Going back to School
Jen
The 'Public School' thread really hits home with me. This is probably
completely OT of unschooling, but I know you will have some good advice
for me.
My son, Thomas (10) has decided to return to school this fall. We've
been homeschooling for nearly 2 years. We started out doing 'school at
home' but that changed to unschooling as Thomas refused to do any
school work. Eventually, we worked our way to days spent on hs
outings, reading, Lego building, experiments, cooking, watching
historical documentaries, playing Game Cube, playing with Pokemon
cards. All great stuff, but in his mind, not educational and a
complete waste of time, since now he's 'behind' in math and writing.
Back in mid-June he announced he was going back. He was confident and
sure of himself. He had mentioned going back a few months earlier, but
was always crying and unsure. Now that school is a week away, he's
angry, aggressive, unhappy - all the behaviours that mean he's feeling
unsure, worried, etc. I understand the feelings and dh and I have told
him that it's ok/normal to be unsure, worried and all.
But, how do I help him see the value of our unschooled lifestyle? That
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?
He's made it 100% clear that he doesn't want me to be his teacher.
What do I do if he comes home and he wants to do academics (or thinks
he needs to) but not with me. Do I find a tutor, sign him up at Kumon,
try private school? This kid is a thinker. He wants to be doing
something. How do I make him realize that everything he does is
worthwhile, and even if it isn't taught in a school, it still has
meaning and value.
Confused and wanting to do the best for him. He is so torn up about
this. It is painful to see.
Thanks,
Jen
completely OT of unschooling, but I know you will have some good advice
for me.
My son, Thomas (10) has decided to return to school this fall. We've
been homeschooling for nearly 2 years. We started out doing 'school at
home' but that changed to unschooling as Thomas refused to do any
school work. Eventually, we worked our way to days spent on hs
outings, reading, Lego building, experiments, cooking, watching
historical documentaries, playing Game Cube, playing with Pokemon
cards. All great stuff, but in his mind, not educational and a
complete waste of time, since now he's 'behind' in math and writing.
Back in mid-June he announced he was going back. He was confident and
sure of himself. He had mentioned going back a few months earlier, but
was always crying and unsure. Now that school is a week away, he's
angry, aggressive, unhappy - all the behaviours that mean he's feeling
unsure, worried, etc. I understand the feelings and dh and I have told
him that it's ok/normal to be unsure, worried and all.
But, how do I help him see the value of our unschooled lifestyle? That
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?
He's made it 100% clear that he doesn't want me to be his teacher.
What do I do if he comes home and he wants to do academics (or thinks
he needs to) but not with me. Do I find a tutor, sign him up at Kumon,
try private school? This kid is a thinker. He wants to be doing
something. How do I make him realize that everything he does is
worthwhile, and even if it isn't taught in a school, it still has
meaning and value.
Confused and wanting to do the best for him. He is so torn up about
this. It is painful to see.
Thanks,
Jen
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Jen" <jen_d_anderson@...>
wrote:
adults are scared that without school telling you you are learning
then you must not be- my son has been doing this and he is 14 but
his schooled friends and family and he is concerned he is missing
something.
your son is 10 and a thinker- will he read about other unschooled
kids do you hang out with any unschoolers or can you find a group in
your area?
Maybe each time you realize he learned something you say "hey thats
not learning is it?" or maybe get a hold of a grade level test and
give it to him or a check list of what his grade should know. Let
him test himself or look through a book- will the school let you
borrow one.
Maybe there is a math class he can take through community ed or a
friend or neighborhood high schooler that could give him lessons in
what ever subject he wants to learn.
unschooling is not about NEVER taking a class but taking a class for
the right reasons- learning- or entertainment. Maybe a video from
the library could help teach.
Maybe trying out school and seeing what it is like will help him see
the value of unschooling
JulieH
wrote:
>We've
>
> My son, Thomas (10) has decided to return to school this fall.
> been homeschooling for nearly 2 years. We started outdoing 'school at
> home' but that changed to unschooling as Thomas refused to do anywriting.
> school work. Eventually, we worked our way to days spent on hs
> outings, reading, Lego building, experiments, cooking, watching
> historical documentaries, playing Game Cube, playing with Pokemon
> cards. All great stuff, but in his mind, not educational and a
> complete waste of time, since now he's 'behind' in math and
>and
> Back in mid-June he announced he was going back. He was confident
> sure of himself. He had mentioned going back a few monthsearlier, but
> was always crying and unsure. Now that school is a week away,he's
> angry, aggressive, unhappy - all the behaviours that mean he'sfeeling
> unsure, worried, etc. I understand the feelings and dh and I havetold
> him that it's ok/normal to be unsure, worried and all.That
>
> But, how do I help him see the value of our unschooled lifestyle?
> schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that hewill
> get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?teacher.
>
> He's made it 100% clear that he doesn't want me to be his
> What do I do if he comes home and he wants to do academics (orthinks
> he needs to) but not with me. Do I find a tutor, sign him up atKumon,
> try private school? This kid is a thinker. He wants to be doingabout
> something. How do I make him realize that everything he does is
> worthwhile, and even if it isn't taught in a school, it still has
> meaning and value.
>
> Confused and wanting to do the best for him. He is so torn up
> this. It is painful to see.Maybe the problem is why he wants to attend school- most kids nad
>
> Thanks,
> Jen
>
adults are scared that without school telling you you are learning
then you must not be- my son has been doing this and he is 14 but
his schooled friends and family and he is concerned he is missing
something.
your son is 10 and a thinker- will he read about other unschooled
kids do you hang out with any unschoolers or can you find a group in
your area?
Maybe each time you realize he learned something you say "hey thats
not learning is it?" or maybe get a hold of a grade level test and
give it to him or a check list of what his grade should know. Let
him test himself or look through a book- will the school let you
borrow one.
Maybe there is a math class he can take through community ed or a
friend or neighborhood high schooler that could give him lessons in
what ever subject he wants to learn.
unschooling is not about NEVER taking a class but taking a class for
the right reasons- learning- or entertainment. Maybe a video from
the library could help teach.
Maybe trying out school and seeing what it is like will help him see
the value of unschooling
JulieH
Ren Allen
~~But, how do I help him see the value of our unschooled lifestyle? That
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?~~
Get him to an unschooling conference!!
I really believe that building a support group of unschoolers is
important. Do you have some folks in your area you could get together
with? Where are you and maybe some people here will know how to find
some local unschoolers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?~~
Get him to an unschooling conference!!
I really believe that building a support group of unschoolers is
important. Do you have some folks in your area you could get together
with? Where are you and maybe some people here will know how to find
some local unschoolers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Deb Lewis
***or maybe get a hold of a grade level test and
give it to him or a check list of what his grade should know.***
Using school methods to evaluate learning will not help him
understand learning is natural.
***Maybe there is a math class he can take through community ed or a
friend or neighborhood high schooler that could give him lessons in
what ever subject he wants to learn.***
The problem is he still believes the way people learn is through
lessons and school and study. Encouraging lessons and tests and
other schoolish methods is not the answer.
***unschooling is not about NEVER taking a class but taking a class
for
the right reasons- learning- or entertainment. Maybe a video from
the library could help teach.***
This case is not "the right reason" for classes. The posters son
believes learning only happens from teaching and study. More
teaching and study won't help them unschool.
Maybe the mom could plan a lot of excursions and adventures away from
home, hiking, camping, swimming, going to the park to play Frisbee,
going to museums, movies, dinner theater, concerts, bike rides,
etc. Fill up his life with new things and new experiences. Give
him lots to do and to think about. Talk to him about news and world
events. Read interesting articles or snippets of articles to him.
Be on the lookout for things he likes and share them with him. And
when the topic of school comes up, talk about the mistakes schools
make in not understanding that learning is natural. Talk about why
and how people really learn. Talk about how he (the posters son)
learned to walk and talk and how that kind of natural learning is
life long . Tell him that sometimes we can't identify what we've
learned but every experience builds on our model of the world and
helps us connect thoughts and ideas. Tell him learning is happening
every minute, even when we can't see or define it. Find ways to help
him trust himself. Don't reinforce his belief that he needs school
methods in order to learn.
Deb Lewis
give it to him or a check list of what his grade should know.***
Using school methods to evaluate learning will not help him
understand learning is natural.
***Maybe there is a math class he can take through community ed or a
friend or neighborhood high schooler that could give him lessons in
what ever subject he wants to learn.***
The problem is he still believes the way people learn is through
lessons and school and study. Encouraging lessons and tests and
other schoolish methods is not the answer.
***unschooling is not about NEVER taking a class but taking a class
for
the right reasons- learning- or entertainment. Maybe a video from
the library could help teach.***
This case is not "the right reason" for classes. The posters son
believes learning only happens from teaching and study. More
teaching and study won't help them unschool.
Maybe the mom could plan a lot of excursions and adventures away from
home, hiking, camping, swimming, going to the park to play Frisbee,
going to museums, movies, dinner theater, concerts, bike rides,
etc. Fill up his life with new things and new experiences. Give
him lots to do and to think about. Talk to him about news and world
events. Read interesting articles or snippets of articles to him.
Be on the lookout for things he likes and share them with him. And
when the topic of school comes up, talk about the mistakes schools
make in not understanding that learning is natural. Talk about why
and how people really learn. Talk about how he (the posters son)
learned to walk and talk and how that kind of natural learning is
life long . Tell him that sometimes we can't identify what we've
learned but every experience builds on our model of the world and
helps us connect thoughts and ideas. Tell him learning is happening
every minute, even when we can't see or define it. Find ways to help
him trust himself. Don't reinforce his belief that he needs school
methods in order to learn.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***But, how do I help him see the value of our unschooled lifestyle?
That
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?***
Not only are schools not the only place learning happens they are
among the least likely places for learning to happen.
Tell him that and tell him why. Tell him learning happens when
people have the freedom to pursue what they're interested in for as
long (or as short a time) as they want.
Can you tell him that he doesn't have to start school at the
beginning of the year, that he could join any time? Ask him to wait
because you had so many things you wanted to do together and school
would get in the way. Then, get busy finding things to do and
places to go to make his life at home with you so busy and fun he
doesn't have time to think about school.
If he still wants to start school make sure he knows he can come home
any time.
***This kid is a thinker. He wants to be doing
something. How do I make him realize that everything he does is
worthwhile, and even if it isn't taught in a school, it still has
meaning and value.***
Go to a shooting range, an archery range, learn to play darts,
billiards, pinball, invite people over for games and movies, have
dinner out, go to a climbing wall, float down a river, paddle around
a lake in a rented canoe, paint his room like an Egyptian tomb (or
whatever he likes) go hunting for crystals and panning for gold.
Build a teepee, a sail boat a telescope a tree house.
Tell us what he likes to do and we'll see if we can come up with
things to offer. Make life at home more interesting than school.
Fill him up at home so that he doesn't feel the need to look to
school to fill him up.
Deb Lewis
That
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?***
Not only are schools not the only place learning happens they are
among the least likely places for learning to happen.
Tell him that and tell him why. Tell him learning happens when
people have the freedom to pursue what they're interested in for as
long (or as short a time) as they want.
Can you tell him that he doesn't have to start school at the
beginning of the year, that he could join any time? Ask him to wait
because you had so many things you wanted to do together and school
would get in the way. Then, get busy finding things to do and
places to go to make his life at home with you so busy and fun he
doesn't have time to think about school.
If he still wants to start school make sure he knows he can come home
any time.
***This kid is a thinker. He wants to be doing
something. How do I make him realize that everything he does is
worthwhile, and even if it isn't taught in a school, it still has
meaning and value.***
Go to a shooting range, an archery range, learn to play darts,
billiards, pinball, invite people over for games and movies, have
dinner out, go to a climbing wall, float down a river, paddle around
a lake in a rented canoe, paint his room like an Egyptian tomb (or
whatever he likes) go hunting for crystals and panning for gold.
Build a teepee, a sail boat a telescope a tree house.
Tell us what he likes to do and we'll see if we can come up with
things to offer. Make life at home more interesting than school.
Fill him up at home so that he doesn't feel the need to look to
school to fill him up.
Deb Lewis
Jen Anderson
Julie,
Thanks for your response.
There are hsing classes at the local Community College that I think he would find a lot more interesting than school, but he's not interested.
We do hang out with a group of hsers - some unschoolers, some school-at-home types. He has even met some older teens who have been unschooled for many years. But he doesn't internalize it. He thinks there is something different about them, something special, something he doesn't have that makes them cool and successful. He's unable to expand on that.
I really don't think that classes are the answer, but if he asks for them, we'll take a look.
Jen
wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
Maybe the problem is why he wants to attend school- most kids nad
adults are scared that without school telling you you are learning
then you must not be- my son has been doing this and he is 14 but
his schooled friends and family and he is concerned he is missing
something.
your son is 10 and a thinker- will he read about other unschooled
kids do you hang out with any unschoolers or can you find a group in
your area?
Maybe each time you realize he learned something you say "hey thats
not learning is it?" or maybe get a hold of a grade level test and
give it to him or a check list of what his grade should know. Let
him test himself or look through a book- will the school let you
borrow one.
Maybe there is a math class he can take through community ed or a
friend or neighborhood high schooler that could give him lessons in
what ever subject he wants to learn.
unschooling is not about NEVER taking a class but taking a class for
the right reasons- learning- or entertainment. Maybe a video from
the library could help teach.
Maybe trying out school and seeing what it is like will help him see
the value of unschooling
JulieH
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for your response.
There are hsing classes at the local Community College that I think he would find a lot more interesting than school, but he's not interested.
We do hang out with a group of hsers - some unschoolers, some school-at-home types. He has even met some older teens who have been unschooled for many years. But he doesn't internalize it. He thinks there is something different about them, something special, something he doesn't have that makes them cool and successful. He's unable to expand on that.
I really don't think that classes are the answer, but if he asks for them, we'll take a look.
Jen
wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...> wrote:
Maybe the problem is why he wants to attend school- most kids nad
adults are scared that without school telling you you are learning
then you must not be- my son has been doing this and he is 14 but
his schooled friends and family and he is concerned he is missing
something.
your son is 10 and a thinker- will he read about other unschooled
kids do you hang out with any unschoolers or can you find a group in
your area?
Maybe each time you realize he learned something you say "hey thats
not learning is it?" or maybe get a hold of a grade level test and
give it to him or a check list of what his grade should know. Let
him test himself or look through a book- will the school let you
borrow one.
Maybe there is a math class he can take through community ed or a
friend or neighborhood high schooler that could give him lessons in
what ever subject he wants to learn.
unschooling is not about NEVER taking a class but taking a class for
the right reasons- learning- or entertainment. Maybe a video from
the library could help teach.
Maybe trying out school and seeing what it is like will help him see
the value of unschooling
JulieH
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jen Anderson
Ren,
We live near Baltimore, MD and within driving distance of the Live and Learn conference. Unfortunately, we've got other commitments that weekend so we can't make it down there. I was hoping to get up to Toronto last May, but sick kids and a travelling hubby made that impossible. We will get to an unschooling conference someday!
It was great to meet some unschoolers at a local hsing event and Thomas did enjoy spending time with a few of the older boys. Later, when talking to him about them, he seems to think they have special something that makes them successful. Something he doesn't have, something he's missing.
We've met some great unschoolers and continue to see them at various outings, but no one lives near enough to be 'best buds' with. No one he can bounce ideas off. Most of his hs friends are school-at-home types or attend various co-op classes.
Jen
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~But, how do I help him see the value of our unschooled lifestyle? That
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?~~
Get him to an unschooling conference!!
I really believe that building a support group of unschoolers is
important. Do you have some folks in your area you could get together
with? Where are you and maybe some people here will know how to find
some local unschoolers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We live near Baltimore, MD and within driving distance of the Live and Learn conference. Unfortunately, we've got other commitments that weekend so we can't make it down there. I was hoping to get up to Toronto last May, but sick kids and a travelling hubby made that impossible. We will get to an unschooling conference someday!
It was great to meet some unschoolers at a local hsing event and Thomas did enjoy spending time with a few of the older boys. Later, when talking to him about them, he seems to think they have special something that makes them successful. Something he doesn't have, something he's missing.
We've met some great unschoolers and continue to see them at various outings, but no one lives near enough to be 'best buds' with. No one he can bounce ideas off. Most of his hs friends are school-at-home types or attend various co-op classes.
Jen
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~But, how do I help him see the value of our unschooled lifestyle? That
schools are not the only place learning of value happens, that he will
get that 'school stuff' when he needs or wants it?~~
Get him to an unschooling conference!!
I really believe that building a support group of unschoolers is
important. Do you have some folks in your area you could get together
with? Where are you and maybe some people here will know how to find
some local unschoolers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jen Anderson
Deb,
I couldn't agree with you more. He doesn't need any classes, he needs to unschool more fully. He needs to realize that learning doesn't mean the painful lessons from school. He needs to realize that everything he does has meaning, to trust that he is fine.
But how do I help him to learn to trust himself? I can talk to him until I'm blue in the face and what he's doing is learning, but until he internalizes it, he still thinks of his days as wasted. He also hates when I point out that something is 'educational' or that he 'learned something from it'. He tells me that I ruin all his fun by pointing those things out. I don't do it in a "Ha ha, you just learned xyz by watching that show/playing Pokemon!" kind of way. I do it off-handedly, just casually, usually when we are chatting at bedtime.
And, if he really wants to go to school, should I allow him? We've looked into a private school that is much more open and relaxed. It opens the week after ps so he has time to experience ps and check out the private one. I would prefer him to stay home, but in all honesty, it's easier at home with the younger 2 without him here. That's awful to say, and it hurts to admit it, but he is sooo difficult at home right now (and has been in the past). I'm certainly not giving up on him and I want him home, his brother and sister want him home, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to time with the other 2 without him raining on our parade or interrupting. Please don't think we don't include him, we always ask him to join, always leave it open for him to join, but his response is usually "That's stupid!" or some such comment and he messes up what we're doing or demands my attention.
Gosh, it sounds like Thomas is a monster - he not! He's sweet, kind and caring when all is settled in his mind. But at times of uncertainty, he's rude, disrepectful, angry and destructive. He has made huge leaps in dealing with his feelings more appropriately, but not all the time.
Thanks,
Jen
Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:
This case is not "the right reason" for classes. The posters son
believes learning only happens from teaching and study. More
teaching and study won't help them unschool.
Maybe the mom could plan a lot of excursions and adventures away from
home, hiking, camping, swimming, going to the park to play Frisbee,
going to museums, movies, dinner theater, concerts, bike rides,
etc. Fill up his life with new things and new experiences. Give
him lots to do and to think about. Talk to him about news and world
events. Read interesting articles or snippets of articles to him.
Be on the lookout for things he likes and share them with him. And
when the topic of school comes up, talk about the mistakes schools
make in not understanding that learning is natural. Talk about why
and how people really learn. Talk about how he (the posters son)
learned to walk and talk and how that kind of natural learning is
life long . Tell him that sometimes we can't identify what we've
learned but every experience builds on our model of the world and
helps us connect thoughts and ideas. Tell him learning is happening
every minute, even when we can't see or define it. Find ways to help
him trust himself. Don't reinforce his belief that he needs school
methods in order to learn.
Deb Lewis
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I couldn't agree with you more. He doesn't need any classes, he needs to unschool more fully. He needs to realize that learning doesn't mean the painful lessons from school. He needs to realize that everything he does has meaning, to trust that he is fine.
But how do I help him to learn to trust himself? I can talk to him until I'm blue in the face and what he's doing is learning, but until he internalizes it, he still thinks of his days as wasted. He also hates when I point out that something is 'educational' or that he 'learned something from it'. He tells me that I ruin all his fun by pointing those things out. I don't do it in a "Ha ha, you just learned xyz by watching that show/playing Pokemon!" kind of way. I do it off-handedly, just casually, usually when we are chatting at bedtime.
And, if he really wants to go to school, should I allow him? We've looked into a private school that is much more open and relaxed. It opens the week after ps so he has time to experience ps and check out the private one. I would prefer him to stay home, but in all honesty, it's easier at home with the younger 2 without him here. That's awful to say, and it hurts to admit it, but he is sooo difficult at home right now (and has been in the past). I'm certainly not giving up on him and I want him home, his brother and sister want him home, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to time with the other 2 without him raining on our parade or interrupting. Please don't think we don't include him, we always ask him to join, always leave it open for him to join, but his response is usually "That's stupid!" or some such comment and he messes up what we're doing or demands my attention.
Gosh, it sounds like Thomas is a monster - he not! He's sweet, kind and caring when all is settled in his mind. But at times of uncertainty, he's rude, disrepectful, angry and destructive. He has made huge leaps in dealing with his feelings more appropriately, but not all the time.
Thanks,
Jen
Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:
This case is not "the right reason" for classes. The posters son
believes learning only happens from teaching and study. More
teaching and study won't help them unschool.
Maybe the mom could plan a lot of excursions and adventures away from
home, hiking, camping, swimming, going to the park to play Frisbee,
going to museums, movies, dinner theater, concerts, bike rides,
etc. Fill up his life with new things and new experiences. Give
him lots to do and to think about. Talk to him about news and world
events. Read interesting articles or snippets of articles to him.
Be on the lookout for things he likes and share them with him. And
when the topic of school comes up, talk about the mistakes schools
make in not understanding that learning is natural. Talk about why
and how people really learn. Talk about how he (the posters son)
learned to walk and talk and how that kind of natural learning is
life long . Tell him that sometimes we can't identify what we've
learned but every experience builds on our model of the world and
helps us connect thoughts and ideas. Tell him learning is happening
every minute, even when we can't see or define it. Find ways to help
him trust himself. Don't reinforce his belief that he needs school
methods in order to learn.
Deb Lewis
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jen Anderson
Deb,
As I read this reply to my hubby, he nodded and said, "This woman knows kids! We need to do those things with Thomas." This from the man who not 10 minutes earlier said, "He's going to school and he can be miserable there! He's driving me crazy!" When dh loses his patience, you know it's been tough around here!
Tell us what he likes to do and we'll see if we can come up with
things to offer. Make life at home more interesting than school.
Fill him up at home so that he doesn't feel the need to look to
school to fill him up.
He loves to read and be read to, work on his Legoland in the basement, play Pokemon on his DSLite, play Civilization IV with his dad, do science experiments (but not from a book! - from his 'What will happen if I do this? perspective", take things apart and not try to fix them or put them back together (he was in heaven when the VCR, vacuum and hand mixer broke all within a month!), loves to experiment with lit candles and various combinations of paper, pretzels and skewers, enjoys rock climbing, wrestling, biking, possibly skateboarding(is thinking about trying it), loves to go the physiotherapist with his dad ("It's cool all the stuff they use to make Daddy's back better, and to watch him squirm!), outdoor activities like hikes with a purpose, bugs, animals, loves historical documentaries about wars, ancient civilizations, shows like Mythbusters, How's It Made and Dirty Jobs, Survivor, Amazing Race, music (piano and guitar)
The one thing I would ask you to keep in mind is that it isn't just Thomas here. We have a daughter who is 8 and another son who is 6. They both love Thomas but wonder why he's so angry and nasty at times. They are thrilled when he gives them a hug or kiss or does something special for them ("He loves me, he really loves me!" my little guy said in awe one day.) Ally is old enough to stay for a couple hours at home by herself occasionally. I've been looking for someone Brian's age to trade off, but no luck yet.
Not only are schools not the only place learning happens they are
among the least likely places for learning to happen.
Tell him that and tell him why. Tell him learning happens when
people have the freedom to pursue what they're interested in for as
long (or as short a time) as they want.
I've explained this to him and used cooking as an example. He was soo excited about cooking and he did it passionately for about 3 weeks and now he's done - no problem. He and his sister spent 3 or 4 days making catapults out of scrap wood and clothes pins and hot glue. We talked about what they had figured out on their own and then I asked how he thought it would have been presented a school. He had a lot of fun telling me how those lessons would look in a school.
Can you tell him that he doesn't have to start school at the
beginning of the year, that he could join any time? Ask him to wait
because you had so many things you wanted to do together and school
would get in the way. Then, get busy finding things to do and
places to go to make his life at home with you so busy and fun he
doesn't have time to think about school. If he still wants to start school make sure he knows he can come home any time.
He knows he can come home anytime but he wants to start with his friends, or thinks he does. He thinks it'll be harder to start late. I agree with him. If he waits and he's not feeling good about hsing then he'll be angry about not starting in Sept.
Do you think there are kids who have been 'damaged' by school to such an extent that they cannot find themselves again? He was in school for just over 3 years and he changed so much in those years. I want my pre-kindergarten Thomas back!
Thanks,
Jen
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As I read this reply to my hubby, he nodded and said, "This woman knows kids! We need to do those things with Thomas." This from the man who not 10 minutes earlier said, "He's going to school and he can be miserable there! He's driving me crazy!" When dh loses his patience, you know it's been tough around here!
Tell us what he likes to do and we'll see if we can come up with
things to offer. Make life at home more interesting than school.
Fill him up at home so that he doesn't feel the need to look to
school to fill him up.
He loves to read and be read to, work on his Legoland in the basement, play Pokemon on his DSLite, play Civilization IV with his dad, do science experiments (but not from a book! - from his 'What will happen if I do this? perspective", take things apart and not try to fix them or put them back together (he was in heaven when the VCR, vacuum and hand mixer broke all within a month!), loves to experiment with lit candles and various combinations of paper, pretzels and skewers, enjoys rock climbing, wrestling, biking, possibly skateboarding(is thinking about trying it), loves to go the physiotherapist with his dad ("It's cool all the stuff they use to make Daddy's back better, and to watch him squirm!), outdoor activities like hikes with a purpose, bugs, animals, loves historical documentaries about wars, ancient civilizations, shows like Mythbusters, How's It Made and Dirty Jobs, Survivor, Amazing Race, music (piano and guitar)
The one thing I would ask you to keep in mind is that it isn't just Thomas here. We have a daughter who is 8 and another son who is 6. They both love Thomas but wonder why he's so angry and nasty at times. They are thrilled when he gives them a hug or kiss or does something special for them ("He loves me, he really loves me!" my little guy said in awe one day.) Ally is old enough to stay for a couple hours at home by herself occasionally. I've been looking for someone Brian's age to trade off, but no luck yet.
Not only are schools not the only place learning happens they are
among the least likely places for learning to happen.
Tell him that and tell him why. Tell him learning happens when
people have the freedom to pursue what they're interested in for as
long (or as short a time) as they want.
I've explained this to him and used cooking as an example. He was soo excited about cooking and he did it passionately for about 3 weeks and now he's done - no problem. He and his sister spent 3 or 4 days making catapults out of scrap wood and clothes pins and hot glue. We talked about what they had figured out on their own and then I asked how he thought it would have been presented a school. He had a lot of fun telling me how those lessons would look in a school.
Can you tell him that he doesn't have to start school at the
beginning of the year, that he could join any time? Ask him to wait
because you had so many things you wanted to do together and school
would get in the way. Then, get busy finding things to do and
places to go to make his life at home with you so busy and fun he
doesn't have time to think about school. If he still wants to start school make sure he knows he can come home any time.
He knows he can come home anytime but he wants to start with his friends, or thinks he does. He thinks it'll be harder to start late. I agree with him. If he waits and he's not feeling good about hsing then he'll be angry about not starting in Sept.
Do you think there are kids who have been 'damaged' by school to such an extent that they cannot find themselves again? He was in school for just over 3 years and he changed so much in those years. I want my pre-kindergarten Thomas back!
Thanks,
Jen
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One of the Wechts
> We live near Baltimore, MD <Hugs to you Jen.
We have a very small group of unschoolers who are trying to start gathering
occasionally in this area.
Our next Mom's meeting in Sat PM if you think you could come let me know.
I have offered an unschooling not back to school party at my house
but I don't think that the weather is going to cooperate this week.
Maybe we can find some time to get together. My kids are older and maybe
he would enjoy hanging with some big (unschooled) kids sometime.
Beth in MD (Woodbine)
Jen Anderson
Hi Beth,
We have actually met at a couple MPNL events - laser tag and the MPNL curriculum fair last spring. Thomas loved the 'choose your own adventure-type' movie your boys made. He's the one I was referring to when I said that Thomas thought "those boys had something special that I don't have".
I'll let you know about Sat. night. And, yes, he'd love to hang out with some older unschooled kids some time. To see other kids grow up, be interesting and obviously not stupid, would help him embrace unschooling.
Thanks,
Jen
One of the Wechts <erw@...> wrote:
We have a very small group of unschoolers who are trying to start gathering
occasionally in this area.
Our next Mom's meeting in Sat PM if you think you could come let me know.
I have offered an unschooling not back to school party at my house
but I don't think that the weather is going to cooperate this week.
Maybe we can find some time to get together. My kids are older and maybe
he would enjoy hanging with some big (unschooled) kids sometime.
Beth in MD (Woodbine)
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have actually met at a couple MPNL events - laser tag and the MPNL curriculum fair last spring. Thomas loved the 'choose your own adventure-type' movie your boys made. He's the one I was referring to when I said that Thomas thought "those boys had something special that I don't have".
I'll let you know about Sat. night. And, yes, he'd love to hang out with some older unschooled kids some time. To see other kids grow up, be interesting and obviously not stupid, would help him embrace unschooling.
Thanks,
Jen
One of the Wechts <erw@...> wrote:
> We live near Baltimore, MD <Hugs to you Jen.
We have a very small group of unschoolers who are trying to start gathering
occasionally in this area.
Our next Mom's meeting in Sat PM if you think you could come let me know.
I have offered an unschooling not back to school party at my house
but I don't think that the weather is going to cooperate this week.
Maybe we can find some time to get together. My kids are older and maybe
he would enjoy hanging with some big (unschooled) kids sometime.
Beth in MD (Woodbine)
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
This topic has started me thinking about something related- It seems to
me that my son as he got to be
about 10-11years old began to feel a little bored with things he had
been doing and was ready to
try some new more challenging things. I have talked to other parents of
kids this age who
have experienced something similar- a period of restlessness and boredom
while their child searches
around for themselves and moves into a new phase. This is sometimes when
a child might
decide to go to school- as it is something new and challenging out there
to attempt- especially if
nothing else is readily apparent. I know Thomas has been in school
before, so this isn't new for him.
A friend of mine with a son who is goinginto school for the first time
said something like this- he needs a new challenge, and that is where he
sees it. She wishes he would find some other interests such as my son
has but just hasn't seen
anything else that interests him. Maybe she doesn't realize that is her
job to search things out- or maybe
he really doesn't know yet- or possibly school is where he will find it.
My son started to feel like he wanted to measure up in some more
traditional way at that time. He began to
be around more schooled kids here and there. He insisted that we buy a
math text book- I really
tried to suggest other ways to meet whatever need he had there but he
was very clear. He has had one
around since then and picks it up when he wants. This is really not
important, though.
Mainly he has made huge incredible leaps into the world out there and
gotten involved in many
ways with older kids and adults who share interests. He has been very
lucky in meeting people willing to
work with him, and his ability to focus on the task at hand and behave
responsibly has really
impressed people- it is almost comical how much positive feedback he
gets. I feel like jumping up
and down and saying See, See, it does work!! Yeah! I just smile.
Maybe figure out how he can meet adults or older kids who are into what
he is doing and offer that as
an option. My son has done an apprenticeship with a luthier through a
local youth employment service,
taken music lessons with performing musicians, played magic with teens
and adult at a game store and at
the university game club, performed with adults at the farmers market,
an art museum opening, etc, will be setting
up sound for a local live music radio broadcast, had a job at the
science center(he was invited back), played
at open music jams at clubs, etc, invited to sit in on college music
classes.
This can be harder for a 10-11 year old but once kids reach the teen
years more opportunities are available. And
once the adults see how great the kids is then the whole world opens up.
I think John Taylor Gatto talks about this - kids around this age really
thriving on being able to participate in real life rather than being
relegated to a kids world. (not all of them, of course.)
My daughter is now about 10 and was feeling a little frustrated at the
lack of opportunities for kids her age to work.
She is starting a jewelry business- her grandma will sell some, and she
will try to find some other ways to sell
things around here.
Heather
me that my son as he got to be
about 10-11years old began to feel a little bored with things he had
been doing and was ready to
try some new more challenging things. I have talked to other parents of
kids this age who
have experienced something similar- a period of restlessness and boredom
while their child searches
around for themselves and moves into a new phase. This is sometimes when
a child might
decide to go to school- as it is something new and challenging out there
to attempt- especially if
nothing else is readily apparent. I know Thomas has been in school
before, so this isn't new for him.
A friend of mine with a son who is goinginto school for the first time
said something like this- he needs a new challenge, and that is where he
sees it. She wishes he would find some other interests such as my son
has but just hasn't seen
anything else that interests him. Maybe she doesn't realize that is her
job to search things out- or maybe
he really doesn't know yet- or possibly school is where he will find it.
My son started to feel like he wanted to measure up in some more
traditional way at that time. He began to
be around more schooled kids here and there. He insisted that we buy a
math text book- I really
tried to suggest other ways to meet whatever need he had there but he
was very clear. He has had one
around since then and picks it up when he wants. This is really not
important, though.
Mainly he has made huge incredible leaps into the world out there and
gotten involved in many
ways with older kids and adults who share interests. He has been very
lucky in meeting people willing to
work with him, and his ability to focus on the task at hand and behave
responsibly has really
impressed people- it is almost comical how much positive feedback he
gets. I feel like jumping up
and down and saying See, See, it does work!! Yeah! I just smile.
Maybe figure out how he can meet adults or older kids who are into what
he is doing and offer that as
an option. My son has done an apprenticeship with a luthier through a
local youth employment service,
taken music lessons with performing musicians, played magic with teens
and adult at a game store and at
the university game club, performed with adults at the farmers market,
an art museum opening, etc, will be setting
up sound for a local live music radio broadcast, had a job at the
science center(he was invited back), played
at open music jams at clubs, etc, invited to sit in on college music
classes.
This can be harder for a 10-11 year old but once kids reach the teen
years more opportunities are available. And
once the adults see how great the kids is then the whole world opens up.
I think John Taylor Gatto talks about this - kids around this age really
thriving on being able to participate in real life rather than being
relegated to a kids world. (not all of them, of course.)
My daughter is now about 10 and was feeling a little frustrated at the
lack of opportunities for kids her age to work.
She is starting a jewelry business- her grandma will sell some, and she
will try to find some other ways to sell
things around here.
Heather
>
>
One of the Wechts
*** He's the one I was referring to when I said that Thomas thought "those
boys had something special that I don't have". ****
Yep. I knew I knew you!
Maybe he could talk to Andrew about how insecure Andrew feels about his
math skills sometimes. (He keeps working on Algebra off and on). But that
it is OK and he has no plans to go back to traditional school so that they
can "teach him".
Maybe we can help him see that the most important thing my kids have
that school kids don't is TIME!!
*** I'll let you know about Sat. night. And, yes, he'd love to hang out with
some older unschooled kids some time. To see other kids grow up, be
interesting and obviously not stupid, would help him embrace unschooling.***
Maybe a Pokemon day at the local library room or something. My boys have no
problems reviving
their past love with younger cousins etc.
I may have to disagree a little with those who say "no schooly things". I
think it provides a base of security in the transitional stages. I have
found that as we went from eclectic to unschooling my kids quickly began to
recognize
the arbirary nature of things and got too busy to be bothered and we
gradually dropped them one by one.
I can't remember if Thomas ever went to school but going "cold turkey" can
be harder on some than others.
Providing them with all those fun "other" things is still best of course.
Beth in MD
boys had something special that I don't have". ****
Yep. I knew I knew you!
Maybe he could talk to Andrew about how insecure Andrew feels about his
math skills sometimes. (He keeps working on Algebra off and on). But that
it is OK and he has no plans to go back to traditional school so that they
can "teach him".
Maybe we can help him see that the most important thing my kids have
that school kids don't is TIME!!
*** I'll let you know about Sat. night. And, yes, he'd love to hang out with
some older unschooled kids some time. To see other kids grow up, be
interesting and obviously not stupid, would help him embrace unschooling.***
Maybe a Pokemon day at the local library room or something. My boys have no
problems reviving
their past love with younger cousins etc.
I may have to disagree a little with those who say "no schooly things". I
think it provides a base of security in the transitional stages. I have
found that as we went from eclectic to unschooling my kids quickly began to
recognize
the arbirary nature of things and got too busy to be bothered and we
gradually dropped them one by one.
I can't remember if Thomas ever went to school but going "cold turkey" can
be harder on some than others.
Providing them with all those fun "other" things is still best of course.
Beth in MD
Ren Allen
~~ As I read this reply to my hubby, he nodded and said, "This woman
knows kids! We need to do those things with Thomas." This from the
man who not 10 minutes earlier said, "He's going to school and he can
be miserable there! He's driving me crazy!" When dh loses his
patience, you know it's been tough around here!~~
You only need to do those things with Thomas if that's what interests
him and helps him feel that his days aren't "wasted". If your dh is
saying things like the above, then school isnt the only thing he's
been damaged by.
~ We live near Baltimore, MD and within driving distance of the Live
and Learn conference. ~~
I've heard a rumor that Kathryn and Beth are planning another NE
Unschooling conference in May.;) Hopefully she'll chime in and let us
know more.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
knows kids! We need to do those things with Thomas." This from the
man who not 10 minutes earlier said, "He's going to school and he can
be miserable there! He's driving me crazy!" When dh loses his
patience, you know it's been tough around here!~~
You only need to do those things with Thomas if that's what interests
him and helps him feel that his days aren't "wasted". If your dh is
saying things like the above, then school isnt the only thing he's
been damaged by.
~ We live near Baltimore, MD and within driving distance of the Live
and Learn conference. ~~
I've heard a rumor that Kathryn and Beth are planning another NE
Unschooling conference in May.;) Hopefully she'll chime in and let us
know more.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Jen Anderson
<jen_d_anderson@...> wrote:
usually "That's stupid!" or some such comment and he messes up what
we're doing or demands my attention.
************************
I have a feeling that the situation with the other two kids is a big
big part of *why* he wants to go back to school. It sounds like he
doesn't feel connected to what's going on in the family so he's
looking to school to provide a sense of connection.
I'm stuck especially by the comments that "we always ask him to
join" and that he has to "demand... attention". That makes it sound
like there's an us-and-him mentality in the house. Worse, the "us"
is frequently making the decisions about what's going on in the home
and "he" can only agree or not.
In order to unschool with your guy, he's going to need to feel like
a valued member of the family. When Ray moved in with us, it was
easy for me to see that one of the things "we" needed to do was to
help him feel valued and a part of the family as much as possible
right from the start. It may be that since your guy has lived with
you all along it didn't occur to you that you'd have to go through a
similar process. You may have just assumed it was a matter
of "fitting him in". Oops.
Bringing a new kid into an already unschooling family is similar to
having a new baby. There needs to be a whole lot of thought and
energy and time given to the new unschooler - his emotional needs
are going to be greater for awhile. He's going to need more support
and more attention for awhile. He's going to need "babying" to some
extent.
When Ray first moved in, I was shocked at how little he seemed to be
able to do independenly, compared to Mo. Some of that is personality
(Ray is very social) but a lot of it, especially at first, had to do
with the fact that he wasn't used to having much autonomy. At 13 he
needed at whole lot more help - and the gentlest most non-
judgemental help possible - than a much younger child. Its possible
your guy needs waaaaay more help than you've been offerring him.
School has trashed his self-confidence and he needs mom and dad to
help him build it back, through tons of non-judgemental support.
School has also trained him that the *last* thing he wants to do is
ask for help, so the closest he can get to that is by being
demanding or obstructive. Sound familiar?
*************************
Do you think there are kids who have been 'damaged' by school to
such an
extent that they cannot find themselves again? He was in school for
just over 3
years and he changed so much in those years. I want my pre-
kindergarten Thomas
back!
*************************
I think he's still plenty young enough to heal from his schooling,
but he's going to need a whole lot of really tangible support.
Maybe, rather than arguing with him about school, you can go to him
and say "Look, I think we (mom and dad) really messed up, here. We
haven't been paying enough attention to you and your needs and
that's why it seems like you haven't been learning anything. Can we
please have another chance?"
And, as Deb said, find a gazillion things to do with him. And maybe
*for* him as well. Are there little ways you can show some care and
thoughtfulness? Spend a little extra of the family budget on him for
awhile? Get/do more things just for him? Talk honestly with the
other kids about this, too.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
<jen_d_anderson@...> wrote:
>Please don't think we don't include him, we always ask him to join,always leave it open for him to join, but his response is
usually "That's stupid!" or some such comment and he messes up what
we're doing or demands my attention.
************************
I have a feeling that the situation with the other two kids is a big
big part of *why* he wants to go back to school. It sounds like he
doesn't feel connected to what's going on in the family so he's
looking to school to provide a sense of connection.
I'm stuck especially by the comments that "we always ask him to
join" and that he has to "demand... attention". That makes it sound
like there's an us-and-him mentality in the house. Worse, the "us"
is frequently making the decisions about what's going on in the home
and "he" can only agree or not.
In order to unschool with your guy, he's going to need to feel like
a valued member of the family. When Ray moved in with us, it was
easy for me to see that one of the things "we" needed to do was to
help him feel valued and a part of the family as much as possible
right from the start. It may be that since your guy has lived with
you all along it didn't occur to you that you'd have to go through a
similar process. You may have just assumed it was a matter
of "fitting him in". Oops.
Bringing a new kid into an already unschooling family is similar to
having a new baby. There needs to be a whole lot of thought and
energy and time given to the new unschooler - his emotional needs
are going to be greater for awhile. He's going to need more support
and more attention for awhile. He's going to need "babying" to some
extent.
When Ray first moved in, I was shocked at how little he seemed to be
able to do independenly, compared to Mo. Some of that is personality
(Ray is very social) but a lot of it, especially at first, had to do
with the fact that he wasn't used to having much autonomy. At 13 he
needed at whole lot more help - and the gentlest most non-
judgemental help possible - than a much younger child. Its possible
your guy needs waaaaay more help than you've been offerring him.
School has trashed his self-confidence and he needs mom and dad to
help him build it back, through tons of non-judgemental support.
School has also trained him that the *last* thing he wants to do is
ask for help, so the closest he can get to that is by being
demanding or obstructive. Sound familiar?
*************************
Do you think there are kids who have been 'damaged' by school to
such an
extent that they cannot find themselves again? He was in school for
just over 3
years and he changed so much in those years. I want my pre-
kindergarten Thomas
back!
*************************
I think he's still plenty young enough to heal from his schooling,
but he's going to need a whole lot of really tangible support.
Maybe, rather than arguing with him about school, you can go to him
and say "Look, I think we (mom and dad) really messed up, here. We
haven't been paying enough attention to you and your needs and
that's why it seems like you haven't been learning anything. Can we
please have another chance?"
And, as Deb said, find a gazillion things to do with him. And maybe
*for* him as well. Are there little ways you can show some care and
thoughtfulness? Spend a little extra of the family budget on him for
awhile? Get/do more things just for him? Talk honestly with the
other kids about this, too.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Jen Anderson
Oh, yeah. Dh and I have both said and done things that have not been helpful. Our parenting style continues to become more mindful, but we still resort back to the authoritative style we started out with 10 years ago - it happens, but we're working on it.
I'll keep my eyes open for another conference.
Thanks,
Jen
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~ As I read this reply to my hubby, he nodded and said, "This woman
knows kids! We need to do those things with Thomas." This from the
man who not 10 minutes earlier said, "He's going to school and he can
be miserable there! He's driving me crazy!" When dh loses his
patience, you know it's been tough around here!~~
You only need to do those things with Thomas if that's what interests
him and helps him feel that his days aren't "wasted". If your dh is
saying things like the above, then school isnt the only thing he's
been damaged by.
~ We live near Baltimore, MD and within driving distance of the Live
and Learn conference. ~~
I've heard a rumor that Kathryn and Beth are planning another NE
Unschooling conference in May.;) Hopefully she'll chime in and let us
know more.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'll keep my eyes open for another conference.
Thanks,
Jen
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~ As I read this reply to my hubby, he nodded and said, "This woman
knows kids! We need to do those things with Thomas." This from the
man who not 10 minutes earlier said, "He's going to school and he can
be miserable there! He's driving me crazy!" When dh loses his
patience, you know it's been tough around here!~~
You only need to do those things with Thomas if that's what interests
him and helps him feel that his days aren't "wasted". If your dh is
saying things like the above, then school isnt the only thing he's
been damaged by.
~ We live near Baltimore, MD and within driving distance of the Live
and Learn conference. ~~
I've heard a rumor that Kathryn and Beth are planning another NE
Unschooling conference in May.;) Hopefully she'll chime in and let us
know more.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
When I read your first e-mail and the first part of a more recent one, I wrote the
following:
Have either of you read "The Teenage Liberation Handbook" by Grace Llewellyn?
It might give you both a jumping off point for understanding learning without
school and being able to discuss it. Though it's aimed at teens, there's a wealth
of knowledge applicable to all ages.
Then I read this part:
younger ones have been home, right? Do you think that maybe he might really *need* more attention? He could be feeling wrong or different and if he's sensitive (and it appears to me that he might be) he'll feel this keenly, whether anything is said aloud or not. Kids who feel
"not right" are going to look for alternatives to feeling bad. That might mean school...
I have two more book recommendations, in this case: The Highly Sensitive Child
by Elaine Aron and The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. Both of these books
(though they do have chapters that focus on dealing with school) helped me understand
more about who my dd is and what I can do as a parent to help her. There is
great informatiion about how to see a child in a different light. They helped me see the
underlying "sweet, kind and caring" person she is in the midst of difficult moments. I realized
that if it's hard for me during these times, it's even harder for her.
I am better able to understand her triggers, her sensitivities and notice my own unconscious
behaviors that were making things worse. I'm not expert at it, yet, but I try to change for the
better each interaction that I'm aware of.
In the meantime, can you spend time with him and just him? He's only 10 (still young). He may need as much of your love and attention as your younger ones. Some focused doing-what-he-wants-to-do time might help. But don't make it a "learning experience," just connecting time.
And speaking of learning, my sensitive dd would be really annoyed by me pointing
out how much and what she's learning, even if she was talking about "not learning enough". She
often just wants to be heard - to have attention paid to how she's feeling. It would be pointing out ( at least, to her) where she might be deficient, if I did otherwise.
It's better for her that I'm interested in what she's doing and what she wants to tell me without the commentary. Her learning is her learning and my quantifying it diminishes her experience. This may not be true for your ds, but it's something to consider. I make a mental note of what I see, but I usually refrain from "framing" her activities in terms of "education" to her. "Hearing" her is more important.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
following:
Have either of you read "The Teenage Liberation Handbook" by Grace Llewellyn?
It might give you both a jumping off point for understanding learning without
school and being able to discuss it. Though it's aimed at teens, there's a wealth
of knowledge applicable to all ages.
Then I read this part:
> I would prefer him to stay home, but in all honesty, it's easier at home withIt sounds like more is going on here than school vs unschooling. He's been in school while
> the younger 2 without him here. That's awful to say, and it hurts to admit it,
> but he is sooo difficult at home right now (and has been in the past).
> snip<
> Please don't think we don't include him, we always ask him to join, always leave it open for him
> to join, but his response is usually "That's stupid!" or some such comment and he
> messes up what we're doing or demands my attention.
>
> Gosh, it sounds like Thomas is a monster - he not! He's sweet, kind and
> caring when all is settled in his mind. But at times of uncertainty, he's
> rude, disrepectful, angry and destructive. He has made huge leaps in dealing with
> his feelings more appropriately, but not all the time.
younger ones have been home, right? Do you think that maybe he might really *need* more attention? He could be feeling wrong or different and if he's sensitive (and it appears to me that he might be) he'll feel this keenly, whether anything is said aloud or not. Kids who feel
"not right" are going to look for alternatives to feeling bad. That might mean school...
I have two more book recommendations, in this case: The Highly Sensitive Child
by Elaine Aron and The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. Both of these books
(though they do have chapters that focus on dealing with school) helped me understand
more about who my dd is and what I can do as a parent to help her. There is
great informatiion about how to see a child in a different light. They helped me see the
underlying "sweet, kind and caring" person she is in the midst of difficult moments. I realized
that if it's hard for me during these times, it's even harder for her.
I am better able to understand her triggers, her sensitivities and notice my own unconscious
behaviors that were making things worse. I'm not expert at it, yet, but I try to change for the
better each interaction that I'm aware of.
In the meantime, can you spend time with him and just him? He's only 10 (still young). He may need as much of your love and attention as your younger ones. Some focused doing-what-he-wants-to-do time might help. But don't make it a "learning experience," just connecting time.
And speaking of learning, my sensitive dd would be really annoyed by me pointing
out how much and what she's learning, even if she was talking about "not learning enough". She
often just wants to be heard - to have attention paid to how she's feeling. It would be pointing out ( at least, to her) where she might be deficient, if I did otherwise.
It's better for her that I'm interested in what she's doing and what she wants to tell me without the commentary. Her learning is her learning and my quantifying it diminishes her experience. This may not be true for your ds, but it's something to consider. I make a mental note of what I see, but I usually refrain from "framing" her activities in terms of "education" to her. "Hearing" her is more important.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jen Anderson
Robin,
What you say is true.
He does crave 1:1 time with me, or hubby. He often asks for it and we say yes whenever we can. It doesn't happen all the time, with 2 other kids also wanting the 1:1 time. I try to schedule it in, but sometimes he asks for it, verbally or non, and it just can't happen. He's actually said to me, "Why can't we have time together when they have quiet time?" It makes perfect sense, so we do. Some days I just need 10 minutes on my own and he respects that and then we do something. When he's had the 1:1 time, he is so much happier - all the kids are.
He has always been sensitive and when he's feeling not right, it is obvious to all. We are not giving him what he needs here at home so he's looking elsewhere for it - school could be the place (he thinks). Today was a better day though. We kept busy finishing a read-aloud, burning things, Lego building. I made a point of asking him what he wanted to do - go to Target and buy the Firestation Lego set he saved up for. We went, found it and came home. While he built it I sat in the same room and read to his sister. When he got tired of building, I helped him finish. He was thrilled. When hubby got home they played Civ. IV and then I layed down with him at bedtime. He was pretty content.
As for quantifying his learning, I understand that by pointing out the learning I was making him feel inadequate (I'm sure that if I asked him, he'd tell me it's so.)
Thanks for all the food-for-thought. I'll check out the books you mentioned.
Jen
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What you say is true.
He does crave 1:1 time with me, or hubby. He often asks for it and we say yes whenever we can. It doesn't happen all the time, with 2 other kids also wanting the 1:1 time. I try to schedule it in, but sometimes he asks for it, verbally or non, and it just can't happen. He's actually said to me, "Why can't we have time together when they have quiet time?" It makes perfect sense, so we do. Some days I just need 10 minutes on my own and he respects that and then we do something. When he's had the 1:1 time, he is so much happier - all the kids are.
He has always been sensitive and when he's feeling not right, it is obvious to all. We are not giving him what he needs here at home so he's looking elsewhere for it - school could be the place (he thinks). Today was a better day though. We kept busy finishing a read-aloud, burning things, Lego building. I made a point of asking him what he wanted to do - go to Target and buy the Firestation Lego set he saved up for. We went, found it and came home. While he built it I sat in the same room and read to his sister. When he got tired of building, I helped him finish. He was thrilled. When hubby got home they played Civ. IV and then I layed down with him at bedtime. He was pretty content.
As for quantifying his learning, I understand that by pointing out the learning I was making him feel inadequate (I'm sure that if I asked him, he'd tell me it's so.)
Thanks for all the food-for-thought. I'll check out the books you mentioned.
Jen
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mom_to_kbcj
--- In [email protected], hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...>
wrote:
been having that feeling. Some days he tells me he is bored with
everything he has and I try to offer suggestions but it's not what he
wants. I think there is something about this age also and he wants to do
something real and significant. I appreciate knowing that others go
through this, heck it's the first time I've had a 12 yr old boy <g> It's
all new, everyday and stage of development.
Stephanie
www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
<http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
>to
> This topic has started me thinking about something related- It seems
> me that my son as he got to beof
> about 10-11years old began to feel a little bored with things he had
> been doing and was ready to
> try some new more challenging things. I have talked to other parents
> kids this age whoboredom
> have experienced something similar- a period of restlessness and
> while their child searches****I'm glad you brought this up, my oldest just turned 12 and he has
> around for themselves and moves into a new phase. >>>>>
been having that feeling. Some days he tells me he is bored with
everything he has and I try to offer suggestions but it's not what he
wants. I think there is something about this age also and he wants to do
something real and significant. I appreciate knowing that others go
through this, heck it's the first time I've had a 12 yr old boy <g> It's
all new, everyday and stage of development.
Stephanie
www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
<http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
I really think is a destructive situation that has been created in the
country in having such a separation between people of different ages-
physical separation as well as differences in rights and access to work
and many other things. I realize there are/were good reasons for child
labor laws- but compulsory schooling only seems to be minimal
improvement- perhaps(though not always) the kids are at least physically
safe and can get outside a little more. In my daily life I am repeatedly
struck by the disrespectful things people say about young people and
even their own children (most of these are homeschooling families). I
cringe especially when people say negative things about teens in
general- to the effect of: oh, now that you are a teenager you are
destined to become even more annoying and useless. I would say that my
son, who is 14 has better skills at getting along with all kinds of
people and being helpful and seeing what needs to be done in a situation
than many adults I know.
I think that is transition from childhood is made difficult by arbitrary
limits- for example kids not being able to hold jobs until they are 14.
When if an environment is safe and the young person is choosing to work
and has enough to eat and time to sleep and rest and not work, that
could really be the absolute best thing for that young person- to be
involved in a work environment.
It is frustrating not be allowed to do things because of your age. Young
people of many ages can do real and significant things - they often
aren't allowed to. They are in a holding tank where they are supposed to
learn first all things other things which they are supposed to need to
know before they are able to do something real.
There are a lot of interesting things out there that adults are doing
for pay or for fun or to help someone, or all three. It is a challenge
and requires some persistence in the parent's part in convincing other
adults to allow a young person to participate. We have found some great
people willing to allow our son to do real things- he has also been
involved in situations where he thinks he will be able to do something
real but actually isn't- this is very frustrating. I do see a trend at
least in our area towards recognizing that teens at least benefit from
being involved with adults in work situations- which is encouraging.
There are many more things available to our son now that he is 14.
Heather
****I'm glad you brought this up, my oldest just turned 12 and he has
been having that feeling. Some days he tells me he is bored with
everything he has and I try to offer suggestions but it's not what he
wants. I think there is something about this age also and he wants to do
something real and significant. I appreciate knowing that others go
through this, heck it's the first time I've had a 12 yr old boy <g> It's
all new, everyday and stage of development.
Stephanie
country in having such a separation between people of different ages-
physical separation as well as differences in rights and access to work
and many other things. I realize there are/were good reasons for child
labor laws- but compulsory schooling only seems to be minimal
improvement- perhaps(though not always) the kids are at least physically
safe and can get outside a little more. In my daily life I am repeatedly
struck by the disrespectful things people say about young people and
even their own children (most of these are homeschooling families). I
cringe especially when people say negative things about teens in
general- to the effect of: oh, now that you are a teenager you are
destined to become even more annoying and useless. I would say that my
son, who is 14 has better skills at getting along with all kinds of
people and being helpful and seeing what needs to be done in a situation
than many adults I know.
I think that is transition from childhood is made difficult by arbitrary
limits- for example kids not being able to hold jobs until they are 14.
When if an environment is safe and the young person is choosing to work
and has enough to eat and time to sleep and rest and not work, that
could really be the absolute best thing for that young person- to be
involved in a work environment.
It is frustrating not be allowed to do things because of your age. Young
people of many ages can do real and significant things - they often
aren't allowed to. They are in a holding tank where they are supposed to
learn first all things other things which they are supposed to need to
know before they are able to do something real.
There are a lot of interesting things out there that adults are doing
for pay or for fun or to help someone, or all three. It is a challenge
and requires some persistence in the parent's part in convincing other
adults to allow a young person to participate. We have found some great
people willing to allow our son to do real things- he has also been
involved in situations where he thinks he will be able to do something
real but actually isn't- this is very frustrating. I do see a trend at
least in our area towards recognizing that teens at least benefit from
being involved with adults in work situations- which is encouraging.
There are many more things available to our son now that he is 14.
Heather
****I'm glad you brought this up, my oldest just turned 12 and he has
been having that feeling. Some days he tells me he is bored with
everything he has and I try to offer suggestions but it's not what he
wants. I think there is something about this age also and he wants to do
something real and significant. I appreciate knowing that others go
through this, heck it's the first time I've had a 12 yr old boy <g> It's
all new, everyday and stage of development.
Stephanie
[email protected]
<<I've heard a rumor that Kathryn and Beth are planning another NE
Unschooling conference in May.;) Hopefully she'll chime in and let us know more.<<
Memorial Day weekend 2008 in Peabody, Massachusetts (near Boston)
More details soon.
Kathryn
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Unschooling conference in May.;) Hopefully she'll chime in and let us know more.<<
Memorial Day weekend 2008 in Peabody, Massachusetts (near Boston)
More details soon.
Kathryn
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
There seems to be a real change happening in the preteen and early
teen years- I letting go of childish or even current things. I
chance to examine the future and think about things. This is
probably why it becomes such a tug of war between parents and teens.
I think they need choices to drop things they no longer want to do
but may someday pick back up.
--- In [email protected], "mom_to_kbcj"
<jay_steph93@...> wrote:
teen years- I letting go of childish or even current things. I
chance to examine the future and think about things. This is
probably why it becomes such a tug of war between parents and teens.
I think they need choices to drop things they no longer want to do
but may someday pick back up.
--- In [email protected], "mom_to_kbcj"
<jay_steph93@...> wrote:
>seems
>
>
> --- In [email protected], hbmccarty <hbmccarty@>
> wrote:
> >
> > This topic has started me thinking about something related- It
> tohad
> > me that my son as he got to be
> > about 10-11years old began to feel a little bored with things he
> > been doing and was ready toparents
> > try some new more challenging things. I have talked to other
> ofhas
> > kids this age who
> > have experienced something similar- a period of restlessness and
> boredom
> > while their child searches
> > around for themselves and moves into a new phase. >>>>>
>
> ****I'm glad you brought this up, my oldest just turned 12 and he
> been having that feeling. Some days he tells me he is bored withhe
> everything he has and I try to offer suggestions but it's not what
> wants. I think there is something about this age also and he wantsto do
> something real and significant. I appreciate knowing that others go<g> It's
> through this, heck it's the first time I've had a 12 yr old boy
> all new, everyday and stage of development.
>
> Stephanie
>
> www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
> <http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Debra Rossing
oh yippee! We'll be on a slim travel budget next year (next year is
designated as The Year of Home Repair) but Massachusetts is doable!
Deb
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
designated as The Year of Home Repair) but Massachusetts is doable!
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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CNC Software, Inc.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~(next year is
designated as The Year of Home Repair) ~~
Ours is designated as the "Climb your butt out of debt" year.:)
I'm excited that TN is really a pretty quick drive up to the NE.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
designated as The Year of Home Repair) ~~
Ours is designated as the "Climb your butt out of debt" year.:)
I'm excited that TN is really a pretty quick drive up to the NE.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
marji
At 09:55 8/21/2007, you wrote:
~Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Memorial Day weekend 2008 in Peabody, Massachusetts (near Boston)Cool!!! It's on my calendar!
>More details soon.
>
>Kathryn
~Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
--Deb
(who knows we won't be climbing out of debt until around 2010 but
slowly by slowly it's happening)
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>Oh Hooray - it'd be sooo good to see you guys!
> ~~(next year is
> designated as The Year of Home Repair) ~~
>
> Ours is designated as the "Climb your butt out of debt" year.:)
> I'm excited that TN is really a pretty quick drive up to the NE.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
--Deb
(who knows we won't be climbing out of debt until around 2010 but
slowly by slowly it's happening)
[email protected]
Hi Jen,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What you say is true.I undertstand that it's harder with more than one. I only have one, so I can't give any suggestions on that score <g>.
>
> He does crave 1:1 time with me, or hubby. He often asks for it and we say yes
> whenever we can. It doesn't happen all the time, with 2 other kids also wanting
> the 1:1 time. I try to schedule it in, but sometimes he asks for it, verbally
> or non, and it just can't happen. He's actually said to me, "Why can't we have
> time together when they have quiet time?" It makes perfect sense, so we do.
> Some days I just need 10 minutes on my own and he respects that and then we do
> something. When he's had the 1:1 time, he is so much happier - all the kids
> are.
>See? You knew just what he needed, all the time :-) This sounds like a great day together.
> He has always been sensitive and when he's feeling not right, it is obvious to
> all. We are not giving him what he needs here at home so he's looking elsewhere
> for it - school could be the place (he thinks). Today was a better day though.
> We kept busy finishing a read-aloud, burning things, Lego building. I made a
> point of asking him what he wanted to do - go to Target and buy the Firestation
> Lego set he saved up for. We went, found it and came home. While he built it I
> sat in the same room and read to his sister. When he got tired of building, I
> helped him finish. He was thrilled. When hubby got home they played Civ. IV
> and then I layed down with him at bedtime. He was pretty content.
>It would be good to ask him. It could be something different, too.
> As for quantifying his learning, I understand that by pointing out the
> learning I was making him feel inadequate (I'm sure that if I asked him, he'd
> tell me it's so.)
> Thanks for all the food-for-thought. I'll check out the books you mentioned.You're welcome <g>. Happy reading! And while I think of it. Anne Ohman's list "shinewithunschooling" might be worth a look. I've learned lots from the wise folks there, also.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
>I saw this on another unschooling list, some of you may have read it. I
> http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-4311.html
thought I'd post it here
as it is pertinent to this topic. I found this to be very interesting.
Heather
wisdomalways5 wrote:
>
> There seems to be a real change happening in the preteen and early
> teen years- I letting go of childish or even current things. I
> chance to examine the future and think about things. This is
> probably why it becomes such a tug of war between parents and teens.
>
> I think they need choices to drop things they no longer want to do
> but may someday pick back up.
>
> -
>