earthmothergypsy

This was a topic I was going to ask questions about awhile back and
didn't get time to do it. Now that the subject has come up, I am
wondering just how many unschoolers have large families?

It seems that the large families are being raised in a way that isn't
peaceful, respectful, and are very heavy handed. So what type of
generation of kids are we going to be dealing with if there are only
a few unschooling, respectful families and a LOT of families being
raised in a "not so good way", iykwim.

That said, we have 5 children, but with a twist. lol! I have three
older kids and two younger kids, so it is like we have had two
seperate smaller families. :)

If there are any others here that have a large family with kids close
in age and unschooling, I would *LOVE* to hear how it all works for
you (if you don't mind sharing).

~Amanda

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

I feeling quite a challege at the moment with my son and am looking for any
input from those who have been there. He was a high need infant who has
flourished with co-sleeping and extended nursing. He definitely fits the
"spirited child" definition. The challenge as he is closing in on age three
and a half, is he has been having - sometimes three in one day, but more
often three or four a week - high decibel tantrums that escalate and are
difficult for me to head off or catch before they start or before he is gone
into the land of the great beyond with them. I guess I'm trying to handle
them as best I can but would appreciate any input anyone could give me on
this who has been there.

Most of the time, it seems to be about two issues: One - something he
expected to happen didn't happen - for instance, he walked into the kitchen
the other night and apparently expected a light to be on in there. There
was no light on. With no preamble, he started screaming at the top of his
lungs and crying for his daddy to turn on the light. As dad was approaching
from the other direction, I came in also to see if I could help. He
screamed at me not to touch the light, had to be dada. Knowing from
experience that if dad turns on the "wrong" light - that is, not the one
he's thinking of, it will cause this to get worse, I ask him if he can tell
me which light he wants on. He screams that he won't. I say, "well can you
tell dada then, otherwise, we're not sure which one you are wanting to be
on" and so, after screaming he won't again for a bit and screaming that no,
he doesn't want dada to just pick one either, finally, trembling with anger
he points to a light. It takes him a while to wind down from this. I'd
like to find a way to help him do something initially that is not the
screaming/crying reaction and I'm not sure how to do that ahead of time,
since it's his initial reaction and there's no chance to catch it before it
escalates - he's just escalated already. Does anyone have suggestions of
general ways that, at other times, I could help him deal with his
expectations being disappointed that might have an impact?

Second issue I can identify is a control issue - when he wants to control
something and can't. The other day he had asked to go to his cousin's house
and I was packing up the diaper bag to go. He and his sister were running
up and down the driveway while I was getting the dog inside and everything
together. As I was coming toward the front door, I heard him scream at her
"Aline, walk!" over and over. I got outside and my daughter was running
around like they usually do, but with my son standing in the middle of the
driveway, screaming and pointing at her. I went over, got down at his
level, and calmly asked him what was up. He kept screaming and got out that
he wanted his sister to "race" him one way but "walk" or slow down so that
he would get to the car from the garage first. His sister hadn't really
responded to him yet and I wasn't sure she even got his request, so after
making sure I got it, I asked him if he thought Aline liked to be asked
things with a yelling voice or a more polite voice. He lowered his voice
and asked her more calmly. She thought about it, then said "No, I just need
to run fast right now" and took off. He started screaming and shaking
again, tears running down his face, and the more she ran, the louder he
screamed. I couldn't get his attention to try to talk to him through the
screams, and I did want to try to talk to him about her reaction (although
in retrospect, he was so far gone perhaps I didn't need to do that), so I
asked my daughter if she'd stop running for a moment so I could try to talk
to Nicky. She did, but Nicky was so angry that it just made him go over to
her and start to tap her belly - like he didn't want to hit her hard, but
was so mad he just had to do something. I reminded him about using our
words, not our hands, which just increased the tantrum. I tried quietly
reminding him we were heading to his cousin's, hoping he might latch onto
that, but no dice. So I just sat on the grass while he screamed "But I want
her to walk!" at the top of his lungs for minutes on end and just nodded and
told him "yes, I hear how much you want that" and nothing else. Finally he
screamed he wanted num num on the grass - thank goodness he's still nursing.
Just as he started nursing my husband came home with our other vehicle and
started to park it at the end of the driveway behind our car. Nicky
screamed "No, dada! Don't park in the driveway! Park on the street!" My
husband had had a bad day and really didn't want to do this, but I have seen
this pattern where if my son can't control something that's really
frustrating him, he just needs to control something else and often moves on
to something else he can control to calm down, so I asked dh to park on the
street (didn't endear me to him but he got over it). My back started
hurting on the grass after a bit and I tried to move to a chair and got
"No!" from Nicky. When I described mama's hurting back, he decided mama
sitting in the seat of the car nursing him would be okay. After about 10
minutes I told him it was getting kind of late, so if he still wanted to go
to his cousin's tonight, I would like to get going. He said "okay" and
popped into his car seat. I'm wondering about decreasing these tantrums or
if there is any way to head them off or help him handle these control issues
better? Or do I just witness and be there to help till he gets older and
has more resources?

PS - I am half way through the "Difficult Child" book that Pam (I think?)
has suggested and that is somewhat helpful, but most of the models seem to
be older kids so far rather than 3 yo's.

Thanks very much,

Joan

eriksmama2001

I know that everyone makes a difference. The power of one to make
one's life better, spreads to all that we touch. Love reproduces it
self, not only biologically, but with an energy to live fully.

Pat, it's not quantity but quality.

--- In [email protected], "earthmothergypsy"
<earthmothergypsy@h...> wrote:
> This was a topic I was going to ask questions about awhile back and
> didn't get time to do it. Now that the subject has come up, I am
> wondering just how many unschoolers have large families?
>
> It seems that the large families are being raised in a way that
isn't
> peaceful, respectful, and are very heavy handed. So what type of
> generation of kids are we going to be dealing with if there are
only
> a few unschooling, respectful families and a LOT of families being
> raised in a "not so good way", iykwim.
>
> That said, we have 5 children, but with a twist. lol! I have three
> older kids and two younger kids, so it is like we have had two
> seperate smaller families. :)
>
> If there are any others here that have a large family with kids
close
> in age and unschooling, I would *LOVE* to hear how it all works for
> you (if you don't mind sharing).
>
> ~Amanda

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/31/2004 9:50:23 PM Central Standard Time,
salgenovese@... writes:

With no preamble, he started screaming at the top of his
lungs and crying for his daddy to turn on the light. As dad was approaching
from the other direction, I came in also to see if I could help. He
screamed at me not to touch the light, had to be dada.


~~~

I'm guessing your child is around 2 or 3?

I have experience being around a kid like this, very similar. (He's not
mine.) I saw one thing work with him that I though never would. It's an herbal
remedy called Rescue Remedy. I witnessed a meltdown stop *instantly* when
he got a little RR squirted on his head.

Sounds crazy the first time you hear about it. But I saw it with my own
eyes. It'd be worth a try. I think you can get it at Wild Oats and places like
that.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

Uhh. Sounds just like my three year old son and me. Only I call them
emotional releases. Sometimes one can not have everything one wants
immediatedly in life. That is frustrating for me. Sometimes I want to
scream. Sometimes I do. (Like when we were having renovation done on
our house, and they made the ceiling 8 3/4 inches too low!)

Somethings just make you lose it. It is worse if I am tired or
hungary. I know these things about myself. I have learned them
through trial and error to know that sometimes I have to wait,
sometimes I don't get exactly what I wanted, sometimes I just need to
refuel, sometimes I need to ask for help. Sometimes I don't know why
I feel out of sorts, maybe coming down with something. I don't feel
or act perfectly all the time. I try to find a pattern and learn from
it but I do excuse myself for not being perfect and try not to impact
others when I am having a hard time.

I am NOT suggesting that he tough-it-out. I just know it is hard.
Sometimes all anyone can do is to validate and empathize with
someone's frustration until the emotions are released. Then we can
become problem solvers together. I believe learning to problem solve
is a process. I did not have much support, validation or empathizing
of my feelings and frustrations as a child. I am learning this along
with my child in many ways. He is helping me to learn as I help him
to learn to try more effective ways of anticipating our needs,
communicating our needs, listening to other's needs, assisting
other's to meet their needs. These interpersonal skills must be
practiced to become known.

It sounds like you are giving your son the support, validation and
empathy that he needs to learn the process of problem solving. It is
a process. He has your help. How lucky for him to deal with these
challenges with you lovingly guiding him. As you watch for patterns
around these releases, you can share them with him.

I have found it is difficult for my son to wait to go somewhere that
he wants to go, such as the park. I have found that if I mention the
park, he wants to go NOW. There are (at least!) 10 things for me to
do before getting us in the car. So, I wait until it is time to get
in the car to tell him I am ready to go. The catch is he may be
engaged and not want to go. So, I mention things that make going
positive, etc. when I am ready. On the other hand, when he KNOWS we
are going, and I am not ready, I try to engage him, food especially
helps to making waiting easier because he is now refueled and I carry
him around and explain the things I need to do and this usually
prompts him to see something that he wants to help with or do while I
am preparing for our journey.

I also am directed by my son to sit here, wear that, do this, do
that. I try very hard not to direct him, rather to ask him. So, I
wonder where does he get this? But I know that he sees people telling
and asking others to do things and they do them. He does things when
asked (not all the time, of course). I think asking and telling are
nuances that he is learning by practice also. How does one know what
they can tell or ask someone unless they trial and error? He is
learning where does my right to control another end? Where does my
ability to control end?

I do not mind doing many of the things he tells or asks me (not so
politely yet) but I demonstrate a willingness to comply unless I
really don't want to do it or can't. I want him to similarly help
people who ask for it or to do things people tell him to do IF he
wants to. I do restate the request politely, so that he hears my
prefered way of being asked, but I do not insist that he ask politely
for me to comply. I believe the issue of willingness is as important
to convey as etiquette.

Also, when the dada or mama specific requests occur, I have found it
is a veiled need for dada's or mama's specific attention. I consider
this a message to provide more attention to his needs. By complying
he is having my availability reinforced. Then I try to intentionally
give choices, like you described "this light switch or that one", in
order to be very present and attentive. But I have found that the
escalation of his emotions ususally can be traced back to either
tired, hungary, or wanting my attention.

The challenge of course is juggling everyone's needs, including my
own. I am learning too. I explain my needs to him so that he has the
opportunity to hear that I have needs that must be met in order to be
available to him. I too have found that my emotions escalate if I am
tired, hungary or needing my attention. I do not expect him to meet
my needs, but want him to hear that they exist. I know that I must
make time to meet my needs for myself and for my family. I believe
modeling self-care is important too.

Pat



--- In [email protected], "Joan Labbe & Salvatore
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
> I feeling quite a challege at the moment with my son and am looking
for any
> input from those who have been there. He was a high need infant
who has
> flourished with co-sleeping and extended nursing. He definitely
fits the
> "spirited child" definition. The challenge as he is closing in on
age three
> and a half, is he has been having - sometimes three in one day, but
more
> often three or four a week - high decibel tantrums that escalate
and are
> difficult for me to head off or catch before they start or before
he is gone
> into the land of the great beyond with them. I guess I'm trying to
handle
> them as best I can but would appreciate any input anyone could give
me on
> this who has been there.
>
> Most of the time, it seems to be about two issues: One - something
he
> expected to happen didn't happen - for instance, he walked into the
kitchen
> the other night and apparently expected a light to be on in there.
There
> was no light on. With no preamble, he started screaming at the top
of his
> lungs and crying for his daddy to turn on the light. As dad was
approaching
> from the other direction, I came in also to see if I could help. He
> screamed at me not to touch the light, had to be dada. Knowing from
> experience that if dad turns on the "wrong" light - that is, not
the one
> he's thinking of, it will cause this to get worse, I ask him if he
can tell
> me which light he wants on. He screams that he won't. I
say, "well can you
> tell dada then, otherwise, we're not sure which one you are wanting
to be
> on" and so, after screaming he won't again for a bit and screaming
that no,
> he doesn't want dada to just pick one either, finally, trembling
with anger
> he points to a light. It takes him a while to wind down from
this. I'd
> like to find a way to help him do something initially that is not
the
> screaming/crying reaction and I'm not sure how to do that ahead of
time,
> since it's his initial reaction and there's no chance to catch it
before it
> escalates - he's just escalated already. Does anyone have
suggestions of
> general ways that, at other times, I could help him deal with his
> expectations being disappointed that might have an impact?
>
> Second issue I can identify is a control issue - when he wants to
control
> something and can't. The other day he had asked to go to his
cousin's house
> and I was packing up the diaper bag to go. He and his sister were
running
> up and down the driveway while I was getting the dog inside and
everything
> together. As I was coming toward the front door, I heard him
scream at her
> "Aline, walk!" over and over. I got outside and my daughter was
running
> around like they usually do, but with my son standing in the middle
of the
> driveway, screaming and pointing at her. I went over, got down at
his
> level, and calmly asked him what was up. He kept screaming and got
out that
> he wanted his sister to "race" him one way but "walk" or slow down
so that
> he would get to the car from the garage first. His sister hadn't
really
> responded to him yet and I wasn't sure she even got his request, so
after
> making sure I got it, I asked him if he thought Aline liked to be
asked
> things with a yelling voice or a more polite voice. He lowered his
voice
> and asked her more calmly. She thought about it, then said "No, I
just need
> to run fast right now" and took off. He started screaming and
shaking
> again, tears running down his face, and the more she ran, the
louder he
> screamed. I couldn't get his attention to try to talk to him
through the
> screams, and I did want to try to talk to him about her reaction
(although
> in retrospect, he was so far gone perhaps I didn't need to do
that), so I
> asked my daughter if she'd stop running for a moment so I could try
to talk
> to Nicky. She did, but Nicky was so angry that it just made him go
over to
> her and start to tap her belly - like he didn't want to hit her
hard, but
> was so mad he just had to do something. I reminded him about using
our
> words, not our hands, which just increased the tantrum. I tried
quietly
> reminding him we were heading to his cousin's, hoping he might
latch onto
> that, but no dice. So I just sat on the grass while he
screamed "But I want
> her to walk!" at the top of his lungs for minutes on end and just
nodded and
> told him "yes, I hear how much you want that" and nothing else.
Finally he
> screamed he wanted num num on the grass - thank goodness he's still
nursing.
> Just as he started nursing my husband came home with our other
vehicle and
> started to park it at the end of the driveway behind our car. Nicky
> screamed "No, dada! Don't park in the driveway! Park on the
street!" My
> husband had had a bad day and really didn't want to do this, but I
have seen
> this pattern where if my son can't control something that's really
> frustrating him, he just needs to control something else and often
moves on
> to something else he can control to calm down, so I asked dh to
park on the
> street (didn't endear me to him but he got over it). My back
started
> hurting on the grass after a bit and I tried to move to a chair and
got
> "No!" from Nicky. When I described mama's hurting back, he decided
mama
> sitting in the seat of the car nursing him would be okay. After
about 10
> minutes I told him it was getting kind of late, so if he still
wanted to go
> to his cousin's tonight, I would like to get going. He said "okay"
and
> popped into his car seat. I'm wondering about decreasing these
tantrums or
> if there is any way to head them off or help him handle these
control issues
> better? Or do I just witness and be there to help till he gets
older and
> has more resources?
>
> PS - I am half way through the "Difficult Child" book that Pam (I
think?)
> has suggested and that is somewhat helpful, but most of the models
seem to
> be older kids so far rather than 3 yo's.
>
> Thanks very much,
>
> Joan

eriksmama2001

Yes, we love Rescue Remedy too.

Pat
In [email protected], Tuckervill@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/31/2004 9:50:23 PM Central Standard Time,
> salgenovese@w... writes:
>
> With no preamble, he started screaming at the top of his
> lungs and crying for his daddy to turn on the light. As dad was
approaching
> from the other direction, I came in also to see if I could help.
He
> screamed at me not to touch the light, had to be dada.
>
>
> ~~~
>
> I'm guessing your child is around 2 or 3?
>
> I have experience being around a kid like this, very similar.
(He's not
> mine.) I saw one thing work with him that I though never would.
It's an herbal
> remedy called Rescue Remedy. I witnessed a meltdown stop
*instantly* when
> he got a little RR squirted on his head.
>
> Sounds crazy the first time you hear about it. But I saw it with
my own
> eyes. It'd be worth a try. I think you can get it at Wild Oats
and places like
> that.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carrol

I have recently read an excerpt from a book by Dr. Karp, author of
The Happiest Baby on the Block. The new book is The Happiest Toddler
on the block and deals with tantrums and communication. I do not know
if the entire book's contents is in line with the theories of
unschooling and AP but it seems that handling and preventing the
tantrum is.

He explains that we treat adults differently than toddlers when there
is a problem that leads to emotional distress. We show empathy toward
an adult and initially communicate our support in a very specific
language then wait for the person to calm down and switch to let's
find a solution mode in a gentle language.

He shows how to do this with toddlers by repeating to them over and
over what it is they want, usually what it is they are saying. And
then how to help them get what they want or need once they are clam.
He says it is all a matter of learning how to communicate in times of
emotional need. There is an excerpt on the website for Good Morning
America (couple of months ago so you will have to search).

I saw a video for Happiest Baby in a parenting class I had to take
(adoptive mom). We all had to give our opinion to the class. I said
it was all natural, very instinctual to me and that I saw the older
generation of my family doing this as well. The instructor replied
that I was very lucky, not everyone knew how to do this. That worries
me.

Anyway, if anyone has any opinion on this, I would like to know as I
haven't read the book yet. There is a video with real life examples
on it. I was considering this as my husband doesn't have alot of time
to read with his job.

Robin

--- In [email protected], "Joan Labbe & Salvatore
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
> I feeling quite a challege at the moment with my son and am looking
for any
> input from those who have been there. He was a high need infant
who has
> flourished with co-sleeping and extended nursing. He definitely
fits the
> "spirited child" definition. The challenge as he is closing in on
age three
> and a half, is he has been having - sometimes three in one day, but
more
> often three or four a week - high decibel tantrums that escalate
and are
> difficult for me to head off or catch before they start or before
he is gone
> into the land of the great beyond with them. I guess I'm trying to
handle
> them as best I can but would appreciate any input anyone could give
me on
> this who has been there.
>
> Most of the time, it seems to be about two issues: One - something
he
> expected to happen didn't happen - for instance, he walked into the
kitchen
> the other night and apparently expected a light to be on in there.
There
> was no light on. With no preamble, he started screaming at the top
of his
> lungs and crying for his daddy to turn on the light. As dad was
approaching
> from the other direction, I came in also to see if I could help. He
> screamed at me not to touch the light, had to be dada. Knowing from
> experience that if dad turns on the "wrong" light - that is, not
the one
> he's thinking of, it will cause this to get worse, I ask him if he
can tell
> me which light he wants on. He screams that he won't. I
say, "well can you
> tell dada then, otherwise, we're not sure which one you are wanting
to be
> on" and so, after screaming he won't again for a bit and screaming
that no,
> he doesn't want dada to just pick one either, finally, trembling
with anger
> he points to a light. It takes him a while to wind down from
this. I'd
> like to find a way to help him do something initially that is not
the
> screaming/crying reaction and I'm not sure how to do that ahead of
time,
> since it's his initial reaction and there's no chance to catch it
before it
> escalates - he's just escalated already. Does anyone have
suggestions of
> general ways that, at other times, I could help him deal with his
> expectations being disappointed that might have an impact?
>
> Second issue I can identify is a control issue - when he wants to
control
> something and can't. The other day he had asked to go to his
cousin's house
> and I was packing up the diaper bag to go. He and his sister were
running
> up and down the driveway while I was getting the dog inside and
everything
> together. As I was coming toward the front door, I heard him
scream at her
> "Aline, walk!" over and over. I got outside and my daughter was
running
> around like they usually do, but with my son standing in the middle
of the
> driveway, screaming and pointing at her. I went over, got down at
his
> level, and calmly asked him what was up. He kept screaming and got
out that
> he wanted his sister to "race" him one way but "walk" or slow down
so that
> he would get to the car from the garage first. His sister hadn't
really
> responded to him yet and I wasn't sure she even got his request, so
after
> making sure I got it, I asked him if he thought Aline liked to be
asked
> things with a yelling voice or a more polite voice. He lowered his
voice
> and asked her more calmly. She thought about it, then said "No, I
just need
> to run fast right now" and took off. He started screaming and
shaking
> again, tears running down his face, and the more she ran, the
louder he
> screamed. I couldn't get his attention to try to talk to him
through the
> screams, and I did want to try to talk to him about her reaction
(although
> in retrospect, he was so far gone perhaps I didn't need to do
that), so I
> asked my daughter if she'd stop running for a moment so I could try
to talk
> to Nicky. She did, but Nicky was so angry that it just made him go
over to
> her and start to tap her belly - like he didn't want to hit her
hard, but
> was so mad he just had to do something. I reminded him about using
our
> words, not our hands, which just increased the tantrum. I tried
quietly
> reminding him we were heading to his cousin's, hoping he might
latch onto
> that, but no dice. So I just sat on the grass while he
screamed "But I want
> her to walk!" at the top of his lungs for minutes on end and just
nodded and
> told him "yes, I hear how much you want that" and nothing else.
Finally he
> screamed he wanted num num on the grass - thank goodness he's still
nursing.
> Just as he started nursing my husband came home with our other
vehicle and
> started to park it at the end of the driveway behind our car. Nicky
> screamed "No, dada! Don't park in the driveway! Park on the
street!" My
> husband had had a bad day and really didn't want to do this, but I
have seen
> this pattern where if my son can't control something that's really
> frustrating him, he just needs to control something else and often
moves on
> to something else he can control to calm down, so I asked dh to
park on the
> street (didn't endear me to him but he got over it). My back
started
> hurting on the grass after a bit and I tried to move to a chair and
got
> "No!" from Nicky. When I described mama's hurting back, he decided
mama
> sitting in the seat of the car nursing him would be okay. After
about 10
> minutes I told him it was getting kind of late, so if he still
wanted to go
> to his cousin's tonight, I would like to get going. He said "okay"
and
> popped into his car seat. I'm wondering about decreasing these
tantrums or
> if there is any way to head them off or help him handle these
control issues
> better? Or do I just witness and be there to help till he gets
older and
> has more resources?
>
> PS - I am half way through the "Difficult Child" book that Pam (I
think?)
> has suggested and that is somewhat helpful, but most of the models
seem to
> be older kids so far rather than 3 yo's.
>
> Thanks very much,
>
> Joan

eriksmama2001

Oh, and we never use any punishments or rewards for any behavior. I
believe my son has a reason for his behavior just as I have and I
would not appreciate losing privaleges or being restricted because I
was grouchy or miserable and loud.
Pat

--- In [email protected], "Joan Labbe & Salvatore
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
> I feeling quite a challege at the moment with my son and am looking
for any
> input from those who have been there. He was a high need infant
who has
> flourished with co-sleeping and extended nursing. He definitely
fits the
> "spirited child" definition. The challenge as he is closing in on
age three
> and a half, is he has been having - sometimes three in one day, but
more
> often three or four a week - high decibel tantrums that escalate
and are
> difficult for me to head off or catch before they start or before
he is gone
> into the land of the great beyond with them. I guess I'm trying to
handle
> them as best I can but would appreciate any input anyone could give
me on
> this who has been there.
>
> Most of the time, it seems to be about two issues: One - something
he
> expected to happen didn't happen - for instance, he walked into the
kitchen
> the other night and apparently expected a light to be on in there.
There
> was no light on. With no preamble, he started screaming at the top
of his
> lungs and crying for his daddy to turn on the light. As dad was
approaching
> from the other direction, I came in also to see if I could help. He
> screamed at me not to touch the light, had to be dada. Knowing from
> experience that if dad turns on the "wrong" light - that is, not
the one
> he's thinking of, it will cause this to get worse, I ask him if he
can tell
> me which light he wants on. He screams that he won't. I
say, "well can you
> tell dada then, otherwise, we're not sure which one you are wanting
to be
> on" and so, after screaming he won't again for a bit and screaming
that no,
> he doesn't want dada to just pick one either, finally, trembling
with anger
> he points to a light. It takes him a while to wind down from
this. I'd
> like to find a way to help him do something initially that is not
the
> screaming/crying reaction and I'm not sure how to do that ahead of
time,
> since it's his initial reaction and there's no chance to catch it
before it
> escalates - he's just escalated already. Does anyone have
suggestions of
> general ways that, at other times, I could help him deal with his
> expectations being disappointed that might have an impact?
>
> Second issue I can identify is a control issue - when he wants to
control
> something and can't. The other day he had asked to go to his
cousin's house
> and I was packing up the diaper bag to go. He and his sister were
running
> up and down the driveway while I was getting the dog inside and
everything
> together. As I was coming toward the front door, I heard him
scream at her
> "Aline, walk!" over and over. I got outside and my daughter was
running
> around like they usually do, but with my son standing in the middle
of the
> driveway, screaming and pointing at her. I went over, got down at
his
> level, and calmly asked him what was up. He kept screaming and got
out that
> he wanted his sister to "race" him one way but "walk" or slow down
so that
> he would get to the car from the garage first. His sister hadn't
really
> responded to him yet and I wasn't sure she even got his request, so
after
> making sure I got it, I asked him if he thought Aline liked to be
asked
> things with a yelling voice or a more polite voice. He lowered his
voice
> and asked her more calmly. She thought about it, then said "No, I
just need
> to run fast right now" and took off. He started screaming and
shaking
> again, tears running down his face, and the more she ran, the
louder he
> screamed. I couldn't get his attention to try to talk to him
through the
> screams, and I did want to try to talk to him about her reaction
(although
> in retrospect, he was so far gone perhaps I didn't need to do
that), so I
> asked my daughter if she'd stop running for a moment so I could try
to talk
> to Nicky. She did, but Nicky was so angry that it just made him go
over to
> her and start to tap her belly - like he didn't want to hit her
hard, but
> was so mad he just had to do something. I reminded him about using
our
> words, not our hands, which just increased the tantrum. I tried
quietly
> reminding him we were heading to his cousin's, hoping he might
latch onto
> that, but no dice. So I just sat on the grass while he
screamed "But I want
> her to walk!" at the top of his lungs for minutes on end and just
nodded and
> told him "yes, I hear how much you want that" and nothing else.
Finally he
> screamed he wanted num num on the grass - thank goodness he's still
nursing.
> Just as he started nursing my husband came home with our other
vehicle and
> started to park it at the end of the driveway behind our car. Nicky
> screamed "No, dada! Don't park in the driveway! Park on the
street!" My
> husband had had a bad day and really didn't want to do this, but I
have seen
> this pattern where if my son can't control something that's really
> frustrating him, he just needs to control something else and often
moves on
> to something else he can control to calm down, so I asked dh to
park on the
> street (didn't endear me to him but he got over it). My back
started
> hurting on the grass after a bit and I tried to move to a chair and
got
> "No!" from Nicky. When I described mama's hurting back, he decided
mama
> sitting in the seat of the car nursing him would be okay. After
about 10
> minutes I told him it was getting kind of late, so if he still
wanted to go
> to his cousin's tonight, I would like to get going. He said "okay"
and
> popped into his car seat. I'm wondering about decreasing these
tantrums or
> if there is any way to head them off or help him handle these
control issues
> better? Or do I just witness and be there to help till he gets
older and
> has more resources?
>
> PS - I am half way through the "Difficult Child" book that Pam (I
think?)
> has suggested and that is somewhat helpful, but most of the models
seem to
> be older kids so far rather than 3 yo's.
>
> Thanks very much,
>
> Joan

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/31/2004 8:43:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
earthmothergypsy@... writes:

It seems that the large families are being raised in a way that isn't
peaceful, respectful, and are very heavy handed.>>

If that's the case then I wouldn't call it an unschooling situation. Maybe in
search of unschooling but not unschooling.
Unschoolers with all family sizes come upon situations that are of breathing
persons therefor life happens.
If someone said to me that their is never a worry/issue/spat/comment or
sadness that happens in their unschooling home id seriously question them to relive
the past month. I dont mean spanking and violence.

As humans we experience stressful situations and some we react to. If that's
makes a person not look peaceful/respectful then I dont think its that persons
issue but rather the one passing judgments and assuming that persons entire
life is screwed up or wrong.
I have four kids, we unschool and it has been wonderful. A few disagreements
among toddlers does mean failure. IMO it means my kids KNOW they can speak up
when they need to.

I was talking to a guy last night during my trip to Walmart and he had said
he had 3 sisters and 3 brothers. I asked him how he felt about that. His first
comment was that he thought it was great bc he always had someone to play
with. Some may think that is too many. I may even be afraid to have that many but
I was in the same feeling when I was adding baby number 2, 3 and four and the
sky still didn't fall so its all good.


***************************************************
<<<So what type of
generation of kids are we going to be dealing with if there are only
a few unschooling, respectful families and a LOT of families being
raised in a "not so good way", iykwim. >>>>

A lot of familles? I have read this several times and maybe its just me but I
dont see anything respectful about the statement. Does that mean that a lot
of the families are to read as if the poster thinks their children are not
being raised in a "not so good way" huh?
Family size has nothing to do with it.

Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "Joan Labbe & Salvatore
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
The challenge as he is closing in on age three
> and a half, is he has been having - sometimes three in one day, but
more
> often three or four a week - high decibel tantrums that escalate
and are
> difficult for me to head off or catch before they start or before
he is gone
> into the land of the great beyond with them.

Joan, how long has this been going on? We had a few bad weeks right
around when Mikey turned 3.5, IIRC. Turns out he was going through a
growth spurt and probably wasn't getting enough food or sleep--or
maybe it was just hard on his body and more of those wouldn't have
helped. I didn't really figure it out until it was over and noticed
he was bigger! Ah, actually, dh noticed he was bigger and heavier, so
I can't even take credit for that, lol. Anywho, if that's what's
going on, I guess trying to help him get more rest and eat more (or
drink some form of milkshakes to get some protein in a fun, summery
way!) and realizing it won't last too long.

Or it could be an emotional or mental growth spurt. Sometimes Mikey
gets completely incoherent when his imagination gets ahead of his
ability to form words. Feels like I have a constant headache when
this happens, but it doesn't last. (He's extremely extroverted, so we
have to be conversing most of the time and even if he's not making
sense, I'm still expected to reply correctly.)

--aj

Sherri-Lee Pressman

HI Karen,



You say the RR was squirted ON his head? Not in his mouth? I ask because I
use RR all the time, it is intended orally, although I have heard of topical
uses, but have not used it on dd because of the alcohol content and the
strong taste. But I have a girl who does the same sorts of things and I will
give a squirt a try, although that might just make her more mad and she will
scream at getting squirted:-)



Thanks for the clarification,



Sherri-Lee



_____

From: Tuckervill@... [mailto:Tuckervill@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 6:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question with tantrums (longish)




In a message dated 7/31/2004 9:50:23 PM Central Standard Time,
salgenovese@... writes:

With no preamble, he started screaming at the top of his
lungs and crying for his daddy to turn on the light. As dad was
approaching
from the other direction, I came in also to see if I could help. He
screamed at me not to touch the light, had to be dada.


~~~

I'm guessing your child is around 2 or 3?

I have experience being around a kid like this, very similar. (He's not
mine.) I saw one thing work with him that I though never would. It's an
herbal
remedy called Rescue Remedy. I witnessed a meltdown stop *instantly* when
he got a little RR squirted on his head.

Sounds crazy the first time you hear about it. But I saw it with my own
eyes. It'd be worth a try. I think you can get it at Wild Oats and places
like
that.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

"I'm guessing your child is around 2 or 3?

I have experience being around a kid like this, very similar. (He's not
mine.) I saw one thing work with him that I though never would. It's an
herbal
remedy called Rescue Remedy. I witnessed a meltdown stop *instantly* when
he got a little RR squirted on his head. "

Thanks for the suggestion, Karen - that's interesting. My goal isn't so
much behavioral as something magic to "stop the tantrums" - what I'd really
like to do is get ideas for helping him with the issues causing the
meltdowns - that is, find ways to help him with disappointed expectations
and not being able to control everything. Sometimes I do find something
that works well one time, then not again. Like one time as he was fuming I
took out some paper and started gouging a pencil in it saying "gosh, if I
was as mad as you, Nicky, I'd do this to this paper" adn so forth. He
started doing it too, and was soon giggling. I've also gotten him to get
out his frustrations at times by throwing soft balls at me, etcetera.
However my belief is that although these help him relieve the feelings
sometimes (and they don't seem to work much), they are sort of "back end"
solutions - I'd like to get at the triggers that cause the meltdowns. I
think there are very real issues with his own level of control in the world
and being flexible and staying calm enough to envison other solutions that
need to be worked on - then he won't get to the tantrums anymore. I do
believe as he gets older it will get easier, but I was hoping for some
wisdom on helping him now.

Joan

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

Thanks for your reply, Pat. You have said a lot of things that feel right
on the money to me. I do believe this is part of his own learning process
about where he has control and where he doesn't, where one person begins and
he ends. We'll keep practicing those interpersonal skills.

Joan

************************
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't
help."
-Calvin


-----Original Message-----
From: eriksmama2001 [mailto:scubamama@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 9:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Question with tantrums (longish)


Uhh. Sounds just like my three year old son and me. Only I call them
emotional releases. Sometimes one can not have everything one wants
immediatedly in life. That is frustrating for me. Sometimes I want to
scream. Sometimes I do. (Like when we were having renovation done on
our house, and they made the ceiling 8 3/4 inches too low!)

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

"He explains that we treat adults differently than toddlers when there
is a problem that leads to emotional distress. We show empathy toward
an adult and initially communicate our support in a very specific
language then wait for the person to calm down and switch to let's
find a solution mode in a gentle language."

Hi, Carrol,

To clarify, the issue with Nicky is that I already do show empathy and
support him, but he is not an adult with an adult's abilities and he is
often unable to calm down so we can get to the stage of finding a solution.
The above will likely work with many many children, however, as described in
the book I've been reading "The Difficult Child" (I hate the title, but the
ideas are good), there are some children who are not the norm and they
experience moderate to great difficulty being flexible and working things
through, leading to explosive behavior (the author calls it "inflexible
explosive" behavior). My son definitely fits this description, so it's my
goal to figure out ways to work on his underlying issues - that's what I'm
asking about.

Thanks.

Joan

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

"Joan, how long has this been going on? We had a few bad weeks right
around when Mikey turned 3.5, IIRC. Turns out he was going through a
growth spurt and probably wasn't getting enough food or sleep--or
maybe it was just hard on his body and more of those wouldn't have
helped. I didn't really figure it out until it was over and noticed
he was bigger! Ah, actually, dh noticed he was bigger and heavier, so
I can't even take credit for that, lol. Anywho, if that's what's
going on, I guess trying to help him get more rest and eat more (or
drink some form of milkshakes to get some protein in a fun, summery
way!) and realizing it won't last too long.

Or it could be an emotional or mental growth spurt. Sometimes Mikey
gets completely incoherent when his imagination gets ahead of his
ability to form words. Feels like I have a constant headache when
this happens, but it doesn't last. (He's extremely extroverted, so we
have to be conversing most of the time and even if he's not making
sense, I'm still expected to reply correctly.)

--aj"

Well, it's hard to remember exactly but I'd date the start of it to about
the time he turned 3 (so that's 6 months ago) and started to be more aware
of his own needs and his own person as opposed to being willing to follow
what big sister wanted to do. They've gotten more plentiful and intense
recently - I'd say in the last month. So I don't think it's a physical
growth spurt issue - yes, it's emotional growth and mental things. And
although I believe he'll get older and acquire a better ability to respond
to me, I think the underlying issues of dealing with disappointed
expectations, of developing the flexibility to more calmly consider other
options for getting his needs met, are issues we his parents will need to
help him with - so I don't think that it's a "phase" he'll outgrow except in
the sense that he'll get better language and understanding as he gets older
which will help us communicate better. As I stated in a reply in another
post, most kids have this flexibility more naturally, but some children find
it difficult to achieve - my challenge is to help him develop it. It may be
that with his current limits the best I can do until he does get a bit older
is just be there for him in his frustration.

Joan





Yahoo! Groups Links

Carrol

I haven't read The Difficult Child. I hope the ideas will help you.

"experience moderate to great difficulty being flexible"
It is my understanding that Dr. Karp's methods work very well in
these cases and are in fact the reason he wrote the book. I haven't
received any feedback on the book yet though.

Good luck,
Robin

earthmothergypsy

Laura,

Not sure how to make this come out right. :)

How about-if there are more families being raised in a "not very
respectful way" how are the few unschoolers out here going to make a
difference? Seems to me that we are out numbered by the strict non-
respectful families, because it seems that most of the large families
are being raised this way. Maybe I am only seeing a small group of
families doing this, but it is very overwhelming hearing these large
families brag about beating their kids into submission (though they
don't see it this way at all!), or how they have to "train up" their
kids. This includes some that actually spank their babies! {When I
heard this, I about lost it and have not been the same since.} This
type of raising seems to be the norm with the quiver full families.

Sorry what I said before didn't make sense or seemed disrespectful.
It wasn't meant that way. I guess I just worded it wrong. Sorry.

~Amanda


> ***************************************************
> <<<So what type of generation of kids are we going to be dealing
with if there are only a few unschooling, respectful families and a
LOT of families being raised in a "not so good way", iykwim. >>>>

Robyn Coburn

<<<How about-if there are more families being raised in a "not very
respectful way" how are the few unschoolers out here going to make a
difference?>>>

We make a difference to our own families.

Maybe the small amount of contact with your family will make one parent
think twice. Every step is an improvement.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[email protected]

<<<Amanda wrote<<In a message dated 8/1/2004 5:30:49 PM Eastern Standard
Time, earthmothergypsy@... writes:
<<<How about-if there are more families being raised in a "not very
respectful way" how are the few unschoolers out here going to make a
difference? Seems to me that we are out numbered by the strict non-
respectful families, because it seems that most of the large families
are being raised this way. Maybe I am only seeing a small group of
families doing this, but it is very overwhelming hearing these large
families brag about beating their kids into submission (though they
don't see it this way at all!), or how they have to "train up" their
kids. This includes some that actually spank their babies>>>>>>>!
******************************************************************************
*********************
Ugh,
That is scary stuff!
I would guess there are families that may be trying to work their way to a
more peaceful life and eventually to unschooling but I wouldn't say they are
unschoolers if they are using abuse or shame with their kids ongoing and calling
it unschooling. Abuse is abuse its wrong and it hurts. I couldn't be in a
group or list full of that either.

I didn't realize you were speaking of such awful situations. I thought due to
the "keeping the peace" discussions we have had that you we speaking of just
"big/larger" familles as a whole. Being a larger family I *thought* what you
were saying was that it wasn't possible for us to unschool with several kids
without abusing them.

Im sorry that you are experiencing such mislabeling of unschooling. That is
exactly why I disagree with rolling all types of hs together. I couldn't listen
to that kind of stuff.
Laura~
******************************************************************************
*************


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tracy Austin

Hi Joan,

I haven't read all the replies, but wanted to ask if you have read "The Happiest Todler on the Block" by Harvey Karp. Subtitle: The new way to stop the daily battle of wills and raise a secure and well-behaved one to four year old.

Some of the advice is very mainstream, but there are some suggestions on a way of speaking to your child/what to say that might help you. Sorry to be so brief, I'm short on time this evening:-)

Warmly,
Tracy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

christy_imnotred

I found a book called The Difficult Child written by Stanley Turecki,
it this the same book? I'm interested in reading the book that is
being discussed.

Christy

--- In [email protected], "Carrol"
<rtillmansmail@y...> wrote:
> I haven't read The Difficult Child. I hope the ideas will help you.
>
> "experience moderate to great difficulty being flexible"
> It is my understanding that Dr. Karp's methods work very well in
> these cases and are in fact the reason he wrote the book. I
haven't
> received any feedback on the book yet though.
>
> Good luck,
> Robin

Carrol

Christy,
I am unsure of the author of "The Difficult Child," the book that
Joan is reading. The book I was refering to is "The Happiest Toddler
on the Block" by Dr. Karp. I hope my post wasn't confusing.
Robin


--- In [email protected], "christy_imnotred"
<christy_imnotred@y...> wrote:
> I found a book called The Difficult Child written by Stanley
Turecki,
> it this the same book? I'm interested in reading the book that is
> being discussed.
>
> Christy
>
> --- In [email protected], "Carrol"
> <rtillmansmail@y...> wrote:
> > I haven't read The Difficult Child. I hope the ideas will help
you.
> >
> > "experience moderate to great difficulty being flexible"
> > It is my understanding that Dr. Karp's methods work very well in
> > these cases and are in fact the reason he wrote the book. I
> haven't
> > received any feedback on the book yet though.
> >
> > Good luck,
> > Robin

Sharon Thomas

Hi,
I hope you don't mind a newbie interjecting here.
We live in a part of the country that believes heavily in spanking and as
one poster explained large families "handle" issues with spanking. I have
heard it explained "they couldn't do it any other way with so many." I am
not excusing it just sharing what I have heard.And then there is the
Christian side that feels that it is the "best or only" way to raise
children. There are so many books out from Christians that dispell this idea
that it is a wonder they don't look into it and see the Scriptures teach
something else.Gentleness, forgiveness and peace are overlooked or thought
to refer to adults only it seems.
mamaof4

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

I mistakenly put "The Difficult Child" in a prior post as the book I have
been reading. The book I am actually reading about "inflexible explosive"
behavior is "The Explosive Child" by Ross W. Greene. He describes this
behavior as when a child wants something that is at odds with the wants of
someone else, and the child is unable to problem solve or compromise and
just keeps insisting on the one thing they want, leading to meltdown. This
exactly describes my son, Nicky (even from birth when he was not flexible
about where or how to nurse for example - had to be in a certain place in a
certain position or an infant level explosion would ensue), but I think the
frustration I had which prompted my email is that all of Greene's examples
at solutions deal with conversations with 7 or 8 or 10 year olds and I have
a 3.6 year old. It didn't seem possible to apply what he was saying to my
younger child who I couldn't exactly envision having a conversation that
would stick about "what compromise is".

The good news for me and Nicky is that after mulling over my frustrations
last night, and having been helped to think about what I'm trying to do more
from the replies I received here, I decided that it would be worth it to try
to have Greene's conversations with my son at his level as much as possible
and just see what happens, rather than judging beforehand that he wouldn't
be able to benefit from the conversation. I knew I had been assuming Nicky
knew what a compromise is since I am always offering those types of
suggestions, but I've never used that language. So last night Nicky and his
cousin wanted to watch one video first and his sister another. While he was
calm I said to him, "Nicky, do you know what a compromise is?" He said "No,
what?" As suggested in Greene's book I said "It's when Nicky wants
something and Mama wants something different, so we come up with an
agreement so Nicky gets some of what he wants and Mama gets some of what she
wants." He didn't stick around for me to give an example, but took off into
the kitchen. I didn't think he got it at all. Aline and her cousin worked
out a compromise and a few minutes later Nicky came back in and asked what
we were doing about the videos. I said "Aline and Emma worked out a
compromise.." and explained the compromise. He accepted that. Later that
night, we had another disagreement where he wanted one thing and I wanted
another. Before he had a chance to be escalating, I said, as suggested by
Greene, "Nicky, you want this thing, and Mama wants this other thing. I
think we need a compromise." And he said something new, he said "What's the
compromise, Mama?" instead of just repeating his request over and over
endlessly. And we got to a compromise! Wow!! Although I have offered
compromises in the past, I've never been able to get my suggestions past his
insistant pleas for the same thing to discuss them, so this is fabulous for
us. I even managed to help Nicky maintain coherence at the store this
morning and although I wasn't willing to compromise about what he wanted, we
managed to get out with what I'd call a minor meltdown as opposed to a major
one.

Greene also talks about options when a compromise can't be reached and other
strategies for different types of inflexibility. So I am really glad I got
past my own roadblock - I had the right book, but just stopped myself from
trying things until last night. I heartily second Pam's recommendation of
this book for anybody who feels they have a child who has difficulty
maintaining coherence long enough to problem solve and find compromises. I
really just skimmed the first part because it was all about deconstructing
demands on your child and so forth and I didn't feel it represented our
relationship much, but from Chapter 6 on, the ideas on what to do seem
great.

Joan


-----Original Message-----
From: Carrol [mailto:rtillmansmail@...]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 12:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: "The Difficult Child"


Christy,
I am unsure of the author of "The Difficult Child," the book that
Joan is reading. The book I was refering to is "The Happiest Toddler
on the Block" by Dr. Karp. I hope my post wasn't confusing.
Robin


--- In [email protected], "christy_imnotred"
<christy_imnotred@y...> wrote:
> I found a book called The Difficult Child written by Stanley
Turecki,
> it this the same book? I'm interested in reading the book that is
> being discussed.
>
> Christy
>
> --- In [email protected], "Carrol"
> <rtillmansmail@y...> wrote:
> > I haven't read The Difficult Child. I hope the ideas will help
you.
> >
> > "experience moderate to great difficulty being flexible"
> > It is my understanding that Dr. Karp's methods work very well in
> > these cases and are in fact the reason he wrote the book. I
> haven't
> > received any feedback on the book yet though.
> >
> > Good luck,
> > Robin





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earthmothergypsy

Laura,

I don't call what they do unschooling either. These families I spoke
of tend to homeschool, but are as strict in the learning as they are
in their child training. Ugh!

I can't even imagine trying to "school at home" with a large family.
Unschooling would be the ONLY way to go!!!!! imho :)

Thanks for understanding and again, I am soooo sorry that you
misunderstood before. I am still new here and learning who is who,
so may I ask how many youngins you have?

~Amanda

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

Hi, Susan,

I do not believe in spanking at all for many reasons, mainly that first off,
I'm the primary example for my children and if I show them that it's okay to
hit when I get frustrated, then that's the model they will follow. How can
I expect them to work things out with their words and not their hands if I
am unwilling and unable to do that? How would they get a picture of what
that looks like? Secondly, when spanking works, if it does, my kids would
be obeying out of fear, not acting out of their own beliefs and feelings and
the latter is what I want to achieve in my family.

In the tantrum situation I described, it makes no sense to me whatsoever to
spank my child. He is like a little guy drowning in the sea of his
emotions - he needs me, his mother, to help him find a way to not drown.
Hitting him for having feelings and for being sensitive and for needing my
help is the exact opposite of my perception of what he needs. I think a
parent hitting a child in this situation is merely giving in to their
feelings of frustration and overload in a really bad way that will have
negative effects on them and their child.

I would dearly love to see striking a child be a criminal offense right up
there with striking another adult. Why is it that if I hit another adult it
is "assault" but if I hit my child it is "discipline"? Doesn't make sense
to me. Children are not adults, but they are not another species. They are
people and people deserve to be treated non-violently. I was hit as a child
and I remember it with anger and shame. That is what was imparted to me by
the hitting. I would never never violate my child's trust in me by doing
it.

That all said, I admire anyone who has used hitting and is willing and
trying to find other means to handle what is ultimately a parent's
frustration level. There are many resources on dealing with children
non-violently. I love attachment parenting literature and Marshall
Rosenberg's "Non-Violent Communication" model. I hope you find something
that works for you and your children.

Joan

************************
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't
help."
-Calvin


-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon Thomas [mailto:meplusfive@...]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 8:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Question with tantrums (longish)


Hi, I hope you don't mind a newbie interjecting here. We live in a part of
the country that believes heavily in spanking and as
one poster explained large families "handle" issues with spanking. I have
heard it explained "they couldn't do it any other way with so many." I am
not excusing it just sharing what I have heard.And then there is the
Christian side that feels that it is the "best or only" way to raise
children. There are so many books out from Christians that dispell this idea
that it is a wonder they don't look into it and see the Scriptures teach
something else.Gentleness, forgiveness and peace are overlooked or thought
to refer to adults only it seems. mamaof4

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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/1/2004 11:52:40 AM Central Standard Time,
sherri--lee@... writes:

You say the RR was squirted ON his head? Not in his mouth? I ask because I
use RR all the time, it is intended orally, although I have heard of topical
uses, but have not used it on dd because of the alcohol content and the
strong taste. But I have a girl who does the same sorts of things and I will
give a squirt a try, although that might just make her more mad and she will
scream at getting squirted:-)




~~~

This particular child did not notice that we sprayed it on his head. (He
just calmed down instantly.) It was a really fine mist on a hot day, so it may
have been hard to notice anyway. (Not enough mist to cool him down,
certainly.) I've seen it used in the little pills under the tongue, and the spray.
I've rarely seen it sprayed in the mouth, but on the wrists, or backs of
knees, yes.

Karen


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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/1/2004 12:53:12 PM Central Standard Time,
salgenovese@... writes:

Thanks for the suggestion, Karen - that's interesting. My goal isn't so
much behavioral as something magic to "stop the tantrums" - what I'd really
like to do is get ideas for helping him with the issues causing the
meltdowns - that is, find ways to help him with disappointed expectations
and not being able to control everything


~~

Rescue Remedy might give you an option for allowing the time to pass so he
can grow and develop into more mature behaviors.

I know that when I'm angry and incoherent I'm not too rational. It makes
sense to me that when I am rational, I can choose to ask a person who loves me
to intervene in some way that will keep me from getting too far over the top,
even though I might not choose that intervention *while* I'm going over the
top. RR is not invasive or dangerous, and it's certainly not as coercive as
scooping a child up and taking him out of the zoo when he's irrational, which
sometimes has to happen.

I just frankly think it's worth a try and the worst thing that can happen is
that he calms down quickly and you can say, "whew, that was close".

Karen


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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/1/2004 4:31:09 PM Central Standard Time,
earthmothergypsy@... writes:

How about-if there are more families being raised in a "not very
respectful way" how are the few unschoolers out here going to make a
difference?


~~~

Ripples in a pond. Everyone has a sphere of influence, and actions have
consequences, even if they're unseen. True, the ripples could die out quickly
against the tsunami of disrespectful parenting. But the people who were
affected by the ripples had moments of peace and enlightment for at least that
long, and they may even cause their own ripples in their sphere of influence.

Karen


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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/3/2004 11:51:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Tuckervill@... writes:

How about-if there are more families being raised in a "not very
respectful way" how are the few unschoolers out here going to make a
difference?


~~~

Ripples in a pond. Everyone has a sphere of influence, and actions have
consequences, even if they're unseen. True, the ripples could die out
quickly
against the tsunami of disrespectful parenting. But the people who were
affected by the ripples had moments of peace and enlightment for at least
that
long, and they may even cause their own ripples in their sphere of
influence.<<<<


Right. Cameron has a girlfriend and two "ex's" who have already been touched
deeply by our lifestyle. We have two au pairs, two young women that lived
with us for a while (needed a room), several of Cameron's buddies, four
childless friends of ours, a few neighbors, and our in-laws (who think we are
absolutely NUTS, but who tend to seem a *tiny* bit nicer to their kids when we're
around, which isn't often).

If they can be just a *little* bit nicer to their friends or their children,
we can just hope that it will trickle down----or maybe even snowball!
<g>---into something more.

Unschooling is growing! We have about 250 members here! U-D has over a
thousand! I think unschooling and peaceful/mindful parenting will get bigger and
bigger too. Probably won't take the place of public education and the
switch/belt in MY lifetime <g>, but in my grandchildren's????

I'm doing what *I* can to make that happen!

~Kelly


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