Yikes - reality check!
Susan
I just got back from the Live & Learn conference (had an awesome time!!) and
decided to check my email to see what discussions I've missed over the past
week. One posting on a statewide homeschooling list caught my eye - a mom
wrote that she's concerned her daughter is being selfish and spoiled. The
original posting and the many responses that followed (I stopped reading
after the first few) just seemed to GLARE off the page at me in big neon
letters. Maybe it's because I'm still riding on a conference high or because
I just spent a week in a big unschooling bubble, but the heartless and
manipulative flavor of the comments really struck a chord in me.
They probably wouldn't have had quite the same impact on me two or three
years ago, not because I would have agreed with their approach, but because
the view expressed in these comments seemed like such a "normal" attitude to
have towards children. Reading just that one thread about the so-called
"selfish" daughter, I could see a lot of negative emotion being felt about
children. It occurs to me how prevalent and perfectly acceptable this
attitude is.
It was really powerful indicator of how far down the RU path I've come for
me to read the comments like the ones below and have such an intense
heart/gut reaction to them. I'm ready to quit the list and pretend that
world doesn't exist, la lala la la lala (fingers in ears, I can't hear
you!). Has anyone else had this type of reaction? I've been on this
particular list for years but it's never quite repulsed me in this way
before. I know it hasn't changed, it's me who's different, which I'm
absolutely delighted about but at the same time I'm saddened to now have the
ability to see how ugly the traditional parenting world can be.
Since I can't be at special places like L&L everyday, I am more thankful
than ever to come home to the RU lists, where I am challenged to be a better
parent everyday. It's much better than stewing in this kind of ick and
allowing myself to accept/allow these type of harmful attitudes toward my
kids (or anyone else's kids for that matter). In light of the type of
comments and discussions on regular lists, it's extremely refreshing to be
present for the conversations here. Thanks to everyone who has provided a
plethora of ideas for me to think about, new (and improved!) tools for my
parenting basket, and has said just what I needed to hear, even when your
post wasn't directed at me.
~ Susan
3 separate comments that really twisted me up inside:
My step-daughter Jess was very materialistic, and spoiled absolutely rotten.
Whatever she wanted, she got, as long as her parents had the money for it.
I got the opportunity to show her the value of what she already had when we
had a battle of wills over her cleaning her room. I told her that if it
wasn't done by 9:00 Thursday morning, I was going to clean it myself, and I
clean with a lot of garbage bags. She didn't believe me. So when she got
home from after-school stuff that evening, her room was spotless. She was
amazed, and thanked me profusely for cleaning it for her. She was quite
happy, until she went to look for a CD, couldn't find it, and asked me where
it was. "In the garbage." Her other CD's? In the garbage. The clothes
that were piled all over the place? Garbage. Everything that wasn't put away
neatly was in the garbage.
'NEEDS' vs 'wants'. I started trying to teach my cousins the difference many
many years ago (they are 5 and 10 years my junior). I always heard them say,
"But I need a that new dress". I would say, they WANT it because all they
NEED is something that will keep them alive (water, food, you know). They
hated me at the time, but when we are together now, I don't hear the word
NEED :)
He earns 6 dollars a week keeping his room clean and helping me around the
house if he wants extra cash for something he has to do even more....like
helping dad with the yard. It's very hard for me not to spoil my children
with "things" and I could see it becoming a negative thing where they were
expecting instead of thanking so now unless it's a special
occasion...birthday or holiday...they have to pay for it themselves. For
example he's dying for a Wii.... so far no Wii <grin>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
decided to check my email to see what discussions I've missed over the past
week. One posting on a statewide homeschooling list caught my eye - a mom
wrote that she's concerned her daughter is being selfish and spoiled. The
original posting and the many responses that followed (I stopped reading
after the first few) just seemed to GLARE off the page at me in big neon
letters. Maybe it's because I'm still riding on a conference high or because
I just spent a week in a big unschooling bubble, but the heartless and
manipulative flavor of the comments really struck a chord in me.
They probably wouldn't have had quite the same impact on me two or three
years ago, not because I would have agreed with their approach, but because
the view expressed in these comments seemed like such a "normal" attitude to
have towards children. Reading just that one thread about the so-called
"selfish" daughter, I could see a lot of negative emotion being felt about
children. It occurs to me how prevalent and perfectly acceptable this
attitude is.
It was really powerful indicator of how far down the RU path I've come for
me to read the comments like the ones below and have such an intense
heart/gut reaction to them. I'm ready to quit the list and pretend that
world doesn't exist, la lala la la lala (fingers in ears, I can't hear
you!). Has anyone else had this type of reaction? I've been on this
particular list for years but it's never quite repulsed me in this way
before. I know it hasn't changed, it's me who's different, which I'm
absolutely delighted about but at the same time I'm saddened to now have the
ability to see how ugly the traditional parenting world can be.
Since I can't be at special places like L&L everyday, I am more thankful
than ever to come home to the RU lists, where I am challenged to be a better
parent everyday. It's much better than stewing in this kind of ick and
allowing myself to accept/allow these type of harmful attitudes toward my
kids (or anyone else's kids for that matter). In light of the type of
comments and discussions on regular lists, it's extremely refreshing to be
present for the conversations here. Thanks to everyone who has provided a
plethora of ideas for me to think about, new (and improved!) tools for my
parenting basket, and has said just what I needed to hear, even when your
post wasn't directed at me.
~ Susan
3 separate comments that really twisted me up inside:
My step-daughter Jess was very materialistic, and spoiled absolutely rotten.
Whatever she wanted, she got, as long as her parents had the money for it.
I got the opportunity to show her the value of what she already had when we
had a battle of wills over her cleaning her room. I told her that if it
wasn't done by 9:00 Thursday morning, I was going to clean it myself, and I
clean with a lot of garbage bags. She didn't believe me. So when she got
home from after-school stuff that evening, her room was spotless. She was
amazed, and thanked me profusely for cleaning it for her. She was quite
happy, until she went to look for a CD, couldn't find it, and asked me where
it was. "In the garbage." Her other CD's? In the garbage. The clothes
that were piled all over the place? Garbage. Everything that wasn't put away
neatly was in the garbage.
'NEEDS' vs 'wants'. I started trying to teach my cousins the difference many
many years ago (they are 5 and 10 years my junior). I always heard them say,
"But I need a that new dress". I would say, they WANT it because all they
NEED is something that will keep them alive (water, food, you know). They
hated me at the time, but when we are together now, I don't hear the word
NEED :)
He earns 6 dollars a week keeping his room clean and helping me around the
house if he wants extra cash for something he has to do even more....like
helping dad with the yard. It's very hard for me not to spoil my children
with "things" and I could see it becoming a negative thing where they were
expecting instead of thanking so now unless it's a special
occasion...birthday or holiday...they have to pay for it themselves. For
example he's dying for a Wii.... so far no Wii <grin>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Malinda Mills
Susan wrote:
<<Has anyone else had this type of reaction? I've been on this
particular list for years but it's never quite repulsed me in this way
before. >>
That was me when I came home from the conference last year! (and it has really stuck with me to this day).
I quit the local homeschooling lists I was on - I saw many comments like the ones you posted. The manipulative and domineering attitudes just sicked me. I also cringe inwardedly whenever I'm outside, as our neighborhood - and the one before it - are solely comprised of parents who are either completely authoritarian and/or neglectful. The kids all gravitate to dh and me since we are out and involved with Tristan (ds), and their parents are no where to be seen for hours and hours. That is, except, when they poke their heads out their doors to scream at their kids. Tristan has a good friend who is constantly in trouble. This boy was grounded from all video games because one night he was ten minutes late getting a shower and fixing his school lunch for the next day. One day his mom also threw out his Nintendo DS and all games because he failed to clean his room. This boy tries so hard to stay at our house as often and as long as possible.
One comment I read recently, however, has really stuck with me. A neighbor was talking about one of her daughters. The night previously the little girl had corrected the her about something the she had said. The mom relayed her displeasure by telling my next door neighbor, "She doesn't know anything. I'M the adult. She's just a kid. They don't know anything." And this was in hearing range of the child. (it shouldn't have been said at all, but....ggrrr...) I don't know about y'all, but my son has corrected me more times than I can count, and guess what? He was absolutely right, and I was in the wrong. Why can't people see that a child's view is just as valid as their own or, heaven forbid, that they may be knowledgeable about something the parent is not? *sigh*
I am so thankful for this list and unschooling in general. It has given me such insight and has really opened my eyes to a whole new (wonderful!) world for my family, but at the same time it just breaks my heart to see how so many other families live.
Malinda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Has anyone else had this type of reaction? I've been on this
particular list for years but it's never quite repulsed me in this way
before. >>
That was me when I came home from the conference last year! (and it has really stuck with me to this day).
I quit the local homeschooling lists I was on - I saw many comments like the ones you posted. The manipulative and domineering attitudes just sicked me. I also cringe inwardedly whenever I'm outside, as our neighborhood - and the one before it - are solely comprised of parents who are either completely authoritarian and/or neglectful. The kids all gravitate to dh and me since we are out and involved with Tristan (ds), and their parents are no where to be seen for hours and hours. That is, except, when they poke their heads out their doors to scream at their kids. Tristan has a good friend who is constantly in trouble. This boy was grounded from all video games because one night he was ten minutes late getting a shower and fixing his school lunch for the next day. One day his mom also threw out his Nintendo DS and all games because he failed to clean his room. This boy tries so hard to stay at our house as often and as long as possible.
One comment I read recently, however, has really stuck with me. A neighbor was talking about one of her daughters. The night previously the little girl had corrected the her about something the she had said. The mom relayed her displeasure by telling my next door neighbor, "She doesn't know anything. I'M the adult. She's just a kid. They don't know anything." And this was in hearing range of the child. (it shouldn't have been said at all, but....ggrrr...) I don't know about y'all, but my son has corrected me more times than I can count, and guess what? He was absolutely right, and I was in the wrong. Why can't people see that a child's view is just as valid as their own or, heaven forbid, that they may be knowledgeable about something the parent is not? *sigh*
I am so thankful for this list and unschooling in general. It has given me such insight and has really opened my eyes to a whole new (wonderful!) world for my family, but at the same time it just breaks my heart to see how so many other families live.
Malinda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
Yes, this happened after we had some unschooling friends visit for a
couple days and attended a small unschooling gathering with them. The
mom had so much respect for her children, and all four of our kids got
along SO well. It was beautiful.
I am often quite amazed at what parents will say and do and truly
believe it is rational and will help the situation. Not only unkind
things but completely nonsensical. I try to remember sometimes that that
was me once(and still can be in a confused moment). I really do need to
preserve relationships with other parents for the sake of my kids.
What bother me the most are families that says they are unschooling, and
then proceed to speak about their kids in such a negative way, so
disappointed with what the kids spend their time doing (playing video
games, usually), rather than really taking the time to see what they are
doing, and angry with them for not doing things such as remembering to
pack their own lunch (I guess the parent thinks that unschooled kids are
supposed to always be responsible for their own needs and that they will
learn from going hungry? I see it as my job to make sure they have what
they need, and if they decide to do it themselves, then great, and they
will- my mom isn't making my lunches anymore, though my grandmother was
making lunch for my uncle when he was 30(he wasn't unschooled).) I
recommend Sandra and Joyce's websites often. I suppose these families
are unschooling in some way but it stops after reading and math, and
doesn't seem very fun.
I try to only say what my experience is as I don't want to seem
annoying, and as I said, these are parents of my kid's friends and I
can't afford to alienate, though I am afraid I do just by being myself
and being positive and excited about my kids, rather than grumpy and
complaining. I think they might think I just have exceptional kids and
are resentful of this. Often just keeping the subject on something else
entirely or knitting is the only way to cope.
Reading unschooling lists has become more important to me, though maybe
someday I can go to a conference and see some real faces. My daughter
doesn't enjoy traveling much, so it might have to wait until she is
happy to stay home with her Dad-(in addition to having the extra money.)
Heather
couple days and attended a small unschooling gathering with them. The
mom had so much respect for her children, and all four of our kids got
along SO well. It was beautiful.
I am often quite amazed at what parents will say and do and truly
believe it is rational and will help the situation. Not only unkind
things but completely nonsensical. I try to remember sometimes that that
was me once(and still can be in a confused moment). I really do need to
preserve relationships with other parents for the sake of my kids.
What bother me the most are families that says they are unschooling, and
then proceed to speak about their kids in such a negative way, so
disappointed with what the kids spend their time doing (playing video
games, usually), rather than really taking the time to see what they are
doing, and angry with them for not doing things such as remembering to
pack their own lunch (I guess the parent thinks that unschooled kids are
supposed to always be responsible for their own needs and that they will
learn from going hungry? I see it as my job to make sure they have what
they need, and if they decide to do it themselves, then great, and they
will- my mom isn't making my lunches anymore, though my grandmother was
making lunch for my uncle when he was 30(he wasn't unschooled).) I
recommend Sandra and Joyce's websites often. I suppose these families
are unschooling in some way but it stops after reading and math, and
doesn't seem very fun.
I try to only say what my experience is as I don't want to seem
annoying, and as I said, these are parents of my kid's friends and I
can't afford to alienate, though I am afraid I do just by being myself
and being positive and excited about my kids, rather than grumpy and
complaining. I think they might think I just have exceptional kids and
are resentful of this. Often just keeping the subject on something else
entirely or knitting is the only way to cope.
Reading unschooling lists has become more important to me, though maybe
someday I can go to a conference and see some real faces. My daughter
doesn't enjoy traveling much, so it might have to wait until she is
happy to stay home with her Dad-(in addition to having the extra money.)
Heather
>
> Susan wrote:
> <<Has anyone else had this type of reaction? I've been on this
> particular list for years but it's never quite repulsed me in this way
> before. >>
>
Wildflower Car
This happens to me all the time. I get really bent when I see moms in public
or in my neighborhood being so tough on their kids. When any kids are at my
house, they get some unschooling. It is nice to be able to see kids getting
some freedoms that don't get elsewhere.
Last night I went to a neighbors to borrow some flour and their daughter was
in trouble. The mother brought me into the conversation and humiliated her
daughter.
I asked if I could see her room. This girl is very good friends with my
daughter and I was telling her how similar our houses were built. She
happily invited me up even though her mothers face looked stressed about the
idea. Her room was a disaster. I noticed a trophy on the floor and asked her
about it. We discussed a beautiful pillow had Aunt made for her. We talked
for a good 15 minutes sitting in the mess. We just plopped down on her
mattress and I listened mostly.
As I was leaving her mom walked me out and thanked me for talking to her
daughter because she seemed so much more calm now. I don't know what she
think we talked about, I didn't even mention the issue they were fighting
about and acted like her room was immaculate. This girl just needed some
love.
Wildflower
_________________________________________________________________
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or in my neighborhood being so tough on their kids. When any kids are at my
house, they get some unschooling. It is nice to be able to see kids getting
some freedoms that don't get elsewhere.
Last night I went to a neighbors to borrow some flour and their daughter was
in trouble. The mother brought me into the conversation and humiliated her
daughter.
I asked if I could see her room. This girl is very good friends with my
daughter and I was telling her how similar our houses were built. She
happily invited me up even though her mothers face looked stressed about the
idea. Her room was a disaster. I noticed a trophy on the floor and asked her
about it. We discussed a beautiful pillow had Aunt made for her. We talked
for a good 15 minutes sitting in the mess. We just plopped down on her
mattress and I listened mostly.
As I was leaving her mom walked me out and thanked me for talking to her
daughter because she seemed so much more calm now. I don't know what she
think we talked about, I didn't even mention the issue they were fighting
about and acted like her room was immaculate. This girl just needed some
love.
Wildflower
_________________________________________________________________
Gear up for Halo� 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer.
http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_MSNHMTxt_1
Robert Saxon
I think a lot of us have had these experiences, and for me, they get more
and more grating the further we get into unschooling. And my belief in
unschooling is nudging me to somehow engage these people. This is tough for
me, having a very hands-off, live-by-example style of proselytizing for ANY
form of religion, politics or parenting style, no matter how fervently
believed in. Soooo, answering some sticky questions becomes necessary.
Under what circumstances make it OK to "engage" someone?
Once engaged, HOW should it be gone about?
Obviously context and situation heavily influence these answers. Obviously,
whatever happens should be done with love and respect. But that doesn't
give me any how-tos, no examples, etc. NVC (Non-Violent Communication, by
Marshall Rosenberg) has worked for me when I've found myself in a conflict
with someone else, but I don't remember if it actually has ideas/examples
about initiating, especially when it doesn't directly involve me. Insertion
is what would be trickiest.
Just some of my own thoughts.
--Rob
"Hubby!" to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5+ years) and Elissa (4+ years)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and more grating the further we get into unschooling. And my belief in
unschooling is nudging me to somehow engage these people. This is tough for
me, having a very hands-off, live-by-example style of proselytizing for ANY
form of religion, politics or parenting style, no matter how fervently
believed in. Soooo, answering some sticky questions becomes necessary.
Under what circumstances make it OK to "engage" someone?
Once engaged, HOW should it be gone about?
Obviously context and situation heavily influence these answers. Obviously,
whatever happens should be done with love and respect. But that doesn't
give me any how-tos, no examples, etc. NVC (Non-Violent Communication, by
Marshall Rosenberg) has worked for me when I've found myself in a conflict
with someone else, but I don't remember if it actually has ideas/examples
about initiating, especially when it doesn't directly involve me. Insertion
is what would be trickiest.
Just some of my own thoughts.
--Rob
"Hubby!" to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5+ years) and Elissa (4+ years)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan
> I think a lot of us have had these experiences, and for me, they get moreYes, I am feeling this, too. I wanted to write back and post my own response
> and more grating the further we get into unschooling. And my belief in
> unschooling is nudging me to somehow engage these people. This is tough
> for
> me, having a very hands-off, live-by-example style of proselytizing for
> ANY
> form of religion, politics or parenting style, no matter how fervently
> believed in.
>
to that thread but I got muddled down in trying to figure out how to do it
in a way that wouldn't immediately offend the posters of those comments. I
know if they went on the offensive they wouldn't really read what I wrote,
it would just be dismissed. RU lists are much more direct and that's part of
what I love about them and part of what helps me "get it" but it's a
departure from how most lists run. The approach used here would be written
off as "rude" or "attacking" on traditional lists. If I wrote what I really
wanted to I know lots of people would just jump to defend the original
posters POV and my comments would get buried and the whole thing would be
pointless. So I ended up talking myself out of it.
Dayna Martin gave a presentation at L&L about advocating for unschooling. I
couldn't make it to her talk but I plan to download it from the website
later. Not sure what all it encompassed, but maybe she had some ideas for
those of us who want to speak up but aren't sure how to do it effectively.
A year or so ago I was at a playground with the kids and had brought along
my dog-eared copy of Unconditional Parenting. A couple nearby was watching
their son playing with my son and we struck up a conversation. They asked if
I'd ever read "The Strong Willed Child" by James Dobson. I said I had not,
but the name sounded familiar to me. They gave a glowing review of the book,
saying it really helped them "break" their son's will and that the spankings
and other "discipline" tactics recommended in the book had made him
obedient. I think their son was 3 1/2.
I remember standing there, shocked, looking down at my very different sort
of book, which admittedly wasn't perfect and didn't contain all the answers
but had served as a stepping stone on my path to RU, and kind of panicking
inside, thinking I really wanted to say something to these people but I
didn't even know where to begin. Part of me was furious at this James Dobson
person for writing such crappy advice and touting it to desperate parents,
part of me was angry at this couple for not thinking about what they were
doing or being able to see how awful it was, and part of me was feeling
extremely sad for their son.
Before they left I managed to croak out, "We steer away from philosophies
that advocate spanking" which seemed to surprise them a bit but wasn't
really earth-shaking and not a tenth of what I really wanted to say. When I
got home I looked up the James Dobson book and found a page about it at
stoptherod.com - and it was every bit as horrible as I'd feared. I really,
really wish I'd handed them my well-worn book and said, "Here's something
that's worked for us, it's a different approach but I think it helps create
happier families." I've thought about that encounter a lot and had
conversations in my head about what I could have said. I guess it's good
practice for my next face-to-face.
~ Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
The key for me is to respond to ANYone -- be it face-to-face, on some
mailing lists, or however -- with respect. This means believing that these
people really are doing what they think is best, no matter how backward and
damaging it seems to me. They really do care. They just have very poor
tools and/or a really wacked-out POV. In other words, they're not really
Evil. (In different terms, it would be separating the sin from the
sinner.) Once I can get to this point, my blood pressure drops just enough
so I can think better.
So far, the rules I've played by are, "If they bring it up, it's fair game,"
and "When in the game, play gently." (I'm interested in getting more people
to play, more often.) These rules work when already discussing something in
a friendly conversation. People seem reluctant to allow a pleasant
situation to deteriorate.
Discussing parenting styles has actually come up a few times with other
parents, and there's only been one testy little exchange, but nothing out of
hand. Usually, someone will say something, expecting that I agree with
them. I do not have (much of) a problem gently disavowing them of that
notion, while at the same time letting them know that I'm open to
discussion.
Modulating back the judgment, shock or other strong emotions can be
difficult, but so far it's the only way I've found to facilitate
communication. And self-righteousness shuts down communication faster than
a squirrel on coffee.
A huge portion of my reticence to initiate conversation is this: just the
audacity and arrogance to believe that I would know better than someone
else, or would presume to know at a glance how to solve long-standing
problems gives me pause. I'm not all-knowing. I'm just a human being.
What right, what authority do I have to tell someone that they could be
doing it so much better? Nevertheless, I'm still getting prodded to
engage.
Now, having said all that, I then feel like a hypocrite for being Mr. Calm
when I see a parents yelling and berating their children. The guilt trip,
the Big Voice, the threats. The "I clean with a garbage sack." Should I be
calm in the face of this? Should I engage quietly yet respectfully? Or
should I call them out, possibly risking them running further away from what
I'm trying to tell them?
So, is the seminar on advocacy on the L&L website? I'll go trawling for it
this evening. I'm very interested in anything that might help me move
beyond passive advocacy.
--Rob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mailing lists, or however -- with respect. This means believing that these
people really are doing what they think is best, no matter how backward and
damaging it seems to me. They really do care. They just have very poor
tools and/or a really wacked-out POV. In other words, they're not really
Evil. (In different terms, it would be separating the sin from the
sinner.) Once I can get to this point, my blood pressure drops just enough
so I can think better.
So far, the rules I've played by are, "If they bring it up, it's fair game,"
and "When in the game, play gently." (I'm interested in getting more people
to play, more often.) These rules work when already discussing something in
a friendly conversation. People seem reluctant to allow a pleasant
situation to deteriorate.
Discussing parenting styles has actually come up a few times with other
parents, and there's only been one testy little exchange, but nothing out of
hand. Usually, someone will say something, expecting that I agree with
them. I do not have (much of) a problem gently disavowing them of that
notion, while at the same time letting them know that I'm open to
discussion.
Modulating back the judgment, shock or other strong emotions can be
difficult, but so far it's the only way I've found to facilitate
communication. And self-righteousness shuts down communication faster than
a squirrel on coffee.
A huge portion of my reticence to initiate conversation is this: just the
audacity and arrogance to believe that I would know better than someone
else, or would presume to know at a glance how to solve long-standing
problems gives me pause. I'm not all-knowing. I'm just a human being.
What right, what authority do I have to tell someone that they could be
doing it so much better? Nevertheless, I'm still getting prodded to
engage.
Now, having said all that, I then feel like a hypocrite for being Mr. Calm
when I see a parents yelling and berating their children. The guilt trip,
the Big Voice, the threats. The "I clean with a garbage sack." Should I be
calm in the face of this? Should I engage quietly yet respectfully? Or
should I call them out, possibly risking them running further away from what
I'm trying to tell them?
So, is the seminar on advocacy on the L&L website? I'll go trawling for it
this evening. I'm very interested in anything that might help me move
beyond passive advocacy.
--Rob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carenkh
I sat in on Dayna's talk, and came away so deeply moved and impressed.
While it was about advocacy, what struck me most strongly was Dayna's
belief that to be an advocate for unschooling, she needed to BE
unschooling while out in public, etc. She talked about remaining calm
and centered and respectful - even when faced with Dr. Phil! I'm
planning on downloading it, too, even though I was there - there was a
LOT in that talk.
This is one of the only national unschooling lists I'm on - I felt
like since it's "basics", it wouldn't get nasty and judgmental like so
many of the other lists do. It's hard to believe that anyone so quick
to condemn is actually living an unschooling life. (of course, I can
hear *my own* judgment in this statement!) Dayna captured that
sentiment very well.
peace,
Caren
in Charlotte, NC
While it was about advocacy, what struck me most strongly was Dayna's
belief that to be an advocate for unschooling, she needed to BE
unschooling while out in public, etc. She talked about remaining calm
and centered and respectful - even when faced with Dr. Phil! I'm
planning on downloading it, too, even though I was there - there was a
LOT in that talk.
This is one of the only national unschooling lists I'm on - I felt
like since it's "basics", it wouldn't get nasty and judgmental like so
many of the other lists do. It's hard to believe that anyone so quick
to condemn is actually living an unschooling life. (of course, I can
hear *my own* judgment in this statement!) Dayna captured that
sentiment very well.
peace,
Caren
in Charlotte, NC
Robert Saxon
I'm having problems finding where to download it. Help?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Dayna Martin gave a presentation at L&L about advocating for unschooling.I
> couldn't make it to her talk but I plan to download it from the website--Rob
> later.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan
> > Dayna Martin gave a presentation at L&L about advocating for unschooling.I'd say it isn't available yet because the conference just ended and
> > I couldn't make it to her talk but I plan to download it from the website
> > later.
> I'm having problems finding where to download it. Help?
some of the folks in charge of creating the digital media & placing it
on the website probably aren't even back home yet. I'd give it at
least a week or two (if not longer, I really don't know to be honest).
When it's available you'll be able to purchase it from the Live &
Learn site. Last year's talks are available though - I think, last
time I checked anyways!
Hope that helps,
~ Susan
hbmccarty
carenkh wrote:
and ask, which they do- my kids are remarked upon as being unusually
involved and respectful often, and that is an opportunity to elaborate
on how that came to be. However, people can see that my kids are
"turning out", and they can see that I am not forcing them to do these
things or behave in anyway, but they still can't make the connection
between how they are treated and how they are. They think they are just
the kinds of kids who just happen to do well with unschooling, while
their own kids are different and need to be told what to do, or they
would do "nothing" all day and misbehave. I guess I don't mind that
people just insist that my kids are great, because I happen to agree,
but it is a little frustrating when I can't make it clear that all kids
could be like that- enthusiastic and committed to what they are doing
and respectful.
I have actually started to think that in my particular area, it might be
a bad thing for my kids for me to be an advocate for unschooling, as it
sets them aside as different from families and kids they would like to
fit in with. The schooled people we know know very little of what we do,
and around school at home families I, at this point, almost (but not
quite) wish that I had kept our lifestyle more quiet. I fear that it may
make some parents wary of letting their kids be close to ours. The no
limits on "screens" is, I think, a hard one for many to stomach.
I often tell stories of how for example, my kids learned to read on
their own, when the subject of reading comes up. I tell people who ask
about all the interesting things my kids do, or about how our
relationship has improved since I read this book, or read that website,
whatever(this is a simplification, of course, as it is not one thing.)
Sometimes I think parents would prefer someone to complain with though,
rather than hear how it is better or easier in my family or could be
better in theirs. It is easier to make it the kids fault than to take
responsibility for how things aren't so good in your family and make a
change.
However, the relationship is what is always important, rather than me
proving I am right. If people see I am a kind and reasonable person
first, then discover other things about our family as it comes out
through conversation, then that works better.
Heather
>This makes sense to me- just to be how you are and that people will see
> I sat in on Dayna's talk, and came away so deeply moved and impressed.
> While it was about advocacy, what struck me most strongly was Dayna's
> belief that to be an advocate for unschooling, she needed to BE
> unschooling while out in public, etc.
>
and ask, which they do- my kids are remarked upon as being unusually
involved and respectful often, and that is an opportunity to elaborate
on how that came to be. However, people can see that my kids are
"turning out", and they can see that I am not forcing them to do these
things or behave in anyway, but they still can't make the connection
between how they are treated and how they are. They think they are just
the kinds of kids who just happen to do well with unschooling, while
their own kids are different and need to be told what to do, or they
would do "nothing" all day and misbehave. I guess I don't mind that
people just insist that my kids are great, because I happen to agree,
but it is a little frustrating when I can't make it clear that all kids
could be like that- enthusiastic and committed to what they are doing
and respectful.
I have actually started to think that in my particular area, it might be
a bad thing for my kids for me to be an advocate for unschooling, as it
sets them aside as different from families and kids they would like to
fit in with. The schooled people we know know very little of what we do,
and around school at home families I, at this point, almost (but not
quite) wish that I had kept our lifestyle more quiet. I fear that it may
make some parents wary of letting their kids be close to ours. The no
limits on "screens" is, I think, a hard one for many to stomach.
I often tell stories of how for example, my kids learned to read on
their own, when the subject of reading comes up. I tell people who ask
about all the interesting things my kids do, or about how our
relationship has improved since I read this book, or read that website,
whatever(this is a simplification, of course, as it is not one thing.)
Sometimes I think parents would prefer someone to complain with though,
rather than hear how it is better or easier in my family or could be
better in theirs. It is easier to make it the kids fault than to take
responsibility for how things aren't so good in your family and make a
change.
However, the relationship is what is always important, rather than me
proving I am right. If people see I am a kind and reasonable person
first, then discover other things about our family as it comes out
through conversation, then that works better.
Heather
beanmommy2
I feel like I run into Insanity so often that I've started just
expecting it. I often feel like a tourist in a foreign country, and
in that sense, I usually find it amusing and fascinating.
But when it's meanness to their kids, it just makes me very sad.
One of many many examples: I was at Breakfast with Santa last
December with my three children. A lady I didn't know, sitting by me,
was nice enough to hold my baby while I got myself and the other two
kids fed. She was very nice and pleasant. I asked her about her
children, and she introduced me to one child. Then she said her two
year old had to stay home because she was being difficult, or
disobedient, or something, at bedtime the night before.
It made me feel kind of sad and sick.
I could go on and on with stories like that. I guess we all could.
Anyway, my reaction varies. This particular woman seemed quite
pleased and confident with her decsion, she was a total stranger, and
she was helping me out, so I didn't address it.
What works best for me is to take opportunities to tap into
frustrations that are already there. For example, someone was telling
me about putting their kids in Time Out. I said, "Oh, does that
help?" She immediately said, "No."
Or I might say, "Oh, I've found that what helps when my child acts
like that is to ____." That's is the person seems frustrated. If they
seem confident in what they're doing, I'm more likely to either
ignore it or ask sort of innocent questions.
As far as on-line homeschool (and not unschool) groups, I don't think
I have any use for them. I visted one recently that I thought might
be appropriate for me. One post said that when their child won't be
their "schoolwork," they will make them scrub all the toilets, saying
to them, "If you don't do your math, when you're an adult you'll be
scrubbing other people's toilets." Others replied that that was
clever and great!
I see no reason for me to be there. Discussions like that won't help
me, and I'm doubt I would help them.
Jenny
expecting it. I often feel like a tourist in a foreign country, and
in that sense, I usually find it amusing and fascinating.
But when it's meanness to their kids, it just makes me very sad.
One of many many examples: I was at Breakfast with Santa last
December with my three children. A lady I didn't know, sitting by me,
was nice enough to hold my baby while I got myself and the other two
kids fed. She was very nice and pleasant. I asked her about her
children, and she introduced me to one child. Then she said her two
year old had to stay home because she was being difficult, or
disobedient, or something, at bedtime the night before.
It made me feel kind of sad and sick.
I could go on and on with stories like that. I guess we all could.
Anyway, my reaction varies. This particular woman seemed quite
pleased and confident with her decsion, she was a total stranger, and
she was helping me out, so I didn't address it.
What works best for me is to take opportunities to tap into
frustrations that are already there. For example, someone was telling
me about putting their kids in Time Out. I said, "Oh, does that
help?" She immediately said, "No."
Or I might say, "Oh, I've found that what helps when my child acts
like that is to ____." That's is the person seems frustrated. If they
seem confident in what they're doing, I'm more likely to either
ignore it or ask sort of innocent questions.
As far as on-line homeschool (and not unschool) groups, I don't think
I have any use for them. I visted one recently that I thought might
be appropriate for me. One post said that when their child won't be
their "schoolwork," they will make them scrub all the toilets, saying
to them, "If you don't do your math, when you're an adult you'll be
scrubbing other people's toilets." Others replied that that was
clever and great!
I see no reason for me to be there. Discussions like that won't help
me, and I'm doubt I would help them.
Jenny
Joni
> So, is the seminar on advocacy on the L&L website?I believe the round table chats/discussions were not recorded,
although there was a mic being passed around at Dayna's chat, so you
may end up being in luck. However, it may take the volunteers a while
to get home and settled before taking on the task of uploading the MP3s.