Public School
Wildflower Car
My 16 year old has asked to try public school. Okay, so we check into it.
What crap! At least IMHO.
I feel like sending her to public school is like letting her juggle knives
at age 3. Okay, maybe I'm being rather dramatic, but I hate it. All the
stuff required to just enroll her is so crazy. But if she wants to do it and
is willing jump through the hoops to get in, we are trying to do our part.
Any thoughts?
Wildflower
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What crap! At least IMHO.
I feel like sending her to public school is like letting her juggle knives
at age 3. Okay, maybe I'm being rather dramatic, but I hate it. All the
stuff required to just enroll her is so crazy. But if she wants to do it and
is willing jump through the hoops to get in, we are trying to do our part.
Any thoughts?
Wildflower
_________________________________________________________________
Now you can see trouble�before he arrives
http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507
castlecarver
--- In [email protected], "Wildflower Car"
<unschoolfool@...> wrote:
This hasn't happened to me yet.
One of my friend's sons decided that he wanted to go to public school.
Her only requirement was that if he started a school year at the
public school, he must finish the entire year. He did... But he is
back home now and does not want to return.
Sandi
<unschoolfool@...> wrote:
>into it.
> My 16 year old has asked to try public school. Okay, so we check
This hasn't happened to me yet.
One of my friend's sons decided that he wanted to go to public school.
Her only requirement was that if he started a school year at the
public school, he must finish the entire year. He did... But he is
back home now and does not want to return.
Sandi
> What crap! At least IMHO.knives
>
> I feel like sending her to public school is like letting her juggle
> at age 3. Okay, maybe I'm being rather dramatic, but I hate it. All thedo it and
> stuff required to just enroll her is so crazy. But if she wants to
> is willing jump through the hoops to get in, we are trying to do ourpart.
>http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507
> Any thoughts?
>
> Wildflower
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Now you can see trouble before he arrives
>
>
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Her only requirement was that if he started a school year at thepublic school, he must finish the entire year.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
That is like punishing him for trying something new and making a mistake.
Not what mindful parents want in creating a relationship of trust between them and their kids.
If I took a new different job and after whatever time I decided it wasn't for me I would just quit.
I have that choice. That child did not.
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Look for a small charter school.
Kathryn
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "castlecarver" <artist@...>
--- In [email protected], "Wildflower Car"
<unschoolfool@...> wrote:
This hasn't happened to me yet.
One of my friend's sons decided that he wanted to go to public school.
Her only requirement was that if he started a school year at the
public school, he must finish the entire year. He did... But he is
back home now and does not want to return.
Sandi
Kathryn
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "castlecarver" <artist@...>
--- In [email protected], "Wildflower Car"
<unschoolfool@...> wrote:
>into it.
> My 16 year old has asked to try public school. Okay, so we check
This hasn't happened to me yet.
One of my friend's sons decided that he wanted to go to public school.
Her only requirement was that if he started a school year at the
public school, he must finish the entire year. He did... But he is
back home now and does not want to return.
Sandi
> What crap! At least IMHO.knives
>
> I feel like sending her to public school is like letting her juggle
> at age 3. Okay, maybe I'm being rather dramatic, but I hate it. All thedo it and
> stuff required to just enroll her is so crazy. But if she wants to
> is willing jump through the hoops to get in, we are trying to do ourpart.
>http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507
> Any thoughts?
>
> Wildflower
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Now you can see trouble�before he arrives
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Hampton
Let her try it out - at least she knows she can always leave if she wants to. I think it is a -I want to see what it is like- sort of thing
JulieH
JulieH
----- Original Message -----
From: Wildflower Car<mailto:unschoolfool@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:07 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Public School
My 16 year old has asked to try public school. Okay, so we check into it.
What crap! At least IMHO.
I feel like sending her to public school is like letting her juggle knives
at age 3. Okay, maybe I'm being rather dramatic, but I hate it. All the
stuff required to just enroll her is so crazy. But if she wants to do it and
is willing jump through the hoops to get in, we are trying to do our part.
Any thoughts?
Wildflower
_________________________________________________________________
Now you can see trouble.before he arrives
http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507<http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kathleen Gehrke
--- In [email protected], > ----- Original
Message -----
What is it about ps that is intriguing?
Can he/she say,hey this is dumb. Can he/she just be there for social
and pull ds and have it be okay with you?
Can he/she just try it for a day and come home and never go again.
I am sorry Wildflower this is a tough one.
Kathleen
Message -----
> From: Wildflower Car<mailto:unschoolfool@...>into it.
> My 16 year old has asked to try public school. Okay, so we check
>> Any thoughts?Why?
What is it about ps that is intriguing?
Can he/she say,hey this is dumb. Can he/she just be there for social
and pull ds and have it be okay with you?
Can he/she just try it for a day and come home and never go again.
I am sorry Wildflower this is a tough one.
Kathleen
Fetteroll
On Aug 15, 2007, at 9:07 PM, Wildflower Car wrote:
it? Isn't that what unschooling is about: letting them learn by
experience rather than by telling?
It will be hard! Kat tried 2nd grade for 3 months. At the beginning
for her it was worth putting up with the crap in order to experience
the whole deal. Eventually the bad parts out weighed the good parts.
And she hasn't had any desire to return. Two years ago she joined the
high school cross country team and though she's enjoyed being with
the kids, even that hasn't pulled her back. She took an art class
last year and this year will take art and calculus (just for fun :-)
but she can see the bogusness of the social stuff and the difference
between real learning and learning for a test. She can see the
differences in their attitudes towards learning: they're going
through the motions to get a grade whereas she's there to understand
the material because she wants to. (Choice is a powerful thing!)
I think the one thing unschooled kids miss out on is experiencing
school. ;-) *We* (the unschooling parents) can speak with authority
about how much better unschooling is because we've experienced both.
We can point out to schooling parents who want to argue that their
opinion on how learning must be is skewed because they've never
experienced unschooling. Our kids are more like schooling parents in
that they've only experienced unschooling. They can't speak with
authority on how much better it is. ;-)
Though some kids do pick up the damage that school does to their
friends and will have an opinion on what they have to go through to
learn, it really isn't the same as experiencing it first hand.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My 16 year old has asked to try public school. Okay, so we checkAnd how can she truly know what crap it is until she's experienced
> into it.
> What crap!
it? Isn't that what unschooling is about: letting them learn by
experience rather than by telling?
It will be hard! Kat tried 2nd grade for 3 months. At the beginning
for her it was worth putting up with the crap in order to experience
the whole deal. Eventually the bad parts out weighed the good parts.
And she hasn't had any desire to return. Two years ago she joined the
high school cross country team and though she's enjoyed being with
the kids, even that hasn't pulled her back. She took an art class
last year and this year will take art and calculus (just for fun :-)
but she can see the bogusness of the social stuff and the difference
between real learning and learning for a test. She can see the
differences in their attitudes towards learning: they're going
through the motions to get a grade whereas she's there to understand
the material because she wants to. (Choice is a powerful thing!)
I think the one thing unschooled kids miss out on is experiencing
school. ;-) *We* (the unschooling parents) can speak with authority
about how much better unschooling is because we've experienced both.
We can point out to schooling parents who want to argue that their
opinion on how learning must be is skewed because they've never
experienced unschooling. Our kids are more like schooling parents in
that they've only experienced unschooling. They can't speak with
authority on how much better it is. ;-)
Though some kids do pick up the damage that school does to their
friends and will have an opinion on what they have to go through to
learn, it really isn't the same as experiencing it first hand.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
Hi Wildflower-
The first time my son mentioned the possibility of wanting to try public
school I was very upset and didn't really respond very well. I needed to
process my own fears and return to trusting him to be able to make his
own decision. After I did that I was able to him less biased
information about what it was like for me at school and what I know
about schools in general, including local schools. There is quite a bit
of news about racial conflict in the local schools.
He has since then gotten involved with the music program at the local
high school. After that he has no interest in going there- not impressed
with how the kids interact - though he will continue to be involved with
the music program- a few hours a week is tolerable. He would be
interested in going to another school in a district nearby which we may
possibly move to in the future. Though he has a good friend in high
school there and sees how totally stressed this kid is- it is a public
school with a college prep focus. The friend's parents really ride him
hard too, and my son is really put off by this and doesn't understand
why they think it necessary- sometimes he doesn't have so good a time
over there because of it. He is pretty aware of the difference between
the behavior of schooled kids and his home schooled friends- though not
all of them are unschooled- and some of their parents ride them pretty
hard as well- they still seem to be decent to each other.
He is absolutely "allowed" to attend school if he wishes and to come
home the next day if that is what he decides. I agree that insisting
that the child attend an entire year is cruel- I have a friend who did
that with her son and I never understood the purpose- kind of like
punishment for his rejecting what she had given him.
Since he first thought that school might be a good idea we have also
gotten very involved with a learning center(all kinds of homschooling
families) and that has met needs for social contact with a group of
peers, things to do, and contact with other adults who have things to
share. We also make a HUGE effort to find ways for him to get involved
with other adults in the community- he is now assisting with the sound
set-up for a local live music radio program, and has done an
apprenticeship with a luthier among other things. People are always very
impressed with his behavior and one thing tends to lead to another- lots
of opportunity. This more than anything is what I think some teens might
need to fill a gap they are feeling - real involvement with people doing
real work-
good luck-
Heather
The first time my son mentioned the possibility of wanting to try public
school I was very upset and didn't really respond very well. I needed to
process my own fears and return to trusting him to be able to make his
own decision. After I did that I was able to him less biased
information about what it was like for me at school and what I know
about schools in general, including local schools. There is quite a bit
of news about racial conflict in the local schools.
He has since then gotten involved with the music program at the local
high school. After that he has no interest in going there- not impressed
with how the kids interact - though he will continue to be involved with
the music program- a few hours a week is tolerable. He would be
interested in going to another school in a district nearby which we may
possibly move to in the future. Though he has a good friend in high
school there and sees how totally stressed this kid is- it is a public
school with a college prep focus. The friend's parents really ride him
hard too, and my son is really put off by this and doesn't understand
why they think it necessary- sometimes he doesn't have so good a time
over there because of it. He is pretty aware of the difference between
the behavior of schooled kids and his home schooled friends- though not
all of them are unschooled- and some of their parents ride them pretty
hard as well- they still seem to be decent to each other.
He is absolutely "allowed" to attend school if he wishes and to come
home the next day if that is what he decides. I agree that insisting
that the child attend an entire year is cruel- I have a friend who did
that with her son and I never understood the purpose- kind of like
punishment for his rejecting what she had given him.
Since he first thought that school might be a good idea we have also
gotten very involved with a learning center(all kinds of homschooling
families) and that has met needs for social contact with a group of
peers, things to do, and contact with other adults who have things to
share. We also make a HUGE effort to find ways for him to get involved
with other adults in the community- he is now assisting with the sound
set-up for a local live music radio program, and has done an
apprenticeship with a luthier among other things. People are always very
impressed with his behavior and one thing tends to lead to another- lots
of opportunity. This more than anything is what I think some teens might
need to fill a gap they are feeling - real involvement with people doing
real work-
good luck-
Heather
[email protected]
>>I think the one thing unschooled kids miss out on is experiencingschool. ;-) <<
Julian was in school through the third grade. He says that he's kind of glad
about that, because he has always been SURE that he didn't want to go back.
The advantage of doing this at 16 is that if she decides she doesn't like
it, it's REALLY easy to pull her out. No big hoops. And she already has a good
sense of herself, so she's not going to put up with any bull-doodoo.
Kathryn
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wildflower Car
>It is for social and dance team.
>Why?
>Her friends are almost all there. She says she just feels like she is
>What is it about ps that is intriguing?
missing out on some right of passage.
>Sure!
>Can he/she say,hey this is dumb. Can he/she just be there for social
>and pull ds and have it be okay with you?
>Can he/she just try it for a day and come home and never go again.I'm thinking it will be about a month, but of course she could quit.
Wildflower
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Wildflower Car
>Look for a small charter school.No such luck around here.
>Kathryn
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GWilhelm
Hi-
I am normally a lurker but wanted to pop in to say that my now 16yo daughter
wanted to try high school out last year. She was there for 4 days. On the
5th day, she was up and dressed and decided that she didn't want to go. She
stayed home and said maybe on Monday. I ended up calling her in sick for the
next week until she was positive that she didn't want to return. Then I
withdrew her and sent in my homeshooling paperwork. She is even more
adamant now that she never wants to return. She realized that there was
only one, possibly two classes that she enjoyed but the rest were not worth
the hassle, certainly not worth getting up at 5:30 am! She kids around that
she is a 4day hs drop-out! LOL!
On the other hand, my now 17 year old son wanted to try out hs and is still
there. He is there for the social aspect, as he really enjoys being around
a big group of kids all the time. Unfortunately, that was not something I
was able to provide for him on a continuous basis.
G
I am normally a lurker but wanted to pop in to say that my now 16yo daughter
wanted to try high school out last year. She was there for 4 days. On the
5th day, she was up and dressed and decided that she didn't want to go. She
stayed home and said maybe on Monday. I ended up calling her in sick for the
next week until she was positive that she didn't want to return. Then I
withdrew her and sent in my homeshooling paperwork. She is even more
adamant now that she never wants to return. She realized that there was
only one, possibly two classes that she enjoyed but the rest were not worth
the hassle, certainly not worth getting up at 5:30 am! She kids around that
she is a 4day hs drop-out! LOL!
On the other hand, my now 17 year old son wanted to try out hs and is still
there. He is there for the social aspect, as he really enjoys being around
a big group of kids all the time. Unfortunately, that was not something I
was able to provide for him on a continuous basis.
G
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wildflower Car" <unschoolfool@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Public School
> >
>>Why?
>
> It is for social and dance team.
>>
>>What is it about ps that is intriguing?
>
> Her friends are almost all there. She says she just feels like she is
> missing out on some right of passage.
>>
>>Can he/she say,hey this is dumb. Can he/she just be there for social
>>and pull ds and have it be okay with you?
>
> Sure!
>
>>Can he/she just try it for a day and come home and never go again.
>
> I'm thinking it will be about a month, but of course she could quit.
>
> Wildflower
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel.
> http://travel.msn.com/Articles/aboutfarecast.aspx&ocid=T001MSN25A07001
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
castlecarver
--- In [email protected], "Brian & Alexandra
Polikowsky" <polykow@...> wrote:
I might say that in the case of a very young child. But this was an
older child(7th grade)and he was made well aware of the what would
happen. I don't think it was a punishment so much as a lesson in
taking responsibility for one's actions.
Here is a turn on your analogy.
I signed a contract to work for a year on a new job. Then found I
didn't like the job. Yet I still honored the contract. You see, I made
an informed decision in taking the job in the first place and I
understood the contract in advance. I stayed for one year exactly
because I made the choice to be there. And I made the agreement to
work for that amount of time regardless of how much I disliked it.
That child most certainly did have a choice. His parents tried for
weeks to persuade him to stay home. But they made that particular
agreement with him because taking a child out of the public system in
the middle of the school year in this state is something akin to
extracting teeth... and he understood that. He did exactly what I
would have done having made that agreement. He honored his contract.
He never said a word all year about not liking public school. But at
the end of the year he asked to be home schooled again.
Of course I am sure if he were truly miserable they would have done
something even so.
Sandi
Polikowsky" <polykow@...> wrote:
>started a school year at the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Her only requirement was that if he
> public school, he must finish the entireyear.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>mistake.
> That is like punishing him for trying something new and making a
> Not what mindful parents want in creating a relationship of trustbetween them and their kids.
> If I took a new different job and after whatever time I decided itwasn't for me I would just quit.
> I have that choice. That child did not.Alex,
> Alex
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I might say that in the case of a very young child. But this was an
older child(7th grade)and he was made well aware of the what would
happen. I don't think it was a punishment so much as a lesson in
taking responsibility for one's actions.
Here is a turn on your analogy.
I signed a contract to work for a year on a new job. Then found I
didn't like the job. Yet I still honored the contract. You see, I made
an informed decision in taking the job in the first place and I
understood the contract in advance. I stayed for one year exactly
because I made the choice to be there. And I made the agreement to
work for that amount of time regardless of how much I disliked it.
That child most certainly did have a choice. His parents tried for
weeks to persuade him to stay home. But they made that particular
agreement with him because taking a child out of the public system in
the middle of the school year in this state is something akin to
extracting teeth... and he understood that. He did exactly what I
would have done having made that agreement. He honored his contract.
He never said a word all year about not liking public school. But at
the end of the year he asked to be home schooled again.
Of course I am sure if he were truly miserable they would have done
something even so.
Sandi
Fetteroll
On Aug 17, 2007, at 5:36 AM, castlecarver wrote:
What if you were upset by the job but *your husband* took away your
ability to choose and made you stay the year? Would it feel the same
as choosing to stick it out yourself?
The two situations are treated the same by adults but they aren't the
same at all. Forcing someone to go through the motions of a
commitment isn't the same as having the freedom to choose to stick
with something or not.
We don't teach kids to honor commitments by taking away their ability
to quit. All we do is teach them that it rocks to be the one in
power, to be the one who can make others do what they want them to
and it sucks to be the one without power. They learn to honor
commitments -- to their own standards! -- by us honoring our
commitments, especially to them.
And I don't believe honoring commitments blindly is a good quality.
Anyone can grit their teeth and put up with something. It's a much
more useful skill to learn to assess when something is taking more
from us than it's giving back and weigh that against what impact
we're having on others. (I'm betting 99% of the managers would say
they'd much rather have an employee who wanted the job than one who
is counting the days until the torment is over. While you may have
been an uncomplaining employee, you took away the ability of the
manager to find someone who may have loved the job and given 110%.)
he has experience.
comfort is less important than our convenience. If we want a
convenient life, we shouldn't choose to have kids!
Part of the commitment as mindful unschooling parents is to help our
children explore the world. We *will* need to inconvenience ourselves
to make that happen. If we keep turned towards the inconvenience,
we'll make ourselves miserable! If we keep turned towards our kids,
the inconvenience will just be part of what we *choose* to do to help
them.
listen to them?
That's a philosophical question. What you're saying by that is that
it's okay to ignore someone's discomfort until it reaches a level
that you believe is worthy of attending to. *Is* that what you mean?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I signed a contract to work for a year on a new job. Then found IThat was your choice though. You *could* have chosen to quit.
> didn't like the job. Yet I still honored the contract.
What if you were upset by the job but *your husband* took away your
ability to choose and made you stay the year? Would it feel the same
as choosing to stick it out yourself?
The two situations are treated the same by adults but they aren't the
same at all. Forcing someone to go through the motions of a
commitment isn't the same as having the freedom to choose to stick
with something or not.
We don't teach kids to honor commitments by taking away their ability
to quit. All we do is teach them that it rocks to be the one in
power, to be the one who can make others do what they want them to
and it sucks to be the one without power. They learn to honor
commitments -- to their own standards! -- by us honoring our
commitments, especially to them.
And I don't believe honoring commitments blindly is a good quality.
Anyone can grit their teeth and put up with something. It's a much
more useful skill to learn to assess when something is taking more
from us than it's giving back and weigh that against what impact
we're having on others. (I'm betting 99% of the managers would say
they'd much rather have an employee who wanted the job than one who
is counting the days until the torment is over. While you may have
been an uncomplaining employee, you took away the ability of the
manager to find someone who may have loved the job and given 110%.)
> That child most certainly did have a choice. His parents tried forHe wanted to try something. He can't make an *informed* choice unless
> weeks to persuade him to stay home.
he has experience.
> But they made that particularIt's a hugely relationship tearing message to tell a child that his
> agreement with him because taking a child out of the public system in
> the middle of the school year in this state is something akin to
> extracting teeth
comfort is less important than our convenience. If we want a
convenient life, we shouldn't choose to have kids!
Part of the commitment as mindful unschooling parents is to help our
children explore the world. We *will* need to inconvenience ourselves
to make that happen. If we keep turned towards the inconvenience,
we'll make ourselves miserable! If we keep turned towards our kids,
the inconvenience will just be part of what we *choose* to do to help
them.
> I am sure if he were truly miserable they would have doneWhy does someone need to be *truly* miserable in order for someone to
> something even so.
listen to them?
That's a philosophical question. What you're saying by that is that
it's okay to ignore someone's discomfort until it reaches a level
that you believe is worthy of attending to. *Is* that what you mean?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
--- castlecarver <artist@...> wrote:
party to break the contract. It can be as simple as a
2 week notice. You need not have stayed.
I really don't think it's fair to compare work
situations with school. When I go to work I'm being
paid to put up with some of the nonsense. I get to
decided whether to deal with the nonsense or quit.
Also I can see the purpose of my work - it is not
meaningless as school often is.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
> Here is a turn on your analogy.Most work contract have a clause that allows either
> I signed a contract to work for a year on a new job.
> Then found I
> didn't like the job. Yet I still honored the
> contract. You see, I made
> an informed decision in taking the job in the first
> place and I
> understood the contract in advance. I stayed for one
> year exactly
> because I made the choice to be there. And I made
> the agreement to
> work for that amount of time regardless of how much
> I disliked it.
>
party to break the contract. It can be as simple as a
2 week notice. You need not have stayed.
I really don't think it's fair to compare work
situations with school. When I go to work I'm being
paid to put up with some of the nonsense. I get to
decided whether to deal with the nonsense or quit.
Also I can see the purpose of my work - it is not
meaningless as school often is.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
Sylvia Toyama
I might say that in the case of a very young child. But this was an older child(7th grade)and he was made well aware of the what would happen. I don't think it was a punishment so much as a lesson in taking responsibility for one's actions.
****
Recognizing that school wasn't right for him and asking to come home would be *responsibility* enough in our family.
****
Here is a turn on your analogy.
I signed a contract to work for a year on a new job. Then found I didn't like the job. Yet I still honored the contract. You see, I made an informed decision in taking the job in the first place and I understood the contract in advance. I stayed for one year exactly because I made the choice to be there. And I made the agreement to work for that amount of time regardless of how much I disliked it.
****
Not really a good analogy, IMO. When you take a JOB people are counting on you. When a child goes to school the only one counting on anything is the local school board hoping to get the federal money that filled desk brings on day 40.
*****
That child most certainly did have a choice. His parents tried for weeks to persuade him to stay home. But they made that particular agreement with him because taking a child out of the public system in the middle of the school year in this state is something akin to
extracting teeth... and he understood that. He did exactly what I would have done having made that agreement. He honored his contract. He never said a word all year about not liking public school. But at the end of the year he asked to be home schooled again.
*****
Sure, he said nothing -- because he already knew no one would care how unhappy he was, no one would offer him any break or any out. Why bother to share your pain when no one cares enough to help you?
*****
Of course I am sure if he were truly miserable they would have done something even so.
*****
Truly miserable?! Maybe he was miserable and just never saw any reason to tell his parents. After all, his year wasn't up yet, so what difference would his pain make?
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
Recognizing that school wasn't right for him and asking to come home would be *responsibility* enough in our family.
****
Here is a turn on your analogy.
I signed a contract to work for a year on a new job. Then found I didn't like the job. Yet I still honored the contract. You see, I made an informed decision in taking the job in the first place and I understood the contract in advance. I stayed for one year exactly because I made the choice to be there. And I made the agreement to work for that amount of time regardless of how much I disliked it.
****
Not really a good analogy, IMO. When you take a JOB people are counting on you. When a child goes to school the only one counting on anything is the local school board hoping to get the federal money that filled desk brings on day 40.
*****
That child most certainly did have a choice. His parents tried for weeks to persuade him to stay home. But they made that particular agreement with him because taking a child out of the public system in the middle of the school year in this state is something akin to
extracting teeth... and he understood that. He did exactly what I would have done having made that agreement. He honored his contract. He never said a word all year about not liking public school. But at the end of the year he asked to be home schooled again.
*****
Sure, he said nothing -- because he already knew no one would care how unhappy he was, no one would offer him any break or any out. Why bother to share your pain when no one cares enough to help you?
*****
Of course I am sure if he were truly miserable they would have done something even so.
*****
Truly miserable?! Maybe he was miserable and just never saw any reason to tell his parents. After all, his year wasn't up yet, so what difference would his pain make?
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 10:16 8/17/2007, you wrote:
you're saying, if Mom and Dad really made it sound like helping him
come back home was akin to getting their teeth pulled, perhaps it
would have been too costly for him to have to put up with their
whining and moaning about how difficult this was, and "Didn't we tell
you before that you shouldn't have gone in the first
place?"** Sounds like this young child may have had to pick his
misery, the lesser perhaps of two unpalatable choices. Perhaps he
reasoned that sticking it out for the year was a more finite misery
than having to put up with the emotional crap he might have received
at the hands of his rescuers. KWIM?
** And, if this is true, what an awful message to receive from your
parents. Essentially: We know better than you about you. Don't
experiment, just ask us and we'll tell you if it'd be good for you or
not. Ewww.
The whole thing sounds sad to me, hardly the joy that makes
unschooling the magical thing it can be!
~Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Of course I am sure if he were truly miserable they would have doneBut at what cost? I certainly can't know for sure, but from what
>something even so.
you're saying, if Mom and Dad really made it sound like helping him
come back home was akin to getting their teeth pulled, perhaps it
would have been too costly for him to have to put up with their
whining and moaning about how difficult this was, and "Didn't we tell
you before that you shouldn't have gone in the first
place?"** Sounds like this young child may have had to pick his
misery, the lesser perhaps of two unpalatable choices. Perhaps he
reasoned that sticking it out for the year was a more finite misery
than having to put up with the emotional crap he might have received
at the hands of his rescuers. KWIM?
** And, if this is true, what an awful message to receive from your
parents. Essentially: We know better than you about you. Don't
experiment, just ask us and we'll tell you if it'd be good for you or
not. Ewww.
The whole thing sounds sad to me, hardly the joy that makes
unschooling the magical thing it can be!
~Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I might say that in the case of a very young child. But this was an
older child(7th grade)and he was made well aware of the what would
happen. I don't think it was a punishment so much as a lesson in
taking responsibility for one's actions. ~~
So if my dh makes me "well aware" of what can happen, then he has the
right to force me to do something I don't want to do? Children are the
only members of society that are made to put up with such behavior.
It's wrong.
How can a person take responsibility for their own actions when
someone else is forcing them to do something? That isn't personal
responsibility at all! How can a child feel safe in coming to a parent
with stress or unhappiness if the parent made it very clear there
would be no help in solving the problem?
I would not lay that heavy burden on my child. I want them to know I
support THEIR decisions and will be there for them no matter what. I
don't want them to be afraid to discuss issues with me due to
judgement about the choice.
I wouldn't try to talk my child out of going to school either. I would
lay out all the information, help them research all ends of it and
trust their choice.
My oldest child is looking to move out of the house this fall. He's
never held a job long-term (worked for his Dad a few months and
volunteered with a friend for a while), he doesn't have his drivers
permit yet. I could be a negative force in his decision. I don't think
that will do anything but put a wedge between us. He knows we support
him 100% and will do everything in our power to help him figure this out.
He's already decided to purchase a bike and not drive for now. I
really had the idea that he would be home for a few more years...it's
not easy to let go. I also know that he may change his mind, we will
support that 100% too. He knows we are on his side. He knows we trust
his choices and won't berate him for those choices regardless of the
outcome. I think that is vital to trust and in unschooling, trust is
everything.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
older child(7th grade)and he was made well aware of the what would
happen. I don't think it was a punishment so much as a lesson in
taking responsibility for one's actions. ~~
So if my dh makes me "well aware" of what can happen, then he has the
right to force me to do something I don't want to do? Children are the
only members of society that are made to put up with such behavior.
It's wrong.
How can a person take responsibility for their own actions when
someone else is forcing them to do something? That isn't personal
responsibility at all! How can a child feel safe in coming to a parent
with stress or unhappiness if the parent made it very clear there
would be no help in solving the problem?
I would not lay that heavy burden on my child. I want them to know I
support THEIR decisions and will be there for them no matter what. I
don't want them to be afraid to discuss issues with me due to
judgement about the choice.
I wouldn't try to talk my child out of going to school either. I would
lay out all the information, help them research all ends of it and
trust their choice.
My oldest child is looking to move out of the house this fall. He's
never held a job long-term (worked for his Dad a few months and
volunteered with a friend for a while), he doesn't have his drivers
permit yet. I could be a negative force in his decision. I don't think
that will do anything but put a wedge between us. He knows we support
him 100% and will do everything in our power to help him figure this out.
He's already decided to purchase a bike and not drive for now. I
really had the idea that he would be home for a few more years...it's
not easy to let go. I also know that he may change his mind, we will
support that 100% too. He knows we are on his side. He knows we trust
his choices and won't berate him for those choices regardless of the
outcome. I think that is vital to trust and in unschooling, trust is
everything.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
marji
At 10:35 8/17/2007, you wrote:
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>My oldest child is looking to move out of the house this fall. He's(((((((((((Ren)))))))))))
>never held a job long-term (worked for his Dad a few months and
>volunteered with a friend for a while), he doesn't have his drivers
>permit yet. I could be a negative force in his decision. I don't think
> that will do anything but put a wedge between us. He knows we support
>him 100% and will do everything in our power to help him figure this out.
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/17/2007 2:36:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
artist@... writes:
That child most certainly did have a choice. His parents tried for
weeks to persuade him to stay home. But they made that particular
agreement with him because taking a child out of the public system in
the middle of the school year in this state is something akin to
extracting teeth... and he understood that. He did exactly what I
would have done having made that agreement. He honored his contract.
He never said a word all year about not liking public school. But at
the end of the year he asked to be home schooled again.
That doesn't sound like choice to me, personally. It sounds like, to my
ears, "See? Told you public school was terrible. Now you have to finish this year
no matter what, Mister!" I understand that may not be the way it really was,
but via emails, that's the impression (possibly wrongly!) am picking up. A
whole year of something that is so disliked...well, I just don't see it as the
same for an 11 year old young-young adult vs an adult with financial
responsibilities. 11 is a great time to try new things and make changes because it's
a sampling time of life. I don't know...I guess it really makes very little
difference at this point, and it's just talk now anyway. I was just thinking
about on the opposite, kinda, side of things, my daughter Grace wanting to
continue public school, and my wanting her to do unschooling. I told her that
she is free to decide what she wants to do, with or without my help, and that
any time during the year, we can make needed changes if that should arise. And
vice versa - back IN to public school if she leaves and wants to return.
It's a good discussion for me to read about though. I always get stuff to
think about from especially those that do things differently from the way I
think I would.
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
artist@... writes:
That child most certainly did have a choice. His parents tried for
weeks to persuade him to stay home. But they made that particular
agreement with him because taking a child out of the public system in
the middle of the school year in this state is something akin to
extracting teeth... and he understood that. He did exactly what I
would have done having made that agreement. He honored his contract.
He never said a word all year about not liking public school. But at
the end of the year he asked to be home schooled again.
That doesn't sound like choice to me, personally. It sounds like, to my
ears, "See? Told you public school was terrible. Now you have to finish this year
no matter what, Mister!" I understand that may not be the way it really was,
but via emails, that's the impression (possibly wrongly!) am picking up. A
whole year of something that is so disliked...well, I just don't see it as the
same for an 11 year old young-young adult vs an adult with financial
responsibilities. 11 is a great time to try new things and make changes because it's
a sampling time of life. I don't know...I guess it really makes very little
difference at this point, and it's just talk now anyway. I was just thinking
about on the opposite, kinda, side of things, my daughter Grace wanting to
continue public school, and my wanting her to do unschooling. I told her that
she is free to decide what she wants to do, with or without my help, and that
any time during the year, we can make needed changes if that should arise. And
vice versa - back IN to public school if she leaves and wants to return.
It's a good discussion for me to read about though. I always get stuff to
think about from especially those that do things differently from the way I
think I would.
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
My oldest child is looking to move out of the house this fall. He's
never held a job long-term (worked for his Dad a few months and
volunteered with a friend for a while), he doesn't have his drivers
permit yet. I could be a negative force in his decision. I don't think
that will do anything but put a wedge between us. He knows we support
him 100% and will do everything in our power to help him figure this out.
*****
How exciting! Will left home at 18, going to North Carolina to work for my brother -- his first full-time job, no driver's license. He stayed just over two years, came back home for about 9 months, and is back in his own place since last April. He still has no driver's license, tho he did get one (and a car) during his time in NC. The expense of a car and insurance, maintenance and upkeep, as well as his philosophy about the pollution and *green* factors, and his desire to live alone (paying for a car would require roommates) make car ownership undesirable for him. He found an apartment on a city bus line, within walking distance of his job, once a week I pick him up when I'm in town anyway so he can come here to do laundry and check the internet (a puter isn't really in his budge right now, either). So, it is possible to move away from home without a car or full-time job experience, if it's really the right step.
Of course, it's downright surreal to have that little boy grow into a *man* with his own place and life outside the family. A whole new season for Mom & Dad, too!
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
never held a job long-term (worked for his Dad a few months and
volunteered with a friend for a while), he doesn't have his drivers
permit yet. I could be a negative force in his decision. I don't think
that will do anything but put a wedge between us. He knows we support
him 100% and will do everything in our power to help him figure this out.
*****
How exciting! Will left home at 18, going to North Carolina to work for my brother -- his first full-time job, no driver's license. He stayed just over two years, came back home for about 9 months, and is back in his own place since last April. He still has no driver's license, tho he did get one (and a car) during his time in NC. The expense of a car and insurance, maintenance and upkeep, as well as his philosophy about the pollution and *green* factors, and his desire to live alone (paying for a car would require roommates) make car ownership undesirable for him. He found an apartment on a city bus line, within walking distance of his job, once a week I pick him up when I'm in town anyway so he can come here to do laundry and check the internet (a puter isn't really in his budge right now, either). So, it is possible to move away from home without a car or full-time job experience, if it's really the right step.
Of course, it's downright surreal to have that little boy grow into a *man* with his own place and life outside the family. A whole new season for Mom & Dad, too!
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
:: anne | arun ::
I have not kept up with all of the posts to this thread but this
caught my attention...
========
I was in a similar situation a few years ago. In contrast to your
experience I broke my contract and kept my boss happy by finding a
willing and probably more capable replacement for myself (he was a
friend of mine who then always would talk about how he "owed me" for
landing them such "a good job").
Its not what you were raising directly but this aspect of the thread
reminds me of the argument that children have to learn to accept the
way things are and know how to work within a system in learning to be
responsible etc.. While I agree that we do have to understand and
work within the system at times, I hope that our unschooling approach
is assisting our children to develop creative and lateral solution
seeking perspectives that will sometimes take them outside the box.
In the instance I mentioned about my job � If I had to and could find
no options, yes I would have made the most of the situation and
stayed in my job... but ive found that it is difficult to see open
doors unless you are open to the possibility of them existing and try
to seek them out.
I hope my children do not accept things unnecessarily. I hope that I
am helping them to become creative in exploring/ experimenting in
discovering who they are and what they want. And I hope that I can be
as "unreasonable, determined and creative" at times in my own life...
as that is where much of the interesting stuff and major change tends
to happen.
arun
_____________________________________________
| anne + arun |
http://www.theparentingpit.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
caught my attention...
========
> Here is a turn on your analogy.========
> I signed a contract to work for a year on a new job. Then found I
> didn't like
> the job. Yet I still honored the contract. You see, I made an
> informed decision
> in taking the job in the first place and I understood the contract
> in advance. I
> stayed for one year exactly because I made the choice to be there.
> And I made
> the agreement to work for that amount of time regardless of how
> much I disliked
> it.
I was in a similar situation a few years ago. In contrast to your
experience I broke my contract and kept my boss happy by finding a
willing and probably more capable replacement for myself (he was a
friend of mine who then always would talk about how he "owed me" for
landing them such "a good job").
Its not what you were raising directly but this aspect of the thread
reminds me of the argument that children have to learn to accept the
way things are and know how to work within a system in learning to be
responsible etc.. While I agree that we do have to understand and
work within the system at times, I hope that our unschooling approach
is assisting our children to develop creative and lateral solution
seeking perspectives that will sometimes take them outside the box.
In the instance I mentioned about my job � If I had to and could find
no options, yes I would have made the most of the situation and
stayed in my job... but ive found that it is difficult to see open
doors unless you are open to the possibility of them existing and try
to seek them out.
I hope my children do not accept things unnecessarily. I hope that I
am helping them to become creative in exploring/ experimenting in
discovering who they are and what they want. And I hope that I can be
as "unreasonable, determined and creative" at times in my own life...
as that is where much of the interesting stuff and major change tends
to happen.
arun
_____________________________________________
| anne + arun |
http://www.theparentingpit.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
* While I agree that we do have to understand and
work within the system at times, I hope that our unschooling approach
is assisting our children to develop creative and lateral solution
seeking perspectives that will sometimes take them outside the box.*
I just love this attitude, and I am trying to help explore this with my kids daily. What is another option or viewpoint? What are the other possibilities? You must believe in them to see them! I tell my kids that there are a few absolutely unavoidable facts or rules in life, but there are lots more that are unneeded, false, pointless. One of the most creative opportunities in life is to seek these areas and go beyond them.
I think that this also overlaps with a post I read by Joyce Fetteroll. In it she was perceptively admitting that if one of her kids decided to believe in creation instead of evolution, she'd be upset. Yet she knew that really that wasn't the answer, posing the great question "What would we hope the response would be to a child of a creationist who decided to believe in evolution?" Now actually I don't mean that finding creative solutions to problems overlaps with the creationist/evolutionist debate. But this devisive debate actually is an example of a highly divisive conflict that I see as pointless. We can easily believe a third thing (or a fourth thing) such as, maybe once things are created then they evolve. Or maybe evolution is a creative process. The examples aren't the point, but rather the notion of finding another view.
Public school in my experince specializes in squelching peoples' hopes that there is another way, that life is full of possibilities. It never ceases to amaze me how most folks deny that!
work within the system at times, I hope that our unschooling approach
is assisting our children to develop creative and lateral solution
seeking perspectives that will sometimes take them outside the box.*
I just love this attitude, and I am trying to help explore this with my kids daily. What is another option or viewpoint? What are the other possibilities? You must believe in them to see them! I tell my kids that there are a few absolutely unavoidable facts or rules in life, but there are lots more that are unneeded, false, pointless. One of the most creative opportunities in life is to seek these areas and go beyond them.
I think that this also overlaps with a post I read by Joyce Fetteroll. In it she was perceptively admitting that if one of her kids decided to believe in creation instead of evolution, she'd be upset. Yet she knew that really that wasn't the answer, posing the great question "What would we hope the response would be to a child of a creationist who decided to believe in evolution?" Now actually I don't mean that finding creative solutions to problems overlaps with the creationist/evolutionist debate. But this devisive debate actually is an example of a highly divisive conflict that I see as pointless. We can easily believe a third thing (or a fourth thing) such as, maybe once things are created then they evolve. Or maybe evolution is a creative process. The examples aren't the point, but rather the notion of finding another view.
Public school in my experince specializes in squelching peoples' hopes that there is another way, that life is full of possibilities. It never ceases to amaze me how most folks deny that!
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: castlecarver <artist@...>
One of my friend's sons decided that he wanted to go to public school.
Her only requirement was that if he started a school year at the
public school, he must finish the entire year. He did... But he is
back home now and does not want to return.
-=-=-
My question is, "What does the mother think he learned?"
Not that you need to answer this! <G> Just throwing it out there!
Very often a child does not learn the "lesson" we think he ought
to/should. I'm sure she felt he'd learn responsibility and commitment.
In reality, he learned that he couldn't trust his parents to help him
out of an uncomforatble situation.
He learned that trying something new---no matter how inviting ot
attractive---might just not be worth the effort. What if you find you
don't like it? *MUST* you always finish what you start? If so, why
start anything? It might end up being horrible, and there you are STUCK
with no way out. Better to not try at all.
It's a *very* huge gift we give when we allow our children to try many
new things without the long commitment attached. Enduring is not the
same as enjoying. When enjoyment switches to endurance---it's time to
find a better use of our time!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: castlecarver <artist@...>
One of my friend's sons decided that he wanted to go to public school.
Her only requirement was that if he started a school year at the
public school, he must finish the entire year. He did... But he is
back home now and does not want to return.
-=-=-
My question is, "What does the mother think he learned?"
Not that you need to answer this! <G> Just throwing it out there!
Very often a child does not learn the "lesson" we think he ought
to/should. I'm sure she felt he'd learn responsibility and commitment.
In reality, he learned that he couldn't trust his parents to help him
out of an uncomforatble situation.
He learned that trying something new---no matter how inviting ot
attractive---might just not be worth the effort. What if you find you
don't like it? *MUST* you always finish what you start? If so, why
start anything? It might end up being horrible, and there you are STUCK
with no way out. Better to not try at all.
It's a *very* huge gift we give when we allow our children to try many
new things without the long commitment attached. Enduring is not the
same as enjoying. When enjoyment switches to endurance---it's time to
find a better use of our time!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Schuyler
> I might say that in the case of a very young child. But this was anIt seems to me that the lesson that was being taught was not to do something
> older child(7th grade)and he was made well aware of the what would
> happen. I don't think it was a punishment so much as a lesson in
> taking responsibility for one's actions.
that his parents begged him not to. Or don't try anything new unless you are
willing to do it for whatever the contract period is. Or that his parents
aren't willing to let him gently and comfortably explore the world and to
help him do it slowly and in his own time.
I think it is a pretty normal for parents to say "You made your bed, now lie
in it." Y'know, it'll teach 'em that when they make a commitment to do
something they should follow through. I don't think it helps, though. I had
that lesson given to me repeatedly throughout my childhood. I had many terms
of lessons and classes that I'd made a "commitment to" so I had to finish at
least that term before being allowed to quit. I don't really know that I
ever asked to quit, either. I knew that I was in for the long haul. I would
only ask not to be re-enrolled in the next session. The funny thing is that
I have a real sense that I'm a quitter. That I can't follow anything
through. I think if I'd been allowed to drop in and out of different
experiences, different classes until I'd found the kind of extracurricular
activity that appealled I would have understood the dabbling nature that I
have more than having to finish anything that I signed up to do ever helped
me to do.
There is a recent paper/study out by a social psychologist, Dr. Brooke
Feeney, that argues that adults in emotionally supportive relationships are
more confident and capable than adults in relationships that aren't
nurturing. It is the complete opposite of what this boy's parents were
arguing. A review of the paper is here:
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07155/791406-51.stm (hopefully I'll be able to
get my hands on the paper sometime soon). The interesting finding is summed
up in this quote:
"With both groups, Dr. Feeney interviewed the couples to see how well they
felt one partner met the other's needs in times of distress, and then
videotaped them interacting with each other. They were also interviewed
about the independence and confidence of the person seeking help.
"A clear pattern emerged. Those whose partners were best at responding to
their emotional needs also felt the most confident and capable of achieving
their own goals."
---
It seems intuitive, really. That being emotionally supportive of your
partner helps them to feel strong and independent. But it is something that
parents seem to forget, or intuitively detach from. The idea that a child
should be forced to sit through something, should be made to suffer in order
to learn a lesson (and really, what is the lesson they are going to learn?)
seems to prevail while the more intuitive, supportive approach loses out.
I would argue that your friends damaged their relationship with their son by
first arguing that he couldn't possibly know that wanting to go to school
was what he wanted to do and then by telling him that he didn't have any
other options but to stick with the obviously wrong-headed choice he made. I
wouldn't trust David (my husband) if he did something to me like that, nor
would I expect him to trust me if I made him stick it out. Given that, why
would I ever think that doing that to my son Simon or daughter Linnaea would
help them to feel nurtured and safe.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
~~ It seems to me that the lesson that was being taught was not to do
something that his parents begged him not to. Or don't try anything
new unless you are willing to do it for whatever the contract period
is.~~
My always unschooled nephew starts High School on Monday. I'm not
sure how all of this will go for him, but I think the school got more
than they bargained for in my sister.;)
So far, everything the school has required of them has been
questioned. Her friends sitting outside the door as she went through
the registration process were laughing hysterically because all they
could hear is my sister saying "WHAT? Why do you need THAT? You have
got to be KIDDING me!!" over and over.
They claimed to require the names and ages of all the other children
in the house. She knows the law and told them "no thanks, you don't
need that." They claimed that Kevin would need to have his vax up to
date. Uh-uh....they went to a doc that is supportive of non-vax and
got a form filled out. The school counselor said something about "Well
THIS is going to be a big shock for him"
"And why is that?" my sister asks.
"Well grades and tests and all, he's never had that before."
"Why would that be a shock when we don't place any emphasis on grades
or tests?"
No answer to that.
The point is....Kevin knows his family is on his side. He OWNS this
school experience and there is ZERO shame in changing his mind.
I was thinking about what school would have been like without the
grade and test pressure. I think I actually would have enjoyed a lot
of it. Not only does Kevin have no grade or test pressure, but no
expectations about how long he attends or how he utilizes this
learning experience. That makes a big difference.
He's already scratching his head at some of the arbitrary rule stuff.
He sees right through it. Wish I could have at that age. School isn't
going to be soul-crushing for him. What a great thing to have parents
that support your choices 100%.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
something that his parents begged him not to. Or don't try anything
new unless you are willing to do it for whatever the contract period
is.~~
My always unschooled nephew starts High School on Monday. I'm not
sure how all of this will go for him, but I think the school got more
than they bargained for in my sister.;)
So far, everything the school has required of them has been
questioned. Her friends sitting outside the door as she went through
the registration process were laughing hysterically because all they
could hear is my sister saying "WHAT? Why do you need THAT? You have
got to be KIDDING me!!" over and over.
They claimed to require the names and ages of all the other children
in the house. She knows the law and told them "no thanks, you don't
need that." They claimed that Kevin would need to have his vax up to
date. Uh-uh....they went to a doc that is supportive of non-vax and
got a form filled out. The school counselor said something about "Well
THIS is going to be a big shock for him"
"And why is that?" my sister asks.
"Well grades and tests and all, he's never had that before."
"Why would that be a shock when we don't place any emphasis on grades
or tests?"
No answer to that.
The point is....Kevin knows his family is on his side. He OWNS this
school experience and there is ZERO shame in changing his mind.
I was thinking about what school would have been like without the
grade and test pressure. I think I actually would have enjoyed a lot
of it. Not only does Kevin have no grade or test pressure, but no
expectations about how long he attends or how he utilizes this
learning experience. That makes a big difference.
He's already scratching his head at some of the arbitrary rule stuff.
He sees right through it. Wish I could have at that age. School isn't
going to be soul-crushing for him. What a great thing to have parents
that support your choices 100%.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Lisa
Arun wrote:
in the 40's and 50's in the time of being seen and not heard.. had a
very strict father who really ruled with an iron fist etc... that said
he has always been the type to really listen to us when we were kids
because he never felt like his side was heard. As a child he felt
that by being a child he was automatically at fault and could not be
right. He used to tell me when my kids were little that I needed
to be firmer with them, that if I didn't tighten up on them they would
run me over. Over time he's seen that the freedom I give them works
to make them kids who have no desire to run over anyone because they
are treated fairly and gently.
Recently we were visiting and my father said he wanted to take the
boats out but since my brother's boat was broken there wasn't room for
everyone to go in just one boat. He wanted to be fair and not leave
anyone out so he was trying to figure out how to do it. My 6 yr old
walks over pats him and says "it's ok grand daddy I will help you
figure it out" then he proceeded to brainstorm ideas for how it would
work... take all the little kids first, take the teens that wanted to
ski next, go out again with anyone else that didn't get to go or
wanted to go again. My Dad was really impressed and commented on how
thoughtful he thought it was that Jack really cared about him getting
to do what he wanted to do and how mature he thought it was that he
was able to give possible solutions to make it happen. Then my dad
said "you know it really makes you feel like you matter when someone
goes to the trouble to help you get what you want or need even if it's
alot of work". I think that is my goal... I want my kids to know
they matter within my family, their community and their world.
Lisa Blocker
> Its not what you were raising directly but this aspect of the threadWe had a funny experience regarding this recently... my dad was raised
> reminds me of the argument that children have to learn to accept the
> way things are and know how to work within a system in learning to be
> responsible etc.. While I agree that we do have to understand and
> work within the system at times, I hope that our unschooling approach
> is assisting our children to develop creative and lateral solution
> seeking perspectives that will sometimes take them outside the box.
>
in the 40's and 50's in the time of being seen and not heard.. had a
very strict father who really ruled with an iron fist etc... that said
he has always been the type to really listen to us when we were kids
because he never felt like his side was heard. As a child he felt
that by being a child he was automatically at fault and could not be
right. He used to tell me when my kids were little that I needed
to be firmer with them, that if I didn't tighten up on them they would
run me over. Over time he's seen that the freedom I give them works
to make them kids who have no desire to run over anyone because they
are treated fairly and gently.
Recently we were visiting and my father said he wanted to take the
boats out but since my brother's boat was broken there wasn't room for
everyone to go in just one boat. He wanted to be fair and not leave
anyone out so he was trying to figure out how to do it. My 6 yr old
walks over pats him and says "it's ok grand daddy I will help you
figure it out" then he proceeded to brainstorm ideas for how it would
work... take all the little kids first, take the teens that wanted to
ski next, go out again with anyone else that didn't get to go or
wanted to go again. My Dad was really impressed and commented on how
thoughtful he thought it was that Jack really cared about him getting
to do what he wanted to do and how mature he thought it was that he
was able to give possible solutions to make it happen. Then my dad
said "you know it really makes you feel like you matter when someone
goes to the trouble to help you get what you want or need even if it's
alot of work". I think that is my goal... I want my kids to know
they matter within my family, their community and their world.
Lisa Blocker
Genevieve
My 11yo Daughter decided that this year she would like to try public
school. So far she's loving it, but I need some help, lol. Besides
missing her (which every mom has to deal with I think if your baby is
away) I am wondering how to deal with the issues of homework and
attendance. SO far she doesn't have much homework with this school
and I haven't even had to remind her about it. There was one math
assignment which she had to do about 30 problems of the same type and
we both agreed it seemed redundant and I told her if she wanted to I
would tell the teacher I didn't see the point in it if she already
had the concept down, but she opted to do it anyway. I'm wondering
what I am going to do if she comes home with some assignment that she
really doesn't want to do, do I just let her not turn it in and get a
0? My husband wouldn't agree to that :/
My other question is how do I handle the days when she's just too
tired to go to school. Really it's how do I handle the system, not my
daughter who is wonderful. I don't see forcing her to go, but they do
have a maximum number of days she can miss. Neither of us are morning
people and there have been a couple days where she just didn't want
to get up, so I called her in sick. Today my husband didn't get her
to the bus on time and she's home. We only have one car right now or
I would have taken her, she's missing a pep rally which apparently
she loves. I just want to keep the unschooling ethic with her as much
as possible, and who knows maybe next year she'll decide to stay home
again. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Genevieve
mom to Bethany(11), Valerie (3), Aiden (2), and Odin (6mos)
school. So far she's loving it, but I need some help, lol. Besides
missing her (which every mom has to deal with I think if your baby is
away) I am wondering how to deal with the issues of homework and
attendance. SO far she doesn't have much homework with this school
and I haven't even had to remind her about it. There was one math
assignment which she had to do about 30 problems of the same type and
we both agreed it seemed redundant and I told her if she wanted to I
would tell the teacher I didn't see the point in it if she already
had the concept down, but she opted to do it anyway. I'm wondering
what I am going to do if she comes home with some assignment that she
really doesn't want to do, do I just let her not turn it in and get a
0? My husband wouldn't agree to that :/
My other question is how do I handle the days when she's just too
tired to go to school. Really it's how do I handle the system, not my
daughter who is wonderful. I don't see forcing her to go, but they do
have a maximum number of days she can miss. Neither of us are morning
people and there have been a couple days where she just didn't want
to get up, so I called her in sick. Today my husband didn't get her
to the bus on time and she's home. We only have one car right now or
I would have taken her, she's missing a pep rally which apparently
she loves. I just want to keep the unschooling ethic with her as much
as possible, and who knows maybe next year she'll decide to stay home
again. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Genevieve
mom to Bethany(11), Valerie (3), Aiden (2), and Odin (6mos)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 11, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Genevieve wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am wondering how to deal with the issues of homework andQuick answer, Sandra Dodd wrote an essay about schooling by choice:
> attendance.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki
Hi Genevieve,
I'm coming at this from the other end, meaning that my daughter is 17
and never (un)homeschooled. (I currently unschool my ds 9)
When I divorced her dad, I had to use daycare. Thank God I found a
good one. Then she did public Kindergarten, private first through
fifth, then gifted 6th- IB, AP high school only to 'drop-out' in
11th, when her two best friends were killed this last spring. She
has since taken her GED (scoring 100%) and SAT (scoring again very
high).
She is currently waiting to enroll in the Fire Academy a total switch
from her original goal of a lingustics major studying in Germany.
Life happens.
This same daughter has a manic depressive father who made our lives
living hell. In Kindergarten she learned to ask who was picking her
up. If I said your father, she would double over and claim she was
too sick for school. (Her father refused to watch a sick child.)
I never made her go if she didn't want to. I never made her do
school work if she didn't want to. She was always over the alloted
missed days by October until 8th grade when she decided on her own,
the classes were too hard to miss class and keep up.
This daughter of mine makes me proud to call her mine.
As for my son, we started out in public Kindergarten ~ then
homeschooled the rest of that year. We put him in gifted 1st.
that lasted 15 days. We tried private. That lasted till Nov of 2nd
grade. Then I tried 'school at home' which totally sucked.
Now he unschools and is extremely happy. I have told him anytime he
wishes to try school again, he can. And I'll pull him right back out
if he changes his mind. So far, he has NO desire to ever return and
that's just fine with me.
Vicki
I'm coming at this from the other end, meaning that my daughter is 17
and never (un)homeschooled. (I currently unschool my ds 9)
When I divorced her dad, I had to use daycare. Thank God I found a
good one. Then she did public Kindergarten, private first through
fifth, then gifted 6th- IB, AP high school only to 'drop-out' in
11th, when her two best friends were killed this last spring. She
has since taken her GED (scoring 100%) and SAT (scoring again very
high).
She is currently waiting to enroll in the Fire Academy a total switch
from her original goal of a lingustics major studying in Germany.
Life happens.
This same daughter has a manic depressive father who made our lives
living hell. In Kindergarten she learned to ask who was picking her
up. If I said your father, she would double over and claim she was
too sick for school. (Her father refused to watch a sick child.)
I never made her go if she didn't want to. I never made her do
school work if she didn't want to. She was always over the alloted
missed days by October until 8th grade when she decided on her own,
the classes were too hard to miss class and keep up.
This daughter of mine makes me proud to call her mine.
As for my son, we started out in public Kindergarten ~ then
homeschooled the rest of that year. We put him in gifted 1st.
that lasted 15 days. We tried private. That lasted till Nov of 2nd
grade. Then I tried 'school at home' which totally sucked.
Now he unschools and is extremely happy. I have told him anytime he
wishes to try school again, he can. And I'll pull him right back out
if he changes his mind. So far, he has NO desire to ever return and
that's just fine with me.
Vicki