The Victors

Okay, I am making myself vulnerable, so here it goes. I don�t know where
to start so if I seem to ramble, please forgive me. When I first starting
staying at home over 7 years ago, it was due to a complicated pregnancy. I
seemed to have time to do all sorts of things. Fast forward to the end of
the last school year. I let my then 4th grader and Kindergartener finish
their school year, and never took them back. I decided to homeschool for
several reasons. I researched it all summer, spending hours on the computer
learning about Mr. Holt and Sandra Dodd and countless others who�s name
escapes me. When I first decided to homeschool, my vision was waking the
girls up at 8, fixing a good breakfast of homemade waffles, pancakes,
oatmeal, etc (not all just a variety of such) and then cleaning off the
table and having �school�. I would have �assignments� for them to work on;
we would incorporate recess and lunch into our day, and spend about 4-5
hours doing �school�. Then I read about unschooling and it sounded like
something that would fit better with my kids, but would take a lot of work
on my part. I decided it wasn�t about me; it was about my kids, so I
started researching specifically unschooling and left the research of
curriculum out. I joined this group along with 2 local groups, one
homeschooling mixed with those that unschool and use curriculum and one that
was Christian based unschooling. When our school district had their first
day back to school, we went on our first homeschool activity at a local
party place that has the inflatables that the kids can jump and slide down
and my girls met up with several other homeschooled kids. They loved it and
I was introduced to several of the parents.



Fast forward to today. I have come to realize I stay up too late watching
TV with my 11 year old (they are educational shows she is interested in but
up until 1 am when my 6 and 2 year old go to bed at 7). I wake up tired and
really cranky until I get the coffee running through my veins. On Tuesday
and Thursday, my oldest serves at our church from 10-12 so I make her get up
at 8 to take her shower and get ready to go. She is not getting enough
sleep and is /was cranky and hateful until she drank her coffee. Yes, I was
letting her drink coffee but her dad had a real problem with it so I backed
him up and she is no longer allowed to drink it. Anyway, to stop
rambling�.I am not teaching my kids anything, however they are learning from
the environment I am providing for them. I stay on the computer reading
emails, writing down field trips that my local groups are doing, making
plans to join them, finding ways to save money, researching recipes to
stretch our ever shrinking food budget, paying bills, balancing the
checkbook, etc all while my kids are allowed to do their own thing. I leave
Noggin on the TV which some shows they will watch, others they will go into
their room and grab a toy or make up a game to play. They all have chores
they do around the house, and we have several educational toys that teach.
My 6 year old is addicted to her Lepster Lmax so I bought her some
educational games to play that will help her write her letters and numbers
correctly and teach her to read. I am saving them for Christmas presents,
but she already has 2 games and she learned how to spell some words with
them. My oldest is reading books from the library and watches educational
shows she is interested in and the occasional Hanna Montana. I also bought
her 2 sets of educational Computer Programs that teach math and several high
school courses. (She is very smart and picked them out herself to challenge
herself) My 2 year old learned how to count to 10 by watching Noggin. Both
my 6 and 2 year olds know several Spanish words from watching Dora and
Diego.

I writing this email, it doesn�t seem as bad as I thought it was when I
started typing. I guess I feel like I don�t have as much educational
interaction with them as my parents and in-laws feel I should and I am
starting to doubt myself as a good parent. I had our church bible study
last night and my 2 year old got a hold of a marker and colored on my oldest
one�s door. When the babysitter (I use the word loosely, she doesn�t seem
to watch the kids well) brought me the marker and told me she had colored on
the door, I said �That�s okay. She is showing her creative side which is
challenging me to show my tolerance and patient side�. One of the other
mothers had a shocked look on her face and said �Wow, that would have been a
wooden spoon moment in our house, and I would have taught my son that his
creativity goes on paper, not the doors�. As I proceeded down the hall to
explain to my 2 year old that her pretty drawings only go on paper and if
she colors on the door again (which she has already colored on herself, the
kitchen table, the kitchen walls, and now a door) she will get the time out
chair, I wondered�.Am I having the correct response? She is not getting it,
the unwanted behavior is continuing. Would a �wooden spoon� moment teach
her to stop coloring on everything. My approach has always been, we need to
keep the markers and such out of her reach so that she doesn�t color on
stuff, but the parents in my meeting, their collective response is you teach
the child not to color with the markers in the first place. Their word
�teach� struck a nerve inside me. I have not been able to teach my 2 year
old to stay out of stuff. I have child locks on the bathroom door because
she will go in there and play with the toilet paper, or run the sink over,
or anything else you can think of. At this parents home, she does not have
any gates or child locks on her doors, she teaches her son (who just turned
three) to stay out of such things. I have a lock on my 2 year olds door to
keep her in her room at night because she will get out of her room and get
into all kinds of stuff. Yes, she has gotten time out several times and we
have had a couple of wooden paddle moments, but she still continues the same
behavior.

I am writing because I am actually scheduled to see the author of the strong
willed child speak in person to get help with my 2 year old daughter. I do
not feel spanking for me personally is the answer. I feel hypocritical when
I spank my 2 year old because for the 5th time, she hit the dog.

I guess my rambling email is two fold. I don�t want to be one of the
parents formally listed as saying they are homeschooling their children when
they aren�t and 2, how else can I get my 2 year old�s attention without
breaking her spirit or will. I find it all age appropriate behavior, but
when we are in the presence of other kids her age and her behavior is so
much worse, and I find out they spank their kids and even keep a wooden
spoon with them at all times, I wonder if maybe I am the one that has it all
wrong. I did google unconditional parenting and plan on trying the library
to get a copy.



Thank you for taking the time to read this and a future thank you for the
feedback I know you will help me with.



Melissa V.





The LORD replied:

"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."




No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.13/998 - Release Date: 9/10/2007
8:48 AM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schafer Vanessa

I certainly don't think that you are a bad parent. I
think you need to take some time to breathe. I
remember, that I spanked my kids once or twice when
they were little. We stopped doing that, because we
were teaching the kids it's not nice to hit, but then
we spanked them, so we felt like we were sending them
a mixed message.

Markers can be cleaned off, or painted over. If you 2
year old likes to color on things, why not tape pieces
of paper where she likes to color, or find her a chalk
board. I used to let my son go crazy with the
crayons, when he was little, and we lived in a mobile
home. I thought it was cute, until we decided we
needed to move. It took some elbow grease, but it all
came off. One time he was coloring with markers, and
colored all over his skin-he was brown, orange, and
green. I cleaned him off, and we laughed.

Just because other people spank their kids, doesn't
mean that you are in the wrong, because you don't. I
really don't think spanking accomplishes anything. I
used to take stuff away from my daughter, and it
didn't phase her a bit. She would just find something
else to do.

It's hard now, even though my kids are 10 and 11. I
still have things I need to do, but I always try to
make sure to stop, and spend time with them, and make
sure that they know what they do is important to me.
I know you have more kids than I do, but being a stay
at home mom, and unschooling is a tough job, but can
be really rewarding.

I think if it's possible, find something you guys can
all do together, whether it's play bubbles outside, go
for walks, or go to a park. I am finding that I'm
putting more things on the back burner, and spending
more time doing things with the kids. Mine were in
public school through their 3rd and 4th grade years.

Even though at times, I think we are still
deschooling, I think sometimes more me, than the kids,
we are learning things together. It's definately more
fun than way, and I'm learning right along with them.
We even have movie days sometimes, where I pop
popcorn, and ignore the phone, and the housework, and
just enjoy quiet time with them.

My only advice is (if you can call it that), to stop
being hard on yourself, and thinking you aren't a good
mom. You are not bad for allowing your two year old
to be creative, or to not spank your child/children.
Everyone has their own parenting styles. There are
alot of people that don't agree with the way we raise
our kids, but I tend to let it go through one ear, and
out the other.

Take a deep breath, and relax. Life is good, and is
meant to be enjoyed.

Good luck, and enjoy your kids. They grow up way too
fast.


--- The Victors <dvictor1@...> wrote:

> Okay, I am making myself vulnerable, so here it
> goes. I don’t know where
> to start so if I seem to ramble, please forgive me.
> When I first starting
> staying at home over 7 years ago, it was due to a
> complicated pregnancy. I
> seemed to have time to do all sorts of things. Fast
> forward to the end of
> the last school year. I let my then 4th grader and
> Kindergartener finish
> their school year, and never took them back. I
> decided to homeschool for
> several reasons. I researched it all summer,
> spending hours on the computer
> learning about Mr. Holt and Sandra Dodd and
> countless others who’s name
> escapes me. When I first decided to homeschool, my
> vision was waking the
> girls up at 8, fixing a good breakfast of homemade
> waffles, pancakes,
> oatmeal, etc (not all just a variety of such) and
> then cleaning off the
> table and having “school”. I would have
> “assignments” for them to work on;
> we would incorporate recess and lunch into our day,
> and spend about 4-5
> hours doing “school”. Then I read about unschooling
> and it sounded like
> something that would fit better with my kids, but
> would take a lot of work
> on my part. I decided it wasn’t about me; it was
> about my kids, so I
> started researching specifically unschooling and
> left the research of
> curriculum out. I joined this group along with 2
> local groups, one
> homeschooling mixed with those that unschool and use
> curriculum and one that
> was Christian based unschooling. When our school
> district had their first
> day back to school, we went on our first homeschool
> activity at a local
> party place that has the inflatables that the kids
> can jump and slide down
> and my girls met up with several other homeschooled
> kids. They loved it and
> I was introduced to several of the parents.
>
>
>
> Fast forward to today. I have come to realize I
> stay up too late watching
> TV with my 11 year old (they are educational shows
> she is interested in but
> up until 1 am when my 6 and 2 year old go to bed at
> 7). I wake up tired and
> really cranky until I get the coffee running through
> my veins. On Tuesday
> and Thursday, my oldest serves at our church from
> 10-12 so I make her get up
> at 8 to take her shower and get ready to go. She is
> not getting enough
> sleep and is /was cranky and hateful until she drank
> her coffee. Yes, I was
> letting her drink coffee but her dad had a real
> problem with it so I backed
> him up and she is no longer allowed to drink it.
> Anyway, to stop
> rambling….I am not teaching my kids anything,
> however they are learning from
> the environment I am providing for them. I stay on
> the computer reading
> emails, writing down field trips that my local
> groups are doing, making
> plans to join them, finding ways to save money,
> researching recipes to
> stretch our ever shrinking food budget, paying
> bills, balancing the
> checkbook, etc all while my kids are allowed to do
> their own thing. I leave
> Noggin on the TV which some shows they will watch,
> others they will go into
> their room and grab a toy or make up a game to play.
> They all have chores
> they do around the house, and we have several
> educational toys that teach.
> My 6 year old is addicted to her Lepster Lmax so I
> bought her some
> educational games to play that will help her write
> her letters and numbers
> correctly and teach her to read. I am saving them
> for Christmas presents,
> but she already has 2 games and she learned how to
> spell some words with
> them. My oldest is reading books from the library
> and watches educational
> shows she is interested in and the occasional Hanna
> Montana. I also bought
> her 2 sets of educational Computer Programs that
> teach math and several high
> school courses. (She is very smart and picked them
> out herself to challenge
> herself) My 2 year old learned how to count to 10
> by watching Noggin. Both
> my 6 and 2 year olds know several Spanish words from
> watching Dora and
> Diego.
>
> I writing this email, it doesn’t seem as bad as I
> thought it was when I
> started typing. I guess I feel like I don’t have as
> much educational
> interaction with them as my parents and in-laws feel
> I should and I am
> starting to doubt myself as a good parent. I had
> our church bible study
> last night and my 2 year old got a hold of a marker
> and colored on my oldest
> one’s door. When the babysitter (I use the word
> loosely, she doesn’t seem
> to watch the kids well) brought me the marker and
> told me she had colored on
> the door, I said “That’s okay. She is showing her
> creative side which is
> challenging me to show my tolerance and patient
> side”. One of the other
> mothers had a shocked look on her face and said
> “Wow, that would have been a
> wooden spoon moment in our house, and I would have
> taught my son that his
> creativity goes on paper, not the doors”. As I
> proceeded down the hall to
> explain to my 2 year old that her pretty drawings
> only go on paper and if
> she colors on the door again (which she has already
> colored on herself, the
> kitchen table, the kitchen walls, and now a door)
> she will get the time out
> chair, I wondered….Am I having the correct response?
> She is not getting it,
> the unwanted behavior is continuing. Would a
> “wooden spoon” moment teach
> her to stop coloring on everything. My approach has
> always been, we need to
> keep the markers and such out of her reach so that
> she doesn’t color on
> stuff, but the parents in my meeting, their
> collective response is you teach
> the child not to color with the markers in the first
> place. Their word
> “teach” struck a nerve inside me. I have not been
> able to teach my 2 year
> old to stay out of stuff. I have child locks on the
> bathroom door because
> she will go in there and play with the toilet paper,
> or run the sink over,
> or anything else you can think of. At this parents
> home, she does not have
> any gates or child locks on her doors, she teaches
> her son (who just turned
> three) to stay out of such things. I have a lock on
> my 2 year olds door to
> keep her in her room at night because she will get
> out of her room and get
> into all kinds of stuff. Yes, she has gotten time
> out several times and we
> have had a couple of wooden paddle moments, but she
> still continues the same
> behavior.
>
> I am writing because I am actually scheduled to see
> the author of the strong
> willed child speak in person to get help with my 2
> year old daughter. I do
> not feel spanking for me personally is the answer.
> I feel hypocritical when
> I spank my 2 year old because for the 5th time, she
> hit the dog.
>
> I guess my rambling email is two fold. I don’t want
> to be one of the
> parents formally listed as saying they are
> homeschooling their children when
> they aren’t and 2, how else can I get my 2 year
> old’s attention without
> breaking her spirit or will. I find it all age
> appropriate behavior, but
> when we are in the presence of other kids her age
> and her behavior is so
> much worse, and I find out they spank their kids and
> even keep a wooden
> spoon with them at all times, I wonder if maybe I am
> the one that has it all
> wrong. I did google unconditional parenting and
> plan on trying the library
> to get a copy.
>
>
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read this and a
> future thank you for the
>
=== message truncated ===


Vanessa




____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 11, 2007, at 2:25 PM, The Victors wrote:

> I have come to realize I stay up too late watching
> TV with my 11 year old

Can she stay up by herself?

Can you tape them and watch during the day? Not only don't you have
to stay up, but the shows are lots shorter when you can skip past the
commercials.

> they are educational shows she is interested

And it's *really* okay if they aren't what would be called
"educational". I know you were writing partly to see the educational
interaction you were doing, but with unschooling everything is
educational. Kids learn from what interests them whether than would
be something taught in school or not.

> On Tuesday
> and Thursday, my oldest serves at our church from 10-12 so I make
> her get up
> at 8 to take her shower and get ready to go.

Talk about how she can work out the kinks in the system. Perhaps on
Monday night she can go to bed earlier. Or she can time shift her
shows. Or she can find a different way to help (if *she* wants to
help, otherwise it's conscripted labor).

> she is no longer allowed to drink it

Anything forbidden becomes more attractive. How would you feel if
your husband decided to cut off your coffee. Would you want coffee
less? Would you love him more for being so caring?

> I am not teaching my kids anything

School at homers teach their kids. Unschoolers help their kids
explore what interests them. They run interesting things through
their lives so that they have access to new interests.

"Educational" usually means someone has pulled out all the
"important" facts and presented them for memorization.

Unschoolers are more interested in helping their kids make
discoveries about the world. The don't need to be -- and usually
won't be -- "scientific" discoveries. They'll be "aha" moments for
the child, though. *You* most likely won't see them, but if the child
is engaged, they're making connections and having "aha" moments.

> My 2 year old learned how to count to 10 by watching Noggin. Both
> my 6 and 2 year olds know several Spanish words from watching Dora and
> Diego.

The less you can seek comfort in traditional school markers of
learning, the more comfortable you'll be. While it seems wonderous
that a 2 yo could master counting, it's doubtful she really
understands the concept of numbers. And yet parents will hold that up
as some great achievement. (Just wait, MIT by the time she's 6! ;-)

The more you're able to see how much more powerful the thinking is to
get through a video game than memorize the numbers, you'll be much
more comfortable with unschooling.

> if
> she colors on the door again (which she has already colored on
> herself, the
> kitchen table, the kitchen walls, and now a door) she will get the
> time out
> chair, I wondered�.Am I having the correct response? She is not
> getting it,
> the unwanted behavior is continuing.

Because she's not able to understand in a way that will prevent her
from doing it yet.

What punishment does is say to her that she is deliberately choosing
the wrong action when she knows better. Think about how you felt when
someone accused you of doing something wrong and you had done
whatever it was with good intentions. Does it make you say "Oh, my
goodness, thank you for setting me straight!" or does it make you angry?

She *will* eventually be able to understand. In the meantime you can
make sure markers that are around are only washable ones. Or keep
them up out of her reach unless she can be closely supervised. *Not*
as punishment but as protection.

> Would a �wooden spoon� moment teach
> her to stop coloring on everything.

That's such an obvious form of parent child interaction that everyone
has access to it. Every parent could use that without extensive
reading. So, bottom line, if that type of approach worked, then the
whole world would be so well behaved.

> but the parents in my meeting, their collective response is you teach
> the child not to color with the markers in the first place.

And most parents send their kids to school, too. Doesn't make them
right.

If the primary way of interacting with their kids is to assume their
kids are bad and to punish the badness out of them, I guarantee that
a bunch of them will have kids who are rude and defiant and sneaky by
the time they're teens. As soon as kids get big enough to realize
they don't need to do what they're told, the parents have no
effective means of interacting with their kids.

> I have not been able to teach my 2 year
> old to stay out of stuff. I have child locks on the bathroom door
> because
> she will go in there and play with the toilet paper, or run the
> sink over,
> or anything else you can think of.

Some kids *are* more active. It's not your parenting. It's who your
daughter is. Parents who think there's a one size fits all answer to
unique children either were lucky to have easy kids or have beaten
their kids into submission and they're too scared to do something
that might get them punished.

That's an exaggeration but, if discipline worked, everyone would
behave perfectly. If it worked, we could have a list of good and bad
behaviors and shock the ones who don't stick to the good behaviors
and they'd learn not to stray. Yeah, right.

> At this parents home, she does not have
> any gates or child locks on her doors

I didn't either but that's because my daughter was a very easy child.
At least that much I realized! I could see that my "successes" with
her were because of her personality, not because of anything I did! ;-)

> she teaches her son (who just turned
> three) to stay out of such things.

It could be fear he's reacting to.

It could be his personality.

It could be he truly gets what she's saying (which comes back to
personality.)

> how else can I get my 2 year old�s attention without
> breaking her spirit or will.

Unconditional Parenting is excellent. Raising Your Spirit Child may
also give you some great insight.

> I don�t want to be one of the
> parents formally listed as saying they are homeschooling their
> children when
> they aren�t

If your children are joyfully interacting with their world, if they
have access to new ideas (though they don't need to pick them up,
just be able to reach them when they're ready for something new, then
you can't go wrong.

Joyce

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