Unschooling and "No" - Was Snarky Comments and Paintball thread
j50yab
I am really fascinated by this comment by one of the posters on
another thread. In fact I was going to ask a related question about
it when I came on today.
"I think most mainstream parents would have less problems with
unschooling (even radical unschooling or even "unparenting") presented
as "we supervise and interact with our younger kids a lot, and we try
to refuse as little as possible, and when we do set limits, we try to
do that as humanely as possible, explaining as much a possible, and
and with as much compromise as we (the parents) feel is reasonable in
order to support as much of the original intent of the child as
possible, considering the needs and limitations of everyone in the family"
So what is the difference (if any) between "unschooling" and what the
poster says above? There was an example I think in one of the threads
about a little girl who wanted to go to the beach *now* when the beach
is 2 days away. In my own home my son wanted to go out yesterday to a
museum across town (on foot) after we had done errands and when he and
I would be too tired and museum would only be open for about 15
minutes when we got there.
In my mind I am seeing adults who know that the answer to the *stated*
request is "no". Yes there can be examination and reflection on what
are the child's needs/desires/feelings/unstated requests and
suggestions of alternatives etc which may or may not be agreeable to
the child. And as mentioned by the poster I have quoted at the top,
this can all be done honorably, respectfully etc until child's needs
(as best as we can discern them) are met to the best of our ability -
with the child's wishes/development etc at the heart of discussion.
But isn't this still an unstated "no" to the original request? Thank
you for helping me to understand this point.
Sarah
another thread. In fact I was going to ask a related question about
it when I came on today.
"I think most mainstream parents would have less problems with
unschooling (even radical unschooling or even "unparenting") presented
as "we supervise and interact with our younger kids a lot, and we try
to refuse as little as possible, and when we do set limits, we try to
do that as humanely as possible, explaining as much a possible, and
and with as much compromise as we (the parents) feel is reasonable in
order to support as much of the original intent of the child as
possible, considering the needs and limitations of everyone in the family"
So what is the difference (if any) between "unschooling" and what the
poster says above? There was an example I think in one of the threads
about a little girl who wanted to go to the beach *now* when the beach
is 2 days away. In my own home my son wanted to go out yesterday to a
museum across town (on foot) after we had done errands and when he and
I would be too tired and museum would only be open for about 15
minutes when we got there.
In my mind I am seeing adults who know that the answer to the *stated*
request is "no". Yes there can be examination and reflection on what
are the child's needs/desires/feelings/unstated requests and
suggestions of alternatives etc which may or may not be agreeable to
the child. And as mentioned by the poster I have quoted at the top,
this can all be done honorably, respectfully etc until child's needs
(as best as we can discern them) are met to the best of our ability -
with the child's wishes/development etc at the heart of discussion.
But isn't this still an unstated "no" to the original request? Thank
you for helping me to understand this point.
Sarah
Ren Allen
~~
But isn't this still an unstated "no" to the original request?~~
No isn't some tabboo. I've never read from anyone here saying "you
should never, ever say no to your child" only advocating ways to meet
their needs and be able to say yes more.
"No" can be mindful! Last night, in Asheville we were picking up
Trevor from a weekend away (he's 17). We had planned to walk many
blocks up to Pritchard park but Trevor was feeling cruddy with a sore
throat and really wanted to go home right away. Leaving him in the van
for a while wasn't an option he relished. I was having some physical
issues as well.
So....Jalen had his heart set on going to the park. We explained all
the issues we were dealing with, but he really doesn't care for the
most part. He tends to get "stuck" on certain ideas and has a very
difficult time transitioning.
Had this been an area where we could drive close to the park, I would
have done that. It's a many, many block walk with no close parking (we
were lucky to find a spot within three blocks of the original
destination) and it wasn't going to work for that moment.
So yeah, a "no" happened. It does happen. Real life and being sick or
tired or not having money or whatever...it happens. But for us, it's a
"no-for-right-this-second" and we'll find ways to make it work later.
It sucked for Jalen and I wish I could have changed it. Unfortunately
MY physical issue needed new clothes and NOT walking around.:)
I told him how much I wanted to go to the park with him and I was
really sorry it just wasn't going to work out tonight. I explained
that when we come through again we'll make sure and go to the park
first. He's just not developmentally able to handle changes to plans
very well.....it's not easy to tell him "no" but it does happen
occasionally.
That's life. The point is we try and find ways to adapt so everyone
can get what they need. It doesn't always work ideally. But the most
important thing is nobody told him his need for the park was
unreasonable. Everyone was sympathetic. He knows we care about his
desires.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
But isn't this still an unstated "no" to the original request?~~
No isn't some tabboo. I've never read from anyone here saying "you
should never, ever say no to your child" only advocating ways to meet
their needs and be able to say yes more.
"No" can be mindful! Last night, in Asheville we were picking up
Trevor from a weekend away (he's 17). We had planned to walk many
blocks up to Pritchard park but Trevor was feeling cruddy with a sore
throat and really wanted to go home right away. Leaving him in the van
for a while wasn't an option he relished. I was having some physical
issues as well.
So....Jalen had his heart set on going to the park. We explained all
the issues we were dealing with, but he really doesn't care for the
most part. He tends to get "stuck" on certain ideas and has a very
difficult time transitioning.
Had this been an area where we could drive close to the park, I would
have done that. It's a many, many block walk with no close parking (we
were lucky to find a spot within three blocks of the original
destination) and it wasn't going to work for that moment.
So yeah, a "no" happened. It does happen. Real life and being sick or
tired or not having money or whatever...it happens. But for us, it's a
"no-for-right-this-second" and we'll find ways to make it work later.
It sucked for Jalen and I wish I could have changed it. Unfortunately
MY physical issue needed new clothes and NOT walking around.:)
I told him how much I wanted to go to the park with him and I was
really sorry it just wasn't going to work out tonight. I explained
that when we come through again we'll make sure and go to the park
first. He's just not developmentally able to handle changes to plans
very well.....it's not easy to tell him "no" but it does happen
occasionally.
That's life. The point is we try and find ways to adapt so everyone
can get what they need. It doesn't always work ideally. But the most
important thing is nobody told him his need for the park was
unreasonable. Everyone was sympathetic. He knows we care about his
desires.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Manisha Kher
--- j50yab <ummhamzah99@...> wrote:
"world view". If I start from a place that says my job
is to meet my kid's needs, then I try harder to meet
their needs. On the other hand, if my starting place
is that we can't always get what we want and my kids
have to learn to deal with that then I won't try as
hard to meet my kid's needs. If you take an example of
me saying no, it would be hard to tell which place I'm
coming from. But I think kids do sense the difference.
They sense whether you're on their team or an
authority figure to limit them.
My brother-in-law and his wife are very authoritarian.
They used to live in CA and a few days ago they moved
to NJ. Their daughter (14) wanted to spend the rest of
the summer in CA and she was not allowed to. There was
no exploration of possibilities of friends she could
stay with. Heck, her parents did not even acknowledge
the idea that it would be boring for her to spend the
summer where she knows no-one. They were not one bit
sympathetic. It was just a plain, blunt no that was
repeated again and again. All of this conversation (if
it can be called that) happenned at our house and it
was horrid.
I really can't say whether in the same situation I
would've let my daughter stay across the country or
not. Maybe my answer also would've been no. But I
would've tried a lot harder to find a place for her to
stay. And I believe that desire to try and meet her
needs makes a difference in my relationship with my
daughter.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
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>I think a lot has to to with attitude and what I call
> But isn't this still an unstated "no" to the
> original request?
"world view". If I start from a place that says my job
is to meet my kid's needs, then I try harder to meet
their needs. On the other hand, if my starting place
is that we can't always get what we want and my kids
have to learn to deal with that then I won't try as
hard to meet my kid's needs. If you take an example of
me saying no, it would be hard to tell which place I'm
coming from. But I think kids do sense the difference.
They sense whether you're on their team or an
authority figure to limit them.
My brother-in-law and his wife are very authoritarian.
They used to live in CA and a few days ago they moved
to NJ. Their daughter (14) wanted to spend the rest of
the summer in CA and she was not allowed to. There was
no exploration of possibilities of friends she could
stay with. Heck, her parents did not even acknowledge
the idea that it would be boring for her to spend the
summer where she knows no-one. They were not one bit
sympathetic. It was just a plain, blunt no that was
repeated again and again. All of this conversation (if
it can be called that) happenned at our house and it
was horrid.
I really can't say whether in the same situation I
would've let my daughter stay across the country or
not. Maybe my answer also would've been no. But I
would've tried a lot harder to find a place for her to
stay. And I believe that desire to try and meet her
needs makes a difference in my relationship with my
daughter.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
to help our kids find solutions that they can feel good about, even
when those solutions doen't look anything like the original request.
That includes helping our kids feel loved and supported in the face
of disappointment. That's something that's easy to lose sight of if
a parent is focused on limits and lessons, on the idea that "kids
need to learn they can't always get what they want". Kids do learn
that. As unschoolers, we can help them learn about love and trust
and mutual support and kindness and grace and self-esteem at the
same time.
Arun (http://theparentingpit.com/)has written some wonderful things
on the subject of moving away from the idea that he needed to either
prevent or distract from his dd's disappointments. I recommend his
blog to anyone looking for a dads-eye-view, as well.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>But the mostThis is a really important point. We have a tremendous opportunity
> important thing is nobody told him his need for the park was
> unreasonable. Everyone was sympathetic. He knows we care about his
> desires.
to help our kids find solutions that they can feel good about, even
when those solutions doen't look anything like the original request.
That includes helping our kids feel loved and supported in the face
of disappointment. That's something that's easy to lose sight of if
a parent is focused on limits and lessons, on the idea that "kids
need to learn they can't always get what they want". Kids do learn
that. As unschoolers, we can help them learn about love and trust
and mutual support and kindness and grace and self-esteem at the
same time.
Arun (http://theparentingpit.com/)has written some wonderful things
on the subject of moving away from the idea that he needed to either
prevent or distract from his dd's disappointments. I recommend his
blog to anyone looking for a dads-eye-view, as well.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Manisha Kher <m_kher@...>
I really can't say whether in the same situation I
would've let my daughter stay across the country or
not. Maybe my answer also would've been no. But I
would've tried a lot harder to find a place for her to
stay. And I believe that desire to try and meet her
needs makes a difference in my relationship with my
daughter.
-=-=-=-=
I think one thing that's not been mentioned is that, because we spend
SOOO much time helping our children and saying "yes" whenever we can,
when we DO find "no" to be the only answer, our children know it's not
arbitrary and that we've thought about it. They understand that we
*would* have said "yes" if at all possible. Mine take "no" as a
reasonable answer. "No" happens---but it's not arbitrary.
Mine also are encouraged to think of another option which we WILL
consider. Sometimes the answer IS "no"---but not until after we have
exhausted all possiblilities.
But because this is "natural" for them, they accept "no" as real and as
the last resort.
BIG difference to a child who hears "no" as the answer to any request.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
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from AOL at AOL.com.
From: Manisha Kher <m_kher@...>
I really can't say whether in the same situation I
would've let my daughter stay across the country or
not. Maybe my answer also would've been no. But I
would've tried a lot harder to find a place for her to
stay. And I believe that desire to try and meet her
needs makes a difference in my relationship with my
daughter.
-=-=-=-=
I think one thing that's not been mentioned is that, because we spend
SOOO much time helping our children and saying "yes" whenever we can,
when we DO find "no" to be the only answer, our children know it's not
arbitrary and that we've thought about it. They understand that we
*would* have said "yes" if at all possible. Mine take "no" as a
reasonable answer. "No" happens---but it's not arbitrary.
Mine also are encouraged to think of another option which we WILL
consider. Sometimes the answer IS "no"---but not until after we have
exhausted all possiblilities.
But because this is "natural" for them, they accept "no" as real and as
the last resort.
BIG difference to a child who hears "no" as the answer to any request.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ummhamzah99@...>
wrote:
accurately "I'm really sorry but that's not possible". The
difference between radical unschooling and "gentle discipline"
though, is a shift in focus away from the ideas of limits and saying
no and *toward* the ideas of facilitation and partnership. Its a
conceptual shift that effects the way we interact with our kids on a
daily basis and over the long term.
but there's a significant degree of obfuscation there. Part of the
unschooling journey involves stretching the idea of "reasonable".
My school-at-home girlfriend believes its "reasonable" that her 7yo
should obey her promptly since she can never know if what her
parents say is urgent. That's not "reasonable" from an unschooling
pov. So a statement like the above doesn't further anyone's
understanding of radical unschooling. Its a placating statement,
useful in some social situations, but not a terribly informative
one.
instance - but in a sense its not *my* answer, its a statement of
geography. TN is not located near an ocean.
The trouble comes when a parent "knows" the answer is no without
really considering all the possibilities. Automatic or knee-jerk
nos. We're socialized to produce those nos first. That kind of
behavior is modled for us, parents, every time we interact with
almost any other family.
That's a big part of my reluctance to say "of course its okay to say
no sometimes". It takes a lot of practice to say "yes" first. It
takes stopping and thinking Every Time, re-examining each and every
decision, every "no" and "not now". Until you do that (generic you,
not personal) you don't realize how few of those limits you've
really thought about and how many you've swallowed hook, line and
sinker, from your own parents and the world around you. When you
start to realize that, its humbling.
It takes even more time and practice to actively involve childen in
decision making - especially for those of us (true confession, here)
who like to think we're good at solving problems and coming up with
solutions. It takes a good dose of personal discipline and humility
to trust that our kids can come up with ideas every bit as good as
our own - even younger kids. Really. It takes time and patience and
the willingness to say "well, I f#ed that up..." - not just in our
heads but to our kids - and try again. And again.
The biggest problem with that statement is its not really about
people in relationships, its about behavior. I'd far rather say "I
enjoy my kids' company and seek to support their passions every
day!" Getting There - to joyful and passionate living with children -
that's the crux of unschooling. That's what makes it Radical.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
wrote:
>There was an example I think in one of the threadsbeach
> about a little girl who wanted to go to the beach *now* when the
> is 2 days away....It was a pretty clearly stated "no" actually :) or more
> But isn't this still an unstated "no" to the original request?
accurately "I'm really sorry but that's not possible". The
difference between radical unschooling and "gentle discipline"
though, is a shift in focus away from the ideas of limits and saying
no and *toward* the ideas of facilitation and partnership. Its a
conceptual shift that effects the way we interact with our kids on a
daily basis and over the long term.
>... with as much compromise as we (the parents) feel is reasonableI have certainly made statements like this to conventional parents,
but there's a significant degree of obfuscation there. Part of the
unschooling journey involves stretching the idea of "reasonable".
My school-at-home girlfriend believes its "reasonable" that her 7yo
should obey her promptly since she can never know if what her
parents say is urgent. That's not "reasonable" from an unschooling
pov. So a statement like the above doesn't further anyone's
understanding of radical unschooling. Its a placating statement,
useful in some social situations, but not a terribly informative
one.
> In my mind I am seeing adults who know that the answer to the*stated*
> request is "no".Sometimes the answer *is* no - that 2day drive to the beach, for
instance - but in a sense its not *my* answer, its a statement of
geography. TN is not located near an ocean.
The trouble comes when a parent "knows" the answer is no without
really considering all the possibilities. Automatic or knee-jerk
nos. We're socialized to produce those nos first. That kind of
behavior is modled for us, parents, every time we interact with
almost any other family.
That's a big part of my reluctance to say "of course its okay to say
no sometimes". It takes a lot of practice to say "yes" first. It
takes stopping and thinking Every Time, re-examining each and every
decision, every "no" and "not now". Until you do that (generic you,
not personal) you don't realize how few of those limits you've
really thought about and how many you've swallowed hook, line and
sinker, from your own parents and the world around you. When you
start to realize that, its humbling.
It takes even more time and practice to actively involve childen in
decision making - especially for those of us (true confession, here)
who like to think we're good at solving problems and coming up with
solutions. It takes a good dose of personal discipline and humility
to trust that our kids can come up with ideas every bit as good as
our own - even younger kids. Really. It takes time and patience and
the willingness to say "well, I f#ed that up..." - not just in our
heads but to our kids - and try again. And again.
> "we supervise and interact with our younger kids a lot, and we tryto
> to refuse as little as possible, and when we do set limits, we try
> do that as humanely as possible, explaining as much a possible, andin
> and with as much compromise as we (the parents) feel is reasonable
> order to support as much of the original intent of the child asfamily"
> possible, considering the needs and limitations of everyone in the
The biggest problem with that statement is its not really about
people in relationships, its about behavior. I'd far rather say "I
enjoy my kids' company and seek to support their passions every
day!" Getting There - to joyful and passionate living with children -
that's the crux of unschooling. That's what makes it Radical.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
j50yab
grrr - I just deleted a long post, will try again
Some of it I get and some of it I really can't see the difference
between traditional gentle parenting and unschooling. For example
(pheww took me ages to find it again)
"For some people, living in a world of implicit limits may even seem
unschooling. Its not what radical unschoolers are trying to express.
What this describes is parents manipulating children and that's a
different matter."
My question is, how is what unschoolers do in this situation not
manipulating if traditional but gentle parenting is manipulating? In
both cases something will come up, the requested thing won't be
allowed, a discussion about options (forget the frowning bit) will
follow, and hopefully an agreeable solution will be reached. So
what's the difference? You'll want an example so let's say, for
example, you've just varnished the deck and it's still wet, and your
child wants to chalk on it right now. For both families that just
isn't going to be possible, both will discuss options and in both
cases there might be an happier outcome (eg child happily chalks on
the outside wall) or a less happy outcome (child has a screaming fit
because they really want to do it right now and can't accept any
discussion of alternatives). So where's the difference? (except
perhaps a difference in how the parents might deal with the screaming
fit child)
Perhaps the difference is in the intentions of the parent? Isn't that
very obscure from the child's point of view? Why does it matter if the
conversations and outcomes are the same but the parent has a slightly
different slant on it?
Or maybe it's to do with the building of a relationship of trust from
the point of view of the child? Ie, the traditionally gently parented
child might be aware and begrudge in the discussion that the parents
are trying to work round to the child doing something other than what
they want to do. But with the unschooled child they trust that the
parent is trying to work something out sincerely with the child's
interests at heart?
See, now I'm lost again because of course the traditional parents will
also have the child's interests at the heart of their discussions, so
why would the child see it any differently? And also, surely the
unschooled child, just like the traditionally parented child, will
sometimes get mad at the parents because for whatever reason it just
isn't possible for them to do the thing they want when they want to do
it eg chalking on the wet deck?
Sarah
Some of it I get and some of it I really can't see the difference
between traditional gentle parenting and unschooling. For example
(pheww took me ages to find it again)
"For some people, living in a world of implicit limits may even seem
> worse than living in a world of explicit limits -- since you neverknow as a
> kid when you will get a "discussion" or "frown" (punishments fromsome kids'
> point of view?) for breaking an implicit rule or passing aninvisible fence
> you never knew was there.This is a big part of what I mean by "confusion". This isn't
unschooling. Its not what radical unschoolers are trying to express.
What this describes is parents manipulating children and that's a
different matter."
My question is, how is what unschoolers do in this situation not
manipulating if traditional but gentle parenting is manipulating? In
both cases something will come up, the requested thing won't be
allowed, a discussion about options (forget the frowning bit) will
follow, and hopefully an agreeable solution will be reached. So
what's the difference? You'll want an example so let's say, for
example, you've just varnished the deck and it's still wet, and your
child wants to chalk on it right now. For both families that just
isn't going to be possible, both will discuss options and in both
cases there might be an happier outcome (eg child happily chalks on
the outside wall) or a less happy outcome (child has a screaming fit
because they really want to do it right now and can't accept any
discussion of alternatives). So where's the difference? (except
perhaps a difference in how the parents might deal with the screaming
fit child)
Perhaps the difference is in the intentions of the parent? Isn't that
very obscure from the child's point of view? Why does it matter if the
conversations and outcomes are the same but the parent has a slightly
different slant on it?
Or maybe it's to do with the building of a relationship of trust from
the point of view of the child? Ie, the traditionally gently parented
child might be aware and begrudge in the discussion that the parents
are trying to work round to the child doing something other than what
they want to do. But with the unschooled child they trust that the
parent is trying to work something out sincerely with the child's
interests at heart?
See, now I'm lost again because of course the traditional parents will
also have the child's interests at the heart of their discussions, so
why would the child see it any differently? And also, surely the
unschooled child, just like the traditionally parented child, will
sometimes get mad at the parents because for whatever reason it just
isn't possible for them to do the thing they want when they want to do
it eg chalking on the wet deck?
Sarah
Ren Allen
~~"No" happens---but it's not arbitrary.~~
Exactly.
I have certain preferences about Jalen not eating foods in my room or
some parts of the house. Its definitely a limit, but its far from
arbitrary.:) He really does not have the ability to keep sticky syrup
off of my stuff, or my floor or EVERYWHERE. We do what we can to get
him mats or little tables...doesn't work.
So, he knows that I really don't like sticky, gooey food on my
personal stuff and he doesn't take it to my room anymore. Its a form
of "no" based on personal boundaries and actual experience. Nothing
arbitrary about it.
He can take it into his room, or eat it at the table first. But if
it's my room I prefer he doesn't bring certain foods down there. Chips
and crackers and apples and such are fine. I really don't like
stepping in a puddle of syrup though.
I think the reason we don't give so many examples of "no" here, is
that is COMMON. Everybody "knows" children need to hear no right?
Wrong. Real life examples work so much better because there are a ton
of creative folks here that can brainstorm alternative soluations to
"no". Once you start thinking that way, the "no's" are few and far
between. When they happen, it's been through a problem solving process
that puts everyone's needs at the forefront.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Exactly.
I have certain preferences about Jalen not eating foods in my room or
some parts of the house. Its definitely a limit, but its far from
arbitrary.:) He really does not have the ability to keep sticky syrup
off of my stuff, or my floor or EVERYWHERE. We do what we can to get
him mats or little tables...doesn't work.
So, he knows that I really don't like sticky, gooey food on my
personal stuff and he doesn't take it to my room anymore. Its a form
of "no" based on personal boundaries and actual experience. Nothing
arbitrary about it.
He can take it into his room, or eat it at the table first. But if
it's my room I prefer he doesn't bring certain foods down there. Chips
and crackers and apples and such are fine. I really don't like
stepping in a puddle of syrup though.
I think the reason we don't give so many examples of "no" here, is
that is COMMON. Everybody "knows" children need to hear no right?
Wrong. Real life examples work so much better because there are a ton
of creative folks here that can brainstorm alternative soluations to
"no". Once you start thinking that way, the "no's" are few and far
between. When they happen, it's been through a problem solving process
that puts everyone's needs at the forefront.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
j50yab
So would you say then that something that will cause what Mum
considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
reason to say "no"?
A small real life example - son covered in mud from head to toe trails
through the house leaving a trail of mud and soil and goes to the
toilet leaving the bathroom and toilet also wet/muddy/soily. Then
goes back out. Mum clears it up a little knowing very well that the
big clean up will have to follow later, then son returns later to be
cleaned up, mud caked clothes, soil dropping everywhere (if you've
never had this experience please realise that the mud and soil can't
be contained even if you remove all clothing outside the house!!!)
taken for a shower, more mud on the bath, tiles, floor, toilet,
washbasin, door frames - you name it - there's going to be mud there.
Couple hours later wants to go in the sand pit - same scenario except
sand is not as messy as mud. Son comes in, clean up procedure
undertaken again - new set of clean clothes (no, the previously worn
muddy clothes can't be worn outside in the mud again - you have to see
it to believe it - a walking mud man).
Few hours later son wants to return to the mud pit. This time it's a
no. Mum (me of course) feels she's been extremely patient already by
not yelling about the first round of mud everywhere and by allowing
the sand pit bonanza.
Or maybe that happened one day and mud boy wants to go in the mud
again the next morning. Understandably (I think) Mum wants to say
"absolutely no way!!!" but instead tries to persuade/interest and if
necessary boss mud boy into not going in the mud today. So he doesn't
go but he's not left with happy feelings about it.
What do you say?
Sarah
considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
reason to say "no"?
A small real life example - son covered in mud from head to toe trails
through the house leaving a trail of mud and soil and goes to the
toilet leaving the bathroom and toilet also wet/muddy/soily. Then
goes back out. Mum clears it up a little knowing very well that the
big clean up will have to follow later, then son returns later to be
cleaned up, mud caked clothes, soil dropping everywhere (if you've
never had this experience please realise that the mud and soil can't
be contained even if you remove all clothing outside the house!!!)
taken for a shower, more mud on the bath, tiles, floor, toilet,
washbasin, door frames - you name it - there's going to be mud there.
Couple hours later wants to go in the sand pit - same scenario except
sand is not as messy as mud. Son comes in, clean up procedure
undertaken again - new set of clean clothes (no, the previously worn
muddy clothes can't be worn outside in the mud again - you have to see
it to believe it - a walking mud man).
Few hours later son wants to return to the mud pit. This time it's a
no. Mum (me of course) feels she's been extremely patient already by
not yelling about the first round of mud everywhere and by allowing
the sand pit bonanza.
Or maybe that happened one day and mud boy wants to go in the mud
again the next morning. Understandably (I think) Mum wants to say
"absolutely no way!!!" but instead tries to persuade/interest and if
necessary boss mud boy into not going in the mud today. So he doesn't
go but he's not left with happy feelings about it.
What do you say?
Sarah
Vickisue Gray
Lol, that's happened here many times!
We just pile up the muddy clothes then wash them.
In our neighborhood, most of my neighbors have
outside showers because of muddy fun and farm work.
My only rule 'Please don't sit on the new white couch.'
I'm just giggling because this has happened so many
times that I put a few of the pics on my blog. http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/MOMflippedisWOW/332681/
It's not an 'unschooling blog' nor a 'homeschooling blog' just a silly place to play.
----- Original Message ----
From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 5:53:47 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling and "No" - Was Snarky Comments and Paintball thread
So would you say then that something that will cause what Mum
considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
reason to say "no"?
A small real life example - son covered in mud from head to toe trails
through the house leaving a trail of mud and soil and goes to the
toilet leaving the bathroom and toilet also wet/muddy/soily. Then
goes back out. Mum clears it up a little knowing very well that the
big clean up will have to follow later, then son returns later to be
cleaned up, mud caked clothes, soil dropping everywhere (if you've
never had this experience please realise that the mud and soil can't
be contained even if you remove all clothing outside the house!!!)
taken for a shower, more mud on the bath, tiles, floor, toilet,
washbasin, door frames - you name it - there's going to be mud there.
Couple hours later wants to go in the sand pit - same scenario except
sand is not as messy as mud. Son comes in, clean up procedure
undertaken again - new set of clean clothes (no, the previously worn
muddy clothes can't be worn outside in the mud again - you have to see
it to believe it - a walking mud man).
Few hours later son wants to return to the mud pit. This time it's a
no. Mum (me of course) feels she's been extremely patient already by
not yelling about the first round of mud everywhere and by allowing
the sand pit bonanza.
Or maybe that happened one day and mud boy wants to go in the mud
again the next morning. Understandably (I think) Mum wants to say
"absolutely no way!!!" but instead tries to persuade/interest and if
necessary boss mud boy into not going in the mud today. So he doesn't
go but he's not left with happy feelings about it.
What do you say?
Sarah
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We just pile up the muddy clothes then wash them.
In our neighborhood, most of my neighbors have
outside showers because of muddy fun and farm work.
My only rule 'Please don't sit on the new white couch.'
I'm just giggling because this has happened so many
times that I put a few of the pics on my blog. http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/MOMflippedisWOW/332681/
It's not an 'unschooling blog' nor a 'homeschooling blog' just a silly place to play.
----- Original Message ----
From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 5:53:47 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling and "No" - Was Snarky Comments and Paintball thread
So would you say then that something that will cause what Mum
considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
reason to say "no"?
A small real life example - son covered in mud from head to toe trails
through the house leaving a trail of mud and soil and goes to the
toilet leaving the bathroom and toilet also wet/muddy/soily. Then
goes back out. Mum clears it up a little knowing very well that the
big clean up will have to follow later, then son returns later to be
cleaned up, mud caked clothes, soil dropping everywhere (if you've
never had this experience please realise that the mud and soil can't
be contained even if you remove all clothing outside the house!!!)
taken for a shower, more mud on the bath, tiles, floor, toilet,
washbasin, door frames - you name it - there's going to be mud there.
Couple hours later wants to go in the sand pit - same scenario except
sand is not as messy as mud. Son comes in, clean up procedure
undertaken again - new set of clean clothes (no, the previously worn
muddy clothes can't be worn outside in the mud again - you have to see
it to believe it - a walking mud man).
Few hours later son wants to return to the mud pit. This time it's a
no. Mum (me of course) feels she's been extremely patient already by
not yelling about the first round of mud everywhere and by allowing
the sand pit bonanza.
Or maybe that happened one day and mud boy wants to go in the mud
again the next morning. Understandably (I think) Mum wants to say
"absolutely no way!!!" but instead tries to persuade/interest and if
necessary boss mud boy into not going in the mud today. So he doesn't
go but he's not left with happy feelings about it.
What do you say?
Sarah
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
And here's mine
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-hyl4g088bqoucMCa.Bn_Rchv?p=612
We just leave the house hooked up and rinse off outside. There used to be days where I
was more worried about mud, but really, at this point I trust that the cleaning will happen
some day, and the relationship with the kids is more important. You can't see in the
picture, but my friend and I had just raced face first down into the stream. I wouldn't have
cleaned the house or the kids until the end of the day, especially on a mud day.
I also think that if you spend most of the time saying Yes, not only do you get in the habit
of saying Yes (and finding alternatives), that when you say no because you absolutely
cannot (I'm thinking flu, hemorrhage, deadline for work...all things that have come up
recently in our house) then kids tend to take it much more seriously and think you're
being reasonable.
Melissa
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-hyl4g088bqoucMCa.Bn_Rchv?p=612
We just leave the house hooked up and rinse off outside. There used to be days where I
was more worried about mud, but really, at this point I trust that the cleaning will happen
some day, and the relationship with the kids is more important. You can't see in the
picture, but my friend and I had just raced face first down into the stream. I wouldn't have
cleaned the house or the kids until the end of the day, especially on a mud day.
I also think that if you spend most of the time saying Yes, not only do you get in the habit
of saying Yes (and finding alternatives), that when you say no because you absolutely
cannot (I'm thinking flu, hemorrhage, deadline for work...all things that have come up
recently in our house) then kids tend to take it much more seriously and think you're
being reasonable.
Melissa
--- In [email protected], Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
> I'm just giggling because this has happened so many
> times that I put a few of the pics on my blog. http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/
MOMflippedisWOW/332681/
>
> It's not an 'unschooling blog' nor a 'homeschooling blog' just a silly place to play.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@...>
> So would you say then that something that will cause what Mum
> considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
> she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
> reason to say "no"?
Kelli Traaseth
***In our neighborhood, most of my neighbors have
outside showers because of muddy fun and farm work.***
I was thinking something along those lines. Is there some way he can take off his clothes either before he comes in, or right at the door so it isn't going all the way through the house? And maybe rinsing off outside with a hose, before coming in? Maybe having a clothes basket right by the door and even some changes of clothes right there?
I'll often put towels close to the back door to help with wetness through out the house, coming in from the pool will do that pretty quick ;)
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin
---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
outside showers because of muddy fun and farm work.***
I was thinking something along those lines. Is there some way he can take off his clothes either before he comes in, or right at the door so it isn't going all the way through the house? And maybe rinsing off outside with a hose, before coming in? Maybe having a clothes basket right by the door and even some changes of clothes right there?
I'll often put towels close to the back door to help with wetness through out the house, coming in from the pool will do that pretty quick ;)
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin
---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
Mud slides are fun.
Looks like they had a great day.
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Melissa <autismhelp@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:31:40 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling and "No" - Was Snarky Comments and Paintball thread
And here's mine
http://blog. 360.yahoo. com/blog- hyl4g088bqoucMCa .Bn_Rchv? p=612
We just leave the house hooked up and rinse off outside. There used to be days where I
was more worried about mud, but really, at this point I trust that the cleaning will happen
some day, and the relationship with the kids is more important. You can't see in the
picture, but my friend and I had just raced face first down into the stream. I wouldn't have
cleaned the house or the kids until the end of the day, especially on a mud day.
I also think that if you spend most of the time saying Yes, not only do you get in the habit
of saying Yes (and finding alternatives) , that when you say no because you absolutely
cannot (I'm thinking flu, hemorrhage, deadline for work...all things that have come up
recently in our house) then kids tend to take it much more seriously and think you're
being reasonable.
Melissa
Looks like they had a great day.
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Melissa <autismhelp@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:31:40 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling and "No" - Was Snarky Comments and Paintball thread
And here's mine
http://blog. 360.yahoo. com/blog- hyl4g088bqoucMCa .Bn_Rchv? p=612
We just leave the house hooked up and rinse off outside. There used to be days where I
was more worried about mud, but really, at this point I trust that the cleaning will happen
some day, and the relationship with the kids is more important. You can't see in the
picture, but my friend and I had just raced face first down into the stream. I wouldn't have
cleaned the house or the kids until the end of the day, especially on a mud day.
I also think that if you spend most of the time saying Yes, not only do you get in the habit
of saying Yes (and finding alternatives) , that when you say no because you absolutely
cannot (I'm thinking flu, hemorrhage, deadline for work...all things that have come up
recently in our house) then kids tend to take it much more seriously and think you're
being reasonable.
Melissa
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@ ...> wrote:
> I'm just giggling because this has happened so many
> times that I put a few of the pics on my blog. http://www.homescho olblogger. com/
MOMflippedisWOW/ 332681/
>
> It's not an 'unschooling blog' nor a 'homeschooling blog' just a silly place to play.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@ ...>
> So would you say then that something that will cause what Mum
> considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
> she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
> reason to say "no"?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ummhamzah99@...>
wrote:
come in dirty/wet/snowy they remove all clothing at the door on a
rug and the clothes go in the laundry- then they are ready are the
next trip outside. So it workd for both people child goes outside
and mom does not have mess all through the house.
JulieH
wrote:
>trails
> A small real life example - son covered in mud from head to toe
> through the house leaving a trail of mud and soil and goes to thethe
> toilet leaving the bathroom and toilet also wet/muddy/soily. Then
> goes back out. Mum clears it up a little knowing very well that
> big clean up will have to follow later, then son returns later tobe
> cleaned up, mud caked clothes, soil dropping everywhere (if you'vecan't
> never had this experience please realise that the mud and soil
> be contained even if you remove all clothing outside the house!!!)there.
> taken for a shower, more mud on the bath, tiles, floor, toilet,
> washbasin, door frames - you name it - there's going to be mud
>I say there is is way to make it work for both of you- when my kids
come in dirty/wet/snowy they remove all clothing at the door on a
rug and the clothes go in the laundry- then they are ready are the
next trip outside. So it workd for both people child goes outside
and mom does not have mess all through the house.
JulieH
j50yab
Well, we do do that, clothes at the door, maybe rinse off hands etc,
back door open so not so far to go. But sometimes mud boy makes a
last minute toilet dash through the lounge, kitchen and back room.
Also, when clothes are off mud mad still seems to have lots left on
his body.
I don't usually say no the first time in the day. I would normally
try and put him off his plans a second time, but yesterday I just had
to say no to a third round of it. The ONLY reason I ever refuse mud
play is because I am physically shattered and I don't want to clean up
all the mud/soil again.
Love the idea of hosing off outside but it's v cold for that here.
Sarah
back door open so not so far to go. But sometimes mud boy makes a
last minute toilet dash through the lounge, kitchen and back room.
Also, when clothes are off mud mad still seems to have lots left on
his body.
I don't usually say no the first time in the day. I would normally
try and put him off his plans a second time, but yesterday I just had
to say no to a third round of it. The ONLY reason I ever refuse mud
play is because I am physically shattered and I don't want to clean up
all the mud/soil again.
Love the idea of hosing off outside but it's v cold for that here.
Sarah
Deb Lewis
***So would you say then that something that will cause what Mum
considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
reason to say "no"?***
Kids are messy. Kids having fun are messier. I think you need to
decide what's more important. Is a clean house more important to
you than a happy kid? If the answer is yes then say no to mud, but
consider that kind of prioritizing isn't compatible with unschooling.
It seems like you need to figure out what it is you believe. If
the principles of unschooling make logical sense to you then you can
take action to live according to those principles. If they don't,
then do something else.
You won't be the mom of a mud playing child forever. This time
won't last, for him or for you. Let his joy be more important than
the clean floor. On your death bed you will never say, "I wish I'd
kept my house cleaner." You will say, "I wish I'd played with my
kid more."
Maybe he'd play in his swim trunks, if the weather is nice enough,
and hose off before he comes inside.
Maybe he'd be willing to take his clothes off at the door and hose
off.
Maybe he'd take his clothes off inside the door and wipe down with a
towel.
If he doesn't like the cold hose maybe he'd jump in a big tub of
water before coming in. You can attach a hose to an indoor spigot
for warm water.
Maybe he'd use a camp shower if you hung one outside, they're nice
because the sun warms the water a little.
Maybe you can put up a little tent with a bucket inside for potty
breaks.
Maybe you can get over your worry about mud on washable surfaces.
If you're too tired to clean up the mud yet again, remember, the mud
will wait for you and in the morning when you're fresh you can clean
it up. <g>
Someday you might want his help or understanding about something.
If he says it's too much trouble will that be fine with you? If he
learns that what he wants is just too much bother for you it could
damage your relationship with him. You're son's delight and
happiness today is directly related to his happiness as a teen and
as an adult.
My son is fifteen now but he was four once, and seven once, and nine
once, and twelve. He played in mud and sand and water. I know what
a mud trail is like and know it cleans up in about five minutes with
some towels and a soapy sponge that can go right into the wash.
Deb Lewis
considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
reason to say "no"?***
Kids are messy. Kids having fun are messier. I think you need to
decide what's more important. Is a clean house more important to
you than a happy kid? If the answer is yes then say no to mud, but
consider that kind of prioritizing isn't compatible with unschooling.
It seems like you need to figure out what it is you believe. If
the principles of unschooling make logical sense to you then you can
take action to live according to those principles. If they don't,
then do something else.
You won't be the mom of a mud playing child forever. This time
won't last, for him or for you. Let his joy be more important than
the clean floor. On your death bed you will never say, "I wish I'd
kept my house cleaner." You will say, "I wish I'd played with my
kid more."
Maybe he'd play in his swim trunks, if the weather is nice enough,
and hose off before he comes inside.
Maybe he'd be willing to take his clothes off at the door and hose
off.
Maybe he'd take his clothes off inside the door and wipe down with a
towel.
If he doesn't like the cold hose maybe he'd jump in a big tub of
water before coming in. You can attach a hose to an indoor spigot
for warm water.
Maybe he'd use a camp shower if you hung one outside, they're nice
because the sun warms the water a little.
Maybe you can put up a little tent with a bucket inside for potty
breaks.
Maybe you can get over your worry about mud on washable surfaces.
If you're too tired to clean up the mud yet again, remember, the mud
will wait for you and in the morning when you're fresh you can clean
it up. <g>
Someday you might want his help or understanding about something.
If he says it's too much trouble will that be fine with you? If he
learns that what he wants is just too much bother for you it could
damage your relationship with him. You're son's delight and
happiness today is directly related to his happiness as a teen and
as an adult.
My son is fifteen now but he was four once, and seven once, and nine
once, and twelve. He played in mud and sand and water. I know what
a mud trail is like and know it cleans up in about five minutes with
some towels and a soapy sponge that can go right into the wash.
Deb Lewis
Ren Allen
>I think Mom's should partly get better at really prioritizing their
> ***So would you say then that something that will cause what Mum
> considers to be too much extra work for her (for whatever reason,
> she's sick, tired, busy, or just doesn't want to do it) a reasonable
> reason to say "no"?***
children's play, but again, it depends. There are times your body is
truly, physically tired. I don't mean just tired of cleaning up, but
exhausted. Sure, listen to your body. Being proactive about these
activities helps honor everyone's needs.
When you are considering how to support your child, shine the light of
death on the activity. By that, I mean ask yourself if your child (or
you) was gone tomorrow, what would be more important in this very
moment. Usually I find the energy to help them when I think of it that
way!
Arun posted about this at his blog, I think it's a really good
reminder:
http://theparentingpit.com/2007/07/27/while-we-are-on-the-subject-of-death/
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Schafer Vanessa
What about a plastic swimming pool with warm water for
him to rinse off in? That way it can be fun to get
all of the mud off, and then you could put an old
towel by the pool to let him dry off with. The water
can be emptied later, and it's less stress on you and
him.
--- j50yab <ummhamzah99@...> wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
him to rinse off in? That way it can be fun to get
all of the mud off, and then you could put an old
towel by the pool to let him dry off with. The water
can be emptied later, and it's less stress on you and
him.
--- j50yab <ummhamzah99@...> wrote:
> Well, we do do that, clothes at the door, maybeVanessa
> rinse off hands etc,
> back door open so not so far to go. But sometimes
> mud boy makes a
> last minute toilet dash through the lounge, kitchen
> and back room.
> Also, when clothes are off mud mad still seems to
> have lots left on
> his body.
>
> I don't usually say no the first time in the day. I
> would normally
> try and put him off his plans a second time, but
> yesterday I just had
> to say no to a third round of it. The ONLY reason I
> ever refuse mud
> play is because I am physically shattered and I
> don't want to clean up
> all the mud/soil again.
>
> Love the idea of hosing off outside but it's v cold
> for that here.
>
> Sarah
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/1/2007 5:39:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
You'll want an example – so let's say, for
example, you've just varnished the deck and it's still wet, and your
child wants to chalk on it right now. For both families that just
isn't going to be possible, both will discuss options and in both
cases there might be an happier outcome (eg child happily chalks on
the outside wall) or a less happy outcome (child has a screaming fit
because they really want to do it right now and can't accept any
discussion of alternatives)discussion of alternatives)<WBR>. So whe
perhaps a difference in how the parents might deal with the screaming
fit child)
Well, here's the problem with hypotheticals.
Just like I can't picture a six year old WANTING to watch porn, I can't
imagine a child without other issues going on really throwing a screaming fit
because they can't immediately use chalk on a freshly varnished deck. Of course,
the magic words are "other issues."
Even little kids aren't stupid. With a healthy attachment to parents, and a
history of being treated with respect, most of the time they can understand
reasonable, real-world limits. You stop them from running into the street,
reminding them that cars are big and fast and can break them. Not stupid -- they
can get that. The varnish is wet, but we can do it later when it's dry, or
you can do it on the sidewalk. Again, not stupid.
If the healthy attached child is throwing a fit because of it, it's probably
not about the chalk on the deck. She's hungry or tired or needs hugs, or
something. Maybe it's just been a hard day.
People get fixated on the yeses and no's. We try hard to say yes whenever we
can because it makes sense. You might have a hard day with a kid where there
are lots of no's. But even the no's can be kind and reasonable. Think about
how you would treat your partner or your best friend. It's the same thing with
your child.
Ren brought up an example with Jalen that I think illustrates an important
"no." Jalen wanted to do something that Ren was just not physically up to
doing. Rather than resenting the child and going along, she said no. I don't know
how Jalen reacted -- maybe he was sad or angry. It's okay. Our kids can be
sad or angry sometimes, but a genuine "no" will lead to more trust than a
resentful "yes."
I want to repeat -- we say yes whenever we can BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE! (caps
for emphasis) Some of the conservative dooky parenting "experts" (I'm
thinking Dobson) insist that you should say no a lot. Why? So kids understand they
can't always get what they want? Again, not stupid -- they know, they know.
We call this approach radical, but if you think about real relationships,
it's really not. We just grow up being taught that children are some wild things
that have to be broken and controlled. The problem with that is that you end
up with an adult who is broken and doesn't have any self-control. And you
don't get to have a real relationship with them.
Kathryn
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
You'll want an example – so let's say, for
example, you've just varnished the deck and it's still wet, and your
child wants to chalk on it right now. For both families that just
isn't going to be possible, both will discuss options and in both
cases there might be an happier outcome (eg child happily chalks on
the outside wall) or a less happy outcome (child has a screaming fit
because they really want to do it right now and can't accept any
discussion of alternatives)discussion of alternatives)<WBR>. So whe
perhaps a difference in how the parents might deal with the screaming
fit child)
Well, here's the problem with hypotheticals.
Just like I can't picture a six year old WANTING to watch porn, I can't
imagine a child without other issues going on really throwing a screaming fit
because they can't immediately use chalk on a freshly varnished deck. Of course,
the magic words are "other issues."
Even little kids aren't stupid. With a healthy attachment to parents, and a
history of being treated with respect, most of the time they can understand
reasonable, real-world limits. You stop them from running into the street,
reminding them that cars are big and fast and can break them. Not stupid -- they
can get that. The varnish is wet, but we can do it later when it's dry, or
you can do it on the sidewalk. Again, not stupid.
If the healthy attached child is throwing a fit because of it, it's probably
not about the chalk on the deck. She's hungry or tired or needs hugs, or
something. Maybe it's just been a hard day.
People get fixated on the yeses and no's. We try hard to say yes whenever we
can because it makes sense. You might have a hard day with a kid where there
are lots of no's. But even the no's can be kind and reasonable. Think about
how you would treat your partner or your best friend. It's the same thing with
your child.
Ren brought up an example with Jalen that I think illustrates an important
"no." Jalen wanted to do something that Ren was just not physically up to
doing. Rather than resenting the child and going along, she said no. I don't know
how Jalen reacted -- maybe he was sad or angry. It's okay. Our kids can be
sad or angry sometimes, but a genuine "no" will lead to more trust than a
resentful "yes."
I want to repeat -- we say yes whenever we can BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE! (caps
for emphasis) Some of the conservative dooky parenting "experts" (I'm
thinking Dobson) insist that you should say no a lot. Why? So kids understand they
can't always get what they want? Again, not stupid -- they know, they know.
We call this approach radical, but if you think about real relationships,
it's really not. We just grow up being taught that children are some wild things
that have to be broken and controlled. The problem with that is that you end
up with an adult who is broken and doesn't have any self-control. And you
don't get to have a real relationship with them.
Kathryn
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Just like I can't picture a six year old WANTING to watch porn, I
can't imagine a child without other issues going on really throwing a
screaming fit because they can't immediately use chalk on a freshly
varnished deck.~~
I was thinking the same thing. Even a very, very little child would
understand if you took the time to walk over to the freshly varnished
deck, stoop down with child in hand and let them touch a little
corner. Or have the parent touch it and show them. A bit of time and
sharing information is all that's needed.
There's a big difference in that scenario, even though the result of
"no you can't walk on the deck" is the same. In the mainstream world
(overgeneralizing here) the answer is just "NO, you're not allowed".
The mindful parent is assuming the best of their child and getting
down on their level. Big difference in the affect on the relationship
even if the end result is "no".
~~ Rather than resenting the child and going along, she said no. I
don't know how Jalen reacted -- maybe he was sad or angry. It's okay.
Our kids can be sad or angry sometimes, but a genuine "no" will lead
to more trust than a resentful "yes."~~
It was a mindful "no" for sure. I really WANTED to go to the park with
him (this is a downtown park, not really a park at all so no other
alternative appealed to him) but between two other family members
really not feeling up to it, there was no way to make it work.
So....Jalen was not happy. Not over the top angry or sad like he can
be, probably because he really did understand "sore throat" and
"menstrual cycle" in his own way.;) He called me a "jerk" when we got
in the van and I just said "You know, it probably feels like I'm a
jerk because we can't go to the park right now and you really want to
but I'd really be a jerk if I didn't take Trevor home when he's sick."
~~I want to repeat -- we say yes whenever we can BECAUSE IT MAKES
SENSE! ~~
Yes, yes, yes!!:) See...it feels GOOD to say yes. All I know, is there
is a huge shift within a person when they are looking for creative
ways to make things work, rather than finding an excuse to say "no".
It throws open the doors of communication and joy. What more could a
person want?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
can't imagine a child without other issues going on really throwing a
screaming fit because they can't immediately use chalk on a freshly
varnished deck.~~
I was thinking the same thing. Even a very, very little child would
understand if you took the time to walk over to the freshly varnished
deck, stoop down with child in hand and let them touch a little
corner. Or have the parent touch it and show them. A bit of time and
sharing information is all that's needed.
There's a big difference in that scenario, even though the result of
"no you can't walk on the deck" is the same. In the mainstream world
(overgeneralizing here) the answer is just "NO, you're not allowed".
The mindful parent is assuming the best of their child and getting
down on their level. Big difference in the affect on the relationship
even if the end result is "no".
~~ Rather than resenting the child and going along, she said no. I
don't know how Jalen reacted -- maybe he was sad or angry. It's okay.
Our kids can be sad or angry sometimes, but a genuine "no" will lead
to more trust than a resentful "yes."~~
It was a mindful "no" for sure. I really WANTED to go to the park with
him (this is a downtown park, not really a park at all so no other
alternative appealed to him) but between two other family members
really not feeling up to it, there was no way to make it work.
So....Jalen was not happy. Not over the top angry or sad like he can
be, probably because he really did understand "sore throat" and
"menstrual cycle" in his own way.;) He called me a "jerk" when we got
in the van and I just said "You know, it probably feels like I'm a
jerk because we can't go to the park right now and you really want to
but I'd really be a jerk if I didn't take Trevor home when he's sick."
~~I want to repeat -- we say yes whenever we can BECAUSE IT MAKES
SENSE! ~~
Yes, yes, yes!!:) See...it feels GOOD to say yes. All I know, is there
is a huge shift within a person when they are looking for creative
ways to make things work, rather than finding an excuse to say "no".
It throws open the doors of communication and joy. What more could a
person want?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Linda
This is kind of funny, because Dobson is the one who first gave me the
idea of homeschooling (vs. public school). Now, about 12 years later,
look how far I've come! I just wish I had known about unschooling
before my kids were born.
Linda
idea of homeschooling (vs. public school). Now, about 12 years later,
look how far I've come! I just wish I had known about unschooling
before my kids were born.
Linda
--- In [email protected], KathrynJB@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/1/2007 5:39:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> Some of the conservative dooky parenting "experts" (I'm
> thinking Dobson) insist that you should say no a lot. Why? So kids
understand they
> can't always get what they want? Again, not stupid -- they know,
they know.
>
>
> Kathryn
>
>
>
>
>
Vickisue Gray
~~Kids are messy. Kids having fun are messier. I think you need to
decide what's more important. Is a clean house more important to
you than a happy kid? .......
That was very nicely stated, Deb. All of it. It also made me appreciate my old battered
carpet that is showing the wear and tear of ten years of kids and pets playing
on it. My oldest is 17 and training for her chosen career...the years fly by fast.
I think I will miss my messy house when my kids are all grown.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
decide what's more important. Is a clean house more important to
you than a happy kid? .......
That was very nicely stated, Deb. All of it. It also made me appreciate my old battered
carpet that is showing the wear and tear of ten years of kids and pets playing
on it. My oldest is 17 and training for her chosen career...the years fly by fast.
I think I will miss my messy house when my kids are all grown.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
j50yab
Sorry but I can't help defending my mud stories now! We home school
but are very very new to the idea of unschooling. However, my son's
favorite choices of hobby are almost all quite messy, that's just what
interests him and has since he was about 4 yrs old. Generally
speaking I do not restrict this, but nevertheless I do find the clear
up rounds exasperating (and sometimes draining if I'm having a low
energy level day) as I am repeating the same huge clean up tasks every
day or sometimes more. Often times the clean up lasts longer than the
time it took to make the mess. My house is not that tidy and not that
clean as you cannot have everything - I would rather he has fun doing
that stuff freely than make him sit at a table doing something tidy.
My mud questions were really around trying to understand the "no"
concept better. So now I'm wondering if maybe I have a
misunderstanding about US and "no" then? My impression from websites
etc was that to try really hard not to say "no" is one of the
*objectives* of radical US. Now I'm wondering if it isn't just a
natural outcome of US rather than the goal in itself? - which makes a
lot more sense to me.
I still don't see the difference between many other parenting styles
and RU though in this regard, with the wet deck scenario many non-US
families would have given that little extra thought to explaining to
the child as well, so the difference between the different parenting
styles must lie elsewhere.
Would a 6 yr old have a screaming fit? This was a made up example so,
as you say, maybe not the best one. But my son has just turned 7 and
yes he does have screaming fits - where he shouts and dissolves into
heavy crying and is very distressed. I can't quite gauge whether the
loud crying is just his way of letting it all out and that's that, or
whether there's more to it.
Unfortunately I just can't think of a real example right now to think
about, but yes, he does respond strongly if hungry or tired, there are
other issues (or I wouldn't be here!!), and maybe it happens when I
have given an inconsistent or unreasonable "no" to something - I just
can't remember. But at least I can be more alert for it next time and
try to see more clearly what is going on.
Sarah
but are very very new to the idea of unschooling. However, my son's
favorite choices of hobby are almost all quite messy, that's just what
interests him and has since he was about 4 yrs old. Generally
speaking I do not restrict this, but nevertheless I do find the clear
up rounds exasperating (and sometimes draining if I'm having a low
energy level day) as I am repeating the same huge clean up tasks every
day or sometimes more. Often times the clean up lasts longer than the
time it took to make the mess. My house is not that tidy and not that
clean as you cannot have everything - I would rather he has fun doing
that stuff freely than make him sit at a table doing something tidy.
My mud questions were really around trying to understand the "no"
concept better. So now I'm wondering if maybe I have a
misunderstanding about US and "no" then? My impression from websites
etc was that to try really hard not to say "no" is one of the
*objectives* of radical US. Now I'm wondering if it isn't just a
natural outcome of US rather than the goal in itself? - which makes a
lot more sense to me.
I still don't see the difference between many other parenting styles
and RU though in this regard, with the wet deck scenario many non-US
families would have given that little extra thought to explaining to
the child as well, so the difference between the different parenting
styles must lie elsewhere.
Would a 6 yr old have a screaming fit? This was a made up example so,
as you say, maybe not the best one. But my son has just turned 7 and
yes he does have screaming fits - where he shouts and dissolves into
heavy crying and is very distressed. I can't quite gauge whether the
loud crying is just his way of letting it all out and that's that, or
whether there's more to it.
Unfortunately I just can't think of a real example right now to think
about, but yes, he does respond strongly if hungry or tired, there are
other issues (or I wouldn't be here!!), and maybe it happens when I
have given an inconsistent or unreasonable "no" to something - I just
can't remember. But at least I can be more alert for it next time and
try to see more clearly what is going on.
Sarah
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ummhamzah99@...>
wrote:
allowed" precedes the discussion. The wet varnish example is great
for that!
wouldn't put a child in that possition to begin with - especially a
child who, in the example, is impulsive and tends to get focused
very quickly.
In my home, if something needs to be painted or stained or whatever,
George and I figure out *first* if the location is going to be
problematic, given Mo and Ray's specific needs and different
personalities. Its not uncommon for us to delay or rearrange a
project with those things in mind.
This is part of what I mean by "stretching" the idea of what's
reasonable. Its not reasonable, from my perspective, to expect
either one of my kids to stay off a freshly-varnished deck. Mo would
be fascinated and want to test the finish repeatedly. Ray would try
his darnedest, but ultimately forget and walk on it.
With this in mind, if we wanted to paint our back porch (which would
be our real life equivalent) we'd first arrange for at least one of
the kids to be somewhere else for the day. With the remaining kid,
we'd talk about the situation and brainstorm some solutions -
solutions that would likely involve a lot of direct interaction on
my part.
If Mo were home, we might paint something *in addition* to the porch
for her to experiment with while the paint dried. With Ray....he's
the harder one bc he tends to get really focused. We'd probably have
to construct some kind of barricade across all three entrances to
the porch *and* I'd have to either stick to him like a limpit or
stay on the porch until the paint dried to remind him *why* the
barricades where there. Most likely, he'd be the one we'd be trying
to get out of the house for the day.
That's one of the things discussion boards like this are really
useful for - I can lay out a situation and get feedback on the
places where I may be missing the kid pov.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
wrote:
>> My question is, how is what unschoolers do in this situation notIn
> manipulating if traditional but gentle parenting is manipulating?
> both cases something will come up, the requested thing won't beOne big difference lies in the assumption that "the request won't be
> allowed, a discussion about options (forget the frowning bit) will
> follow, and hopefully an agreeable solution will be reached.
allowed" precedes the discussion. The wet varnish example is great
for that!
>let's say, foryour
> example, you've just varnished the deck and it's still wet, and
> child wants to chalk on it right now.Okay, stop there. The process starts waaaaay sooner than that. I
wouldn't put a child in that possition to begin with - especially a
child who, in the example, is impulsive and tends to get focused
very quickly.
In my home, if something needs to be painted or stained or whatever,
George and I figure out *first* if the location is going to be
problematic, given Mo and Ray's specific needs and different
personalities. Its not uncommon for us to delay or rearrange a
project with those things in mind.
This is part of what I mean by "stretching" the idea of what's
reasonable. Its not reasonable, from my perspective, to expect
either one of my kids to stay off a freshly-varnished deck. Mo would
be fascinated and want to test the finish repeatedly. Ray would try
his darnedest, but ultimately forget and walk on it.
With this in mind, if we wanted to paint our back porch (which would
be our real life equivalent) we'd first arrange for at least one of
the kids to be somewhere else for the day. With the remaining kid,
we'd talk about the situation and brainstorm some solutions -
solutions that would likely involve a lot of direct interaction on
my part.
If Mo were home, we might paint something *in addition* to the porch
for her to experiment with while the paint dried. With Ray....he's
the harder one bc he tends to get really focused. We'd probably have
to construct some kind of barricade across all three entrances to
the porch *and* I'd have to either stick to him like a limpit or
stay on the porch until the paint dried to remind him *why* the
barricades where there. Most likely, he'd be the one we'd be trying
to get out of the house for the day.
> Or maybe it's to do with the building of a relationship of trustfrom
> the point of view of the child?Yes, and a child's pov is often pretty different from an adult's.
That's one of the things discussion boards like this are really
useful for - I can lay out a situation and get feedback on the
places where I may be missing the kid pov.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Jennifer
--- In [email protected], "j50yab" <ummhamzah99@...>
wrote:
(going on our 2nd year), and I know exactly where you are coming
from. When I first started learning about RUS, I looked for specific
examples, trying to get an idea of what it looked like. I'm just
wired that way. I need specifics and how to steps:) What I've
learned is that the details are much less important than the overall
picture. For me, it's best that I don't focus on saying "yes" to
everything (however, saying yes as much as possible is a byproduct of
living a RUS life) or get too wrapped up in if my child does... than
I should do... Instead, it's more helpful to my own journey in RUS
that I stay focused on being present with them in the moment as much
as possible (it takes alot of practice, and I'm still working on it:)
and quieting my own conventional parental baggage gunk in my head and
REALLY watching and listening to my kids. In learning who they are,
I'm able to see their needs behind whatever negative behavoir they
are displaying or better yet, I'm able to meet those needs before
there is a problem.
Another thing that is helpful for me to remember, is that this *is* a
process (I think it was Meredith and Lisa that mentioned this
before). Sometimes I go through periods of focusing too much on the
end result of being a totally enlightened RUS mom. I'll get
discouraged and have doubts that I'll ever get there. This kind of
thinking usually leads to me being less mindful and present with my
kids, and of course they *feel* this and act out when their needs
aren't being met, understandably. When RUS is really working and
flowing in our lives, it's b/c I'm focused on enjoying my journey
rather than getting wrapped up in what I'm not yet.
Also, two resources that have been invaluable to me are
www.consensual-living.com and Danielle Conger's article, Rules vs
Principles
http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/rulesvsprinciples
Hope I've helped, rather than confused:)
Jennifer
wrote:
>what
> Sorry but I can't help defending my mud stories now! We home school
> but are very very new to the idea of unschooling. However, my son's
> favorite choices of hobby are almost all quite messy, that's just
> interests him and has since he was about 4 yrs old. Generallyclear
> speaking I do not restrict this, but nevertheless I do find the
> up rounds exasperating (and sometimes draining if I'm having a lowevery
> energy level day) as I am repeating the same huge clean up tasks
> day or sometimes more. Often times the clean up lasts longer thanthe
> time it took to make the mess. My house is not that tidy and notthat
> clean as you cannot have everything - I would rather he has fundoing
> that stuff freely than make him sit at a table doing something tidy.websites
>
> My mud questions were really around trying to understand the "no"
> concept better. So now I'm wondering if maybe I have a
> misunderstanding about US and "no" then? My impression from
> etc was that to try really hard not to say "no" is one of thea
> *objectives* of radical US. Now I'm wondering if it isn't just a
> natural outcome of US rather than the goal in itself? - which makes
> lot more sense to me.so,
>
> I still don't see the difference between many other parenting styles
> and RU though in this regard, with the wet deck scenario many non-US
> families would have given that little extra thought to explaining to
> the child as well, so the difference between the different parenting
> styles must lie elsewhere.
>
> Would a 6 yr old have a screaming fit? This was a made up example
> as you say, maybe not the best one. But my son has just turned 7and
> yes he does have screaming fits - where he shouts and dissolves intothe
> heavy crying and is very distressed. I can't quite gauge whether
> loud crying is just his way of letting it all out and that's that,or
> whether there's more to it.think
>
> Unfortunately I just can't think of a real example right now to
> about, but yes, he does respond strongly if hungry or tired, thereare
> other issues (or I wouldn't be here!!), and maybe it happens when Ijust
> have given an inconsistent or unreasonable "no" to something - I
> can't remember. But at least I can be more alert for it next timeand
> try to see more clearly what is going on.Hi Sarah. We are relatively new to radical unschooling as well
>
>
> Sarah
>
(going on our 2nd year), and I know exactly where you are coming
from. When I first started learning about RUS, I looked for specific
examples, trying to get an idea of what it looked like. I'm just
wired that way. I need specifics and how to steps:) What I've
learned is that the details are much less important than the overall
picture. For me, it's best that I don't focus on saying "yes" to
everything (however, saying yes as much as possible is a byproduct of
living a RUS life) or get too wrapped up in if my child does... than
I should do... Instead, it's more helpful to my own journey in RUS
that I stay focused on being present with them in the moment as much
as possible (it takes alot of practice, and I'm still working on it:)
and quieting my own conventional parental baggage gunk in my head and
REALLY watching and listening to my kids. In learning who they are,
I'm able to see their needs behind whatever negative behavoir they
are displaying or better yet, I'm able to meet those needs before
there is a problem.
Another thing that is helpful for me to remember, is that this *is* a
process (I think it was Meredith and Lisa that mentioned this
before). Sometimes I go through periods of focusing too much on the
end result of being a totally enlightened RUS mom. I'll get
discouraged and have doubts that I'll ever get there. This kind of
thinking usually leads to me being less mindful and present with my
kids, and of course they *feel* this and act out when their needs
aren't being met, understandably. When RUS is really working and
flowing in our lives, it's b/c I'm focused on enjoying my journey
rather than getting wrapped up in what I'm not yet.
Also, two resources that have been invaluable to me are
www.consensual-living.com and Danielle Conger's article, Rules vs
Principles
http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/rulesvsprinciples
Hope I've helped, rather than confused:)
Jennifer
Ren Allen
~~Sometimes I go through periods of focusing too much on the
end result of being a totally enlightened RUS mom.~~
I think that might set you up for disappointment. There is no "there"
to get to. It's all just part of a lifelong journey with our children.
Yes, there are epiphanies and shifts that come. Yes, we can look back
a few years and see how we are making better choices perhaps. But
instead of seeing some zen-like, perfect RU "place" to get to, maybe
see it as better choices each moment or day. That's all.
Nobody is a perfect parent. I certainly open my mouth and hear some
really weird stuff come out (forunately my children look at me like a
martian just dropped in and I can say "what was THAT about?") that
sounds like my mother!
It's an unfolding. It's small shifts that add up to more joy. It's
being present and here right NOW. There isn't some plateau or "there".
Enlightenment happens one choice at a time.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
end result of being a totally enlightened RUS mom.~~
I think that might set you up for disappointment. There is no "there"
to get to. It's all just part of a lifelong journey with our children.
Yes, there are epiphanies and shifts that come. Yes, we can look back
a few years and see how we are making better choices perhaps. But
instead of seeing some zen-like, perfect RU "place" to get to, maybe
see it as better choices each moment or day. That's all.
Nobody is a perfect parent. I certainly open my mouth and hear some
really weird stuff come out (forunately my children look at me like a
martian just dropped in and I can say "what was THAT about?") that
sounds like my mother!
It's an unfolding. It's small shifts that add up to more joy. It's
being present and here right NOW. There isn't some plateau or "there".
Enlightenment happens one choice at a time.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Deb Lewis
***I do find the clear
up rounds exasperating (and sometimes draining if I'm having a low
energy level day) as I am repeating the same huge clean up tasks
every
day or sometimes more***
You might consider whether you have unrealistic expectations of
tidiness for the mother of a busy kid. Because he is doing what is
natural, and because you will probably not successfully change his
nature and inclination without damage to your relationship, the most
reasonable thing for you to do would be to change *your*
expectations for the state of your house while your son is a mud
enthusiast. It is difficult and problematic to try to change
someone else or to try to get them to meet our expectations. It is
much more effective and useful to see what we can change within and
about ourselves.
And since most all of us on this list have at least one kid, and
since it's not unusual for kids to enjoy mud play or sandbox play,
we all have some concept of the scope of the mud coverage and the
time it takes to clean up. You might consider whether you're
exaggerating the situation in your own mind and in your language
here in order to justify saying "no" to mud play. Is it possible
that part of the reason you're focusing on when an unschooler might
say "no" is because you want to feel ok about sometimes limiting a
second round of mud play?
*** trying to understand the "no"
concept better. ***
I think you're focusing on when and how and how often to say no when
you should be focusing on finding ways to enrich your child's life
with you.
***Now I'm wondering if it isn't just a
natural outcome of US rather than the goal in itself? -***
It is not the goal of unschooling to never say no. There are times
we say no and times we all hear or experience a "no." We're not
hoping to convey to our kids that saying no is wrong. We want our
kids to say no to creeps who want to hurt them.
But we should think about each request and situation instead of
saying an automatic "no." Consider the possibility of what your
child is asking as you'd consider one of your own desires, or the
desire of a dear friend visiting your home. Be as helpful and
thoughtful with your child as you would be to your friend or your
partner.
The goal is to live well with our children. To respect them, help
them, and empower them. The idea is to think about our parenting
and make choices that build our relationship with our kids.
Parents say no for a lot of different reasons. Lot's of parents
believe kids *need* to hear "no." They think kids won't learn
what "no" means if they don't make up a lot of reasons to say no.
Lots of parent use "no" as the default answer to requests out of
convenience to the parents or some other reason that has nothing
really to do with the workability of the request. Lots of parents
operate on the "Shut them down before they get out of hand"
principle and unschooling rejects all of that. Unschooling
encourages parents to help their kids do what they want to do as
much as possible and when it's not possible to be careful and
thoughtful and sympathetic.
***I still don't see the difference between many other parenting
styles
and RU***
I don't think you're looking for the difference. I think you're
looking for ways unschooling might be like what you're doing, so
that you don't have to really change much in order to think of
yourself as an unschooler.
It is different but until you're willing to really consider it and
consider why making the changes would be beneficial to your
relationship with your kid you won't see the difference.
***But my son has just turned 7 and
yes he does have screaming fits -***
The point is that a kid whose folks talked to him about the deck
being unusable for a little while, whose parents considered how much
inconvenience it would be to the kid if they made the deck unusable,
whose mom or dad found another place for chalk play while the deck
was sticky, who maybe even were willing to let the deck go another
year, wouldn't feel very much like something was done *to* him when
the deck was varnished, wouldn't feel like something had been taken
from him.
Lots of adults have screaming fits. Some adults still scream when
they feel overwhelmed and as if no one is listening to them or
trying to help them. Kids who've been here much less time and who
have fewer skills for coping with stress also especially face a lot
of little disappointments all day long with traditional parents.
It's not surprising they sometimes feel stressed to the point of
crying.
*** he does respond strongly if hungry or tired, there are
other issues ***
Many kids and maybe even most little kids are at the mercy of their
parents when it comes to getting food. If parents get busy or
distracted, kids might not get food when they first need it. There
have been many posts about being proactive when it comes to kids and
food. Parents can make sure convenient foods are easily available
to kids, parents can remember to offer food regularly and they can
pay attention to their child's hunger signals so that a kid doesn't
have to get to the melt down stage before mom notices he hasn't
eaten. All of those things help a kid feel good immediately, he
gets food, he has the considerate attention of his mom and he has
choice. All of those things can go a long way to help in managing
or even avoiding stress.
Deb Lewis
up rounds exasperating (and sometimes draining if I'm having a low
energy level day) as I am repeating the same huge clean up tasks
every
day or sometimes more***
You might consider whether you have unrealistic expectations of
tidiness for the mother of a busy kid. Because he is doing what is
natural, and because you will probably not successfully change his
nature and inclination without damage to your relationship, the most
reasonable thing for you to do would be to change *your*
expectations for the state of your house while your son is a mud
enthusiast. It is difficult and problematic to try to change
someone else or to try to get them to meet our expectations. It is
much more effective and useful to see what we can change within and
about ourselves.
And since most all of us on this list have at least one kid, and
since it's not unusual for kids to enjoy mud play or sandbox play,
we all have some concept of the scope of the mud coverage and the
time it takes to clean up. You might consider whether you're
exaggerating the situation in your own mind and in your language
here in order to justify saying "no" to mud play. Is it possible
that part of the reason you're focusing on when an unschooler might
say "no" is because you want to feel ok about sometimes limiting a
second round of mud play?
*** trying to understand the "no"
concept better. ***
I think you're focusing on when and how and how often to say no when
you should be focusing on finding ways to enrich your child's life
with you.
***Now I'm wondering if it isn't just a
natural outcome of US rather than the goal in itself? -***
It is not the goal of unschooling to never say no. There are times
we say no and times we all hear or experience a "no." We're not
hoping to convey to our kids that saying no is wrong. We want our
kids to say no to creeps who want to hurt them.
But we should think about each request and situation instead of
saying an automatic "no." Consider the possibility of what your
child is asking as you'd consider one of your own desires, or the
desire of a dear friend visiting your home. Be as helpful and
thoughtful with your child as you would be to your friend or your
partner.
The goal is to live well with our children. To respect them, help
them, and empower them. The idea is to think about our parenting
and make choices that build our relationship with our kids.
Parents say no for a lot of different reasons. Lot's of parents
believe kids *need* to hear "no." They think kids won't learn
what "no" means if they don't make up a lot of reasons to say no.
Lots of parent use "no" as the default answer to requests out of
convenience to the parents or some other reason that has nothing
really to do with the workability of the request. Lots of parents
operate on the "Shut them down before they get out of hand"
principle and unschooling rejects all of that. Unschooling
encourages parents to help their kids do what they want to do as
much as possible and when it's not possible to be careful and
thoughtful and sympathetic.
***I still don't see the difference between many other parenting
styles
and RU***
I don't think you're looking for the difference. I think you're
looking for ways unschooling might be like what you're doing, so
that you don't have to really change much in order to think of
yourself as an unschooler.
It is different but until you're willing to really consider it and
consider why making the changes would be beneficial to your
relationship with your kid you won't see the difference.
***But my son has just turned 7 and
yes he does have screaming fits -***
The point is that a kid whose folks talked to him about the deck
being unusable for a little while, whose parents considered how much
inconvenience it would be to the kid if they made the deck unusable,
whose mom or dad found another place for chalk play while the deck
was sticky, who maybe even were willing to let the deck go another
year, wouldn't feel very much like something was done *to* him when
the deck was varnished, wouldn't feel like something had been taken
from him.
Lots of adults have screaming fits. Some adults still scream when
they feel overwhelmed and as if no one is listening to them or
trying to help them. Kids who've been here much less time and who
have fewer skills for coping with stress also especially face a lot
of little disappointments all day long with traditional parents.
It's not surprising they sometimes feel stressed to the point of
crying.
*** he does respond strongly if hungry or tired, there are
other issues ***
Many kids and maybe even most little kids are at the mercy of their
parents when it comes to getting food. If parents get busy or
distracted, kids might not get food when they first need it. There
have been many posts about being proactive when it comes to kids and
food. Parents can make sure convenient foods are easily available
to kids, parents can remember to offer food regularly and they can
pay attention to their child's hunger signals so that a kid doesn't
have to get to the melt down stage before mom notices he hasn't
eaten. All of those things help a kid feel good immediately, he
gets food, he has the considerate attention of his mom and he has
choice. All of those things can go a long way to help in managing
or even avoiding stress.
Deb Lewis
j50yab
QUOTE << ***I still don't see the difference between many other
parenting styles and RU***
I don't think you're looking for the difference. I think you're
looking for ways unschooling might be like what you're doing, so
that you don't have to really change much in order to think of
yourself as an unschooler.
It is different but until you're willing to really consider it and
consider why making the changes would be beneficial to your
relationship with your kid you won't see the difference." >>
Deb, you have made a few assumptions about my intentions in your reply
instead of taking my post as honest and at face value - above is one
example. I can't help but find it a little insulting to ask a question
and be told (based on assumptions) that I am not ready to hear the
answer. It would be more helpful for me and my children if my
questions were answered rather than getting into a cycle of
questionning questions etc
Please tell me then, in the contexts in which I am asking, what is the
difference? Perhaps there isn't one in this aspect of parenting which
I why I just don't see it?
Sarah
parenting styles and RU***
I don't think you're looking for the difference. I think you're
looking for ways unschooling might be like what you're doing, so
that you don't have to really change much in order to think of
yourself as an unschooler.
It is different but until you're willing to really consider it and
consider why making the changes would be beneficial to your
relationship with your kid you won't see the difference." >>
Deb, you have made a few assumptions about my intentions in your reply
instead of taking my post as honest and at face value - above is one
example. I can't help but find it a little insulting to ask a question
and be told (based on assumptions) that I am not ready to hear the
answer. It would be more helpful for me and my children if my
questions were answered rather than getting into a cycle of
questionning questions etc
Please tell me then, in the contexts in which I am asking, what is the
difference? Perhaps there isn't one in this aspect of parenting which
I why I just don't see it?
Sarah
j50yab
Jennifer - thank you for understanding, it's very much appreciated. Sarah
Deb Lewis
***Please tell me then, in the contexts in which I am asking, what is
the
difference? Perhaps there isn't one in this aspect of parenting which
I why I just don't see it?***
In looking back through some of your posts this was the clearest
framing of this "difference" question I found:
***I still don't see the difference between many other parenting
styles and RU***
You can read at www.sandradodd.com/unschooling or
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%
20parenting/mindfulparentingzinn.html you might enjoy browsing around
there with particular attention to the parenting topics.
You might also find Danielle Conger's article, "Rules vs. Principles"
helpful.
http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/rulesvsprinciples.html
I don't have personal knowledge of "many other parenting styles,"
but I know what is typically traditional parenting. Mainstream
parenting says kids need boundaries, discipline and consequences.
What that translates to is kids need limits set by parents and other
authoritarian adults and they need to be disciplined by parents and
they need to endure parent (or other adult) invented punishment.
To traditional parents boundaries are rules and limits put in place
to ensure a child will not do what his parents don't want. They
believe without the rules and limits a child would definitely,
willfully and habitually do wrong things.
Traditional parents believe children need to be disciplined (trained)
by adults in order to learn how to be responsible and good. They
believe without the external discipline by an adult a child would
never be conscientious.
Traditional parents believe that in order for a child to lean that
certain things are wrong they must suffer some punishment. Without
consequences traditional parents believe children will strive to find
ways to "get away with" doing the wrong or bad things they are always
secretly hoping to do.
Unschooling parents believe kids are nice people who want to do
well. That changes every interaction with a child. It eliminates
the need for boundaries, discipline and consequences and makes room
for trust, support and compassion.
I think the poster was stuck on the issue of saying no to a child,
wanting maybe, guidelines for times when "no" is an appropriate
response in an unschooling family.
John Rosemond, who has a weekly column and several books about
parenting, maintains a website called "Traditional Parenting." From
that website, here is a link to John Rosemond's bill of rights for
children: http://rosemond.com/index.php?action=website-
view&WebSiteID=389&WebPageID=9896 where he says a child "has a
right" to hear "no" at least three times a day.
I don't believe having one's feelings disregarded by one's parents
builds character. I think it builds resentment. That's not the
relationship I'm striving for with my son. Saying no to someone for
their own character development is manipulative and patronizing and
mean.
I think a child should hear "no" as an answer to requests as little
as possible. I think parents should work very hard to find ways to
say yes to children. I believe people who are new on the planet need
to be facilitated in exploration and adventure and investigation as
much as possible for them to learn and grow happily and be healthy
emotionally and mentally.
Thinking about times when "no" is appropriate will side track a
person from the creative thought process of trying to find ways to
say "yes." I think it's a sticking point that ought to be got over
right quick for unschooling to bloom and grow. If one has to have a
guideline make it to never say "no" automatically or arbitrarily.
Deb Lewis
the
difference? Perhaps there isn't one in this aspect of parenting which
I why I just don't see it?***
In looking back through some of your posts this was the clearest
framing of this "difference" question I found:
***I still don't see the difference between many other parenting
styles and RU***
You can read at www.sandradodd.com/unschooling or
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%
20parenting/mindfulparentingzinn.html you might enjoy browsing around
there with particular attention to the parenting topics.
You might also find Danielle Conger's article, "Rules vs. Principles"
helpful.
http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/rulesvsprinciples.html
I don't have personal knowledge of "many other parenting styles,"
but I know what is typically traditional parenting. Mainstream
parenting says kids need boundaries, discipline and consequences.
What that translates to is kids need limits set by parents and other
authoritarian adults and they need to be disciplined by parents and
they need to endure parent (or other adult) invented punishment.
To traditional parents boundaries are rules and limits put in place
to ensure a child will not do what his parents don't want. They
believe without the rules and limits a child would definitely,
willfully and habitually do wrong things.
Traditional parents believe children need to be disciplined (trained)
by adults in order to learn how to be responsible and good. They
believe without the external discipline by an adult a child would
never be conscientious.
Traditional parents believe that in order for a child to lean that
certain things are wrong they must suffer some punishment. Without
consequences traditional parents believe children will strive to find
ways to "get away with" doing the wrong or bad things they are always
secretly hoping to do.
Unschooling parents believe kids are nice people who want to do
well. That changes every interaction with a child. It eliminates
the need for boundaries, discipline and consequences and makes room
for trust, support and compassion.
I think the poster was stuck on the issue of saying no to a child,
wanting maybe, guidelines for times when "no" is an appropriate
response in an unschooling family.
John Rosemond, who has a weekly column and several books about
parenting, maintains a website called "Traditional Parenting." From
that website, here is a link to John Rosemond's bill of rights for
children: http://rosemond.com/index.php?action=website-
view&WebSiteID=389&WebPageID=9896 where he says a child "has a
right" to hear "no" at least three times a day.
I don't believe having one's feelings disregarded by one's parents
builds character. I think it builds resentment. That's not the
relationship I'm striving for with my son. Saying no to someone for
their own character development is manipulative and patronizing and
mean.
I think a child should hear "no" as an answer to requests as little
as possible. I think parents should work very hard to find ways to
say yes to children. I believe people who are new on the planet need
to be facilitated in exploration and adventure and investigation as
much as possible for them to learn and grow happily and be healthy
emotionally and mentally.
Thinking about times when "no" is appropriate will side track a
person from the creative thought process of trying to find ways to
say "yes." I think it's a sticking point that ought to be got over
right quick for unschooling to bloom and grow. If one has to have a
guideline make it to never say "no" automatically or arbitrarily.
Deb Lewis