Sharon Thomas

**It is *not* a large subject in the scary way you are saying - that is your
residual schoolthink talking. **

Robyn,
I agree with your post but have to say I have thought some of the same
thoughts as the previous poster.I thought I had worked through my doubts but
with our teenage son who wants to go into robotics I have found myself
wondering if I should have or should be doing something more on the math
subject. He understands all about electronics and motors etc. but still has
no interest in learning about other math that may be on the tests. I am
letting him make his own choices and I am hoping he will learn what he needs
when he needs it. I know that is not very confident but I haven't gone
through a child wanting to go to a trade school.
We have known 2 families that homeschooled in a relaxed way. When their
kids hit their teenage/high school years they became very resentful of their
parents not keeping them up to grade level.I have surmised that part of it
was one families kids had several ps friends and it made a difference in how
they viewed themselves. The oldest daughter had opted for ps and shared all
she was doing or able to do.In the other family they weren't around other ps
kids but for some reason they were upset.Probably influences I knew nothing
about or things going on internally that I didn't see. That has been my
secret" fear.....would love to feel confident enough to let go of it for
good.

**
Of course if you spend your time anxiously watching for math "teachable
moments" to appear, and saying things like "This is really hard stuff, so
don't worry if you don't get it right away" even in your own mind, you are
well on the way to creating math phobia without a school to assist you.**

If your child is struggling over figuring out the answer are you saying it
would be the wrong wording to say..."take your time and don't feel bad if
you don't get it the first time?" If so please explain.
This is something I would say or have said. If I can understand why it isn't
helpful it would help me.

sharon





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/2004 11:09:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
meplusfive@... writes:

I agree with your post but have to say I have thought some of the same
thoughts as the previous poster.I thought I had worked through my doubts but
with our teenage son who wants to go into robotics I have found myself
wondering if I should have or should be doing something more on the math
subject. He understands all about electronics and motors etc. but still has
no interest in learning about other math that may be on the tests. I am
letting him make his own choices and I am hoping he will learn what he needs
when he needs it. I know that is not very confident but I haven't gone
through a child wanting to go to a trade school. <<<<

There are books on robotics and there are people who build them If he's
interested, he will ask the questions and look for the answers. Your job would be
to help him find those resources.


>>>>We have known 2 families that homeschooled in a relaxed way. When their
kids hit their teenage/high school years they became very resentful of their
parents not keeping them up to grade level.I have surmised that part of it
was one families kids had several ps friends and it made a difference in how
they viewed themselves. <snip> That has been my
secret" fear.....would love to feel confident enough to let go of it for
good.<<<<<

Were they unschooled? Or were they still expected to perform? Did they KNOW
that "grade level" is a non-existent measurement? Did they KNOW that? Did they
enjoy what they were doing? Did they DO *any*thing? Did they have passions
that were fed and nurtured? Did the parents? Were the children viewed as
individuals with unique and fascinating qualities to share with the world? Were
they celebrated as such? Did the children believe that about themselves?

All MUCH more valid questions!

>>>>>Of course if you spend your time anxiously watching for math "teachable
moments" to appear, and saying things like "This is really hard stuff, so
don't worry if you don't get it right away" even in your own mind, you are
well on the way to creating math phobia without a school to assist you.**

If your child is struggling over figuring out the answer are you saying it
would be the wrong wording to say..."take your time and don't feel bad if
you don't get it the first time?" If so please explain.
This is something I would say or have said. If I can understand why it isn't
helpful it would help me.<<<<

First question: Why is he struggling over figuring out the answer?

Who asked the question? Why?

Why wouldn't you just give him the answer?

I'd just give him the answer or tips to figure it out.

~Kelly








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Thomas

Kelly,
I am being open in answering your post.I have a feeling my answer may not
be right but here goes.

First question: Why is he struggling over figuring out the answer?

**because he doesn't know how to do it**


Who asked the question? Why?

**most of the time it is a money problem he is faced with and can't come up
with the answer as quickly as it is needed by the clerk.I have told him the
answer quietly but I know he is embarassed.Maybe it is more my feeling bad
for him and wanting to teach him so he won't feel that way.**

Why wouldn't you just give him the answer?

** this is where I think my answer may be out of sync with unschooling.I
haven't thought about it alot which is probably why my first response is...
because how will he learn if I keep giving him the answer? I know how it
sounds coming out but it is an honest reply. Clearly one I need to change...
because it will not help to create a learning environment.
I feel like I should know better but the truth is I keep seeing areas I
hadn't thought about that are affecting our relationships and it feels like.
.Ouch!!

sharon

I'd just give him the answer or tips to figure it out.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<I agree with your post but have to say I have thought some of the same
thoughts as the previous poster.I thought I had worked through my doubts but
with our teenage son who wants to go into robotics I have found myself
wondering if I should have or should be doing something more on the math
subject. He understands all about electronics and motors etc. but still has
no interest in learning about other math that may be on the tests. I am
letting him make his own choices and I am hoping he will learn what he needs
when he needs it. I know that is not very confident but I haven't gone
through a child wanting to go to a trade school. >>>

Rather than worrying about what "may" be on tests my suggestion would be to
get some sample or previous year tests from the relevant schools and let him
try them out if he wants. He will either find out what he needs to address
or that he already knows enough to go on with. Test taking is a whole
different skill from using math.

<<<We have known 2 families that homeschooled in a relaxed way. When their
kids hit their teenage/high school years they became very resentful of their
parents not keeping them up to grade level.I have surmised that part of it
was one families kids had several ps friends and it made a difference in how
they viewed themselves. The oldest daughter had opted for ps and shared all
she was doing or able to do.In the other family they weren't around other ps
kids but for some reason they were upset.Probably influences I knew nothing
about or things going on internally that I didn't see. That has been my
secret" fear.....would love to feel confident enough to let go of it for
good.>>>>

My daughter is 4.5. I have nothing to add to this except to say that I am
not about to start borrowing stress from one possible future, but parents
with teens may have ideas of how to either avoid or deal with these
feelings.

<<<< If your child is struggling over figuring out the answer are you
saying it would be the wrong wording to say..."take your time and don't feel
bad if you don't get it the first time?" If so please explain.

This is something I would say or have said. If I can understand why it isn't
helpful it would help me.>>>>

My initial idea is about categorizing something as difficult *in advance* of
the child's experience - building something like reading or math up as a
tough skill to learn, just because the school culture must characterize
things as hard to learn in order to justify the structures and time spent on
"teaching" them. The child may not find the skill or concept difficult for
all we can know beforehand.

From a wider perspective, I would never negate my child's feelings by saying
"Don't feel bad". It is ok to be disappointed or frustrated. If you are
Unschooling, where is the time limit coming from, and why do you *need* to
say "Take your time"? When Jayn struggles with something, hmmmm I'm actually
trying to recall an occasion when she has found something difficult enough
that she has gotten really angry. She tends to just ask for help, like
getting past one obstacle in one of her computer games, or stop for a while.
I guess I just validate it "Gee that looks complicated" or "Oh, you have to
start again", or more often not make any comment at all. Historically she
has always been able to accomplish whatever it is, given time, the next time
or the next whenever.

As Jayn has never been in school, the only residual schoolthink in our lives
belongs to dh and I - she has no concept of timed tests for example, other
than beating the clock within a computer or x-box game. The consequences of
"failure" are simply "do it again", so no big deal.

Robyn L. Coburn

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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/2004 12:08:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
meplusfive@... writes:

I am being open in answering your post.I have a feeling my answer may not
be right but here goes.

First question: Why is he struggling over figuring out the answer?

**because he doesn't know how to do it**


Who asked the question? Why?

**most of the time it is a money problem he is faced with and can't come up
with the answer as quickly as it is needed by the clerk.I have told him the
answer quietly but I know he is embarassed.Maybe it is more my feeling bad
for him and wanting to teach him so he won't feel that way.** <<<<<

How old is he? Has he been in school?

Cameron (16 and schooled through 6th grade) is more aware of his math skills
than Duncan (8) is----Duncan doesn't have the hang-ups that school taught
Cameron.

I'd ask him sometime not "in the moment" how he'd like me to help him handle
it. I'd tell him that I thought he sometimes seems uncomfortable in that
situation. Is there anything I could do to help? I could give some tips on
figuring out change or estimate what he might need to hand the cashier.

I blame school for Cameron's wavering and initial embarassment. Cameron's
"cashier skills" <g> have gotten REALLY good since he started working at the
deli. (Amazing how that happens----you know, how learning happens when you need
it! <G>)

>>>>>>Why wouldn't you just give him the answer?

** this is where I think my answer may be out of sync with unschooling.I
haven't thought about it alot which is probably why my first response is...
because how will he learn if I keep giving him the answer?<<<<<<

Uh oh! <g>

I have a better question for you: How will he learn if you DON'T keep giving
him answers! <G>

Duncan just asked me what 0 x 0 is.
I said zero.
Then what is 0 x 1?
Zero---anything times zero is zero.
0 x infinity?
Zero.
Oh. OK---and then he asked for a PB&J.
I told him to let me finish writing this to you! <g>

They DO learn by asking----and by your answers---even if your answer is "I
don't know." They're making connections ALL the time.

He'll figure it out with your help or without it---really, but it's so nice
to be a part of it! Don't close that door!

Try "MathOutLoud". When I'm figuring a tip at a restaurant, I do it OUTLOUD!
10% of 76 is 7.6, plus half of that is another oh----3.5 dollars. That's a
little over $11, but he was a good waiter: I'll make it $15---that's about 20%.

OR I have $16.72 in my wallet. If we go to McDonald's, The four of us could
each get a value meal if no one supersizes. OK

These are things I say in my head all the time. Saying them out loud shows
that I just don't come up with them like *magic*. It shows that I actually
THINK about these things and how I go about it. I've also been corrected by my
husband and each of my boys at different times when I'm wrong! <G>

I do it with language too----more for *their* benefit than my own, as my
English is MUCH better than my math! <G> But that's the way they've learned what
prepositions, gerunds, and predicate nominatives are too! <G>
EnglishOutLoud! <G>

In the kitchen: If I add just a touch of cinnamon....----BakingOutLoud! <G>
In the garden: GardeningOutLoud.

You get the picture! <G>


>>>I know how it sounds coming out but it is an honest reply. Clearly one I
need to change...because it will not help to create a learning environment.<<<

First big step----to see where you've been.

>>>>>I feel like I should know better but the truth is I keep seeing areas I
hadn't thought about that are affecting our relationships and it feels like.
.Ouch!!<<<<<

Second big step---to know where you want to go!

Keep walking! <G> You'll get there!

~Kelly






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Aug 4, 2004, at 9:06 AM, Sharon Thomas wrote:

> Who asked the question? Why?
>
>
>
> **most of the time it is a money problem he is faced with and can't
> come up
> with the answer as quickly as it is needed by the clerk.I have told
> him the
> answer quietly but I know he is embarassed.Maybe it is more my feeling
> bad
> for him and wanting to teach him so he won't feel that way.**

I need a more explicit answer than even this, Sharon, to understand. Do
you mean a clerk is telling him the price is $12.95 and he can't figure
out how much money to give her? So you have to whisper to him: "GIve
her a ten and a five? Or something like that?

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Aug 4, 2004, at 10:17 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

> <<<We have known 2 families that homeschooled in a relaxed way. When
> their
> kids hit their teenage/high school years they became very resentful of
> their
> parents not keeping them up to grade level.

This is because they "homeschooled" - so the parents were still
considered the "teachers" who decided what the kids should learn. So
the kids still thought of the parents are "responsible" for their
learning - or not learning.

Unschooling is different - and unschooled kids at some point will
understand that they are doing something very different. In the
unschooling families that I know well, the kids would never think to
blame their parents for not keeping them 'at grade level" because they
understand that "grade level" was never a part of unschooling. They can
learn what they want, when they want. They understand that far more
deeply than even those of us who chose to "unschool them" <G> in the
first place.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.