very cool to watch. That kind of reading to kids
(or maybe "reading for" is a better term) is very very significant
because that's what they want to know how to read. Lots different
from when I was a kid and we were expected to be thrilled with
learning to read, "See Dick. See Dick run. Look Jane. See Dick run." <g>
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
We have a friend who's younger brother had many problems growing up...
his mother was told he was learning disabled/dyslexic etc and had
oppositional issues (she was a single parent having escaped an abusive
marriage with her two boys) At any rate he dropped out of school
around age 15 at which time he was unable to read. He and his 15 yr
old girlfriend had a child, got married, got divorced and his life
continued to spiral out of control until he found a job with a
demolition company. The owner of the demolition company pulled him
aside one day and confronted him about his inability to read. He was
embarrassed and offended etc until his boss told him he figured it out
because he had been unable to read until he was 40 years old and had
recognized the same tricks he had used to hide it! Anyway the
employer promised that he would help him learn to read and guarantee
him a job and promote him as long as he worked hard on mastering
reading. The man shared how frustrated he had been and how he worked
so hard to hide it for so many years and so forth and didn't want to
see this happen to this young man. Our friends brother told the man
he was unable to learn because of his LD and no school had been able
to teach him etc... but the man refused to let him off the hook.
Flash forward 15 years and this same fellow has just opened his own
business after progressing from demolition work to managing the
company for his boss to now opening his own auto repair business which
he started on the side after having taught himself from BOOKS by
READING because he was interested and I believe because someone told
him he COULD instead of that he COULD NOT as the schools had done.
When we tell a child that an institution is infallible we set them up
for all sorts of handicaps ... schools do this all the time. When
the school our daughter was in could not teach her certain skills in
the time they had allotted they told us she was unteachable rather
than trying another method... the flaw was my child and not their
methods according to their superior knowledge! UGH!
All four of my kids have worked towards reading in very different
ways... and so far none of the four have learned in the traditional
way. I have yet to sit down and drill them on letter sounds or force
them to read twaddle because it was their "reading level". We read
to our kids, they see us reading, we have books in our home but we
don't "teach" reading. I didn't teach them to eat, sleep, walk,
talk or lots of other things but they learned to do it. I like to
think I teach them to learn.
Lisa Blocker
his mother was told he was learning disabled/dyslexic etc and had
oppositional issues (she was a single parent having escaped an abusive
marriage with her two boys) At any rate he dropped out of school
around age 15 at which time he was unable to read. He and his 15 yr
old girlfriend had a child, got married, got divorced and his life
continued to spiral out of control until he found a job with a
demolition company. The owner of the demolition company pulled him
aside one day and confronted him about his inability to read. He was
embarrassed and offended etc until his boss told him he figured it out
because he had been unable to read until he was 40 years old and had
recognized the same tricks he had used to hide it! Anyway the
employer promised that he would help him learn to read and guarantee
him a job and promote him as long as he worked hard on mastering
reading. The man shared how frustrated he had been and how he worked
so hard to hide it for so many years and so forth and didn't want to
see this happen to this young man. Our friends brother told the man
he was unable to learn because of his LD and no school had been able
to teach him etc... but the man refused to let him off the hook.
Flash forward 15 years and this same fellow has just opened his own
business after progressing from demolition work to managing the
company for his boss to now opening his own auto repair business which
he started on the side after having taught himself from BOOKS by
READING because he was interested and I believe because someone told
him he COULD instead of that he COULD NOT as the schools had done.
When we tell a child that an institution is infallible we set them up
for all sorts of handicaps ... schools do this all the time. When
the school our daughter was in could not teach her certain skills in
the time they had allotted they told us she was unteachable rather
than trying another method... the flaw was my child and not their
methods according to their superior knowledge! UGH!
All four of my kids have worked towards reading in very different
ways... and so far none of the four have learned in the traditional
way. I have yet to sit down and drill them on letter sounds or force
them to read twaddle because it was their "reading level". We read
to our kids, they see us reading, we have books in our home but we
don't "teach" reading. I didn't teach them to eat, sleep, walk,
talk or lots of other things but they learned to do it. I like to
think I teach them to learn.
Lisa Blocker
Mary McCune
I would like to clarify my last post on reading. I did not just hand my
daughter an outside agent to teach her to read.( I am a child of a 30 year
public school teacher.My mother is the person who told me NOT to school my
daughter when it came time,but i wanted to give her the best of the public
school system and it failed her. If my mother was here(alive) she would
WHOLE heartily agree that UN-schooling is the best for her and us). We have
been reading to my daughter from the time i found out i was pregnant until
she was ready to learn on her own, not only did she use the Leap Pad system
she also use library books as well the old classics ( Dick and Jane,
Ferdinand the bull as well as others). She knew sight words then she wanted
to learn more. I am not saying my child is perfect by any means. But she was
ready to learn on her own in her own time. I was on the sidelines listening
and ready to answer any questions she had and still has.
This is what my daughter wanted to know and learn from me. Our UN-teaching
works best for us. You will have to wait and watch for your child to make
and take steps to read and do other things in their lives.
Just sit or stand back and take the clues from your child(ren). No one
method is correct for all.
daughter an outside agent to teach her to read.( I am a child of a 30 year
public school teacher.My mother is the person who told me NOT to school my
daughter when it came time,but i wanted to give her the best of the public
school system and it failed her. If my mother was here(alive) she would
WHOLE heartily agree that UN-schooling is the best for her and us). We have
been reading to my daughter from the time i found out i was pregnant until
she was ready to learn on her own, not only did she use the Leap Pad system
she also use library books as well the old classics ( Dick and Jane,
Ferdinand the bull as well as others). She knew sight words then she wanted
to learn more. I am not saying my child is perfect by any means. But she was
ready to learn on her own in her own time. I was on the sidelines listening
and ready to answer any questions she had and still has.
This is what my daughter wanted to know and learn from me. Our UN-teaching
works best for us. You will have to wait and watch for your child to make
and take steps to read and do other things in their lives.
Just sit or stand back and take the clues from your child(ren). No one
method is correct for all.
On 9/16/07, Lisa <jlblock01@...> wrote:
>
> We have a friend who's younger brother had many problems growing up...
> his mother was told he was learning disabled/dyslexic etc and had
> oppositional issues (she was a single parent having escaped an abusive
> marriage with her two boys) At any rate he dropped out of school
> around age 15 at which time he was unable to read. He and his 15 yr
> old girlfriend had a child, got married, got divorced and his life
> continued to spiral out of control until he found a job with a
> demolition company. The owner of the demolition company pulled him
> aside one day and confronted him about his inability to read. He was
> embarrassed and offended etc until his boss told him he figured it out
> because he had been unable to read until he was 40 years old and had
> recognized the same tricks he had used to hide it! Anyway the
> employer promised that he would help him learn to read and guarantee
> him a job and promote him as long as he worked hard on mastering
> reading. The man shared how frustrated he had been and how he worked
> so hard to hide it for so many years and so forth and didn't want to
> see this happen to this young man. Our friends brother told the man
> he was unable to learn because of his LD and no school had been able
> to teach him etc... but the man refused to let him off the hook.
> Flash forward 15 years and this same fellow has just opened his own
> business after progressing from demolition work to managing the
> company for his boss to now opening his own auto repair business which
> he started on the side after having taught himself from BOOKS by
> READING because he was interested and I believe because someone told
> him he COULD instead of that he COULD NOT as the schools had done.
> When we tell a child that an institution is infallible we set them up
> for all sorts of handicaps ... schools do this all the time. When
> the school our daughter was in could not teach her certain skills in
> the time they had allotted they told us she was unteachable rather
> than trying another method... the flaw was my child and not their
> methods according to their superior knowledge! UGH!
> All four of my kids have worked towards reading in very different
> ways... and so far none of the four have learned in the traditional
> way. I have yet to sit down and drill them on letter sounds or force
> them to read twaddle because it was their "reading level". We read
> to our kids, they see us reading, we have books in our home but we
> don't "teach" reading. I didn't teach them to eat, sleep, walk,
> talk or lots of other things but they learned to do it. I like to
> think I teach them to learn.
> Lisa Blocker
>
>
>
--
Mary Champion-McCune
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Lisa" <jlblock01@...> wrote:
interest and joy and curiousity, which is wonderful in and of itself.
You don't have to "own" the process - let your kids do that!
It was really challenging for me to step away from the idea that I was
teaching my kid anything at all, but it turned out to be a pretty
important aspect of deschooling for me.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
>I like toAh, but they already *know* how to learn. You're nurturing their
> think I teach them to learn.
interest and joy and curiousity, which is wonderful in and of itself.
You don't have to "own" the process - let your kids do that!
It was really challenging for me to step away from the idea that I was
teaching my kid anything at all, but it turned out to be a pretty
important aspect of deschooling for me.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Ren Allen
~~I like to
the ability to learn. The only thing that can shut that ability down,
is force and coercion (barring any true physical or mental damage).
Nobody needs to teach a child to walk or talk or think or learn. They
WANT to do that. They're programmed to do that. We can model curiosity
and excitement and peaceful problem solving, but I don't think we need
to kid ourselves that we "teach" them to learn. They can do that from
birth.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> think I teach them to learn.~~That might make you feel good, but the truth is, they were born with
the ability to learn. The only thing that can shut that ability down,
is force and coercion (barring any true physical or mental damage).
Nobody needs to teach a child to walk or talk or think or learn. They
WANT to do that. They're programmed to do that. We can model curiosity
and excitement and peaceful problem solving, but I don't think we need
to kid ourselves that we "teach" them to learn. They can do that from
birth.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Lisa
Meredith,
Spot on! What I should have said is that I don't stand in the way
of them learning! HA! Sometimes I really have to rein myself in when
my kids show an interest in something and my first instinct is to run
to the library and check out 25 books about it and go on and on like
they need me to push them to learn something! I see myself as a
facilitator to their learning but only when they want me to be... that
is my biggest goal ....to not get in their way!
Thanks for the reminder to let go of it!
Lisa Blocker
Spot on! What I should have said is that I don't stand in the way
of them learning! HA! Sometimes I really have to rein myself in when
my kids show an interest in something and my first instinct is to run
to the library and check out 25 books about it and go on and on like
they need me to push them to learn something! I see myself as a
facilitator to their learning but only when they want me to be... that
is my biggest goal ....to not get in their way!
Thanks for the reminder to let go of it!
Lisa Blocker
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Lisa" <jlblock01@> wrote:
> >I like to
> > think I teach them to learn.
>
> Ah, but they already *know* how to learn. You're nurturing their
> interest and joy and curiousity, which is wonderful in and of itself.
> You don't have to "own" the process - let your kids do that!
>
> It was really challenging for me to step away from the idea that I was
> teaching my kid anything at all, but it turned out to be a pretty
> important aspect of deschooling for me.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
>
Debra Rossing
>If they are "pushed" to read before they are ready, like in so manyschools; they will think that they are "stupid", and it can prolong that
process
As my so-wise 9 yr old never schooled boy said recently "Forcing kids to
do something slows down learning"
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: lauramaya1 <irontri73@...>
I apologize if this question has been asked already. How do children
actually
learn to read completely by themselves. If they learn by themselves,
why do we have adults
who are illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that I can
explain to family and
friends. Thanks for your time. Laura
-=-=-=-=-=-
Some children IN school don't learn to read. Unschooled children learn
just fine.
The difference is that unschooled children don't learn to read
"completely by themselves." *We* are there to answer their questions.
We supply tons of books and magazines and magnetic letters and games
and computers and ...whatever we can find that has letter and words. We
read for them. We read to them. We listen as they read to us. We play
with words and letters. We sing songs and make up poetry. We solve
riddles. We joke. We play with words---words are not to be feared.
Schools choose to try to teach thirty children in the same way. Those
who can already read or who are ready to read are ushered on as
"readers." The rest are left struggling, thinking they are stupid and
are forever non-readers. They grow up like that. Because they've been
labeled. So they become adult non-readers---but then they're called
illiterate. They're afraid of words.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
From: lauramaya1 <irontri73@...>
I apologize if this question has been asked already. How do children
actually
learn to read completely by themselves. If they learn by themselves,
why do we have adults
who are illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that I can
explain to family and
friends. Thanks for your time. Laura
-=-=-=-=-=-
Some children IN school don't learn to read. Unschooled children learn
just fine.
The difference is that unschooled children don't learn to read
"completely by themselves." *We* are there to answer their questions.
We supply tons of books and magazines and magnetic letters and games
and computers and ...whatever we can find that has letter and words. We
read for them. We read to them. We listen as they read to us. We play
with words and letters. We sing songs and make up poetry. We solve
riddles. We joke. We play with words---words are not to be feared.
Schools choose to try to teach thirty children in the same way. Those
who can already read or who are ready to read are ushered on as
"readers." The rest are left struggling, thinking they are stupid and
are forever non-readers. They grow up like that. Because they've been
labeled. So they become adult non-readers---but then they're called
illiterate. They're afraid of words.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
Schuyler
> I apologize if this question has been asked already. How do childrenI didn't see this the first time, I still haven't completely caught up after
> actually
> learn to read completely by themselves. If they learn by themselves,
> why do we have adults
> who are illiterate? I am just trying to understand so that I can
> explain to family and
> friends. Thanks for your time.
having returned from the U.S.
Anyhow, I have two children who are both coming to terms in their own way
with reading. Simon, who is 10, isn't quite reading yet. Or, at least, not
at a point where he could read a whole book on his own, although he has read
a few Asterix and Obelix comics on his own (he says that some of the longer
words he just skips over, and with Goscinny's sense of humor there are a
quite a few long names). Linnaea, who is 7, has been reading fluently for
maybe 8 months, maybe 10. When she started reading there really wasn't any
obvious run up to reading. She was ready and she was interested and she
read.
I used to think that if Simon applied himself, he would be reading, but I
don't think that anymore. I don't think it is a lack of intention, I think
it is a lack of readiness. I'm not saying this because Linnaea's reading is
somehow evidence that I am creating an environment rich with reading
opportunities. I am more saying that because his approach to reading is so
completely different from Linnaea's. It is an almost methodical approach. We
were in the car with my mom a couple of weeks ago and Simon and Linnaea were
trying to spell words. Simon was either absolutely nailing spellings or a
vowel off. So black was blck sort of thing. Linnaea was miles away. She'd
start a word and then go wandering off letter by letter, until she was so
far away from what she was trying to spell that there was no way I could
guess what she was attempting. There is, for her, at this point (or at the
point 4 weeks ago) a disconnect between what she sees on the page and what
she can see in her head.
I don't think there is any way that I could make Simon read. And if there
was, if by sitting him down and making him do worksheets and work on
flashcards I could make him read, at the end of that process Simon would
know that reading was hard and ardous and that he was kind of stupid when it
came to reading, and probably wouldn't really want to read. But right now,
not being a fluent reader, he knows that his relationship with words is his
own. He knows that Linnaea may be reading now but he will be reading
someday. He doesn't have any doubts. I keep thinking he will, I keep
thinking the fact that many of his friends read will distress him, and it
absolutely never does.
So, I guess, what I would tell your friends and family who are sure that not
being taught to read means that you end up with illiterate adults is to
first ask how many of those illiterate adults went to school. I mean if not
being taught to read means you end up illiterate, surely being taught to
read makes you literate, right? Given an interesting, engaging environment
that has reading as an aspect in it (and reading is an active part of much
of our lives--video games, television, books, magazines, comics, road signs,
grocery stores, typewriters, computers, the internet, game cheat codes, and
so on) children will want to solve the puzzle, and when they are
developmentally ready, they will solve that puzzle. Giving them a piece at a
time, slowly prepping them for the day they are supposed to read will only
work if the day they are supposed to read coincides with the day that person
is ready to read.
Maybe that is too much to say, maybe that is for a deep conversation. Maybe
you'd be better off just saying they are doing a lot of pre-reading work.
Also make sure you tell your friends and family, that they aren't doing it
alone. They are doing it with you and with each other, that it is just part
of growing and developing. And you aren't asking them to do it in a vacuum.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Lisa
My two older children learned to read pretty easily (a little later
for my oldest but once she got it she got it) my 12 yr old who has
some challenges learned to read very slowly bit by bit in a way that
made sense to her brain. Because each time I somehow missed the
"pivotal" moment ... that's assuming it's something you can SEE
happen! I was determined with my 4th child that I was going to watch
closely! Each of my kids have started off with a love a books, been
read to constantly etc... each reach a point in their individual
development where they would ask how to spell something or what does
this word say or write something and want me to tell them what it says
... this past week my 6 yr old was writing words like "balooky" which
once he heard pronounced he thought hilarious! From there he said
"oh balooky rhymes with lacooky" and off he went writing lots of
"nonsense" words that rhymed. They don't have to be real words to get
the idea of rhyming and sounds like this and that... Dr. Seuss made
quite a nice living of doing just that. I think like everything else
they explore it when they are ready and on their own terms ....they
ask us for help when they need it. I hate nothing more than to see a
child ask a parent what a word is and they get this whole long ...
well sound it out what does this letter say and what does this letter
say now put it together ...meanwhile the kid is in tears and just
wanted to know what the word was he didn't ask for a lecture or a
lesson on what letters say! To me that's just showing them how
"hard" reading is and killing the desire! It's different if the kid
wants to know what this letter says or that letter says or wants help
sounding out. If my kids ask what a word is I tell them...usually the
next time they encounter it they know the word!
We have lots of things that the kids can handle as well... a moveable
alphabet, lots of Montessori objects and word cards, the pink, blue
and green word matching cards and such as that. They love to pull
those out and spell out the objects with the alphabet letters because
it's fun... they haven't been drilled on it because that is NOT fun!
Mostly they see us read magazines, books, games, cards etc and are
immersed in a print rich environment. My kids love books and will
ask for a book if given their choice of getting something in any
store. One relishes a reference book like no one else on earth..it
used to bother me that she didn't enjoy fiction.... I just didn't call
it reading if she was poring over reference books... I enjoy fiction
and thought she was missing out! I had to let go of that perception
and alot of perceptions along the way like everyone else!
To me seeing my kids read for the first time is just as exciting as
those first wobbly steps!
Lisa B
for my oldest but once she got it she got it) my 12 yr old who has
some challenges learned to read very slowly bit by bit in a way that
made sense to her brain. Because each time I somehow missed the
"pivotal" moment ... that's assuming it's something you can SEE
happen! I was determined with my 4th child that I was going to watch
closely! Each of my kids have started off with a love a books, been
read to constantly etc... each reach a point in their individual
development where they would ask how to spell something or what does
this word say or write something and want me to tell them what it says
... this past week my 6 yr old was writing words like "balooky" which
once he heard pronounced he thought hilarious! From there he said
"oh balooky rhymes with lacooky" and off he went writing lots of
"nonsense" words that rhymed. They don't have to be real words to get
the idea of rhyming and sounds like this and that... Dr. Seuss made
quite a nice living of doing just that. I think like everything else
they explore it when they are ready and on their own terms ....they
ask us for help when they need it. I hate nothing more than to see a
child ask a parent what a word is and they get this whole long ...
well sound it out what does this letter say and what does this letter
say now put it together ...meanwhile the kid is in tears and just
wanted to know what the word was he didn't ask for a lecture or a
lesson on what letters say! To me that's just showing them how
"hard" reading is and killing the desire! It's different if the kid
wants to know what this letter says or that letter says or wants help
sounding out. If my kids ask what a word is I tell them...usually the
next time they encounter it they know the word!
We have lots of things that the kids can handle as well... a moveable
alphabet, lots of Montessori objects and word cards, the pink, blue
and green word matching cards and such as that. They love to pull
those out and spell out the objects with the alphabet letters because
it's fun... they haven't been drilled on it because that is NOT fun!
Mostly they see us read magazines, books, games, cards etc and are
immersed in a print rich environment. My kids love books and will
ask for a book if given their choice of getting something in any
store. One relishes a reference book like no one else on earth..it
used to bother me that she didn't enjoy fiction.... I just didn't call
it reading if she was poring over reference books... I enjoy fiction
and thought she was missing out! I had to let go of that perception
and alot of perceptions along the way like everyone else!
To me seeing my kids read for the first time is just as exciting as
those first wobbly steps!
Lisa B