Real Meltdown Example and Frightened Child (7 yrs)
j50yab
I was actually going to ask advice about the dogs scenario (below),
then I realised that I now have a real "meltdown" example to share and
would really appreciate advice as to what I could have done before,
during and after. If your advice is far from what I did/am doing
could you help me out by giving me a "next step" clue of what to work
on as sometimes suggestions are so far away from where we're at, I
can't even imagine how to get there?
Sorry, it's a bit of a long story, but since I don't know which bits
are most important I'll need to tell you all of it..
For background I would say that DS1 (just 7) has been fairly
traditionally parented (incl yelling/time
out/praise/rewards/punishment etc). We have DS2 (21 months) who
was/is v high need/demands a lot of time and attention and up til now
I didn't know a good way to manage their competing needs so my heart
breaks to see how much DS 1 is struggling with this and I know his
needs are not being met by me. Could go on and on with examples etc
but that is not the point of this post.
Yesterday we had a wonderful day, 5 hours (!!!) of it were spent
collecting, sorting, bagging, and delivering other peoples empty
plastic bottles to the recycling depot. Despite all the problems I'm
going to list DS 1 really wanted to do this, and it was very important
to him. Looking from the outside I might conclude that all the
"problems" weighed heavier than the gain, and so I sld not have guided
him to it from the start?
1. Naturally all the work was physically very tiring for him.
2. He usually plays alone in his room for an hour after lunch as he
really starts to flag and get ratty yesterday we skipped it (mistake
with hindsight I think) as he was enjoying the recycling bottles so much.
3. There was quite a lot of conversational contact with adults because
of the project. DS1 is a little shy (for your information only, I do
not mean I am trying to change this) and he is trying to engage with
other children and adults but is not very skilled at it. So I think
it is hard work for him emotionally and mentally (and even harder for
me to watch as his approaches are usually quite "inappropriate" from
the pov of the other adult who consider him rude). Maybe I sld steer
away from adult interaction for now except people he knows well and
can talk to in a comfortable way (hardly anyone)?
4. To help with the "rude" approaches he is unintentionally making to
adults I will give him examples (regularly I guess when we are doing
this kind of thing) of what he could say, and I will model it myself
too. So this is a possible added "pressure" from Mum, not sure if he
feels it or not.
5. Unfortunately the area/circumstances where we live mean strangers
can unpredictably be aggressive/angry for no reason, so, for eg, in
this project I am often mentioning how we must take the bottles
carefully and quietly etc so as not to disturb people (honestly,
drives me mad and has me on eggshells for example if he drops a bag
and makes a big noise in someone's yard I might shout at him before I
can stop myself and I feel really bad for that as it undermines all
the confidence and belief in him self that I am trying to rebuild here
- but it wld not be a surprise for someone to open their front door
and shout "what the f*** do you think you're doing in my bin, get out
of there you f***ing" etc etc). DS1 has not experienced this directly
but it has happened in the past in his hearing although he may have
been too busy with other things to notice. So sadly I am beginning to
bend his world view a little and squeeze his natural childishness
(nagging how "we need to try and be very quiet as some people wouldn't
like for us to make noise in their yard", "we must try hard not to
brush past people in the street as we don't want to disturb someone"
ie get a mouthful of vile abuse etc these are just a few examples
but it comes up loads sadly). This is all in order to keep us safe
from physical or verbal abuse. so more pressure from Mum. Maybe I
wld be better avoiding these kinds of scenarios as much as possible as
this is unfair restriction on a child? But it is the same in town or
supermarket anyway so it is continual really if we go out anywhere.
6. At the depot he was helping adults who he respected and liked and
therefore wanted to please, but they did not have good child tolerance
levels so kept on correcting him for doing childlike things don't
know if he noticed or not.
7. Also at depot the adult he respected and liked was doing 2 things
that DS1 views to be "wrong", I don't disagree with DS's view on these
but he normally needs quite a bit of support to deal with his confused
and conflicting feelings re someone he trusts/likes/respects doing
something he considers to be morally wrong, an example would be
calling someone names etc. In this case I couldn't talk to him
because he was in the thick of it doing a job with the other adults.
8. When they finished, all the workers had a small bottle of water to
drink for a refreshment which DS1 opened and brought home with him.
9. Before leaving, DS1 wanted to take some photos. There were 5
police cars in the corner, I could tell they were on a job and they
had dogs in the back, one of the men and his dog got out. DS1 is
absolutely utterly terrified of dogs if they run or bark and come
towards him. I didn't tell him/persuade him not to do the photos (I
think that may have been a mistake?) but pointed the dog out to him so
he was aware of the situation and not taken by surprise. He had
already heard it and was really edgy. He wanted to take the photo but
couldn't concentrate because of the dogs. I stood on the dog side of
him and had my hand on him and asked if he wanted to stay or go. He
said stay (I think I should have come up with a suitable truthful
excuse/reason to leave immediately without making him make the
decision). Then all the dogs started barking like mad in the cars.
10. So we finished up and left - conversation continued in the car
about the dogs. As he is a little sensitive I am always cautious
about sharing too much before he is ready and have never actually
discussed the role of police dogs with him. Because I thought he was
prob quite afraid this time I told him a little about what they do and
emphasised that they do as the police man says, thinking that a little
factual knowledge might help normalise it a bit (I could tell it
didn't help and I wonder if I should have said nothing at all how
cld I have better dealt with this? We had about 5 together minutes in
the car.)
11. We came in the house, I turned my back to hang up my coat and
immediately DS2 took the water bottle out of DS1s hand. Then he had a
complete meltdown. He screamed and cried harder than I have seen in
many years. His emotions were absolutely huge and I think he will
have frightened himself.
12. I had to make an instant decision and so I took water back from
DS2, gave DS2 to his Dad and went to see DS1 who had run into the next
room howling with tears streaming. When I went in he had a teddy and
pretended it was a crazed dog and made it bark madly at me in a really
wild way saying if you xyz (can't remember what, might have said if
you come in here) my dog will xyz (can't remember but the dog was very
fierce and he might have said it will bite you).
13. The wild teddy was repeated another 3 times, to his Dad and DS2
twice. I just didn't know what to say or do. He really needed me and
I was paralysed I have no clue how I could have helped him manage
his feelings right then. But, coming from a traditional parenting
background, at least I managed not to take teddy off him or tell him
to stop it.
14. Couple of minutes later he went to the toilet with the mad teddy
which barked and shouted at DS2. I asked him was he frightened of the
police dogs. He answered in a barking dog voice "they were very noisy
I don't like all their noise". Actually they weren't that loud as
they were a little way away and obviously his fear of the dogs isn't
just annoyance at their loud noise but I didn't say anything.
15. With me he is a very good communicator but I think he cannot
describe his feelings, a conversation about the dogs I think would
have gone nowhere I would have been talking and "putting things into
his mouth" and that's about it. So I didn't talk about it any more
and I feel I let him down. Took him another 2 hours to get off to sleep.
Any ideas anyone please. I was really upset about not being able to
help him with the "meltdown". But the whole day contains lots of
other issues as well. Please be gentle as we aren't unschooling at
the moment so I only know and understand what I've read on here and
couple of other boards.
Thanks. Sarah
then I realised that I now have a real "meltdown" example to share and
would really appreciate advice as to what I could have done before,
during and after. If your advice is far from what I did/am doing
could you help me out by giving me a "next step" clue of what to work
on as sometimes suggestions are so far away from where we're at, I
can't even imagine how to get there?
Sorry, it's a bit of a long story, but since I don't know which bits
are most important I'll need to tell you all of it..
For background I would say that DS1 (just 7) has been fairly
traditionally parented (incl yelling/time
out/praise/rewards/punishment etc). We have DS2 (21 months) who
was/is v high need/demands a lot of time and attention and up til now
I didn't know a good way to manage their competing needs so my heart
breaks to see how much DS 1 is struggling with this and I know his
needs are not being met by me. Could go on and on with examples etc
but that is not the point of this post.
Yesterday we had a wonderful day, 5 hours (!!!) of it were spent
collecting, sorting, bagging, and delivering other peoples empty
plastic bottles to the recycling depot. Despite all the problems I'm
going to list DS 1 really wanted to do this, and it was very important
to him. Looking from the outside I might conclude that all the
"problems" weighed heavier than the gain, and so I sld not have guided
him to it from the start?
1. Naturally all the work was physically very tiring for him.
2. He usually plays alone in his room for an hour after lunch as he
really starts to flag and get ratty yesterday we skipped it (mistake
with hindsight I think) as he was enjoying the recycling bottles so much.
3. There was quite a lot of conversational contact with adults because
of the project. DS1 is a little shy (for your information only, I do
not mean I am trying to change this) and he is trying to engage with
other children and adults but is not very skilled at it. So I think
it is hard work for him emotionally and mentally (and even harder for
me to watch as his approaches are usually quite "inappropriate" from
the pov of the other adult who consider him rude). Maybe I sld steer
away from adult interaction for now except people he knows well and
can talk to in a comfortable way (hardly anyone)?
4. To help with the "rude" approaches he is unintentionally making to
adults I will give him examples (regularly I guess when we are doing
this kind of thing) of what he could say, and I will model it myself
too. So this is a possible added "pressure" from Mum, not sure if he
feels it or not.
5. Unfortunately the area/circumstances where we live mean strangers
can unpredictably be aggressive/angry for no reason, so, for eg, in
this project I am often mentioning how we must take the bottles
carefully and quietly etc so as not to disturb people (honestly,
drives me mad and has me on eggshells for example if he drops a bag
and makes a big noise in someone's yard I might shout at him before I
can stop myself and I feel really bad for that as it undermines all
the confidence and belief in him self that I am trying to rebuild here
- but it wld not be a surprise for someone to open their front door
and shout "what the f*** do you think you're doing in my bin, get out
of there you f***ing" etc etc). DS1 has not experienced this directly
but it has happened in the past in his hearing although he may have
been too busy with other things to notice. So sadly I am beginning to
bend his world view a little and squeeze his natural childishness
(nagging how "we need to try and be very quiet as some people wouldn't
like for us to make noise in their yard", "we must try hard not to
brush past people in the street as we don't want to disturb someone"
ie get a mouthful of vile abuse etc these are just a few examples
but it comes up loads sadly). This is all in order to keep us safe
from physical or verbal abuse. so more pressure from Mum. Maybe I
wld be better avoiding these kinds of scenarios as much as possible as
this is unfair restriction on a child? But it is the same in town or
supermarket anyway so it is continual really if we go out anywhere.
6. At the depot he was helping adults who he respected and liked and
therefore wanted to please, but they did not have good child tolerance
levels so kept on correcting him for doing childlike things don't
know if he noticed or not.
7. Also at depot the adult he respected and liked was doing 2 things
that DS1 views to be "wrong", I don't disagree with DS's view on these
but he normally needs quite a bit of support to deal with his confused
and conflicting feelings re someone he trusts/likes/respects doing
something he considers to be morally wrong, an example would be
calling someone names etc. In this case I couldn't talk to him
because he was in the thick of it doing a job with the other adults.
8. When they finished, all the workers had a small bottle of water to
drink for a refreshment which DS1 opened and brought home with him.
9. Before leaving, DS1 wanted to take some photos. There were 5
police cars in the corner, I could tell they were on a job and they
had dogs in the back, one of the men and his dog got out. DS1 is
absolutely utterly terrified of dogs if they run or bark and come
towards him. I didn't tell him/persuade him not to do the photos (I
think that may have been a mistake?) but pointed the dog out to him so
he was aware of the situation and not taken by surprise. He had
already heard it and was really edgy. He wanted to take the photo but
couldn't concentrate because of the dogs. I stood on the dog side of
him and had my hand on him and asked if he wanted to stay or go. He
said stay (I think I should have come up with a suitable truthful
excuse/reason to leave immediately without making him make the
decision). Then all the dogs started barking like mad in the cars.
10. So we finished up and left - conversation continued in the car
about the dogs. As he is a little sensitive I am always cautious
about sharing too much before he is ready and have never actually
discussed the role of police dogs with him. Because I thought he was
prob quite afraid this time I told him a little about what they do and
emphasised that they do as the police man says, thinking that a little
factual knowledge might help normalise it a bit (I could tell it
didn't help and I wonder if I should have said nothing at all how
cld I have better dealt with this? We had about 5 together minutes in
the car.)
11. We came in the house, I turned my back to hang up my coat and
immediately DS2 took the water bottle out of DS1s hand. Then he had a
complete meltdown. He screamed and cried harder than I have seen in
many years. His emotions were absolutely huge and I think he will
have frightened himself.
12. I had to make an instant decision and so I took water back from
DS2, gave DS2 to his Dad and went to see DS1 who had run into the next
room howling with tears streaming. When I went in he had a teddy and
pretended it was a crazed dog and made it bark madly at me in a really
wild way saying if you xyz (can't remember what, might have said if
you come in here) my dog will xyz (can't remember but the dog was very
fierce and he might have said it will bite you).
13. The wild teddy was repeated another 3 times, to his Dad and DS2
twice. I just didn't know what to say or do. He really needed me and
I was paralysed I have no clue how I could have helped him manage
his feelings right then. But, coming from a traditional parenting
background, at least I managed not to take teddy off him or tell him
to stop it.
14. Couple of minutes later he went to the toilet with the mad teddy
which barked and shouted at DS2. I asked him was he frightened of the
police dogs. He answered in a barking dog voice "they were very noisy
I don't like all their noise". Actually they weren't that loud as
they were a little way away and obviously his fear of the dogs isn't
just annoyance at their loud noise but I didn't say anything.
15. With me he is a very good communicator but I think he cannot
describe his feelings, a conversation about the dogs I think would
have gone nowhere I would have been talking and "putting things into
his mouth" and that's about it. So I didn't talk about it any more
and I feel I let him down. Took him another 2 hours to get off to sleep.
Any ideas anyone please. I was really upset about not being able to
help him with the "meltdown". But the whole day contains lots of
other issues as well. Please be gentle as we aren't unschooling at
the moment so I only know and understand what I've read on here and
couple of other boards.
Thanks. Sarah
j50yab
I was actually going to ask advice about the dogs scenario (below),
then I realised that I now have a real "meltdown" example to share and
would really appreciate advice as to what I could have done before,
during and after. If your advice is far from what I did/am doing
could you help me out by giving me a "next step" clue of what to work
on as sometimes suggestions are so far away from where we're at, I
can't even imagine how to get there?
Sorry, it's a bit of a long story, but since I don't know which bits
are most important I'll need to tell you all of it..
For background I would say that DS1 (just 7) has been fairly
traditionally parented (incl yelling/time
out/praise/rewards/punishment etc). We have DS2 (21 months) who
was/is v high need/demands a lot of time and attention and up til now
I didn't know a good way to manage their competing needs so my heart
breaks to see how much DS 1 is struggling with this and I know his
needs are not being met by me. Could go on and on with examples etc
but that is not the point of this post.
Yesterday we had a wonderful day, 5 hours (!!!) of it were spent
collecting, sorting, bagging, and delivering other peoples empty
plastic bottles to the recycling depot. Despite all the problems I'm
going to list DS 1 really wanted to do this, and it was very important
to him. Looking from the outside I might conclude that all the
"problems" weighed heavier than the gain, and so I sld not have guided
him to it from the start?
1. Naturally all the work was physically very tiring for him.
2. He usually plays alone in his room for an hour after lunch as he
really starts to flag and get ratty yesterday we skipped it (mistake
with hindsight I think) as he was enjoying the recycling bottles so much.
3. There was quite a lot of conversational contact with adults because
of the project. DS1 is a little shy (for your information only, I do
not mean I am trying to change this) and he is trying to engage with
other children and adults but is not very skilled at it. So I think
it is hard work for him emotionally and mentally (and even harder for
me to watch as his approaches are usually quite "inappropriate" from
the pov of the other adult who consider him rude). Maybe I sld steer
away from adult interaction for now except people he knows well and
can talk to in a comfortable way (hardly anyone)?
4. To help with the "rude" approaches he is unintentionally making to
adults I will give him examples (regularly I guess when we are doing
this kind of thing) of what he could say, and I will model it myself
too. So this is a possible added "pressure" from Mum, not sure if he
feels it or not.
5. Unfortunately the area/circumstances where we live mean strangers
can unpredictably be aggressive/angry for no reason, so, for eg, in
this project I am often mentioning how we must take the bottles
carefully and quietly etc so as not to disturb people (honestly,
drives me mad and has me on eggshells for example if he drops a bag
and makes a big noise in someone's yard I might shout at him before I
can stop myself and I feel really bad for that as it undermines all
the confidence and belief in him self that I am trying to rebuild here
- but it wld not be a surprise for someone to open their front door
and shout "what the f*** do you think you're doing in my bin, get out
of there you f***ing" etc etc). DS1 has not experienced this directly
but it has happened in the past in his hearing although he may have
been too busy with other things to notice. So sadly I am beginning to
bend his world view a little and squeeze his natural childishness
(nagging how "we need to try and be very quiet as some people wouldn't
like for us to make noise in their yard", "we must try hard not to
brush past people in the street as we don't want to disturb someone"
ie get a mouthful of vile abuse etc these are just a few examples
but it comes up loads sadly). This is all in order to keep us safe
from physical or verbal abuse. so more pressure from Mum. Maybe I
wld be better avoiding these kinds of scenarios as much as possible as
this is unfair restriction on a child? But it is the same in town or
supermarket anyway so it is continual really if we go out anywhere.
6. At the depot he was helping adults who he respected and liked and
therefore wanted to please, but they did not have good child tolerance
levels so kept on correcting him for doing childlike things don't
know if he noticed or not.
7. Also at depot the adult he respected and liked was doing 2 things
that DS1 views to be "wrong", I don't disagree with DS's view on these
but he normally needs quite a bit of support to deal with his confused
and conflicting feelings re someone he trusts/likes/respects doing
something he considers to be morally wrong, an example would be
calling someone names etc. In this case I couldn't talk to him
because he was in the thick of it doing a job with the other adults.
8. When they finished, all the workers had a small bottle of water to
drink for a refreshment which DS1 opened and brought home with him.
9. Before leaving, DS1 wanted to take some photos. There were 5
police cars in the corner, I could tell they were on a job and they
had dogs in the back, one of the men and his dog got out. DS1 is
absolutely utterly terrified of dogs if they run or bark and come
towards him. I didn't tell him/persuade him not to do the photos (I
think that may have been a mistake?) but pointed the dog out to him so
he was aware of the situation and not taken by surprise. He had
already heard it and was really edgy. He wanted to take the photo but
couldn't concentrate because of the dogs. I stood on the dog side of
him and had my hand on him and asked if he wanted to stay or go. He
said stay (I think I should have come up with a suitable truthful
excuse/reason to leave immediately without making him make the
decision). Then all the dogs started barking like mad in the cars.
10. So we finished up and left - conversation continued in the car
about the dogs. As he is a little sensitive I am always cautious
about sharing too much before he is ready and have never actually
discussed the role of police dogs with him. Because I thought he was
prob quite afraid this time I told him a little about what they do and
emphasised that they do as the police man says, thinking that a little
factual knowledge might help normalise it a bit (I could tell it
didn't help and I wonder if I should have said nothing at all how
cld I have better dealt with this? We had about 5 together minutes in
the car.)
11. We came in the house, I turned my back to hang up my coat and
immediately DS2 took the water bottle out of DS1s hand. Then he had a
complete meltdown. He screamed and cried harder than I have seen in
many years. His emotions were absolutely huge and I think he will
have frightened himself.
12. I had to make an instant decision and so I took water back from
DS2, gave DS2 to his Dad and went to see DS1 who had run into the next
room howling with tears streaming. When I went in he had a teddy and
pretended it was a crazed dog and made it bark madly at me in a really
wild way saying if you xyz (can't remember what, might have said if
you come in here) my dog will xyz (can't remember but the dog was very
fierce and he might have said it will bite you).
13. The wild teddy was repeated another 3 times, to his Dad and DS2
twice. I just didn't know what to say or do. He really needed me and
I was paralysed I have no clue how I could have helped him manage
his feelings right then. But, coming from a traditional parenting
background, at least I managed not to take teddy off him or tell him
to stop it.
14. Couple of minutes later he went to the toilet with the mad teddy
which barked and shouted at DS2. I asked him was he frightened of the
police dogs. He answered in a barking dog voice "they were very noisy
I don't like all their noise". Actually they weren't that loud as
they were a little way away and obviously his fear of the dogs isn't
just annoyance at their loud noise but I didn't say anything.
15. With me he is a very good communicator but I think he cannot
describe his feelings, a conversation about the dogs I think would
have gone nowhere I would have been talking and "putting things into
his mouth" and that's about it. So I didn't talk about it any more
and I feel I let him down. Took him another 2 hours to get off to sleep.
Any ideas anyone please. I was really upset about not being able to
help him with the "meltdown". But the whole day contains lots of
other issues as well. Please be gentle as we aren't unschooling at
the moment so I only know and understand what I've read on here and
couple of other boards.
Thanks. Sarah
then I realised that I now have a real "meltdown" example to share and
would really appreciate advice as to what I could have done before,
during and after. If your advice is far from what I did/am doing
could you help me out by giving me a "next step" clue of what to work
on as sometimes suggestions are so far away from where we're at, I
can't even imagine how to get there?
Sorry, it's a bit of a long story, but since I don't know which bits
are most important I'll need to tell you all of it..
For background I would say that DS1 (just 7) has been fairly
traditionally parented (incl yelling/time
out/praise/rewards/punishment etc). We have DS2 (21 months) who
was/is v high need/demands a lot of time and attention and up til now
I didn't know a good way to manage their competing needs so my heart
breaks to see how much DS 1 is struggling with this and I know his
needs are not being met by me. Could go on and on with examples etc
but that is not the point of this post.
Yesterday we had a wonderful day, 5 hours (!!!) of it were spent
collecting, sorting, bagging, and delivering other peoples empty
plastic bottles to the recycling depot. Despite all the problems I'm
going to list DS 1 really wanted to do this, and it was very important
to him. Looking from the outside I might conclude that all the
"problems" weighed heavier than the gain, and so I sld not have guided
him to it from the start?
1. Naturally all the work was physically very tiring for him.
2. He usually plays alone in his room for an hour after lunch as he
really starts to flag and get ratty yesterday we skipped it (mistake
with hindsight I think) as he was enjoying the recycling bottles so much.
3. There was quite a lot of conversational contact with adults because
of the project. DS1 is a little shy (for your information only, I do
not mean I am trying to change this) and he is trying to engage with
other children and adults but is not very skilled at it. So I think
it is hard work for him emotionally and mentally (and even harder for
me to watch as his approaches are usually quite "inappropriate" from
the pov of the other adult who consider him rude). Maybe I sld steer
away from adult interaction for now except people he knows well and
can talk to in a comfortable way (hardly anyone)?
4. To help with the "rude" approaches he is unintentionally making to
adults I will give him examples (regularly I guess when we are doing
this kind of thing) of what he could say, and I will model it myself
too. So this is a possible added "pressure" from Mum, not sure if he
feels it or not.
5. Unfortunately the area/circumstances where we live mean strangers
can unpredictably be aggressive/angry for no reason, so, for eg, in
this project I am often mentioning how we must take the bottles
carefully and quietly etc so as not to disturb people (honestly,
drives me mad and has me on eggshells for example if he drops a bag
and makes a big noise in someone's yard I might shout at him before I
can stop myself and I feel really bad for that as it undermines all
the confidence and belief in him self that I am trying to rebuild here
- but it wld not be a surprise for someone to open their front door
and shout "what the f*** do you think you're doing in my bin, get out
of there you f***ing" etc etc). DS1 has not experienced this directly
but it has happened in the past in his hearing although he may have
been too busy with other things to notice. So sadly I am beginning to
bend his world view a little and squeeze his natural childishness
(nagging how "we need to try and be very quiet as some people wouldn't
like for us to make noise in their yard", "we must try hard not to
brush past people in the street as we don't want to disturb someone"
ie get a mouthful of vile abuse etc these are just a few examples
but it comes up loads sadly). This is all in order to keep us safe
from physical or verbal abuse. so more pressure from Mum. Maybe I
wld be better avoiding these kinds of scenarios as much as possible as
this is unfair restriction on a child? But it is the same in town or
supermarket anyway so it is continual really if we go out anywhere.
6. At the depot he was helping adults who he respected and liked and
therefore wanted to please, but they did not have good child tolerance
levels so kept on correcting him for doing childlike things don't
know if he noticed or not.
7. Also at depot the adult he respected and liked was doing 2 things
that DS1 views to be "wrong", I don't disagree with DS's view on these
but he normally needs quite a bit of support to deal with his confused
and conflicting feelings re someone he trusts/likes/respects doing
something he considers to be morally wrong, an example would be
calling someone names etc. In this case I couldn't talk to him
because he was in the thick of it doing a job with the other adults.
8. When they finished, all the workers had a small bottle of water to
drink for a refreshment which DS1 opened and brought home with him.
9. Before leaving, DS1 wanted to take some photos. There were 5
police cars in the corner, I could tell they were on a job and they
had dogs in the back, one of the men and his dog got out. DS1 is
absolutely utterly terrified of dogs if they run or bark and come
towards him. I didn't tell him/persuade him not to do the photos (I
think that may have been a mistake?) but pointed the dog out to him so
he was aware of the situation and not taken by surprise. He had
already heard it and was really edgy. He wanted to take the photo but
couldn't concentrate because of the dogs. I stood on the dog side of
him and had my hand on him and asked if he wanted to stay or go. He
said stay (I think I should have come up with a suitable truthful
excuse/reason to leave immediately without making him make the
decision). Then all the dogs started barking like mad in the cars.
10. So we finished up and left - conversation continued in the car
about the dogs. As he is a little sensitive I am always cautious
about sharing too much before he is ready and have never actually
discussed the role of police dogs with him. Because I thought he was
prob quite afraid this time I told him a little about what they do and
emphasised that they do as the police man says, thinking that a little
factual knowledge might help normalise it a bit (I could tell it
didn't help and I wonder if I should have said nothing at all how
cld I have better dealt with this? We had about 5 together minutes in
the car.)
11. We came in the house, I turned my back to hang up my coat and
immediately DS2 took the water bottle out of DS1s hand. Then he had a
complete meltdown. He screamed and cried harder than I have seen in
many years. His emotions were absolutely huge and I think he will
have frightened himself.
12. I had to make an instant decision and so I took water back from
DS2, gave DS2 to his Dad and went to see DS1 who had run into the next
room howling with tears streaming. When I went in he had a teddy and
pretended it was a crazed dog and made it bark madly at me in a really
wild way saying if you xyz (can't remember what, might have said if
you come in here) my dog will xyz (can't remember but the dog was very
fierce and he might have said it will bite you).
13. The wild teddy was repeated another 3 times, to his Dad and DS2
twice. I just didn't know what to say or do. He really needed me and
I was paralysed I have no clue how I could have helped him manage
his feelings right then. But, coming from a traditional parenting
background, at least I managed not to take teddy off him or tell him
to stop it.
14. Couple of minutes later he went to the toilet with the mad teddy
which barked and shouted at DS2. I asked him was he frightened of the
police dogs. He answered in a barking dog voice "they were very noisy
I don't like all their noise". Actually they weren't that loud as
they were a little way away and obviously his fear of the dogs isn't
just annoyance at their loud noise but I didn't say anything.
15. With me he is a very good communicator but I think he cannot
describe his feelings, a conversation about the dogs I think would
have gone nowhere I would have been talking and "putting things into
his mouth" and that's about it. So I didn't talk about it any more
and I feel I let him down. Took him another 2 hours to get off to sleep.
Any ideas anyone please. I was really upset about not being able to
help him with the "meltdown". But the whole day contains lots of
other issues as well. Please be gentle as we aren't unschooling at
the moment so I only know and understand what I've read on here and
couple of other boards.
Thanks. Sarah
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/4/2007 6:33:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ourhome@... writes:
Any ideas anyone please. I was really upset about not being able to
help him with the "meltdown". But the whole day contains lots of
other issues as well. Please be gentle as we aren't unschooling at
the moment so I only know and understand what I've read on here and
couple of other boards.
Thanks. Sarah
I can tell that you care so much about your son, and I personally feel that
you already "got" a lot of the situation taken care of in your mind. You said
prevention re: his quiet time and a few other things that in hindsight, you
sorta "knew" you shouldn't have done. Don't we all have that at some point?
Yep :)
It seems to me that your son is SO stimulated by out of the usual way of
things, that he just can't cope. And you are trying to help him cope. AND - he
IS doing something to show you his confusion and struggles. The barking Teddy
spoke for him, perhaps because he felt unable (don't want to guess too much at
his feelings of course, I'm just taking what we were given and giving a
possible scenario). He seems like he was possibly angry with you, angry with
himself and angry in general. I "heard" in a way, this rumbling sound, this
hubbub of activity that came across as chaos (what could have ben excitement to
another) with noises all over, a sense of urgency and a large bit of the
unknown. My son, Julian, who is nearly 5, is a child that THRIVES on routine. Oh,
my, especially when he was younger, just by a year, he had to do the same
things in the same ways, had to know what was going to happen next on TV, video
games, daily life! He had many fears and prevention was always the key to his
calm.
So to nutshell my "advice" lol ;) I'd say that you have a LOT of good
hindsight info and that if you can use that for future times, it may well help
prevent major meltdowns. I know one thing, the being quiet when going through
neighbor's bins, that struck me as something that probably was indeed too much
for him. And I'm a little unsure as to why that was a needed part of the
recycling trip...
Sorry if I'm a bit round about here - I've been doing stickers and marbles
and nursing in between sentences, lol!
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ourhome@... writes:
Any ideas anyone please. I was really upset about not being able to
help him with the "meltdown". But the whole day contains lots of
other issues as well. Please be gentle as we aren't unschooling at
the moment so I only know and understand what I've read on here and
couple of other boards.
Thanks. Sarah
I can tell that you care so much about your son, and I personally feel that
you already "got" a lot of the situation taken care of in your mind. You said
prevention re: his quiet time and a few other things that in hindsight, you
sorta "knew" you shouldn't have done. Don't we all have that at some point?
Yep :)
It seems to me that your son is SO stimulated by out of the usual way of
things, that he just can't cope. And you are trying to help him cope. AND - he
IS doing something to show you his confusion and struggles. The barking Teddy
spoke for him, perhaps because he felt unable (don't want to guess too much at
his feelings of course, I'm just taking what we were given and giving a
possible scenario). He seems like he was possibly angry with you, angry with
himself and angry in general. I "heard" in a way, this rumbling sound, this
hubbub of activity that came across as chaos (what could have ben excitement to
another) with noises all over, a sense of urgency and a large bit of the
unknown. My son, Julian, who is nearly 5, is a child that THRIVES on routine. Oh,
my, especially when he was younger, just by a year, he had to do the same
things in the same ways, had to know what was going to happen next on TV, video
games, daily life! He had many fears and prevention was always the key to his
calm.
So to nutshell my "advice" lol ;) I'd say that you have a LOT of good
hindsight info and that if you can use that for future times, it may well help
prevent major meltdowns. I know one thing, the being quiet when going through
neighbor's bins, that struck me as something that probably was indeed too much
for him. And I'm a little unsure as to why that was a needed part of the
recycling trip...
Sorry if I'm a bit round about here - I've been doing stickers and marbles
and nursing in between sentences, lol!
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
j50yab
Thank you Karen - so when he did the dog teddy thing, what do you
think I could have done to help him? Sarah
think I could have done to help him? Sarah
Kelly
Hi Sarah,
When my (nearly) 4 yr old dd has a melt down, I will begin by getting
down on the ground where she can easily look directly at me if she
chooses. Then I'll begin calmly clarifying/acknowledging anything she
is saying. For instance, the other day my dh witnessed dd jab the
pointy end of her scissors into my desk chair. My husband asked her
to
please not cut the chair. (He is extremely good with her, and a
natural
and intuitive unschooler, so I am certain this was asked kindly.) She
melted down, and started sobbing uncontrollably. He was in the middle
of a rather cumbersome and challenging task, so he called me to check
on her. When I got to where she was (on our "big bed" as she calls
it),
I sat down with her and listened. When she is upset, she will often
follow a familiar pattern. First, she is angry, and will blame her
dear
friend G. (another unschooler, who is 7, and who loves my dd dearly,
and always looks out for her), which is what she did in this
case. "G.
did it! She took the scissors and stabbed the chair! Bad G.! Stupid
G.!" She'll then go through her list of those she most loves, calling
each of them "stupid Mom, stupid Dad" etc. At this point, I'll simply
acknowledge that she's really mad. I'll say something like "You sound
really mad. You feel like G. is stupid, and Mommy is stupid," etc.
This
will often begin to have a softening affect on her, at which point I
may gently and briefly initiate physical contact (a stroke of the
knee
or arm). We'll go through as many rounds of this as necessary, her
expressing something, me acknowledging what she's expressing, until I
know she's receptive to hearing a comment about her actions. In this
case, my comment was: "It's just a chair," along with a soft smile
and a stroke of her arm. At this point, she fell into
my lap sobbing again, but it was a sob of relief. Once she was done,
we
were able to go look at the chair together, talk about why it
happened
(she thought she saw a bug crawl in there, and wanted to give it a
way
out!) and what else she might do in the future, besides cut the chair.
For my dd, the key is getting on her level, and seeing the experience
through her eyes. I'm not always right about my assumptions re: why
she
did something (in this case, I thought she might just be exploring
the
sharpness of the scissors, or how it would feel to push them through
the fabric. I never would have guessed she was trying to set a bug
free! LOL! Though that's so like her :)), but I can see how much she
appreciates being really listened to. And of course, the other key is
allowing her to express her feelings without judgement, and without
repercussion, so she knows she is safe. She knows she is loved
whether
she's angry, joyful, sad, whatever. Her emotions don't carry a price
tag when it comes to her parents love of her. I think often parents
get
caught up in feeling they must "do" something when their children act
out or melt down, or whatever else children do that don't conform to
an
adult world. Most of the time, though, the acts of listening and
loving
are all that are required. Once the intensity of the moment has
passed, then it's possible to talk about what happened, and help the
child see what other options are available to them. It's not unusual
for kids to go through
periods of fear about one thing or another. I maintain that, under
most
circumstances, knowing they are loved and valued (more than a chair,
more than the mean people you are encountering in your recycling
efforts, more than anything) is the thing that will see them through
these times.
HTH!
Kelly
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ourhome@...>
wrote:
When my (nearly) 4 yr old dd has a melt down, I will begin by getting
down on the ground where she can easily look directly at me if she
chooses. Then I'll begin calmly clarifying/acknowledging anything she
is saying. For instance, the other day my dh witnessed dd jab the
pointy end of her scissors into my desk chair. My husband asked her
to
please not cut the chair. (He is extremely good with her, and a
natural
and intuitive unschooler, so I am certain this was asked kindly.) She
melted down, and started sobbing uncontrollably. He was in the middle
of a rather cumbersome and challenging task, so he called me to check
on her. When I got to where she was (on our "big bed" as she calls
it),
I sat down with her and listened. When she is upset, she will often
follow a familiar pattern. First, she is angry, and will blame her
dear
friend G. (another unschooler, who is 7, and who loves my dd dearly,
and always looks out for her), which is what she did in this
case. "G.
did it! She took the scissors and stabbed the chair! Bad G.! Stupid
G.!" She'll then go through her list of those she most loves, calling
each of them "stupid Mom, stupid Dad" etc. At this point, I'll simply
acknowledge that she's really mad. I'll say something like "You sound
really mad. You feel like G. is stupid, and Mommy is stupid," etc.
This
will often begin to have a softening affect on her, at which point I
may gently and briefly initiate physical contact (a stroke of the
knee
or arm). We'll go through as many rounds of this as necessary, her
expressing something, me acknowledging what she's expressing, until I
know she's receptive to hearing a comment about her actions. In this
case, my comment was: "It's just a chair," along with a soft smile
and a stroke of her arm. At this point, she fell into
my lap sobbing again, but it was a sob of relief. Once she was done,
we
were able to go look at the chair together, talk about why it
happened
(she thought she saw a bug crawl in there, and wanted to give it a
way
out!) and what else she might do in the future, besides cut the chair.
For my dd, the key is getting on her level, and seeing the experience
through her eyes. I'm not always right about my assumptions re: why
she
did something (in this case, I thought she might just be exploring
the
sharpness of the scissors, or how it would feel to push them through
the fabric. I never would have guessed she was trying to set a bug
free! LOL! Though that's so like her :)), but I can see how much she
appreciates being really listened to. And of course, the other key is
allowing her to express her feelings without judgement, and without
repercussion, so she knows she is safe. She knows she is loved
whether
she's angry, joyful, sad, whatever. Her emotions don't carry a price
tag when it comes to her parents love of her. I think often parents
get
caught up in feeling they must "do" something when their children act
out or melt down, or whatever else children do that don't conform to
an
adult world. Most of the time, though, the acts of listening and
loving
are all that are required. Once the intensity of the moment has
passed, then it's possible to talk about what happened, and help the
child see what other options are available to them. It's not unusual
for kids to go through
periods of fear about one thing or another. I maintain that, under
most
circumstances, knowing they are loved and valued (more than a chair,
more than the mean people you are encountering in your recycling
efforts, more than anything) is the thing that will see them through
these times.
HTH!
Kelly
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ourhome@...>
wrote:
>
> Thank you Karen - so when he did the dog teddy thing, what do you
> think I could have done to help him? Sarah
>
Shannon Barniskis
Hi Sarah--sorry about your meltdown--Aoife used to have these when she was over-stimulated until I learned what the warning signs were and how to help her. In my opinion, letting your son act out his fear and over-whelmed feelings with the teddy bear were wonderful. I don't know about your son, but my daughter really needed to act out things like that. I found with her that talking about her feelings too much when she was in the moment just escalated her rages. I used to talk to her about how it frankly sucks to lose control, and that I would take care of her and keep her safe, and soon she'd be able to get her control back. I also played some wild intense playacting games with her that made me feel uncomfortable at times, but she needed it--she needed to beat up her stuffed animal or whatever, and as much as I hate violence I didn't try to contain it. (She never acted against a living creature.) Perhaps your son needs similar acting out with you? The dog thing he was acting out sounds like he was taking control of the scariest thing he knew of and playing it out.
My girl's 14 now, and we've learned a lot since those wild days. We all know about overstimulation and sometimes (I swear I'm not saying this as a sort of barb due to the somehow pro-limit stance I'm taking in other posts!) need to limit her or remind her of her own interior limits, just as you said in hindsight you wished you'd ensured you're son got his after-lunch rest. Sadly in the world we cannot control others and their not-so-child-friendly stances, and there are going to be days where it's just all too much for the little ones. Yeah, he probably "got" the non-child-friendly vibes, (which always made me cranky, which in turn made my daughter more upset, until I learned to either let it slide or call people on it.)
I think talking about it the next day when things have calmed is useful--but not too much. From what I understand, just a few phrases are all a 7 yo can developmentally handle--not huge long conversations. So I think you were on the right track with not "putting thing sin his mouth." And I think you needn't feel like you failed him--it sounds like you supported him. Be well & good luck--Shannon B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My girl's 14 now, and we've learned a lot since those wild days. We all know about overstimulation and sometimes (I swear I'm not saying this as a sort of barb due to the somehow pro-limit stance I'm taking in other posts!) need to limit her or remind her of her own interior limits, just as you said in hindsight you wished you'd ensured you're son got his after-lunch rest. Sadly in the world we cannot control others and their not-so-child-friendly stances, and there are going to be days where it's just all too much for the little ones. Yeah, he probably "got" the non-child-friendly vibes, (which always made me cranky, which in turn made my daughter more upset, until I learned to either let it slide or call people on it.)
I think talking about it the next day when things have calmed is useful--but not too much. From what I understand, just a few phrases are all a 7 yo can developmentally handle--not huge long conversations. So I think you were on the right track with not "putting thing sin his mouth." And I think you needn't feel like you failed him--it sounds like you supported him. Be well & good luck--Shannon B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~For my dd, the key is getting on her level, and seeing the
experience through her eyes. I'm not always right about my assumptions
re: why she did something (in this case, I thought she might just be
exploring the sharpness of the scissors, or how it would feel to push
them through the fabric.~~
Once upon a time, Jalen cut a hole in our couch. When I saw it I said
"So tell me about this" and pointed at the hole. It was a very calm
"tell me..." so he told me how he could feel something inside the
couch but he couldn't see what it was, so he cut it open to find out
what was inside. It was the foam of course. Curiosity often leads to
some interesting exploration!!
I simply told him that next time he was really curious about what was
inside, could he please come get me because there were ways to see
inside of stuff without cutting it.:) I showed him the zipper on the
back of the cushion at that point too....sigh.
There are so many things that Jalen has done that may seem
destructive, but it's all about learning and exploration. Without
getting on his level and trying to understand, I never would have seen
it through his eyes.
A more recent "exploration" was burning out the garage door motor,
because he stood on it over and over and hit the open button....so it
would carry him UP. sigh to the tenth power. He's so dang interesting
and curious, I adore that kid! But if I looked at it as "bad behavior"
it would do nothing for our relationship and seriously damage his
method of learning.
I loved your example of getting into her world and understanding,
rather than judging the behavior. That was really great to read about.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
experience through her eyes. I'm not always right about my assumptions
re: why she did something (in this case, I thought she might just be
exploring the sharpness of the scissors, or how it would feel to push
them through the fabric.~~
Once upon a time, Jalen cut a hole in our couch. When I saw it I said
"So tell me about this" and pointed at the hole. It was a very calm
"tell me..." so he told me how he could feel something inside the
couch but he couldn't see what it was, so he cut it open to find out
what was inside. It was the foam of course. Curiosity often leads to
some interesting exploration!!
I simply told him that next time he was really curious about what was
inside, could he please come get me because there were ways to see
inside of stuff without cutting it.:) I showed him the zipper on the
back of the cushion at that point too....sigh.
There are so many things that Jalen has done that may seem
destructive, but it's all about learning and exploration. Without
getting on his level and trying to understand, I never would have seen
it through his eyes.
A more recent "exploration" was burning out the garage door motor,
because he stood on it over and over and hit the open button....so it
would carry him UP. sigh to the tenth power. He's so dang interesting
and curious, I adore that kid! But if I looked at it as "bad behavior"
it would do nothing for our relationship and seriously damage his
method of learning.
I loved your example of getting into her world and understanding,
rather than judging the behavior. That was really great to read about.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Kelly
A more recent "exploration" was burning out the garage door motor,
this sounds like it was worth it. And I know (because at the moment
we are very tight financially) that this kind of thing represents
some financial challenges for many of us, but what is that compared
to what it means to a child to be able to explore his world freely,
because he knows without having to think about it, that he is loved
and valued? Priceless. Thanks for giving us (me, anyway!) such a good
belly laugh!
Kelly
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> because he stood on it over and over and hit the open button....soit
> would carry him UP.ROTFLMAO!!! This is so funny! Sorry about your door motor, but jeez,
this sounds like it was worth it. And I know (because at the moment
we are very tight financially) that this kind of thing represents
some financial challenges for many of us, but what is that compared
to what it means to a child to be able to explore his world freely,
because he knows without having to think about it, that he is loved
and valued? Priceless. Thanks for giving us (me, anyway!) such a good
belly laugh!
Kelly
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>assumptions
> ~~For my dd, the key is getting on her level, and seeing the
> experience through her eyes. I'm not always right about my
> re: why she did something (in this case, I thought she might just bepush
> exploring the sharpness of the scissors, or how it would feel to
> them through the fabric.~~said
>
>
> Once upon a time, Jalen cut a hole in our couch. When I saw it I
> "So tell me about this" and pointed at the hole. It was a very calmwas
> "tell me..." so he told me how he could feel something inside the
> couch but he couldn't see what it was, so he cut it open to find out
> what was inside. It was the foam of course. Curiosity often leads to
> some interesting exploration!!
>
> I simply told him that next time he was really curious about what
> inside, could he please come get me because there were ways to seeseen
> inside of stuff without cutting it.:) I showed him the zipper on the
> back of the cushion at that point too....sigh.
>
> There are so many things that Jalen has done that may seem
> destructive, but it's all about learning and exploration. Without
> getting on his level and trying to understand, I never would have
> it through his eyes.it
>
> A more recent "exploration" was burning out the garage door motor,
> because he stood on it over and over and hit the open button....so
> would carry him UP. sigh to the tenth power. He's so danginteresting
> and curious, I adore that kid! But if I looked at it as "badbehavior"
> it would do nothing for our relationship and seriously damage hisabout.
> method of learning.
>
> I loved your example of getting into her world and understanding,
> rather than judging the behavior. That was really great to read
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
Melissa
And I have to laugh, because we just bought a new ceiling fan. The
girls wanted to swing on it like they see on TV, so they threw a
towel over the blade, flipped it to high, jumped off the bed and were
utterly shocked to plummet to the floor. Just to be certain, they did
it again....lol!
I *could* have been angry, but really it was fun to see that they
were exploring truth in the media (to refer to another string) And
even though I wasn't there, i could just visualize their surprise at
it NOT working.
Even funnier is that it was a few days later before I realized.
Spacey mom.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
girls wanted to swing on it like they see on TV, so they threw a
towel over the blade, flipped it to high, jumped off the bed and were
utterly shocked to plummet to the floor. Just to be certain, they did
it again....lol!
I *could* have been angry, but really it was fun to see that they
were exploring truth in the media (to refer to another string) And
even though I wasn't there, i could just visualize their surprise at
it NOT working.
Even funnier is that it was a few days later before I realized.
Spacey mom.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Aug 4, 2007, at 9:28 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> A more recent "exploration" was burning out the garage door motor,
> because he stood on it over and over and hit the open button....so it
> would carry him UP. sigh to the tenth power. He's so dang interesting
> and curious, I adore that kid! But if I looked at it as "bad behavior"
> it would do nothing for our relationship and seriously damage his
> method of learning.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
We have the 'Franken-futon', which is what the girls call our couch.
There are so many holes and slices that have been stitched
together...it looks like frankenstein! Dh wants to buy another cover
for it, but I think it'd be better to wait until we're seriously
losing stuffing on a regular basis.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
There are so many holes and slices that have been stitched
together...it looks like frankenstein! Dh wants to buy another cover
for it, but I think it'd be better to wait until we're seriously
losing stuffing on a regular basis.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (12), Breanna (10), Emily (8), Rachel (7), Sam (6), Dan
(4), and Avari Rose (19 months)
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Aug 4, 2007, at 9:28 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
> Once upon a time, Jalen cut a hole in our couch. When I saw it I said
> "So tell me about this" and pointed at the hole. It was a very calm
> "tell me..." so he told me how he could feel something inside the
> couch but he couldn't see what it was, so he cut it open to find out
> what was inside. It was the foam of course. Curiosity often leads to
> some interesting exploration!!
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
I have seen some kids respond well when the person trying to help also
uses a stuffie... it's less threatening to have the two stuffies
talking about being angry and how to work it out. My daughter who
struggles with autism used to let her Piglet stuffie talk for her
when she was afraid ...she would use some of the stock lines "Life is
hard when you are such a small animal!" I would grab whatever
stuffie was nearby and empathize with Piglet and pet him and give him
cuddles. When she was angry she would typically pick up another
stuffie... perhaps a dog, or wolf (something I think she felt was more
threatening) and let it snarl and threaten until I could have my
stuffie commiserate with hers. I would say things that I thought she
might be feeling "I'm upset when someone takes my toy" or " I don't
like loud noises" There are so many times when they don't want a
solution but just someone to feel their frustration and understand
that they need to be upset right then.
Hope this helps!
Lisa Blocker
uses a stuffie... it's less threatening to have the two stuffies
talking about being angry and how to work it out. My daughter who
struggles with autism used to let her Piglet stuffie talk for her
when she was afraid ...she would use some of the stock lines "Life is
hard when you are such a small animal!" I would grab whatever
stuffie was nearby and empathize with Piglet and pet him and give him
cuddles. When she was angry she would typically pick up another
stuffie... perhaps a dog, or wolf (something I think she felt was more
threatening) and let it snarl and threaten until I could have my
stuffie commiserate with hers. I would say things that I thought she
might be feeling "I'm upset when someone takes my toy" or " I don't
like loud noises" There are so many times when they don't want a
solution but just someone to feel their frustration and understand
that they need to be upset right then.
Hope this helps!
Lisa Blocker
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ourhome@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Karen - so when he did the dog teddy thing, what do you
> think I could have done to help him? Sarah
>
Lisa
Oh Ren I needed to hear this!! Jack is so intense and so dang bright!
He is exhausting with his constant exploration, building, tearing
apart and so forth. It's frustrating to my husband who was the type
of child who never broke anything, never lost any piece to anything,
never even damaged the original boxes that his toys came in.
My grandmother says Jack is like my dad in that he must see how it
works, what it can do , how it can do it better and with a bigger
bang! My father was given a child's tool set for Christmas one year
in the time when children's toys were fully functional small versions
of adult things. There were 7 children in his family so he asked if
he could go into their parlor to be alone for a bit (picture busy
house of 7 children with all the visiting cousins running around!)she
checked on him after a bit and found that he had sawed the legs off
of an end table!!! Luckily my grandfather was in the furniture
business and of the 7 children 5 were boys so was unphased but
Grandmother was not happy with her table being redecorated!!
Jack and a friend once emptied an entire new 5 gallon water bottle
from our water cooler. Jack attached our fish aquarium siphon funnel
to longer tubing and had his friend filling the funnel (funny how it
didn't occur to his friend to wonder where the water was going he was
so enjoying the filling and emptying!) Jack sprayed our whole kitchen
including our poor guinea pigs' cage... they were literally treading
water when I happened upon the scene (one of those I have to grab
something from upstairs I will be right back moments!) It was
hilarious! It took hours to clean up... and the water was COLD but it
was a hot summer day so who can complain??? I did find all the
uneven spots in my kitchen floor! Anyway it's nice to hear other
little people that are wired similarly do the same things! My husband
sometimes attaches destructive intent which is a hard discussion.
It's really hard sometimes when the two of them are wired so
differently!
Jack also frequently paints himself ... someone was complaining about
mud... try having a child running through the house covered in blue
paint! HA!! I try to remember how these times are so fleeting...
soon he will be grown up and not want to cuddle while covered in his
latest experiment!
Lisa Blocker
He is exhausting with his constant exploration, building, tearing
apart and so forth. It's frustrating to my husband who was the type
of child who never broke anything, never lost any piece to anything,
never even damaged the original boxes that his toys came in.
My grandmother says Jack is like my dad in that he must see how it
works, what it can do , how it can do it better and with a bigger
bang! My father was given a child's tool set for Christmas one year
in the time when children's toys were fully functional small versions
of adult things. There were 7 children in his family so he asked if
he could go into their parlor to be alone for a bit (picture busy
house of 7 children with all the visiting cousins running around!)she
checked on him after a bit and found that he had sawed the legs off
of an end table!!! Luckily my grandfather was in the furniture
business and of the 7 children 5 were boys so was unphased but
Grandmother was not happy with her table being redecorated!!
Jack and a friend once emptied an entire new 5 gallon water bottle
from our water cooler. Jack attached our fish aquarium siphon funnel
to longer tubing and had his friend filling the funnel (funny how it
didn't occur to his friend to wonder where the water was going he was
so enjoying the filling and emptying!) Jack sprayed our whole kitchen
including our poor guinea pigs' cage... they were literally treading
water when I happened upon the scene (one of those I have to grab
something from upstairs I will be right back moments!) It was
hilarious! It took hours to clean up... and the water was COLD but it
was a hot summer day so who can complain??? I did find all the
uneven spots in my kitchen floor! Anyway it's nice to hear other
little people that are wired similarly do the same things! My husband
sometimes attaches destructive intent which is a hard discussion.
It's really hard sometimes when the two of them are wired so
differently!
Jack also frequently paints himself ... someone was complaining about
mud... try having a child running through the house covered in blue
paint! HA!! I try to remember how these times are so fleeting...
soon he will be grown up and not want to cuddle while covered in his
latest experiment!
Lisa Blocker
>
> Once upon a time, Jalen cut a hole in our couch. When I saw it I said
> "So tell me about this" and pointed at the hole. It was a very calm
> "tell me..." so he told me how he could feel something inside the
> couch but he couldn't see what it was, so he cut it open to find out
> what was inside. It was the foam of course. Curiosity often leads to
> some interesting exploration!!
>
> I simply told him that next time he was really curious about what was
> inside, could he please come get me because there were ways to see
> inside of stuff without cutting it.:) I showed him the zipper on the
> back of the cushion at that point too....sigh.
>
> There are so many things that Jalen has done that may seem
> destructive, but it's all about learning and exploration. Without
> getting on his level and trying to understand, I never would have seen
> it through his eyes.
>
> A more recent "exploration" was burning out the garage door motor,
> because he stood on it over and over and hit the open button....so it
> would carry him UP. sigh to the tenth power. He's so dang interesting
> and curious, I adore that kid! But if I looked at it as "bad behavior"
> it would do nothing for our relationship and seriously damage his
> method of learning.
>
> I loved your example of getting into her world and understanding,
> rather than judging the behavior. That was really great to read about.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
[email protected]
>>With me he is a very good communicator but I think he cannotdescribe his feelings, a conversation about the dogs I think would
have gone nowhere – I would have been talking and "putting things into
his mouth" and that's about it. So I didn't talk about it any more
and I feel I let him down. Took him another 2 hours to get off to sleep.
Any ideas anyone please. I was really upset about not being able to
help him with the "meltdown". But the whole day contains lots of
other issues as well. Please be gentle as we aren't unschooling at
the moment so I only know and understand what I've read on here and
couple of other boards.<<
Sarah, I actually think it's fine. He had a good, but tiring and
occasionally stressful day. When he fell apart you made a point to be present for him.
And, far from not communicating his feelings -- I think he did an awesome job!
He just didn't do it in calm "I" words explaining "I was really frightened
of the doggies, Ma-Ma!"
He found a really effective way to process his feelings of exhaustion and
fear through play. I know you wanted to fix it and make him feel better, but he
already knew how to help himself feel better. He just needed you to be there.
And you refrained from getting in the way or saying condescending things.
He's only 7. He has enough understanding of himself to develop a strategy to
deal with stress and fear that gets the feelings out without hitting or
hurting other people, even when the baby takes his water. He isn't internalizing
it either. I know many adults nowhere near that evolved. And it sounds like
you and your husband did a good job making sure everyone was taken care of.
Kathryn
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Lisa" <jlblock01@...> wrote:
far...especially when Mo decided to pick up her cat. Yikes. Then there
was the day she was sick *and* decided to paint her face this sort of
yellowy brown color... My mantra that day was "its not what it looks
like".
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
>> Jack also frequently paints himself ... someone was complainingabout
> mud... try having a child running through the house covered in blueHow 'bout mud, paint and sunscreen? That's my favorite so
> paint!
far...especially when Mo decided to pick up her cat. Yikes. Then there
was the day she was sick *and* decided to paint her face this sort of
yellowy brown color... My mantra that day was "its not what it looks
like".
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Meredith
These thoughts are somewhat random, so I appologise if they're
confusing:
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ourhome@...>
wrote:
DS1 has not experienced this directly
these sorts of things really happen. It seems like you're inviting a
whole lot of stress to try to avoid some nastiness - and maybe doing
more harm in the long run than the occasional nastiness itself
would. Being well-behaved (as a child or an adult) certainly doesn't
guarantee that other people will be kind or gracious. I'd rather
give my kids the message that "its nice to be considerate, but
sometimes people are just grumpy". After all, sometimes *I'm* just
plain grumpy, and my kids need to know that its not bc of something
they've said or done.
Is it possible to spread this kind of work out over several days
rather than do it all at once? Or maybe *just* do it in the morning
*or* the afternoon but not the whole day?
I would certainly offer a break in the middle of the day if there
were some reason why the recycling was a whole day affair (I can
think of several, especially with a second kid in the picture) but I
also wouldn't insist on it if he were so excited as to not want a
break. In that case, though, I would be really aware that he might
not be at his best in the afternoon and think about ways to help
with that. I might also look for ways to get some small breaks in
during the afternoon - a stop for ice cream comes to mind, or a
detour through a playground.
they doing or saying something rude in reply? My experiences with Mo
and Ray are that they have both been considered rude by various
people at various times... usually people who think they need to be
taught a lesson about something or other, some well-meaning, even.
Depending on the person and situation, I might just be a supportive
presence, have a word in my kid's ear, or tell the adult to back
off - either gently or not. Its pretty nuancy and most adults don't
realize how often children are rude as a reflection of the way
adults treat them in the first place.
Recently our neighbors had a houseguest who liked to play with Mo,
but also thought he needed to teach her something every time he saw
her. Bc Mo has no interest in being "taught" she would be pretty
rude to him - well, really, from her pov, he was being obnoxious by
trying to impose some weird agenda on her fun. I tried a few
different approaches with him, since Mo would often get frustrated
to the point of slapping him, but eventually just stood by my kid -
yeah, dude, I'da smacked you, too if you'd done that to me. Not very
gentle on my part, but there comes a point where supporting my kid
is waaaaay more important than being nice to another grown-up.
When I expect that my kid is going to have regular interactions with
a given adult, I'm more likely to go gently and try to foster some
understanding between that adult and my kid - do more explaining,
translating, facilitating, distracting... whatever seems appropriate
in terms of smoothing things over. I do that at the "swimmin' hole"
we go to, for example, bc its on property shared by several adults,
some of whom prefer "well behaved" children. So I plan on having
ways to distract Mo when she gets a bit over-the-top, *and* I chat
with some of the less kid-friendly (in my view not theirs) adults
when things are going smoothly. They may still think my kid is rude,
but she's not rude in a way that's going to get her banned from the
swimmin' hole, and they feel comfortable with *me* - which is a
bigger issue than it might seem.
--the dog thing--
provide other kinds of support. I'm fortunate in that Mo will tell
me to be quiet when I guess wrong ;)
With Mo I often find that saying "I'm sorry xyz happened" or "I'm
sorry that was scary" or whatever, is all she wants to hear.
Anything else will push her further into a meltdown. But sometimes a
little extra information *will* change the way she feels about a
situation, especially if her reaction is based on a misunderstanding
on her part and I can clear that up quickly.
more thing. That happens. With some kids it happens alot, but I
think most people of all ages experience this now and again. I've
fallen apart over a sink of dishes just bc it was "the last straw".
George has an entire vocabulary he seems to save for "last straw"
moments (half of which seems to consist of Aaaaarrrrrggghh!).
communicating pretty clearly, considering the circumstances, and you
followed his cues as best you could. Handling those sorts of
situations depends a whole lot on a child's personality. Someone
else mentioned getting down at eye level...that would probably get
you a black eye around here. Mo usually needs a little solitude and
will seek it (and defend it) herself. There's a whole range of
possibilities in between there, so observing and trying to follow
your kid's cues is pretty important.
might be holding about what "good parenting" looks like. Do you have
a mental image, somewhere, of a loving mom holding and comforting a
crying child? If that's Not what your kid needs in the moment, then
holding on to that ideal isn't helping you - you end up beating
yourself up for doing the right thing! Oops.
And just to complicate your life, your other kid may be different in
this regard.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
confusing:
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ourhome@...>
wrote:
>> 5. Unfortunately the area/circumstances where we live meanstrangers
> can unpredictably be aggressive/angry for no reason<snip>
DS1 has not experienced this directly
> but it has happened in the past in his hearing although he may havebeginning to
> been too busy with other things to notice. So sadly I am
> bend his world view a little and squeeze his natural childishnesswouldn't
> (nagging how "we need to try and be very quiet as some people
> like for us to make noise in their yard", "we must try hard not tosomeone"
> brush past people in the street as we don't want to disturb
> ie get a mouthful of vile abuse etc ? these are just a few examplesI think it would be useful to try to assess very carefully how often
> but it comes up loads sadly). This is all in order to keep us safe
> from physical or verbal abuse. ?
these sorts of things really happen. It seems like you're inviting a
whole lot of stress to try to avoid some nastiness - and maybe doing
more harm in the long run than the occasional nastiness itself
would. Being well-behaved (as a child or an adult) certainly doesn't
guarantee that other people will be kind or gracious. I'd rather
give my kids the message that "its nice to be considerate, but
sometimes people are just grumpy". After all, sometimes *I'm* just
plain grumpy, and my kids need to know that its not bc of something
they've said or done.
> 1. Naturally all the work was physically very tiring for him.(mistake
>
> 2. He usually plays alone in his room for an hour after lunch as he
> really starts to flag and get ratty ?yesterday we skipped it
> with hindsight I think) as he was enjoying the recycling bottlesso much.
Is it possible to spread this kind of work out over several days
rather than do it all at once? Or maybe *just* do it in the morning
*or* the afternoon but not the whole day?
I would certainly offer a break in the middle of the day if there
were some reason why the recycling was a whole day affair (I can
think of several, especially with a second kid in the picture) but I
also wouldn't insist on it if he were so excited as to not want a
break. In that case, though, I would be really aware that he might
not be at his best in the afternoon and think about ways to help
with that. I might also look for ways to get some small breaks in
during the afternoon - a stop for ice cream comes to mind, or a
detour through a playground.
> he is trying to engage withthink
> other children and adults but is not very skilled at it. So I
> it is hard work for him emotionally and mentally (and even harderfor
> me to watch as his approaches are usually quite "inappropriate"from
> the pov of the other adult who consider him rude).How much of an issue is the pov of the other adults - I mean, are
they doing or saying something rude in reply? My experiences with Mo
and Ray are that they have both been considered rude by various
people at various times... usually people who think they need to be
taught a lesson about something or other, some well-meaning, even.
Depending on the person and situation, I might just be a supportive
presence, have a word in my kid's ear, or tell the adult to back
off - either gently or not. Its pretty nuancy and most adults don't
realize how often children are rude as a reflection of the way
adults treat them in the first place.
Recently our neighbors had a houseguest who liked to play with Mo,
but also thought he needed to teach her something every time he saw
her. Bc Mo has no interest in being "taught" she would be pretty
rude to him - well, really, from her pov, he was being obnoxious by
trying to impose some weird agenda on her fun. I tried a few
different approaches with him, since Mo would often get frustrated
to the point of slapping him, but eventually just stood by my kid -
yeah, dude, I'da smacked you, too if you'd done that to me. Not very
gentle on my part, but there comes a point where supporting my kid
is waaaaay more important than being nice to another grown-up.
When I expect that my kid is going to have regular interactions with
a given adult, I'm more likely to go gently and try to foster some
understanding between that adult and my kid - do more explaining,
translating, facilitating, distracting... whatever seems appropriate
in terms of smoothing things over. I do that at the "swimmin' hole"
we go to, for example, bc its on property shared by several adults,
some of whom prefer "well behaved" children. So I plan on having
ways to distract Mo when she gets a bit over-the-top, *and* I chat
with some of the less kid-friendly (in my view not theirs) adults
when things are going smoothly. They may still think my kid is rude,
but she's not rude in a way that's going to get her banned from the
swimmin' hole, and they feel comfortable with *me* - which is a
bigger issue than it might seem.
--the dog thing--
> Because I thought he wasand
> prob quite afraid this time I told him a little about what they do
> emphasised that they do as the police man says, thinking that alittle
> factual knowledge might help normalise it a bit (I could tell itminutes in
> didn't help and I wonder if I should have said nothing at all ? how
> cld I have better dealt with this? We had about 5 together
> the car.)Sometimes its hard to know when to offer information and when to
provide other kinds of support. I'm fortunate in that Mo will tell
me to be quiet when I guess wrong ;)
With Mo I often find that saying "I'm sorry xyz happened" or "I'm
sorry that was scary" or whatever, is all she wants to hear.
Anything else will push her further into a meltdown. But sometimes a
little extra information *will* change the way she feels about a
situation, especially if her reaction is based on a misunderstanding
on her part and I can clear that up quickly.
> 11. We came in the house, I turned my back to hang up my coat andhad a
> immediately DS2 took the water bottle out of DS1s hand. Then he
> complete meltdown.Sounds like a "last straw" scenario. He just couldn't deal with one
more thing. That happens. With some kids it happens alot, but I
think most people of all ages experience this now and again. I've
fallen apart over a sink of dishes just bc it was "the last straw".
George has an entire vocabulary he seems to save for "last straw"
moments (half of which seems to consist of Aaaaarrrrrggghh!).
>I just didn't know what to say or do. He really needed me andIt sounds like you handled it pretty well, actually. He was
> I was paralysed ? I have no clue how I could have helped him manage
> his feelings right then.
communicating pretty clearly, considering the circumstances, and you
followed his cues as best you could. Handling those sorts of
situations depends a whole lot on a child's personality. Someone
else mentioned getting down at eye level...that would probably get
you a black eye around here. Mo usually needs a little solitude and
will seek it (and defend it) herself. There's a whole range of
possibilities in between there, so observing and trying to follow
your kid's cues is pretty important.
> He really needed me andI'd like to invite you to look at some possible expectations you
> I was paralysed
might be holding about what "good parenting" looks like. Do you have
a mental image, somewhere, of a loving mom holding and comforting a
crying child? If that's Not what your kid needs in the moment, then
holding on to that ideal isn't helping you - you end up beating
yourself up for doing the right thing! Oops.
And just to complicate your life, your other kid may be different in
this regard.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
j50yab
Thank you Meredith that was very helpful.
What do I expect of myself in a situation like this? I think I expect
to be able to help him process or deal with the moment. Hold him
maybe if that's what he needs (and it often is), but this time that
wouldn't have been appropriate I don't think.
So, I think my actual question then would be, what could I have said
to the mad teddy (or him if he hadn't used the teddy)? Because I
didn't say anything. So hopefully by giving him room I didn't make
things any worse, but perhaps I could have helped a little more.
One family suggested talking to the teddy which I think would have
been great as it is indirect and keeps the pressure off him. I
wouldn't really have known what to say though.
Sarah
What do I expect of myself in a situation like this? I think I expect
to be able to help him process or deal with the moment. Hold him
maybe if that's what he needs (and it often is), but this time that
wouldn't have been appropriate I don't think.
So, I think my actual question then would be, what could I have said
to the mad teddy (or him if he hadn't used the teddy)? Because I
didn't say anything. So hopefully by giving him room I didn't make
things any worse, but perhaps I could have helped a little more.
One family suggested talking to the teddy which I think would have
been great as it is indirect and keeps the pressure off him. I
wouldn't really have known what to say though.
Sarah
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/4/07 1:18:07 PM, ourhome@... writes:
anger and fears...
slipping in while kids are occupied...lol...be back later!!
K.
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Thank you Karen - so when he did the dog teddy thing, what do yougut reaction: have a conversation with mr. teddy and ask mr. teddy 'bout his
> think I could have done to help him? Sarah
>
anger and fears...
slipping in while kids are occupied...lol...be back later!!
K.
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]