Su
Lorrie
I don't think parents suddenly start forbidding dating following 13
years of otherwise being completely respectful and trusting. I don't
think teenage girls sneak around on their parents if they've learned
to trust their parents and their parents' judgement.
I doubt that it was a sudden decision. Most parents that care about their children have an age set that that tell their kids they can start dating. Do you seriously think that it was fine for a 13 (at the start of it) year old girl to be dating an 18 year old boy/man? I have always talked with my daughter very openly about dating and she knew that I preferred that she wait until she was at last 16. She met the boy she is with now two years ago, and after meeting him, and seeing that she was mature enough to handle a relationship, I did "ALLOW" her to start seeing him.
I will concede that controlling parents can be entirely well-
intentioned. But they are not building trust; they are not
communicating respect; they are not being people their children can
respect and whose judgment their children trust.
Nothing you said before all this had anything to do with the girl in question's family or the way she was brought up. So why did you even bother with all that? Your situation was alot different from hers. Another person who has made the judgment that these parents were controlling. I will ask you the same question, do you really thing that telling their 13 year old daughter that they did not want her dating an 18 year old was a control issue?? I see it as loving her and caring enough to not let her date, if they felt she wasn't ready. What 13 year old girl is really mentally ready to pursue a sexual relationship? And how do you even know if the parents didn't already know that this boy wasn't stable and didn't want their daughter to be involved with him? He was part of their homeschool group, so who knows what they may have already known about him, or what they may have seen. These are thigns that no one will ever know. Judging a couple that was murdered in cold blood, and
assuming thigns about them is wrong.
I don't know about this specific family. But I see patterns. I hope
to build a relationship with my kids, who are still young children,
that will allow me to say, "I'm concerned about your boyfriend's
behavior," and that will allow them to hear that without
defensiveness. I hope they'll be able to make their own decisions,
and trust that my non-judgmental support is there when they make
mistakes--not a big "I told you so," but a safe place they can always
come to.
You see patterns?? What patterns could you possibly see in this case? Patterns from what you have read in the newspaper? Please, all of a sudden everyone is a crime expert and knows what the motives are in a crime that happened over a year ago. I am guessing that it was also wrong to convict the killer to life in jail, since he was only protecting his poor over controlled girlfriend.
Su
____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
years of otherwise being completely respectful and trusting. I don't
think teenage girls sneak around on their parents if they've learned
to trust their parents and their parents' judgement.
I doubt that it was a sudden decision. Most parents that care about their children have an age set that that tell their kids they can start dating. Do you seriously think that it was fine for a 13 (at the start of it) year old girl to be dating an 18 year old boy/man? I have always talked with my daughter very openly about dating and she knew that I preferred that she wait until she was at last 16. She met the boy she is with now two years ago, and after meeting him, and seeing that she was mature enough to handle a relationship, I did "ALLOW" her to start seeing him.
I will concede that controlling parents can be entirely well-
intentioned. But they are not building trust; they are not
communicating respect; they are not being people their children can
respect and whose judgment their children trust.
Nothing you said before all this had anything to do with the girl in question's family or the way she was brought up. So why did you even bother with all that? Your situation was alot different from hers. Another person who has made the judgment that these parents were controlling. I will ask you the same question, do you really thing that telling their 13 year old daughter that they did not want her dating an 18 year old was a control issue?? I see it as loving her and caring enough to not let her date, if they felt she wasn't ready. What 13 year old girl is really mentally ready to pursue a sexual relationship? And how do you even know if the parents didn't already know that this boy wasn't stable and didn't want their daughter to be involved with him? He was part of their homeschool group, so who knows what they may have already known about him, or what they may have seen. These are thigns that no one will ever know. Judging a couple that was murdered in cold blood, and
assuming thigns about them is wrong.
I don't know about this specific family. But I see patterns. I hope
to build a relationship with my kids, who are still young children,
that will allow me to say, "I'm concerned about your boyfriend's
behavior," and that will allow them to hear that without
defensiveness. I hope they'll be able to make their own decisions,
and trust that my non-judgmental support is there when they make
mistakes--not a big "I told you so," but a safe place they can always
come to.
You see patterns?? What patterns could you possibly see in this case? Patterns from what you have read in the newspaper? Please, all of a sudden everyone is a crime expert and knows what the motives are in a crime that happened over a year ago. I am guessing that it was also wrong to convict the killer to life in jail, since he was only protecting his poor over controlled girlfriend.
Su
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Lorrie <iamhisservant4ever@...>
I doubt that it was a sudden decision. Most parents that care about
their
children have an age set that that tell their kids they can start
dating.
-=-=-=-=-
I'd hope it weren't a "set age" but rather when the child was ready.
-=-=-=-=
Do you seriously think that it was fine for a 13 (at the start of it)
year old girl to
be dating an 18 year old boy/man?
-=-=-=-=
So he was 17 at the start of it?
I'd be asking her what she found interesting about him. What interests
do they share?
I'd invite him over often for supper. She and I would talk a lot about
him and his interests and what she loves about him.
-=-=-=-=-
I have always talked with my daughter very openly about dating and she
knew that I
preferred that she wait until she was at last 16.
-=-=-=-=-
You preferred or demanded?
What if she had decided that she was ready at 14?
-=-=-=-=-
She met the boy she is with now two years ago, and after meeting him,
and seeing that she was mature enough to handle a relationship, I did
"ALLOW"
her to start seeing him.
-=-=--=-
Why couldn't she "see" him before 16? And how does one judge how well
another can handle a situtaion if she's never *been* in that situation
before?
-=-=-=-=-
Another person who has made the
judgment that these parents were controlling. I will ask you the same
question,
do you really thing that telling their 13 year old daughter that they
did not
want her dating an 18 year old was a control issue??
-=-==-
Uh huh. What were her options then? They didn't trust her, so they
forbade it. So what's she supposed to do then?
She can't talk with them about it because they won't listen to her. So
she sneaks and lies. They forbid more, so she has even fewer options.
That doesn'tlead anywhere good!
-=-=-=-=-
I see it as loving her and
caring enough to not let her date, if they felt she wasn't ready.
-=-=-=-=
I'd see it loving and caring if they would get to kow the youngman and
taak with her about him and believe her when she says she's in love and
iclude him as part of the family. I'd see it as loving and caring if,
when/if he did break her heart, to hold her and talk with her and
understand what it was like with young love and how much it hurt. I'd
see it as loving and caring to help her with the next love and hope
that she learned a few things about relationships with each one she has.
-=-=-=-=-
And how do you even know if the parents didn't already know that this
boy wasn't stable and
didn't want their daughter to be involved with him? He was part of
their
homeschool group, so who knows what they may have already known about
him, or
what they may have seen. These are thigns that no one will ever know.
Judging a
couple that was murdered in cold blood, and assuming thigns about them
is wrong.
-=-=-=-=
How do you know he wasn't also equally controlled? We know they didn't
want her involved with him---they kept her from him (well, they
*tried*!).
I can certainly make assumptions based on what few facts you have
shared with us.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You see patterns?? What patterns could you possibly see in this case?
Patterns
from what you have read in the newspaper? Please, all of a sudden
everyone is a
crime expert and knows what the motives are in a crime that happened
over a year
ago. I am guessing that it was also wrong to convict the killer to life
in jail,
since he was only protecting his poor over controlled girlfriend.
-=-=-=-
No, but we're seeing patterns of control and coercion. Those parental
patterns often (almost always) lead to the patterns of lying and
sneaking to avoid punishment. Too much control and punishment can lead
to the child's rebellion ('cause who likes to be controlled?) and
possibly running away---or worse.
I'm guessing he did not have anyone in *his* lilfe, either, whom he
could talk with and discuss possible options with. He made a *VERY* bad
BIG decision---probably because he'd never been able to make smaller
decisions with input from caring, loving adults.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: Lorrie <iamhisservant4ever@...>
I doubt that it was a sudden decision. Most parents that care about
their
children have an age set that that tell their kids they can start
dating.
-=-=-=-=-
I'd hope it weren't a "set age" but rather when the child was ready.
-=-=-=-=
Do you seriously think that it was fine for a 13 (at the start of it)
year old girl to
be dating an 18 year old boy/man?
-=-=-=-=
So he was 17 at the start of it?
I'd be asking her what she found interesting about him. What interests
do they share?
I'd invite him over often for supper. She and I would talk a lot about
him and his interests and what she loves about him.
-=-=-=-=-
I have always talked with my daughter very openly about dating and she
knew that I
preferred that she wait until she was at last 16.
-=-=-=-=-
You preferred or demanded?
What if she had decided that she was ready at 14?
-=-=-=-=-
She met the boy she is with now two years ago, and after meeting him,
and seeing that she was mature enough to handle a relationship, I did
"ALLOW"
her to start seeing him.
-=-=--=-
Why couldn't she "see" him before 16? And how does one judge how well
another can handle a situtaion if she's never *been* in that situation
before?
-=-=-=-=-
Another person who has made the
judgment that these parents were controlling. I will ask you the same
question,
do you really thing that telling their 13 year old daughter that they
did not
want her dating an 18 year old was a control issue??
-=-==-
Uh huh. What were her options then? They didn't trust her, so they
forbade it. So what's she supposed to do then?
She can't talk with them about it because they won't listen to her. So
she sneaks and lies. They forbid more, so she has even fewer options.
That doesn'tlead anywhere good!
-=-=-=-=-
I see it as loving her and
caring enough to not let her date, if they felt she wasn't ready.
-=-=-=-=
I'd see it loving and caring if they would get to kow the youngman and
taak with her about him and believe her when she says she's in love and
iclude him as part of the family. I'd see it as loving and caring if,
when/if he did break her heart, to hold her and talk with her and
understand what it was like with young love and how much it hurt. I'd
see it as loving and caring to help her with the next love and hope
that she learned a few things about relationships with each one she has.
-=-=-=-=-
And how do you even know if the parents didn't already know that this
boy wasn't stable and
didn't want their daughter to be involved with him? He was part of
their
homeschool group, so who knows what they may have already known about
him, or
what they may have seen. These are thigns that no one will ever know.
Judging a
couple that was murdered in cold blood, and assuming thigns about them
is wrong.
-=-=-=-=
How do you know he wasn't also equally controlled? We know they didn't
want her involved with him---they kept her from him (well, they
*tried*!).
I can certainly make assumptions based on what few facts you have
shared with us.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You see patterns?? What patterns could you possibly see in this case?
Patterns
from what you have read in the newspaper? Please, all of a sudden
everyone is a
crime expert and knows what the motives are in a crime that happened
over a year
ago. I am guessing that it was also wrong to convict the killer to life
in jail,
since he was only protecting his poor over controlled girlfriend.
-=-=-=-
No, but we're seeing patterns of control and coercion. Those parental
patterns often (almost always) lead to the patterns of lying and
sneaking to avoid punishment. Too much control and punishment can lead
to the child's rebellion ('cause who likes to be controlled?) and
possibly running away---or worse.
I'm guessing he did not have anyone in *his* lilfe, either, whom he
could talk with and discuss possible options with. He made a *VERY* bad
BIG decision---probably because he'd never been able to make smaller
decisions with input from caring, loving adults.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Fetteroll
On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:11 AM, Lorrie wrote:
probably blocking anyone who is totally flabbergasted at anyone who
is *seemingly* saying Yes, it's fine for a 14 yo to date an 18 yo.
It seems the only two options you're considering are forbid or allow.
And you're seeing people who aren't forbidding and picturing them
stepping back helplessly allowing a situation that seems fraught with
danger for the girl.
We're talking about a 3rd option: building up a relationship of trust
with a child, so the child knows your there to help them get what
they want in life.
You said:
Obviously I haven't met this family and you're holding onto the idea
that they did exactly as we do and their daughter killed them because
they didn't say no to an 18 yo boyfriend or she was bad and didn't
respect them enough.
Either:
1) The girl has some biochemical damage from birth or some accident
that made it difficult or impossible for her to tell right from wrong.
2) The parents weren't doing what we're doing and there was something
very broken in the relationship between the daughter and parents that
would allow her to think that killing her parents was a reasonable
option.
It's *much* too easy to see someone who as done something bad as just
a bad person. They're defective, not like us, and that's what lets
them do horrible things.
People who are biochemically damaged *are* different. But they aren't
"bad" any more than a person with spinal cord injury is bad for not
walking. A fetal alcohol damaged person can't think like a whole
person. Parts of their brain that are necessary to allow people to
function with each other are damaged.
But whole people don't think murder is better than other dangerous
but more socially acceptable options like running away.
Families can put up a great front for the public and hide horrible
things behind closed doors. That's not necessarily true of this
family, *but* there was something very broken in the relationship for
a healthy child to think murdering her parents was okay.
Think about it. Really think about it. What would cause you to
murder? Someone threatening your children? It would have to be
something really hugely threatening to overcome all the social and
psychological barriers that say murder is wrong.
What in the world was going on with the girl behind closed doors that
allowed her to think murder was a better option than any other to get
her out of the horrible situation?
Whole people don't murder unless they're pushed to extreme limits, to
the point where they believe they have no other option in the world.
Parenting isn't a crap shoot. There's more to parenting than "doing
the best we can and hoping for the best." When we build trusting
relationships with our kids they will see us as a resource for when
they're facing hard decisions and when they're in a bind. When we
don't put up barriers, when they know we'll help them without
judgement, there isn't a reason they won't come to us for advice and
help when they're in trouble.
And there are far fewer reasons to get in trouble when kids know
we'll help them explore the world. Unschooled kids don't need to test
themselves to see if they really can do what their parents doubt they
can when their parents are confident that they can do anything they
put their minds to, and the parents are willing to help.
Really. It just doesn't happen. It's not that unschooled children are
saints. They *will* push their own personal boundaries. (It's what
humans do. We're always testing ourselves to see if we can do
something we once couldn't.) They will try things that we might not
want them to. But they won't turn their backs on us and seek
understanding from their friends. They won't turn to things that hurt
them to prove that they can handle them. If they're getting
understanding and acceptance at home, they don't need to go elsewhere.
Really.
could date? That's a really important question.
Because, as you've seen from lots of posts, and probably have
experienced in real life, lots and lots of parents who care and worry
and love try the technique of "No, you're not ready. You can't until
I think it's safe for you," and it's turned out very very badly.
Why? Why does the seemingly exact same technique work wonderfully for
you and turn out bad for others?
The answer is: relationship or, in the absence of trusting
relationship, personality.
Parents *think* they can say no and that will stop the child. As
you've seen, what no does is put a roadblock between the kid and what
the kid wants. The options are: obedience, working on the parents to
remove the roadblock, sneaking around the roadblock.
I suspect your daughter accepted what you said because either one or
both: personality and the trusting relationship you've established.
How can you *make* someone respect another person?
When I meet someone I give them the benefit of the doubt that they're
probably deserving of respect. I wouldn't say I give new people
respect so much as treat them as though they deserved respect. The
more I spend time with them, the more I decide if they're worthy of
actually giving them respect or not.
How could someone *make* me respect them?
They can't. They can act in ways that show they are worth respecting.
It's really the only thing anyone can do. But there is nothing they
can do or say that will *make* me respect them. Respect is something
you earn. We earn our children's respect and trust by behaving in
ways that are worthy of respect and trust.
If my husband out of the blue said flat out no to something -- well,
my initial reaction would be "WHAT!?!" ;-) -- but if he had to run
off without explaining, I'd trust him because he's earned my trust
and respect by *being* someone I can trust and respect. But if he
used "No" as a way of loving and protecting me, he'd lose (or not
gain) my trust and respect because he wasn't trusting nor respecting me.
We can't know what happened in the family. It may have looked in
public like they did what we do. But murder is just so far away from
anything trusted and respected children would consider that there had
to either be something going on behind the doors that was very
different from their public face or the girl was very damaged
biochemically.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> do you really thing that telling their 13 year old daughter thatI think this is a really important point. It's the point that is
> they did not want her dating an 18 year old was a control issue?? I
> see it as loving her and caring enough to not let her date, if they
> felt she wasn't ready.
probably blocking anyone who is totally flabbergasted at anyone who
is *seemingly* saying Yes, it's fine for a 14 yo to date an 18 yo.
It seems the only two options you're considering are forbid or allow.
And you're seeing people who aren't forbidding and picturing them
stepping back helplessly allowing a situation that seems fraught with
danger for the girl.
We're talking about a 3rd option: building up a relationship of trust
with a child, so the child knows your there to help them get what
they want in life.
You said:
> Probably because we live in a "feel good" generation, where allThis honestly doesn't characterize our unschooled children.
> alot of people want is to feel good regardless of the consequences
> or if what they are doing is harmful or not.
Obviously I haven't met this family and you're holding onto the idea
that they did exactly as we do and their daughter killed them because
they didn't say no to an 18 yo boyfriend or she was bad and didn't
respect them enough.
Either:
1) The girl has some biochemical damage from birth or some accident
that made it difficult or impossible for her to tell right from wrong.
2) The parents weren't doing what we're doing and there was something
very broken in the relationship between the daughter and parents that
would allow her to think that killing her parents was a reasonable
option.
It's *much* too easy to see someone who as done something bad as just
a bad person. They're defective, not like us, and that's what lets
them do horrible things.
People who are biochemically damaged *are* different. But they aren't
"bad" any more than a person with spinal cord injury is bad for not
walking. A fetal alcohol damaged person can't think like a whole
person. Parts of their brain that are necessary to allow people to
function with each other are damaged.
But whole people don't think murder is better than other dangerous
but more socially acceptable options like running away.
Families can put up a great front for the public and hide horrible
things behind closed doors. That's not necessarily true of this
family, *but* there was something very broken in the relationship for
a healthy child to think murdering her parents was okay.
Think about it. Really think about it. What would cause you to
murder? Someone threatening your children? It would have to be
something really hugely threatening to overcome all the social and
psychological barriers that say murder is wrong.
What in the world was going on with the girl behind closed doors that
allowed her to think murder was a better option than any other to get
her out of the horrible situation?
Whole people don't murder unless they're pushed to extreme limits, to
the point where they believe they have no other option in the world.
Parenting isn't a crap shoot. There's more to parenting than "doing
the best we can and hoping for the best." When we build trusting
relationships with our kids they will see us as a resource for when
they're facing hard decisions and when they're in a bind. When we
don't put up barriers, when they know we'll help them without
judgement, there isn't a reason they won't come to us for advice and
help when they're in trouble.
And there are far fewer reasons to get in trouble when kids know
we'll help them explore the world. Unschooled kids don't need to test
themselves to see if they really can do what their parents doubt they
can when their parents are confident that they can do anything they
put their minds to, and the parents are willing to help.
Really. It just doesn't happen. It's not that unschooled children are
saints. They *will* push their own personal boundaries. (It's what
humans do. We're always testing ourselves to see if we can do
something we once couldn't.) They will try things that we might not
want them to. But they won't turn their backs on us and seek
understanding from their friends. They won't turn to things that hurt
them to prove that they can handle them. If they're getting
understanding and acceptance at home, they don't need to go elsewhere.
Really.
> She met the boy she is with now two years ago, and after meetingAnd why do you think your daughter allowed you to decide when she
> him, and seeing that she was mature enough to handle a
> relationship, I did "ALLOW" her to start seeing him.
could date? That's a really important question.
Because, as you've seen from lots of posts, and probably have
experienced in real life, lots and lots of parents who care and worry
and love try the technique of "No, you're not ready. You can't until
I think it's safe for you," and it's turned out very very badly.
Why? Why does the seemingly exact same technique work wonderfully for
you and turn out bad for others?
The answer is: relationship or, in the absence of trusting
relationship, personality.
Parents *think* they can say no and that will stop the child. As
you've seen, what no does is put a roadblock between the kid and what
the kid wants. The options are: obedience, working on the parents to
remove the roadblock, sneaking around the roadblock.
I suspect your daughter accepted what you said because either one or
both: personality and the trusting relationship you've established.
> What happened to them could have been avoided had their daughterThis is also a very important point.
> respected them, and respected their wishes.
> All you talk about is respecting your children, what about their
> respecting their parent. Does that suddenly not matter?
How can you *make* someone respect another person?
When I meet someone I give them the benefit of the doubt that they're
probably deserving of respect. I wouldn't say I give new people
respect so much as treat them as though they deserved respect. The
more I spend time with them, the more I decide if they're worthy of
actually giving them respect or not.
How could someone *make* me respect them?
They can't. They can act in ways that show they are worth respecting.
It's really the only thing anyone can do. But there is nothing they
can do or say that will *make* me respect them. Respect is something
you earn. We earn our children's respect and trust by behaving in
ways that are worthy of respect and trust.
If my husband out of the blue said flat out no to something -- well,
my initial reaction would be "WHAT!?!" ;-) -- but if he had to run
off without explaining, I'd trust him because he's earned my trust
and respect by *being* someone I can trust and respect. But if he
used "No" as a way of loving and protecting me, he'd lose (or not
gain) my trust and respect because he wasn't trusting nor respecting me.
We can't know what happened in the family. It may have looked in
public like they did what we do. But murder is just so far away from
anything trusted and respected children would consider that there had
to either be something going on behind the doors that was very
different from their public face or the girl was very damaged
biochemically.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]