Bekki Kirby

I have been lurking here for quite a while... sometimes not even reading the
digests... then getting curious again. Well, I'm finally ready to ask a
question. I have hesitated, I suppose, out of "fear" that you'll make me
CHANGE. (oh, no, not that!)

I have two kids- 8 1/2 and 2. Neither have ever been to school of any
sort... I don't even have a babysitter. I vaguely tried some school workish
stuff when my daughter was 4-5, but it never really came together and I was
ok with that. I did briefly devise an awesome "curriculum" based on
Hogwarts stuff, but I was way more interested in it than my daughter was,
so... I gave up. She had just acquired a Leapster at that point and spent
entire days playing on it.
It was fairly easy for me to trust the unschooling process because she
taught herself to read via LeapPad Phonics, all at her own interest and
pace, at the tender age of 4. My family and in-laws were amazed and wanted
to know how I'd taught her to read so young... they glazed over when I told
them I hadn't taught her anything.

But now I don't think I'm doing enough, actually. I think I fall into the
"benign neglect" category, and I don't know what to DO about it.

I have excuses for fading into this... but I won't delve into them here.

My daughter probably has Asperger's. I've not bothered to have her
diagnosed, because I don't see the point of it, but it runs rampant in my
side of the family and she shows many of the signs. She seems to LIKE being
left to do her own thing. But she also doesn't seem to have much in common
with the typical (if there is such a thing) unschooled kid. She doesn't
have a love of learning. She isn't curious and exploring and greedily
sucking up knowledge. She spends her days watching movies over and over and
over, playing on Furry Paws or Pony Island (online games where you breed and
care for animals), and occasionally wandering the neighborhood. New stuff
just doesn't interest her. Maybe she's doing great and I just don't see
it. She's VERY secure in who she is... almost too much... she has a set
list of things she likes and anything else isn't interesting. Not sure if
I'm making sense... I'll move on.

She and I lead rather parallel lives... it's hard for me to interact with
her. I am realizing that I have an auditory disorder of some sort... I have
difficulty understanding things I hear. She has an unusual tempo of speech,
cannot speak while standing still, and loves to tell endless stories about
ponies and magical creatures and cats and.... I can't understand much of
what she says. So I get bored. And go do something else. She refuses to
write her stories down or type them, I can't understand what she says when
she's in her Story Mode, so we are left with no good way to communicate.
So we generally ignore each other most of the day.
This doesn't seem like "strewing" or a "rich environment."

Another challenge is my 2-yo. He is exceptionally energetic, intense,
challenging, etc. So my daughter gets shortchanged a lot, while I take care
of my son's needs.

That's probably just an excuse, though. Many families have more than one
kid and manage to live happy, connected lives.

Ok, I will get to my point- I want us to learn more together. I want us to
DO more together. But I don't know that my daughter would respond well to
it. It's hard to have a deep conversation with her... questions of any sort
generally confuse her. She has to be in the perfect right mood to be able
to converse. I know that's rather strange, but... that's who she is. If I
sat her down and said "Honey, would you like to DO more things together?"
she'd probably start muttering, say "I don't know", or start telling me a
pony story.

So, how do I connect after "just living together" for so long?

I'll include one more detail that keeps popping into my mind, that I suppose
might be part of the problem. I don't think she TRUSTS me. Her dad and I
didn't get married until she was 3. Until that time she hadn't seen him and
we lived with my mom. My mom and daughter are VERY close... they "get" each
other and have a lot in common. We moved 1000 miles away from my mom when I
got married. I don't know what my daughter thought about that, because she
was a very late talker, but she HATES her dad. Still. Maybe in her mind
Dad = No Grandma or something, but she has absolutely no connection to her
dad and used to tell me how much she wanted me to divorce him. (I am 100%
certain there is no abuse going on, by the way.) I feel like she thinks I'm
choosing him over her, and that's a big wall between us.

Alright, I think this is long enough now. Do what you all do so well... ask
me questions, bring out the bright and glaring light of truth... I know it
won't be comfortable, and I'm ok with that. :-)

Bekki


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Sylvia Toyama

My daughter probably has Asperger's. I've not bothered to have her diagnosed, because I don't see the point of it..... She seems to LIKE being left to do her own thing.

****
I've known lots of folks without Apergers -- or any other 'syndrome' -- who like to be alone, who need to be alone. Maybe she's just an introvert. Nothing wrong with that.

*****
But she also doesn't seem to have much in common with the typical (if there is such a thing) unschooled kid. She doesn't have a love of learning.

*****
Can you describe this typical unschooled kid who has a love of learning? Does it look the same in every kid? <g>

*****
She isn't curious and exploring and greedily sucking up knowledge. She spends her days watching movies over and over and over, playing on Furry Paws or Pony Island (online games where you breed and care for animals), and occasionally wandering the neighborhood.

*****
Is she advancing to higher levels in those online games? Is she taking on new kinds of animals, ones with different traits, abilities, or characteristics within the game? I can't think of an online or video game my boys play that doesn't involve increased strategy or more challenges for higher levels, and the introduction of new ideas as play progresses. That is learning new things!

****
New stuff just doesn't interest her.

*****
Maybe new stuff you've introduced doesn't do it for her, but I'll bet she is learning new things and finding more every day that she'd like to learn. I know that it may look like my boys are just playing with the same old legos day after day. Then one or the other (or both!) will bring out his newest lego design gadget to show us, and I can see what they've been creating --trucks, buildings, motors, all kinds of new things.

*****
Maybe she's doing great and I just don't see it. She's VERY secure in who she is... almost too much... she has a set list of things she likes and anything else isn't interesting. Not sure if I'm making sense... I'll move on.

******
Can you find the time to just be with her, seeing what really does speak to her interests? Ask her what animals she's raising up on Furry Paws -- what kind, color, abilities, how many, why those particular ones? Listen to her answers, not for whether they're something you can categorize as learning, but just as a window into what she loves.

I agree it can be hard with two kids, especially when the younger one is very demanding of our time and energy. Maybe a mother's helper could spend time with your son for a few hours a couple of times a week. With summer vacation, now might be a good time to find a willing young teenager to spend some time. Or could your husband spend some one-on-one time with your son, to make time for you and your daughter to be together?

Sylvia


---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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Deb Lewis

*** She doesn't
have a love of learning. She isn't curious and exploring and greedily
sucking up knowledge. She spends her days watching movies over and over and
over, playing on Furry Paws or Pony Island (online games where you breed and
care for animals), and occasionally wandering the neighborhood. ***

Your example of what she does during the day *IS* an example of love of
learning and greedy sucking of knowledge. <g>
She's learning all the time.

***New stuff just doesn't interest her. ***

When you say new stuff, what do you mean? What do you offer? Are you
offering things *you* think she should be interested in, or are you
expanding on and adding to what you already know she likes.

If she likes certain movies, see if there are action figures of those
characters. Maybe there are coloring books of those characters, puzzles,
fuzzy posters, stickers. If the characters do certain things, (are they
wizards, fairies, witches?) maybe you could get her the props to do those
things too: A magic wand, crystal ball, fairy wings, etc. If she likes
stories about cats, find more cat movies. If she likes all kinds of
critters find critter movies. Get her magazines about cats or horses or
whatever. Find funny animal videos on line and share them with her. Google
"pet stories" and print them and read them to her. Print out cute pictures
of cats and dogs and Guinea pigs and rabbits and let her wallpaper her room
with them. If she likes animals and likes to be around them go to pet
stores and dog shows and cat shows or visit a kennel.

***She's VERY secure in who she is...***

That's good!

***almost too much...***

Not possible! <g>

*** she has a set list of things she likes and anything else isn't
interesting. ***

It kind of sounds like what you mean here is she's not doing stuff you want
her to do. It really is ok for people, especially people who are eight, to
do what *they* want to do. <g> It's really natural for kids (especially)
to do the same things for a long time before adding new things to their
lives. Humans have a need to be comfortable before they take more on, and
the way we get comfortable is through immersion. What you describe is very
normal. Lots of adults have their own interests and are not looking for
more. Think about your own life. How much do you go out of your way to
become interested in new things?
I think some people are naturally curious and are always getting into
something new. Others are not. But before we come to any conclusions about
why our kids are the way they are we should examine our selves a little and
see if our own choices and preferences are really that much different from
our kid's choices and preferences.

***She has an unusual tempo of speech,
cannot speak while standing still, and loves to tell endless stories about
ponies and magical creatures and cats and....***

She sounds like my son at that age. He told so many stories and they were
very involved. I really had to pay attention to remember all the characters
and the ways their story line intersected other characters. Sometimes he
wanted me to be a certain character and act out certain parts.

***I am realizing that I have an auditory disorder of some sort***
***I can't understand much of
what she says. So I get bored. And go do something else. ***

I think you're making excuses. Probably every mom of a talkative,
imaginative kid has zoned out. That's not a disorder that's an adult brain
that isn't as freshly wired for imaginative play as a kid brain.

But you really should pay attention to her stories, be attentive, even if
you zone out sometimes, work at being interested. How would it feel if you
were trying to talk to your partner about something you found interesting or
important and your partner wandered off to do something else?

***I can't understand what she says when
she's in her Story Mode, so we are left with no good way to communicate.***

Sit down and really focus on her while she tells the story. Watch her pace
and twirl and hop and crawl. If you really focus on her two things will
happen. One, you'll see how much joy her stories bring her, which will fill
you with joy too, and two, you'll begin to absorb the story in more ways
than just audio. Watch and listen. After awhile you'll realize you're
understanding more than you thought and the things you don't understand you
can ask about. I would sometimes say, "Wait, wait, wait how did he get on
the rock again?" And Dylan would explain that part to me. My son was a
very active story teller. He used to climb onto the washing machine and
jump off, spin on his knees on the floor, run and pace and hop. He would
crawl under a box and keep talking the whole time. He used a lot of sound
effects. There's an enormous amount of energy in those stories. They're
really worth paying attention to! <g>

***She refuses to
write her stories down or type them,***

It's really not her responsibility to entertain you, or do things your way,
or to help you understand her. It's *your* responsibility to find ways to
understand her and to make her world interesting for her. Right now that
means being a good audience for her stories.

***So we generally ignore each other most of the day.
This doesn't seem like "strewing" or a "rich environment."***

Have you tried recording her stories? I have recordings of Dylan and
they're so much fun. In one story he's a reporter covering an attack on
Tokyo by Godzilla. Some of the story is inaudible because he was zooming
all around while telling it, but most of it is there and it was fun to
record and now it's fun to hear all those stories again.

***If I sat her down and said "Honey, would you like to DO more things
together?"
she'd probably start muttering, say "I don't know", or start telling me a
pony story.***

This is really all the information you need. -Listen to her stories. - Do
what *she* wants. Don't try to make her do what you want. Do what she
wants. Be her audience. That's how you connect; by getting into her world.
If she is coming to you with a story she is trying to connect with you.
The problem isn't your daughter, or the way she talks, or anything else, the
problem is you're not listening to her.

Dylan drew lots of pictures of his different story characters and we still
pull those pictures out sometimes and talk about them. He remembers all
those characters and I can say "Do you remember when Soozee thought the
dynamite was a firecracker and tossed it in Joey's bedroom window?"
(Soozee and Joey were mice, Soozee had a pearl head corsage pin for a
sword.<g>)

Does she draw pictures of her characters? You could hang them around the
house.

I wrote pages and pages of notes about Dylan's story telling and stories.
I remember those days so fondly and I sort of suspect some of his characters
will make it into a book one day, they were all so well developed. One
character was based on our huge Siamese cat, Zoey. We call her Zooz. Her
story line was called "Bad News, It's Zooz!" <g> Zoey is twenty pounds of
Siamese attitude and she has a bizarre fuzzy black Hitler mustache that
makes her look especially comical. I would write down funny quotes from his
characters and tape them to the cupboards and fridge and Dylan enjoyed
seeing them there.

If Dylan was asleep and Zoey did something funny, when he woke up I would
tell him the story about what Zoe had done. I would try to make it as funny
as I could and it would inspire new stories about Zooz.

But it *is* hard to always pay attention to a long story. You'll get better
at it. <g> I didn't have another child but there were pets to take care
of and house work and garden and other things I liked or wanted to do. It
might not be easy for you to focus on her but as much as possible you should
do it. Your two year old might really like to be with you and sister while
your older child is telling a very active and energetic story.

Deb Lewis

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Bekki Kirby"
<junegoddess@...> wrote:
> She seems to LIKE being
> left to do her own thing.

Some people are like that. If I didn't have kids, I'd spend most of
my time in my workshop. Used to be, I'd forget to eat and work until
I passed out. George is very similar to me, but had his first kid at
a much younger age, so didn't get to indulge as much.

> But she also doesn't seem to have much in common
> with the typical (if there is such a thing) unschooled kid. She
doesn't
> have a love of learning. She isn't curious and exploring and
greedily
> sucking up knowledge. She spends her days watching movies over
and over and
> over, playing on Furry Paws or Pony Island (online games where you
breed and
> care for animals), and occasionally wandering the neighborhood.
New stuff
> just doesn't interest her.

It seems to me that you aren't connecting with the ways she learns
best. Doing something over and over sounds pretty passionate to me.
This:

> loves to tell endless stories about
> ponies and magical creatures and cats and....

...makes me think she's getting a whole lot out of those movies and
games and trying to share it with you. Its not that *she* has no
love of learning - or that she's necessarily lacking the tools she
needs to learn what she wants. With one big exception:

>I have
> difficulty understanding things I hear. She has an unusual tempo
of speech,
> cannot speak while standing still, and loves to tell endless
stories about
> ponies and magical creatures and cats and.... I can't understand
much of
> what she says. So I get bored. And go do something else.

Yikes! You walk away from your kid when she's trying to tell you
what's going on in her life? When she's bouncing with enthusiasm?
Ouch.

> She refuses to
> write her stories down or type them, I can't understand what she
says when
> she's in her Story Mode, so we are left with no good way to
communicate.

Listen anyway. Get a tape recorder and record her while you are
listening (don't say "tell it to the tape" - keep listening, its
important!). If you can't figure out what she's saying on the tape
(and you might, without the visual input to juggle at the same time)
see if someone else you know can understand it well enough to
transcribe it, so you can read it and connect with her that way.

> It's hard to have a deep conversation with her... questions of any
sort
> generally confuse her. She has to be in the perfect right mood to
be able
> to converse. I know that's rather strange, but... that's who she
is.

It doesn't sound all that strange to me. She may be verbal but not
very social - so she can talk, can tell stories, maybe even has a
big vocabulary, but can't necessarily connect with other people
verbally in terms of conversation. Its also possible she's not
terribly "self aware" in ways that can be expressed verbally - so if
you ask "what do you want" she'll say "I don't know" but if you give
her the space and resources to do what she wants, she's good at
figuring out what it is she's wanting to do.

Some of that may be personality/ learning styles. Some may well be
what's called "asynchronous development" where a kid learns one set
of skills faster than others. The only real *problem* with that is
that adults develop expectations of kids, in particular, based on
just one set of skills - typically verbal skills. So a child who has
a big vocabulary is "supposed" to be able to handle more mature
situations and challenges.

We run into that problem all the time with Ray. He's really verbal
and outgoing, but his interpersonal skills haven't been as advanced
as his vocabulary and enthusiasm (although they're catching up).
Even George and I have to stop and remind ourselves ....hey, he's
just a kid!

> If I
> sat her down and said "Honey, would you like to DO more things
together?"
> she'd probably start muttering, say "I don't know", or start
telling me a
> pony story.

Start listening to those stories!!!!

Are there times when you can sit and watch her play the games or
watch a movie with her? Instead of trying to get her to do what you
want, connect with her passions. Is there a time you can go online
yourself and play one of her games? Would she like that? Y'all could
talk about your ponies together. At the least you'd have more
information and be better able to understand her stories.

Ray loves Runescape, which is an online d&d type game. George and I
have both played just enough that we can understand him when he
talks about it, rather than being so lost we glaze over. We have a
couple other computer games (not online) that Ray and I have played
all the way through - that's been challenging for me, bc Ray loves
to talk about what he's doing and can't seem to help giving me
details I'd rather find out on my own. We've talked about different
learning styles, but mostly I just tell myself: its a game! and
listen to him enthuse about the battle he just fought with Badguy
Xyz to unlock portal Jkl - even though he's giving away the plot in
the process. Those conversations are really really important to Ray.
They are how he's connecting with us right now.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Robyn

--- In [email protected], "Bekki Kirby"
<junegoddess@...> wrote:

>
> I'll include one more detail that keeps popping into my mind, that I
suppose
> might be part of the problem. I don't think she TRUSTS me. Her dad
and I
> didn't get married until she was 3. Until that time she hadn't seen
him and
> we lived with my mom. My mom and daughter are VERY close... they
"get" each
> other and have a lot in common. We moved 1000 miles away from my
mom when I
> got married. I don't know what my daughter thought about that,
because she
> was a very late talker, but she HATES her dad. Still. Maybe in her
mind
> Dad = No Grandma or something, but she has absolutely no connection
to her
> dad and used to tell me how much she wanted me to divorce him. (I
am 100%
> certain there is no abuse going on, by the way.) I feel like she
thinks I'm
> choosing him over her, and that's a big wall between us.
>
> Alright, I think this is long enough now. Do what you all do so
well... ask
> me questions, bring out the bright and glaring light of truth... I
know it
> won't be comfortable, and I'm ok with that. :-)
>
> Bekki


I wanted to comment on these statements because I am new to
unschooling and really cant add to much to your other questions..
Yet!! But this hit close to home for me. I had my ODS Nate when I
was 19 years old.. His Bio-father and I stopped seeing each other when
he was one.. We never lived together.. I lived with my mom and my aunt.

I put myself through school and would have my aunt watch my son during
the day while I was at school.. They became very close and dependent
on each other. For a lot of reasons. I can talk to you about them
more one on one because it can get very lengthy. When I finished
school I went to work and my mom would watch him at night while I
worked over night. Nate was very sick. He has an immature system.
(a lot of stuff that didnt work right). So he became very close and
dependent on my mom and my aunt.

Well when my husband and I moved in together and Nate came with me (of
course) he did not handle it well at all.. He claimed to HATE!!!! me
and HATE!!!!!!!! Kheled. I mean it was very stressful on us as a
family.. I never gave in and allowed him to live with my mom. I
wanted him to be with us.. It took a long time and attention but we
are a close knit family now. I showed him that we loved him and would
be there for him through all his pain and scary times.. All his happy
and joyful times too.. When he wanted to visit my mom he was allowed to.

I think there is some healing that still needs to be done for her..
Does her father make an effort despite her claims of hating him to
interact with her.. Does he tell her that no matter what she says he
loves her and will always love her. That he is never going to leave
her. That he exists to love her.

This is what worked for us.

Huge Hugs!!!!
Robyn

Meredith

> --- In [email protected], "Bekki Kirby"
> <junegoddess@> wrote:
> We moved 1000 miles away from my
> mom when I
> > got married. I don't know what my daughter thought about that,
> because she
> > was a very late talker

She needed to grieve. That may sound strange from *your*
perspective - you were a family! It was exciting and wonderful! But
from your dd's perspective, she had just lost part of her family -
has she had any support at all to grieve that loss?

<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
>> I think there is some healing that still needs to be done for
her..
> Does her father make an effort despite her claims of hating him to
> interact with her.. Does he tell her that no matter what she says
he
> loves her and will always love her. That he is never going to
leave
> her. That he exists to love her.

This is important, too, as long as y'all aren't seeing the
relationship as a substitute for grandma (or worse that grandma was
the substitute for a "real dad"). I'm so glad Robyn brought this
back up, it really helped me see some parallels between the
situation described and a divorce/re-marriage. As a stepmom, I can't
ever be Ray's mom - I have to have a completely different *kind* of
relationship with him, even though I'm taking on some of the same
roles. That's tricky. Lots of delicate emotions from all sides.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Deborah Greenspan

I am usually a lurker, too. I do this because I'm afraid to speak. I will
say something now because I think it's that important.

I was a child who used to tell stories. I had no one to really listen and
get excited with me about them. My mother found it extremely difficult to
sit and listen. She also had to move as I spoke. She walked-away. She said
to follow her as she did things around the house. My dad invited me to read
my stories to him when I wrote them. He said he liked them-they helped him
sleep.

I think I had a different learning style than either parent, but as a child
I felt rejected. I think it might be easier for me to communicate now,
decades later, if I felt listened to then. Thanks for reminding me about my
important role which may not be easy for me to see or do.

As a parent, I struggle as my parents did. I forget how to stop and listen,
and give full respectful attention to my children. I also feel pulled in
different directions by my two children. I ask for "mommy days" to be by
myself, or with one child for special attentive "mommy-daughter" time, while
the other child is at a friend's house or with her dad. This has helped me
replenish and reconnect.

I also plan field trips so we can see others successful and passionate about
what each child is passionate about. Going on field trips has helped me
reconnect and regain my daughters' trust-trust that I would honor each
daughter's passion and respect their values.

I hope this helps.

Deborah :-)




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