Was: several things in digest 2700, focusing on teens: sex, drugs & consequences.
Shannon Barniskis
Hi all--I'm new to this list and don't have much of a history with you all, but I can see why others would be unhappy with the list if they're really, really sensitive. See, the thing is, you pull no punches, and you call people on what you see as BS. I think that's great, even when I don't agree with you. For example, I had some problems with some of the ideas about follow-through (during the thread about someone' sister forcing a girl to go to swim lessons) that I perceived as not necessarily serving the child's best interests (i.e. "you don't want to go to class, then skip it" Sound good, but if others are relying on you that's not following your bliss, that's being selfish--which I've seen occasionaly from RU-type folks who are a little too self-absorbed) But I don't flip out because I kinda disagree, I just take what useful for me and leave the rest. Sometimes a couple of you are a little RUier-than-thou in your posts, but I call that passion and am guilty of it myself. Email is a tough format--it's hard to convey feeling sof empathy and support. It's easy to sound preachy. I'm probably doing it now (Sorry)
I beleive the person who said the list was pro-porn is reacting from fear of sex. Sad, but what can you do--most people are like that. Taking it personally would be a mistake in my opinion. We should still be able to talk about sex. So I hereby advocate sex. For older teenagers. When they're ready. And if they're safe. Woo hoo! That was the most dangerous thing I've done all day. Let the controversy begin. Imagine that--someone who is pro-sex and doesn't think their little girl should be 21 before messing around. And I'd give her porn myself if she wanted it--I have a friend who took her daughter to Women's Touch in Madison to scope out the sex toys ina very women-positive lovely shop. I'd take my girl if I though she could handle it or wanted to go. She currently couldn't/doesn't. (Note: my laissez-faire attitude to sex could change. I mean, my 14.5 yo girl still plays with dolls and thinks boys are nice friends but otherwise ucky--if she were actually smooching them I might be a little more uncomfortable with the idea. Is that hypocritical or am I just being realistic?! lol)
And the woman who was looking for a book on sex for her daughter may want to consider Changing Bodies, Changing Lives--it's excellent. I'm a youth services librarian and it's the best book I've ever seen. It speaks frankly and realisitcally about sex and body changes, with huge quantities of teens' own stories. It's the one I bought for my daughter when she was 11. She hasn't read it all because she's super modest and nervous about sex (I don't know where this came from!) but I know that it has what she needs when she's ready for it.
Finally--for whatever it's worth, to the woman who had to kick her 19 yo daughter out--you have my deepest sympathies. That's like a nightmare. But I think you did the best thing you could for her and your whole family. Horrible, hard, and you'll probably never feel good about it, but doesn't it serve her best to learn that she has to treat people with kindness?--even her family. And she must be responsible and get a job--that's just how life works. It seems to me that it would do her a disservice to allow her to mooch while stealing and being so unpleasant. There could be some middle ground if she's just muddling around trying to find what she wants to do, but that middle ground involves a lot of helping out and respect, and she wan't giving that, was she? As for the drugs--it may or may not be drug behavior. I know a lot of teenagers (it's my job, they're in my family, I have one) and I got say this at the risk of sound like a old fogey: Teens are sure different than I was in the late 80s. And I was a little goth girl (ish). I think the current crop of teens are all about instant gratification or something. But I know a lot lot lot of teens and early 20s who just can't seem to get it together. The ones who get their acts together fastest and seem happiest are the ones whose parents have laid down very clear guidelines and consequences, and who have not been allowed to just leech off the family purse. That said, I hope to all the gods I never have to be in your shoes. It gives me a physical pain in my gut to simply think about it.
Be well all of you. And boy, I hope I haven't offended anyone (lol)--Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I beleive the person who said the list was pro-porn is reacting from fear of sex. Sad, but what can you do--most people are like that. Taking it personally would be a mistake in my opinion. We should still be able to talk about sex. So I hereby advocate sex. For older teenagers. When they're ready. And if they're safe. Woo hoo! That was the most dangerous thing I've done all day. Let the controversy begin. Imagine that--someone who is pro-sex and doesn't think their little girl should be 21 before messing around. And I'd give her porn myself if she wanted it--I have a friend who took her daughter to Women's Touch in Madison to scope out the sex toys ina very women-positive lovely shop. I'd take my girl if I though she could handle it or wanted to go. She currently couldn't/doesn't. (Note: my laissez-faire attitude to sex could change. I mean, my 14.5 yo girl still plays with dolls and thinks boys are nice friends but otherwise ucky--if she were actually smooching them I might be a little more uncomfortable with the idea. Is that hypocritical or am I just being realistic?! lol)
And the woman who was looking for a book on sex for her daughter may want to consider Changing Bodies, Changing Lives--it's excellent. I'm a youth services librarian and it's the best book I've ever seen. It speaks frankly and realisitcally about sex and body changes, with huge quantities of teens' own stories. It's the one I bought for my daughter when she was 11. She hasn't read it all because she's super modest and nervous about sex (I don't know where this came from!) but I know that it has what she needs when she's ready for it.
Finally--for whatever it's worth, to the woman who had to kick her 19 yo daughter out--you have my deepest sympathies. That's like a nightmare. But I think you did the best thing you could for her and your whole family. Horrible, hard, and you'll probably never feel good about it, but doesn't it serve her best to learn that she has to treat people with kindness?--even her family. And she must be responsible and get a job--that's just how life works. It seems to me that it would do her a disservice to allow her to mooch while stealing and being so unpleasant. There could be some middle ground if she's just muddling around trying to find what she wants to do, but that middle ground involves a lot of helping out and respect, and she wan't giving that, was she? As for the drugs--it may or may not be drug behavior. I know a lot of teenagers (it's my job, they're in my family, I have one) and I got say this at the risk of sound like a old fogey: Teens are sure different than I was in the late 80s. And I was a little goth girl (ish). I think the current crop of teens are all about instant gratification or something. But I know a lot lot lot of teens and early 20s who just can't seem to get it together. The ones who get their acts together fastest and seem happiest are the ones whose parents have laid down very clear guidelines and consequences, and who have not been allowed to just leech off the family purse. That said, I hope to all the gods I never have to be in your shoes. It gives me a physical pain in my gut to simply think about it.
Be well all of you. And boy, I hope I haven't offended anyone (lol)--Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
I'm not offended Shannon and I enjoyed your post!
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Shannon Barniskis <hawthorn@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:51:44 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Was: several things in digest 2700, focusing on teens: sex, drugs & consequences.
Hi all--I'm new to this list and don't have much of a history with you all, but I can see why others would be unhappy with the list if they're really, really sensitive. See, the thing is, you pull no punches, and you call people on what you see as BS. I think that's great, even when I don't agree with you. For example, I had some problems with some of the ideas about follow-through (during the thread about someone' sister forcing a girl to go to swim lessons) that I perceived as not necessarily serving the child's best interests (i.e. "you don't want to go to class, then skip it" Sound good, but if others are relying on you that's not following your bliss, that's being selfish--which I've seen occasionaly from RU-type folks who are a little too self-absorbed) But I don't flip out because I kinda disagree, I just take what useful for me and leave the rest. Sometimes a couple of you are a little RUier-than-thou in your posts, but I call that passion and am
guilty of it myself. Email is a tough format--it's hard to convey feeling sof empathy and support. It's easy to sound preachy. I'm probably doing it now (Sorry)
I beleive the person who said the list was pro-porn is reacting from fear of sex. Sad, but what can you do--most people are like that. Taking it personally would be a mistake in my opinion. We should still be able to talk about sex. So I hereby advocate sex. For older teenagers. When they're ready. And if they're safe. Woo hoo! That was the most dangerous thing I've done all day. Let the controversy begin. Imagine that--someone who is pro-sex and doesn't think their little girl should be 21 before messing around. And I'd give her porn myself if she wanted it--I have a friend who took her daughter to Women's Touch in Madison to scope out the sex toys ina very women-positive lovely shop. I'd take my girl if I though she could handle it or wanted to go. She currently couldn't/doesn' t. (Note: my laissez-faire attitude to sex could change. I mean, my 14.5 yo girl still plays with dolls and thinks boys are nice friends but otherwise ucky--if she were actually
smooching them I might be a little more uncomfortable with the idea. Is that hypocritical or am I just being realistic?! lol)
And the woman who was looking for a book on sex for her daughter may want to consider Changing Bodies, Changing Lives--it's excellent. I'm a youth services librarian and it's the best book I've ever seen. It speaks frankly and realisitcally about sex and body changes, with huge quantities of teens' own stories. It's the one I bought for my daughter when she was 11. She hasn't read it all because she's super modest and nervous about sex (I don't know where this came from!) but I know that it has what she needs when she's ready for it.
Finally--for whatever it's worth, to the woman who had to kick her 19 yo daughter out--you have my deepest sympathies. That's like a nightmare. But I think you did the best thing you could for her and your whole family. Horrible, hard, and you'll probably never feel good about it, but doesn't it serve her best to learn that she has to treat people with kindness?--even her family. And she must be responsible and get a job--that's just how life works. It seems to me that it would do her a disservice to allow her to mooch while stealing and being so unpleasant. There could be some middle ground if she's just muddling around trying to find what she wants to do, but that middle ground involves a lot of helping out and respect, and she wan't giving that, was she? As for the drugs--it may or may not be drug behavior. I know a lot of teenagers (it's my job, they're in my family, I have one) and I got say this at the risk of sound like a old fogey: Teens are sure
different than I was in the late 80s. And I was a little goth girl (ish). I think the current crop of teens are all about instant gratification or something. But I know a lot lot lot of teens and early 20s who just can't seem to get it together. The ones who get their acts together fastest and seem happiest are the ones whose parents have laid down very clear guidelines and consequences, and who have not been allowed to just leech off the family purse. That said, I hope to all the gods I never have to be in your shoes. It gives me a physical pain in my gut to simply think about it.
Be well all of you. And boy, I hope I haven't offended anyone (lol)--Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Shannon Barniskis <hawthorn@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:51:44 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Was: several things in digest 2700, focusing on teens: sex, drugs & consequences.
Hi all--I'm new to this list and don't have much of a history with you all, but I can see why others would be unhappy with the list if they're really, really sensitive. See, the thing is, you pull no punches, and you call people on what you see as BS. I think that's great, even when I don't agree with you. For example, I had some problems with some of the ideas about follow-through (during the thread about someone' sister forcing a girl to go to swim lessons) that I perceived as not necessarily serving the child's best interests (i.e. "you don't want to go to class, then skip it" Sound good, but if others are relying on you that's not following your bliss, that's being selfish--which I've seen occasionaly from RU-type folks who are a little too self-absorbed) But I don't flip out because I kinda disagree, I just take what useful for me and leave the rest. Sometimes a couple of you are a little RUier-than-thou in your posts, but I call that passion and am
guilty of it myself. Email is a tough format--it's hard to convey feeling sof empathy and support. It's easy to sound preachy. I'm probably doing it now (Sorry)
I beleive the person who said the list was pro-porn is reacting from fear of sex. Sad, but what can you do--most people are like that. Taking it personally would be a mistake in my opinion. We should still be able to talk about sex. So I hereby advocate sex. For older teenagers. When they're ready. And if they're safe. Woo hoo! That was the most dangerous thing I've done all day. Let the controversy begin. Imagine that--someone who is pro-sex and doesn't think their little girl should be 21 before messing around. And I'd give her porn myself if she wanted it--I have a friend who took her daughter to Women's Touch in Madison to scope out the sex toys ina very women-positive lovely shop. I'd take my girl if I though she could handle it or wanted to go. She currently couldn't/doesn' t. (Note: my laissez-faire attitude to sex could change. I mean, my 14.5 yo girl still plays with dolls and thinks boys are nice friends but otherwise ucky--if she were actually
smooching them I might be a little more uncomfortable with the idea. Is that hypocritical or am I just being realistic?! lol)
And the woman who was looking for a book on sex for her daughter may want to consider Changing Bodies, Changing Lives--it's excellent. I'm a youth services librarian and it's the best book I've ever seen. It speaks frankly and realisitcally about sex and body changes, with huge quantities of teens' own stories. It's the one I bought for my daughter when she was 11. She hasn't read it all because she's super modest and nervous about sex (I don't know where this came from!) but I know that it has what she needs when she's ready for it.
Finally--for whatever it's worth, to the woman who had to kick her 19 yo daughter out--you have my deepest sympathies. That's like a nightmare. But I think you did the best thing you could for her and your whole family. Horrible, hard, and you'll probably never feel good about it, but doesn't it serve her best to learn that she has to treat people with kindness?--even her family. And she must be responsible and get a job--that's just how life works. It seems to me that it would do her a disservice to allow her to mooch while stealing and being so unpleasant. There could be some middle ground if she's just muddling around trying to find what she wants to do, but that middle ground involves a lot of helping out and respect, and she wan't giving that, was she? As for the drugs--it may or may not be drug behavior. I know a lot of teenagers (it's my job, they're in my family, I have one) and I got say this at the risk of sound like a old fogey: Teens are sure
different than I was in the late 80s. And I was a little goth girl (ish). I think the current crop of teens are all about instant gratification or something. But I know a lot lot lot of teens and early 20s who just can't seem to get it together. The ones who get their acts together fastest and seem happiest are the ones whose parents have laid down very clear guidelines and consequences, and who have not been allowed to just leech off the family purse. That said, I hope to all the gods I never have to be in your shoes. It gives me a physical pain in my gut to simply think about it.
Be well all of you. And boy, I hope I haven't offended anyone (lol)--Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]