Sharon Thomas

Hi,
I am really new to this list but hope to continue learning as I "lurk".
We are working to replace the punishment/discipline mode we have used into
respectful daily living.
If you don't mind my asking: have any of you noticed a difference in how
your children respond or act vs. disciplined children?I have read some
peoples posts other places and while I like the results they speak of I have
not lived near anyone that has done this.The proof is in the pudding so to
speak and I hope to hear that any making changes have seen a difference.
Have any of you disciplined then learned that it wasn't helping or working
and then made changes? If so how did you help your kids overcome the lessons
taught by "if you don't do this I'll hit you?" I didn't say that to my kids
but it all came out the same since if they didn't do as we said they would
be punished or spanked.I am almost afraid to admit here that we have
punished/spanked but we have. Working on a peaceful family life takes more
thought and feeling. It's a whole different way of living.I could use some
ideas.
I apologize for asking so many things but I am wanting to learn all I can
.....thanks for any ideas
mamaof4

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alyce

--- In [email protected], "Sharon Thomas"
<meplusfive@b...> wrote:

> Have any of you disciplined then learned that it wasn't helping
or working
> and then made changes? If so how did you help your kids overcome
the lessons
> taught by "if you don't do this I'll hit you?" I didn't say that
to my kids
> but it all came out the same since if they didn't do as we said
they would
> be punished or spanked.I am almost afraid to admit here that we
have
> punished/spanked but we have. Working on a peaceful family life
takes more
> thought and feeling. It's a whole different way of living.I could
use some
> ideas.
> I apologize for asking so many things but I am wanting to learn
all I can
> .....thanks for any ideas
> mamaof4
>

Hi Sharon,

Don't be afraid to admit anything here. We're all here to help each
other and more than happy to share info and experiences. First
thing I'd ask you is what kinds of things are you talking about that
you had said, "do it or else..." As for their overcoming those
lessons, I'd say it's just going to take time.

Back to those do it or else things. Are they things that really
must be done? I know I was raised with a heavy do it or else... and
I followed suit for a long time with my own until I got a clue. I
found most of it was a knee jerk reaction and not thoughtful in its
dispensation. I was just aping what I had been told growing up.
Lots of what I said "must be done" really didn't need be, after I
thought about it. Room cleaning? Close the door if you don't want
to see it. It's their room. If they're young, you can help them -
make it game you do together. If older and they don't want to clean
it, let it go. Family area messy? Shared space = shared
responsibility. Tell them it's hard for you to do it alone and it
would be great to tidy up together since it was mussed together.
Help putting the groceries away? Mine are great about this sort of
thing - a situation wherein I need help, I've explained how it
helps.. and I help them as well when they ask. Mutual respect and
mutual consideration for each other's feelings and needs.

The difference has been in lots of explaining the "whys" of my
requests to them. None of that "just do it cuz I'm the mom" stuff.
If they understand why and how it will help, they're most likely to
be happy to jump in and do with you.

Make sense? Is there something more specific you were thinking
about?

Alyce

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "Sharon Thomas"
<meplusfive@b...> wrote:
> Have any of you disciplined then learned that it wasn't helping
or working
> and then made changes? If so how did you help your kids overcome
the lessons
> taught by "if you don't do this I'll hit you?"

Well, we didn't spank, but we did use time-outs and raise our voices
a lot when Mikey was 2 and it just FAILED. Any negative emotion we
directed at him got magnified back at us 100X.

I started reading about unschooling this year and mindful parenting,
non-coercive parenting and we've been making a ton of changes.

At first it was too much of me being a martyr and saying things
like, "okay, eat whatever you want and don't blame me if you feel
hungry in an hour" and getting mad that he didn't want to help me
clean up, etc. For me, it was like peeling layers of an onion off. It
is hard work to stop acting in the way you were parented and always
thought you would parent and make every action consciously different.
I still have a long way to go, but am making progress every week, if
not every day.

Mikey is much happier, much more pleasant, having more fun, and
actually has listened to me when I've made a suggestion or two about
what he eats. It's like he's forgotten that he's supposed to disagree
with whatever I say about food!!! <g>

Does that help?

--aj

Sherri-Lee Pressman

Hi Sharon,



I am not a seasoned unschooler, but have worked hard to go from how punitive
I was (even though I was trying not to be) to being more positive.



I have relaxed our lives about a lot of things and for me the biggest thing
I have noticed, is I feel less punitive in my thinking towards her since
this all started. Before I used to put off my things until she was sleeping.
So computer during her nap, not long enough. Eating certain foods while she
was napping or sleeping because I didn't want her to see it yet. Watching TV
only while she slept. So I put off a lot of my interests and needs and wants
waiting until she was asleep. So when she didn't go to sleep as I had
planned I was HUGELY resentful of her for "doing this to me". Now I don't
wait or put off ME for her as much. Still somethings, hey if I am going to
eat an entire bag of salt and vinegar chips I wait for her to be asleep, or
to watch a movie with my dh we wait. But there are so many less things that
I put off until she is asleep that I am way less resentful and so less
punitive. And in turn I do see a difference in her behaviour. She is not
feeling punished for being a 4 year old and so is more comfortable with me.
I still see her apologizing for things she doesn't need to and asking if I
am mad her a lot, I guess it will take time for her to see that I have
changed.



On another note and perhaps unrelated, I find your choice of words
interesting. People who unschool don't NOT discipline. Discipline means to
teach, not to punish. So in the past you (and me) may have punished, but it
wasn't necessarily discipline. It took me awhile to get that. But I
discipline my daughter all the time, through teaching her. I do this with
modeling (now thankfully) and through open discussions with her and just
plain telling her sometimes. But I am very conscious of the difference
between discipline and punishment.



You might find the transition to unschooling or a more relaxed style of
living easier, if you don't think you have to give up discipline all
together.



Sherri-Lee



_____

From: Sharon Thomas [mailto:meplusfive@...]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] need to learn more



Hi,
I am really new to this list but hope to continue learning as I "lurk".
We are working to replace the punishment/discipline mode we have used into
respectful daily living.
If you don't mind my asking: have any of you noticed a difference in how
your children respond or act vs. disciplined children?I have read some
peoples posts other places and while I like the results they speak of I have
not lived near anyone that has done this.The proof is in the pudding so to
speak and I hope to hear that any making changes have seen a difference.
Have any of you disciplined then learned that it wasn't helping or working
and then made changes? If so how did you help your kids overcome the lessons
taught by "if you don't do this I'll hit you?" I didn't say that to my kids
but it all came out the same since if they didn't do as we said they would
be punished or spanked.I am almost afraid to admit here that we have
punished/spanked but we have. Working on a peaceful family life takes more
thought and feeling. It's a whole different way of living.I could use some
ideas.
I apologize for asking so many things but I am wanting to learn all I can
.....thanks for any ideas
mamaof4

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Thomas

Alyce,
thanks for writing.it has been a busy day here so I haven't had much time
to answer but it has been nice to sit down finally and read the responses.
Hmmm...I guess the issues I was thinking about most for " do it or else."
are things that I felt needed doing or that were important to me. Like
making sure their chores were done,rooms clean,picking up after themselves
etc. It has taken some real searching of myself to begin to let go of the
idea that I am responsible for how the house looks,for making sure the kids
learn to do their share etc. It hasn't been so hard to see that what we have
been doing isn't working .Solutions have taken more time.
Talk to the average parent ;even homeschooling, and you will hear that it
is their house and the children need to learn to be responsible.To have
chores, clean up and do their share but wasn't isn't talked about is the
attitude of the kids while all this is going on. It is just accepted that
kids will be kids" and there is going to be tension due to the fact Dad/Mom
are in charge. They'll just have to get used to it.
There has to be a better way and when I started reading parents share that
they didn't punish their kids for mistakes or require chores,set bedtimes
etc. it was incredible. To think that showing respect for our children and
modeling the behavior we hope they will learn can make such a difference I
wanted to know more.
We have begun small working on different areas and I do notice a difference
but there is still more to do. The first response for our 8yos is to hit. I
know where it comes from and it saddens me but
I believe it can change. In time!
thanks for your input. I look forward to more.
sharon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Thomas

AJ,
I have noticed some of the same things here recently. Some days it is slow
going but worth it. I guess I am still wondering how far all this might go.
My baby steps show me that it works but my mind keeps saying "what if " to
lots of different scenarios. You've probably heard them all before. Like:
will they find a balance on watching tv. or will they stay up all night
never brush their teeth again. Stuff like that.
Seems pretty small but when you have been in control it's the small things
that are the hardest to let go of...I think.
I look forward to hearing from you, thanks for the encouragement.

sharon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Thomas

**You might find the transition to unschooling or a more relaxed style of
living easier, if you don't think you have to give up discipline all
together.**

Sherri-Lee,
I couldn't agree more. I do have the terms mixed up. They have been used
interchangeably in my life and there hasn't always been a clear
understanding. Discipline can have a negative connotation depending on how
it is used. I have heard the definition of "disciple-ing" which I like but
somehow
force or coercion seems to sneak in there at times.
I have not seen gentle parenting on a day to day basis. I have heard of
lots of failed attempts from Moms....like:"I tried not spanking but he/she
was just getting out of hand." or "I got so frustrated I swatted him/her on
the bottom and she/he's never done that again."
I haven't had that experience. I had to keep swatting and still many
lessons weren't learned but new things cropped up.Fear is a biggy. Sneaking
or lying etc.It sounds like I spanked all day which isn't the case but it
distresses me to see my children choosing to lie to keep from being punished
Even when we have stopped spanking they would lie because they were afraid
I would get angry.That isn't the kind of relationship I want.
We have been very careful about our diet and haven't allowed sugar.If we
are at friends we allowed a soda or something like that but not normally. I
began to notice the little ones trying to eat all they could hold.I tried
getting some candy and limiting it but then they would sneak it up to their
room.I don't like the idea of having to watch their every move. So this
weekend after our ds stuffed 3 pieces of gum into his mouth and our dd
stuffed 4...I thought something needs to change.My first thought was to get
strict again but the more I thought about it I realized that wasn't the
answer.Hadn't worked so far. My solution ? I took the gum and candy that
was left and divided it up among them.Gave them their share and said they
were responsible for it.It was there's. I wasn't going to be buying more for
awhile so they could eat it all at once or make it last.It was their choice.
They both stood looking at me unbelieving.They asked if I wanted them to put
it on the counter and I said they could put it wherever they wanted it.Our
ds was the one sneaking things upstairs and he didn't seem to know what to
do.He put it on the counter and that is where it has stayed.He knows that if
it gets eaten up fast he won't have anymore until he buys it.We make treats
together like cookies and smoothies but the candy/gum is something that they
can buy themselves.
Trying to get across the idea to all of them that we should treat each
other like we want to be treated....is going to take oodles of time.To
really think about how the other person feels before lashing out with words
or hands.After a dispute they can see that they wouldn't like someone to do
to them what they have just done. i hope in time it will make a difference
in how they react.
Thanks for making me think!!

sharon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

In our house no one is "in charge". We are individual humans choosing
to live together harmoniously. We make decisions that are agreeable
to everyone. Not perfectly. But we strive to find common preferences
so that no one is doing anything that they don't want to do.

Jan Hunt, Jan Fortune Wood, Naomi Aldort, Sandra Dodd all have links
to articles on respectful parenting.

Pat


-- In [email protected], "Sharon Thomas"
<meplusfive@b...> wrote:
> Alyce,
> thanks for writing.it has been a busy day here so I haven't had
much time
> to answer but it has been nice to sit down finally and read the
responses.
> Hmmm...I guess the issues I was thinking about most for " do it
or else."
> are things that I felt needed doing or that were important to me.
Like
> making sure their chores were done,rooms clean,picking up after
themselves
> etc. It has taken some real searching of myself to begin to let go
of the
> idea that I am responsible for how the house looks,for making sure
the kids
> learn to do their share etc. It hasn't been so hard to see that
what we have
> been doing isn't working .Solutions have taken more time.
> Talk to the average parent ;even homeschooling, and you will hear
that it
> is their house and the children need to learn to be responsible.To
have
> chores, clean up and do their share but wasn't isn't talked about
is the
> attitude of the kids while all this is going on. It is just
accepted that
> kids will be kids" and there is going to be tension due to the fact
Dad/Mom
> are in charge. They'll just have to get used to it.
> There has to be a better way and when I started reading parents
share that
> they didn't punish their kids for mistakes or require chores,set
bedtimes
> etc. it was incredible. To think that showing respect for our
children and
> modeling the behavior we hope they will learn can make such a
difference I
> wanted to know more.
> We have begun small working on different areas and I do notice a
difference
> but there is still more to do. The first response for our 8yos is
to hit. I
> know where it comes from and it saddens me but
> I believe it can change. In time!
> thanks for your input. I look forward to more.
> sharon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

I found the book Living Joyfully With Children by Win and Bill Sweet
to be inspirational and practical. It suggests living by principles
rather than rules. Principles that parents and children embrace such
as not doing things that damage another's dignity, not doing things
that are harmful to self or others. The authors help one to look at
the big picture to nurture the family to joyful, non-adversarial
relationships and to honor ourselves with self-respect through
modeling self-care. Punishments are not utilized, rather the authors
recommend learning about the effect our actions have on ourselves and
others thorough discussion.

As a result of reading the book our family embraces the goal
of "nurturing a healthy, emotional, physical and mental foundation
from which each of us can explore the world without fear"

Pat

--- In [email protected], "Sharon Thomas"
<meplusfive@b...> wrote:
>
> **You might find the transition to unschooling or a more relaxed
style of
> living easier, if you don't think you have to give up discipline all
> together.**
>
> Sherri-Lee,
> I couldn't agree more. I do have the terms mixed up. They have
been used
> interchangeably in my life and there hasn't always been a clear
> understanding. Discipline can have a negative connotation depending
on how
> it is used. I have heard the definition of "disciple-ing" which I
like but
> somehow
> force or coercion seems to sneak in there at times.
> I have not seen gentle parenting on a day to day basis. I have
heard of
> lots of failed attempts from Moms....like:"I tried not spanking but
he/she
> was just getting out of hand." or "I got so frustrated I swatted
him/her on
> the bottom and she/he's never done that again."
> I haven't had that experience. I had to keep swatting and still
many
> lessons weren't learned but new things cropped up.Fear is a biggy.
Sneaking
> or lying etc.It sounds like I spanked all day which isn't the case
but it
> distresses me to see my children choosing to lie to keep from being
punished
> Even when we have stopped spanking they would lie because they
were afraid
> I would get angry.That isn't the kind of relationship I want.
> We have been very careful about our diet and haven't allowed
sugar.If we
> are at friends we allowed a soda or something like that but not
normally. I
> began to notice the little ones trying to eat all they could hold.I
tried
> getting some candy and limiting it but then they would sneak it up
to their
> room.I don't like the idea of having to watch their every move. So
this
> weekend after our ds stuffed 3 pieces of gum into his mouth and our
dd
> stuffed 4...I thought something needs to change.My first thought
was to get
> strict again but the more I thought about it I realized that wasn't
the
> answer.Hadn't worked so far. My solution ? I took the gum and
candy that
> was left and divided it up among them.Gave them their share and
said they
> were responsible for it.It was there's. I wasn't going to be buying
more for
> awhile so they could eat it all at once or make it last.It was
their choice.
> They both stood looking at me unbelieving.They asked if I wanted
them to put
> it on the counter and I said they could put it wherever they wanted
it.Our
> ds was the one sneaking things upstairs and he didn't seem to know
what to
> do.He put it on the counter and that is where it has stayed.He
knows that if
> it gets eaten up fast he won't have anymore until he buys it.We
make treats
> together like cookies and smoothies but the candy/gum is something
that they
> can buy themselves.
> Trying to get across the idea to all of them that we should treat
each
> other like we want to be treated....is going to take oodles of
time.To
> really think about how the other person feels before lashing out
with words
> or hands.After a dispute they can see that they wouldn't like
someone to do
> to them what they have just done. i hope in time it will make a
difference
> in how they react.
> Thanks for making me think!!
>
> sharon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Thomas

Pat,
I have been reading these authors and found their insights invaluable.
It was on unschooling.com that I first read of parents letting their
children really choose for themselves.At first it sounded absurd but I
couldn't stop thinking about it.Unschooling to me was no curriculum but I
have since learned it is a lifestyle.Sometimes I would really be challenged
and even bugged by what I read and couldn't get the ideas out of my mind. I
would compare what was going on in our lives with what I was reading and
what I saw in others homes.The biggest thing that stuck with me was the
respect I heard Mom's talk about.I wanted that in our family. Kids that may
play with guns,swords, knive but that were gentle with siblings and others.
That says alot to me.I have heard so much about tv. and war toys creating
aggression in kids. I read the Plug-in-drug years ago and it left me
concerned.To actually hear from families that are living it daily makes a
huge difference. It's real not out of some book from an expert.
When I shared what I have been hearing from other parents even
homeschooling parents being in charge since they are Mom/Dad ....it is no
longer me philosophy but what is around me. It has been in the past and I
still have remnants to work through.
Have you read "To train up a child" by the Pearls? They live a few hours
from here. I was given that book by a friend and others have recommended it.
I share that to say that around here it is "normal" to hear new parents tell
how they are sitting toys around on the floor and they swat babies hands
when they reach for something. Only the toy offered to them is ok to touch.
Babies/ toddlers are taught to sit on a small piece of carpet during
meetings and not get off.Or Mama carries a switch to "train" jr.
I know from experience this doesn't teach respect and create a peaceful
environment for kids. It is easy for Mom/Dad.
Have you ever listened to Naomi Aldorts tapes? I am interested but don't
know anyone that has. They are on Todlers and then another set on Children..
I think.

sharon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Thomas

Pat,
I have seen the book. Did they have limits on what they allowed their
children to experience? Or did they allow the child to choose?
I saw one book and skimmed through that the authors felt that one of the
parents job was to be a filter or protection to keep out harmful influences.
I wasn't clear if they were doing that or choosing which experiences their
children had. I do feel we are to filter out harmful influences but there is
a fine line between filtering and controlling.
At least it seems that way to me.I wasn't sure if it was the Living Joyfully
book or another one.
Any ideas since you have read the book?

sharon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

TreeGoddess

On Aug 3, 2004, at 8:50 AM, Sharon Thomas wrote:

> [Have you ever listened to Naomi Aldorts tapes? I am interested but
> don't
> know anyone that has. ]

I haven't listened to her tapes, but I would love to. I really enjoy
reading her articles in various magazines and at her web site (
http://www.naomialdort.com ).
-Tracy-

Ren

"Don't be afraid to admit anything here. We're all here to help each
other and more than happy to share info and experiences. "

Yes. Many of us have past experiences as parents we'd rather not admit to...I certainly do. I have no problem with people admitting to less than desirable parenting practices and looking for healthier solutions. I have a BIG problem when people try to defend spanking or punitive methods.

I can tell those of you trying to make the transition that it's not always an easy road to travel. You've showed your children you are not trustworthy and now you have to earn their trust back. It takes a while. Depending on how controlling you were/are it can take longer for the adjustment. I can tell you that it's SO much better when your children are your companions and can trust you to help them, not control them.
All the sugar in the world will hurt them a lot less than the emotional damage that gets inflicted when punishment or control are used.
I decided a long time ago, that their emotional health was the most important factor in a healthy life and sugar, fat etc... was WAY down on the list of potentially damagine substances. My anger was FAR more damaging.
Joy can heal a lot. Use that as your guide in deciding whether something is worth pursuing with your child. Is the choice you're making right now bringing joy to your family? If not, make a different choice.

Ren

Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

eriksmama2001

Naomi Aldort's articles in LIFE LEARNING magazine are thought
provoking and useful. I have intended to purchase the tapes several
times and have become side tracked with life. I think they would be
excellent for listening to in the car. I just found How to Talk So
Your Kids Will Listen... on CD at the library! I thought I'd listen
to it again.

I have posted on Amazon about the Pearl's book on child abuse. How
they are legally writing this is heartwrenching and repulsive from my
point of view, considering I experienced many of their "tools" in
childhood and am now estranged from my dad and distant with my mom.
Certainly, I had to seek new and healthier role models for parenting
and this is quite a challenge everytime I research and choose
differently.

I tried to do everything "perfectly" for so many years that I lived
in fear of failing. And I feared living without rules. Fear and rules
felt like the path to security and success. Unfortunatly, fear can be
paralyzing and limiting. How does one plan for every "what if..."? It
had been a struggle for me to trust anyone until my husband and then
our son came into my life. I learned that trust is the opposite of
fear. I knew that I could trust my son and had learned that I would
need to learn to trust my own judgement in parenting without external
rules.

The book The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff was eye-opening about
children's innate desire to learn and self-correct. Her observations
of cultures where children were trusted to make decisions without
interference from adults and develop judgement through learning from
their environment was novel and not fear-based living. I began
following this path for my son while he was quite young (6 months+).
I was amazed to see him flourish when all I had to do was control my
fears and trust him (certainly not easy for a controlling Type A
person though).

Over time, controlling my fears of every "what it..." and trusting
him to use his judgement became easier with experience and
observation of our "little scientist". He learned so much and so
quickly from having opportunities to try and try again. "Fail"
or "misbehave" are not concepts we embrace reguarding his actions.

And controlling my fears and trusting him became harder as his
explorations became more extensive. But, I had practiced holding my
fears in check for at least a year by then, and I had learned that I
could trust him to use his judgement and he had learned to trust my
judgement. So, we had a mutual relationship of trust. Now, my fears
only pop up when others are involved that I don't know (like
strangers in strange places).

He turned three in June, I trust him so much more than I ever
imagined I could even trust a 10 year old. He has no concept of
hiding things or dishonesty, he has no reasons to fear life. He
explores the world with vigor and self-confidence. He requests and
accepts help willingly. He is is opinionated and determined. He knows
his mind and challenges me to find common preferences when it might
be easier to just do things my way. But we are relaxed and flexible,
as I never was when I lived with fear and perfectionism.

Pat, who got melancholy about her baby growing up too fast.



--- In [email protected], "Sharon Thomas"
<meplusfive@b...> wrote:
> Pat,
> I have been reading these authors and found their insights
invaluable.
> It was on unschooling.com that I first read of parents letting their
> children really choose for themselves.At first it sounded absurd
but I
> couldn't stop thinking about it.Unschooling to me was no curriculum
but I
> have since learned it is a lifestyle.Sometimes I would really be
challenged
> and even bugged by what I read and couldn't get the ideas out of my
mind. I
> would compare what was going on in our lives with what I was
reading and
> what I saw in others homes.The biggest thing that stuck with me was
the
> respect I heard Mom's talk about.I wanted that in our family. Kids
that may
> play with guns,swords, knive but that were gentle with siblings and
others.
> That says alot to me.I have heard so much about tv. and war toys
creating
> aggression in kids. I read the Plug-in-drug years ago and it left me
> concerned.To actually hear from families that are living it daily
makes a
> huge difference. It's real not out of some book from an expert.
> When I shared what I have been hearing from other parents even
> homeschooling parents being in charge since they are Mom/Dad ....it
is no
> longer me philosophy but what is around me. It has been in the
past and I
> still have remnants to work through.
> Have you read "To train up a child" by the Pearls? They live a
few hours
> from here. I was given that book by a friend and others have
recommended it.
> I share that to say that around here it is "normal" to hear new
parents tell
> how they are sitting toys around on the floor and they swat babies
hands
> when they reach for something. Only the toy offered to them is ok
to touch.
> Babies/ toddlers are taught to sit on a small piece of carpet during
> meetings and not get off.Or Mama carries a switch to "train" jr.
> I know from experience this doesn't teach respect and create a
peaceful
> environment for kids. It is easy for Mom/Dad.
> Have you ever listened to Naomi Aldorts tapes? I am interested
but don't
> know anyone that has. They are on Todlers and then another set on
Children..
> I think.
>
> sharon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Thomas

Pat,
what you have with your little guy is what I want for my children. I see
the mistakes but want to move forward.I hope this comes across the way I
intend it. I think that most parents I know want this kind of relationship
but when they see their child having a strong opinion or being able to say
what they think, that is where the decision comes in to "make them mind." It
can be scarry to have a little child share their thoughts or want to do
something you don't think is ok.It makes adults re-evaluate everything and
that isn't comfortable. To really dig deep and find out why don't I want my
child to do this? Where is this uncomfortable feeling coming from? Why do I
feel threatened? Or even....what is a better alternative or solution? All
challenging to an adult.
I still have areas I feel uncomfortable about and am working through.
Right now it is tv. How much is enough or too much? Am I the one to say when
it is? How do I convey that a show is one I would prefer they not watch
without just saying NO? It may sound easy but habit pops in there sometimes

I can relate to the idea of having everything "perfect" including yourself
But it is so elusive. Now I want peace and joy. To enjoy my kids choices
and growth not always wanting them to do it "right" or my way. They are
really terrific kids and we have been home because I want to be with them.
What memories will I make for them and us if I am controlling everything?
thanks for the input....I have appreciated your posts. I want to keep
growing and changing not stop beating myself up for the mistakes. Been there
done that.
I hope to get the Naomi Aldort tapes and continue on learning. She has
alot to share and it seems really down to earth.

sharon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

There is a bit of "mama knows best" feeling in the book and "let
them", "allow them" type phrases. But the book Living Joyfully With
Children is so powerful in its practical messages of living with
principles rather than rules that I certainly found it to be a
resource and guide to creating a new path for my parenting. It has
been a reliable stepping stone in my journey, even if my growth in
trusting my son has surpassed their expectations and experiences (as
described at that point in their parenting) with their children. I
also know that I do know alot worth sharing with my son, but
that 'sharing with him' and 'deciding for him' are vastly different
processes.

Theauthor's children are certainly represented as opinionated and
outspoken without censure even if the final say was the
parents/authors on some moral and health issues. It seems to
represent respectful parenting, if not fully self-determining
children, at least as represented for a mainstream audience. One of
the tenets was that it is easier to see when you have given up too
much control than when you hold too much control. It has useful ideas
or perspectives if one is considering changing one's beliefs of how
much one needs to control their children.

The basic principle is "do onto others (your children) as you would
have them do onto you". Obviously, fears are a large part of why we
choose to control our children and many adults do embrace wanting
someone to decide for them so that they have a sense of security.

Helen Keller said that 'security is a superstition'.

Pat





--- In [email protected], "Sharon Thomas"
<meplusfive@b...> wrote:
> Pat,
> I have seen the book. Did they have limits on what they allowed
their
> children to experience? Or did they allow the child to choose?
> I saw one book and skimmed through that the authors felt that one
of the
> parents job was to be a filter or protection to keep out harmful
influences.
> I wasn't clear if they were doing that or choosing which
experiences their
> children had. I do feel we are to filter out harmful influences but
there is
> a fine line between filtering and controlling.
> At least it seems that way to me.I wasn't sure if it was the Living
Joyfully
> book or another one.
> Any ideas since you have read the book?
>
> sharon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lanie Carlson-Lim

Sharon,
I just finished Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen. I LOVED it! There were several AHA moments for me while I read it. I even tried somethings this week while on vacation and was amazed at how much it helped :) It's about connecting with your kids through play and how when they are acting out you need to see past the behavior to what their real issue may be and help them deal with it through play and connection.

Lanie



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