Leslie Kowalski

From Kelly:

One of the things we would do IS model. If one of the boys wanted
McD's, I'd go there; but then I would go to the place *I* found more
attractive. I wouldn't necessarily get a Big Mac (although I did on
occasion), but would opt for something better (in my opinion). If my
son asked why, I'd tell him that I didn't want McD's.

------------------

Hi all,

I've been thinking a lot about this lately because my almost 8 year
old daughter has been asking about McD's, which she has not yet been
to. I like what Kelly wrote here because my "intellectual" brain
goes to this place. But, then, there's the gut-reaction side of me.
The side that has read "Fast Food Nation", the side of me that
politically, philosophically, and even just on a gut level, just
can't go to McD's. I know that this is my issue, and I don't want to
put it all over my daughter. I also don't want to spend my money
there - it feels completely wrong to me. I have as strong a reaction
to McD's as I do to certain political figures/issues (not to name
names, but just to give you an idea of how visceral it is for me).

So, I've acknowledged to her that I know that she is really curious
about McDonald's, that she feels like everyone has been there but
her. I've talked to her about the nutritional aspect of the food and
likened it to something like hot dogs - something that's not good for
you to eat all the time, but fine to have once in a while, which is
the kind of statement that is consistent with our family
nutritionally-based conversations that we have had in the past. (I
know that this is a point that we could also go around and around on
in this group, but I'd like to keep on the question I'm posting here
(for now - I'd probably like to talk more about this in the future),
if possible). I've acknowledged that the food does taste good, and
that she will get there at some point, but that but Mommy and Daddy
just don't want to go there because we don't like the company (which
is something she has heard us say about other companies that we don't
support).

So, I say this, and then there's this niggling feeling inside of me
which says "well, what exactly do I want to happen here?". Do I want
for this to build it up inside of her, and then have someone else
take her, and totally remove myself from her experience of it, and
remove myself from a possible growth experience for both of us??
That doesn't feel right either.

Ultimately, what I wonder is what do you do when your political,
moral, etc views totally clash with what your child wants, and you
feel so strongly about this that you do not want to put even one
penny of your money into the coffers of that world. You can put any
example here (McD's, WalMart, going to school, giving to certain
charities, supporting political candidates, etc, etc). Pick your
most detested issue and insert it into the situation (if you need to
separate it a bit from the exact issue of McD's, which can be a hot
button).

Thanks,
Leslie (in NJ)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

April Morris

Here's a bit of a different scenario and how I've dealt with it. I detest
scary movies, I've never liked them, even as a teen and have never seen one.
By scary I mean what is probably termed a horror movie. I can handle a good
action movie and some violence, but I just can't do the horror genre. When
my kids started getting older and wanting to watch them I just cringed
inside. I was sure they would be exposed to horrible things and lose their
sensitivity and gentleness. The oldest hit this age (early teens) shortly
after we embraced unschooling. It took me a while to really get to the
point of keeping my opinions to myself about horror movies. I, quite
honestly, was pretty judgemental of anyone wanting to watch horror
movies. As it turns out, all of my kids enjoy a good horror movie. Even my
11 year old has seen a couple that the older kids deemed ok for him. What I
have done is learned to appreciate what they enjoy about the movies. I no
longer am judgemental about the movies and I go out of my way to create a
fun environment when they want to watch one. I still can't bring myself to
watch them. I don't think I need put myself in the position of nightmares
and being uncomfortable. But I can still appreciate their joy and facilitate
a fun time. I provide snacks, extra pillows and blankets for those that need
to hide behind them during tense scenes. I keep myself available in case it
gets too intense for someone and they want to be safe with me (not that
that's ever happened....but just in case) If a movie makes it hard to sleep
or someone has a nightmare, I'm available without an 'I told you so'
attitude. I can support their desire to watch these movies and even be
part of it by providing snacks and a place to watch without actually
participating in watching the movies. In return, my kids respect my feelings
about the horror movies and don't try to get me to watch and when they talk
about the movie with me, they are careful not to be too graphic. And of
course, they are still sensitive and gentle....watching the movies has not
changed who they are. This is something that seems perfectly obvious to me
now, but I really had to make a paradigm shift to get to that point.

--
~April
Mom to Kate-20 (out on her own now!), Lisa-18, Karl-16, & Ben-11.
Two boys that live with us and call me mom: Mike-18 & Willis-17
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey




On 6/22/07, Leslie Kowalski <lrkowalski@...> wrote:
>
> From Kelly:
>
> One of the things we would do IS model. If one of the boys wanted
> McD's, I'd go there; but then I would go to the place *I* found more
> attractive. I wouldn't necessarily get a Big Mac (although I did on
> occasion), but would opt for something better (in my opinion). If my
> son asked why, I'd tell him that I didn't want McD's.
>
> ------------------
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been thinking a lot about this lately because my almost 8 year
> old daughter has been asking about McD's, which she has not yet been
> to. I like what Kelly wrote here because my "intellectual" brain
> goes to this place. But, then, there's the gut-reaction side of me.
> The side that has read "Fast Food Nation", the side of me that
> politically, philosophically, and even just on a gut level, just
> can't go to McD's. I know that this is my issue, and I don't want to
> put it all over my daughter. I also don't want to spend my money
> there - it feels completely wrong to me. I have as strong a reaction
> to McD's as I do to certain political figures/issues (not to name
> names, but just to give you an idea of how visceral it is for me).
>
> So, I've acknowledged to her that I know that she is really curious
> about McDonald's, that she feels like everyone has been there but
> her. I've talked to her about the nutritional aspect of the food and
> likened it to something like hot dogs - something that's not good for
> you to eat all the time, but fine to have once in a while, which is
> the kind of statement that is consistent with our family
> nutritionally-based conversations that we have had in the past. (I
> know that this is a point that we could also go around and around on
> in this group, but I'd like to keep on the question I'm posting here
> (for now - I'd probably like to talk more about this in the future),
> if possible). I've acknowledged that the food does taste good, and
> that she will get there at some point, but that but Mommy and Daddy
> just don't want to go there because we don't like the company (which
> is something she has heard us say about other companies that we don't
> support).
>
> So, I say this, and then there's this niggling feeling inside of me
> which says "well, what exactly do I want to happen here?". Do I want
> for this to build it up inside of her, and then have someone else
> take her, and totally remove myself from her experience of it, and
> remove myself from a possible growth experience for both of us??
> That doesn't feel right either.
>
> Ultimately, what I wonder is what do you do when your political,
> moral, etc views totally clash with what your child wants, and you
> feel so strongly about this that you do not want to put even one
> penny of your money into the coffers of that world. You can put any
> example here (McD's, WalMart, going to school, giving to certain
> charities, supporting political candidates, etc, etc). Pick your
> most detested issue and insert it into the situation (if you need to
> separate it a bit from the exact issue of McD's, which can be a hot
> button).
>
> Thanks,
> Leslie (in NJ)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On 6/22/07, Leslie Kowalski <lrkowalski@...> wrote:
>
> Ultimately, what I wonder is what do you do when your political,
> moral, etc views totally clash with what your child wants, and you
> feel so strongly about this that you do not want to put even one
> penny of your money into the coffers of that world. You can put any
> example here (McD's, WalMart, going to school, giving to certain
> charities, supporting political candidates, etc, etc). Pick your
> most detested issue and insert it into the situation (if you need to
> separate it a bit from the exact issue of McD's, which can be a hot
> button).
>
>
>
>


Hands down, my child is more important than my politics. period.
That said, I dread going into the store-that-shall-not-be-named
(McWal-Bucks). And sometimes, I go into the store bursting with Joy at the
opportunity I have to be with my son and *show* him that my perspectives
need not be his own.

I did the *let someone else take you* for a while. It was funny that Hayden
would go into the store, reciting the Walmart Movie, sharing that our
hometown store was in the film as we had an act of violence in the parking
lot (filmed but not witnessed--the movie's complaint). Mostly I realized,
when he came home with his jubilant bounty, that I had missed a wonderful
time with my boy because *I* held my ideals as priority over my relationship
with him. Here's a blog post from one of our most recent trips:
http://hannahbearski.blogspot.com/2007/01/our-life-is-adventure.html

I've got more to share, how we have conversations about where we *do* shop
and why... our happy compromise :) Alas, the boy needs his 'puter at the
moment!!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Kowalski <lrkowalski@...>

I know that this is my issue, and I don't want to
put it all over my daughter. I also don't want to spend my money
there - it feels completely wrong to me. I have as strong a reaction
to McD's as I do to certain political figures/issues (not to name
names, but just to give you an idea of how visceral it is for me).

-=-=-=-=

When I balked at going to Cracker Barrel because they, at the time,
wouldn't hire gays, my friend (who was offering to take me there after
a long dog show day) told me, "Kelly, you can't EAT politics." <g> At
the time, the comraderie and his humor broke my will. But his comment
left an impression.

-=-=-=-=-

So, I've acknowledged to her that I know that she is really curious
about McDonald's, that she feels like everyone has been there but
her. I've talked to her about the nutritional aspect of the food and
likened it to something like hot dogs - something that's not good for
you to eat all the time, but fine to have once in a while, which is
the kind of statement that is consistent with our family
nutritionally-based conversations that we have had in the past. (I
know that this is a point that we could also go around and around on
in this group, but I'd like to keep on the question I'm posting here
(for now - I'd probably like to talk more about this in the future),
if possible). I've acknowledged that the food does taste good, and
that she will get there at some point, but that but Mommy and Daddy
just don't want to go there because we don't like the company (which
is something she has heard us say about other companies that we don't
support).

-=-=-=-=-=-

You seem to be open-mided enough to talk about in depth with her, but
not *quite* ready to take the leap and do what she wants. You may be
talking it to death!

-=-=-=-=-

So, I say this, and then there's this niggling feeling inside of me
which says "well, what exactly do I want to happen here?". Do I want
for this to build it up inside of her, and then have someone else
take her, and totally remove myself from her experience of it, and
remove myself from a possible growth experience for both of us??
That doesn't feel right either.

-=-=-=-=-

And it makes it all the more attractive---is that what you want? I
mean---it must be *REALLY* good if you're keeping her away from it. It
must seem to her that you think she can't handle it.

-=-=-=-=-

Ultimately, what I wonder is what do you do when your political,
moral, etc views totally clash with what your child wants, and you
feel so strongly about this that you do not want to put even one
penny of your money into the coffers of that world. You can put any
example here (McD's, WalMart, going to school, giving to certain
charities, supporting political candidates, etc, etc). Pick your
most detested issue and insert it into the situation (if you need to
separate it a bit from the exact issue of McD's, which can be a hot
button).

-=-=-=-

I realize that my child's (or my friend's) happiness is more important
than my politics.

I *still* VERY unwillingly give money to the schools AND to politicians
(right out of my taxes) AND to charities I don't believe in (check out
your local electric & gas company's chosen charities!!!). I can't stop
where they decide to put *my* money. I *can* choose how much pleasure
I'll give my children. They grow up. They'll eventually learn more and
more about certain complanies and make their own, wise choices. But if
I make all of their choices FOR them, how will they ever be able to
compare and choose with their heads and hearts?

What's more important to you? Your child or your politics?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org







________________________________________________________________________
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Su Penn

On Jun 22, 2007, at 8:25 AM, Leslie Kowalski wrote:

> But, then, there's the gut-reaction side of me.
> The side that has read "Fast Food Nation", the side of me that
> politically, philosophically, and even just on a gut level, just
> can't go to McD's.

You might consider reading "The Gospel of Food," too. The author
doesn't address every issue about McDonald's, but his pro-McDonald's
section is eye-opening in that it's a good reminder that almost
everything can be looked at through a different prism that shows it
in a very different light.

> Ultimately, what I wonder is what do you do when your political,
> moral, etc views totally clash with what your child wants, and you
> feel so strongly about this that you do not want to put even one
> penny of your money into the coffers of that world.

One thing I've done is read, read, read, read, read. I go out on
purpose and read books that challenge conventional wisdom, or my own
assumptions. I read conservative writers, I read books like "Why
Globalization Works" and "The Skeptical Environmentalist" and "The
Obesity Myth." Just to remind myself that well-intentioned, well-
informed people can have radically different opinions--evidence-based
opinions!--about these kinds of issues. It gets harder and harder to
sustain a "There's no way in hell I'd let one dollar of my money go
to that!" position if you expose yourself open-mindedly to smart and
reasonable people who disagree with you.

I also use an old relationship joke from my lesbian days. As
lesbians, we used to joke all the time about how embedded woman-woman
relationships can get. We used to have a joke about that medicine Co-
Advil: "It's what you take when your lover has a headache." Ha ha.
Anyway, my friends and I developed this joke that is also a good
reminder about boundaries: we'd wave our hands in a circle in front
of our own chests, and say, "Me!" And then wave it in a circle in
front of someone else's (or an imaginary someone) and say, "You."
"Me, you. Me, you." Just for a reminder.

Now I do that with my kids. I'm me, and they're them. "You can't have
that because I don't want to have it" gets harder to sustain when I
remember that they're _people_ and like any other person they may
make different choices than I do.

> You can put any
> example here (McD's, WalMart, going to school, giving to certain
> charities, supporting political candidates, etc, etc). Pick your
> most detested issue

See, I don't "detest" things anymore. Maybe it comes from having been
wrong about so much during my radical lesbian feminist phase--in our
family, we never say "never" anymore. My best friend and sometimes-
lover used to joke that she was going to get "Dyke" tattoo'd on her
arm, and if she ever decided she wasn't a lesbian anymore, she'd just
cut her arm off. Ha ha ha ha ha. He's a man now, and I'm married to
one. Fortunately, we both still have our arms.

Having that dramatic experience of having been so very wrong about
how evil men were and how inherently bad for women opposite-sex
relationships were and so on, I am strongly conscious of my
fallibility. I tell my kids what I think and feel about things, but I
support their decisions, too.

You said something as well about not wanting to spend "your" money at
McDonald's. We don't think about money like that at our house, which
is good because three out of four of us don't earn any, but are
depending on the generous sharing of my partner. When the kids want
something, I do think about it in the context of the family budget,
and I share that information with them. Every month when I plan the
monthly budget for us, I include a "kids" section, for them to spend
as they see fit. It varies depending on other bills; it might be $20
for the whole month, or it might be $50. But we also make decisions
on the fly: "Yes, I can buy you that Star Wars Lego set, but I'd have
to use some of the money I had set aside for eating out. That means
we might not be able to order pizza like we were thinking of. Would
you rather have the Lego set than order pizza? We could still make
pizza at home if we wanted," or, "If we buy that, there's not going
to be as much for groceries, and we might not be able to get two
flavors of ice cream. Do you think we can all agree on one flavor?"

Su

mom of Eric, 6, and Carl, 3

Deb

--- In [email protected], "diana jenner"
<hahamommy@...> wrote:
>
> On 6/22/07, Leslie Kowalski <lrkowalski@...> wrote:
>> the store-that-shall-not-be-named (McWal-Bucks).

Oh, you mean "Voldemart"!!lol

--Deb

Johanna

Dear Leslie,

maybe it helps if you look at it from an "educational" angle: YOU had the chance to decide
on your own if you wanted to support McDonald's or not, and she should be able to make
that decision on her own as well. Obviously it's not enough for her to listen to YOUR
decision, and obviously, she needs that experience, and it might take years until she sees
the "evil" behind McDonald's – or maybe she just decides, she likes it more than she find's
it evil. Maybe, she likes it, but doesn't like the evil part and decides to do whatever it takes
to work there and take control of things, and *change* the things she doesn't like about it.
Or to sell OK-Burgers in her own store. The thing is, you don't have control over the
outcome anyway, but you are not helping her making that decision on her own, although
it's part of her human rights to do so.

BUT, I don't agree that you should do whatever it takes to force yourself going there, if you
just "can't". Many here said they could at some point, and maybe you can if you shift your
perspective - but maybe not, and that is your decision. But there are some other solutions
to that!

Can an uncle take her? Can you invite friends of her over and let her have small party there
with two or three friends and wait outside in the car? Can you go there and be with her
without eating anything yourself? Doesn't she have some money of her own to spend?

You yourself might need a process of learning which might involve going through "have
someone else take her" "not eating but going with" "letting her go alone with friends", so I
wouldn't advice to do it although your don't feel good about it until you do. Though you
might be able to find a way to feel goof about it, but maybe just not and that will have to
be accepted. It will be easy to accept if you accept her way of living her life as well :-)

Greetings
Johanna

Alice Roddy

> Ultimately, what I wonder is what do you do when your
political,

> moral, etc views totally clash with what your child
wants, and you


> feel so strongly about this that you do not want to put
even one


> penny of your money into the coffers of that world. You
can put any


> example here (McD's, WalMart, going to school, giving
to certain


> charities, supporting political candidates, etc, etc).
Pick your






> most detested issue and insert it into the situation.





I don�t buy Nestles products. Nestles is about the biggest
food company in the world and makes money in all sorts of ways but it persists
in marketing human milk substitutes in ways that undermine babies receiving
their species specific food. Nestles contributes to the death of many infants
and the impaired development of many more. I don�t buy Nestles.





I was recently put to the test because I had promised my
granddaughter strawberry milk but went to the supermarket that doesn�t sell an alternative
to Nestles s.m.. I believe that, in general, there is another way so I went to the
powdered drink isle and found a packet of strawberry Kool Aid. When I got home I
told my granddaughter about my dilemma and that we could mix our own strawberry
milk but that I couldn�t promise it would taste right. She was thrilled to mix it
all up and declared it delicious. Had the drink been a disaster and we threw it out, she at least would have known I respected her request as best I could at the time.


I think it is important for her to know me, who I am, and that, among other things, I live by certain values and convictions.



Another of my standards is to respect other people's autonomy so I don't tell others what they can and can't buy. My dil does buy Nestles and I don't say anything about it either by word or body language.



I may get backed into a corner again sometime and I hope I can again find a solution that protects my integrity while also respecting the autonomy of others.

HTH,

Gramma Alice
Breastfeeding is the biological norm for infants. It is a relationship that provides food, connection, protection from illness to the baby and stress reducing hormones to the mother.





____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

asmb65

>
> Gramma Alice
> Breastfeeding is the biological norm for infants. It is a
> relationship that provides food, connection, protection from illness
> to the baby and stress reducing hormones to the mother.


I love your tag-line Gramma Alice! And it sounds like you came up with
a creative solution to your grand daughter's request.

From someone who is nursing a 2 1/2 and 5 1/2 year old, I may change
the word "infant" in your tag-line though! Just kidding but I really
hope the day comes when the general public sees toddlers and young
children nursing as the biological norm as well (it used to be).

Susan