This may seem like an odd request.
jnaisi
I tried discussing my decision to unschool the kids tonight. It did
not go well at all. He supported me in my decision to try an
alternate form of education for the kids. However he wants more
information then one sided information. I guess that is the right way
to put it.
I explained all the wonderful things I have read about the kids on
here and how hopeful I was for our own kids.
He wants the good, the bad and the ugly of unschooling. He also wants
the information to be unbiased. So he doesnt want information from
unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who are
totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.
Is there such a thing?
Where can I hear about the good, the bad and the ugly sides of
unschooling?
We ended up in a fight over it because I dont know where to get that
information and felt frustrated with him that he didnt trust me enough
to stand by me. He feels my choice to do this isnt an informed one.
Since I got all my information from unschooling families.
He isnt against the idea as a whole but he wants all sides of it
before agreeing it is best for his children.
I told him to talk to Kelly or her husband. Maybe I should plan a
trip down to Columbia one day LOL.
not go well at all. He supported me in my decision to try an
alternate form of education for the kids. However he wants more
information then one sided information. I guess that is the right way
to put it.
I explained all the wonderful things I have read about the kids on
here and how hopeful I was for our own kids.
He wants the good, the bad and the ugly of unschooling. He also wants
the information to be unbiased. So he doesnt want information from
unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who are
totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.
Is there such a thing?
Where can I hear about the good, the bad and the ugly sides of
unschooling?
We ended up in a fight over it because I dont know where to get that
information and felt frustrated with him that he didnt trust me enough
to stand by me. He feels my choice to do this isnt an informed one.
Since I got all my information from unschooling families.
He isnt against the idea as a whole but he wants all sides of it
before agreeing it is best for his children.
I told him to talk to Kelly or her husband. Maybe I should plan a
trip down to Columbia one day LOL.
jnaisi
Some of the questions he had were:
how long has unschooling been around?
what is the ratio of unschoolers who attend college and complete it?
what is the socioeconomic something or other LOL?
He wants statistics I guess. He is a very detail oriented person and
wants more information then what I have been able to provide to him.
I want him to do the research and find the answers he is searching for
because I am not 100% sure what he wants to know.
He wants me to do the research so I can make an informed choice and
explain it to him and be able to answer all his questions.
how long has unschooling been around?
what is the ratio of unschoolers who attend college and complete it?
what is the socioeconomic something or other LOL?
He wants statistics I guess. He is a very detail oriented person and
wants more information then what I have been able to provide to him.
I want him to do the research and find the answers he is searching for
because I am not 100% sure what he wants to know.
He wants me to do the research so I can make an informed choice and
explain it to him and be able to answer all his questions.
Christy Mahoney
Perhaps you could start by trying it for, say, a year. Do you think
your husband might agree to that? Your son is only 11, and it
sounds like he's had a really really rough time. He's not going to
college or getting a job soon.
If you could take a year to focus on what brings your son joy,
wouldn't that be wonderful? If he likes legos, buy him some new
ones just for a surprise. Get him the Klutz book of paper
airplanes. Stay home and watch movies and RELAX. Give him the
chance to be himself again with no teasing, no painful writing, no
pressure, and definitely no talk about if you don't do such and
such, you're going back to school. See what happens. How could
things not improve?
-Christy M.
--- In [email protected], "jnaisi"
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
your husband might agree to that? Your son is only 11, and it
sounds like he's had a really really rough time. He's not going to
college or getting a job soon.
If you could take a year to focus on what brings your son joy,
wouldn't that be wonderful? If he likes legos, buy him some new
ones just for a surprise. Get him the Klutz book of paper
airplanes. Stay home and watch movies and RELAX. Give him the
chance to be himself again with no teasing, no painful writing, no
pressure, and definitely no talk about if you don't do such and
such, you're going back to school. See what happens. How could
things not improve?
-Christy M.
--- In [email protected], "jnaisi"
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
>did
> I tried discussing my decision to unschool the kids tonight. It
> not go well at all. He supported me in my decision to try anway
> alternate form of education for the kids. However he wants more
> information then one sided information. I guess that is the right
> to put it.wants
>
> I explained all the wonderful things I have read about the kids on
> here and how hopeful I was for our own kids.
>
> He wants the good, the bad and the ugly of unschooling. He also
> the information to be unbiased. So he doesnt want information fromare
> unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who
> totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.that
>
> Is there such a thing?
>
> Where can I hear about the good, the bad and the ugly sides of
> unschooling?
>
> We ended up in a fight over it because I dont know where to get
> information and felt frustrated with him that he didnt trust meenough
> to stand by me. He feels my choice to do this isnt an informedone.
> Since I got all my information from unschooling families.
>
> He isnt against the idea as a whole but he wants all sides of it
> before agreeing it is best for his children.
>
> I told him to talk to Kelly or her husband. Maybe I should plan a
> trip down to Columbia one day LOL.
>
Fetteroll
On May 23, 2007, at 10:53 PM, jnaisi wrote:
naturally learn by exploring the world, by ordering the world they
encounter in ways that are personally meaningful to them.
John Holt was the first to really observe it and write about it. He
did so in order to try to change schools to make them better places
to learn. You can see the progress in his thinking on that matter if
you read his books in order. He eventually concluded that schools
couldn't be fixed. School actually interfered in the process of
learning. (Which is why we get the idea that learning is hard.
Learning *is* hard when people are in an environment that is counter
to the way we naturally learn.)
As an engineer (in my former life) unschooling rubs me the wrong way.
I like neat orderly learning. I like it all laid out for me in order
with a clear beginning and end all tied up in a package that feels
complete.
But the artist/writer in me (honestly the two natures inside me have
fights ;-) has been allowed to see that true, profound learning
doesn't come from absorbing facts. It comes from making connections
between seemingly disparate bits that have been experienced in context.
I've dabbled a bit at Japanese history and it's given me insights
into how kids have American and European history presented to them.
Even history that's well written (which textbooks often aren't), if
you don't have interesting connections already inside your head to
who the people and places and times were, it reads like "Abc attacked
Xyz in 1178 in order to gain access to Pqr." It's just strings of
this happened and that happened because this other thing happened.
I've also been reading manga and watching anime (Japanese comics and
cartoons) and references to the various times and people pop up.
*Slowly* (since I'm not immersed in the culture as a Japanese person
would be) I'm building up interesting connections to the important
people and places. That's making them interesting. It's making them
things I'd like to know more (real) stuff about.
The first is school learning. It needs to be repeated over and over
until "Abc attacked Xyz in 1178 in order to gain access to Pqr," is
etched in the brain because it's meaningless without a meaningful
context. It's hearing "O-hayo" = good morning over and over and over.
And when there are several textbooks full of stuff that schools
expect to pour into kids, it's not surprising that it takes 12 years
to do.
The second is the way we naturally learn. We absorb interesting
facts. We make connections to interesting facts. In school Columbus
and Henry VIII and Shakespeare weren't even in the same classes. But
by learning about them naturally I know that Columbus got money from
the parents of one of Henry VIII's wives. And Elizabeth, the underdog
for the rulership of England, was a sponsor of Shakespeare. And
gunpowder came to Europe about the time of Columbus. There's also a
clock in St. Mark's square that has been running since *before*
Columbus discovered America. And there are 1000's of pigeons in St.
Mark's Square. If you hold a cone of corn (that vendors sell) out
they'll swoop down and cluster on your arm. (Which makes movies that
have a scene in St. Mark's Square a lot more personally meaningful
for me.) There are also dead rats that float in the canals and they
smell really bad in July. There are also hundreds of cats living in
the Coliseum in Rome that nearby residents feed (at least there were
back in 1968).
None of that is meaningful for a test. But it *is* meaningful for
learning more in real life. The interesting connections make more
information interesting.
How often have kids asked, "Is this going to be on the test? Do I
have to learn this?" (And how long do they retain it afterwards.) But
when there is no test, when there is no force, it's all potentially
interesting.
has asked for!
An unschooling girl who lives near me is currently attending Harvard.
The Ivy Leagues *love* unschoolers because unschoolers have actually
lived life and explored what fascinates them and are raring to know
more rather than having spent 12 years absorbing textbooks to get
great grades.
What's the ratio of schooled kids who attend college and complete it?
The funny thing is that when kids do well in school, school is given
credit with some going to the student for working hard. When kids
don't do well, it's seen as the student's fault. From 12 years of
doing and reading and writing about unschooling, I know it's not true
and not that simple.
I think the most important idea is that unschooling doesn't interfere
with college. A child who desires to go to college can do just fine.
In fact better because they haven't had 12 previous years of boring
textbook work. To them it's all new and different and interesting.
My daughter decided to take the college statistics class her father
teaches at 13. She is *not* a math whiz. I don't mean she's bad but
she's never done much math other than video games, calculating the
tip at a restaurant, figuring out if she can afford something. She
never was drawn to math puzzles. But she thought taking the class
would be fun. And -- though learning is the point of unschooling, not
grades -- her test scores were always among the top 5 out of 60
students. She's taken 3 more class since then (college algebra,
precalculus and one other I can't remember), one not taught by her
father, with the same top scoring results. (She's also gained great
insights into the difference between learning for a test and learning
from living.)
It's *fun* for her. College statistics at 13 isn't typical for
unschoolers ;-) But taking community college classes for fun is
something a lot of unschoolers do. Despite the feeling that kids need
trained to do book work, and the feeling that a lifetime of freedom
to drop whatever isn't interesting anymore won't allow them to sit
through a class that isn't whiz bang like cartoons ;-), it just
doesn't hold true in real life. It's much better to *not* spend 12
years absorbing the idea that learning is hard and boring It's much
better to *not* take 12 years of classes that don't interest someone
"just in case" they might need the information.
It's much better to acquire the information when people need it. One
unschooling girl spent 3 months learning the math she needed for
college after having absorbed math from living life. If she can do it
in 6 months, what's the purpose of the other 11.75 years?
middle class but there was a discussion recently (probably on Sandra
Dodd's list) started by a guy who wanted to provide programs to help
disadvantaged people unschool. Several people piped up who said they
were below poverty level (basically to say they were a lot more
capable than he was giving them credit for.)
Obviously the people on line discussing it will be skewed towards
those who have regular access to the internet.
tends to appeal to guys since it was written by an engineer: neat and
orderly and logical. ;-)
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> how long has unschooling been around?Since the beginning of time. People (probably every creature)
naturally learn by exploring the world, by ordering the world they
encounter in ways that are personally meaningful to them.
John Holt was the first to really observe it and write about it. He
did so in order to try to change schools to make them better places
to learn. You can see the progress in his thinking on that matter if
you read his books in order. He eventually concluded that schools
couldn't be fixed. School actually interfered in the process of
learning. (Which is why we get the idea that learning is hard.
Learning *is* hard when people are in an environment that is counter
to the way we naturally learn.)
As an engineer (in my former life) unschooling rubs me the wrong way.
I like neat orderly learning. I like it all laid out for me in order
with a clear beginning and end all tied up in a package that feels
complete.
But the artist/writer in me (honestly the two natures inside me have
fights ;-) has been allowed to see that true, profound learning
doesn't come from absorbing facts. It comes from making connections
between seemingly disparate bits that have been experienced in context.
I've dabbled a bit at Japanese history and it's given me insights
into how kids have American and European history presented to them.
Even history that's well written (which textbooks often aren't), if
you don't have interesting connections already inside your head to
who the people and places and times were, it reads like "Abc attacked
Xyz in 1178 in order to gain access to Pqr." It's just strings of
this happened and that happened because this other thing happened.
I've also been reading manga and watching anime (Japanese comics and
cartoons) and references to the various times and people pop up.
*Slowly* (since I'm not immersed in the culture as a Japanese person
would be) I'm building up interesting connections to the important
people and places. That's making them interesting. It's making them
things I'd like to know more (real) stuff about.
The first is school learning. It needs to be repeated over and over
until "Abc attacked Xyz in 1178 in order to gain access to Pqr," is
etched in the brain because it's meaningless without a meaningful
context. It's hearing "O-hayo" = good morning over and over and over.
And when there are several textbooks full of stuff that schools
expect to pour into kids, it's not surprising that it takes 12 years
to do.
The second is the way we naturally learn. We absorb interesting
facts. We make connections to interesting facts. In school Columbus
and Henry VIII and Shakespeare weren't even in the same classes. But
by learning about them naturally I know that Columbus got money from
the parents of one of Henry VIII's wives. And Elizabeth, the underdog
for the rulership of England, was a sponsor of Shakespeare. And
gunpowder came to Europe about the time of Columbus. There's also a
clock in St. Mark's square that has been running since *before*
Columbus discovered America. And there are 1000's of pigeons in St.
Mark's Square. If you hold a cone of corn (that vendors sell) out
they'll swoop down and cluster on your arm. (Which makes movies that
have a scene in St. Mark's Square a lot more personally meaningful
for me.) There are also dead rats that float in the canals and they
smell really bad in July. There are also hundreds of cats living in
the Coliseum in Rome that nearby residents feed (at least there were
back in 1968).
None of that is meaningful for a test. But it *is* meaningful for
learning more in real life. The interesting connections make more
information interesting.
How often have kids asked, "Is this going to be on the test? Do I
have to learn this?" (And how long do they retain it afterwards.) But
when there is no test, when there is no force, it's all potentially
interesting.
> what is the ratio of unschoolers who attend college and complete it?I don't know. There aren't statistics. Which more than one husband
has asked for!
An unschooling girl who lives near me is currently attending Harvard.
The Ivy Leagues *love* unschoolers because unschoolers have actually
lived life and explored what fascinates them and are raring to know
more rather than having spent 12 years absorbing textbooks to get
great grades.
What's the ratio of schooled kids who attend college and complete it?
The funny thing is that when kids do well in school, school is given
credit with some going to the student for working hard. When kids
don't do well, it's seen as the student's fault. From 12 years of
doing and reading and writing about unschooling, I know it's not true
and not that simple.
I think the most important idea is that unschooling doesn't interfere
with college. A child who desires to go to college can do just fine.
In fact better because they haven't had 12 previous years of boring
textbook work. To them it's all new and different and interesting.
My daughter decided to take the college statistics class her father
teaches at 13. She is *not* a math whiz. I don't mean she's bad but
she's never done much math other than video games, calculating the
tip at a restaurant, figuring out if she can afford something. She
never was drawn to math puzzles. But she thought taking the class
would be fun. And -- though learning is the point of unschooling, not
grades -- her test scores were always among the top 5 out of 60
students. She's taken 3 more class since then (college algebra,
precalculus and one other I can't remember), one not taught by her
father, with the same top scoring results. (She's also gained great
insights into the difference between learning for a test and learning
from living.)
It's *fun* for her. College statistics at 13 isn't typical for
unschoolers ;-) But taking community college classes for fun is
something a lot of unschoolers do. Despite the feeling that kids need
trained to do book work, and the feeling that a lifetime of freedom
to drop whatever isn't interesting anymore won't allow them to sit
through a class that isn't whiz bang like cartoons ;-), it just
doesn't hold true in real life. It's much better to *not* spend 12
years absorbing the idea that learning is hard and boring It's much
better to *not* take 12 years of classes that don't interest someone
"just in case" they might need the information.
It's much better to acquire the information when people need it. One
unschooling girl spent 3 months learning the math she needed for
college after having absorbed math from living life. If she can do it
in 6 months, what's the purpose of the other 11.75 years?
> what is the socioeconomic something or other LOL?Of those who home/unschool? All across the board. Probably mostly
middle class but there was a discussion recently (probably on Sandra
Dodd's list) started by a guy who wanted to provide programs to help
disadvantaged people unschool. Several people piped up who said they
were below poverty level (basically to say they were a lot more
capable than he was giving them credit for.)
Obviously the people on line discussing it will be skewed towards
those who have regular access to the internet.
> I want him to do the research and find the answers he is searching forIf he will read, or you want to print some stuff for him, my website
> because I am not 100% sure what he wants to know.
tends to appeal to guys since it was written by an engineer: neat and
orderly and logical. ;-)
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
How long has unschooling been around? Depends on how you mean - Ben
Franklin was basically unschooled (he learned what interested him when
it interested him and how it interested him and moved on when he wanted
to move on). The compulsory education system didn't exist until
industrialization - mid 1800s roughly. Prior to that, some folks had the
one room schoolhouse, others had Mom or Dad teaching them the 3 Rs, and
others learned as they went. Modern schooling is the newcomer. As a
"modern movement" I suppose it was around somewhere in the 60s but
probably not by the name "unschooling" - there were lots of
"alternative" schooling movements going on then. Somewhere in the 70s
and 80s is when "homeschooling" in general got going as a modern
development. People like John Holt (among others) started observing and
writing about, speaking about, the need for change in the public school
system. So, it's been around in the current "form" some 20 or 30 years.
Demographically, it's pretty much spread out across the board - single
parent families, two parent families, grandparents with custody of
grandkids, adoptive parents, one income, two incomes, food stamps to
small farms to city dwellers to upper middle class, families with young
kids, with teens, with one child or a dozen, stay home moms, stay home
dads, home based business entrepreneurs, physicians, and all sorts of
other things. Unschooling looks basically like any community of people.
Deb
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Franklin was basically unschooled (he learned what interested him when
it interested him and how it interested him and moved on when he wanted
to move on). The compulsory education system didn't exist until
industrialization - mid 1800s roughly. Prior to that, some folks had the
one room schoolhouse, others had Mom or Dad teaching them the 3 Rs, and
others learned as they went. Modern schooling is the newcomer. As a
"modern movement" I suppose it was around somewhere in the 60s but
probably not by the name "unschooling" - there were lots of
"alternative" schooling movements going on then. Somewhere in the 70s
and 80s is when "homeschooling" in general got going as a modern
development. People like John Holt (among others) started observing and
writing about, speaking about, the need for change in the public school
system. So, it's been around in the current "form" some 20 or 30 years.
Demographically, it's pretty much spread out across the board - single
parent families, two parent families, grandparents with custody of
grandkids, adoptive parents, one income, two incomes, food stamps to
small farms to city dwellers to upper middle class, families with young
kids, with teens, with one child or a dozen, stay home moms, stay home
dads, home based business entrepreneurs, physicians, and all sorts of
other things. Unschooling looks basically like any community of people.
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
I'd consider it worth the trip to Columbia to talk to Ben Lovejoy about unschooling -- and for the chance to meet Cameron & Duncan, too. I don't know how anyone could spend an afternoon with the Lovejoy guys and not be totally sold on radical unschooling.
Sylvia
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48516/*http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 hot CTA = Join Yahoo!'s user panel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48516/*http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 hot CTA = Join Yahoo!'s user panel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kel9769
>that
> We ended up in a fight over it because I dont know where to get
> information and felt frustrated with him that he didnt trust meenough
> to stand by me.Robyn
I'm so glad you brought up this topic because I can really use the
input myself. I have been unschooling my daughter since February
and I am really happy overall with the changes I see in her. She is
so much happier, healther and more confident. We are currently
exploring her auditing a college class in the fall (she's 14). She
wants to go to college and plans to start taking her core level
classes for credit when she is 16 and then maybe go away for school
when she is 18. My big problem is her dad's attitude toward her
education. He was not a part of her life at all until about a year
ago. He has been living 1,200 miles away and knows I took her out
of school but doesnt understand about unschooling at all. He is
moving to be closer to us next Friday. We do plan on living
together by the fall and getting married in a year or so. Exciting
stuff but big changes. I have been avioding talking about school
with him before he gets here but we did end up talking about a few
days ago and argued. I know were he is coming from is based on
concern for her and fear for her future. He wants her to have an
education and "not be like him". He is so worried about her ability
to be successful in college, work, and "the real world". He just
can't see that school is not the real world that she is living in
the real world now. I don't know if I am ever going to be able to
convince him. At this point my daughter and I are both willing to
compromise and do some "school work" to keep him comfortable. We
are both sad about it though. I am not used to having to compromise
when it comes to parenting stuff. I've always done what I want and
it's hard for me to have to take someone else's comfort level into
consideration. To be honest I don't really like it. I like him
though and he is actually her father so I guess I'll have to figure
it out.
I am really appreciating the feedback from everyone. It is helping
me a lot.
Kelly from MA
Cameron Parham
I would take this all very seriously. You are so kind to accept his concerns about your ds' future. But are you and she getting the same consideration? Is he hearing you and your dd? Are your thoughts and feelings and experience being trusted and respected? If not at this point I'd wonder if they ever will be. Sorry, but this is a time to be very careful. Why be fake with him and do something you do not believe is necessary or right? Where will that end? How is this part of the joy? I would think that he would want to respect what has been working for her and read up on it, and maybe live near you and get to really know her and her strengths. Will he read books and websites about unschooling that you recommend? Will he take time to see how your lives work? If not I would really be careful! Whew! Sorry, but I feel concerned for you. Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: jnaisi <robyn.bentley@...>
He wants the good, the bad and the ugly of unschooling. He also wants
the information to be unbiased. So he doesnt want information from
unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who are
totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.
Is there such a thing?
-=-=-=-=-
Nope. It's really one or the other. Folks either think we're brilliant
or nuts. No in-between.
-=-=-=-
We ended up in a fight over it because I dont know where to get that
information and felt frustrated with him that he didnt trust me enough
to stand by me. He feels my choice to do this isnt an informed one.
Since I got all my information from unschooling families.
-=-=-=-=-
And where does he expect to get it?
If you wanted information on building an ant farm, would't the best
place to go for information BE to people who build ant farms?
If you wanted information on building an airplane, would't the best
place to go for information BE to people who build airplanes?
If you wanted information on making sushi, would't the best place to go
for information BE to people who make sushi?
If you wanted information on planting a tree, would't the best place to
go for information BE to people who plant trees?
That's really silly thinking.
He can get PLENTY of anti-unschooling stuff from the NEA---folks who
like to take your money (and mine!) to teach your children.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I told him to talk to Kelly or her husband. Maybe I should plan a
trip down to Columbia one day LOL.
-=-=-=-
We're here.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
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from AOL at AOL.com.
From: jnaisi <robyn.bentley@...>
He wants the good, the bad and the ugly of unschooling. He also wants
the information to be unbiased. So he doesnt want information from
unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who are
totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.
Is there such a thing?
-=-=-=-=-
Nope. It's really one or the other. Folks either think we're brilliant
or nuts. No in-between.
-=-=-=-
We ended up in a fight over it because I dont know where to get that
information and felt frustrated with him that he didnt trust me enough
to stand by me. He feels my choice to do this isnt an informed one.
Since I got all my information from unschooling families.
-=-=-=-=-
And where does he expect to get it?
If you wanted information on building an ant farm, would't the best
place to go for information BE to people who build ant farms?
If you wanted information on building an airplane, would't the best
place to go for information BE to people who build airplanes?
If you wanted information on making sushi, would't the best place to go
for information BE to people who make sushi?
If you wanted information on planting a tree, would't the best place to
go for information BE to people who plant trees?
That's really silly thinking.
He can get PLENTY of anti-unschooling stuff from the NEA---folks who
like to take your money (and mine!) to teach your children.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I told him to talk to Kelly or her husband. Maybe I should plan a
trip down to Columbia one day LOL.
-=-=-=-
We're here.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: jnaisi <robyn.bentley@...>
Some of the questions he had were:
how long has unschooling been around?
-=-=-=-=-
Since humans have roamed the planet and before. Even Neaderthals
learned!
Compulsory schooling, on the other hand, has only been around just over
100 years. Failed, pathetic "experiment."
-=-=-=-=-=-
what is the ratio of unschoolers who attend college and complete it?
-=-=-=-
*RATIO*????
Can he give me the "ratio" of schooled kids who attend college and
complete it?
No stats. But we personally know of many.
Here are some names *he* could google:
Roya Sorooshian
Laurie Chauncey
Aiden Carey
Cassidy Vare
-=-=-=-=-
what is the socioeconomic something or other LOL?
-=-=-=-
Meaning where are we, as a whole, socio-ecomonically? All over the
board.
Keeping in mind that most of us are living on one income by choice.
One of us has chosen to stay home and BE with our kids, so our incomes
are probably lower than the national average. I'd say the intelligence
level is much higher though. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
He wants statistics I guess. He is a very detail oriented person and
wants more information then what I have been able to provide to him.
-=-=-=-
There are no realiable stats on unschoolers or homeschoolers. That's
something we all need to get over.
-=-=-=--=
I want him to do the research and find the answers he is searching for
because I am not 100% sure what he wants to know.
He wants me to do the research so I can make an informed choice and
explain it to him and be able to answer all his questions.
-=-=-=-
I'll have a GOOD time with *this* one! <G>
So---what he wants is for *you* (the teacher) to do all the work,
devising a curriculum for *him* (the ignorant student who must be
spoon-fed all his information)?
That's exactly what we're trying to *avoid* with our kids!
Unlike schooled kids (and adults!) who want everything handed to them
on a platter, *our* kids will go *after* what they want to learn. They
are curious, intelligent, eager learners. They are fascinated by life
and the world. They're eager to learn new things. They're interested
and interesting. They don't rely on others to spoon-feed them things
that they could find out for themselves. They don't believe everything
they hear---they question it; they research it; they look inside it and
tinker with it. THEY do that!
They don't make someone *else* do their "homework."
Plus---he's already told you that you weren't informed. At what point
will he consider you informed?
Unschooling takes time to absorb. It takes DOing it and THINKing on it
and APPLYing it and SEEing it in action---in your own and in others'
kids. It's really not an overnight revelation----well, one day it IS,
but that's after months and months of working on it internally. One day
you wake up and go: DAMN! That makes sense! It WORKS! Of COURSE!
Unshcooling is so foreign to how we were raised that it takes deep
thought and searching to understand and internalize.
Once you *do*....well, there's no going back.
He needs to do his *own* research OR trust that you're doing what you
know is best. He should know that you would do nothing to endanger or
hinder your own children's learning. Or does he not trust you either?
We can recommend books and websites (Joyce's should be just what he's
looking for!), magazines, articles, and essays. But he'll need to do
the work to convince himself.
He's certainly welcome to come on here and debate us---but warn him:
we're pretty good at this! <BWEG>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: jnaisi <robyn.bentley@...>
Some of the questions he had were:
how long has unschooling been around?
-=-=-=-=-
Since humans have roamed the planet and before. Even Neaderthals
learned!
Compulsory schooling, on the other hand, has only been around just over
100 years. Failed, pathetic "experiment."
-=-=-=-=-=-
what is the ratio of unschoolers who attend college and complete it?
-=-=-=-
*RATIO*????
Can he give me the "ratio" of schooled kids who attend college and
complete it?
No stats. But we personally know of many.
Here are some names *he* could google:
Roya Sorooshian
Laurie Chauncey
Aiden Carey
Cassidy Vare
-=-=-=-=-
what is the socioeconomic something or other LOL?
-=-=-=-
Meaning where are we, as a whole, socio-ecomonically? All over the
board.
Keeping in mind that most of us are living on one income by choice.
One of us has chosen to stay home and BE with our kids, so our incomes
are probably lower than the national average. I'd say the intelligence
level is much higher though. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
He wants statistics I guess. He is a very detail oriented person and
wants more information then what I have been able to provide to him.
-=-=-=-
There are no realiable stats on unschoolers or homeschoolers. That's
something we all need to get over.
-=-=-=--=
I want him to do the research and find the answers he is searching for
because I am not 100% sure what he wants to know.
He wants me to do the research so I can make an informed choice and
explain it to him and be able to answer all his questions.
-=-=-=-
I'll have a GOOD time with *this* one! <G>
So---what he wants is for *you* (the teacher) to do all the work,
devising a curriculum for *him* (the ignorant student who must be
spoon-fed all his information)?
That's exactly what we're trying to *avoid* with our kids!
Unlike schooled kids (and adults!) who want everything handed to them
on a platter, *our* kids will go *after* what they want to learn. They
are curious, intelligent, eager learners. They are fascinated by life
and the world. They're eager to learn new things. They're interested
and interesting. They don't rely on others to spoon-feed them things
that they could find out for themselves. They don't believe everything
they hear---they question it; they research it; they look inside it and
tinker with it. THEY do that!
They don't make someone *else* do their "homework."
Plus---he's already told you that you weren't informed. At what point
will he consider you informed?
Unschooling takes time to absorb. It takes DOing it and THINKing on it
and APPLYing it and SEEing it in action---in your own and in others'
kids. It's really not an overnight revelation----well, one day it IS,
but that's after months and months of working on it internally. One day
you wake up and go: DAMN! That makes sense! It WORKS! Of COURSE!
Unshcooling is so foreign to how we were raised that it takes deep
thought and searching to understand and internalize.
Once you *do*....well, there's no going back.
He needs to do his *own* research OR trust that you're doing what you
know is best. He should know that you would do nothing to endanger or
hinder your own children's learning. Or does he not trust you either?
We can recommend books and websites (Joyce's should be just what he's
looking for!), magazines, articles, and essays. But he'll need to do
the work to convince himself.
He's certainly welcome to come on here and debate us---but warn him:
we're pretty good at this! <BWEG>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: kel9769 <kel9769@...>
My big problem is her dad's attitude toward her
education. He was not a part of her life at all until about a year
ago. He has been living 1,200 miles away and knows I took her out
of school but doesnt understand about unschooling at all. He is
moving to be closer to us next Friday. We do plan on living
together by the fall and getting married in a year or so. Exciting
stuff but big changes. I have been avioding talking about school
with him before he gets here but we did end up talking about a few
days ago and argued.
-=-=-=-
So hes' trusted you up to this point, but is now (when she's happy and
doing well) arguing with you?
=-=-=-=-
I know were he is coming from is based on
concern for her and fear for her future. He wants her to have an
education and "not be like him".
-=-=-=-
She's not---she's learning and making an effort to learn more. Is he?
-=-=-=-=-
He is so worried about her ability
to be successful in college, work, and "the real world".
-=-=-=-=-
She's IN the real world NOW.
-=-=-=-=-=-
He just can't see that school is not the real world that she is living
in
the real world now.
-=-=-=-=-
Would HE like to come here and debate with us too? <BWG>
SCHOOL is the real world? Since when? Can he give us an example???
-=-=-=-
I don't know if I am ever going to be able to
convince him. At this point my daughter and I are both willing to
compromise and do some "school work" to keep him comfortable.
-=-=-=-
It's nice that you're willing to go outsid eyour comfort zone for him.
Is he not willing to do that for you?
-=-=-=-=-
We are both sad about it though.
-=-=-=-=-
I think that's the clincher. Does he not care?
-=-=-=-=-
I am not used to having to compromise
when it comes to parenting stuff. I've always done what I want and
it's hard for me to have to take someone else's comfort level into
consideration. To be honest I don't really like it.
-=-=-=-=-
An absent father shouldn't have much say. I realize he's about to be
"present"---but he needs to trust you as he has her whole life up to
this point. I'm not sure how much he can complain---seriously! Is he
unhappy how she's turned out? Have you done a bad job? He can't trust
you to make wise decisions concerning your daughter???
-=-=-=-=-
I like him though and he is actually her father so I guess I'll have to
figure
it out.
-=-=-=-=-
Is he willing to learn more? Or has he shut down to learning new
things? If he *has* shut down, maybe that's something to point out to
him. *I* wouldn't want my children refusing to learn something that was
so important to *their* children's lives.
When people refuse to do the research on unschooling, it simply proves
my point: they've quit learning---and that is one of the HUGE things
I'm trying to avoid through unschooling! I want my kids to always love
to learn!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: kel9769 <kel9769@...>
My big problem is her dad's attitude toward her
education. He was not a part of her life at all until about a year
ago. He has been living 1,200 miles away and knows I took her out
of school but doesnt understand about unschooling at all. He is
moving to be closer to us next Friday. We do plan on living
together by the fall and getting married in a year or so. Exciting
stuff but big changes. I have been avioding talking about school
with him before he gets here but we did end up talking about a few
days ago and argued.
-=-=-=-
So hes' trusted you up to this point, but is now (when she's happy and
doing well) arguing with you?
=-=-=-=-
I know were he is coming from is based on
concern for her and fear for her future. He wants her to have an
education and "not be like him".
-=-=-=-
She's not---she's learning and making an effort to learn more. Is he?
-=-=-=-=-
He is so worried about her ability
to be successful in college, work, and "the real world".
-=-=-=-=-
She's IN the real world NOW.
-=-=-=-=-=-
He just can't see that school is not the real world that she is living
in
the real world now.
-=-=-=-=-
Would HE like to come here and debate with us too? <BWG>
SCHOOL is the real world? Since when? Can he give us an example???
-=-=-=-
I don't know if I am ever going to be able to
convince him. At this point my daughter and I are both willing to
compromise and do some "school work" to keep him comfortable.
-=-=-=-
It's nice that you're willing to go outsid eyour comfort zone for him.
Is he not willing to do that for you?
-=-=-=-=-
We are both sad about it though.
-=-=-=-=-
I think that's the clincher. Does he not care?
-=-=-=-=-
I am not used to having to compromise
when it comes to parenting stuff. I've always done what I want and
it's hard for me to have to take someone else's comfort level into
consideration. To be honest I don't really like it.
-=-=-=-=-
An absent father shouldn't have much say. I realize he's about to be
"present"---but he needs to trust you as he has her whole life up to
this point. I'm not sure how much he can complain---seriously! Is he
unhappy how she's turned out? Have you done a bad job? He can't trust
you to make wise decisions concerning your daughter???
-=-=-=-=-
I like him though and he is actually her father so I guess I'll have to
figure
it out.
-=-=-=-=-
Is he willing to learn more? Or has he shut down to learning new
things? If he *has* shut down, maybe that's something to point out to
him. *I* wouldn't want my children refusing to learn something that was
so important to *their* children's lives.
When people refuse to do the research on unschooling, it simply proves
my point: they've quit learning---and that is one of the HUGE things
I'm trying to avoid through unschooling! I want my kids to always love
to learn!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Deb
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
course, that was AFTER we fell in love with sushi at a local
restaurant and sat at the sushi bar (instead of the tables) so we
could watch the chefs at work.
--Deb
> If you wanted information on making sushi, would't the best placeOr, you could get the Sushi for Dummies book like we did :-) Of
>to go
> for information BE to people who make sushi?
>
course, that was AFTER we fell in love with sushi at a local
restaurant and sat at the sushi bar (instead of the tables) so we
could watch the chefs at work.
--Deb
Erica Iwamura
He should know that you would do nothing to endanger or hinder your own
children's learning
This is a very important point that Kelly made. We have been unschooling
for only a couple months. I honestly just started reading websites and
reading books on unschooling. Dh saw me reading them and never said
anything. He just observed (he's also an engineer so he is also the
detailed analytical kind of guy). I never said "hey, we're unschooling
now". He just saw me reading (LOTS) and absorbing all I could about it.
He asked me one day a couple weeks ago.. "so, are you unschooling the boys
now?" to which I replied "ummm, yeah" and he tells me that he has been
reading about it and that "it seems like a pretty good thing as long as you
stay on top of it" (meaning strewing and leading a rich life.. not benign
neglect that I have read about where people don't interact with their kids
at all and call it unschooling). All he asked was that I just tell him what
we do during the day so that he can see and hear about the connections too.
I started a blog that he can look at and I update it just about daily for
him to see. He sees lots of pictures on it of our day and he sees the kids
SHINE in the pics and the words that I write. He sees connections being
made everyday and when he comes home at night he hears about all the fun and
cool things we did that day when the boys tell him about their day. He
doesn't come home to kids who have been sitting at a table doing math and
phonics during the day and have lost their love of learning already at this
young age. He comes home to children who are excited about learning and
life and that ask lots of questions.
I guess my point is that he saw that I was passionate about it and he took
it upon himself to learn more about it and to want to learn about what I was
so interested in and to CONNECT with me in that way. He knows how much I
love the boys and that I want the best for them and that if I believe SO
MUCH that this is best for them, then there must be something to it.
Erica
--
They say I'm Crazy but I Have a Good Time - Joe Walsh
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children's learning
This is a very important point that Kelly made. We have been unschooling
for only a couple months. I honestly just started reading websites and
reading books on unschooling. Dh saw me reading them and never said
anything. He just observed (he's also an engineer so he is also the
detailed analytical kind of guy). I never said "hey, we're unschooling
now". He just saw me reading (LOTS) and absorbing all I could about it.
He asked me one day a couple weeks ago.. "so, are you unschooling the boys
now?" to which I replied "ummm, yeah" and he tells me that he has been
reading about it and that "it seems like a pretty good thing as long as you
stay on top of it" (meaning strewing and leading a rich life.. not benign
neglect that I have read about where people don't interact with their kids
at all and call it unschooling). All he asked was that I just tell him what
we do during the day so that he can see and hear about the connections too.
I started a blog that he can look at and I update it just about daily for
him to see. He sees lots of pictures on it of our day and he sees the kids
SHINE in the pics and the words that I write. He sees connections being
made everyday and when he comes home at night he hears about all the fun and
cool things we did that day when the boys tell him about their day. He
doesn't come home to kids who have been sitting at a table doing math and
phonics during the day and have lost their love of learning already at this
young age. He comes home to children who are excited about learning and
life and that ask lots of questions.
I guess my point is that he saw that I was passionate about it and he took
it upon himself to learn more about it and to want to learn about what I was
so interested in and to CONNECT with me in that way. He knows how much I
love the boys and that I want the best for them and that if I believe SO
MUCH that this is best for them, then there must be something to it.
Erica
--
They say I'm Crazy but I Have a Good Time - Joe Walsh
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Deb <debra.rossing@...>
Or, you could get the Sushi for Dummies book like we did :-) Of
course, that was AFTER we fell in love with sushi at a local
restaurant and sat at the sushi bar (instead of the tables) so we
could watch the chefs at work.
-=-=-=-=
Right---but you DID NOT go to the local French restaurant and ask the
chef there (who hates sushi) how to make it! <BWG>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: Deb <debra.rossing@...>
Or, you could get the Sushi for Dummies book like we did :-) Of
course, that was AFTER we fell in love with sushi at a local
restaurant and sat at the sushi bar (instead of the tables) so we
could watch the chefs at work.
-=-=-=-=
Right---but you DID NOT go to the local French restaurant and ask the
chef there (who hates sushi) how to make it! <BWG>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Deb
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
Dummies book ... and the fact that it even exists!
--Deb
>Yeah, I know <BWG> But I couldn't resist - we love the Sushi for
> Right---but you DID NOT go to the local French restaurant and ask
>the > chef there (who hates sushi) how to make it! <BWG>
>
Dummies book ... and the fact that it even exists!
--Deb
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Erica Iwamura"
<hakujin777@...> wrote:
doesn't have the chance to be home during the day. George is not
a "reader", never really researched unschooling, so seeing
unschooling happening has been really important for him in terms of
understanding how it "works". He's often home for lunch, though and
even other times of the day if work is slow (he's self employed), so
he has an advantage a lot of partners don't in that regard. He
doens't need to go look at the blog to find out what the kids are up
to ;) Its still a great tool for communicating with the
grandparents, though. They can talk to the kids w'o falling back
on "what are you learning about in homeschool?".
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<hakujin777@...> wrote:
>> All he asked was that I just tell him whatconnections too.
> we do during the day so that he can see and hear about the
> I started a blog that he can look at and I update it just aboutdaily for
> him to see. He sees lots of pictures on it of our day and he seesthe kids
> SHINE in the pics and the words that I write. He sees connectionsbeing
> made everyday and when he comes home at night he hears about allthe fun and
> cool things we did that day when the boys tell him about their day.This sort of connection can be soooo important to a partner who
doesn't have the chance to be home during the day. George is not
a "reader", never really researched unschooling, so seeing
unschooling happening has been really important for him in terms of
understanding how it "works". He's often home for lunch, though and
even other times of the day if work is slow (he's self employed), so
he has an advantage a lot of partners don't in that regard. He
doens't need to go look at the blog to find out what the kids are up
to ;) Its still a great tool for communicating with the
grandparents, though. They can talk to the kids w'o falling back
on "what are you learning about in homeschool?".
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Ren Allen
~~He sees connections being made everyday and when he comes home at
night he hears about all the fun and cool things we did that day when
the boys tell him about their day.~~
This is so important.
For anyone with a reluctant spouse, the above should be your assignment!
I found that all the debating, discussing and pontificating did very
little to convince my spouse of anything unschooling related years
ago. What worked best? LIVING it.
As we joyfully lived our lives and gushed to him about our wonderful
days, he slowly GOT IT.
If you have a reluctant spouse, try not to gripe about the kids or
your day. The more you focus on the happy parts, the better off you'll
all be anyway. It doesn't mean you won't get tired, or frustrated or
whatever...but avoid telling about those feelings as though anyone
else is to blame. Talk about how beautiful, how smart, how interesting
your kids are...because they ARE. As YOU see the good stuff, as YOU
joyfully learn with your children, the reluctant spouse will begin to
warm up.
It works! Really.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
night he hears about all the fun and cool things we did that day when
the boys tell him about their day.~~
This is so important.
For anyone with a reluctant spouse, the above should be your assignment!
I found that all the debating, discussing and pontificating did very
little to convince my spouse of anything unschooling related years
ago. What worked best? LIVING it.
As we joyfully lived our lives and gushed to him about our wonderful
days, he slowly GOT IT.
If you have a reluctant spouse, try not to gripe about the kids or
your day. The more you focus on the happy parts, the better off you'll
all be anyway. It doesn't mean you won't get tired, or frustrated or
whatever...but avoid telling about those feelings as though anyone
else is to blame. Talk about how beautiful, how smart, how interesting
your kids are...because they ARE. As YOU see the good stuff, as YOU
joyfully learn with your children, the reluctant spouse will begin to
warm up.
It works! Really.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Deb Lewis
***how long has unschooling been around?***
***Since humans have roamed the planet and before. Even Neaderthals
learned!***
Yes, learning is so easy, even cave men did it. <g>
Shell beads found in Algeria and Israel have been dated to 100,000 years
ago, well before there were jewelry makings schools. <g>
The stunning Chauvet drawings were created between 29,700 and 32,400 years
ago long before there were art schools. <g>
Signs carved in tortoise shell, found in China were written down in the
Stone age or Neolithic age, predating the previous earliest writings by two
thousand years, well before there were writing schools.<g>
HEY! This is fun!
Archeologists have found pottery dating back 13,000 years, many, many years
before there were pottery schools.
The first known sewing needle, found in France, is about 25,000 years old,
some considerable time before there were sewing schools.
There is some evidence that people had discovered a way to weave cloth and
baskets as early as 27,000 years ago, before there were weaving studios or,
well, looms. <g>
There seems to be no shortage of evidence that humans learn.
Deb Lewis
***Since humans have roamed the planet and before. Even Neaderthals
learned!***
Yes, learning is so easy, even cave men did it. <g>
Shell beads found in Algeria and Israel have been dated to 100,000 years
ago, well before there were jewelry makings schools. <g>
The stunning Chauvet drawings were created between 29,700 and 32,400 years
ago long before there were art schools. <g>
Signs carved in tortoise shell, found in China were written down in the
Stone age or Neolithic age, predating the previous earliest writings by two
thousand years, well before there were writing schools.<g>
HEY! This is fun!
Archeologists have found pottery dating back 13,000 years, many, many years
before there were pottery schools.
The first known sewing needle, found in France, is about 25,000 years old,
some considerable time before there were sewing schools.
There is some evidence that people had discovered a way to weave cloth and
baskets as early as 27,000 years ago, before there were weaving studios or,
well, looms. <g>
There seems to be no shortage of evidence that humans learn.
Deb Lewis
Cameron Parham
He wants the good, the bad and the ugly of unschooling. He also wants
the information to be unbiased. So he doesnt want information from
unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who are
totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.
OK, being new to unschooling, I could share my decision-making process. There aren't many neutral parties because those who have any interest in the topic of education of any sort have strong opinions on how best to do it. Neutral parties aren't interested enough to have opinions about it. Still, a balanced assessment of any important life decision is a worthy goal. So how to go about it? When I was comparing schooling at home with schooling at school, I discovered that I could only find people who felt that I was terrible to homeschool and people who thought I was terrible not to homeschool!
First I think we must look at our own family, and what we want for our family. Is what we are doing now working? If not what would we like to see change? What societal trends feel right or wrong to us? If there is a spouse, what is important to them? Are our children happy, secure, and is there a sense of harmony in our lives and our home?
Well, those are only some of the questions I faced. Since most material written about this is biased, get a cross-section of material. Explore the early foundations of how children (really all people) learn. Read the writings of reaserchers; to that end get names of authors. Read internet web sites. Read books. Talk to your kids. Watch them.
While carrying out this process, think, meditate, pray. Explore your deep-seated biases, and very importantly, your fears. Only thus can you prevent these issues from controlling your decision in ways you don't realize. And very importantly, remeber that if you are exploring alternatives,you must see a reason for change. Don't expect alternatives to be held up against a standard of perfection. The alternative should be better than what you are doing now, but probably cannot be perfect. No parental choice can spare most of us from late-night soul searching, regrets, etc.
I could suggest readings that helped me decide homeschooling was for us, and later that unschooling was for us. Email me offlist if you want some of this info. I do actually know of some stats about research on homeschooled kids in general, regardless of the type of homeschooling followed. But remember that public and private schools are well known to have failed our society and our kids in many ways, and as one reply said, be aware of those 'stats' too!
As another reply said, the person with concerns has got to be willing to read this stuff for it to have any value. There is plenty of evidence that unschooling is consistent with reaserch-confirmed patterns of effective human learning.
I hope this makes sense. I know it's just my journey (and only a tiny part of it). Maybe it doesn't fit for anyone else. Hope it's not too long or rambling! Cameron, a newbie still...for sure!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the information to be unbiased. So he doesnt want information from
unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who are
totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.
OK, being new to unschooling, I could share my decision-making process. There aren't many neutral parties because those who have any interest in the topic of education of any sort have strong opinions on how best to do it. Neutral parties aren't interested enough to have opinions about it. Still, a balanced assessment of any important life decision is a worthy goal. So how to go about it? When I was comparing schooling at home with schooling at school, I discovered that I could only find people who felt that I was terrible to homeschool and people who thought I was terrible not to homeschool!
First I think we must look at our own family, and what we want for our family. Is what we are doing now working? If not what would we like to see change? What societal trends feel right or wrong to us? If there is a spouse, what is important to them? Are our children happy, secure, and is there a sense of harmony in our lives and our home?
Well, those are only some of the questions I faced. Since most material written about this is biased, get a cross-section of material. Explore the early foundations of how children (really all people) learn. Read the writings of reaserchers; to that end get names of authors. Read internet web sites. Read books. Talk to your kids. Watch them.
While carrying out this process, think, meditate, pray. Explore your deep-seated biases, and very importantly, your fears. Only thus can you prevent these issues from controlling your decision in ways you don't realize. And very importantly, remeber that if you are exploring alternatives,you must see a reason for change. Don't expect alternatives to be held up against a standard of perfection. The alternative should be better than what you are doing now, but probably cannot be perfect. No parental choice can spare most of us from late-night soul searching, regrets, etc.
I could suggest readings that helped me decide homeschooling was for us, and later that unschooling was for us. Email me offlist if you want some of this info. I do actually know of some stats about research on homeschooled kids in general, regardless of the type of homeschooling followed. But remember that public and private schools are well known to have failed our society and our kids in many ways, and as one reply said, be aware of those 'stats' too!
As another reply said, the person with concerns has got to be willing to read this stuff for it to have any value. There is plenty of evidence that unschooling is consistent with reaserch-confirmed patterns of effective human learning.
I hope this makes sense. I know it's just my journey (and only a tiny part of it). Maybe it doesn't fit for anyone else. Hope it's not too long or rambling! Cameron, a newbie still...for sure!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
Hello,
Long-time lurker, don't think I've posted here before. I have two
daughters, ages 5 and 4, and my SAHM wife unschools them. And we're both
quite happy so far.
Sorry to come in so late on this, but I have a bit to throw in.
trying to delegate such a huge task onto you, he may be hoping that you'll
just drop it. And unschooling altogether. If he was like me, then he may
be scared of it, and is reacting out of his own fear rather than as a
deliberate plot to sabotage you. Instead of a true debate tactic, it
becomes a defense mechanism.
Short answer #2: No, not in the way he wants. Logistical nightmare. What
he's asking for is a research study. For details, see below. (There might
be an acceptable alternative, which I'll mention at the end.)
Long answer: What he wants he can't have, and it's unfair of him to demand
this of you. The only way he's going to get that information is for someone
to have done a long-term research study. This study would have to identify
a large enough sampling of adults who were "unschooled," and/or to identify
children of various ages who are currently being unschooled (or some subset
thereof) and follow them through to adulthood, whether or not they choose to
go through college. This study must also be able to identify all the ratios
and demographics he's wanting to know from the above population samples, a
task that is difficult by itself. And there are myriad other
considerations.
IF you can find someone who has done this research, THEN you must find out
WHO FINANCED the study. As unschooling is gaining steam, there are many who
react violently against it. The NEA, your local public school who (at least
here in Texas) gets money for each kid in a seat at the school, and many
homeschoolers who practice full-fledged school at home. When someone has
performed a "study," it does not mean that it is unbiased. Research takes
money. Follow the money.
"Research" merely means that (a) information was gathered according to an
agreed-upon set of rules, and (b) the biases are more subtle and in a
particular form that may be difficult to identify. Studies can be flawed.
Perhaps the study's questions may be biased, or the population sample wasn't
random enough, and many other things. Unfortunately, when the word "study"
pops up next to an opinion, then that's good enough for many. They feel
they can stop thinking and let it go, since someone else has done more
thinking on it than they themselves were willing to put into it, AND it puts
the onerous on me to challenge the study ("Well, back in '04, this group did
this study where they found that blahblah-counter to your opinion and
they're smarter than you blahblahblah,...").
POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE:
Blogs. There is one father I met at an unschooling conference who has his
own blog. His blog is about lots of stuff, but unschooling his kids is one
of them. He was initially skeptical, until he LIVED it, and his kids LIVED
it. Since Dads like to pretend to be the analytical ones (I know, I are one
-- :-) ), he might be softened a bit if he reads another dad's account of
being skeptical, his analyses, and finally becoming OK. (If it's OK to post
the blog link here, I'll see if I can find it.)
POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE #2 (not as good, IMHO):
AND, if you're feeling ESPECIALLY generous with him, and IF you feel like
doing research, then do this (and I won't blame you if you say, "Heck-fire,
Uncle Jed, YOU'RE NUTS!"): Find all the anti-unschooling information you can
find, and all the pro-unschooling info you can find. Line them up in dialog
form. Maybe even do it up like Galileo's *Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief
World Systems. *Back and forth so he can see all the arguments, pro and
con. BETTER YET, MAKE HIM GO AND FIND THIS OUT. I'm all for the "Why
should I spoon feed you?" attitude.*
*
Bottom Line: I believe no impartiality is to be found. If he'll come off
of that point, then you can assist HIM with HIS research.
--Rob Saxon
Husband to Seana for 10 years
Daddy to Genevieve (5) and Elissa (4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Long-time lurker, don't think I've posted here before. I have two
daughters, ages 5 and 4, and my SAHM wife unschools them. And we're both
quite happy so far.
Sorry to come in so late on this, but I have a bit to throw in.
> So he doesnt want information fromShort answer #1: Finding out that kind of info is a huge undertaking. By
> unschooling advocates nor does he want information from those who are
> totally opposed to it. He wants information from a neutral party.
>
> Is there such a thing?
trying to delegate such a huge task onto you, he may be hoping that you'll
just drop it. And unschooling altogether. If he was like me, then he may
be scared of it, and is reacting out of his own fear rather than as a
deliberate plot to sabotage you. Instead of a true debate tactic, it
becomes a defense mechanism.
Short answer #2: No, not in the way he wants. Logistical nightmare. What
he's asking for is a research study. For details, see below. (There might
be an acceptable alternative, which I'll mention at the end.)
Long answer: What he wants he can't have, and it's unfair of him to demand
this of you. The only way he's going to get that information is for someone
to have done a long-term research study. This study would have to identify
a large enough sampling of adults who were "unschooled," and/or to identify
children of various ages who are currently being unschooled (or some subset
thereof) and follow them through to adulthood, whether or not they choose to
go through college. This study must also be able to identify all the ratios
and demographics he's wanting to know from the above population samples, a
task that is difficult by itself. And there are myriad other
considerations.
IF you can find someone who has done this research, THEN you must find out
WHO FINANCED the study. As unschooling is gaining steam, there are many who
react violently against it. The NEA, your local public school who (at least
here in Texas) gets money for each kid in a seat at the school, and many
homeschoolers who practice full-fledged school at home. When someone has
performed a "study," it does not mean that it is unbiased. Research takes
money. Follow the money.
"Research" merely means that (a) information was gathered according to an
agreed-upon set of rules, and (b) the biases are more subtle and in a
particular form that may be difficult to identify. Studies can be flawed.
Perhaps the study's questions may be biased, or the population sample wasn't
random enough, and many other things. Unfortunately, when the word "study"
pops up next to an opinion, then that's good enough for many. They feel
they can stop thinking and let it go, since someone else has done more
thinking on it than they themselves were willing to put into it, AND it puts
the onerous on me to challenge the study ("Well, back in '04, this group did
this study where they found that blahblah-counter to your opinion and
they're smarter than you blahblahblah,...").
POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE:
Blogs. There is one father I met at an unschooling conference who has his
own blog. His blog is about lots of stuff, but unschooling his kids is one
of them. He was initially skeptical, until he LIVED it, and his kids LIVED
it. Since Dads like to pretend to be the analytical ones (I know, I are one
-- :-) ), he might be softened a bit if he reads another dad's account of
being skeptical, his analyses, and finally becoming OK. (If it's OK to post
the blog link here, I'll see if I can find it.)
POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE #2 (not as good, IMHO):
AND, if you're feeling ESPECIALLY generous with him, and IF you feel like
doing research, then do this (and I won't blame you if you say, "Heck-fire,
Uncle Jed, YOU'RE NUTS!"): Find all the anti-unschooling information you can
find, and all the pro-unschooling info you can find. Line them up in dialog
form. Maybe even do it up like Galileo's *Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief
World Systems. *Back and forth so he can see all the arguments, pro and
con. BETTER YET, MAKE HIM GO AND FIND THIS OUT. I'm all for the "Why
should I spoon feed you?" attitude.*
*
Bottom Line: I believe no impartiality is to be found. If he'll come off
of that point, then you can assist HIM with HIS research.
--Rob Saxon
Husband to Seana for 10 years
Daddy to Genevieve (5) and Elissa (4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
Oh, I forgot.
an earful there, whether or not it's based in reality. Just remember that
they have monetary reasons to dislike ANY form of homeschooling.
Anyone I've spoken with about unschooling who was not familiar with it
already labels it as irresponsible, at best. I'm betting that you're going
to have a difficult time finding someone who is well-informed about
unschooling and is also against it. Most pro-schoolers I know simply lump
in "irresponsible" and "dangerous" with all the other criticisms against
homeschooling (lack of social skills, e.g.) when they hear about
unschooling. Good luck.
--Rob Saxon
Husband to Seana for 10 years
Daddy to Genevieve (5) and Elissa (4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Where can I hear about the good, the bad and the ugly sides ofGo to your local public school and just ask about HOMEschooling. You'll get
> unschooling?
an earful there, whether or not it's based in reality. Just remember that
they have monetary reasons to dislike ANY form of homeschooling.
Anyone I've spoken with about unschooling who was not familiar with it
already labels it as irresponsible, at best. I'm betting that you're going
to have a difficult time finding someone who is well-informed about
unschooling and is also against it. Most pro-schoolers I know simply lump
in "irresponsible" and "dangerous" with all the other criticisms against
homeschooling (lack of social skills, e.g.) when they hear about
unschooling. Good luck.
--Rob Saxon
Husband to Seana for 10 years
Daddy to Genevieve (5) and Elissa (4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
amshotwell
Hope you don't mind me posting this article. It was posted on one of
my other boards. Although it is not promoting unschooling or even
homeschooling, I think it totally promotes unschooling unconsciously.
I thought it had some nice points that may help some of the people
on fact finding missions (such as myself) that are trying to convince
a partner that school is not the best place for their children. I
think curriculum based homeschoolers face these same issues this
teacher is talking about by putting undue pressure to perform at some
predetermined expectation of age and development.
http://www.homefires.com/click?letchildrenbechild.
Anne Marie
Let children be children
Is your 5-year-old stressed out because so much is expected?
Penelope H. Bevan
Sunday, June 3, 2007
I was watching one of my second-grade girls try unsuccessfully to tie
her shoes the other day, and I thought, "This is a person who is
supposed to be learning plural possessives?" I think not.
We've just finished test time again in the schools of California. The
mad frenzy of testing infects everyone from second grade through high
school. Because of the rigors and threats of No Child Left Behind,
schools are desperate to increase their scores. As the requirements
become more stringent, we have completely lost sight of the children
taking these tests.
For 30 years as a teacher of primary kids, I have operated on the Any
Fool Can See principle. And any fool can see that the spread between
what is developmentally appropriate for 7- and 8-year-old children and
what is demanded of them on these tests is widening. A lot of what
used to be in the first-grade curriculum is now taught in
kindergarten. Is your 5-year-old stressed out? Perhaps this is why.
Primary-grade children have only the most tenuous grasp on how the
world works. Having been alive only seven or eight years, they have
not figured out that in California there is a definite wet and dry
season. They live in high expectation that it will snow in the Bay
Area in the winter. They reasonably conclude, based on their limited
experience with words, that a thesaurus must be a dinosaur. When asked
to name some of the planets after he heard the word Earth, one of my
boys confidently replied, "Mars, Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter and Canada!"
to which a girl replied, "No, no, no, you gotta go way far outer than
that."
Research has shown that it takes approximately 24 repetitions of a new
concept to imprint on a young brain. The aforementioned plural
possessives come up twice in the curriculum, yet they are supposed to
know it when they see it. This is folly.
Currently, 2 1/2 uninterrupted hours are supposed to be devoted to
language arts and reading every morning. I ask you, what adult could
sustain an interest in one subject for that long? Yet the two reading
series adopted by the state for elementary education require that much
time be devoted to reading in the expectation that the scores will
shoot up eventually. Show me a 7-year-old who has that kind of
concentration. Show me a 64-year-old teacher who has it. Not I.
The result of this has been a decline in math scores at our school,
because the emphasis is on getting them to read and there isn't enough
time to fit in a proper curriculum. Early math education should rely
heavily on messing about with concrete materials of measurements,
mass, volume and length, and discovering basic principles through play.
There is no time for this. The teaching of art is all but a subversive
activity. Teachers whisper, "I taught art today!" as if they would be
reported to the Reading Police for stealing time from the reading
curriculum, which is what they did.
It is also First Communion time in second grade. Yes, I teach in a
public school, but First Communion happens in second grade, and it is
a big deal, the subject of much discussion in the classroom. The
children are excited.
A few months back one of my girls exclaimed, "Jeez, I have a lot to do
after school today, Teacher. I gotta do my homework, go to baseball
practice and get baptized." I laughed to myself at the priorities of
this little to-do list, so symbolic of the life of one second-grader.
But there was a much larger issue here. What is happening to their
souls? You may ask, what business it is of the schools what is
happening to the souls of these little children?
I will tell you. Any fool can see that those setting the standards for
testing of primary-grade children haven't been around any actual
children in a long time. The difference between what one can
reasonably expect an 8-year-old to know and what is merely a party
trick grows exponentially on these state tests.
Meanwhile, children who know they are bright and can read well are
proved wrong time and again because of the structure of these tests.
Teachers spend inordinate amounts of time trying to teach the children
to be careful of the quirky tricks of the tests when they should be
simply teaching how to get on in the world.
Twenty years ago, I had a conference with a parent, a Sikh, whose
child was brilliant. I was prepared to show him all her academic work,
but he brushed it aside and said, "Yes, yes, I know she is quite
smart, but I want to know how her soul is developing."
The present emphasis on testing and test scores is sucking the soul
out of the primary school experience for both teachers and children.
So much time is spent on testing and measuring reading speed that the
children are losing the joy that comes but once in their lifetime, the
happy messiness of paint, clay, Tinkertoys and jumping rope, the quiet
discovery of a shiny new book of interest to them, the wonders of a
magnifying glass. The teachers around them, under constant pressure to
raise those test scores, radiate urgency and pressure. Their smiles
are grim. They are not enjoying their jobs.
Our children need parents and teachers who, like Hamlet, know a hawk
from a hand saw, who know foolishness when they see it and are strong
enough to defend these small souls from the onslaught of escalating
developmentally inappropriate claptrap. The great unspoken secret of
primary school is that a lot of what is going on is arrant nonsense,
and it's getting worse. Any fool can see.
my other boards. Although it is not promoting unschooling or even
homeschooling, I think it totally promotes unschooling unconsciously.
I thought it had some nice points that may help some of the people
on fact finding missions (such as myself) that are trying to convince
a partner that school is not the best place for their children. I
think curriculum based homeschoolers face these same issues this
teacher is talking about by putting undue pressure to perform at some
predetermined expectation of age and development.
http://www.homefires.com/click?letchildrenbechild.
Anne Marie
Let children be children
Is your 5-year-old stressed out because so much is expected?
Penelope H. Bevan
Sunday, June 3, 2007
I was watching one of my second-grade girls try unsuccessfully to tie
her shoes the other day, and I thought, "This is a person who is
supposed to be learning plural possessives?" I think not.
We've just finished test time again in the schools of California. The
mad frenzy of testing infects everyone from second grade through high
school. Because of the rigors and threats of No Child Left Behind,
schools are desperate to increase their scores. As the requirements
become more stringent, we have completely lost sight of the children
taking these tests.
For 30 years as a teacher of primary kids, I have operated on the Any
Fool Can See principle. And any fool can see that the spread between
what is developmentally appropriate for 7- and 8-year-old children and
what is demanded of them on these tests is widening. A lot of what
used to be in the first-grade curriculum is now taught in
kindergarten. Is your 5-year-old stressed out? Perhaps this is why.
Primary-grade children have only the most tenuous grasp on how the
world works. Having been alive only seven or eight years, they have
not figured out that in California there is a definite wet and dry
season. They live in high expectation that it will snow in the Bay
Area in the winter. They reasonably conclude, based on their limited
experience with words, that a thesaurus must be a dinosaur. When asked
to name some of the planets after he heard the word Earth, one of my
boys confidently replied, "Mars, Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter and Canada!"
to which a girl replied, "No, no, no, you gotta go way far outer than
that."
Research has shown that it takes approximately 24 repetitions of a new
concept to imprint on a young brain. The aforementioned plural
possessives come up twice in the curriculum, yet they are supposed to
know it when they see it. This is folly.
Currently, 2 1/2 uninterrupted hours are supposed to be devoted to
language arts and reading every morning. I ask you, what adult could
sustain an interest in one subject for that long? Yet the two reading
series adopted by the state for elementary education require that much
time be devoted to reading in the expectation that the scores will
shoot up eventually. Show me a 7-year-old who has that kind of
concentration. Show me a 64-year-old teacher who has it. Not I.
The result of this has been a decline in math scores at our school,
because the emphasis is on getting them to read and there isn't enough
time to fit in a proper curriculum. Early math education should rely
heavily on messing about with concrete materials of measurements,
mass, volume and length, and discovering basic principles through play.
There is no time for this. The teaching of art is all but a subversive
activity. Teachers whisper, "I taught art today!" as if they would be
reported to the Reading Police for stealing time from the reading
curriculum, which is what they did.
It is also First Communion time in second grade. Yes, I teach in a
public school, but First Communion happens in second grade, and it is
a big deal, the subject of much discussion in the classroom. The
children are excited.
A few months back one of my girls exclaimed, "Jeez, I have a lot to do
after school today, Teacher. I gotta do my homework, go to baseball
practice and get baptized." I laughed to myself at the priorities of
this little to-do list, so symbolic of the life of one second-grader.
But there was a much larger issue here. What is happening to their
souls? You may ask, what business it is of the schools what is
happening to the souls of these little children?
I will tell you. Any fool can see that those setting the standards for
testing of primary-grade children haven't been around any actual
children in a long time. The difference between what one can
reasonably expect an 8-year-old to know and what is merely a party
trick grows exponentially on these state tests.
Meanwhile, children who know they are bright and can read well are
proved wrong time and again because of the structure of these tests.
Teachers spend inordinate amounts of time trying to teach the children
to be careful of the quirky tricks of the tests when they should be
simply teaching how to get on in the world.
Twenty years ago, I had a conference with a parent, a Sikh, whose
child was brilliant. I was prepared to show him all her academic work,
but he brushed it aside and said, "Yes, yes, I know she is quite
smart, but I want to know how her soul is developing."
The present emphasis on testing and test scores is sucking the soul
out of the primary school experience for both teachers and children.
So much time is spent on testing and measuring reading speed that the
children are losing the joy that comes but once in their lifetime, the
happy messiness of paint, clay, Tinkertoys and jumping rope, the quiet
discovery of a shiny new book of interest to them, the wonders of a
magnifying glass. The teachers around them, under constant pressure to
raise those test scores, radiate urgency and pressure. Their smiles
are grim. They are not enjoying their jobs.
Our children need parents and teachers who, like Hamlet, know a hawk
from a hand saw, who know foolishness when they see it and are strong
enough to defend these small souls from the onslaught of escalating
developmentally inappropriate claptrap. The great unspoken secret of
primary school is that a lot of what is going on is arrant nonsense,
and it's getting worse. Any fool can see.