De-lurking with a question;)
Kirsten
Hi all,
I've been following along with various discussions for several weeks
now and it's helping our family along our unschooling journey.
I really appreciate the seasoned unschoolers among you for taking the
time to answer questions and share your experience. Hopefully I can
do the same one day - right now, I think I'm still muddling through it
all and taking it a day at a time.
My daughter is seven and while I've always been philosophically drawn
towards unschooling, it's taken me some time to reassure that anxious
"schooled" voice at the back of my head continually questioning the
validity of what we're doing. We recently moved to an area that has a
supportive IRL unschooling network and that, along with various
boards, is helping tremendously.
For my question, I'm hoping people could share any resources or
personal stories about sex positive parenting. We've had some
experiences lately with playground play that has some
parents a little on edge. It appears to be of the "I'll show you
mine, you show me yours" variety. "Truth or dare" has also made an
appearance - with what I consider pretty innocent dares - "What color
are your underpants?", "Dance like a noodle", etc. The response of
some of the parents involved seems a little alarmist and there is now
talk of "No playing in the bushes", "No truth or dare", etc. While I
want to respect the wishes of these parents, I don't know how to do
this without communicating a "forbidden fruit" type of message to my
daughter.
Just from drawing on my own experience, I knew I wanted to raise my
daughter in a more open and honest atmosphere regarding sex. Growing
up, I never got even an abbreviated version of "the sex talk" and the
results were pretty disastrous. I was definitely a late bloomer
(pretty much terrified of the idea of even kissing someone) and not
having had a model for a healthy sexual relationship, I found it
difficult to set boundaries or to know what I wanted in a
relationship. It took a long time for me to take control of my own
sexuality and I think I missed out on a lot of fun, and spent far too
much time projecting the image of a victim.
In my opinion, it's fairly natural for kids to have some curiosity
about each other. I also think that for very young kids, once that
curiosity is satisfied, without the hormones to back it up, they are
going to lose interest pretty quickly. I think we have a fairly
healthy attitude towards sexuality at our house. Nudity is common, we
use appropriate language to talk about our bodies, she knows where
babies come from. After one game of "Truth or Dare" she said someone
was dared to kiss her. I did have a little internal knee jerk "Oh
no!" reaction, but to her I just sort of laughed and asked if the
little boy had kissed her. She said, "No, he didn't want to, so he had
to take another dare," then she laughed and added, "I'm glad he didn't
want to. I don't want to kiss anyone!" We had a little discussion
about that in which I mentioned how much I look forward to a kiss from
her dad when he gets home from work. She rolled her eyes at this,
"Yeah, but you're grown-ups...and he's your husband."
With my daughter, I've been hesitant to bring up these new playground
rules. She says they like playing in the bushes because they make
trails and little club houses there. She says sometimes she and her
friends want privacy to avoid having to negotiate with younger
siblings. This corresponds with the type of play she has preferred at
home - making little houses out of natural materials, carving out
little private spaces in which to play.
I admit to having asked her and her friend not to play in the bushes
one afternoon and basically, I just said that her friend's mom wasn't
comfortable with it, so while playing with her friend, we needed to
respect that. That afternoon, the kids went into the
bushes anyway, but without first telling me where they were going
(they usually do) and they didn't come out until we had several
anxious parents, myself included, calling their names repeatedly and
bush-whacking up the hill to where we thought they might be. She's
only seven, and so I do need to know where she is. I'm more worried
about not knowing where she is for an extended period of time than
whether or not she and her buddy are stealing kisses in the bushes.
I don't want her to get the idea that there is anything inherently
shameful about what they are doing, if anything. She's pretty
headstrong. I doubt anyone could wheedle her into doing anything she
wasn't comfortable with.
I have read Judith Levine's "Harmful to Minors" and while it is
helpful in a more academic type discussion about how the media and
changing cultural values fuel increased hysteria about the sexual
abuse of children, it's not heavy on advice to the average parent
treading a delicate path.
Thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing the collective wisdom
of the group on this,
Kirsten
I've been following along with various discussions for several weeks
now and it's helping our family along our unschooling journey.
I really appreciate the seasoned unschoolers among you for taking the
time to answer questions and share your experience. Hopefully I can
do the same one day - right now, I think I'm still muddling through it
all and taking it a day at a time.
My daughter is seven and while I've always been philosophically drawn
towards unschooling, it's taken me some time to reassure that anxious
"schooled" voice at the back of my head continually questioning the
validity of what we're doing. We recently moved to an area that has a
supportive IRL unschooling network and that, along with various
boards, is helping tremendously.
For my question, I'm hoping people could share any resources or
personal stories about sex positive parenting. We've had some
experiences lately with playground play that has some
parents a little on edge. It appears to be of the "I'll show you
mine, you show me yours" variety. "Truth or dare" has also made an
appearance - with what I consider pretty innocent dares - "What color
are your underpants?", "Dance like a noodle", etc. The response of
some of the parents involved seems a little alarmist and there is now
talk of "No playing in the bushes", "No truth or dare", etc. While I
want to respect the wishes of these parents, I don't know how to do
this without communicating a "forbidden fruit" type of message to my
daughter.
Just from drawing on my own experience, I knew I wanted to raise my
daughter in a more open and honest atmosphere regarding sex. Growing
up, I never got even an abbreviated version of "the sex talk" and the
results were pretty disastrous. I was definitely a late bloomer
(pretty much terrified of the idea of even kissing someone) and not
having had a model for a healthy sexual relationship, I found it
difficult to set boundaries or to know what I wanted in a
relationship. It took a long time for me to take control of my own
sexuality and I think I missed out on a lot of fun, and spent far too
much time projecting the image of a victim.
In my opinion, it's fairly natural for kids to have some curiosity
about each other. I also think that for very young kids, once that
curiosity is satisfied, without the hormones to back it up, they are
going to lose interest pretty quickly. I think we have a fairly
healthy attitude towards sexuality at our house. Nudity is common, we
use appropriate language to talk about our bodies, she knows where
babies come from. After one game of "Truth or Dare" she said someone
was dared to kiss her. I did have a little internal knee jerk "Oh
no!" reaction, but to her I just sort of laughed and asked if the
little boy had kissed her. She said, "No, he didn't want to, so he had
to take another dare," then she laughed and added, "I'm glad he didn't
want to. I don't want to kiss anyone!" We had a little discussion
about that in which I mentioned how much I look forward to a kiss from
her dad when he gets home from work. She rolled her eyes at this,
"Yeah, but you're grown-ups...and he's your husband."
With my daughter, I've been hesitant to bring up these new playground
rules. She says they like playing in the bushes because they make
trails and little club houses there. She says sometimes she and her
friends want privacy to avoid having to negotiate with younger
siblings. This corresponds with the type of play she has preferred at
home - making little houses out of natural materials, carving out
little private spaces in which to play.
I admit to having asked her and her friend not to play in the bushes
one afternoon and basically, I just said that her friend's mom wasn't
comfortable with it, so while playing with her friend, we needed to
respect that. That afternoon, the kids went into the
bushes anyway, but without first telling me where they were going
(they usually do) and they didn't come out until we had several
anxious parents, myself included, calling their names repeatedly and
bush-whacking up the hill to where we thought they might be. She's
only seven, and so I do need to know where she is. I'm more worried
about not knowing where she is for an extended period of time than
whether or not she and her buddy are stealing kisses in the bushes.
I don't want her to get the idea that there is anything inherently
shameful about what they are doing, if anything. She's pretty
headstrong. I doubt anyone could wheedle her into doing anything she
wasn't comfortable with.
I have read Judith Levine's "Harmful to Minors" and while it is
helpful in a more academic type discussion about how the media and
changing cultural values fuel increased hysteria about the sexual
abuse of children, it's not heavy on advice to the average parent
treading a delicate path.
Thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing the collective wisdom
of the group on this,
Kirsten
Fetteroll
On Jul 20, 2007, at 3:36 PM, Kirsten wrote:
confusing you.
Focus on helping her be safe in any social situation. Help her figure
out how to recognize when she feels uncomfortable in a situation and
work out strategies to help her get out of it.
Can't help with the strategies, but it will help you see it better if
you look at it from that direction.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> For my question, I'm hoping people could share any resources orI think you're overly focusing on the sex aspect and that's
> personal stories about sex positive parenting.
confusing you.
Focus on helping her be safe in any social situation. Help her figure
out how to recognize when she feels uncomfortable in a situation and
work out strategies to help her get out of it.
Can't help with the strategies, but it will help you see it better if
you look at it from that direction.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kirsten
Hi Joyce,
Thanks. I think you have articulated what I'm feeling about some of
the other parents involved - the sex aspect is being overemphasized
and I think coloring the discussion a little too much.
Absolutely, my first concern is my daughter's safety and I think we're
doing a pretty good job there. We've never pushed the whole "Don't
talk to strangers" thing and she has grown up feeling free to trust
her instincts in whatever situations come her way. If there is
something she doesn't quite feel equipped to deal with, she's not
afraid to come and ask for help.
To clarify - in this situation, I don't think she is uncomfortable or
unsafe at all. Given my daughter's personality, I don't think she is
being pressured into doing anything she doesn't want to and from my
conversations with her, I don't think there's anything happening to
cause concern.
My concern is how to explain the new playground rules to her. After
the recent games of "Truth or Dare", the consensus seems to be that a
sexual element has been introduced to the children's play and that we
should do everything we can to stop it, including introducing some
pretty arbitrary playground rules - banning the game and telling the
children that playing in the bushes (within earshot, but out of sight)
is no longer allowed.
Since my daughter thinks "Truth or Dare" is just a fun game wherein
she and her friends get to "dare each other do wacky things", I am
finding it hard to explain why the game makes some of the adults feel
uncomfortable. The same with the bushes. I believe my daughter when
she tells me she likes playing there for a specific set of reasons,
none of which have to do with sexual exploration. It therefore seems
arbitrary to ban this.
She asks me outright, "Why aren't we allowed to play in there?" and
"Why was it okay before, but not now?". The answer to this question,
in my mind is adult hysteria, but that's not the answer that's going
to satisfy my seven year old and, out of respect for the other
parents, I'm not going to take that approach.
I hope that articulates my concern a little better.
Thanks again,
Kirsten
Thanks. I think you have articulated what I'm feeling about some of
the other parents involved - the sex aspect is being overemphasized
and I think coloring the discussion a little too much.
Absolutely, my first concern is my daughter's safety and I think we're
doing a pretty good job there. We've never pushed the whole "Don't
talk to strangers" thing and she has grown up feeling free to trust
her instincts in whatever situations come her way. If there is
something she doesn't quite feel equipped to deal with, she's not
afraid to come and ask for help.
To clarify - in this situation, I don't think she is uncomfortable or
unsafe at all. Given my daughter's personality, I don't think she is
being pressured into doing anything she doesn't want to and from my
conversations with her, I don't think there's anything happening to
cause concern.
My concern is how to explain the new playground rules to her. After
the recent games of "Truth or Dare", the consensus seems to be that a
sexual element has been introduced to the children's play and that we
should do everything we can to stop it, including introducing some
pretty arbitrary playground rules - banning the game and telling the
children that playing in the bushes (within earshot, but out of sight)
is no longer allowed.
Since my daughter thinks "Truth or Dare" is just a fun game wherein
she and her friends get to "dare each other do wacky things", I am
finding it hard to explain why the game makes some of the adults feel
uncomfortable. The same with the bushes. I believe my daughter when
she tells me she likes playing there for a specific set of reasons,
none of which have to do with sexual exploration. It therefore seems
arbitrary to ban this.
She asks me outright, "Why aren't we allowed to play in there?" and
"Why was it okay before, but not now?". The answer to this question,
in my mind is adult hysteria, but that's not the answer that's going
to satisfy my seven year old and, out of respect for the other
parents, I'm not going to take that approach.
I hope that articulates my concern a little better.
Thanks again,
Kirsten
--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2007, at 3:36 PM, Kirsten wrote:
>
> > For my question, I'm hoping people could share any resources or
> > personal stories about sex positive parenting.
>
> I think you're overly focusing on the sex aspect and that's
> confusing you.
>
> Focus on helping her be safe in any social situation. Help her figure
> out how to recognize when she feels uncomfortable in a situation and
> work out strategies to help her get out of it.
>
> Can't help with the strategies, but it will help you see it better if
> you look at it from that direction.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Kirsten" <sushimeow@...>
wrote:
were discussed?
If it were my kid I would say - you are allowed to play this but
some of the other parents do not want to have their kids playing- if
she asked why then state that the parents think this game might lead
to dares that kids feel pressured to take and the parents do not
know if their kid would just say no.
I think you said she was 7 so I think that would be a good
conversation to have with her.
You can make it less about being sexual and more about the ability
to say NO when you do not want to do something.
Are you able to maybe take this approach with the other parents? You
could say they could make dares that do not involve touching each
other. So no kissing dares but maybe go kiss the tree.
I hope that helps in some way
Julie
wrote:
>After
>
> My concern is how to explain the new playground rules to her.
> the recent games of "Truth or Dare", the consensus seems to bethat a
> sexual element has been introduced to the children's play and thatwe
> should do everything we can to stop it, including introducing somethe
> pretty arbitrary playground rules - banning the game and telling
> children that playing in the bushes (within earshot, but out ofsight)
> is no longer allowed.Did you agree with these unoffical rules? Were you there when they
were discussed?
If it were my kid I would say - you are allowed to play this but
some of the other parents do not want to have their kids playing- if
she asked why then state that the parents think this game might lead
to dares that kids feel pressured to take and the parents do not
know if their kid would just say no.
I think you said she was 7 so I think that would be a good
conversation to have with her.
You can make it less about being sexual and more about the ability
to say NO when you do not want to do something.
Are you able to maybe take this approach with the other parents? You
could say they could make dares that do not involve touching each
other. So no kissing dares but maybe go kiss the tree.
I hope that helps in some way
Julie
diana jenner
On 7/21/07, Kirsten <sushimeow@...> wrote:
just want to explain it *is* their hysteria causing this arbitrariness.
They are responding out of fear. They're afraid their children don't
understand how to keep themselves safe. Explain that you trust her to *trust
her tummy* (how I explained to my kids the warning our own instinct gives
us), the other mommies don't have that trust in their kids. Talk of how
*she* is good at protecting herself from other people touching/acting/doing
things she is uncomfortable with, and other kids just don't know how to do
that, so their parents feel they must do it for them.
We're dealing with a similar situation... Hayden, 8.75, is good friends with
two little girls who are 9 & 11 (NOT unschoolers). I've known their mother
almost 30 years and the kids have known each other for all of their lives.
Their dad says "no sleepovers with boys" period. The kids want to get
together and have big chunks of time to play and visit... Dad says NO. Does
he really think Hayden and the girls would do anything? I don't think so,
but he has it in his head that Boys are evil for Girls and it doesn't matter
that it's not just any boy, it's HAYDEN. The rule is the rule is the rule.
I've got a very brokenhearted boy at my house whom I'm comforting without
knowing exactly what to say... The Dad is being stupid. period. I can't
justify, I can't explain (I won't, in fact, as I don't know how to explain
the guy's perspective without leaving some weird shadow of what it means to
be male in Hayden's mind...) -- I'm left with saying it just sucks and we'll
do what we can to get you guys together without it being an overnighter.
I think the worst part is that we had sleepovers all the time when Hannah
was alive...
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Out of respect for your 7 year old (and your relationship with her), you may
> She asks me outright, "Why aren't we allowed to play in there?" and
> "Why was it okay before, but not now?". The answer to this question,
> in my mind is adult hysteria, but that's not the answer that's going
> to satisfy my seven year old and, out of respect for the other
> parents, I'm not going to take that approach.
> .__,_._,
>
just want to explain it *is* their hysteria causing this arbitrariness.
They are responding out of fear. They're afraid their children don't
understand how to keep themselves safe. Explain that you trust her to *trust
her tummy* (how I explained to my kids the warning our own instinct gives
us), the other mommies don't have that trust in their kids. Talk of how
*she* is good at protecting herself from other people touching/acting/doing
things she is uncomfortable with, and other kids just don't know how to do
that, so their parents feel they must do it for them.
We're dealing with a similar situation... Hayden, 8.75, is good friends with
two little girls who are 9 & 11 (NOT unschoolers). I've known their mother
almost 30 years and the kids have known each other for all of their lives.
Their dad says "no sleepovers with boys" period. The kids want to get
together and have big chunks of time to play and visit... Dad says NO. Does
he really think Hayden and the girls would do anything? I don't think so,
but he has it in his head that Boys are evil for Girls and it doesn't matter
that it's not just any boy, it's HAYDEN. The rule is the rule is the rule.
I've got a very brokenhearted boy at my house whom I'm comforting without
knowing exactly what to say... The Dad is being stupid. period. I can't
justify, I can't explain (I won't, in fact, as I don't know how to explain
the guy's perspective without leaving some weird shadow of what it means to
be male in Hayden's mind...) -- I'm left with saying it just sucks and we'll
do what we can to get you guys together without it being an overnighter.
I think the worst part is that we had sleepovers all the time when Hannah
was alive...
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~
Just from drawing on my own experience, I knew I wanted to raise my
daughter in a more open and honest atmosphere regarding sex. ~~
It sounds like you already are doing that. When we encounter arbitrary
rules with other parents, I simply explain that the other parents
don't want their child doing x,y,z and leave it at that. This has
sometimes led to "but Jalen (or whomever) gets to_______" from some
unhappy child.
Sometimes after explaining that the other parents don't like their
child doing an activity, he will choose to stop also. Sometimes he'll
say "well that's stupid" and continue.:)
If there is no harm then I'm not going to place that burden on my child.
In a group situation like that, I really don't think it will make her
feel there is some "forbidden" aspect by telling her the other parents
have these rules and you don't agree but can she help out for that
time period?
Then go find some friends that aren't so uptight about some innocent
curiosity. argh.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Just from drawing on my own experience, I knew I wanted to raise my
daughter in a more open and honest atmosphere regarding sex. ~~
It sounds like you already are doing that. When we encounter arbitrary
rules with other parents, I simply explain that the other parents
don't want their child doing x,y,z and leave it at that. This has
sometimes led to "but Jalen (or whomever) gets to_______" from some
unhappy child.
Sometimes after explaining that the other parents don't like their
child doing an activity, he will choose to stop also. Sometimes he'll
say "well that's stupid" and continue.:)
If there is no harm then I'm not going to place that burden on my child.
In a group situation like that, I really don't think it will make her
feel there is some "forbidden" aspect by telling her the other parents
have these rules and you don't agree but can she help out for that
time period?
Then go find some friends that aren't so uptight about some innocent
curiosity. argh.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Kirsten
Thank you (Ren, Diana, Julie, Joyce) for giving me some guidance on
this.
It feels good to have some concrete strategies tucked into my tool belt.
Kirsten
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
this.
It feels good to have some concrete strategies tucked into my tool belt.
Kirsten
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~
>
> Just from drawing on my own experience, I knew I wanted to raise my
> daughter in a more open and honest atmosphere regarding sex. ~~
>
> It sounds like you already are doing that. When we encounter arbitrary
> rules with other parents, I simply explain that the other parents
> don't want their child doing x,y,z and leave it at that. This has
> sometimes led to "but Jalen (or whomever) gets to_______" from some
> unhappy child.
>
> Sometimes after explaining that the other parents don't like their
> child doing an activity, he will choose to stop also. Sometimes he'll
> say "well that's stupid" and continue.:)
> If there is no harm then I'm not going to place that burden on my child.
>
> In a group situation like that, I really don't think it will make her
> feel there is some "forbidden" aspect by telling her the other parents
> have these rules and you don't agree but can she help out for that
> time period?
> Then go find some friends that aren't so uptight about some innocent
> curiosity. argh.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
In a group situation like that, I really don't think it will make her
feel there is some "forbidden" aspect by telling her the other parents
have these rules and you don't agree but can she help out for that
time period?
Then go find some friends that aren't so uptight about some innocent
curiosity. argh.
-=-=-=-
And here *I* would be the obnoxious weirdo!
I'd have to inform these parents exactly how ridiculous they are being!
Shake some damned sense into them. I couldn't sit by while they made
stupid rules that made no sense, and I would have to be sure that the
kids heard me be so outraged---my kids and theirs.
I don't know....I think that just going along with nonsense
is...well...nonsensical. And if the parents thought that not allowing
their children to have these freedoms *now* was going to keep their
children out of trouble ---well, they were just nuts.
I couldn't let all that ignorance go unchallenged.
But I'm irritating like that!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
In a group situation like that, I really don't think it will make her
feel there is some "forbidden" aspect by telling her the other parents
have these rules and you don't agree but can she help out for that
time period?
Then go find some friends that aren't so uptight about some innocent
curiosity. argh.
-=-=-=-
And here *I* would be the obnoxious weirdo!
I'd have to inform these parents exactly how ridiculous they are being!
Shake some damned sense into them. I couldn't sit by while they made
stupid rules that made no sense, and I would have to be sure that the
kids heard me be so outraged---my kids and theirs.
I don't know....I think that just going along with nonsense
is...well...nonsensical. And if the parents thought that not allowing
their children to have these freedoms *now* was going to keep their
children out of trouble ---well, they were just nuts.
I couldn't let all that ignorance go unchallenged.
But I'm irritating like that!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.