Transitioning
Robert Saxon
Hey out there, y'all!
As some of you know, I've got two daughters, ages 4 and 5 (16 months
apart). We've been following, as much as we ourselves have been able to,
unschooling for their education. I want to move more into RU. When I
really contemplate actually doing it, I get all excited, but also fearful.
My emotions say, "Radical Unschooling sounds like a GREAT idea! How do you
implement it? I don't want to go the wrong way and get hung out to dry"
You bet I'm unsure about it. My instinct is to start out slowly, say with
television, or bedtime. Just one or two for now. I've been thinking about
bedtime being the first.
Assuming you've gotten through all that, then, concerning bedtime -- do you
let them go to bed whenever they wish? Any caveats to that for your
family?
The later my girls stay up, the crankier they get. Or I should say the less
patience they each have. Whereas during the day, a minor crisis might be
easily resolved, at night it becomes a BIG DEAL. Evening is when Seana and
I get "stuff done" while they are asleep. But if they're awake, they it
painfully obvious that if we're going to maintain our own sanity, we need to
go to bed with them (note: we co-sleep). Not just from being less balanced
at night, but they also demand more time with us, too. We can't do
anything at night (NOTE: Seana is a night owl, I'm a morning person). They
have definitely made it clear that they want to stay up with us, and I'm
inclined to have all of us start going to bed earlier.
And if you don't wish to comment on the bed question, then please let me
know what you did to move into RU from more traditional practices.
Comments welcomed.
And please forgive my rambling above, I'm out of time. Thanks for reading.
--Rob Saxon
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5) and Elissa(4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As some of you know, I've got two daughters, ages 4 and 5 (16 months
apart). We've been following, as much as we ourselves have been able to,
unschooling for their education. I want to move more into RU. When I
really contemplate actually doing it, I get all excited, but also fearful.
My emotions say, "Radical Unschooling sounds like a GREAT idea! How do you
implement it? I don't want to go the wrong way and get hung out to dry"
You bet I'm unsure about it. My instinct is to start out slowly, say with
television, or bedtime. Just one or two for now. I've been thinking about
bedtime being the first.
Assuming you've gotten through all that, then, concerning bedtime -- do you
let them go to bed whenever they wish? Any caveats to that for your
family?
The later my girls stay up, the crankier they get. Or I should say the less
patience they each have. Whereas during the day, a minor crisis might be
easily resolved, at night it becomes a BIG DEAL. Evening is when Seana and
I get "stuff done" while they are asleep. But if they're awake, they it
painfully obvious that if we're going to maintain our own sanity, we need to
go to bed with them (note: we co-sleep). Not just from being less balanced
at night, but they also demand more time with us, too. We can't do
anything at night (NOTE: Seana is a night owl, I'm a morning person). They
have definitely made it clear that they want to stay up with us, and I'm
inclined to have all of us start going to bed earlier.
And if you don't wish to comment on the bed question, then please let me
know what you did to move into RU from more traditional practices.
Comments welcomed.
And please forgive my rambling above, I'm out of time. Thanks for reading.
--Rob Saxon
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5) and Elissa(4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
oum rayan
Hi Rob,
As for our family, we take each bedtime as it comes. Most nights we go to bed with our 4.8 yo son at around 11pm. He chose that time since babyhood, and it works for us because we are night owls. On an average night, we are all 3 doing things independent of one another, and having our son up and busy isn't a problem. However, some nights, I choose his bedtime. Sleepiness is often disguised as grumpiness or bouncing off the walls, and that's one of the cues I follow to know that he needs help finding rest.
And sometimes I just need a break, which I see as just as good a reason. In this case, I let him know that Mom needs quiet time, I ready him for bed, followed by story-time, a few "Mom, I need a drink of water"-type sitings, and he settles-in early.
I hope you and your family find what works for you. We really like our lives 'flying by the seat of our pants', but know that routines work well for a lot of people. Good luck and happy bedtimes!
Lisa O
With my kids, I pretty much say everything like it is. I don't have arbitrary rules, and I don't say 'because I told you so'. I think that's why my son reasons things out so well, because I reason with him, and even tell him when I've changed my mind about something, what I was thinking. I treat bedtime, TV time, mealtime, playtime, the same way. Don't get me wrong, I still have to do the 123-threat to get him to take action (as I just did to get him to brush his teeth before bed), but even that is more of an understanding than a discipline. On 3, I usually chase him and tickle him, or playfully swat him on the tush.
Robert Saxon <TheSaxons@...> wrote:
Hey out there, y'all!
As some of you know, I've got two daughters, ages 4 and 5 (16 months
apart). We've been following, as much as we ourselves have been able to,
unschooling for their education. I want to move more into RU. When I
really contemplate actually doing it, I get all excited, but also fearful.
My emotions say, "Radical Unschooling sounds like a GREAT idea! How do you
implement it? I don't want to go the wrong way and get hung out to dry"
You bet I'm unsure about it. My instinct is to start out slowly, say with
television, or bedtime. Just one or two for now. I've been thinking about
bedtime being the first.
Assuming you've gotten through all that, then, concerning bedtime -- do you
let them go to bed whenever they wish? Any caveats to that for your
family?
The later my girls stay up, the crankier they get. Or I should say the less
patience they each have. Whereas during the day, a minor crisis might be
easily resolved, at night it becomes a BIG DEAL. Evening is when Seana and
I get "stuff done" while they are asleep. But if they're awake, they it
painfully obvious that if we're going to maintain our own sanity, we need to
go to bed with them (note: we co-sleep). Not just from being less balanced
at night, but they also demand more time with us, too. We can't do
anything at night (NOTE: Seana is a night owl, I'm a morning person). They
have definitely made it clear that they want to stay up with us, and I'm
inclined to have all of us start going to bed earlier.
And if you don't wish to comment on the bed question, then please let me
know what you did to move into RU from more traditional practices.
Comments welcomed.
And please forgive my rambling above, I'm out of time. Thanks for reading.
--Rob Saxon
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5) and Elissa(4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As for our family, we take each bedtime as it comes. Most nights we go to bed with our 4.8 yo son at around 11pm. He chose that time since babyhood, and it works for us because we are night owls. On an average night, we are all 3 doing things independent of one another, and having our son up and busy isn't a problem. However, some nights, I choose his bedtime. Sleepiness is often disguised as grumpiness or bouncing off the walls, and that's one of the cues I follow to know that he needs help finding rest.
And sometimes I just need a break, which I see as just as good a reason. In this case, I let him know that Mom needs quiet time, I ready him for bed, followed by story-time, a few "Mom, I need a drink of water"-type sitings, and he settles-in early.
I hope you and your family find what works for you. We really like our lives 'flying by the seat of our pants', but know that routines work well for a lot of people. Good luck and happy bedtimes!
Lisa O
With my kids, I pretty much say everything like it is. I don't have arbitrary rules, and I don't say 'because I told you so'. I think that's why my son reasons things out so well, because I reason with him, and even tell him when I've changed my mind about something, what I was thinking. I treat bedtime, TV time, mealtime, playtime, the same way. Don't get me wrong, I still have to do the 123-threat to get him to take action (as I just did to get him to brush his teeth before bed), but even that is more of an understanding than a discipline. On 3, I usually chase him and tickle him, or playfully swat him on the tush.
Robert Saxon <TheSaxons@...> wrote:
Hey out there, y'all!
As some of you know, I've got two daughters, ages 4 and 5 (16 months
apart). We've been following, as much as we ourselves have been able to,
unschooling for their education. I want to move more into RU. When I
really contemplate actually doing it, I get all excited, but also fearful.
My emotions say, "Radical Unschooling sounds like a GREAT idea! How do you
implement it? I don't want to go the wrong way and get hung out to dry"
You bet I'm unsure about it. My instinct is to start out slowly, say with
television, or bedtime. Just one or two for now. I've been thinking about
bedtime being the first.
Assuming you've gotten through all that, then, concerning bedtime -- do you
let them go to bed whenever they wish? Any caveats to that for your
family?
The later my girls stay up, the crankier they get. Or I should say the less
patience they each have. Whereas during the day, a minor crisis might be
easily resolved, at night it becomes a BIG DEAL. Evening is when Seana and
I get "stuff done" while they are asleep. But if they're awake, they it
painfully obvious that if we're going to maintain our own sanity, we need to
go to bed with them (note: we co-sleep). Not just from being less balanced
at night, but they also demand more time with us, too. We can't do
anything at night (NOTE: Seana is a night owl, I'm a morning person). They
have definitely made it clear that they want to stay up with us, and I'm
inclined to have all of us start going to bed earlier.
And if you don't wish to comment on the bed question, then please let me
know what you did to move into RU from more traditional practices.
Comments welcomed.
And please forgive my rambling above, I'm out of time. Thanks for reading.
--Rob Saxon
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5) and Elissa(4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
saying "now its time for bed" - but we do communicate a lot about
what tiredness feels like and how each of us behave when we're
tired. Admittedly, there are times when that sounds like "Aaaaarrgh!
Mommy is getting cranky because she's tired and needs to go to bed!"
In the past when Mo wanted to stay up but my partner and I were both
tired, we'd set up one area of the house with water, maybe a snack,
and whatever toys she wanted, turn out lights elsewhere and sleep
with "half an eye open" as it were. Since Ray moved in things have
become more challenging, though, and there have been times when I've
laid on the couch and sort of dozed so I could run interferrence -
Ray's a night owl, but I totally don't expect him to "look after"
Mo. When my partner isn't wiped out from a day of sawing he doesn't
need nearly as much sleep as I do, so he's happy to stay up with Mo.
Past two nights they've gone and hung out by the mill so she could
play in the sawdust under the stars. Sweet.
rethinking how and when "stuff" gets done. Morgan's sleep cycle
periodically shifts by a couple hours all-of-a-sudden. That always
throws me for a loop for a week while I figure out how to rearrange
my own time and energy to get my own "stuff" done.
The last two weeks I've had a double whammy - Ray had gone to visit
with his mom and grandma and they made him go to bed "at a
reasonable hour" - so when he came home his sleep schedule was
totally different then when he left. *And* Mo made one of her
periodic shifts and is now up much later than before. So I've been
feeling like I have jet-lag or something.
So I suppose one caveat *I* would throw out is "*Expect* there to be
a less-than-ideal transitional period" while all y'all figure this
out together.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>> Assuming you've gotten through all that, then, concerningbedtime -- do you
> let them go to bed whenever they wish?With my 5yo, we've never had a bedtime in the sense of mom or dad
saying "now its time for bed" - but we do communicate a lot about
what tiredness feels like and how each of us behave when we're
tired. Admittedly, there are times when that sounds like "Aaaaarrgh!
Mommy is getting cranky because she's tired and needs to go to bed!"
In the past when Mo wanted to stay up but my partner and I were both
tired, we'd set up one area of the house with water, maybe a snack,
and whatever toys she wanted, turn out lights elsewhere and sleep
with "half an eye open" as it were. Since Ray moved in things have
become more challenging, though, and there have been times when I've
laid on the couch and sort of dozed so I could run interferrence -
Ray's a night owl, but I totally don't expect him to "look after"
Mo. When my partner isn't wiped out from a day of sawing he doesn't
need nearly as much sleep as I do, so he's happy to stay up with Mo.
Past two nights they've gone and hung out by the mill so she could
play in the sawdust under the stars. Sweet.
> Evening is when Seana andthey it
> I get "stuff done" while they are asleep. But if they're awake,
> painfully obvious that if we're going to maintain our own sanity,we need to
> go to bed with them (note: we co-sleep).Part of y'alls transition process will almost certainly involve
rethinking how and when "stuff" gets done. Morgan's sleep cycle
periodically shifts by a couple hours all-of-a-sudden. That always
throws me for a loop for a week while I figure out how to rearrange
my own time and energy to get my own "stuff" done.
The last two weeks I've had a double whammy - Ray had gone to visit
with his mom and grandma and they made him go to bed "at a
reasonable hour" - so when he came home his sleep schedule was
totally different then when he left. *And* Mo made one of her
periodic shifts and is now up much later than before. So I've been
feeling like I have jet-lag or something.
So I suppose one caveat *I* would throw out is "*Expect* there to be
a less-than-ideal transitional period" while all y'all figure this
out together.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Lisa
Just thought with all the discussions of bedtimes I would share a
funny story about my 5 yr old son and last night's fireworks. Every
year on the fourth we typically go to my parent's house on the
coast... this year I had one child at camp , one flying in on Monday
after a 12 day sailing trip in the keys who was exhausted etc. So we
decided to stay here in Raleigh and just hang out and rest. At the
coast each year my dad has someone come and do fireworks off the shore
for the kids and so forth, sparklers, the whole typical American 4th
of July thing (you know hot dogs, apple pie and blowing stuff up! )
Yesterday while dh and I were out shopping we picked up a variety
pack of fireworks (tame by grandfather's standard as he buys his in SC
not the "safe" ones they sell here in NC) We got home and it was
7:30pm and still bright and sunny outside so we explained to my son
who was SOOOO excited by the idea of getting to set off fireworks that
we needed to wait until dark to be able to see them better. We had
gotten these snake things that you light and they go from a pellet
into a long snake of ash (very weird looking but pretty cool!) so we
did some of those to entertain him while it was still light out. I
come back in to do a few things and eventually it's 9pm...he comes in
and announces that its dark out and we needed to do it now because it
was almost his bedtime. I laughed and said you don't HAVE a bedtime
... he laughed and said yes I do I decided it's pretty soon tonight
and you wouldn't want to disappoint me by letting me miss the
fireworks! Anyway I thought it was pretty clever of him to try to
influence the timing of things with that little line! Other people
are always asking him isn't it his bedtime (visiting friends whose
kids have a bedtime) so he thought it might be a viable line!
Lisa Blocker
funny story about my 5 yr old son and last night's fireworks. Every
year on the fourth we typically go to my parent's house on the
coast... this year I had one child at camp , one flying in on Monday
after a 12 day sailing trip in the keys who was exhausted etc. So we
decided to stay here in Raleigh and just hang out and rest. At the
coast each year my dad has someone come and do fireworks off the shore
for the kids and so forth, sparklers, the whole typical American 4th
of July thing (you know hot dogs, apple pie and blowing stuff up! )
Yesterday while dh and I were out shopping we picked up a variety
pack of fireworks (tame by grandfather's standard as he buys his in SC
not the "safe" ones they sell here in NC) We got home and it was
7:30pm and still bright and sunny outside so we explained to my son
who was SOOOO excited by the idea of getting to set off fireworks that
we needed to wait until dark to be able to see them better. We had
gotten these snake things that you light and they go from a pellet
into a long snake of ash (very weird looking but pretty cool!) so we
did some of those to entertain him while it was still light out. I
come back in to do a few things and eventually it's 9pm...he comes in
and announces that its dark out and we needed to do it now because it
was almost his bedtime. I laughed and said you don't HAVE a bedtime
... he laughed and said yes I do I decided it's pretty soon tonight
and you wouldn't want to disappoint me by letting me miss the
fireworks! Anyway I thought it was pretty clever of him to try to
influence the timing of things with that little line! Other people
are always asking him isn't it his bedtime (visiting friends whose
kids have a bedtime) so he thought it might be a viable line!
Lisa Blocker
sharon currie
Hi Rob,
We've only just started homeschooling in the past 6 months, and had progress very naturally into unschooling. As time goes by we find ourselves constantly re-examining my Asian cultural values, my husband western values and our parenting values. Some we let go, some we keep. But nevertheless, I find ourselves letting go quite alot, as we and son progress naturally into unschooling. But still, I can't see us 100% radical unschooling because I do still keep a few control over my son's life.
The ones we keep is exercising our parental rights to make him go to bed early, sometimes! If he's talking really, really loud and easily excited and bouncing of the walls at 9pm, and can't seems to hear the meaning of "Stop", then it means he's out of control because his brain is too tired and is short-curcuiting. Well, that's how we'll explain to him, justifying the reason of an early bedtime at 9ish pm. We co-sleep and bedtime presently seems to be getting later and later at 11.30ish which is fine with us. Hubby wakes at 6.30am and son wakes at 8.30ish. Where else I'm more inclined to sleep till 10am, but am tryin very hard to drag myself out of bed at 9ish.
I don't tell son what to do as he seems to have his own routine, other than the outings I organise for us. He's not too fuss about it but there are times I still say we should go because mummy wants to go, so he's got no choice. He wakes, goes downstairs to watch tv or play PS2, until I wakes and give him breakfast. Goes back to PS2, and will change out of pjs and brush his teeth on his own sometime after that. And goes back to PS2 or pc. These goes on untl it's time to go out if we have an outing for that day or lunch time of which he is reminded to stop. He is not allowed back onto the PS2 in the afternoon. So in the afternoon, he's normally on the internet for a short while, then we'll do something together like play a board game or crafts or watch tv together or go to the park nearby. Then it's time for me to prepare dinner of which son's back onto tv or pc educational games. Until dad's home, have dinner, watch news together, after which son plays with his toys or
lego or train tracks or just rummaging thru his multiple toy boxes in his room upstairs, making a mess.
Bathtime is around 8pm. Back to more playing after that until bedtime. In bed, we'll read some books together, mostly me(of which dad gets to watch tv) or dad(my night of Yippee!!) doing the reading, sometimes son will last 3 stories, sometimes he'll fall asleep halfway thru the first, of which the me or dad will fall asleep too. So I'll say the only time me and hubby get to really catch up is during dinner and weekend.
If he's being unreasonable with me or dad, my 123 timeout tactic comes into play. We're ok with son having a totally different opinion from ours, that he's entitled to not wanting to do what we parents want to do, of which, if possible, we'll say "ok, we won't go today, perhaps tomorrow?" If he decides he fancies somethings else for dinner, that's fine too. But it's not fine if our son is being totally un-compromising, rude, and snappy at us parents. We're his parents, not his peers!! Even that of his peers, I would be very cross if he's being nasty to them. Of which he'll be send off for a time out to think and reconsider his position within this family hierachy.
Not very radical, I supposed but it works fine for us.
SharonC
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We've only just started homeschooling in the past 6 months, and had progress very naturally into unschooling. As time goes by we find ourselves constantly re-examining my Asian cultural values, my husband western values and our parenting values. Some we let go, some we keep. But nevertheless, I find ourselves letting go quite alot, as we and son progress naturally into unschooling. But still, I can't see us 100% radical unschooling because I do still keep a few control over my son's life.
The ones we keep is exercising our parental rights to make him go to bed early, sometimes! If he's talking really, really loud and easily excited and bouncing of the walls at 9pm, and can't seems to hear the meaning of "Stop", then it means he's out of control because his brain is too tired and is short-curcuiting. Well, that's how we'll explain to him, justifying the reason of an early bedtime at 9ish pm. We co-sleep and bedtime presently seems to be getting later and later at 11.30ish which is fine with us. Hubby wakes at 6.30am and son wakes at 8.30ish. Where else I'm more inclined to sleep till 10am, but am tryin very hard to drag myself out of bed at 9ish.
I don't tell son what to do as he seems to have his own routine, other than the outings I organise for us. He's not too fuss about it but there are times I still say we should go because mummy wants to go, so he's got no choice. He wakes, goes downstairs to watch tv or play PS2, until I wakes and give him breakfast. Goes back to PS2, and will change out of pjs and brush his teeth on his own sometime after that. And goes back to PS2 or pc. These goes on untl it's time to go out if we have an outing for that day or lunch time of which he is reminded to stop. He is not allowed back onto the PS2 in the afternoon. So in the afternoon, he's normally on the internet for a short while, then we'll do something together like play a board game or crafts or watch tv together or go to the park nearby. Then it's time for me to prepare dinner of which son's back onto tv or pc educational games. Until dad's home, have dinner, watch news together, after which son plays with his toys or
lego or train tracks or just rummaging thru his multiple toy boxes in his room upstairs, making a mess.
Bathtime is around 8pm. Back to more playing after that until bedtime. In bed, we'll read some books together, mostly me(of which dad gets to watch tv) or dad(my night of Yippee!!) doing the reading, sometimes son will last 3 stories, sometimes he'll fall asleep halfway thru the first, of which the me or dad will fall asleep too. So I'll say the only time me and hubby get to really catch up is during dinner and weekend.
If he's being unreasonable with me or dad, my 123 timeout tactic comes into play. We're ok with son having a totally different opinion from ours, that he's entitled to not wanting to do what we parents want to do, of which, if possible, we'll say "ok, we won't go today, perhaps tomorrow?" If he decides he fancies somethings else for dinner, that's fine too. But it's not fine if our son is being totally un-compromising, rude, and snappy at us parents. We're his parents, not his peers!! Even that of his peers, I would be very cross if he's being nasty to them. Of which he'll be send off for a time out to think and reconsider his position within this family hierachy.
Not very radical, I supposed but it works fine for us.
SharonC
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
Hey there, y'all! Thanks for responding to my post! It's been very helpful
to get other people's ways of doing things, and I really appreciate your
responding. I'm still mulling over answers to my queries, don't know if
I'll have any follow-ups or not. I got a few free minutes at work to read
and post a quick message.
Thanks!
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years!
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5+) and Elissa (4+)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to get other people's ways of doing things, and I really appreciate your
responding. I'm still mulling over answers to my queries, don't know if
I'll have any follow-ups or not. I got a few free minutes at work to read
and post a quick message.
Thanks!
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years!
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5+) and Elissa (4+)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:37 PM, sharon currie wrote:
But there's a difference between a list where people discuss what
works for them and a list where people discuss ways to work towards
radical unschooling.
I assume a lot of people on radical unschooling lists take what they
find useful and leave the rest. But this list doesn't exist to
*support* picking and choosing. In other words, what people use the
information for is up to them. But the support they can expect here
is in helping them figure out how to make radical unschooling work.
It's just a matter of providing what the owners want and not wasting
people's time with information they haven't signed onto the list for.
There are lots of places to find "what works for our family." There
aren't so many places to find how to move closer to fully trusting
and respecting children.
everyone get what they need and want, the more positive the
relationship with your son grows.
You have every right to decide it's too much trouble. It *is* easier
for parents to just make a child do what the parents want. If it
weren't, there would be less of a need for this list! ;-)
But easiest and most convenient aren't the only choice. And they do
come at a price: each time you do it, it whittles away at your
relationship.
You might have a much better relationship with your son than your
neighbor or your parents or your husband's parents or your best
friend. But it could be even better.
What it comes down to is choice: is what you gain worth what you give
up? Is the work to figure out how to help everyone get what they want
worth the gain in relationship? Is the convenience of imposing the
parents' wishes on the child worth the decrease in the relationship?
It's a question only you can answer for your own life. But the list
is for discussing ways to, basically make our lives more difficult
(initially) in order to gain a better relationship with our kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Not very radical, I supposed but it works fine for us.Lots of families have a style that works for them.
But there's a difference between a list where people discuss what
works for them and a list where people discuss ways to work towards
radical unschooling.
I assume a lot of people on radical unschooling lists take what they
find useful and leave the rest. But this list doesn't exist to
*support* picking and choosing. In other words, what people use the
information for is up to them. But the support they can expect here
is in helping them figure out how to make radical unschooling work.
It's just a matter of providing what the owners want and not wasting
people's time with information they haven't signed onto the list for.
There are lots of places to find "what works for our family." There
aren't so many places to find how to move closer to fully trusting
and respecting children.
> The ones we keep is exercising our parental rights to make him goEvery time you let go of a control and find a better way to help
> to bed early
everyone get what they need and want, the more positive the
relationship with your son grows.
You have every right to decide it's too much trouble. It *is* easier
for parents to just make a child do what the parents want. If it
weren't, there would be less of a need for this list! ;-)
But easiest and most convenient aren't the only choice. And they do
come at a price: each time you do it, it whittles away at your
relationship.
You might have a much better relationship with your son than your
neighbor or your parents or your husband's parents or your best
friend. But it could be even better.
What it comes down to is choice: is what you gain worth what you give
up? Is the work to figure out how to help everyone get what they want
worth the gain in relationship? Is the convenience of imposing the
parents' wishes on the child worth the decrease in the relationship?
It's a question only you can answer for your own life. But the list
is for discussing ways to, basically make our lives more difficult
(initially) in order to gain a better relationship with our kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mauratracy
Hi Joyce. I've lurked here off and on for a while, and haven't posted, but your reply here
prompts me to ask a genuine question. I totally understand everything you said, and
honestly, for the first time I totally get why this list can seem to me to be harsh at times. I
appreciate your well put explanation of the purpose or mission of this list. But, in order to
avoid any possible future faux pas, I have a question: was it inappropriate for Sharon to
reply as she did given that the original posters questions specifically seemed to ask how
have others implemented RU, and to what extent they have? The OP even asked if people
RU in all areas, or start with some, etc.. So, are you suggesting or saying here that unless
one can claim to be totally RUing that one should not reply, but rather leave the replying
to those who have fully embraced and arrived at "successful" RU? Even though I've lurked
some, I haven't paid total attention to the "etiquette" of the list. Is this more of an "Ask the
Experts" forum, or can others of us share where we're at in our journeys?
Thank you,
Maura
prompts me to ask a genuine question. I totally understand everything you said, and
honestly, for the first time I totally get why this list can seem to me to be harsh at times. I
appreciate your well put explanation of the purpose or mission of this list. But, in order to
avoid any possible future faux pas, I have a question: was it inappropriate for Sharon to
reply as she did given that the original posters questions specifically seemed to ask how
have others implemented RU, and to what extent they have? The OP even asked if people
RU in all areas, or start with some, etc.. So, are you suggesting or saying here that unless
one can claim to be totally RUing that one should not reply, but rather leave the replying
to those who have fully embraced and arrived at "successful" RU? Even though I've lurked
some, I haven't paid total attention to the "etiquette" of the list. Is this more of an "Ask the
Experts" forum, or can others of us share where we're at in our journeys?
Thank you,
Maura
--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:37 PM, sharon currie wrote:
>
> > Not very radical, I supposed but it works fine for us.
>
> Lots of families have a style that works for them.
>
> But there's a difference between a list where people discuss what
> works for them and a list where people discuss ways to work towards
> radical unschooling.
>
> I assume a lot of people on radical unschooling lists take what they
> find useful and leave the rest. But this list doesn't exist to
> *support* picking and choosing. In other words, what people use the
> information for is up to them. But the support they can expect here
> is in helping them figure out how to make radical unschooling work.
>
Emilie
Hello,
I have been lurking on this list long enough to know that my story
will just sound like whining to most of you :-). But I am honestly
looking for advice. I am at a loss about how to proceed in further
transitioning from unschooling to much more radical unschooling. I
love the stories I read here about supporting kids through all their
experimentation with mess, sleep and all their chosen projects, etc.
I am a full on attachment mama to a 6 year old dd, a 3 year old dd
and a 15 month old dd. Everybody nurses and cosleeps and there is a
lot of night waking. 6 year old dd wets most nights so bedding and
pjs get changed. 3 year dd wakes to nurse a couple of times and now
also to use potty. 15 month dd nurses pretty much continually all
night. Dh works around the clock seven days a week for the last six
months to earn our way with me staying home. We have no other family
support as they live far away and/or deeply disapprove of our
parenting methods. We live in the city and only know families with
only children who are quite alternative but still quite 'schooly'.
None of them feel up to watching my bunch for even an hour to give me
a break. Without sleep all my good intentions go out the window and I
start imposing limits, it tends to be when I am at my limit. We live
in a small three bedroom apartment (we only use two of the bedrooms
as dh has all his mechanical/electronic/tools/etc. stuff for his f/x
robot building, camera motion business stored in bedroom #3) near
busy streets with no yard. Money is very tight.
I love life with my girls as it is but I want to give them more.
15 month old dd is into everything, as to be expected. She tries to
drink out of the toilet before 3 year old dd has had a chance to
flush. She loves to feed herself everything spread everywhere and
hates to be cleaned after, but gets eczema all over her face if I
don't clean her. She wants to climb everything. We have concrete
floors. It's a long way down from the kitchen counter. If I don't
clean up all the food she messes around with she'll eat it the next
day or week. How much of what she wants to do should I let her?
3 year old dd loves to run wild and free. Near busy traffic or not.
She has little fear if any of danger to her person. She argues with 6
year old dd a lot. They also play together fabulously much of the
time. Should I drop everything to help them through their arguments.
Should I trust them to work it out? How much freedom of movement can
safely you give an exuberant three year old while also attending to
two other children near busy traffic?
6 year old dd has 20 new projects thought up before breakfast. I love
this, but how do i find time to help her work on them all. What do I
do when her sisters keep breaking her creations? What do I do when
she hits her sisters? How do I guide them all through their joys and
sorrows and be attentive enough to each child's needs? My girls have
a wonderful loving relationship full of empathy and fun. I am not
trying to paint them as having dysfunctional behaviour issues. They
are very respectful and loving to one another. But they are all young
and in close quarters. Working it out 90% of the time still means
they have trouble 10% of the time.
How do others with loads of tiny children manage RU? I want to make
my life more difficult in order to gain a better relationship with my
kids, but I start losing it at some undetermined point of difficulty.
How do I give them this? I have given them the gift of each other,
which they love and cherish. How do I give them RU too? I know there
is a way. I just need a little more direction.
Thanks,
Emilie
At 07:35 PM 05/07/2007, you wrote:
I have been lurking on this list long enough to know that my story
will just sound like whining to most of you :-). But I am honestly
looking for advice. I am at a loss about how to proceed in further
transitioning from unschooling to much more radical unschooling. I
love the stories I read here about supporting kids through all their
experimentation with mess, sleep and all their chosen projects, etc.
I am a full on attachment mama to a 6 year old dd, a 3 year old dd
and a 15 month old dd. Everybody nurses and cosleeps and there is a
lot of night waking. 6 year old dd wets most nights so bedding and
pjs get changed. 3 year dd wakes to nurse a couple of times and now
also to use potty. 15 month dd nurses pretty much continually all
night. Dh works around the clock seven days a week for the last six
months to earn our way with me staying home. We have no other family
support as they live far away and/or deeply disapprove of our
parenting methods. We live in the city and only know families with
only children who are quite alternative but still quite 'schooly'.
None of them feel up to watching my bunch for even an hour to give me
a break. Without sleep all my good intentions go out the window and I
start imposing limits, it tends to be when I am at my limit. We live
in a small three bedroom apartment (we only use two of the bedrooms
as dh has all his mechanical/electronic/tools/etc. stuff for his f/x
robot building, camera motion business stored in bedroom #3) near
busy streets with no yard. Money is very tight.
I love life with my girls as it is but I want to give them more.
15 month old dd is into everything, as to be expected. She tries to
drink out of the toilet before 3 year old dd has had a chance to
flush. She loves to feed herself everything spread everywhere and
hates to be cleaned after, but gets eczema all over her face if I
don't clean her. She wants to climb everything. We have concrete
floors. It's a long way down from the kitchen counter. If I don't
clean up all the food she messes around with she'll eat it the next
day or week. How much of what she wants to do should I let her?
3 year old dd loves to run wild and free. Near busy traffic or not.
She has little fear if any of danger to her person. She argues with 6
year old dd a lot. They also play together fabulously much of the
time. Should I drop everything to help them through their arguments.
Should I trust them to work it out? How much freedom of movement can
safely you give an exuberant three year old while also attending to
two other children near busy traffic?
6 year old dd has 20 new projects thought up before breakfast. I love
this, but how do i find time to help her work on them all. What do I
do when her sisters keep breaking her creations? What do I do when
she hits her sisters? How do I guide them all through their joys and
sorrows and be attentive enough to each child's needs? My girls have
a wonderful loving relationship full of empathy and fun. I am not
trying to paint them as having dysfunctional behaviour issues. They
are very respectful and loving to one another. But they are all young
and in close quarters. Working it out 90% of the time still means
they have trouble 10% of the time.
How do others with loads of tiny children manage RU? I want to make
my life more difficult in order to gain a better relationship with my
kids, but I start losing it at some undetermined point of difficulty.
How do I give them this? I have given them the gift of each other,
which they love and cherish. How do I give them RU too? I know there
is a way. I just need a little more direction.
Thanks,
Emilie
At 07:35 PM 05/07/2007, you wrote:
>snip...[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>It's a question only you can answer for your own life. But the list
>is for discussing ways to, basically make our lives more difficult
>(initially) in order to gain a better relationship with our kids.
>
>Joyce
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], sharon currie
<lyeping2607@...> wrote:
from *his* perspective "totally uncompromising"? That's an important
question. Especially since you are punishing him when he does this,
how long before he decides *he's* going to punish *you*? He can't
put you in time-out, but if he's clever, he'll definately find ways
to push your buttons and feel justified doing so. That's how
punishment works.
easily excited and bouncing of the walls at 9pm, and can't seems to
hear the meaning of "Stop", then it means he's out of control
because his brain is too tired and is short-curcuiting.
****************
How often does this sort of thing happen? Is there a pattern? Maybe
you can start engaging with him earlier to help him find ways to
calm himself - offer to play a quiet game or read or watch tv of his
choice with him, perhaps.
Alternately, some kids have a kind of "energy spike" right before
they go to sleep - they don't so much need to calm down as
to "discharge". My dd is like this, so we talk about how she tends
to have a Lot of energy at the same time mom and dad have very
little. Being aware and talking about it from that perspective helps
us adults be more supportive of her needs - and it helps *her*
understand that we aren't withdrawing from her out of disapproval or
some-such, we're Tired.
From time to time Mo goes through a phase of being more independent
in her nightly bouncing-off-the-walls, and we'll actually forget, to
some extent, just how intense this can be. Then, when she's not
quite so independent, it seems all the more intense and frustrating
until one of us remembers "Ohhhhh, its That Time again...". Just
that acknowledgement is helpful in reducing our stress levels. Its
not that our kid is freaking out, its just "That Time again".
to answer here, but I know I found it helpful to think about that
really really carefully. What expectations do you have and what does
that mean in terms of how you interact with your child?
RU is about partnership with children and building mutual
relationships. It can't really work within a hierarchy. That's not
to say that RU doesn't make use of the greater experience and
broader viewpoints that adulthood (hopefully) gives us, but it
doesn't assume that every adult viewpoint is automatically broader
or that every adult experience is applicable to other individuals.
Many times adults' responses to children are totally reactionary and
short-sighted - and yet *we* can get away with it bc we're bigger,
stronger and have the car-keys.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<lyeping2607@...> wrote:
> But it's not fine if our son is being totally un-compromisingThis is something you might want to explore - how often are you,
from *his* perspective "totally uncompromising"? That's an important
question. Especially since you are punishing him when he does this,
how long before he decides *he's* going to punish *you*? He can't
put you in time-out, but if he's clever, he'll definately find ways
to push your buttons and feel justified doing so. That's how
punishment works.
> The ones we keep is exercising our parental rights to make himgo to bed early, sometimes! If he's talking really, really loud and
easily excited and bouncing of the walls at 9pm, and can't seems to
hear the meaning of "Stop", then it means he's out of control
because his brain is too tired and is short-curcuiting.
****************
How often does this sort of thing happen? Is there a pattern? Maybe
you can start engaging with him earlier to help him find ways to
calm himself - offer to play a quiet game or read or watch tv of his
choice with him, perhaps.
Alternately, some kids have a kind of "energy spike" right before
they go to sleep - they don't so much need to calm down as
to "discharge". My dd is like this, so we talk about how she tends
to have a Lot of energy at the same time mom and dad have very
little. Being aware and talking about it from that perspective helps
us adults be more supportive of her needs - and it helps *her*
understand that we aren't withdrawing from her out of disapproval or
some-such, we're Tired.
From time to time Mo goes through a phase of being more independent
in her nightly bouncing-off-the-walls, and we'll actually forget, to
some extent, just how intense this can be. Then, when she's not
quite so independent, it seems all the more intense and frustrating
until one of us remembers "Ohhhhh, its That Time again...". Just
that acknowledgement is helpful in reducing our stress levels. Its
not that our kid is freaking out, its just "That Time again".
>We're his parents, not his peers!!What does that mean to you, being someone's parent? You don't have
to answer here, but I know I found it helpful to think about that
really really carefully. What expectations do you have and what does
that mean in terms of how you interact with your child?
RU is about partnership with children and building mutual
relationships. It can't really work within a hierarchy. That's not
to say that RU doesn't make use of the greater experience and
broader viewpoints that adulthood (hopefully) gives us, but it
doesn't assume that every adult viewpoint is automatically broader
or that every adult experience is applicable to other individuals.
Many times adults' responses to children are totally reactionary and
short-sighted - and yet *we* can get away with it bc we're bigger,
stronger and have the car-keys.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Robert Saxon
Some thoughts after re-reading the previous posts.
I like the idea of a designated place for them to be if they're going to
stay up. BUT -- we have too much stuff laying out that we don't want them
to have access to. This increases stress, and sets us up for a lot of
serious negotiations in order to get it back (or a lot of "Nos" and
arbitrariness -- ick!). SOOOOOO, if we were to be comfortable with leaving
either or both awake while we went to sleep, we would need to clear some of
that stuff out. It's difficult to change my thinking from "Why can't they
just go to bed?" to "How could we make it so that we're OK with them being
up later than me?"
We have been implementing playfulness a lot more for connecting rather than
force and arbitrariness to "rectify a situation."
We've found that when they "act up," they are in need of re-connecting with
us. Sometimes being playful is required, sometimes reflecting, sometimes
just being near, depending upon the situation. These tend to work whereas
before we would be "enforcing" or doling out "justice."
I guess I'm rambling here now, so I'll just sign off. Any more ideas,
anyone?
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5) and Elissa (4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I like the idea of a designated place for them to be if they're going to
stay up. BUT -- we have too much stuff laying out that we don't want them
to have access to. This increases stress, and sets us up for a lot of
serious negotiations in order to get it back (or a lot of "Nos" and
arbitrariness -- ick!). SOOOOOO, if we were to be comfortable with leaving
either or both awake while we went to sleep, we would need to clear some of
that stuff out. It's difficult to change my thinking from "Why can't they
just go to bed?" to "How could we make it so that we're OK with them being
up later than me?"
We have been implementing playfulness a lot more for connecting rather than
force and arbitrariness to "rectify a situation."
We've found that when they "act up," they are in need of re-connecting with
us. Sometimes being playful is required, sometimes reflecting, sometimes
just being near, depending upon the situation. These tend to work whereas
before we would be "enforcing" or doling out "justice."
I guess I'm rambling here now, so I'll just sign off. Any more ideas,
anyone?
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5) and Elissa (4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
On Jul 6, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Robert Saxon wrote:
basically to get my own thoughts straight ;-)
You can start reading here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
and that might help answer your questions.
Much of the transition is, as you mention, shifting your view point.
Instead of seeing the world through your own needs and the children
as hindrances, you start seeing how the world looks through the eyes
of your children. Most of what I've written at the above site is
about shifting view points.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Sounds like you've been able to get there, and I'm VERY curiousIt took *a lot* of writing, answering other people's questions
> what you did, and how you did it, etc. Was it THAT simple?
basically to get my own thoughts straight ;-)
You can start reading here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
and that might help answer your questions.
Much of the transition is, as you mention, shifting your view point.
Instead of seeing the world through your own needs and the children
as hindrances, you start seeing how the world looks through the eyes
of your children. Most of what I've written at the above site is
about shifting view points.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kathleen Gehrke
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
age from 17 to 6. I am really, really tired at night and need a good
nights sleep. I wake up here around 5:30. What we came up with that
works is no bedtime, but a quiet time. At eleven o clock everyone
has to go to there own area, mainly room. I have said they can stay
up all night, but they need to do quiet activities. They can draw,
read, watch tv, play video games whatever, but they need to let me
and dh sleep.
When we first started it, several years ago, we had kids up LATE.
Now my kids really take care of themselves. They go to bed when they
are tired and ask to be tucked in. My youngest is generally around
nine thirty. The kids who want to stay up late are really respectful
of my needing to sleep and will talk and visit each other quietly if
they want to share info on a game or some show.
I watched my brothers kids on a recent vacation. They have a very
strict bedtime and fought it all the way, no matter how tired they
were. It made me realize how what we are doing really does work.
Good luck,
Kathleen
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>Any more ideas,
> anyone?Hi I have a bit of input. I have seven kids still home ranging in
age from 17 to 6. I am really, really tired at night and need a good
nights sleep. I wake up here around 5:30. What we came up with that
works is no bedtime, but a quiet time. At eleven o clock everyone
has to go to there own area, mainly room. I have said they can stay
up all night, but they need to do quiet activities. They can draw,
read, watch tv, play video games whatever, but they need to let me
and dh sleep.
When we first started it, several years ago, we had kids up LATE.
Now my kids really take care of themselves. They go to bed when they
are tired and ask to be tucked in. My youngest is generally around
nine thirty. The kids who want to stay up late are really respectful
of my needing to sleep and will talk and visit each other quietly if
they want to share info on a game or some show.
I watched my brothers kids on a recent vacation. They have a very
strict bedtime and fought it all the way, no matter how tired they
were. It made me realize how what we are doing really does work.
Good luck,
Kathleen
Fetteroll
On Jul 6, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Kathleen Gehrke wrote:
I think it helps lots in shifting perspective to move away from
trying to get the kids to give what the parents want and working with
the kids in finding ways to get everyone's needs met.
There's a huge world of difference between me telling my daughter "I
need an hour to do some stuff today so you'll need to find something
to do then," and "I need an hour to do some stuff today. How can we
work that into the schedule?"
Make the kids part of the solution rather than making them part of
the problem.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What we came up with thatYes.
> works is no bedtime, but a quiet time. At eleven o clock everyone
> has to go to there own area, mainly room.
I think it helps lots in shifting perspective to move away from
trying to get the kids to give what the parents want and working with
the kids in finding ways to get everyone's needs met.
There's a huge world of difference between me telling my daughter "I
need an hour to do some stuff today so you'll need to find something
to do then," and "I need an hour to do some stuff today. How can we
work that into the schedule?"
Make the kids part of the solution rather than making them part of
the problem.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
At one time, Arun posted (or blogged it) that whatever it is, it must work
for everyone.
My take: Ensure that everyone's needs are met. The needs of the many do
not outweigh the needs of the few. It IS possible to do this. Just don't
give up when you've got MOST people on your side. It's too tempting to just
disregard the other person's feelings b/c you've got size (or sheer numbers
of people) on your side, and THEN, make THEM feel guilty for disregarding
the feelings of everyone else ("you can't just hold up the whole group!").
In practice, I'm slowly getting here. Anyone else further along on this?
Any caveats you would put here?
--Rob Saxon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for everyone.
My take: Ensure that everyone's needs are met. The needs of the many do
not outweigh the needs of the few. It IS possible to do this. Just don't
give up when you've got MOST people on your side. It's too tempting to just
disregard the other person's feelings b/c you've got size (or sheer numbers
of people) on your side, and THEN, make THEM feel guilty for disregarding
the feelings of everyone else ("you can't just hold up the whole group!").
In practice, I'm slowly getting here. Anyone else further along on this?
Any caveats you would put here?
--Rob Saxon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~It IS possible to do this. Just don't
give up when you've got MOST people on your side. ~~
Phew...that's a tough one sometimes. I can think of instances when
Jalen wanted something that seemed fairly unreasonable to the rest of
us and everyone else agreed on a certain course of action. We keep
talking sometimes. Sometimes we just explain that everyone else is
hot/tired/hungry etc...(whatever it is) and would REALLY like to go
get lunch/drinks/go home (fill in the blank again) so we need to think
about how to make sure nobody is feeling like their needs are ignored.
It's a challenge. There is no perfection, especially with a large
family where needs seem to collide at times. Just the fact that
someone cares, that someone is listening and offering to change things
up is sometimes enough. You know, when *I'm*
hot/tired/thirsty/hungry/whatever, I really don't feel like
negotiating for an hour to find a solution. Sometimes it's like
"here's what's happening, let's just figure this OUT".
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
give up when you've got MOST people on your side. ~~
Phew...that's a tough one sometimes. I can think of instances when
Jalen wanted something that seemed fairly unreasonable to the rest of
us and everyone else agreed on a certain course of action. We keep
talking sometimes. Sometimes we just explain that everyone else is
hot/tired/hungry etc...(whatever it is) and would REALLY like to go
get lunch/drinks/go home (fill in the blank again) so we need to think
about how to make sure nobody is feeling like their needs are ignored.
It's a challenge. There is no perfection, especially with a large
family where needs seem to collide at times. Just the fact that
someone cares, that someone is listening and offering to change things
up is sometimes enough. You know, when *I'm*
hot/tired/thirsty/hungry/whatever, I really don't feel like
negotiating for an hour to find a solution. Sometimes it's like
"here's what's happening, let's just figure this OUT".
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~So, are you suggesting or saying here that unless one can claim to
be totally RUing that one should not reply, but rather leave
the replying to those who have fully embraced and arrived at
"successful" RU?~~
Not at all. I think a useful discussion is a back and forth of
information which includes a lot of questions and sharing from both
experienced unschoolers and those seeking to learn more. There is
definitely an open invitation to everyone here to post. Just be
prepared for some pretty direct information if what's posted is in
opposition to mindful parenting and unschooling. If you're comfortable
with questioning and direct language, then it will never be a problem.:)
~~Even though I've lurked some, I haven't paid total attention to the
"etiquette" of the list. Is this more of an "Ask the
Experts" forum, or can others of us share where we're at in our
journeys?~~
Please feel free to share your journey with us!! That's a great use of
the list. I think when we stumble or have difficulties it can be just
as useful a learning moment as a fabulous interaction....sometimes
more.:) When folks get grumpy about this list, it's usually because
they posted about something to another person and weren't prepared for
the direct and blunt questioning of the information.
That doesn't mean everyone isn't welcome to post whatever they wish.
Just be prepared for a horde of gentle parents to come to the defense
of the child if it's not respectful!!:)
I think it's hard to be questioned by a bunch of strangers. I
certainly didn't like it when I was new to the lists. Especially since
I'd been eclectic/relaxed (ie; the most radical of any homeschooler
I'd ever met) and they were saying I needed to be MORE radical? Sheesh.
I mean, trust my kids to regulate their own television??? Yikes. I
thought they were nuts. Sure, I could trust they'd learn anything at
any time, we'd been non-curriculum crazies from the beginning. Heck,
I'd been homeschooling as the lone Mum that didn't worry about
curriculum or workbooks or tests since 1996! I knew of no one that was
as relaxed as us.
Enter unschooling.com and a bunch of folks that thought kids COULD
learn to learn about anything and everything, even television.
Soooo....it's hard to be questioned. But we either decide the
information is valid or not and we incorporate it or ignore it.
Problem for me? The information and questioning wouldn't leave me
alone. It nagged inside my head (truth doesn't just go away) and left
me questioning more until I really GOT IT. If it wasn't true...then I
could have discarded it readily.
So here I am, willing to share with you why and how kids CAN be
trusted to learn anything and everything they need...from food and
chores and television to frogs and dye and clouds.:)
Feel free to share whatever you wish. Welcome to the discussion!
OH, and I'm still wondering where the "experts" are.:) Haven't found
one yet and if someone were to decide they were an expert I might just
question their purpose here. We're a bunch of parents that have
figured some things out, through our own trial and error and learning
and just want to share with others so they can shortcut some of the
pain/struggle that comes with coercion.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
be totally RUing that one should not reply, but rather leave
the replying to those who have fully embraced and arrived at
"successful" RU?~~
Not at all. I think a useful discussion is a back and forth of
information which includes a lot of questions and sharing from both
experienced unschoolers and those seeking to learn more. There is
definitely an open invitation to everyone here to post. Just be
prepared for some pretty direct information if what's posted is in
opposition to mindful parenting and unschooling. If you're comfortable
with questioning and direct language, then it will never be a problem.:)
~~Even though I've lurked some, I haven't paid total attention to the
"etiquette" of the list. Is this more of an "Ask the
Experts" forum, or can others of us share where we're at in our
journeys?~~
Please feel free to share your journey with us!! That's a great use of
the list. I think when we stumble or have difficulties it can be just
as useful a learning moment as a fabulous interaction....sometimes
more.:) When folks get grumpy about this list, it's usually because
they posted about something to another person and weren't prepared for
the direct and blunt questioning of the information.
That doesn't mean everyone isn't welcome to post whatever they wish.
Just be prepared for a horde of gentle parents to come to the defense
of the child if it's not respectful!!:)
I think it's hard to be questioned by a bunch of strangers. I
certainly didn't like it when I was new to the lists. Especially since
I'd been eclectic/relaxed (ie; the most radical of any homeschooler
I'd ever met) and they were saying I needed to be MORE radical? Sheesh.
I mean, trust my kids to regulate their own television??? Yikes. I
thought they were nuts. Sure, I could trust they'd learn anything at
any time, we'd been non-curriculum crazies from the beginning. Heck,
I'd been homeschooling as the lone Mum that didn't worry about
curriculum or workbooks or tests since 1996! I knew of no one that was
as relaxed as us.
Enter unschooling.com and a bunch of folks that thought kids COULD
learn to learn about anything and everything, even television.
Soooo....it's hard to be questioned. But we either decide the
information is valid or not and we incorporate it or ignore it.
Problem for me? The information and questioning wouldn't leave me
alone. It nagged inside my head (truth doesn't just go away) and left
me questioning more until I really GOT IT. If it wasn't true...then I
could have discarded it readily.
So here I am, willing to share with you why and how kids CAN be
trusted to learn anything and everything they need...from food and
chores and television to frogs and dye and clouds.:)
Feel free to share whatever you wish. Welcome to the discussion!
OH, and I'm still wondering where the "experts" are.:) Haven't found
one yet and if someone were to decide they were an expert I might just
question their purpose here. We're a bunch of parents that have
figured some things out, through our own trial and error and learning
and just want to share with others so they can shortcut some of the
pain/struggle that comes with coercion.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~> How do others with loads of tiny children manage RU? ~~
You know, I have SO much to say about this topic but very little time
at the moment. I'll try to get back to this later today if possible. A
few thoughts:
You do your best and it's enough. Being there with them, cuddling,
loving and helping them....that's unschooling.
What it sounds like to me, is you don't have any support which can be
hugely difficult with young children. I would look into finding some
AP parents to visit at the park occasionally. I would try to find some
unschoolers to hang out with. Support is really important in this
journey for our family.
Another thought...are you setting things up to be the least difficult?
You said a 6y.o. is bed wetting. Why don't you have pull-ups for this
child? Or some form of protection so they don't have to wake up wet
and uncomfortable? You can always sleep through bed-wetting if you're
being proactive. I've had two children that couldn't stay dry through
the night for a very long time and pull-ups saved our sanity I
think!:) For both parent and child. It's not fun waking up wet.
On the topic of being proactive...it's really hard to sometimes, but
you need to fill up your cup BEFORE you're down to the last bit of
energy/patience/joy.
Three young children is NOT an easy path at times. I have almost four
years between my children so I don't know exactly what it's
like....though I grew up with five siblings and babysat most of my
life even nannying as an adult while my own children came with me, so
I have an idea!
Anyhoo.....plan ahead. Some good waterplay, playdough, bath fun,
walks, bubbles and other fun things can get kids distracted in a rough
moment so you have time to recover your calm. I used to keep a sack of
Dollar Tree toys hidden way for rough moments. Anything new was enough
to interest my children and buy me a bit of time to re-connect.
Hang in there!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
You know, I have SO much to say about this topic but very little time
at the moment. I'll try to get back to this later today if possible. A
few thoughts:
You do your best and it's enough. Being there with them, cuddling,
loving and helping them....that's unschooling.
What it sounds like to me, is you don't have any support which can be
hugely difficult with young children. I would look into finding some
AP parents to visit at the park occasionally. I would try to find some
unschoolers to hang out with. Support is really important in this
journey for our family.
Another thought...are you setting things up to be the least difficult?
You said a 6y.o. is bed wetting. Why don't you have pull-ups for this
child? Or some form of protection so they don't have to wake up wet
and uncomfortable? You can always sleep through bed-wetting if you're
being proactive. I've had two children that couldn't stay dry through
the night for a very long time and pull-ups saved our sanity I
think!:) For both parent and child. It's not fun waking up wet.
On the topic of being proactive...it's really hard to sometimes, but
you need to fill up your cup BEFORE you're down to the last bit of
energy/patience/joy.
Three young children is NOT an easy path at times. I have almost four
years between my children so I don't know exactly what it's
like....though I grew up with five siblings and babysat most of my
life even nannying as an adult while my own children came with me, so
I have an idea!
Anyhoo.....plan ahead. Some good waterplay, playdough, bath fun,
walks, bubbles and other fun things can get kids distracted in a rough
moment so you have time to recover your calm. I used to keep a sack of
Dollar Tree toys hidden way for rough moments. Anything new was enough
to interest my children and buy me a bit of time to re-connect.
Hang in there!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Chris
There are several things I'd like to add re: this thread of posts.
First to Rob to tell you that you aren't the only family seeking to
understand all of this. When I first encountered RU ideas, I thought
it was really crazy. But, as someone said earlier, truth has a way
of grabbing hold. Even though I felt skeptical, I felt a magnetic
attraction to learning more about this. I couldn't sleep at night
for entertaining these new ideas--and for staying up late reading
everything in sight, both online and in print. I do feel like I've
had some major ah-ha's and there are times when I still don't "get"
what it would look like or how to do it in certain situations.
Second, thanks to all who have written on this thread. It has been
one of the most helpful that I have read, somehow targeting many of
the areas thtt I'm exploring. It is hard to let go of old ways so
I'm so thankful that I have all of you as guides!
Chris
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
First to Rob to tell you that you aren't the only family seeking to
understand all of this. When I first encountered RU ideas, I thought
it was really crazy. But, as someone said earlier, truth has a way
of grabbing hold. Even though I felt skeptical, I felt a magnetic
attraction to learning more about this. I couldn't sleep at night
for entertaining these new ideas--and for staying up late reading
everything in sight, both online and in print. I do feel like I've
had some major ah-ha's and there are times when I still don't "get"
what it would look like or how to do it in certain situations.
Second, thanks to all who have written on this thread. It has been
one of the most helpful that I have read, somehow targeting many of
the areas thtt I'm exploring. It is hard to let go of old ways so
I'm so thankful that I have all of you as guides!
Chris
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>going to
> Some thoughts after re-reading the previous posts.
>
> I like the idea of a designated place for them to be if they're
> stay up. BUT -- we have too much stuff laying out that we don'twant them
> to have access to. This increases stress, and sets us up for alot of
> serious negotiations in order to get it back (or a lot of "Nos" andwith leaving
> arbitrariness -- ick!). SOOOOOO, if we were to be comfortable
> either or both awake while we went to sleep, we would need toclear some of
> that stuff out. It's difficult to change my thinking from "Whycan't they
> just go to bed?" to "How could we make it so that we're OK withthem being
> up later than me?"rather than
>
> We have been implementing playfulness a lot more for connecting
> force and arbitrariness to "rectify a situation."connecting with
> We've found that when they "act up," they are in need of re-
> us. Sometimes being playful is required, sometimes reflecting,sometimes
> just being near, depending upon the situation. These tend to workwhereas
> before we would be "enforcing" or doling out "justice."ideas,
>
>
> I guess I'm rambling here now, so I'll just sign off. Any more
> anyone?
>
> --Rob
> DH to Seana for 10 years
> "Daddy!" to Genevieve (5) and Elissa (4)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Kendrah Nilsestuen
<carebear-79@...> wrote:
than what I'm describing - although I can see how the word "spike"
may have been confusing. Mo's high-energy time starts around 6pm and
it *is* happy play, its just sort of....supercharged. Its not a
response to over-tiredness, although I've seen her have that sort of
reaction, too. Not that I'm trying to disparage *your* experience!
Just clarifying (I hope).
The "delirium" reaction can sometimes be triggered by food, btw. I
don't mean in a food-sensitivity sort of way, rather that some foods
are easier to digest and have different effects at different times
of day. Some kids will have more difficulty settling down to sleep
if they eat certain foods an hour before - but *which* foods can
vary tremendously. Its something to look at, though, as a factor,
especially if there's sort-of a pattern, but not consistent.
people or too much going on, or whatever. It can also happen when a
body needs some protein.
The tricky part, from an RU perspective, is what to *do* about it.
Figuring that out can take some experimentation, which may mean some
candid conversations about the fact that mom and dad are just
guessing! That admission is a big part of what makes this sort of
problem solving respectful (and different) - we (adults) aren't
coming down and saying "This is what We're going to do!" we're
saying "I have an idea I'd like to try for a little and see if it
helps."
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<carebear-79@...> wrote:
>of
> <<Alternately, some kids have a kind of "energy spike" right before
> they go to sleep - they don't so much need to calm down as
> to "discharge".>>
>
> This is interesting as my dd is the same way (she's four). I was
> discussing it with a friend (who has read much more about sleep
> patterns than I) and she told me that if children reach that state
> delirium where they are not really happily playing anymore, buthave
> rather have the bouncing off the walls type of energy that they
> surpassed the time when they should of went to sleep, by about anI know what your friend means by this, and its a different situation
> hour.
than what I'm describing - although I can see how the word "spike"
may have been confusing. Mo's high-energy time starts around 6pm and
it *is* happy play, its just sort of....supercharged. Its not a
response to over-tiredness, although I've seen her have that sort of
reaction, too. Not that I'm trying to disparage *your* experience!
Just clarifying (I hope).
The "delirium" reaction can sometimes be triggered by food, btw. I
don't mean in a food-sensitivity sort of way, rather that some foods
are easier to digest and have different effects at different times
of day. Some kids will have more difficulty settling down to sleep
if they eat certain foods an hour before - but *which* foods can
vary tremendously. Its something to look at, though, as a factor,
especially if there's sort-of a pattern, but not consistent.
> She explained that when the body is overly tired it goes into aSome kids do this when they're overstimulated in general - too many
> sort of fight or flight response.
people or too much going on, or whatever. It can also happen when a
body needs some protein.
The tricky part, from an RU perspective, is what to *do* about it.
Figuring that out can take some experimentation, which may mean some
candid conversations about the fact that mom and dad are just
guessing! That admission is a big part of what makes this sort of
problem solving respectful (and different) - we (adults) aren't
coming down and saying "This is what We're going to do!" we're
saying "I have an idea I'd like to try for a little and see if it
helps."
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
fantasies! - about how we would like our lives with out kids
to "look". There are plenty of parenting strategies out there aimed
at fitting children into those expectations, too - the one that
comes to *my* mind is the philosophy of surrounding children with
beautiful things and teaching them to be careful and respectful of
those things. It was a big shift for me to step back from those
expectations, even when I could see how they were impeding my kids'
autonomy.
That's a really lovely reframing of the idea that "kids act up to
get attention". Very positive spin on that old saw - I like that. I
find it really useful, talking with my conventional parenting
friends, to be able to re-state those sorts of truisms from a
different perspective.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>> It's difficult to change my thinking from "Why can't theythem being
> just go to bed?" to "How could we make it so that we're OK with
> up later than me?"I think part of that diffuculty has to do with expectations - even
fantasies! - about how we would like our lives with out kids
to "look". There are plenty of parenting strategies out there aimed
at fitting children into those expectations, too - the one that
comes to *my* mind is the philosophy of surrounding children with
beautiful things and teaching them to be careful and respectful of
those things. It was a big shift for me to step back from those
expectations, even when I could see how they were impeding my kids'
autonomy.
> We've found that when they "act up," they are in need of re-connecting with
> us. Sometimes being playful is required, sometimes reflecting,sometimes
> just being near, depending upon the situation.TA DA!
That's a really lovely reframing of the idea that "kids act up to
get attention". Very positive spin on that old saw - I like that. I
find it really useful, talking with my conventional parenting
friends, to be able to re-state those sorts of truisms from a
different perspective.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
asmb65
>of
> This is interesting as my dd is the same way (she's four). I was
> discussing it with a friend (who has read much more about sleep
> patterns than I) and she told me that if children reach that state
> delirium where they are not really happily playing anymore, buta
> rather have the bouncing off the walls type of energy that they have
> surpassed the time when they should of went to sleep, by about an
> hour. She explained that when the body is overly tired it goes into
> sort of fight or flight response. The child's body figures somethingThis is neat Sam, 5 does this pretty well every night. It is tiring for
> must be wrong if they aren't sleeping when they should be so nature
> gives them an extreme boost of energy thinking that they need it for
> survival, or something like that, lol!
me but at the same time he seems to learn so much during this time. He
gobbles up games, puzzles, activities. We play Katamino, Monopoly
Junior, play a kid's version of Poker (Target) and he just keeps
frenetically pulling the games out. I've just given in to staying
up 'til 11 with him sometimes. I think the biggest reason he does it is
because Quinn is asleep and he has one-on-one mommy or daddy (or both)
time. Just like he did before Quinn was born. He adores his brother but
he still remembers (and longs for) the time when it was just the three
of us.
Interestingly though, he'll do this for three or four nights in a row
and then go to bed really early one night and sleep for about 12 hours
(he usually only sleeps for 10 or so). Then mommy and daddy finally get
our time ; )
Susan
asmb65
--- In [email protected], Emilie <erugard@...> wrote:
I just wanted to add that there is an Unschooling Canada group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling_Canada/ Really great bunch.
I'm trying to think of how you can get more support. Perhaps you could
post to see if there are other unschoolers close to where you live to
meet up with to help lighten your load.
By the way, I don't think you are whining at all! Your situation sounds
exhausting.
Susan
>Emilie,
> Hello,
>
> I have been lurking on this list long enough to know that my story
> will just sound like whining to most of you :-). But I am honestly
> looking for advice.
I just wanted to add that there is an Unschooling Canada group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling_Canada/ Really great bunch.
I'm trying to think of how you can get more support. Perhaps you could
post to see if there are other unschoolers close to where you live to
meet up with to help lighten your load.
By the way, I don't think you are whining at all! Your situation sounds
exhausting.
Susan
Kathleen Gehrke
I just wanted to add that when someone tells me I have to go to bed,
or pretty much have to do anything, I want to kick their ass. They are
not my friend, unless of course they suggest it in a loving way.
Discussing and holding my best interest in their heart.
Loads of difference between... GO TO BED NOW>> BECAUSE I SAID SO
and a rub, a hug and wow your eyes look really tired could I help you
get settled down, make you some hot herbal tea???
When option b gets the response... No I want to stay up.. The real
issue is in saying okay can I get you tea anyway?
Kathleen
adding her .02
or pretty much have to do anything, I want to kick their ass. They are
not my friend, unless of course they suggest it in a loving way.
Discussing and holding my best interest in their heart.
Loads of difference between... GO TO BED NOW>> BECAUSE I SAID SO
and a rub, a hug and wow your eyes look really tired could I help you
get settled down, make you some hot herbal tea???
When option b gets the response... No I want to stay up.. The real
issue is in saying okay can I get you tea anyway?
Kathleen
adding her .02
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
are getting ready to wind down. My girls are 4 and 2 and we do not
co-sleep but the 4 yr old would sleep next to our bed whenever she
needed to. Now she "sleeps" on the couch since she also has
allergies and needed to be proped up at night or she just coughs all
night.
But this is what the evening looks like. We go outside from about
7:30 till almost 9:30 (we live in Utah and that is when it cools
off) and I *suggest* baths since they are sweaty and sometimes
sandy. Most the time they both take a shower and get into something
to sleep in. We have a snack if they are hungry and I also *suggest*
teeth brushing and going potty. Usually I will then offer to read
books. If the little one is obviously tired I will ask her is she
wants books or to lay down. If she wants books sometimes big sister
joins us. If not I lay down with her in her bed till alseep. Big
sister usually watches tv with daddy and will eventually say I am
tired I need a rest and will lay down on the couch and fall alseep.
This all may not be acomplished until 11:30 at night.
I realized early on that keeping them up till they were tired and
then having them fall asleep quickly was better than fighting with
them till 10:oo anyway.
So best advice is to start slow. Watch them to see when the act
tired and then do bedish stuff and take it slow. I realized that
children do not have to fall asleep in their beds and I remember a
quote from I think Sandra Dodd that when asked when Kirby? when to
bed they would say a half hour after he falls alsleep. I remember
that now when I think bedtime should happen a certain way. We as
adults know when we should get our butts to bed and I think kids do
too if we just let them.
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>I've been thinking about
> bedtime being the first.- do you
>
> Assuming you've gotten through all that, then, concerning bedtime -
> let them go to bed whenever they wish? Any caveats to that foryour
> family?For me it is not bedtime at a certain hour but when I can see they
>
are getting ready to wind down. My girls are 4 and 2 and we do not
co-sleep but the 4 yr old would sleep next to our bed whenever she
needed to. Now she "sleeps" on the couch since she also has
allergies and needed to be proped up at night or she just coughs all
night.
But this is what the evening looks like. We go outside from about
7:30 till almost 9:30 (we live in Utah and that is when it cools
off) and I *suggest* baths since they are sweaty and sometimes
sandy. Most the time they both take a shower and get into something
to sleep in. We have a snack if they are hungry and I also *suggest*
teeth brushing and going potty. Usually I will then offer to read
books. If the little one is obviously tired I will ask her is she
wants books or to lay down. If she wants books sometimes big sister
joins us. If not I lay down with her in her bed till alseep. Big
sister usually watches tv with daddy and will eventually say I am
tired I need a rest and will lay down on the couch and fall alseep.
This all may not be acomplished until 11:30 at night.
I realized early on that keeping them up till they were tired and
then having them fall asleep quickly was better than fighting with
them till 10:oo anyway.
So best advice is to start slow. Watch them to see when the act
tired and then do bedish stuff and take it slow. I realized that
children do not have to fall asleep in their beds and I remember a
quote from I think Sandra Dodd that when asked when Kirby? when to
bed they would say a half hour after he falls alsleep. I remember
that now when I think bedtime should happen a certain way. We as
adults know when we should get our butts to bed and I think kids do
too if we just let them.