Do as I say....
[email protected]
Duncan (11) is not his best with children younger than he is. He's
generally not mean---he just steers clear and avoids them when
possible. I understand: when I was his age, I really didn't care for
small ones either. Cameron (19), on the other hand, has always loved
babies and young children---even when he was a baby, he loved babies!
Not Duncan. So when we visit folks with small kids, on the way, we talk
a LOT about interacting with them and how to respond and that he should
come ot me when one of the littler children starts to bug him. It's
something we *plan* for.
So...last month, we were visiting friends a long, long way away. Lots
of driving (25 hours!), different water, local food, strange beds.
That's the set-up. <g>
We had already visited two nights with a family with two darling
children, five and 18 mos or so. Duncan handled himself well---staying
near me or reading a book quietly or playing a video game. I think the
five year old expected Duncan to be more of a playmate---and that's not
really Dunc's style, so I think he was a little disappointed that
Duncan wasn't willing to hang so much with him. But Duncan had fun on
the farm, and he read his first book there from cover-to-cover, so it
was a great experience!
So we journey on to our next home-away-from-home, but this family has
three children: 10, 12, and 14. Duncan knows them well, and gets along
with all of them. While we are there, we learn that another unschooling
family we know will be able to stop by and hang out with us for a few
days! (YAY!) They have three precious boys---I think they are three,
five, and seven.
Now I had spent a while talking Duncan about the first visit, but I had
completely forgotten to chat with him about this change in plans. I was
just excited to be able to see and visit with the other family.
I know, I know---a lot of build up...
So...I was in the kitchen, and Duncan was at the kitchen table. One of
the boys (I think it was the five year old) came up and was asking
Duncan questions about what he was doing (I think it was WOW). Duncan
snarled something not-so-nice.
That was not out of his mouth more than a split-second before I snapped
back LOUDLY and CLEARLY, "Duncan! He is *very* young, and he doesn't
necessarily understand...blah-blah-blah."
Anyone laughing out loud at the irony yet? <bwg>
Obviously, Duncan was hurt and embarrassed (moms were nearby watching
the whole thing). And yet I went on and on about how he doesn't handle
little kids well and how we'd *just* talked about this very thing,
and....
Well, I felt horrible. About a half-hour later, he called me into
another room to talk (*he* has to initiate this), and he told me how I
had done to him *exactly* what he had done to the other boy. He
couldn't have been more right.
We chatted in bed that night about how we each could have handled it
better. We thought of 3-4 ways he could have been nicer/better prepared
and of about 20-30 ways *I* could have responded better. <G> He's so
smart! <bwg>
It's really not that the list-owners have this all figured out. We
still struggle and screw up. One of our goals is to be better parents
each and every day. That was NOT one of my better moments. I can blame
being tired and hungry and out-of-sorts, but it's absolutely no
different than what my young child was going through.
He certainly deserves more empathy than I do---he has only eleven years
on this planet. I have 47 and *still* screw up.
Hopefully we can build on this and be better to each other. He's *very*
forgiving and generous with me!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
generally not mean---he just steers clear and avoids them when
possible. I understand: when I was his age, I really didn't care for
small ones either. Cameron (19), on the other hand, has always loved
babies and young children---even when he was a baby, he loved babies!
Not Duncan. So when we visit folks with small kids, on the way, we talk
a LOT about interacting with them and how to respond and that he should
come ot me when one of the littler children starts to bug him. It's
something we *plan* for.
So...last month, we were visiting friends a long, long way away. Lots
of driving (25 hours!), different water, local food, strange beds.
That's the set-up. <g>
We had already visited two nights with a family with two darling
children, five and 18 mos or so. Duncan handled himself well---staying
near me or reading a book quietly or playing a video game. I think the
five year old expected Duncan to be more of a playmate---and that's not
really Dunc's style, so I think he was a little disappointed that
Duncan wasn't willing to hang so much with him. But Duncan had fun on
the farm, and he read his first book there from cover-to-cover, so it
was a great experience!
So we journey on to our next home-away-from-home, but this family has
three children: 10, 12, and 14. Duncan knows them well, and gets along
with all of them. While we are there, we learn that another unschooling
family we know will be able to stop by and hang out with us for a few
days! (YAY!) They have three precious boys---I think they are three,
five, and seven.
Now I had spent a while talking Duncan about the first visit, but I had
completely forgotten to chat with him about this change in plans. I was
just excited to be able to see and visit with the other family.
I know, I know---a lot of build up...
So...I was in the kitchen, and Duncan was at the kitchen table. One of
the boys (I think it was the five year old) came up and was asking
Duncan questions about what he was doing (I think it was WOW). Duncan
snarled something not-so-nice.
That was not out of his mouth more than a split-second before I snapped
back LOUDLY and CLEARLY, "Duncan! He is *very* young, and he doesn't
necessarily understand...blah-blah-blah."
Anyone laughing out loud at the irony yet? <bwg>
Obviously, Duncan was hurt and embarrassed (moms were nearby watching
the whole thing). And yet I went on and on about how he doesn't handle
little kids well and how we'd *just* talked about this very thing,
and....
Well, I felt horrible. About a half-hour later, he called me into
another room to talk (*he* has to initiate this), and he told me how I
had done to him *exactly* what he had done to the other boy. He
couldn't have been more right.
We chatted in bed that night about how we each could have handled it
better. We thought of 3-4 ways he could have been nicer/better prepared
and of about 20-30 ways *I* could have responded better. <G> He's so
smart! <bwg>
It's really not that the list-owners have this all figured out. We
still struggle and screw up. One of our goals is to be better parents
each and every day. That was NOT one of my better moments. I can blame
being tired and hungry and out-of-sorts, but it's absolutely no
different than what my young child was going through.
He certainly deserves more empathy than I do---he has only eleven years
on this planet. I have 47 and *still* screw up.
Hopefully we can build on this and be better to each other. He's *very*
forgiving and generous with me!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Emilie
Thank you Kelly,
I found this message really helpful. I would like to ask the other
'senior' radical unschoolers out there about what issues they
struggle with? And what mistakes they have recently made? I often
fall into feeling like when people here say that they are ' truly
living RU ' that these kinds of struggles are no longer part of their
day to day reality. This makes it harder for me to relate as these
types of mistakes *are* my day to day reality. I am not talking about
justifying ruley or schooley behavior, just examples of how you may
fall off the horse and get back on. I like hearing that your son
called you on it. If he hadn't i.e., he was much younger and not as
able to articulate his experience as well, would you have clued in as
fast? What would have brought this error or one like it to your awareness?
Sometimes I feel like a broken record to my daughters apologizing for
my behavior and trying to brainstorm about how we can 'do it better
next time'. Sometimes I feel like I am losing all credibility as a
parent because I keep messing up like this. They are gracious and
forgiving, but they pretty much have to be, as they are all very
young and rely on me for everything. I spent most of my adult life
unlearning the negative parenting I grew up with by studying
education and child development. I have spent most of my life as a
parent unlearning the schooley aspects of my education and teaching
career. Baby steps, I guess. My mother's voice is still in my head
and pops out occasionally with sarcasm and desperation. My teacher's
voice is there too, sometimes cheerfully blurting out "good job!"
after my kids clean up or share or burp even! (the littlest one has
only just left infancy) :-) . Ahh, the quest for authenticity... thoughts?
Emilie
At 07:28 PM 05/08/2007, you wrote:
I found this message really helpful. I would like to ask the other
'senior' radical unschoolers out there about what issues they
struggle with? And what mistakes they have recently made? I often
fall into feeling like when people here say that they are ' truly
living RU ' that these kinds of struggles are no longer part of their
day to day reality. This makes it harder for me to relate as these
types of mistakes *are* my day to day reality. I am not talking about
justifying ruley or schooley behavior, just examples of how you may
fall off the horse and get back on. I like hearing that your son
called you on it. If he hadn't i.e., he was much younger and not as
able to articulate his experience as well, would you have clued in as
fast? What would have brought this error or one like it to your awareness?
Sometimes I feel like a broken record to my daughters apologizing for
my behavior and trying to brainstorm about how we can 'do it better
next time'. Sometimes I feel like I am losing all credibility as a
parent because I keep messing up like this. They are gracious and
forgiving, but they pretty much have to be, as they are all very
young and rely on me for everything. I spent most of my adult life
unlearning the negative parenting I grew up with by studying
education and child development. I have spent most of my life as a
parent unlearning the schooley aspects of my education and teaching
career. Baby steps, I guess. My mother's voice is still in my head
and pops out occasionally with sarcasm and desperation. My teacher's
voice is there too, sometimes cheerfully blurting out "good job!"
after my kids clean up or share or burp even! (the littlest one has
only just left infancy) :-) . Ahh, the quest for authenticity... thoughts?
Emilie
At 07:28 PM 05/08/2007, you wrote:
>That was not out of his mouth more than a split-second before I snapped[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>back LOUDLY and CLEARLY, "Duncan! He is *very* young, and he doesn't
>necessarily understand...blah-blah-blah."
>
>Anyone laughing out loud at the irony yet? <bwg>
>
>Obviously, Duncan was hurt and embarrassed (moms were nearby watching
>the whole thing). And yet I went on and on about how he doesn't handle
>little kids well and how we'd *just* talked about this very thing,
>and....
>
>Well, I felt horrible. About a half-hour later, he called me into
>another room to talk (*he* has to initiate this), and he told me how I
>had done to him *exactly* what he had done to the other boy. He
>couldn't have been more right.
>
>We chatted in bed that night about how we each could have handled it
>better. We thought of 3-4 ways he could have been nicer/better prepared
>and of about 20-30 ways *I* could have responded better. <G> He's so
>smart! <bwg>
>
>It's really not that the list-owners have this all figured out. We
>still struggle and screw up. One of our goals is to be better parents
>each and every day. That was NOT one of my better moments. I can blame
>being tired and hungry and out-of-sorts, but it's absolutely no
>different than what my young child was going through.
>
>He certainly deserves more empathy than I do---he has only eleven years
>on this planet. I have 47 and *still* screw up.
>
>Hopefully we can build on this and be better to each other. He's *very*
>forgiving and generous with me!
>
>~Kelly
>
>Kelly Lovejoy
>Conference Coordinator
>Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
><http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org>http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>__________________________________________________________
>AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
>from AOL at AOL.com.
>
[email protected]
Kelly that was such a good post and one I can identify with also.
My son ,almost 11, is *less than* patient with young ones and ones that are
less capable than him and it is something we are working on.
In the beginning, I would be so upset because of what *others* must think of
him when he wasn't too nice , and never trying to see things from his side
Most recently there was a 5 yr old over our house with his grandfather . Just
my son was around. In the past I probably would have told him <<G>> to go
play with him and make him feel comfortable, etc.
But I didn't say a word. And within a half hour, Chad said "Hey Kyle want to
see something cool? Come with me." He showed him his fort and then was
pitching balls to him and then playing hoops.
WOW
All in good time I guess, and more importantly in THEIR OWN TIME.
~marcia
HarmonyWoodsFarm
my blog: _http://www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony_
(http://www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony)
Duncan (11) is not his best with children younger than he is. He's
generally not mean---he just steers clear and avoids them when
possible. I understand: when I was his age, I really didn't care for
small ones either. Cameron (19), on the other hand, has always loved
babies and young children---even when he was a baby, he loved babies!
Not Duncan. So when we visit folks with small kids, on the way, we talk
a LOT about interacting with them and how to respond and that he should
come ot me when one of the littler children starts to bug him. It's
something we *plan* for.
So...last month, we were visiting friends a long, long way away. Lots
of driving (25 hours!), different water, local food, strange beds.
That's the set-up. <g>
We had already visited two nights with a family with two darling
children, five and 18 mos or so. Duncan handled himself well---staying
near me or reading a book quietly or playing a video game. I think the
five year old expected Duncan to be more of a playmate---and that's not
really Dunc's style, so I think he was a little disappointed that
Duncan wasn't willing to hang so much with him. But Duncan had fun on
the farm, and he read his first book there from cover-to-cover, so it
was a great experience!
So we journey on to our next home-away-from-So we journey on to our ne
three children: 10, 12, and 14. Duncan knows them well, and gets along
with all of them. While we are there, we learn that another unschooling
family we know will be able to stop by and hang out with us for a few
days! (YAY!) They have three precious boys---I think they are three,
five, and seven.
Now I had spent a while talking Duncan about the first visit, but I had
completely forgotten to chat with him about this change in plans. I was
just excited to be able to see and visit with the other family.
I know, I know---a lot of build up...
So...I was in the kitchen, and Duncan was at the kitchen table. One of
the boys (I think it was the five year old) came up and was asking
Duncan questions about what he was doing (I think it was WOW). Duncan
snarled something not-so-nice.
That was not out of his mouth more than a split-second before I snapped
back LOUDLY and CLEARLY, "Duncan! He is *very* young, and he doesn't
necessarily understand..necessarilynecess
Anyone laughing out loud at the irony yet? <bwg>
Obviously, Duncan was hurt and embarrassed (moms were nearby watching
the whole thing). And yet I went on and on about how he doesn't handle
little kids well and how we'd *just* talked about this very thing,
and....
Well, I felt horrible. About a half-hour later, he called me into
another room to talk (*he* has to initiate this), and he told me how I
had done to him *exactly* what he had done to the other boy. He
couldn't have been more right.
We chatted in bed that night about how we each could have handled it
better. We thought of 3-4 ways he could have been nicer/better prepared
and of about 20-30 ways *I* could have responded better. <G> He's so
smart! <bwg>
It's really not that the list-owners have this all figured out. We
still struggle and screw up. One of our goals is to be better parents
each and every day. That was NOT one of my better moments. I can blame
being tired and hungry and out-of-sorts, but it's absolutely no
different than what my young child was going through.
He certainly deserves more empathy than I do---he has only eleven years
on this planet. I have 47 and *still* screw up.
Hopefully we can build on this and be better to each other. He's *very*
forgiving and generous with me!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
_http://www.LiveandLhttp://www.Livehtt_
(http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/)
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son ,almost 11, is *less than* patient with young ones and ones that are
less capable than him and it is something we are working on.
In the beginning, I would be so upset because of what *others* must think of
him when he wasn't too nice , and never trying to see things from his side
Most recently there was a 5 yr old over our house with his grandfather . Just
my son was around. In the past I probably would have told him <<G>> to go
play with him and make him feel comfortable, etc.
But I didn't say a word. And within a half hour, Chad said "Hey Kyle want to
see something cool? Come with me." He showed him his fort and then was
pitching balls to him and then playing hoops.
WOW
All in good time I guess, and more importantly in THEIR OWN TIME.
~marcia
HarmonyWoodsFarm
my blog: _http://www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony_
(http://www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony)
Duncan (11) is not his best with children younger than he is. He's
generally not mean---he just steers clear and avoids them when
possible. I understand: when I was his age, I really didn't care for
small ones either. Cameron (19), on the other hand, has always loved
babies and young children---even when he was a baby, he loved babies!
Not Duncan. So when we visit folks with small kids, on the way, we talk
a LOT about interacting with them and how to respond and that he should
come ot me when one of the littler children starts to bug him. It's
something we *plan* for.
So...last month, we were visiting friends a long, long way away. Lots
of driving (25 hours!), different water, local food, strange beds.
That's the set-up. <g>
We had already visited two nights with a family with two darling
children, five and 18 mos or so. Duncan handled himself well---staying
near me or reading a book quietly or playing a video game. I think the
five year old expected Duncan to be more of a playmate---and that's not
really Dunc's style, so I think he was a little disappointed that
Duncan wasn't willing to hang so much with him. But Duncan had fun on
the farm, and he read his first book there from cover-to-cover, so it
was a great experience!
So we journey on to our next home-away-from-So we journey on to our ne
three children: 10, 12, and 14. Duncan knows them well, and gets along
with all of them. While we are there, we learn that another unschooling
family we know will be able to stop by and hang out with us for a few
days! (YAY!) They have three precious boys---I think they are three,
five, and seven.
Now I had spent a while talking Duncan about the first visit, but I had
completely forgotten to chat with him about this change in plans. I was
just excited to be able to see and visit with the other family.
I know, I know---a lot of build up...
So...I was in the kitchen, and Duncan was at the kitchen table. One of
the boys (I think it was the five year old) came up and was asking
Duncan questions about what he was doing (I think it was WOW). Duncan
snarled something not-so-nice.
That was not out of his mouth more than a split-second before I snapped
back LOUDLY and CLEARLY, "Duncan! He is *very* young, and he doesn't
necessarily understand..necessarilynecess
Anyone laughing out loud at the irony yet? <bwg>
Obviously, Duncan was hurt and embarrassed (moms were nearby watching
the whole thing). And yet I went on and on about how he doesn't handle
little kids well and how we'd *just* talked about this very thing,
and....
Well, I felt horrible. About a half-hour later, he called me into
another room to talk (*he* has to initiate this), and he told me how I
had done to him *exactly* what he had done to the other boy. He
couldn't have been more right.
We chatted in bed that night about how we each could have handled it
better. We thought of 3-4 ways he could have been nicer/better prepared
and of about 20-30 ways *I* could have responded better. <G> He's so
smart! <bwg>
It's really not that the list-owners have this all figured out. We
still struggle and screw up. One of our goals is to be better parents
each and every day. That was NOT one of my better moments. I can blame
being tired and hungry and out-of-sorts, but it's absolutely no
different than what my young child was going through.
He certainly deserves more empathy than I do---he has only eleven years
on this planet. I have 47 and *still* screw up.
Hopefully we can build on this and be better to each other. He's *very*
forgiving and generous with me!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
_http://www.LiveandLhttp://www.Livehtt_
(http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/)
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Heyman
Posted by: "Emilie"
<mailto:erugard@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Do%20as%20I%20say%2E%2E%2E%2E>
erugard@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/breathemama> breathemama
Sun Aug 5, 2007 9:25 pm (PST)
I would like to ask the other
'senior' radical unschoolers out there about what issues they
struggle with? And what mistakes they have recently made
Funny you should ask.
I struggle with feeling like enough. My 9yo dd is full of energy and a
million ideas. I can not (or we cannot) do everything she wants to do. I
try to focus on the idea that everything can happen just not all at the same
time.but so many more ideas get dropped than followed through. I focus on
the glory of her imagination and her intentions (most ideas are creative
arts or humanitarian endeavors.) But I do struggle with feeling like I am
enough.
My recent mistake. Last week my sister was visiting. We were at lunch in
city with grandmother and sister and kids. My 9yo dd is a self proclaimed
vegan and my sister insisted she is not a vegan because she still eats ice
cream (the last hold out of dairy). My dd argued with aunt that she is a
vegan while aunt continued to insist she was not. My 9yo got quite. While
I calmly defended her right to call herself a vegan to my sister I hadn't
realized the affect this had on 9yo until 14yo dd nudged me under table and
nodded toward 9yo who was sitting to my right in tears - very angry, very
hurt. I comforted her - but that certainly wasn't enough. WE've been
talking about this all week as 9yo dd now has experience of her aunt as
being unsafe - translate - disrespectful. DD asked me to talk to my sister
when we saw her next. I said to dd that i would but I wasn't sure that aunt
would understand enough to make an adjustment that would help to heal their
damaged relationship. I was right. When I saw my sis at end of week she
acknowledged that she realized dd was still upset with her and when she
asked me what she could do about it.I hesitated. I didn't say to her -you
could apologize for not respecting her.I didn't say - gee, you are not
really an actor because you spend more time working at Starbucks and
teaching.I didn't say she needs you to acknowledge who she is and not
devalue her opinion of herself. I didn't get angry at my sister for hurting
my dd. I hesitated because knowing my sister and how she is with her step
son I didn't think my suggestion of making an apology would be meaningful to
her - wouldn't be understood. I value my relationship with my sister and
didn't want to offend her at the expense of not well defending my dd. And
before I could come up with a response that I hoped could be heard she
shrugged me off and said, never mind, it would work out.
My family of origin doesn't work things out. My current family stays in the
moment and works things out. When I am with my family of origin I am not
the person I would like to be. It is stressful and yet I don't want to
avoid them totally (just sometimes <g>). One thing I struggle with is being
'too' nice and not fully expressing my anger directly at the source. In
writing this I think perhaps i can write a letter to my sister and explain
more fully the possibilities of mending with dd.
I just read this to dd and she wants me to clarify that she hasn't had ice
cream in a while. I also asked her if she wants me to write letter to
sister and she responded by saying, "you can if you want to.." but not
now.she wants me to do something with her.
Lisa Heyman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<mailto:erugard@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Do%20as%20I%20say%2E%2E%2E%2E>
erugard@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/breathemama> breathemama
Sun Aug 5, 2007 9:25 pm (PST)
I would like to ask the other
'senior' radical unschoolers out there about what issues they
struggle with? And what mistakes they have recently made
Funny you should ask.
I struggle with feeling like enough. My 9yo dd is full of energy and a
million ideas. I can not (or we cannot) do everything she wants to do. I
try to focus on the idea that everything can happen just not all at the same
time.but so many more ideas get dropped than followed through. I focus on
the glory of her imagination and her intentions (most ideas are creative
arts or humanitarian endeavors.) But I do struggle with feeling like I am
enough.
My recent mistake. Last week my sister was visiting. We were at lunch in
city with grandmother and sister and kids. My 9yo dd is a self proclaimed
vegan and my sister insisted she is not a vegan because she still eats ice
cream (the last hold out of dairy). My dd argued with aunt that she is a
vegan while aunt continued to insist she was not. My 9yo got quite. While
I calmly defended her right to call herself a vegan to my sister I hadn't
realized the affect this had on 9yo until 14yo dd nudged me under table and
nodded toward 9yo who was sitting to my right in tears - very angry, very
hurt. I comforted her - but that certainly wasn't enough. WE've been
talking about this all week as 9yo dd now has experience of her aunt as
being unsafe - translate - disrespectful. DD asked me to talk to my sister
when we saw her next. I said to dd that i would but I wasn't sure that aunt
would understand enough to make an adjustment that would help to heal their
damaged relationship. I was right. When I saw my sis at end of week she
acknowledged that she realized dd was still upset with her and when she
asked me what she could do about it.I hesitated. I didn't say to her -you
could apologize for not respecting her.I didn't say - gee, you are not
really an actor because you spend more time working at Starbucks and
teaching.I didn't say she needs you to acknowledge who she is and not
devalue her opinion of herself. I didn't get angry at my sister for hurting
my dd. I hesitated because knowing my sister and how she is with her step
son I didn't think my suggestion of making an apology would be meaningful to
her - wouldn't be understood. I value my relationship with my sister and
didn't want to offend her at the expense of not well defending my dd. And
before I could come up with a response that I hoped could be heard she
shrugged me off and said, never mind, it would work out.
My family of origin doesn't work things out. My current family stays in the
moment and works things out. When I am with my family of origin I am not
the person I would like to be. It is stressful and yet I don't want to
avoid them totally (just sometimes <g>). One thing I struggle with is being
'too' nice and not fully expressing my anger directly at the source. In
writing this I think perhaps i can write a letter to my sister and explain
more fully the possibilities of mending with dd.
I just read this to dd and she wants me to clarify that she hasn't had ice
cream in a while. I also asked her if she wants me to write letter to
sister and she responded by saying, "you can if you want to.." but not
now.she wants me to do something with her.
Lisa Heyman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie <erugard@...>
Thank you Kelly,
I found this message really helpful. I would like to ask the other
'senior' radical unschoolers out there about what issues they
struggle with? And what mistakes they have recently made? I often
fall into feeling like when people here say that they are ' truly
living RU ' that these kinds of struggles are no longer part of their
day to day reality.
-=-=-=-
I always hesitate to bring the screw-ups here. I realize that my life
can seem sooo perfect when I write. But I'm usually not writing about
what's happening with me *now* because I'm answering questions about
others' situations and giving my advice based on something has has
worked for me in a similar situation in the past. Meaning: I WAS ONCE
THERE TOO.
It's not all rosy and cheerful here 100% of the time. But it IS almost!
Maybe 95%? But it's taken years and years of doing it and fixing it for
it to get like this. Yes, due to hunger and lack of sleep and illness
and really odd situations, things can revert back to pre-unschooling
days---but really only momentarily. But due to the large amount of work
that Ben and I have put into our parenting, *most* things can be
remedied with a deep breath and a little hard thinking (as opposed to
lashing out and using the very few tools we inherited from our parents,
like spanking and shaming). The times it happens now are few and far
between.
Plus, my children are 19 and 11---that makes a HUGE difference! The
large age gap and their advanced ages make many of the issues here
irrelevant in my life (no wee ones, none close in age). And mine are
pretty damned self-reliant! I mean---11 and 19? Other than driving
Duncan around, they are capable of getting and doing whatever they
need! There's no sibling rivalry here. No one's spilling something he
can't mop up. There's no more writing on walls (other than in our music
room over the garage, where we ASK that folks write on the walls! <G>)
or potty training or torturing of kittens or running outside naked or
not cleaning up the craft area---these things just don't exist in our
lives any more.
In a few years (if you stop having babies! <g>), your lives will seem
more like mine.
But I was once where you are are now! I had a child in school through
sixth grade, was room-mom, and was on the Parents' Board. I parented a
lot like my mother (not *as* bad, but still!).
Some families here started out as gentle parents. Some got the message
before their kids were born that there was a better way. And many of
you are starting EARLY compared to me (when Cam was already 13)! *Your*
kids are sooo lucky!
But I KNOW that our lives seem peachy-keen. ANd truly they ARE! I know
many of the regular posters here in real life. I've been to their
homes. I know how they are with their kids. ANd I know that they are
REAL and that, even though it's NOT always easy, they work *very* hard
to make their lives pleasant and peaceful and joyful. And I know how
easy it is to be with them BECAUSE of how they are with their kids!
I've spent time with Ren and Deb and Rue and their kids. I was just up
in Minnesota with Alex and Kelli and Karen---and in Florida with Gail
this last month. I got to visit Zenmomma's home in Oregon and spent
LOTS of time with Mercedes and Sharon there. We had a blast in Hershey
Park with the Traaseths and Kreams and Heyman-Gauchmans. We stopped by
Danielle's house for lunch and to play with chickens. I've dropped in
om Mindy twice---just barely announced. I threw a large house concert
for Amy Steinberg at my home in March---65 unschoolers showed up for
2-3 days (and not ONCE was the TV turned on)! <BWG> Aside form many of
the names already mentioned, Kathryn and Anne and several unschoolers
I'd never yet met were there. I MAKE time for/with these people because
of how fabulous their lives are! It's easy to share a life like that!
ANd it's sooo easy to be a part of such a life!
It's not that it's easy to DO. It's just that it BECOMES easier the
more you DO it. It takes WORK to be this easy! <bwg> Does that make
sense?
If I believed in "blessings," I would say that our lives are blessed.
But it's really that we have CHOSEN to change the way we parent and
view our children's lives. We SEE them as whole and perfect, and we
know that they are wanting to be the BEST Cameron and Duncan they can
be *at all times*. If they aren't, it's not for lack of trying: it's
just that they don't have the tools *at that moment* to deal with that
particular situation. It's my job to help them acquire those tools. (As
I search for a few of my own---as seen in the previous post that
prompted this one! <G>)
So, although it seems that there are never problems at my house, it's
just that we have a REALLY big, full toolbox here, and it's getting
bigger and bigger every day. It was not always that way---but it IS
possible! <G> Our crappy moments are just fewer and further between.
<g> When they do happen, they are smaller and more quickly and easily
fixable than in the past---many barely worthy of mention---that's WHY
they aren't much mentioned!
If, after seven years, you are still struggling, call me! <G> But I bet
you'll all be just fine. It just doesn't happen overnight. It's a
process.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: Emilie <erugard@...>
Thank you Kelly,
I found this message really helpful. I would like to ask the other
'senior' radical unschoolers out there about what issues they
struggle with? And what mistakes they have recently made? I often
fall into feeling like when people here say that they are ' truly
living RU ' that these kinds of struggles are no longer part of their
day to day reality.
-=-=-=-
I always hesitate to bring the screw-ups here. I realize that my life
can seem sooo perfect when I write. But I'm usually not writing about
what's happening with me *now* because I'm answering questions about
others' situations and giving my advice based on something has has
worked for me in a similar situation in the past. Meaning: I WAS ONCE
THERE TOO.
It's not all rosy and cheerful here 100% of the time. But it IS almost!
Maybe 95%? But it's taken years and years of doing it and fixing it for
it to get like this. Yes, due to hunger and lack of sleep and illness
and really odd situations, things can revert back to pre-unschooling
days---but really only momentarily. But due to the large amount of work
that Ben and I have put into our parenting, *most* things can be
remedied with a deep breath and a little hard thinking (as opposed to
lashing out and using the very few tools we inherited from our parents,
like spanking and shaming). The times it happens now are few and far
between.
Plus, my children are 19 and 11---that makes a HUGE difference! The
large age gap and their advanced ages make many of the issues here
irrelevant in my life (no wee ones, none close in age). And mine are
pretty damned self-reliant! I mean---11 and 19? Other than driving
Duncan around, they are capable of getting and doing whatever they
need! There's no sibling rivalry here. No one's spilling something he
can't mop up. There's no more writing on walls (other than in our music
room over the garage, where we ASK that folks write on the walls! <G>)
or potty training or torturing of kittens or running outside naked or
not cleaning up the craft area---these things just don't exist in our
lives any more.
In a few years (if you stop having babies! <g>), your lives will seem
more like mine.
But I was once where you are are now! I had a child in school through
sixth grade, was room-mom, and was on the Parents' Board. I parented a
lot like my mother (not *as* bad, but still!).
Some families here started out as gentle parents. Some got the message
before their kids were born that there was a better way. And many of
you are starting EARLY compared to me (when Cam was already 13)! *Your*
kids are sooo lucky!
But I KNOW that our lives seem peachy-keen. ANd truly they ARE! I know
many of the regular posters here in real life. I've been to their
homes. I know how they are with their kids. ANd I know that they are
REAL and that, even though it's NOT always easy, they work *very* hard
to make their lives pleasant and peaceful and joyful. And I know how
easy it is to be with them BECAUSE of how they are with their kids!
I've spent time with Ren and Deb and Rue and their kids. I was just up
in Minnesota with Alex and Kelli and Karen---and in Florida with Gail
this last month. I got to visit Zenmomma's home in Oregon and spent
LOTS of time with Mercedes and Sharon there. We had a blast in Hershey
Park with the Traaseths and Kreams and Heyman-Gauchmans. We stopped by
Danielle's house for lunch and to play with chickens. I've dropped in
om Mindy twice---just barely announced. I threw a large house concert
for Amy Steinberg at my home in March---65 unschoolers showed up for
2-3 days (and not ONCE was the TV turned on)! <BWG> Aside form many of
the names already mentioned, Kathryn and Anne and several unschoolers
I'd never yet met were there. I MAKE time for/with these people because
of how fabulous their lives are! It's easy to share a life like that!
ANd it's sooo easy to be a part of such a life!
It's not that it's easy to DO. It's just that it BECOMES easier the
more you DO it. It takes WORK to be this easy! <bwg> Does that make
sense?
If I believed in "blessings," I would say that our lives are blessed.
But it's really that we have CHOSEN to change the way we parent and
view our children's lives. We SEE them as whole and perfect, and we
know that they are wanting to be the BEST Cameron and Duncan they can
be *at all times*. If they aren't, it's not for lack of trying: it's
just that they don't have the tools *at that moment* to deal with that
particular situation. It's my job to help them acquire those tools. (As
I search for a few of my own---as seen in the previous post that
prompted this one! <G>)
So, although it seems that there are never problems at my house, it's
just that we have a REALLY big, full toolbox here, and it's getting
bigger and bigger every day. It was not always that way---but it IS
possible! <G> Our crappy moments are just fewer and further between.
<g> When they do happen, they are smaller and more quickly and easily
fixable than in the past---many barely worthy of mention---that's WHY
they aren't much mentioned!
If, after seven years, you are still struggling, call me! <G> But I bet
you'll all be just fine. It just doesn't happen overnight. It's a
process.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/2007 4:29:35 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
He certainly deserves more empathy than I do---he has only eleven years
on this planet. I have 47 and *still* screw up.
Hopefully we can build on this and be better to each other. He's *very*
forgiving and generous with me!
____________________________________________________________________
You know, K? I'm so glad you posted that story! Its the journey, not the
destination. Thank you!!!
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
He certainly deserves more empathy than I do---he has only eleven years
on this planet. I have 47 and *still* screw up.
Hopefully we can build on this and be better to each other. He's *very*
forgiving and generous with me!
____________________________________________________________________
You know, K? I'm so glad you posted that story! Its the journey, not the
destination. Thank you!!!
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
Ok Kelly,
So now I have to tell my story :)
An unschooling mom and her son were here about a month ago for a few nights on the way to other friend's home and it was wonderful. I was so excited to meet them. They are fabulous.
My DH loved them too. But...
I am not used to having any unschooled kids over and I confess I hold other kids to the same "parenting style" they are used at home.
Ok I do better than the parents but still relate to my kids one way and to others another way most of the time. I say "no nephew you cannot hit my cat" because I have tried and unschooling approach and for the most part they just will keep doing until their mom scream and threatens to leave or else. I do say it in a nicer way than mom but.....
So this unschooled awesome kid stayed over and one of the nights he slept in my ds's room ( ds still sleeps with us).
The room has a TV with Satellite and DVR. Behind the wall where the TV is my room and there` is only a sheetrock piece on an old window ( my room is a more recent addition to an old farm house).
So his mom said " You can watch your TV show up there" and I blurted out. "Oh No It will wake up the baby in my room because you can hear everything thru that piece of sheetrock"
I said no and did not even think anything of it.
A week or so later I was playing in the room with my ds while the baby slept in the other room. I asked him to be quiet and not make noise ( And that is hard for a 5 year old I know).
He was awesome and tried to be very quiet. Usually we play downstairs if dd is sleeping but ds wanted to play upstairs in his room. Than it hit me!!! I am sure the other unschooled kid that was here would have done the same and would have kept the TV low and would have been no problem. Or we could have moved the TV closer to the bed and farther from the wall or... see it did not need to be a NO.
What a "ding bag" I am. This kid was extremely polite and considerate and a really pretty amazing 11 y o boy.
I am just so not used to it. I called his mom that moment and apologized to her and him. Hey guys again I am sorry I say it again. I could have worked out a way to have the TV on. It was just one of those "automatics-less-than-mindful-NO".
The worse is that it took me more than a week to even realize that I had said no as a knee jerk reaction.
Looking back I am sure I just did not want to have to go in and nurse the baby and settle her back to sleep because "I" wanted to chat with the guests.
So much I still have to work on. I get everything in theory but I still fail in practice many many times and at least a few times a day on bad days.
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So now I have to tell my story :)
An unschooling mom and her son were here about a month ago for a few nights on the way to other friend's home and it was wonderful. I was so excited to meet them. They are fabulous.
My DH loved them too. But...
I am not used to having any unschooled kids over and I confess I hold other kids to the same "parenting style" they are used at home.
Ok I do better than the parents but still relate to my kids one way and to others another way most of the time. I say "no nephew you cannot hit my cat" because I have tried and unschooling approach and for the most part they just will keep doing until their mom scream and threatens to leave or else. I do say it in a nicer way than mom but.....
So this unschooled awesome kid stayed over and one of the nights he slept in my ds's room ( ds still sleeps with us).
The room has a TV with Satellite and DVR. Behind the wall where the TV is my room and there` is only a sheetrock piece on an old window ( my room is a more recent addition to an old farm house).
So his mom said " You can watch your TV show up there" and I blurted out. "Oh No It will wake up the baby in my room because you can hear everything thru that piece of sheetrock"
I said no and did not even think anything of it.
A week or so later I was playing in the room with my ds while the baby slept in the other room. I asked him to be quiet and not make noise ( And that is hard for a 5 year old I know).
He was awesome and tried to be very quiet. Usually we play downstairs if dd is sleeping but ds wanted to play upstairs in his room. Than it hit me!!! I am sure the other unschooled kid that was here would have done the same and would have kept the TV low and would have been no problem. Or we could have moved the TV closer to the bed and farther from the wall or... see it did not need to be a NO.
What a "ding bag" I am. This kid was extremely polite and considerate and a really pretty amazing 11 y o boy.
I am just so not used to it. I called his mom that moment and apologized to her and him. Hey guys again I am sorry I say it again. I could have worked out a way to have the TV on. It was just one of those "automatics-less-than-mindful-NO".
The worse is that it took me more than a week to even realize that I had said no as a knee jerk reaction.
Looking back I am sure I just did not want to have to go in and nurse the baby and settle her back to sleep because "I" wanted to chat with the guests.
So much I still have to work on. I get everything in theory but I still fail in practice many many times and at least a few times a day on bad days.
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Emilie <erugard@...> wrote:
some other, very useful, social skills when I'm in these sorts of
situations. Doesn't make me feel any less uncomfortable in the
moment, though :P
terribly articulate - she was, however, capable of expressing
herself in other ways. It all came down to me paying attention to
her behaviors responding to them, and that's something I was working
on anyway. There's a lot to be said for willingness to "try try
again" on the part of parents ;)
On the flip side of this, we recently had a guest who didn't listen
to Morgan even when she was being her most varbally expressive. It
was sort of shocking to me to see another adult flat-out trivialize
her complaints when he did something she found inappropriate, and
then refuse to appologise to her on the grounds that he was the
adult. He won't be invited back.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
>> Sometimes I feel like a broken record to my daughters apologizingfor
> my behavior and trying to brainstorm about how we can 'do itbetter
> next time'. Sometimes I feel like I am losing all credibility as aI like to think I'm modeling a different kind of problem-solving and
> parent because I keep messing up like this.
some other, very useful, social skills when I'm in these sorts of
situations. Doesn't make me feel any less uncomfortable in the
moment, though :P
>I like hearing that your sonas
> called you on it. If he hadn't i.e., he was much younger and not
> able to articulate his experience as well, would you have clued inas
> fast?Well, I can't speak for Kelly, but until about a year ago, Mo wasn't
terribly articulate - she was, however, capable of expressing
herself in other ways. It all came down to me paying attention to
her behaviors responding to them, and that's something I was working
on anyway. There's a lot to be said for willingness to "try try
again" on the part of parents ;)
On the flip side of this, we recently had a guest who didn't listen
to Morgan even when she was being her most varbally expressive. It
was sort of shocking to me to see another adult flat-out trivialize
her complaints when he did something she found inappropriate, and
then refuse to appologise to her on the grounds that he was the
adult. He won't be invited back.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
--- In [email protected], Emilie <erugard@...> wrote:\
as able to articulate his experience as well, would you have clued in
as fast?
-=-=-=-=-
Sorry I missed this one the first time around.
Duncan's never been one to have trouble expressing himself! <g> Now he
just has a bigger vocabulary! <G>
Eyes filled with tears or avoiding my eyes or a direct glare would be
dead give-aways! Even a sad look would be pretty obvious.
I think we all know when our children are not happy. He's just old
enough now to tell me point blank what a creep I was. Also---I think
it's because he's been given the opportunity to express himself. As
verbal as I was, I don't think I would have stood up for myself like
that!
Duncan has had the good fortune of being the second child after a long
gap, so we're more patient and more..."seasoned"...parents than we were
with Cameron. Cameron was always very compliant, but some of that
compliance could have been just knowing that there wasn't a way
out---he just accepted things. But that's his personality too! Duncan
won't accept things unless he can be assured that there's a plausible
reason---and even then, he sometimes needs proof. Different kids,
different needs. But we certainly *could* have been more attentive to
Cam; it's just that he wasn't as demanding, so we let things slide more.
But, yeah---he's let me know since he was really, really little when
I've treated him as "less than."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
--- In [email protected], Emilie <erugard@...> wrote:\
>I like hearing that your son called you on it. If he hadn't i.e., hewas much younger and not
as able to articulate his experience as well, would you have clued in
as fast?
-=-=-=-=-
Sorry I missed this one the first time around.
Duncan's never been one to have trouble expressing himself! <g> Now he
just has a bigger vocabulary! <G>
Eyes filled with tears or avoiding my eyes or a direct glare would be
dead give-aways! Even a sad look would be pretty obvious.
I think we all know when our children are not happy. He's just old
enough now to tell me point blank what a creep I was. Also---I think
it's because he's been given the opportunity to express himself. As
verbal as I was, I don't think I would have stood up for myself like
that!
Duncan has had the good fortune of being the second child after a long
gap, so we're more patient and more..."seasoned"...parents than we were
with Cameron. Cameron was always very compliant, but some of that
compliance could have been just knowing that there wasn't a way
out---he just accepted things. But that's his personality too! Duncan
won't accept things unless he can be assured that there's a plausible
reason---and even then, he sometimes needs proof. Different kids,
different needs. But we certainly *could* have been more attentive to
Cam; it's just that he wasn't as demanding, so we let things slide more.
But, yeah---he's let me know since he was really, really little when
I've treated him as "less than."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
My family of origin doesn't work things out. My current family stays in the
moment and works things out. When I am with my family of origin I am not
the person I would like to be. It is stressful and yet I don't want to
avoid them totally (just sometimes <g>). One thing I struggle with is being
'too' nice and not fully expressing my anger directly at the source. In
writing this I think perhaps i can write a letter to my sister and explain
more fully the possibilities of mending with dd.
I just read this to dd and she wants me to clarify that she hasn't had ice
cream in a while. I also asked her if she wants me to write letter to
sister and she responded by saying, "you can if you want to.." but not
now.she wants me to do something with her.
Lisa Heyman
Hey Lisa,
it sounds like a difficult situation. I often find it is my kids that highlight
those times when I don't feel safe to be real in my family of origin or my
hubbie's.
It sounds like your sister is/or was at a moment of authenticity there, asking
what she could do towards your daughter. I think you're right in not wanting
to spill the whole beans in one go re - all the areas you could point out,
but if you could explain briefly to her that your daughter was upset by feeling
so challenged in public and that you feel a nine year old needs a little
more understanding and that you really respect your sister wanting to make
amends, etc. it may be the first step in the process of a more authentic
relationship with your sister and maybe she could eventually be a safer aunty.
I really empathise with you, my kids have two aunties - one is safe, one
is very unpredictable due to her own chaotic sort of life and it can be confusing
and distressing for the kids to relate to her. I want to really encourage
you to both hold your ground AND try to build bridges where you can. Family
of Origin stuff is never easy, but it can be rewarding to break through in
those relationships too. it also gives our kids valuable watching experience,
as they see us set good boundaries without needing to stoop to a similiar
level as the one being hurtful. I often put it this way to my kids about
their unsafe aunty - after I have validated and comforted off in a corner
somewhere - that she (the aunty) is hurting inside about some of the choices
she makes and so she doesn't know how not to lash out at others.
I hope that helped and wasn't TOO pop-psychology for you, lol.
Cathy.
moment and works things out. When I am with my family of origin I am not
the person I would like to be. It is stressful and yet I don't want to
avoid them totally (just sometimes <g>). One thing I struggle with is being
'too' nice and not fully expressing my anger directly at the source. In
writing this I think perhaps i can write a letter to my sister and explain
more fully the possibilities of mending with dd.
I just read this to dd and she wants me to clarify that she hasn't had ice
cream in a while. I also asked her if she wants me to write letter to
sister and she responded by saying, "you can if you want to.." but not
now.she wants me to do something with her.
Lisa Heyman
Hey Lisa,
it sounds like a difficult situation. I often find it is my kids that highlight
those times when I don't feel safe to be real in my family of origin or my
hubbie's.
It sounds like your sister is/or was at a moment of authenticity there, asking
what she could do towards your daughter. I think you're right in not wanting
to spill the whole beans in one go re - all the areas you could point out,
but if you could explain briefly to her that your daughter was upset by feeling
so challenged in public and that you feel a nine year old needs a little
more understanding and that you really respect your sister wanting to make
amends, etc. it may be the first step in the process of a more authentic
relationship with your sister and maybe she could eventually be a safer aunty.
I really empathise with you, my kids have two aunties - one is safe, one
is very unpredictable due to her own chaotic sort of life and it can be confusing
and distressing for the kids to relate to her. I want to really encourage
you to both hold your ground AND try to build bridges where you can. Family
of Origin stuff is never easy, but it can be rewarding to break through in
those relationships too. it also gives our kids valuable watching experience,
as they see us set good boundaries without needing to stoop to a similiar
level as the one being hurtful. I often put it this way to my kids about
their unsafe aunty - after I have validated and comforted off in a corner
somewhere - that she (the aunty) is hurting inside about some of the choices
she makes and so she doesn't know how not to lash out at others.
I hope that helped and wasn't TOO pop-psychology for you, lol.
Cathy.
aud77rey
--- In [email protected], "Brian & Alexandra
Polikowsky" <polykow@...> wrote:
Audrey
Polikowsky" <polykow@...> wrote:
>...What a wonderful thing you did, even though so much time had passed.!!
> Ok Kelly,
> So now I have to tell my story :).....
>I called his mom ...
Audrey
aud77rey
I realize this is months later...still catching up. But I also wanted
to thank you for sharing your story. I have my share of struggles and
knowing that others who are farther along still do is realy helpful in
getting perspective and remaining more centered.
Audrey S
to thank you for sharing your story. I have my share of struggles and
knowing that others who are farther along still do is realy helpful in
getting perspective and remaining more centered.
Audrey S