Robert Saxon

Right, there are some good things here helping me out, BUT--

I have a related question, and it's something I'm struggling with: If she
made a commitment to the swim team, then shouldn't she go to the swim
meeting? Let's assume the best here, namely that she wanted to join the
swim team on her own (no pushing from her mom or anyone else, her own
desire). She made an agreement. Should she not honor that agreement (by
attending the swim meeting)? Maybe I'm stuck in some previous era where
supposedly someone's word was their bond. How do they learn this?

Follow-up: At what age can we expect children to start abiding by their
agreements? (Loaded question, I know, I'm sure it depends a lot on how
doing that was modeled to them by parents and others.)

OK, stepping back...

If this were me, I think I'd still let her play with company instead of
going. I would point out her agreement, but would let her make the
decision.

When I say "I would point out her agreement," I mean I would remind her of
her agreement much like you might remind a visiting friend who was about to
leave that she was forgetting her umbrella. If I mentioned that it was
important to me, I would make sure she understood that I would be fine with
whatever decision she made. Voice supportive, neutral, and no hidden "I'm
fine as long as you choose what I want you to choose."

--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5.5) and Elissa (4)


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Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>> Maybe I'm stuck in some previous era where
> supposedly someone's word was their bond. How do they learn this?
>

And yet even in that previous era people went back on their words,
renegged on contracts and cheated on spouses. When do people
actually keep their words? When there is something about keeping the
promise that is more personally valuble than breaking it. For *some*
people (now as in the past) a reputation of trustworthiness or an
internal standard of honor is what's valuble. But you can't teach
that, or there wouldn't be the expression "black sheep of the
family".

> Follow-up: At what age can we expect children to start abiding by
their
> agreements? (Loaded question, I know, I'm sure it depends a lot
on how
> doing that was modeled to them by parents and others.)
>

It depends, first of all, on development. A kid who is free to
choose may nonetheless not be ready to make decisions about tomorrow
or six weeks from now. Morgan will be 6 in a month and its only in
the last six months that she's been able to make plans for tomorrow.
Just in the last few weeks she's started to talk about doing
something in several days' time. So there's no way at this time that
she could make a real commitment to do something every week for
several weeks. Its beyond her comprehension. Asking her to "honor"
an agreement she isn't really capable of understanding would teach
her about coercion, not decision-making.

Beyond that, it depends on the person in question having the skills
to make decisions based on a multitude of complex factors, some
pretty far reaching. How do people learn to make those kinds of
decisions? Personally, I'd say being made to go through with short-
term committments regardless of other factors isn't terribly helpful
to this process.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>
> I'm struggling with: If she
> made a commitment to the swim team, then shouldn't she go to the swim
> meeting? Let's assume the best here, namely that she wanted to join
the
> swim team on her own (no pushing from her mom or anyone else, her own
> desire). She made an agreement. Should she not honor that
agreement (by
> attending the swim meeting)? Maybe I'm stuck in some previous era
where
> supposedly someone's word was their bond. How do they learn this?
>


I think it may help to look at this from a adult perspective and not a
childs. If an adult had swim team and family came to visit is it all
right to skip the practice? Sometimes I think we get too focused on
kids have to complete or finish something or for that matter adults.
Is there a reason we should continue to do something it we are DONE
with it or skip it?

I think it is situational- at least for me it is- I think that it is
okay to break a "bond" or "your word" if you can do it with honor and
honor is different for different people.

I personally get fed up with people who think they HAVE to do
something or be somewhere when it is a choice. She choose to have her
daughter go to swim instead of visiting with relatives- to me that
sounds like swim was more important than a family visit.

Robert Saxon

My DW and I have been 'round this type of issue before. I'm almost always
the one pushing the "we must do what we said we would do" and she's always
bringing reality into it, darn her eyes. For example, family is more
important that swimming (even if we have paid for it, but money just adds
more fuel to the fire), or that it's just one practice and that there isn't
a competition coming up anytime soon so there's no real rush, or that it's
fine to be late meeting DW's aunt for supper because she is always late (and
she always is), or some such thing.

I've mellowed out a lot on this, but emotionally it's still an issue and I
haven't figured out completely what to do with it yet. Continually
reminding myself of these things does help. Thank you.

>> I personally get fed up with people who think they HAVE to do
something or be somewhere when it is a choice. <<

That's where I get tripped up. Half the time I see it as an obligation, not
a choice.

>> Its beyond her comprehension. Asking her to "honor"
an agreement she isn't really capable of understanding would teach
her about coercion, not decision-making. <<

You mean I shouldn't teach her to turn her brain off and just blindly follow
a set of precepts/whatever I say? Is that a bad thing??? ;-)

>> Beyond that, it depends on the person in question having the skills
to make decisions based on a multitude of complex factors, some
pretty far reaching. <<

If many adults can't or won't do it, why am I trying to teach (force) them
to do it? It's a complex skill or set of skills. And the way for them to
"learn" it is through their own experience, not by some ham-handed force-fed
approach.

As someone recently told me (and it makes sense to me), the goal of RU is to
allow children to become more fully who they are. Education happens as a
side-effect. Sometimes (sometimes?) it's difficult to trust that these
things will come about in their own time, at the right time. It's tough to
reduce my use of the word "teach" when talking about what my children know.
My "teaching" is best done when I'm engaged with them and when I show how I
live my life.


--Rob Saxon


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Ren Allen

~~She made an agreement. Should she not honor that agreement (by
attending the swim meeting)? ~~

No.
A young child does not have the developmental ability to understand
long-term commitments. Period. Any adult that expects them to be able
to, is at fault for any default on agreement and really needs to learn
more about child development!

Besides, as an adult I can re-negotiate ANY agreements I make. Why
shouldn't a child do the same?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~Asking her to "honor" an agreement she isn't really capable of
understanding would teach her about coercion, not decision-making.~~

Exactly!
I think parents really ought to look at the ways an interest can be
pursued LONG before they ever consider a class or formal arrangement
of any kind. Kids NEED to dabble in and out of interests for a long
time before true passion can take hold. Heck, some of us are life-long
dabblers.

We really don't ever look at classes or lessons when our kids start
being interested in something. That comes later, when the interest has
cemented a bit. For many children, formal clubs/classes/teams are a
sure-fire way to kill joy because they really don't understand long
term commitment.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~As someone recently told me (and it makes sense to me), the goal of
RU is to allow children to become more fully who they are. Education
happens as a side-effect. ~~

I whole-heartedly agree.:)
I think you have young children Robert? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I know it's a lot harder to trust this flow when you're oldest is
still a wee one. But when you have teens/almost adults, it's really
EASY to say "don't worry, they'll figure it out" because you know they
really WILL.

Trevor got interested in guitar a few years ago. He got one for
Christmas and dabbled with it for several months then decided that
guitar lessons would be nice. We searched for a teacher that would let
him learn whatever he wanted to learn. We found one and he took
lessons for a year before deciding that he was finished.

Just like that, he was done. Was our money "wasted" because he quit
playing guitar? Heck no! There was great enjoyment of music and guitar
playing for that entire year. He really loved his teacher (who had
played for some big names and basically just showed him how to play
songs he liked...from ACDC to Metallica and beyond) and looked forward
to lessons.

So.....the guitar has sat for several years untouched. The amp had
died so there was no reason to dabble with it. Guess what? He started
mentioning he might like a new amp a few months ago.

Dh brought home a new amp and new guitar strings for him last night.
Trevor was thrilled. It's a small used one, but that matters little.
He played guitar all day today and beamed about what a great day it
was. He's back at it again. Who knows how long it will last. Maybe a
week, maybe a lifetime.

What matters to us is that he owned this experience all along. Having
watched him all these years let's me know that learning IS a journey
unique to each individual. Development happens and we really don't
need to sweat whether our kids will understand long-term commitment or
how to tie shoes or ride a bike or how to read or ANYTHING. Really.

It will come in it's own good time. They will try new things and let a
lot go....interests swirl up and in and out and back around again. If
they don't know anything about the solar system today, they might
tomorrow or next week or when they're 20.

"When" is so much less important than "why".

Robert Saxon

Ren,

Yes, I've got two, ages 5.5 and a bit over 4. And yes if you haven't
guessed, I'm still in the very-much theoretical stage. I'm practicing as
much as possible, but just as soon as I feel like I've got something down in
practice, another "parenting fear" (gotta make sure our kids are raised up
RIGHT!) comes back up. Like "commitment." and the whole "what do I do
about THAT?" These discussions point out the need for more child
development info.

This whole RU thing is one big re-modeling of my concepts of parenting.
What really frustrates me is that whenever we're around other families, I
feel sucked into yet another game of "Whose Kids Are The Best?" and "The
Comparison Game!" You lose points whenever little Janie hits someone else,
but the parent can score by how they react. And the judges are the other
parents. It's liberating to let that horse manure go (when it can be
manageed). Knowing where my kids are, and what they need gives more
confidence in how we interact together. It helps me toss out the need for
other parents' approval. Well, OK, a bit, but I think it's slowly coming.

--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years!
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5.8) and Elissa (4.25)


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Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>>Heck, some of us are life-long
> dabblers.

And some life-long dabblers are pretty famous... DaVinci and Aristotle
come to mind. And wasn't Ben Franklin kind of a dabbler?

For that matter, part of the idea of a "well rounded education" is
that kids need to dabble in a bunch of different subjects to find out
what they like and are good at. Trouble is they aren't trusted to
decide what to dabble in and when.

One of the fears that parents have wrt pulling kids out of school is
that they don't seem to have *enough* interests - well, all their
dabbling is being sucked up by school. It was almost six months after
leaving school before Ray started dabbling. It was kind of exciting.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Lisa

Rob,
My husband struggles with the same things that you mentioned. When
we first got married (many MANY years ago! ha!) his grandparents
and/or father would ask if we would be attending church that weekend
(their tradition was to attend church together and then go out for
lunch) if he said we were planning on it then he absolutely just
could not get up in the morning and NOT go! There were times when we
decided we were tired or just didn't feel like going to church that
morning but he really had a big problem with it! I think the biggest
issue for him was that if we didn't go we would be reminded that we
didn't go (don't you know you go straight to special hell if you don't
go to church with your overbearing, guilt inducing grandparents and
father every Sunday? or at least in the south you do) his grandmother
and his father can induce guilt for things you never even thought to
do. They possessed an ability to see inner motivation in their
errant, evil family member (I wonder if they can foresee lottery
numbers? ). It became quite an issue for me because it really wasn't
about church or us going or not going or even our word.,..it was about
control... they wanted it and I at least was not wiling to give it to
them!

While I was raised very differently from the way I am raising my
children my parents were always willing to discuss something that I
wanted or didn't want to do and my viewpoint was always valued and
considered in the decision. It took my husband a really long time
to be able to wrest that control from their hands... ok actually his
grandmother died so that helped but his father is still around and we
still have issues on occasion where we have to remind him we are
adults and his opinion wasn't asked for.

I struggle with the whole making a commitment to a team thing as well
but only as it relates to whether the team can continue or not if the
child decides not to go. I also ask that the child let someone know
they aren't coming if they are expected (common courtesy in my opinion
which I think is sorely lacking in our society!) I have also found
that when my kids sign up for a team or class etc and suddenly don't
want to go there's usually a reason ...rarely is it just they don't
want to that day. Usually it's a situation that can be worked out by
me helping them role play a good solution or giving them something
that might help them see the viewpoint of another person and there
have been times I have spoken to the teacher or coach.

One time in particular my oldest suddenly wanted to quit an activity
she had LOVED ... it was time to leave for the activity and she burst
into tears and said she really just wanted to quit! Once we talked
about it I found out that a leader she really respected had been
really sarcastic and grumpy to the kids the last few meetings and her
feelings were really hurt. I spoke to the leader and he was very
upset that some stress he was feeling in his life had surfaced in his
dealings with the kids.. he apologized to Sarah and we now count him
as a very dear friend. Now when he says something sarcastic Sarah
feels comfortable calling him on it because he gave her that
permission. It also taught her that adults are not infallible and
that she is not powerless in such situations. There are so many
things in life that make us feel powerless ... it's great for our kids
to have situations where they can work out these skills.
Heck the darn swim team can probably go right on without the first
poster's niece but that little baby cousin she wanted to see will only
be little for a very short time!
Lisa Blocker

diana jenner

I spoke to a couple of high school *jocks* when my kids were beginning their
interest in group sports, to get a feel on the *commitment factor* and how
it plays into their experiences. These girls were seniors in a very small
town where the coercion was HUGE to play multiple sports.
One girl was adamant there was nothing worse than teammates who don't want
to be there. She'd prefer to play with others who were as happy to be there
as she was. I think she'd've played lots of sports regardless of the
coercion.
The other girl agreed and then gave me her parents' party line of "one must
follow through with their commitments" -- it was obvious those were not her
own words and all three of us realized it immediately. She then went on to
say she really only liked ONE of the things she was involved in and excels
there; the other FOUR activities were the wishes of others and yeah, she
didn't give 100% and sometimes it really would be better if the group was
solely of those who had passion.
-=-=-=-=-
Hayden (soon 9) has not been interested in group/team stuff lately. When he
wanted to play basketball (he was 6.5), he was on a team with a couple of
friends and decided pretty quickly that this was not for him. He stopped
going and his friends played with him at other times, it was no big deal
that the b-ball team wasn't a match. He still plays basketball and loves it.
When he wants more or different, he'll ask and we'll figure out what to do.
I started a full moon circle last summer. I don't go anymore; the women I
gathered still meet. Cool! It just wasn't what I needed, I'm glad it's what
they need. When/if I need it, the full moon will still be there for me to
celebrate every month and I'll still be able to round up some friends to do
that with.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


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